The ethics of flipping an item

[gingi79]

I know a few of you collect hockey gamers and if you do, the odds are you may have come across a squabble on another game worn jersey site regarding the immediate flipping of a jersey for very large profit. I'll start by giving you some details:

MeiGray does something I think unique to the hobby. They allow collectors to send in wish lists for jerseys you would be interested in obtaining. They have this list and allow people to submit their wants WITHOUT HAVING TO PUT A DEPOSIT. Now I don't want to go off topic too far here but you really have to admire the fact MeiGray offers this service. MeiGray will contact you, in the order a want has been received when said jersey arrives. Don't like the price, lost interest, can't afford it now? Simply pass and they move on to the next collector on the list.
So when the NJ Devils announced they would wear their initial NJ colored sweaters (Green rather than black stripes is the main difference really.) Devil collectors I am sure bombarded Barry and Co. with wants for specific players.

So now you know the back story even though it is not essential to the debate at hand. I thought it brought up a great topic for discussion (and admittedly some debate if we are open to listening) so here is the story:

The Devils wore one set of throwback jerseys in 2 games last season. MeiGray had a deal with them to obtain said shirts and market them to the collecting public. It is announced that the set is now available and that they will be contacting previously requested wish lists with first dibs. This is done, jerseys are sold, end of MeiGray participation.

Much like any other team, the NJ Devils have a lot of fans. Let's remember that the word "fan" is short for "fanatic" I honestly believe that while we are fanatical about our teams, the word was shortened because it comes off as a little insane, creepy and scary to say "I have fanatical emotions about this team!!!!" Due to the large pool of Devil fans and the very short number of actual jerseys worn, many people were not able to obtain the jersey they wanted at what I am told were extremely fair prices. Annnnd that's where the drama begins......

Almost 24 hours to the second after they were sold out, one of them was put up for sale at a price that was much higher than the published initial sale price. (There are small details I am omitting like the fact a photomatched stick from the same player and same game was also included and while it seems important, it really isn't relevant to the issue at hand. The player is not top tier and therefore while the stick would be great for a player collector, many jersey collectors have no interest in sticks and vice versa.)

If you are still reading and wondering what the point is, here ya go. I have a lot of opinions to share but I would rather hear yours first. I am going to ask that you NOT hold back your opinions because I think this is one of those major questions in our hobby that is never really answered successfully.

When is flipping a jersey considered unethical? Did the collector really do anything wrong? Do other collectors have any right to be upset?

[Masimen]

In my opinion, once you own an item, it is yours to do as you wish. Flip it, wear it, use it, cut it up into little pieces for cards (which is a bummer,but still it's their item), give it away, whatever. As long as the item wasn't obtained in an unethical manner ie. stealing or collusion, then everything else is fair game. If you make a buck on an item then good for you.

Almost everything we purchase in our lives is marked up for a profit. That is how business works. Is the person selling the jersey for a profit any different then Mei Grey? Mei Grey purchased the Jersey and immediately sold it for a profit and now so is the person who purchased it from Mei Grey. Just because Mei Grey does this as their sole means of business doesn't make it any better or worse than a collector doing it on the side.

I recently purchased a game used item I had been in search of for a couple of years. I found one I liked, purchased it and then discovered the particular item I purchased was far more significant than either the seller or I thought because of when it was used. It was a rather expensive item (for me anyway) and since the discovery I have had the opportunity to nearly quadruple my investment. If i weren't so attached to the item and if it didn't come from a player that I collect I would sell it in a heartbeat and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Had I been on the other end of that deal and sold something and then the buyer discovered it was far more valuable than what I sold it for and he made a huge profit, I would only be angry at myself for not doing the homework on the item.

I am not saying I am right by any means, this is just how I feel.

[trsent]

When is flipping a jersey considered unethical? Did the collector really do anything wrong? Do other collectors have any right to be upset?

People will always be jealous, but if someone buys a jersey from MeiGray, and they want to list it for sale at a higher price, they have that right. Free enterprise, fair open market. Two tears in a bucket...

I don't know what the debate it. Do people not like the fact that MeiGray is taking requests to people who may flip an item? They should have emailed MeiGray and asked for the same item if that is an option, and maybe offered more?

I have been a sports memorabilia dealer myself since my mid-teens. I am always looking to buy new inventory by any reasonable and ethical means. Buying from MeiGray fits this category.

[Mulligans]

Seriously......why wouldn't you want to maximize your potential? I couldn't afford to buy anything for my collection if I wasn't making as much money as possible on the side.

When I buy a coke for 24 cents and sell it for a buck am I doing something unethical and offending the coca cola corporation in any way? I don't think coke has a problem with it!

[mbrieve]

The previous posters have already covered my thoughts exactly.

I sold a bat that I no longer wanted about a year ago. I recently saw the bat pop up for sale on one of the more popular GU bat sites for double what I sold it for. My first thought--good luck to the new owner, I hope they can make a little money on it (just like I made a little money on the sale).

Additionally, it often goes the other way for collectors. I have bought my fair share of items that I couldn't even get what I originally paid for the item. The market will eventually determine what all our items are worth. MeiGray may have sold below market value, but that isn't the initial buyers problem. I'm sure MeiGray has also sold plenty of items that have lost value almost as soon as it was shipped to the new owner.

[rdeversole]

I don't think there's ever an instance in which it's not ethical to flip something, unless you've made some sort of special deal with a player or seller. I don't understand how this topic keeps popping up. If I sell a jersey to a buddy and he ends up deciding to sell it for more money, then more power to him. That's 100% his right as owner of the jersey. But, if say David Ortiz gave me something that was specifically for me to have and then I turn around and flip it, I think that's pretty much the unethical side of flipping in my opinion.

[ziggy]

Get the $ while you can

[zegret]

I agree, once you own it you are free to do with it whatever you wish. Free enterprise in action!

[nealdevelopment@yahoo.com]

G79. Are you thinking that its an inside job and that the people that initially end up with the jersey are predetermined before the equipment actually hits the market? In other words it never hits the market for the public. I am in Real Estate in Calif. and this type of thing is an everyday occurance. The banks are getting screwed my friend. Call on any house that is a good deal and its sold. Then its on the market the next week for 50k more and it sells again. Thats business in a nut shell. You asked for an opinion.

[cliffjmp33]

I agree that flipping is an ok idea. I think the "ethical" part is sending a "want" list to Mei with the intention of reselling as opposed to keeping the item for your collection and I think it stinks for the common collector. Is there anything Mei can do to prevent the resellers from doing this again? Ban them from submitting "want" lists? Not sure I have the answers, but I see where your point is and it stinks for the true fan.

[nationals2k9]

My only "problem" that somewhat relates to this topic is the idea of obtaining an item by simply having more financial resources than everyone else vs. creating an "in" to gettting things from the source before the general public because of relative financial strength. In other words, there's an item up for auction that I really want, but it pushes my financial limits after a point and I ultimately lose out to someone with more money to spend than me. That I understand and would likely not be sour about.

But when it's quite evident that dangling a few bucks in front of a given source allows for certain people to get an edge up and create unique relationships (and thus, create an environment where things will inevitably be flipped without genuine interest in said items).... that to me, is not something I totally stand behind. The very nature of that type of scenario defeats the definition of open market, doesn't it? The open market value of something should be defined as what the highest bidder is willing to pay given all interested parties are provided knowledge the item exists. But weasling your way into being the first guy to tell so and so you'd give them 'x' amount everytime they help you out, creates a monopoly of sorts where everything is marked up before it's presented to anyone else. I guess the argument here could be if no one will pay the marked up prices, the price will drop until someone does and the item still goes to the highest bidder. I just think there's a difference between the two and I've never been a fan of the later.

[Neely8]

I think the point that is being lost which is causing so much animosity with that situation is the fact that the jerseys in question were very limited and there were many collectors who wanted one but the supply did not meet the demand. That being said for one to be flipped in such a short time after receiving it, for significantly more than what was paid for it, did not sit well at all for some collectors who weren't able to get one as well as other collectors who just disagreed with it based on ethics alone. I don't think you can compare this situation with real estate or selling a can of coke because those resources are unlimited whereas those Devils jerseys seem to be pretty rare.

[nealdevelopment@yahoo.com]

Neely. I'm not comparing it to real estate. I just used that as an example. I'm saying there could be some inside action that you or anybody else may not have been exposed to. It happens all the time in life but a lot of people are just not aware of it. Theres all kinds of crazy things going on in this hobby now that it has more of a business format. My point is pretty clear. Dont shoot me down just because you may not agree. Its just an opinion that was asked for by the poster. Thanks

[BarryMeisel]

Hi everybody
Without trying to read Gingi's mind, I think some of you have missed the point of his query.

There were no inside deals or disputed lists. And as Neely8 pointed out, it is not a typical case of flipping, which we all know is part of the hobby.

This is a unique situation where there were exactly 20 jerseys desired by 50 or 60 hard core collectors, almost all regular and repeat customers.

We could have auctioned these, and let deepest pockets win. That would have undoubtedly meant more money for us, but we felt the fairest thing to do for our loyal Devils collectors was limit one per person, and work the request list in order of request ... We started getting requests a year ago, when the game was announced,long before it was played.

So I think the real issue here, and I will bow out without taking sides, is if it was fair for a collector who did not want one but knew others would, to have taken it and Put it up on e bay rather than pass (as some did) so a fellow collector could get the shirt at the regular price.

The collector did not do anything deceitful, illegal, or or outside our rules. This is more like the ticket broker who gets in front of you on line for a concert buys the ticket, and then resells at a premium when you, who wanted to see the concert gets shut out.

[Neely8]

My point is pretty clear. Dont shoot me down just because you may not agree. Its just an opinion that was asked for by the poster. Thanks

As my point is pretty clear too. I'm not shooting you down. Just offering my opinion as well.

[nealdevelopment@yahoo.com]

Barry. Why is it that everyone is missing the point except you. Why are you so sure that there were no inside deals or lists. This type of thing only happens when there is a limited supply for sale and a huge buying pool which is what we have here. Like I said this type of thing is going on everywhere, everyday and nobody give it two thoughts. This Hobby has turned into a business and is only going to get worse as time goes on. Its only my opinion. You could be totally right in your opinion. Cant we just give an opinion without pointing to somebody and saying they are wrong. Hey, I could be way off base. I was just throwing something out there for the guys to think about. I'm out and will not have any further posts. Have a good day.

[commando]

Many of us can use a few extra bucks these days. There was probably more than one person lucky to be on that list who KNEW the jerseys would make them an instant profit, and may have even used a credit card or borrowed some money to get one of those jerseys. After reselling it, they could repay the credit card charge or loan, and have a profit from the transaction.

The person could then use the money they made to put food on the table, or maybe buy illegal drugs and a few cases of alcohol -- it doesn't really matter (though we would feel better if this person used the money to feed the homeless or cure cancer).

The bottom line here is that the jerseys were sold at a fair price by MeiGray. Kudos to them. And it seems they did it in a way as fair as possible. Judging the motives and actions of the buyers opens up a whole other issue that isn't a practical one to discuss.

Of course, if a jersey owner alters or misrepresents an item when he tries to resell it (adds game wear, alters tagging, etc.), now we're talking about outright fraud.

[commando]

Even if there was an "inside deal," whatever that exactly is, there's nothing wrong with it if it's not breaking the law. A dealer might want to give a break or a bonus to a loyal customer, and certainly has the right to do so. In that scenario, it is VERY ethical. A dealer isn't making as big a profit to say thank you to a loyal customer. Once again, it does not matter what the buyer does with his newly-acquired merchandise (unless there were conditions on the sale that both sides agreed to).

Unless you've run a business like this before, you probably aren't thinking about how these things work. Your point of view is that of a "shut out" collector. These "ackpot situations happen all the time, as others here have mentioned.

[Jules9]

Barry. Why is it that everyone is missing the point except you. Why are you so sure that there were no inside deals or lists. This type of thing only happens when there is a limited supply for sale and a huge buying pool which is what we have here. Like I said this type of thing is going on everywhere, everyday and nobody give it two thoughts. This Hobby has turned into a business and is only going to get worse as time goes on. Its only my opinion. You could be totally right in your opinion. Cant we just give an opinion without pointing to somebody and saying they are wrong. Hey, I could be way off base. I was just throwing something out there for the guys to think about. I'm out and will not have any further posts. Have a good day.


There were no inside deals because Barry sold the jerseys. If he wanted to make more money he could of auctioned them off but he didn't. The people that put in a request for the jerseys were given a chance to buy one.

It's simple, the guy that bought the jersey basically had his name on the list before other people and bought it. He claims he was going to keep it but has now put it up for sale and a couple people think he should just sell the jersey for what he paid for it.


Here's the link to the topic
http://www.gameworn.net/cgi-bin/GW/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=7;t=020342

[mbrieve]

I appreciate Mr. Meisel's response. It is always helpful to get information from the horse's mouth.

I consider myself a collector and only sell occassionally to only put back into my collection. However, with few exceptions, almost everything in my collection could be had for a price. Now, I am sure that I would scare away most potentially buyers to a particular piece due to my asking price, but just about everything has a price.

Now, I don't claim to know everything about the current situation, but I can think of a scenario that I would love to have a special/rare jersey for $300, but if somebody was willing to pay me $1000 for the same jersey, I would have a hard time passing it up. I think our own Kyle Hess had a similar situation last year with a Jason Heyward jersey. Different situation, but kind of the same thing.

[gingi79]

I feel like I fell asleep last night with a puppy and woke up with Clifford. :p

I specifically left the question ambiguous so that everyone could read the details and then form an opinion. Many of you were gracious enough to do that. I think this is more than a two sided playing card where you either see a Bicycle logo or the Ace of Spades. Ignoring the "It's just a piece of clothing, there are much more important things etc" arguments (Which is true but unhelpful) To wit:

1) The game worn community is small. The hockey game worn community is tiny. Collectors are like elephants, they never forget. When they feel like someone is taking advantage of the collecting base by marking up an item to fleece them, people will stop dealing with you. Furthermore, they will bring up everything you have ever done right and wrong in the hobby every time you voice an opinion or god forbid try to sell something again. Some people actually think the initial confrontation on this shirt had to do with an item from the past and an attempt to hurt the sellers chances of selling the jersey rather than the issue at hand!

2) Timing. As Barry said, long time repeat customers of MeiGray were shut out of this set. Let's say you have purchased every style of jersey Harvey Nosepicker has worn for your favorite team. Your fondest memory of your favorite team was wearing a long defunct jersey from 30 years ago. Perfect combination for your collection right? Fair or not, it smarts when you really want that rare jersey style of your favorite player and/or team and you find out your request, while put in over a year ago, was not the first one received. Maybe you rationalize that you will find it on the secondary market someday and get it for less. You then find out someone bought this one of a kind item only because they could flip it. Many people felt re-selling it so quickly, when so many long time collectors just missed out, was preying on their disappointment and an attempt to "fleece" them. Had it re-sold next year for a smaller profit, no one would be up in arms.

On the other hand, as other have said, he got the jersey fair and square. He can do what he wants with it and now is when the jersey is the hottest. We all buy stuff and lose money on it if we need to re-sell, here was an opportunity to buy and make money. Free Enterprise working for you for once! Viva la profit!

3) The seldom admitted to "I paid my dues/entitlement" defense. It's not really polite to say and not many would come right out and admit to feeling this way but many collectors feel like they have paid full price for many items in the past, paid their dues as far as getting the standard issue Nosepicker jersey every season. Finally a jersey comes up that is one of a kind, I deserve it! And if not me, then some other long time Devils collector who has similarly collected for 20 years and paid his dues and the jersey should rest with someone who appreciates it.

"I shouldn't have to pay some (newbie or Rangers or lucky bastard) collector 4 times as much as he just paid for it, 20 minutes ago, just because he was lucky enough to get it. He heard the team would wear this jersey and put in his request 10 minutes before I did. Why am I being fleeced?"

Again two sides to this as well. I personally have an item in my collection that is one of a kind. The jersey popped up on eBay, I made an offer and so did another collector. I sent my webshots collection and a very polite note stating how much the jersey would mean to me and my collection. The other collector did something similar, except his collection is based upon a much larger scope than just the player. The other guy offered twice what I did but acted like he was entitled to the jersey because he had bought so many other jerseys fitting the general criteria. He had "paid his dues in the hobby" thus "entitling him to get this jersey." (As a side note, that particular collector will not deal with me now. He feels I stole the jersey from him and sent offers to trade for it that even a rookie collector would be perplexed by. Horrible case of entitlement)

I'll admit I felt the jersey should be in my collection because I had several other styles and I would treasure it. I'll also admit I have no right to feel that way, it just helps validate in my mind why I own it over someone else. The guy selling it agreed he would rather a player collector who treasures the jersey own it than someone who would not treasure it and only see it as something he could either profit from or brag about. Had he not been a collector or looked at it as a seller, my beloved jersey would be locked away in a collection with either a Not for Sale or a price tag that is obscene.

If you are shaking your head in disbelief, you'll be shocked to learn that there are "collectors" out there who will write down your wants and then check the boards, eBay, auctions many times for the item with the intent of buying it just to resell to you at a huge markup. A friend of mine actually pulled down his website and deleted his posts regarding the players he collected because 2 other people were making deals for jerseys he wanted and then expecting my friend to overpay for them. When he balked at the prices, he was publicly raked over the coals as a tire kicker, ungrateful and "obviously didn't have the resources to obtain the player he collects" ! Remember what I said about memories like elephants in this hobby?

[Jags Fan Dan]

Flipping seems to be a grey area, not really black and white because of all of the different circumstances that can go into it. In this instance, I can see why some folks would be a bit hacked off at guys who threw their hat in the ring just to try to get a valuable jersey at a low price to profit off of it. But making some people angry does not mean anything unethical was done. There was no way that everybody was going to be happy with the outcome when demand far exceeded supply. Anyone who went without was likely going to be in some way disappointed, upset, etc. On the other side of it, some guys may have been glad that somebody bought the jersey to flip it because that way they were given another chance to own it, even if it is at a higher price.

One instance where I could envision myself being mad about somebody flipping something I sold them is if somebody begged and begged for me to sell them something that I was reluctant to sell under the guise that they collect that certain player and had to have the piece for their collection, then turn around and flip it the next day, that would make me angry. That has never happened to me, but it still boils down to the fact that I would have consented to sell the item, received the payment, so I am not out anything from an ethical standpoint even in this hypothetical situation.

[BarryMeisel]

Neal,

I did not say everyone is missing the point except me, please don't misstate my statement.

What I said was, "Without trying to read Gingi's mind, I think some of you have missed the point of his query."

And to answer your question directly (Jules19 was right) ... I know there were no inside deals because I sold the shirts directly. I made the calls off the request list.

When 50-60 people want 20 unique items, there are a lot of ways to go. I decided not to go the auction route, because I knew many of my repeat customers wanted one Devils jersey from such a unique set. Many put their requests in within minutes, or hours, or a day after the announcement of the set, so it was not like somebody was asleep at the switch.

All Gingi was doing, it seems, was asking for opinions on the flipping. Nobody is saying it was illegal, or wrong. But buying and reselling for such a large profit did circumvent the spirit of what MeiGray was trying to do with a small circle of collectors it knows well.

Respectfully,
Barry

[otismalibu]

One instance where I could envision myself being mad about somebody flipping something I sold them is if somebody begged and begged for me to sell them something that I was reluctant to sell under the guise that they collect that certain player and had to have the piece for their collection, then turn around and flip it the next day, that would make me angry.

That never happens, does it? :D

Ever do an eBay search and find an item where the seller has published some of the Ask Seller A Question offerings at the bottom of the page? Would you take $50 to end it now? Sometimes I email the seller and coach them up a little. On a couple instances I've even been able to guess one of the eBayers that is lowballing them. They have no idea how I could possibly know that. Then I tell them to look at what that eBayer has listed.

Offered up a better auction description for one seller and she relayed the eBay IDs (and some of the stories) that she was receiving. Entertaining reads. "I just need to get this for my son!" "I'm being deployed and won't be here for the end of the auction, can I buy it now?"

[nealdevelopment@yahoo.com]

My apology Barry. I thought we were trying to figure out what happened. It sounds like you know what happened first hand. When something gets sold you have to figure out a way to sell it. It sounds like you made that decision whether it was right or wrong or whether people agree with it or not. Go Steelers. Go Packers.

[BarryMeisel]

No problem, Neal. No apology necessary, but I appreciate it.

Yes, you're correct. We knew exactly what happened.

A loyal and well-respected Devils collector bought one of the 20 jerseys, and immediately flipped it. Well within his rights, of course, but it raised the issue (raised by Gingi in an atempt to gather opinions) of whether it was the right thing to do, given that others were certain to miss out on one if he took one.

Barry

[commando]

Here's another way to look at it. If none of the 20 jersey owners are willing to part with their item, guess what? You have a ZERO percent chance of adding one to your collection. If one or more becomes available, at least collectors now have the chance to decide what it's worth to themselves.

If a vintage Pittsburgh Steelers jersey enters the hobby, it will probably be from a unique situation (maybe the Rooney family gave it to a close friend years ago, for example). Well someone is gonna make a ton of cash when that happens. It's the reality of rare collectibles.

[gingi79]

One last thing that hasn't been hit upon. Due to the fact the community is so small, antagonizing them has reprecussions. You may say free market, he did nothing wrong, good for him for making money. That's fine, you are entitled to that opinion. However, life is not fair. Just because you agree with him doesn't mean the issue is over when the jersey sells.

The New Jersey Devils have insane and loyal fans. They are also a little nuts. For proof of this, watch the Seinfeld episode where the Patrick Warburton is sitting in the cheap seats with his face painted and his shirt off. That wasn't Hollywood magic, that was real life.

They are also incredibly passionate and knowledgeable about their gamers and with only one exception, a close knit group of die hards. Lets not forget Devil fans helped uncover the deceit of Custom Crafted. When those jerseys come up for sale now, Devil fans dissect them with detail and precision. I have found them to be, on average, very giving of their time and knowledge. Until you spit in their cornflakes.

Everyone wanted one of these jerseys. Buying one and flipping it so quickly offended certain fans because (in my opinion) they felt like a cousin was doing it to them. Why are you buying a jersey with the sole intention of tripling the price when you know you are only going to make money off of your friends and family? It seems greedy and unfair to buy your brothers favorite thing and then offer to sell it to him for so much more. Why not just let him buy it for regular price instead?

I fear the outcome of this issue will be more far reaching than just the sale of a jersey. I brought up this topic because I wanted people to be aware of just how small our community is and how our actions, however legal and legitimate, may offend other collectors. You may say "Who cares what they think?" Well, you will when people refuse to sell to you or deal with you because they think you screwed them or their fellow collectors. If that seems juvenile or silly, you're right. But it's still factual.

[AutographAddiction]

I personally agree with what "Michigan Tech Gamers" on that site had to say...
"I have no vested interest in this item one way or the other, but I must say that it is really too bad that every time something like this happens, there is a fire storm on this board towards the person that is the seller.

Now, if for example someone violated a proceedure or did something really wrong to obtain the jersey sure maybe there would be something to discuss. But in this case (and many other similar cases) the buyer put in a request, was offered a jersey, and bought it - fair and square.

As many people mentioned before, at that point the buyer can do what they want with it. They many do one of many things that would upset other collectors - cut it up, use it for a shop rag, burn it, or *gasp* sell it for profit and buy something else.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's say you're a winner the next MeiGray grab bag and get a third place jersey. Not the grand prize Crosby you really wanted, but 3rd place Joe Sakic is still a nice shirt. You have no interest in the Sakic (not your favorite player/team) so you decide to sell it for $1,200. Would you want a fire storm on your head just because you didn't sell the jersey for $50? "But you only paid $50 for your box, why should you expect to get $1,200 for the jersey... That's not fair, it should have gone to a Colorado fan who wouldn't just flip it... You're taking advantage of people..."

Again, I'm not taking sides in this single situation. I understand both sides. I think if more people put themselves in the position of the seller... AND WERE HONEST WITH THEMSELVES... we would not see this type of reaction.

If you don't think I'm right, and you ever win the lottery, I'll buy your ticket the next day for $1, because well, that's all you paid for it.

Be nice to each other guys and gals and let it be an enjoyable hobby, not place to tear each other down from behind our keyboards.
http://www.gameworn.net/BBS/smile.gif
Ryan J"

[Dach0sen0ne]

If you don't think I'm right, and you ever win the lottery, I'll buy your ticket the next day for $1, because well, that's all you paid for it.

+ 1,000,000,000

[BergerKing22784]

I understand and agree with the once its yours, your free to do what you want with it idea.

I cant really say ive ever actually hooked anyone up in the game used community in terms of a game used item at a great price at close to my cost or not because its rare I actually ever sell any game used items. The few that I have listed on this site were pretty much my cost if not at a loss.

I went to college and got my degree in business but I am a pretty crappy business guy. I am a way better "good guy" than I am business man. I always try and hook my friends, my peers up with the best deal and sometimes at a loss to myself.... I try and follow the golden rule and believe in karma.

Chances are if I knew one of you guys collected a certain player that I had no interest in and I happen to find one of their items I would pretty much sell it to you at my cost. Im not so sure everyone else would do that for others, a lot of people want to know "whats in it for me" . If I put countless hours of work in just for you thats a different story but if I just happen to say go to Orioles fanfest on Saturday and I find player X for $120 bucks and I happen to remember oh yeah Person A loves this guy and would love to have this item I would get it for them and sell it to them for $120.. That person will love the gesture and in the future it may comeback and work out for me and my collecting needs.

Recently on ebay the Negro League game Orioles vs Royals jerseys were sold on ebay and a focus of my collection Kevin Millwood was listed on there and the topic was brought up on this forum explaining that they were listed. I made sure to point out on this forum that Kevin Millwood is a focus of my collection in hopes no one would bid if they really really really didnt want it, if they could live without it. Needless to say I didnt win it (a fault of my own for not bidding enough but times are tough) I just hope whoever did didnt know I really wanted that jersey or they really wanted it for themselves that it would be a nice focal point in their collection and not just another hoarded piece of game used items.

If they bought it for the sole purpose of trying to flip it knowing there is a demand there by someone such as myself as I stated intentions and they knew I was interested in it I would be kind of upset if they ever offered it to me for sale for more than they paid. Yes its there right but I just hope nobody would do something dirty to another collector like that knowing that inside information. Thats just me though, Id never get into a bidding war with someone if I knew they really wanted it.

[MarinersFan34]

Clearly a case of someone with zero interest in the item and simply looking for profit. Obviously it shows with the timing of the sale but that's how it goes sometimes. There are dealers and collectors that simply keep an eye out for a chance at profit. Some do it to further their business and some do it well, just because or to get a more positive cash flow, even if it is at the cost of their hobby friends.

Recently I lost out on an item I wanted very much but due to working massive amounts of OT I was not able to respond to email quickly and the item sold to a dealer, which of course now has it marked up. Had this dealer/collector not been looking out for just profits, I'd have gotten the item. Will I buy from this person now or in the future, most likely not. Previous to this instance though, I probably would have bought from them.

I know some will say it was fair game to anyone who saw the sale posted and you're right. But in the end when you know you've missed out on an item because the other party had zero interest in keeping it and just wants to flip it, it stings a little and that doesn't go away with how small the collecting community is.

[perlman9]

a little off topic, but I collect small press horror books as well and there was a company that sold limited stephen king books. They used to do first come/first served and the same thing happened where dealers, etc who are at their computers, etc got firs shot. After probably receiving similar complaints, they started doing two things. One, was they held a lottery so there was a certain amount of days to get your name in, and if more than the number of books, they drew names. The second was they started sending out an email a day or two ahead of the actual reservation period to give collectors fair notice. Not sure how Meigray did it, but I have been happy with both those options and although no system is perfect, I at least felt collectors were given the same opportunity. But as always, there will be those who resell either to fund more purchases or to pay bills, etc.

Where I do have an issue is when a seller agrees to a sale price, gets offered more by someone else and then sells for a higher price.

[3arod13]

Other than the below statement, which would piss me off also because you were doing a good thing for what you thought was a sincere fellow collector, I don't get what all the fuss is about.

If it wasn't for flipping, I couldn't afford most of what I get.

Nobody owes anybody anything. You own it, you do as you see fit with it.

Quote: "One instance where I could envision myself being mad about somebody flipping something I sold them is if somebody begged and begged for me to sell them something that I was reluctant to sell under the guise that they collect that certain player and had to have the piece for their collection, then turn around and flip it the next day, that would make me angry."

[jobathenut]

gingi-Yeah i was following that thread also on there.And i think all the posters hating on this seller are way out of bounds.I am in the opinion that if its yours,then make that paper all you can.I mean its yours,so ask whatever you want.And i just have to say "gingi",i know this is not the point of what you are asking.But i do have to comment about something you said.That this is not a "top tier player".Well its not like its a nobody bench player,i mean that PAUL MARTIN might not be a crosby but he is a top tier player to me.But then as he played for me and my brothers favorite college hockey team i might be a little bias.And i think its neat that the seller has included the stick as how many people can say they have the stick and jersey.But i know what you mean, most of the time you have stick collectors and jersey collectors.I went to ebay where its on now and its up to $800 right now.So a a little more than what he paid for the jersey.
I know a few of you collect hockey gamers and if you do, the odds are you may have come across a squabble on another game worn jersey site regarding the immediate flipping of a jersey for very large profit. I'll start by giving you some details:

MeiGray does something I think unique to the hobby. They allow collectors to send in wish lists for jerseys you would be interested in obtaining. They have this list and allow people to submit their wants WITHOUT HAVING TO PUT A DEPOSIT. Now I don't want to go off topic too far here but you really have to admire the fact MeiGray offers this service. MeiGray will contact you, in the order a want has been received when said jersey arrives. Don't like the price, lost interest, can't afford it now? Simply pass and they move on to the next collector on the list.
So when the NJ Devils announced they would wear their initial NJ colored sweaters (Green rather than black stripes is the main difference really.) Devil collectors I am sure bombarded Barry and Co. with wants for specific players.

So now you know the back story even though it is not essential to the debate at hand. I thought it brought up a great topic for discussion (and admittedly some debate if we are open to listening) so here is the story:

The Devils wore one set of throwback jerseys in 2 games last season. MeiGray had a deal with them to obtain said shirts and market them to the collecting public. It is announced that the set is now available and that they will be contacting previously requested wish lists with first dibs. This is done, jerseys are sold, end of MeiGray participation.

Much like any other team, the NJ Devils have a lot of fans. Let's remember that the word "fan" is short for "fanatic" I honestly believe that while we are fanatical about our teams, the word was shortened because it comes off as a little insane, creepy and scary to say "I have fanatical emotions about this team!!!!" Due to the large pool of Devil fans and the very short number of actual jerseys worn, many people were not able to obtain the jersey they wanted at what I am told were extremely fair prices. Annnnd that's where the drama begins......

Almost 24 hours to the second after they were sold out, one of them was put up for sale at a price that was much higher than the published initial sale price. (There are small details I am omitting like the fact a photomatched stick from the same player and same game was also included and while it seems important, it really isn't relevant to the issue at hand. The player is not top tier and therefore while the stick would be great for a player collector, many jersey collectors have no interest in sticks and vice versa.)

If you are still reading and wondering what the point is, here ya go. I have a lot of opinions to share but I would rather hear yours first. I am going to ask that you NOT hold back your opinions because I think this is one of those major questions in our hobby that is never really answered successfully.

When is flipping a jersey considered unethical? Did the collector really do anything wrong? Do other collectors have any right to be upset?

[Jules9]

Well the thread has magically been deleted, along with the Ebay auction post. Also the ebay auction has been stopped. I'm sure there are a few people that are going to make a mental note about dealing with this seller.

[jobathenut]

Yeah, and the mental note i am making is how much for the stick as i want it.
Well the thread has magically been deleted, along with the Ebay auction post. Also the ebay auction has been stopped. I'm sure there are a few people that are going to make a mental note about dealing with this seller.

[jppopma]

Flipping an item is all about making money. Nothing wrong with that, whether it be at the right place at the right time or somehow being in the know....thats how it goes and I'm sure we have all been on both sides of that fence.

In this case, the person who got the jersey put in their request for it long long ago. Therefore they had first dibs on the jersey and to do whatever they want with it. They could have passed and the #2 request would have been offered the jersey. I think Barry was more than fair in doing this for these collectors and giving them a decent chance at the jerseys, which would have likely outpriced the buyers in auction.

Other instances of people flipping items are season ticket holders, being lucky enough to be at a game they put new gamers out for sale at, or being on a short e-mail list to get the deals sent to you.

It hurts to be miss out on an item, but there will always be more available. The only think I wonder about the whole "problem" people have with the original listing..how many of the complainers would have been interested in a Paul Martin at the original offering price to begin with?