Baseball Jersey - Can Someone Explain This?

[otismalibu]

First off, I know little or nothing about baseball jerseys...other than what I might pick up on this board.

Someone sent me this link today.

http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=776

I've read it a few times over and it still makes no sense to me. Is Mr. Grob saying that a patch and a laundry marker 2 was added to a 1975 Rose jersey to make it look like a 1976 Rose jersey?

What would be the point? Didn't the Reds win the Series both years? Does a patch and 2 make it more valuable than the 1975 version? Did Rose have a significantly better statistical season or post season in 1976?

[bronx_burner]

That's what it sounds like to me. But it seems the seller is the only one who can answer what the reasoning was because I don't think anyone would place a higher value on the 76 jersey just because it had the patch. Statistically both years were similar for Rose, an all-star both years and top 5 in MVP voting in both as well. Numbers across the board were pretty close in almost all categories. Rose was World Series MVP in 75 which (at least to me) would make the 75 jersey more attractive.

What would possess someone to alter a Mears authenticated 75 Rose to a fake 76 is beyond my (and I assume most others) comprehension. But I'm sure Dave has no idea why this was done and did the only thing he could do in alerting people that it was actually done. The tags are clearly the same.

[notxpensv4u]

Very interesting read. This is the very reason I have decided not to puchase older game used. I have been burnt a few times. Thanks to the great people at gameuseduniverse I have been educated. Have a Great Holiday guys and thanks for helping me save $$$!!!

[karamaxjoe]

What would possess someone to alter a Mears authenticated 75 Rose to a fake 76 is beyond my (and I assume most others) comprehension.


Here's a thought......maybe Greg should enlighten us on the reason.:rolleyes:

[sox83cubs84]

The handwritten "2" looks to be an effort to mimic the handwritten set numbers often (though not always) inscribed on mid-1970s Reds road Wilson gamers since the style at the time did not employ year/set strip tags like they did in the late 1970's and through 1984. Said "2", however, is noticeably different than the numbers the team actually added to the tag. In the majority of such instances, the number was written in red, not black; the handwriting style of the "2" was more rounded and less jagged than this exemplar, and was centered on the Wilosn tag, not off to one side as this tag shows.

Why this was done, I have no clue, but Dave Grob was correct in pointing this flaw out to other hobbyists.

Dave Miedema

[notxpensv4u]

Say it aint so Greg
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=33247

[metsbats]

The 1976 BiCentennial bats typically sell at a premium being a one year style and the Nation's 200th year birthday. Perhaps the presence of the 76 patch on the jersey adds some premium to the jersey too?

[Dach0sen0ne]

That's why I love the internet, instant information. :D

[1970REDS]

The 76 Reds are one of the greatest of all time , Like the 27 Yankees , would a jersey from Ruth or Gehrig from the 27 season not bring a premium compared to a 1926 or 28 jersey . The Reds commons from 76 bring a premium , so one would assume a Rose jersey would also.

[bronx_burner]

While I was a bit young at the time to have a first hand opinion on 75 vs 76 Reds, I've always heard the 75 team as being considered the better of the 2. And consistently being mentioned in the top 10 teams of all time. I won't argue the point either way, if you say 76 was one of the all time great teams. I've just always heard it the other way around. Which is why this alteration continues to baffle me.

[legaleagle92481]

guys time to brush up on your history. tim mccarver who has forgetten more about baseball then any of us will ever know once said 76 had his vote for greatest team ever. there is good reason to support that statement. they were the only team EVER in mlb history to sweep the playoffs and the world series. they led all of baseball in 10 major stat categories, something again no team has EVER done. seven of their eight regulars made the allstar team. the 75 team won more regular season games but was not as domainant. the team also marked the end of the reds run as after the season they traded perez and the next year they finished second with 14 less wins than in 76. as we all know they would go titleless until the lou pinella team that was devoid of legendary players except for barry larkin a borderline hofer.

[aeneas01]

What would possess someone to alter a Mears authenticated 75 Rose to a fake 76 is beyond my (and I assume most others) comprehension.

i think it was altered before it was sent to mears for evaluation. as such mears described it in their loo as a 1976 jersey, not a 1975. dave grob mentioned in his piece that the reds' 1975 and 1976 road jerseys were basically the same, so it was the patch that ultimately drove the 1976 description. at least that's my understanding...

but i'm with you, why change a 1975 rose shirt into a 1976 rose shirt? especially given rose won the 1975 world series mvp as you mentioned. i'm no jersey guy, but it seems that it could have even been argued that the shirt was quite possibly worn by rose during the '75 series, when he won his ws mvp. that would be more valuable than a '76 rose shirt, no?

who knows, maybe the person who altered the shirt did so because he got wind of a collector looking for 1976 bicentennial items, perhaps specifically from the reds, willing to pony up a sturdy price. seems like someone was asking around the forum for bicentennial reds bats not too long ago....

whatever the case, this looks pretty darn bad, pretty darn embarrassing... btw i wonder if the person who altered the shirt got the idea of the black magic marker set number from these reds' shirts that have sold at auction:


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/comp1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/comp2-1.jpg

...

[dcrules01]

So was Greg the one that altered it. I remember his thread about aquiring the 75 Rose jersey. And now that the jersey was altered does it devalue the 75. Times are tough for everyone but why ruin a valuable piece. Also Dave mentioned Greg aquired a 76 with the bicentennial patch and then resold that jersey without the patch. I have dealt with Greg on a few occasions he has always been upfront with me when I have been looking for items. It would be ashame if this was done. I would love to find a 76 Youngblood or Flynn jersey with the patch but if I am correct they were recycled. Any possibility that Rose was giving the same jersey he wore in 75 to be used again in 76? A lot of collectors like patches I do also. I have a 78 road Youngblood for the Mets. Hope to find a 79-82 one day with his name on the back. This would be like me stripping the 78 and having his name added on the back. I would never do that. I also was baffled when krukcards listed a 79 road Mets Richie Hebner but the tagging said it was set 1 and had the number 18 Youngbloods number. Also had the outline of a longer nameplate for Youngbloods name but it was Hebners.. All we as collectors can do is do out homework ourselves. The thing that bothers me I'd the fact that it seems Greg tried selling the jersey even as Dave requested the original documentation bacj. Only Greg can answer this but as he was not obligated to provide proof that he has both jerseys in his possesion wouldn't any of us do that just to show that we were innocent. I know I would have no problem.

[Number9]

The part I dont understand is why RUIN in 75 jersey, a jersey I assume is worth 5 grand or more. I mean you cant get that sharpie off without likely damaging part of the tag and if you take that patch off you likely will have some stitch damage. So to me it is ruined.
Now it is neither a 1976 jersey or an all-original 1975 jersey.
At least with a bad jersey someone tries to turn into a good one, its not a financial risk, but with this one you risk (and ruin) a $5,000 jersey. Doesn't make sense.

[diamondicons]

This is disappointing…the hobby now has one less legitimate 1974-1975 Rose jersey. After Greg indicated he had a 76 Rose, I made multiple attempts to purchase his 75. Now I know why he declined. I know Greg’s primary emphasis was the 1976 Reds. He had multiple 76 bats and purchased my 76 Gullett. Even so, his intentional alteration of the jersey to make it appear as a 76 makes no sense. Fortunately for the hobby, the issue surfaced and was investigated by Dave Grob…otherwise there would be a 1976 Rose MEARS 10 that no one would have questioned.

[Dewey2007]

I agree this is disappointing too. I have bought and sold a couple of items with Greg and he always seemed like a passionate collector especially with 75-76 Reds items. The evidence seems pretty overwhelming so not sure why he would risk do something like this especially to a Rose jersey from that era. It looks like another vintage jersey bites the dust...

[LWMM]

I wouldn't be so quick to call the Rose jersey "ruined" or "lost". It's certainly not all original anymore, but I bet that the patch could be removed without leaving terribly obtrusive stitch marks (hey, it's better than a gamer that's been sewn onto a matte for framing), and perhaps a dry cleaner could suggest a way to remove or fade the mark ("2") on the tag. It's dissapointing that the jersey was altered, and it looks at this point as if Greg's reputation is trashed, but I think the jersey can be turned into a moderately restored 1975 Rose gamer without much effort.

[tacprc]

I think that the missing piece of information here is that the original Pete Rose road jersey could be dated to either 1974 or 1975. I don't believe that it is possible to reliably distinguish between those two years -- as regards Reds road jerseys.

All things equal in terms of game use, etc., a 1976 Pete Rose road jersey would be worth at least 20% more than a 1974-5 Pete Rose road jersey.

[Titans74]

I agree this is disappointing too. I have bought and sold a couple of items with Greg and he always seemed like a passionate collector especially with 75-76 Reds items. The evidence seems pretty overwhelming so not sure why he would risk do something like this especially to a Rose jersey from that era. It looks like another vintage jersey bites the dust...


People risk their so-called reputations over things like this typically for two reasons. They are greedy and they never expect to be caught. When caught they usually disappear for a certain amount of time only to reappear either with a boatload of excuses and a sob story about what made them do it or they just reinvent themselves under a new internet id.

Either way, once a thief always a thief. A dishonest person gets no sympathy from me.

[bagbig]

This is shameful and fraudulent!!!! Didn't Greg Walker have a fake bat that there is a long thread on as well?? Where there is smoke, there is fire.

[soxbats]

There was a long thread about a purported Bench bicentennial bat that involved a reds collector named Greg, with the screen name "33 bird"

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=32294&page=3&highlight=bench+powerized

Is this the same gentleman?

In that thread the doctoring of a bench bat from unused to purportedly used was documented with several pictures from auctions. Interestingly, the bench bat was doctored with a knob number that was exactly the same as a legitimate bench bat and the use was substantially the same as a legitimate Bench bat, demonstrating that the forger, whomever it was, had an intimate knowledge of the Red's labeling practices.

Ironically, Mears was also involved there and defended the branding and the theory that such a bat could be legitimate.

The whole thing is frightening for anyone other than the most accomplished collector who can ferret out such issues.

[Masimen]

Did this ever go anywhere? Seemed like a pretty big deal that involved a senior board member and it just kind of died and went away. Said board member has not responded which obviously doesn't bode well.

[Bravesfan]

Very interestng and disturbing thread.
So what happened to Greg? Is he still selling?

[bronx_burner]

Very interestng and disturbing thread.
So what happened to Greg? Is he still selling?

Appears that he is still selling and still doctoring items, sadly.

Here is a listing he currently has for a Paul O'Neill block letter bat.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170627480151

Some photos from his listing:
http://www.miamihost.net/ims/u/chachi/ebay/oneilld.jpg
http://www.miamihost.net/ims/u/chachi/ebay/oneilld1.jpg
http://www.miamihost.net/ims/u/chachi/ebay/oneilld2.jpg
http://www.miamihost.net/ims/u/chachi/ebay/oneilld3.jpg
http://www.miamihost.net/ims/u/chachi/ebay/oneilld4.jpg

It was actually a pretty nice bat before he ruined it too. Below is a photo of the bat as he bought it. It was autographed but not any more. It now has O'Neill's number 21 added to the knob. And the best is the new added fake tape residue. I think this guy has now fully cemented himself as one of the biggest dirtbags in the hobby.

http://www.miamihost.net/ims/u/chachi/ebay/rsz_1001.jpg

[bronx_burner]

Also, this bat did not come from a bat boy. That probably goes without saying at this point, but I guess its worth noting that the first time this bat was listed on ebay, it was noted as being acquired by a fan (the seller) from O'Neill at a game in Atlanta in September 1985. The seller was not a buyer or seller of GU or sports memorabilia.

[bronx_burner]

Seems Mr. Walker either got wind of this post or made a deal off ebay and the listing has been ended. Hopefully nobody took the bait. I guess we shall see if it pops up again at a later date. Still makes me sick that he had to destroy a prefectly nice bat for no good reason. That was the only block letter O'Neill I've seen.

[diamondicons]

On June 1st, 2011 I received a note from Greg Walker indicating that he wanted to explain why he made changes to the jersey. He also indicated he knew it was me that provided the data to Dave Grob that resulted in the revocation of the MEARS A10 LOA. He provided 3 photos of the jersey that he indicated were taken prior to submitting the jersey to MEARS for evaluation. The three photos included the front, back, and close-up of the right sleeve. He said that upon close inspection of the right sleeve of the jersey he was able to identify where a 1976 patch had been removed. So he removed the 1976 Centennial patch from his home Don Werner jersey and had it sewn onto the Rose jersey. In his message he felt that MEARS would identify the patch change and would deduct appropriate points for the restoration. Greg also indicated that he wrote the “2” on the Wilson label and removed the signature to give the appearance that the jerseys were not one in the same. What Greg failed to realize was the photo files provided pertinent data including when the photos were taken. The photos were taken Dec 28th, 2010; well after the MEARS evaluation. I also contacted a previous owner of the jersey and asked if there was any evidence of a patch having been removed from the jersey. He was certain there was not. The previous owners of the jersey that I am aware of are knowledgeable Reds collectors and one of them would have recognized if a patch had been removed. My message back to Greg was that he fabricated the story of the patch having been removed as nothing more than attempting to form the basis that the jersey was actually from the 1976 season which we know for certain it was not. His story would form the basis for his rationale to have the patch sewn on the jersey. My position was that he had removed the patch after MEARS evaluation, took the photos that now depicted a patch having been removed and then had the patch re-sewn onto the jersey. This was all done in an attempt to support his position that the subject jersey was in fact from 1976 and that he had done nothing more than restore the jersey with an original patch. Greg did not deny my accusation and indicated he was certain no one would believe his position that there was evidence of a patch previously on the jersey. He also indicated that it was time to sell the jersey that he should have left alone from the beginning.



I purchased the subject jersey from Greg and am currently in the process of fully documenting everything that has transpired on the jersey over the course of the last year+. The Centennial patch has been removed. Also, Greg indicated the "2" was written in non-permanent marker and he was able to remove it through washing.


If any forum members would like the documentation I am preparing that summarizes what had been done to the jersey and my research provided to Dave Grob and others, please send me an e-mail and I would be more than happy to share it with you.


One thing is certain...there will be no more modifications of the subject jersey. It will be fully documented in its current state for exactly what it is; not something it is not, as has been the case over the last year.


Mike

mlwills@knology.net