PDA

View Full Version : Pujols 2002 Rawlings - Important Please read!



bigtruck260
01-22-2011, 01:00 AM
Hey everyone,

I wish I posted more in the forum, but after reading a few threads here lately, I know why I stopped. I guess I am more of a lurker these days.

In the tradition of the old school, I am going to make a post that I hope will clear up a few things that bothered me personally.

A freshly banned poster claimed on this site that a member in good standing (and a prolific Pujols collector...and friend of mine) blatantly sold a Pujols BP bat on another site. That in and of itself is not really a horrific problem, since MLB claims that BP bats ARE considered game used by their standards.

The real issue is that the banned poster also claimed that Bert (Shoremen44) blatantly removed tape from a bat that was purchased from Ball Park Heroes (Kim Stigall) and re-sold it without mentioning the removal of said tape.

I remember BOTH bats, and actually had a photo saved of the BPH bat in question. I posted it in THIS thread as a matter of fact (July of 2008)

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=17384&highlight=pujols+knob+tape (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=17384&highlight=pujols+knob+tape)

In this thread Bert mentions that he has a 2002 Rawlings ALREADY with BP and game use. He comments that he has never owned or seen a Pujols bat with tape.

To me, this is the best proof that Bert's bat is not the same as the bat from BPH. I have known Bert for a long time, and have never known him as someone who is out to 'steal' from someone else.

Hopefully, this post does not get me into trouble. I am just trying to get some missed facts out there. If I am wrong about any of this, I sincerely apologize.

Dave

gingi79
01-22-2011, 01:10 AM
Wait Dave,

I am confused here. Are you saving that the poster I spent hours begging to provide proof of his accusations actually was incorrect? That all of my positive yet annoying questioning resulted in proof that Bert, a member of this website who has provided insight into game worn materials with proof and facts, was selling a bat without screwing other collectors and you have proof? You must be covering for him. No wait, are you a mod with undocumented bias?

bigtruck260
01-22-2011, 01:16 AM
Wait Dave,

I am confused here. Are you saving that the poster I spent hours begging to provide proof of his accusations actually was incorrect? That all of my positive yet annoying questioning resulted in proof that Bert, a member of this website who has provided insight into game worn materials with proof and facts, was selling a bat without screwing other collectors and you have proof? You must be covering for him. No wait, are you a mod with undocumented bias?

I read both threads and tried hard to see both sides of the coin...

I know that there are guys in the autograph field that pester guys on eBay for selling fakes. 90% of the time, they are right - but occasionally they go after a guy who is an in-person collector who simply has a variance of a player's auto that looks bad...but its still legit.

The thing about this site (and the reason I was drawn to it) was the intent of many of the posters (guys like Andrew Lang and Jeff Scott). We have to have hard facts in hand before accusing anyone.

D

allstarsplus
01-22-2011, 07:59 AM
I read both threads and tried hard to see both sides of the coin...

I know that there are guys in the autograph field that pester guys on eBay for selling fakes. 90% of the time, they are right - but occasionally they go after a guy who is an in-person collector who simply has a variance of a player's auto that looks bad...but its still legit.

The thing about this site (and the reason I was drawn to it) was the intent of many of the posters (guys like Andrew Lang and Jeff Scott). We have to have hard facts in hand before accusing anyone.

DThanks for posting your information. I am trying to stay fair and impartial. I just got another email from basketballbones and Jeff Scott was kind enough to email me with his thoughts.

After seeing the photo of the BPH bat and the tape I can see that Bert's bat IMO probably was taped at one time but it doesn't mean Bert removed the tape. To accuse someone with no proof isn't fair is all I am saying.

Also, Rawlings can make several bats in a batch so I don't doubt that Albert would have prepped a few bats for BP.

Here is the photo of the BPH bat with the tape and the other 2 are Bert's bat.
39704 39705



39703

shoremen44
01-22-2011, 09:50 AM
I first wanted to say that I appreciate the emails from members and friends that support me... I have found guys on this forum that despite not meeting most of you I would consider you close friends. I also appreciate the forum memebers who don't even know me, but have come to a fellow forum member's defense in the way this was handled

as far as the Rawlings bat goes... I have owned at one point in time 3 different Rawlings bats according to the sometimes great and sometimes poor record keeping I keep... one was from 2001 and the other 2 were from 2002. NONE of which had tape when I bought them.

Did the bat I sold have tape on it at one time... I don't know... there is a line down near the handle, however there is also one up near the middle of the bat, could be from tape, but it could also be a tar rag... I have several bats with defined lines, what I do know is that I bought it without tape and have had the bat in the same condition for over three years.

With that said I have contacted BPH to see if they have records of the bat, if they respond with some evidence that I can show that both bats are the same, I will be the first one to tell the buyer of my bat that it once had tape, and I will offer a full refund... I have always stood behind everything I have sold, and will continue to do so... I have been screwed in the past and if this hobby was only about money I wouldn't collect, as I am sure I am not the only one who has spent much more than they will ever get back.



What really bothers me about all this it that Basketballbones, whomever he or she is has never had the common courtesy to contact me personally... its not like they cant find my email address or screename... my email is on the bottom of every post, on my site, and on all my ebay listings.

I am not a perfect person, I make mistakes just like everyone else, if I sell an item that I later find out to be altered or fake, I would always make it right....

However instead of voicing their concerns they decide to attack me publically with no evidence...


I would like to thank Andrew Lang... he is the only person who has even bothered to contact me and discuss this in length.


I appologize for using profanity in my first post, however being called a lier, a cheat, and a theif by someone I have never talked to got me more than a little angry.

The bottom line is this... I have never nor will I ever alter an item I posess, as a collector I believe that to be one of the most agregious things someone can do... and should I find out an item I sell is not 100% I would make it right with the buyer... I would have told Basketballbones this if they ever attempted to contact me, but I was never given the chance

thanks
Bert

3arod13
01-22-2011, 10:19 AM
I first wanted to say that I appreciate the emails from members and friends that support me... I have found guys on this forum that despite not meeting most of you I would consider you close friends. I also appreciate the forum memebers who don't even know me, but have come to a fellow forum member's defense in the way this was handled

as far as the Rawlings bat goes... I have owned at one point in time 3 different Rawlings bats according to the sometimes great and sometimes poor record keeping I keep... one was from 2001 and the other 2 were from 2002. NONE of which had tape when I bought them.

Did the bat I sold have tape on it at one time... I don't know... there is a line down near the handle, however there is also one up near the middle of the bat, could be from tape, but it could also be a tar rag... I have several bats with defined lines, what I do know is that I bought it without tape and have had the bat in the same condition for over three years.

With that said I have contacted BPH to see if they have records of the bat, if they respond with some evidence that I can show that both bats are the same, I will be the first one to tell the buyer of my bat that it once had tape, and I will offer a full refund... I have always stood behind everything I have sold, and will continue to do so... I have been screwed in the past and if this hobby was only about money I wouldn't collect, as I am sure I am not the only one who has spent much more than they will ever get back.



What really bothers me about all this it that Basketballbones, whomever he or she is has never had the common courtesy to contact me personally... its not like they cant find my email address or screename... my email is on the bottom of every post, on my site, and on all my ebay listings.

I am not a perfect person, I make mistakes just like everyone else, if I sell an item that I later find out to be altered or fake, I would always make it right....

However instead of voicing their concerns they decide to attack me publically with no evidence...


I would like to thank Andrew Lang... he is the only person who has even bothered to contact me and discuss this in length.


I appologize for using profanity in my first post, however being called a lier, a cheat, and a theif by someone I have never talked to got me more than a little angry.

The bottom line is this... I have never nor will I ever alter an item I posess, as a collector I believe that to be one of the most agregious things someone can do... and should I find out an item I sell is not 100% I would make it right with the buyer... I would have told Basketballbones this if they ever attempted to contact me, but I was never given the chance

thanks
Bert

Bert, great post and response! You've always been a class act individual!

Titans74
01-22-2011, 10:24 AM
Bert,

I don't know you. But great straight forward, genuine post. Thank you.

onlyalbert
01-22-2011, 11:05 AM
I'm kind of new to the forum but have been working on acquiring one of Bert's bats. He has always been upfront and helpful with me on his bats and others that I have looked at, and I have been in contact with him way before I made it on here. Bert, keep up the good work and turn loose of that 09.

metsbats
01-22-2011, 11:42 AM
I read both threads and tried hard to see both sides of the coin...

I know that there are guys in the autograph field that pester guys on eBay for selling fakes. 90% of the time, they are right - but occasionally they go after a guy who is an in-person collector who simply has a variance of a player's auto that looks bad...but its still legit.

The thing about this site (and the reason I was drawn to it) was the intent of many of the posters (guys like Andrew Lang and Jeff Scott). We have to have hard facts in hand before accusing anyone.

D


We have to have hard facts in hand before accusing anyone.

This precisely the reason why basketballbones was issued a 10 day ban.

Folks need to understand this.

The fact that the moderator group has reached out to folks like Jeff Scott nd Kim Stigall shows no bias and we are dedicate to exposing issues inside and outside in the house.

This think otherwise is foolish.

metsbats
01-22-2011, 11:50 AM
Thanks for posting your information. I am trying to stay fair and impartial. I just got another email from basketballbones and Jeff Scott was kind enough to email me with his thoughts.

After seeing the photo of the BPH bat and the tape I can see that Bert's bat IMO probably was taped at one time but it doesn't mean Bert removed the tape. To accuse someone with no proof isn't fair is all I am saying.

Also, Rawlings can make several bats in a batch so I don't doubt that Albert would have prepped a few bats for BP.

Here is the photo of the BPH bat with the tape and the other 2 are Bert's bat.
46100 46101



46099


Here's close up photo of the bat from a previous thread showing individual player collections for comparison purposes. (date 2/18/10)

metsbats
01-22-2011, 12:03 PM
Here are two photos side by side.

The area of around the red ring appears to have more darker grain on the BPH Pujols verses the Bert Pujols.

Additionally the knob on the Bert Pujols appears to have marks and usage. The BPH bat was taped on the knob which would make the handle cleaner if the tape had been removed.

Just my observations. I'll add my opinion that based on the grain marks around the ring these are not the same bats.

rj_lucas
01-22-2011, 12:06 PM
I'm getting to this party a little late, as the original posts were written well after my bedtime :)

I just wanted to make two quick points. First, add my voice to those who count Bert as a stand-up guy, as honest as the day is long.

Second, Bert is right on the money when he says that Albert's bats sometimes feature sharp, well defined lines from a tar rag.

Notice the lines on my 2005 SAM, one down by the grip, the other above the logo. Those are rag lines.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

metsbats
01-22-2011, 02:17 PM
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=17384&highlight=pujols+rawlings

According to this thread the 2002 Pujols was still on BPH's inventory as of July 2008 and at the same time Bert mentioned he was in possession of a 2002 Rawlings Pujols. Assuming Bert is referring to the 2002 bat he just sold on ebay I'm not sure how the BPH bat can be the same one.

chakes89
01-22-2011, 02:57 PM
Is it just me or does it look the barrel of the top bat had tape on it at one time?

Because there is an noticeable change in color as it goes from light to dark around around the "L and S" in "Pujols"

This might just be from the wood grain or it may have come from tape being on the barrel then being removed.

Just a thought (And sorry if this was already mentioned)

metsbats
01-22-2011, 03:57 PM
As Jeff stated Pujols typically used Rawlings during BP but to a lesser extent in game situations in 2001 and 2002. This would certainly explain why the end of the barrel looked like it was taped at one point. The Rawlings may have been a BP bat promoted to a gamer. Bert indicated both green BP ball marks and dark game colored ball marks on this bat too.

bigtruck260
01-22-2011, 04:20 PM
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=17384&highlight=pujols+rawlings

According to this thread the 2002 Pujols was still on BPH's inventory as of July 2008 and at the same time Bert mentioned he was in possession of a 2002 Rawlings Pujols. Assuming Bert is referring to the 2002 bat he just sold on ebay I'm not sure how the BPH bat can be the same one.


That is correct David. I was looking at the bat on BPH's site as a potential addition to my collection. As I remember, it was just under $700 and even for a BP bat, it seemed like a cool item of Albert's to have.

I also remember Bert's bat on his website saying that his Rawlings had "BP AND Game use".

allstarsplus
01-22-2011, 05:11 PM
Here was Pujols this year. 3 bats out on that tarp for his BP session. One was taped and 2 were not.

What I noticed about Bert's bat is it looks like it had possibly a weighted sleeve or donut impression just above the Rawlings "R". Now that was 2002, I observed Albert's 2010 BP session and he swung around a weighted steel bat and didn't put a donut or sleeve on his BP bat warming up.

39735

allstarsplus
01-22-2011, 05:18 PM
A closeup of this tape job for reference this past season.

39736

metsbats
01-22-2011, 06:05 PM
That is correct David. I was looking at the bat on BPH's site as a potential addition to my collection. As I remember, it was just under $700 and even for a BP bat, it seemed like a cool item of Albert's to have.

I also remember Bert's bat on his website saying that his Rawlings had "BP AND Game use".


I notice some differences in the amount of tar around the lower handle area between the two bats which I circled also.

So given the physical differences between the BPH bat and the Bert bat and the fact that BPH had this very bat in their inventory while Bert had possession of his, can we all draw the conclusion that there is no way the BPH bat was the bat in Bert's auction?

metsbats
01-22-2011, 06:23 PM
I'm getting to this party a little late, as the original posts were written well after my bedtime :)

I just wanted to make two quick points. First, add my voice to those who count Bert as a stand-up guy, as honest as the day is long.

Second, Bert is right on the money when he says that Albert's bats sometimes feature sharp, well defined lines from a tar rag.

Notice the lines on my 2005 SAM, one down by the grip, the other above the logo. Those are rag lines.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

Rick,

Good information. Check out the handle on the Bert bat and you can see some staining on the area which would have been covered by tape on the BPH bat. One would expect to see a clean area under tape after the tape is removed.

woodbat
01-22-2011, 10:31 PM
Here was Pujols this year. 3 bats out on that tarp for his BP session. One was taped and 2 were not.

What I noticed about Bert's bat is it looks like it had possibly a weighted sleeve or donut impression just above the Rawlings "R". Now that was 2002, I observed Albert's 2010 BP session and he swung around a weighted steel bat and didn't put a donut or sleeve on his BP bat warming up.

46137
If you have photos of Albert using the weighted steel bat in BP, could you match these attached photos? Believe it would be from the 2010 season.
Thanks,
Don
woodbat@bellsouth.net

chakes89
01-22-2011, 10:45 PM
Bet that cost a lot to ship

Haha

nationals2k9
01-23-2011, 01:26 AM
I feel like we're all missing something here. The guy who started this whole mess, basketballbones, was mentioned in another thread as being Mike Schultz, a recognized suspected fraud in his own right, thought to have forged numerous game used items to date. A good number of forum members have communicated directly with him and a few of us (me included) have purchased items from him... later to discover the item was junk. He not only pushes bad stuff, he operates with multiple emails, seller IDs, paypal accounts, and uses the same made up story with anyone who's roped into the crap he's selling.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=39798

I mention this because we're letting him do exactly what he wants to do. He rained on the parade by openly questioning Bert's bat. He did it in a way unaccepted by this community. And now he gets to sit back and watch all of us scramble to prove to each other that Bert didn't do a thing to the bat. But why are we ignoring the fact that this guy just tipped his hand and pushed his luck by dropping in to cause a stir? I would like to think the fact that another member recognized this guy, making an old thread relevant again, would prompt us to continue to compare notes and build a case against him. The members of the community do some amazing things everyday with the way we help each other out. So why are we letting a criminal just drop in and ruin the party and get away with it?

I say this openly because I hope this crook reads this and knows we know about him. I strongly suggest we work together to turn something over to the authorities in this knucklehead's area so he gets a nice little knock on his door. We all know very well how quickly we can produce old emails, pictures, etc for just about everything else we care about. So why not care about this and do something about it? I would love it if we did.

Bravesfan
01-23-2011, 08:08 AM
Great post nationals2K9. I am pretty new here but I appreciate this site and its members. I hope others think about your post and answer the call.

metsbats
01-23-2011, 08:39 AM
I feel like we're all missing something here. The guy who started this whole mess, basketballbones, was mentioned in another thread as being Mike Schultz, a recognized suspected fraud in his own right, thought to have forged numerous game used items to date. A good number of forum members have communicated directly with him and a few of us (me included) have purchased items from him... later to discover the item was junk. He not only pushes bad stuff, he operates with multiple emails, seller IDs, paypal accounts, and uses the same made up story with anyone who's roped into the crap he's selling.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=39798

I mention this because we're letting him do exactly what he wants to do. He rained on the parade by openly questioning Bert's bat. He did it in a way unaccepted by this community. And now he gets to sit back and watch all of us scramble to prove to each other that Bert didn't do a thing to the bat. But why are we ignoring the fact that this guy just tipped his hand and pushed his luck by dropping in to cause a stir? I would like to think the fact that another member recognized this guy, making an old thread relevant again, would prompt us to continue to compare notes and build a case against him. The members of the community do some amazing things everyday with the way we help each other out. So why are we letting a criminal just drop in and ruin the party and get away with it?

I say this openly because I hope this crook reads this and knows we know about him. I strongly suggest we work together to turn something over to the authorities in this knucklehead's area so he gets a nice little knock on his door. We all know very well how quickly we can produce old emails, pictures, etc for just about everything else we care about. So why not care about this and do something about it? I would love it if we did.

Nationals2k9,

One issue at a time my friend.

We don't see this as scrambling but an exercise at what the Forum and it's members do best. In this case it was analyzing a situation which involved one of our own. (remember no bias and we should question things both inside and outside the House)

Please be assured that the Moderation committee will be considering next steps to take with the member who started the original thread.

allstarsplus
01-23-2011, 10:39 AM
If you have photos of Albert using the weighted steel bat in BP, could you match these attached photos? Believe it would be from the 2010 season.
Thanks,
Don
woodbat@bellsouth.net

That looks like what he was warming up with. I just didn't take any photos of that. Maybe start a new thread and see if anyone else has any photos or info. Also go through Flickr.com and see if anyone posted up some Pujols BP photos.

I am wondering for Bert's bat what he did back in 2002. Donut, sleeve, weighted warmup bat?

rj_lucas
01-23-2011, 04:26 PM
That looks like what he was warming up with. I just didn't take any photos of that. Maybe start a new thread and see if anyone else has any photos or info. Also go through Flickr.com and see if anyone posted up some Pujols BP photos.

I am wondering for Bert's bat what he did back in 2002. Donut, sleeve, weighted warmup bat?

Not sure about BP, but early in his career Albert used a donut in the on-deck circle, and you'll often find donut impressions on the early gamers. I have video of him using the donut in 2001, but it's on VHS so I'd need to get it transferred to digital to grab some screens.

I'm not sure when he stopped using the donut on-deck, Jeff Scott has tracked every Pujols AB since 2005, so he might know.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com