Grey Flannel Auction on ebay ......

[mchmaj]

would like to know what u guys think of the auction that grey flannel listed on ebay ...


***CONTENT REMOVED- IRRESPONSIBLE POST****

thanks !!
marcus

[trsent]

Marcus, I am concerned if the items in question are genuine, but you emailed the seller Friday and are upset there has been no reply over a 3-day holiday weekend?

What research did you conduct for the Bush and Theismann jerseys? Do you have photographic evidence and what history do you have of Joe Theismann's jersey size preferences?

Do you have photographic reference for the Theismann nameplate? I'd post those on here to show your issues to help your cause instead of just mentioning that you do not like an item.

[jerseys12]

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/52214747.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE95EEF7DFE5BE08DF

[jerseys12]

The Reggie Bush is perfect.

[mchmaj]

The Reggie Bush is perfect.
emailed seller wedensday or thursday so no excuse :)
are u sure reggie bush jersey is perfect ???
heres picture and tell me HOW .....
thanks :)
marcus

[mchmaj]

what about this one ... theismann
heres picture from getty the numbers seem be closer to nameplate while getty shows differently ..
http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/56403618.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=9A34F019EB81A3C61FBE1BDB26F40FED

[mchmaj]

heres picture from grey flannel auction on ebay
pre 1984 the redskins worn fishnet mesh style...
thiesmann worn this style only in 1985 and his leg ended his football era ...

[mchmaj]

HOWEVER some of grey flannel's game jerseys are real game used jerseys and etc
just ***content removed- irresponsible allegations with no proof***


marcus

[sportscentury]

Marcus,

Thanks for your posts and for sharing your opinion. I'm not writing to say that you are wrong or right ... I admittedly know little about football jerseys. I am writing to ask if you are sure that Grey Flannel got your message. I ask this because they pulled their 1977 Carlton road gamer after I pointed out that it had a nameplate restoration. Also, they very quickly refunded a buyer's money on a Mike Schmidt hat that Howard Wolf proved to be inaccurately represented. My point is that it appears to me that, at least in recent days, Grey Flannel is being very open to evidence from collectors regarding authenticity and that they are resolving problems with little to no opposition. Perhaps Joel (who normally offers help in these situations) or you could give them a call. I think they are working hard to hear collectors out and do the right thing, and I think that this practice should be encouraged and supported by collectors and forum members.

Reid

[jerseys12]

Look at your picture, and then look at this picture...

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/51628956.jpg?v=1&c=MS_GINS&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE6F9F7BAD36078652

Clearly, there is a difference in the length between the collar and number 5 from the photo you chose and this photo. This photo just so happens to match up with the one in the GF auction, and your does not.

[jerseys12]

Like I said earlier, this Reggie Bush game worn jersey is PERFECT in every way. However, your statements are not.

[sportscentury]

Jerseys12,

None of your photos are showing up. Can you check your system and repost? Thanks,

Reid

[jerseys12]

Bush pics

[jerseys12]

Heres the first one I posted

[mchmaj]

Heres the first one I posted
its not from 2005 season as it culd be from his freshmen or sophomore year

[jerseys12]

You went from saying..."stay away from reggie bush usc game jersey, the front #5 is placed way far from the collar" to it must be from another season, which would be a simple error in the year on GF's listing department.

Like I said, this Reggie Bush jersey is PERFECT in every way. The finest one to hit the market.

[Eric]

Jerseys12-

Are you the consignor of the jersey or do you work for Grey Flannel? You seem to have specific knowledge of the jersey by saying, "Like I said, this Reggie Bush jersey is PERFECT in every way. The finest one to hit the market."

Thanks
Eric

[mchmaj]

Jerseys12-

Are you the consignor of the jersey or do you work for Grey Flannel? You seem to have specific knowledge of the jersey by saying, "Like I said, this Reggie Bush jersey is PERFECT in every way. The finest one to hit the market."

Thanks
Eric

it is not OKAY to MISLEAD the information about the jersey beacuse 2005 is when reggie bush won heisman so prices will be different so GF need to change from 2005 to 2004 because the jersey seem is from 2004 season however the marks doesnt match from getty picture to the jersey that GF is selling .....

[jerseys12]

I am a usc collector, and I can tell you that this jersey is PERFECT. I will be bidding on it.

[Eric]

but how can you make the statement that it's "the finest to hit the market."

seems like an odd statement to make if you have not seen the item in person. or have you seen it in person? if so, how?

please also address the questions i sent you regarding your contact information that i sent you in the last email.

thanks
eric

[LHG39]

I sent them a message about lot
215: 1973 Willie Mays Mets BP Worn & Signed Jersey

I do not recall the Mets ever wearing a blue batting pratice jersey until the early 80s. I sent GF a message to this effect with mo response. I very sincerely doubt this is a 1973 Batting Practice worn jersey. It is almost certainly a coaches jersey from spring training in the early 80s!

[trsent]

I sent them a message about lot
215: 1973 Willie Mays Mets BP Worn & Signed Jersey

I do not recall the Mets ever wearing a blue batting pratice jersey until the early 80s. I sent GF a message to this effect with mo response. I very sincerely doubt this is a 1973 Batting Practice worn jersey. It is almost certainly a coaches jersey from spring training in the early 80s!

Do you have any photos to back up your claim?

[both-teams-played-hard]

Willie was banned from baseball from 1979-1985.

Did Mays EVER work as a coach for the Mets. EVER?

When did MLB players start wearing BP jerseys?

[both-teams-played-hard]

The Mets used this blue knit as an alternate style game jersey in 1982, 1983, and 1984.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Did Mays EVER work as a coach for the Mets. EVER?



Mays did indeed work as a coach for the Mets from 1974-1979. The Mets did not wear this style game jersey during those years. I would still like to know the history of BP jerseys.

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8881/metsmaysnu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Willie's batting practice jersey (1973)

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/9196/metsmays2wf4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
GFC's batting practice jersey

[both-teams-played-hard]

I apologize for the chronic posting....GOOGLE rules the world!
cut&pasted from ultimatemets.com:

1981
The Mets begin to use "batting practice jerseys," also referred to at the time as "warmups." ("Batting practice jerseys" will not be extensively documented, as they are not part of the "game" uniform, and there have been so many variations over the years that it would take up an undue amount of space to document each variation and design. Nevertheless, it is significant to note when teams began using them regularly).

[nate]

The thread was opened on Sept 3rd and jerseys12 joined Sept 3rd to defend the jersey.......hmmmm.

[LHG39]

Do you have any photos to back up your claim?

Photos to back up my claim that this jersey is NOT from 1973? That would be kind of hard to prove a negative. Others have agreed with me that the Mets did not wear this style until the early 80s. If Willie was indeed banned until 1985 then this jersey probably is not even team issued. It is likely just a batting practice jersey made up to be a WIllie Mays and he autographed it.

I think it is extremely irresponsible for a company of the stature of GF to call this a circa 1973 jersey when it most definitely is not. Pure case of trying to take advantage of the uninformed.

[trsent]

Photos to back up my claim that this jersey is NOT from 1973? That would be kind of hard to prove a negative. Others have agreed with me that the Mets did not wear this style until the early 80s. If Willie was indeed banned until 1985 then this jersey probably is not even team issued. It is likely just a batting practice jersey made up to be a WIllie Mays and he autographed it.

I think it is extremely irresponsible for a company of the stature of GF to call this a circa 1973 jersey when it most definitely is not. Pure case of trying to take advantage of the uninformed.

So your claim is that Grey Flannel is intentionally selling this item misrepresented trying to defraud the public? You claim they are trying to take advantage of the uninformed, so I would think you are claiming they know the error and want to admit it.

I just figured if you could offer some evidence it would help the claim so maybe I can help you have the item pulled if evidence is shown to back up your claim.

[LHG39]

So your claim is that Grey Flannel is intentionally selling this item misrepresented trying to defraud the public? You claim they are trying to take advantage of the uninformed, so I would think you are claiming they know the error and want to admit it.

I just figured if you could offer some evidence it would help the claim so maybe I can help you have the item pulled if evidence is shown to back up your claim.

I would challenge GF to show me one picture of the mets wearing a Blue batting pratice jersey any time circa 1973. Shouldn't the onus be on them to show that this is a 1973 ish BP jersey. I have no recollection nor did I ever see the Mets wear a BP jersey prior to approximately 1981. If they did, then someone show a picture confirming it.

Perhaps the deception is not intentional. Maybe their thinking is "we got it from a reliable source, it looks authentic, Willie only played for the Mets in 1972 and 1973, so it must be circa 1973"

Maybe it is not intentional deception, but they certainly did no research on this one. Ask any Met fan around about this one.

[LHG39]

This is about the best source on Mets jerseys out there. It confirms my 1981 claim.

http://www.ultimatemets.com/uniforms.html

[nate]

1588
1981 style

1589
1982 style

1590
picture from spring 75

Was there another blue jersey in 75?

[LHG39]

1920
1981 style

1921
1982 style

1922
picture from spring 75

Was there another blue jersey in 75?

You cannot go by dates in Getty Images. They are notoriously inaccurate, especially for older images. Do you really think those images of Kingman are from Jan 1 1975 and Jan 1 1978? He wan't even traded to the Mets until Feb 1975. I am fairly certain that is really a picture from 1981.

[Eric]

Kingman played for the Mets in 75, 76, part of 77, 81, 82 and 83.

[trsent]

Usually, when a picture is dated January 1, 19XX on Getty, it is from that general era of that season. This is really becoming too much ado about nothing that has been proved to be in error except for personal opinions, which do not justify pulling the lot.

I understand the theory may be right, but proof is needed to back it up, not just views. Don't say "I challenge you, Grey Flannel, to photo-match the item." They won't help you there.

You brought up the issue, and you have to prove it wrong.

Then again, if you don't like it, don't buy it, right?

[both-teams-played-hard]

This is really becoming too much ado about nothing
Much "ado" about nothing? Joel that's your M.O.

Don't play the "don't like it-don't buy it" card...if that is your logic, then this forum ceases to exist. Did you see the photo I posted of Willie in pinstripes taking BP? Getty's dates are OFTEN wrong by years, not just days. The Mets didn't use Batting practice jerseys before 1981. THE FREAKING END.

[trsent]

Much "ado" about nothing? Joel that's your M.O.

Don't play the "don't like it-don't buy it" card...if that is your logic, then this forum ceases to exist. Did you see the photo I posted of Willie in pinstripes taking BP? Getty's dates are OFTEN wrong by years, not just days. The Mets didn't use Batting practice jerseys before 1981. THE FREAKING END.

Ok, so did you email Grey Flannel (who is traveling this weekend) to tell them to correct this item? I was asking for proof, but it doesn't appear to exist.

[kingjammy24]

if it helps any, bill henderson's guide states "1981 is the first year that the Mets are issued team BP jerseys". what a funny coincidence that several people who've studied mets jerseys all seem to be listing the exact same year.

rudy.

[hblakewolf]

BTPH-
Fantastic Homework, to say the least! You have clearly demonstrated that Willie was taking BP in a game jersey, as should be the case. The Mets began using BP's in 1981, 8 years after the BP in question could have been used.

Regardless of your facts, you wil continue to deal with those individuals on this Forum that will defend the major auction houses and large companies to their deaths, even when confronted with information such as yours. These folks have a deep vested interest, as they consign items and feel they can't afford to burn bridges or future sales. Some may call it good business, however, most call it simply spineless and pathetic.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[LHG39]

I am glad to see that many seem to agree with me on this one. My take is this, shoudln't GF have to be able to substantiate, to at least some degree, that this jersey is circa 1973? Why is the onus on me to disprive them, when I have limited resources other than my knowledge? How about they get a letter from the Mets? They are a pretty big operation, they should be able to do that if the jersey is legit, no? Currently they have no proff whatsoever and this jersey will likely go for several thousand dollars.

[CollectGU]

Howard,

That is hypocritical of you. when I confronted you about the Jeter Mizuno glove that you sold through Mastro, and asked you to provide some type of photo evidence that showed Jeter used a Mizuno glove in Japan, which I am convinced does not exist, you simply said to contact Dave Bushing and Mastro as you were told by them that he did. So, it's OK to question an item BUT not if it's your item which you sold for over $10,000.....

[CollectGU]

BTPH-

Regardless of your facts, you wil continue to deal with those individuals on this Forum that will defend the major auction houses and large companies to their deaths, even when confronted with information such as yours. These folks have a deep vested interest, as they consign items and feel they can't afford to burn bridges or future sales. Some may call it good business, however, most call it simply spineless and pathetic.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Howard,

That is hypocritical of you. when I confronted you about the Jeter Mizuno glove that you sold through Mastro, and asked you to provide some type of photo evidence that showed Jeter used a Mizuno glove in Japan, which I am convinced does not exist, you simply said to contact Dave Bushing and Mastro as you were told by them that he did. So, it's OK to question an item BUT not if it's your item which you sold for over $10,000.....

[TNTtoys]

The Mets used this blue knit as an alternate style game jersey in 1982, 1983, and 1984.


This is what I have learned in my research...

The Mets did not use this style as an alternate in 1982, 1983 and 1984. The batting practice jersey was often confused with the alternate blue. The differentiation was that the alternate blue game jersey had a blue stripe, the batting practice had a white stripe. Further, the alternate jersey was used only 1 year - 1982. Mitchell and Ness is selling a "1983 Seaver blue alternate" however, the year on this jersey is wrong. They sometimes get the year wrong...
The BP jersey with the orange-white-orange triple stripe did not originate until circa 1983-1984. In 1982-1983, the Mets wore a BP jersey with "NY" on the left chest. There were 2 versions of this jersey -- one with orange NY and one with silver NY. Again, Mitchell and Ness got it wrong with this jersey. They sell a "1984 Darryl Strawberry NY BP jersey" but by 1984, this jersey was not in production.

[LHG39]

This is what I have learned in my research...

The Mets did not use this style as an alternate in 1982, 1983 and 1984. The batting practice jersey was often confused with the alternate blue. The differentiation was that the alternate blue game jersey had a blue stripe, the batting practice had a white stripe. Further, the alternate jersey was used only 1 year - 1982. Mitchell and Ness is selling a "1983 Seaver blue alternate" however, the year on this jersey is wrong. They sometimes get the year wrong...
The BP jersey with the orange-white-orange triple stripe did not originate until circa 1983-1984. In 1982-1983, the Mets wore a BP jersey with "NY" on the left chest. There were 2 versions of this jersey -- one with orange NY and one with silver NY. Again, Mitchell and Ness got it wrong with this jersey. They sell a "1984 Darryl Strawberry NY BP jersey" but by 1984, this jersey was not in production.

You are incorrect. The Mets did wear that style in 1983. See the 2 Topps cards from the 1983 Topps traded sets. The Mets did wear these jerseys in 1983 (Seaver was not with them in 1982) and as you point out the BP jersey had the NY logo so these must be alts.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/mlshults/seaver01.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/mlshults/strawberry01.jpg

[LHG39]

Angelfire does not seem to like hotlinked images, so here is the link to click:

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/mlshults/seaver01.jpg

[TNTtoys]

You are incorrect. The Mets did wear that style in 1983. See the 2 Topps cards from the 1983 Topps traded sets. The Mets did wear these jerseys in 1983 (Seaver was not with them in 1982) and as you point out the BP jersey had the NY logo so these must be alts.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/mlshults/seaver01.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/mlshults/strawberry01.jpg

Then perhaps Mitchell and Ness only got the "NY" BP jersey wrong. This is fact, as I know personally the guy who supplied M&N the sample that they ultimately based their "1984 Strawberry BP jersey" on. He chuckles at the fact that despite all of the information he provided them, they still managed to botch the year.

The source of my 1982 information was the Ultimate Mets database
http://ultimatemets.com/uniforms.html

And I quote...
The Mets also add an alternate road jersey, only used in 1982. This jersey is a royal blue v-neck pullover with "Mets" in script (orange with gray outline) across the front on an upward slant. The jersey has three equal-width stripes (orange-blue-orange) at the collar and sleeve edges. This alternate road jersey has often been mistaken for the batting practice jersey the Mets were using at the time. The main factor that differentiates the two is the trim at the collar and sleeve edges: The batting practice jersey has an orange-white-orange triple stripe around the collar and sleeve edges, while the alternate road jersey has an orange-blue-orange triple stripe around the collar and sleeve edges.

Your photos did not come out above...
One question -- are you 100% certain the 1983 Topps traded cards show photos from the 1983 season? A lot of times, sets contain photos from the previous season.

You are correct that Seaver was not with the team in '82... but this is not exactly relevant. If M&N were to get a year wrong in a jersey, they still will choose to customize that jersey with a playet from that supposed year. Prime example is that "NY" BP jersey. Had they called it an '82, there was no Strawberry that year...

[TNTtoys]

Another interesting discrepancy with the paragraph from the Ultimate Mets database below... they state that the alternate blue jersey had ORANGE letters outlined in gray. The Mitchell & Ness version of this jersey, labeled '1983', contains gray letters outlined in orange.

http://www.mitchellandness.com/detail.aspx?ID=1543

Could there in fact be 2 different versions of the alternate blue jersey? An 82 and an 83???

[LHG39]

Yes, I have seen both versions, they do exist, but they wore worn rarely. Use this link to view the Seaver card http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/mlshults/seaver01.jpg

As he was not with the team in 1982, they MUST have worn the jersey that M&N makes during 1983. I believe this particular card is the basis for the M&N jersey.



Another interesting discrepancy with the paragraph from the Ultimate Mets database below... they state that the alternate blue jersey had ORANGE letters outlined in gray. The Mitchell & Ness version of this jersey, labeled '1983', contains gray letters outlined in orange.

http://www.mitchellandness.com/detail.aspx?ID=1543

Could there in fact be 2 different versions of the alternate blue jersey? An 82 and an 83???

[LHG39]

http://www.appelpr.com/IMAGES/TN-baseballsbest2.gif

Here is another picture from a book Seaver co-wrote. Sure looks like the M&N version to me!

[TNTtoys]

OK, confirmed... Mitchell and Ness's 1983 alternate blue is accurate. It contains gray letters bordered by orange, as well as three stripes on the sleeves - orange/white/orange.

The Ultimate Mets site speaks of a 1982 alternate blue jersey where the letters are orange bordered by gray as well as a different pattern for the sleeves including a blue stripe.

Is it plausible that there was a different alternate jersey (82)? If so, I wonder if we could find photos out there -- possibly a 1983 card would show it?

[TNTtoys]

I have just located 2 photos of cards that appear to have Mets in the 82 alt jersey. I have never noticed this particular style. There clearly is a blue stripe between the orange on the collar (and I would assume on the sleeves). The blue on the front of the jersey appears lighter than the usual.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-Donruss-301-DAVE-KINGMAN-NEW-YORK-METS_W0QQitemZ290021834195QQihZ019QQcategoryZ60513 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/1983-Brent-Gaff-Donruss-553-Mets_W0QQitemZ170006848939QQihZ007QQcategoryZ60513 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Looks like the error was one of omission of the '83 (the one that M&N reproduced w/ Seaver). The '82 appears to exist and is significantly different.

[trsent]

BTPH-
Fantastic Homework, to say the least! You have clearly demonstrated that Willie was taking BP in a game jersey, as should be the case. The Mets began using BP's in 1981, 8 years after the BP in question could have been used.

Regardless of your facts, you wil continue to deal with those individuals on this Forum that will defend the major auction houses and large companies to their deaths, even when confronted with information such as yours. These folks have a deep vested interest, as they consign items and feel they can't afford to burn bridges or future sales. Some may call it good business, however, most call it simply spineless and pathetic.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

Howard, you talk, but you are wrong.

I have not had a finical deal with Grey Flannel in over seven years.

Do your homework before opening your mouth because you are wrong once again. You assume, and you assumed WRONG.

I just asked for some proof to bring to them to help make a change.

[Eric]

I am a usc collector, and I can tell you that this jersey is PERFECT. I will be bidding on it.

Jerseys12-

You said you'd be bidding on the Reggie Bush jersey which was "perfect in every way" and "the finest one to hit the market"
Did you end up winning it? I didn't bid because you were so excited about it, I didn't want to outbid such a big USC fan who seemed so excited about this item.
Let us know.
Eric