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2OnBase
08-29-2006, 06:42 AM
Mike and Jim! I noticed on previous post about 73-75 Jackson bats that nothing was noted on the K75 Jackson bats as being previously ordered. Yet, it is described in the "Bats" book as being one he used. Are there any records for the K75's placed by Jackson and/or Team index bats? Thanks you for your help!

Rod Larson

MSpecht
08-29-2006, 01:41 PM
Hi Rod--

Sorry I did not see the follow-up question on the previous post.

During the 1973-75 label perion, there are no shipments of K75 bats documented as going to Reggie Jackson. He did, however, use K75 bats prior to 1973 and subsequent to 1975.

His first order of K75 was shipped on 4/20/67. Subsequent orders are documented in in each following year until 2/3/71. Thereafter, from 10/13/82 through 3/8/89, all orders of K75 Jackson signature model bats were shipped to Baseball Miscellaneous (usually without a specified weight), Baseball Promotions, or other promotional companies.

What happened that would cause Reggie to suddenly stop use (or orders) of a model that he had ordered frequently throughout his career up to early 1971? On 3/23/71 Jackson was shipped 6 model J93 bats -- J93 model bats were a new model, made at Jackson's request, that are documented in Jackson's personal factory records as "Model K75 with (illegible) off the barrel (new) model J93" Basically, Jackson modified a K75 bat to reduce the barrel size and come up with a bat that he preferred, which was designated J93, and which remained his model of preference through the remainder of his career.

Jim may have more specific information on Yankee team index orders in the 1973-75 label period. Given that many Jackson signature model K75 bats were sent to Baseball Miscellaneous over the years as noted above, it was most certainly used as an H & B pro stock model of Reggie Jackson's, and could likely have been included in team orders with Jackson's signature.

Here's an important tip. All of Jacksons K75 bats shipped for his professional use were in lengths of 35.5 inches ( 95% of the orders) and 35 inches ( 5% ). Models in later label periods shipped to Baseball Miscellaneous were always in 34.5 inch lengths, and one order to Ike Co. (promo) was 34 inches. Those dimensions may have been consistent with earlier (non-documented) Baseball Miscellaneous orders. Team orders, however, would have likely been in a variety of lengths as they were ordered for the use of any player in the organization.
Finally, yes, model K75 is referenced in the book BATS as a model used in the 1973-75 label period by Reggie Jackson. That information was later found to be in error when the H & B factory records became available. Here is a description of the basic research component that went into that book:

"The publishing of the book BATS -- PROFESSIONAL HILLERICH & BRADSBY AND ADIRONDACK 1950-1994 was completed in July, 1995 and the book debuted at the St. Louis National that year. The book was the first all-inclusive resource available to game used bat collectors. The information in the book was gathered from a Who's Who of Bat Collecting at the time, including, in addition to the authors (Vince Malta, Bill Riddell, Ron Fox, and Mike Specht), such people as Dave Bushing, Steve Terman, Michael Montbriand, John Taube, Stanley Kesselman, and Zane Burns. In addition to the resource it provided, the publication of the book was instrumental in uncovering the Holy Grail for bat collectors, the Hillerich & Bradsby factory records."

A more complete description may be found in the Expert's Corner on the Game Used Universe site at http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/blog/post.php?topic=151 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/blog/post.php?topic=151)

At the point of initial sale of the book, a sheet was inserted into each book noting approximately 10 errors that had been discovered after the book had gone to the publisher. Along with the error you found, one of the most frequent inclusions that is the source of questions is Carl Yaztrzemski's use of model K48 bats during his career.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

JimCaravello
08-29-2006, 05:48 PM
Hey guys - the Yankees Team Index records for the 70's that I have do not show any Jax models being ordered. The records have a lot of entries that read "See Index" which could refer to the fact that there are specific Index Records for those entries not listed on what I believe is the Master Index Records Card. Jim - jcaravello@nc.rr.com

2OnBase
09-01-2006, 02:37 AM
Thank you, gentlemen! A K75 1973-75 Jackson bat I have in my possesion is 34 7/8" x 32 ounces, cracked with a natural finish. Much of the finish is worn off on the left handed hitting surface which displays excellent use with seam impressions and checked wood. The wood also appears to be a little "dry" on the barrel from the years and use. No uniform number is on the knob or butt though. Reggie would have still been playing for the A's at this time, so the Team Index records, or lack there of, would be of interest to me if you find them. But assuming the lack or documentation for orders of this size of bat at this date of manufacture, what's your gut telling you and what cannot be ruled out? Are we finding another "hole" in the records? Thank you again for your work on this.

Rod

MSpecht
09-02-2006, 01:15 PM
Hi Rod--

Thanks for the follow-up info and questions. We do not have the A's team order records, and I mistakenly referred to the Yankees orders by not double checking team dates for Reggie....his 3 HRs in the Series just kind of led me to the Yankee.without stopping to think twice about it.

Regardless, to your question of "what is your best guess." I would say, without actually seeing the bat, that it is likely a Pro Stock model bat, as K75 is Reggie Jackson's Pro Stock model, ordered by the Oakland A's for use of their Major and Minor League players.

Pro Stock model bats are professional model bats, usually ordered by professional teams for their players at the Major or Minor League levels. What makes it confucing for collectors, however, is that a team, say Oakland, would consistently order K75 Reggie Jackson signature model bats to have on hand for their Major League position players, pitchers, and their affiliated Minor League teams and that some of those Pro Stock bats would be in dimensions, as luck would have it, that Jackson ordered for his professional use. More confusing in this situation, is that Jackson used the exact model in those dimensions in an earlier labeling period. Thus, in 1973-1975, Jackson had access to a model that he had previously ordered (documented), in dimensions he had previously used (documented), even though he personmally was not shipped K75 bats in that label period. Another common example of this situation occurs with Mickey Mantle K55 bats.

It becomes less problematic when the Pro Stock bat has dimensions extremely uncharacteristic of those documented ordered by the player.

Without seeing this specific bat, but assuming all labeling is consistent with professional model bats, I believe this bat would likely be authenticated as a professional model bat, manufactured for professional player use, undocumented in the factory records as having been ordered by the player whose name appears on the barrel (Reggie Jackson,) with use by an unknown player that cannot be specifically attributed to Reggie Jackson. One of the keys in this situation is the new model J93 made to Reggie Jackson's specifications in 1971, which was a modification of the K75 bat, following which there are no documented orders of K75 bats in Jackson's personal factory records for the remainder of his career.

I believe that team index bats are a financially reasonable alternative to bats that are fully documented in a player's personal H & B records, particularly when it comes to the higher priced bats in the hobby, as long as collectors fully understand what they are getting. I do not believe, as others apparently do, that fairly high prices being paid for Team Index bats in recent auctions indicate that there is a wide-spread acceptance of Team Index / Pro Stock bats as having likely attribution to the player whose name appears on the barrel. The more likely scenario is that an uninformed collector overpaid for a bat that is not fully documented in a player's personal factory records because he saw a high grade placed on the bat; he did not understand that the high grade was not the result of order or use by the player whose name was on the barrel, but was due instead to significant use of a pro model bat by an unknown player, batboy, or whomever.

Good Luck in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

2OnBase
09-11-2006, 02:11 AM
Thank you for your response, Mike. It is much appreciated. But, in difference to your comment, I am one who believes the prices for the index, off-label brands, older store model bats that meet length/weight/date/and model used, and some bats that fall into "holes" due to the lack of accurate records will continue to draw higher prices as "premium game bats" continue to escalate in price. These "lesser" bats are simply following the market of the premium type bats and I beleive in some cases, may be found to be more rare with regards to actual known numbers to exist.

Regarding potential use of a bat, outside of providing factually that these were professional models, it is difficult, if not impossible, to absolutely prove or disprove use in most cases....that is that the particular player did or did NOT use these bats in a game. All is subject to opinion and what one believes the percentage chance of use is per the values they place as most important. Although as a bat collector, I agree the more valuable bats are those that have multiple characteristics of use known by the player, factory recorded & matched examples to a particular player, as well as provenance, it still cannot be ignored that more and more photo documentation on use of off-label brands are becoming evident. And it does not take as big a leap in faith for one to think that players (and stars) may have used index bats, especially if the team purchases the lengths and weights that the player felt comfortable with and/or ordered previously. Such is the case as well, with players that are on record that they used certain lengths or models that are not documented in their ordering records.

Mike, I find the information you share invaluable and thank you for your willingness to share openly such information. Likewise, I am not attempting to create controversy, I simply differ in opinion with you and some others on the value of these "lesser" bats....it is truly up to the owner/purchaser to designate this value based upon the attributes they feel are desirable.

Regards,

Rod Larson

sayhey24
09-11-2006, 08:53 AM
I have to say that Mike has hit the nail on the head with his comments about the desirability and value of team index bats, and bats that don't match factory records.
As a long time collector, I have purchased quite a few bats that don't match factory records or known characteristics (way back before we had all the records we have now). But in each and every case, they would cost considerably less than a model that was deemed to have actually been used by the player.

With many new collectors coming into the hobby in recent years, I find that for the most part the above still holds true, and then some. The impression I get is that most of the newer collectors are much more adamant about getting bats that match factory records -- they don't want non-matching bats at any cost. I think it's in part because they realize they still have a lot to learn about bat nuances, and they're also thinking about resale if their collecting interests change down the road. Mike mentioned that some of the high prices for team index bats may be coming from uninformed collectors, I would submit that they also may be collectors with vast financial resources who just don't care much about price (it only takes two in an auction).

A good way to check all this will be to follow the course of about a dozen bats put up for auction by one seller on ebay this weekend. All have buy it now prices of four figures, yet almost all are model numbers not used by the players.
When it comes to off brand bats, I think collectors of all types will only pay a premium for them if the leading authenticators give them their seal of approval.

As for Rod's post about the Reggie Jackson bat, while it is very well thought out, I would respectfully take issue with two things. Collectors are much more likely to take a chance and pay more for an undocumented or team index bat of a player whose bats are much more hard to find and much more expensive, and are from a much earlier time period where the records are more sketchy. There's no need to pay a high price for a team index bat of a 70s player whose bats are plentiful.
As for the idea that you can't prove a player did not use a bat -- it's important to realize you can't prove a negative. I could take a Joe Pepitone bat and never be able to prove that Mickey Mantle didn't use it. You could spend a lifetime looking at thousands of photos of Mantle, and even though he was never holding a Pepitone bat, that still wouldn't be proof that he never used one.
The bottom line is that collectors should always try to make informed decisions, and buy things that make them happy and fit their budget.

Greg

MSpecht
09-11-2006, 11:46 AM
Hi Rod--

Thanks for your comments and discussion points. I agree that it is generally difficult/impossible to prove or disprove use of a specific bat by a specific player. That is why, during the authentication process, the following paragraph is included in my LOA (the last sentence is left off if the bat does not match factory records)::

"It is rare to have actually seen a player use the specific bat one is acquiring for his or her collection. The best to hope for, in most instances, is to acquire a player's professional model bat made during his playing career, with proper labeling for the period, which has reasonably close specifications to those which the player is known or believed to have used, and which shows evidence of game use. All of that is present with this bat. Additionally, the documentation contained in the Hillerich & Bradsby factory records is specific to this bat."

As I said eaid previously, I believe that index/team-ordered bats can provide a financially reasonable alternative to many high-priced HOF bats. It is possible, as you suggest, that the rising cost of undocumented bats is merely reflective of the rising costs of their documented counterparts. Still, I do not believe that there is any question that a bat which is perfectly matched to a player's personal records commands a premium over a bat that does not match or is otherwise the subject of expansive speculation.

The situation becomes more (or less) clear when discussing specific bats, especially those that carry a player's pro stock model. For instance, Mickey Mantle's pro stock model K55. Mantle's records do not document any orders of K55 bats shipped to him between 9/8/55 and 8/19/66. So what to make of a 1961-64 label period Mantle K55? If it matched documented lengths of most K55 orders shipped to him throughout his career, 36 inches, would that raise your comfort level? How about if it was 35 inches in length, as were the majority of his bats of all models during the 1961-64 period (with no orders of 36 inch bats)? How about if it was 34 inches in length (three 34 inch K55 bats were shipped in July 1968.) Yet records exist showing that Mantle K55 bats were sent to the Yankees during that period, allowing for the possibility that Mantle used a bat obtained from the team's stock. What is your comfort level (i.e. how much are you willing to pay?)

Basically, it comes down to an individual collector's comfort level when presented with all relevant information concerning a potential purchase. That is the key, and in my mind, that is the primary role of an authenticator -- to have as many records and as much researched information at his disposal as possible with which to provide a collector with an analytical report (LOA) that lays everything out, and not only leads to the most reasoned conclusion possible, but allows the collector to reach his own conclusions as well.

As far as Greg's comment about the costs of undocumented bats rising due to the invovlement of collectors with unlimited financial resources, there is probably some truth to that. Unfortunately, I don't play on that field. Also, the Ebay auctions Greg mentions will be interesting to follow. Greg, could you post a link to the Seller's auction listings for reference. The only similar item I found was for this !977-79 Yaz K48 bat which the seller, with a great deal of integrity, points out clearly that the bat is likely a team ordered bat

. http://cgi.ebay.com/1977-79-CARL-YASTRZEMSKI-GAME-USED-BOSTON-RED-SOX-BAT_W0QQitemZ320024397334QQihZ011QQcategoryZ60596Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Good luck in future collecting, and thanks for the well thought-out discussion on this topic.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

sayhey24
09-11-2006, 02:03 PM
Hi Mike,

The bats that I referred to can be found under the seller id: bondsauthentic

Greg

MSpecht
09-11-2006, 03:17 PM
Thanks for the info Greg---

BTW, nice pick-up on the lathe bat...

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

sayhey24
09-11-2006, 03:24 PM
Hi Mike,

Thanks, I love bats like that -- I'm assuming it's an R43 since that's what Berra and Ruth have in common. I don't know if there are records of Whitey Lockman using R43 bats.

Greg

MSpecht
09-11-2006, 09:06 PM
Whitey used R43 early in his career, through 1948......34.5 inch and 35 inch.......... Great interesting bat....

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com

MSpecht
09-12-2006, 12:50 AM
Une last thing Greg--

Babe Ruth's and Yogi Berra's Pro Stock bat models are , you guessed it, R43. As generally Pro Stock bats bear the names of popular players in an era and are models of bats popular with the general public, such as S2, M110, and R43, it would come as no surprise if Lockman's Pro Stock model was also R43, as it was the first model made for him and shipped April (?) 21, 1947 upon signing an endorsement contract with H & B.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com