Are the Rockies Cheaters?

[Bondsgloves]

This is why I believe Carlos Gonzalez won't win the MVP. People rip players for steroids, corking bats, doctoring the baseball, or even the patriots for recording walk throughs and stealing play calls. Players and teams will continue to cheat and look for unfair advantages.

http://mlb.fanhouse.com/2010/09/25/did-tim-lincecum-get-a-juiced-ball-at-coors-field/?ncid=txtlnkusspor00000002

[skier14]

It is an interesting question. I do know the difference between this and steroids, or corking a bat is a pretty big one actually. It is not the players cheating, or the coaches, or manager for that matter (if it is actually going on in the first place).

The MLB is now overseeing the humidor, which they should have done all along. I am sure that will affect Carlos's MVP chances, but should it? He didn't cheat. There is no evidence of the Rockies cheating.

It's a different story if there is evidence proving this.

This argument is that the Rockies are putting balls not from the humidor into the game late in ballgames. This would explain the Rockies great numbers late in games. The one issue with that argument is that the Rockies have scored 369 Runs in the first 4 innings of games this season, and they have scored 372 in the last 5.

I have no opinion on whether the Rockies do this, the only thing I would say is that "Jim Tracy and the Rockies Management would never do something like this", but I know they wouldn't be aware if this were going on.

[MLB_Authentic]

Yes, yes they are.

[Manram]

The Rockies may be cheating, but it should not affect cargo's mvp chances. It's not like he is cheating or doing something that he can change

[Bondsgloves]

The Rockies may be cheating, but it should not affect cargo's mvp chances. It's not like he is cheating or doing something that he can change

Then his numbers are inflated and his team may have won more games. Don't numbers and a winning team, the most important part of being the mvp.

[skier14]

Then his numbers are inflated and his team may have won more games. Don't numbers and a winning team, the most important part of being the mvp.

Yes, but if he is doing nothing wrong in the first place, and there is no proof that the Rockies are cheating. He can't have the MVP not given to him on a Jon Miller hunch.

[kellsox]

Something to chew on...
Gonzalez #'s home/away in basically same amt of games and ab's

Avg:
Home- .390
Away .293

HR
Home- 25
Away- 8

RBI
Home- 73
Away- 41

[skier14]

Something to chew on...
Gonzalez #'s home/away in basically same amt of games and ab's

Avg:
Home- .390
Away .293

HR
Home- 25
Away- 8

RBI
Home- 73
Away- 41

He has much better home splits. This however, does not have anything to do with somebody from the Rockies organization possibly throwing in a ball not from the humidor in the 7th or 8th inning.

[lakeerie92]

He has much better home splits. This however, does not have anything to do with somebody from the Rockies organization possibly throwing in a ball not from the humidor in the 7th or 8th inning.

If they have ball that are not in the humidor it isn't just one person doing it that knows about it. The bat boys would have to be in on it along with most the people on the team. The bat boys deliver the balls to the umpire and would have to know which ones to use. It is a team cheating not one individual cheating for them. If it is true that is.

[skier14]

If they have ball that are not in the humidor it isn't just one person doing it that knows about it. The bat boys would have to be in on it along with most the people on the team. The bat boys deliver the balls to the umpire and would have to know which ones to use. It is a team cheating not one individual cheating for them. If it is true that is.

True, it is not one person, but it isn't the players and the manager. It would be the umpires assistant, clubhouse manager, batboys etc.

But it still is not the players cheating or knowing about it.

[lakeerie92]

True, it is not one person, but it isn't the players and the manager. It would be the umpires assistant, clubhouse manager, batboys etc.

But it still is not the players cheating or knowing about it.

It would be naive to think the players don't know about it. I especially think the pitching staff is away of what one feels like in case one stays in the umpires pouch until the bottom half of the inning and they get it. Otherwise it would almost negate the advantage.

[LastingsMilledge85]

They aren't cheaters from an "in-game" sense, it just sucks to be a pitcher at Coors because then each team's hitters have that advantage. From a season sense though, and if it is indeed true (although, if Jon Miller brought it up I'm not listening) then the stats do need to be considered for a title vote whether it's MVP, ROY, etc.

[jbsportstuff]

They aren't cheaters from an "in-game" sense, it just sucks to be a pitcher at Coors because then each team's hitters have that advantage. From a season sense though, and if it is indeed true (although, if Jon Miller brought it up I'm not listening) then the stats do need to be considered for a title vote whether it's MVP, ROY, etc.
This has been brough up before and there are several here who will jump all over these posts claiming that they are bunk. Frankly..the numbers don't lie.

[justinbittner220]

First off, I never heard anything about this. Would ESPN ever broadcast such an accusation? Also (This might be a dumb question), but can someone explain "the humidor" to me?

[LastingsMilledge85]

I'm not denying this claim, all I'm saying is that according to this the hitters have the edge while playing at Coors.

[rj_lucas]

Justin, here's a complete rundown:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-rockies-juicedballs

Jon Miller didn't break the story. It was first reported in the San Francisco Chronicle.

Tim Lincecum brought it to the attention of the Giants, who took the matter to the commissioner's office. The commissioner's office instructed he umpiring crews to monitor the Coors game balls more closely.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

[legaleagle92481]

So how is this CarGo's fault? Should he inspect the baseballs? as a team much benefit has not gone to the rox as they are going to likely finish in 3rd place in their division. CarGo has not exactely been setting homer records if my math is correct he has hit only two or three dingers all month. And oh another theory as to their late game success: Being above sea level my start to take its toll as the game goes on to other teams that are not as used to it as the Rockies. To the best of my knowledge no other team plays at such an altitude in mlb. The Phils alledegly stole signs a few years back, and noone took away Howard or Rollins' MVP or their WS title.

[LastingsMilledge85]

I don't think anyone is blaming Carlos Gonzalez, it's just that when it comes time to give out accolades; something like this should be considered.

[skier14]

Justin, here's a complete rundown:

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-rockies-juicedballs

Jon Miller didn't break the story. It was first reported in the San Francisco Chronicle.

Tim Lincecum brought it to the attention of the Giants, who took the matter to the commissioner's office. The commissioner's office instructed he umpiring crews to monitor the Coors game balls more closely.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

I actually think Jon Miller did break the story in a radio interview back in July.

[rj_lucas]

I actually think Jon Miller did break the story in a radio interview back in July.

If that's true I stand corrected. I assumed it had only occurred over the last few days (assuming it occurred at all).

If it can be proven there has been a premeditated and methodical attempt to undermine the legitimate outcome of these games, I would hope the commissioner's office takes significant punitive action.

You can argue that this did or did not help the Rockies (again, assuming it even occurred) but that's not the point. The same argument can be made about PEDs. I see no possible defense for secretly substituting the equipment used by your opponent -- over a period of MONTHS -- for the purpose of placing them at a disadvantage.

IMO, if this truly occurred, and has been going on for who knows how long, it calls into question the offensive numbers for the Rockies hitters, the numbers for their pitchers, and the wins total for the team.

If any of this is true, I think we're in Black Sox territory here (cheating to win, not lose, but same order of magnitude). Say it ain't so Troy.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

[xpress34]

1st - I find it ironic that this thread was started by a member named 'Bondsgloves'. If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

2nd - I have addressed this before and I'll address it again for those who are so quick to place blame without knowing what they are talking about...

The Humidor - just like a Cigar Humidor, the Humidor was put in place in order to keep the balls as close as possible to 'factory spec' (weight and size)as possible in a an arid, dry, desert climate. YES, contrary to popular belief, Denver is a DESERT climate, NOT a MOUNTAIN climate and is dry (low humidity) so when the balls are left out, they dry out and shrink and then they fly out of Coors Field like hitting small rocks with a bat. The Humidor keeps them at factory weight and size by storing them in a controlled environment. It does NOT work the other way - i.e. in a HUMID environment like Texas or Georgia, the extra water in the air (humidity) doesn't 'seep' into the balls and add weight. The leather works kind of like your skin - you can sweat water out in the heat, but when you get caught in the rain, it rolls off you - you don't soak it up and swell up. (BTW - for those who don't know, I used to work for Rawlings)

IF the Rockies were using 'non-humidor' balls for an advantage, the pitcher and the umpires would feel the difference immediately.

Also, if the Rockies are using balls to help themselves and their numbers are so skewed, why have they lost 5 of 6 since coming home and watching their Post Season dreams slip away. Yes, they are cheating to help themselves lose. :rolleyes: Really?!?!?!

John Miller did break the story and he has no F'n idea what he is talking about - nor do most writers and announcers I hear discussing the humidor as well as many members here who have no idea what it is or what it does.

If it will make people feel better, make the Umpires do what use to be their job and make them show up early again and prep (rub up) the balls and control them during the entire course of the game.

I'm sure with the new 'security' in place to watch the balls, that if things don't change, some other moron will saw the Rockies must be sneaking in during the dead of night and replacing the balls in the humidor so the Umps will grab the ones that give them an advantage.

The Rockies and any player that plays here will never get a fair shake because the biased media (East Coast / West Coast) as well as many of the members here want to have it both ways:

Players Numbers are inflated because they play at Coors Field (i.e. Bichette - screwed for 1995 MVP, Walker - ONLY Cardinal to hit in the 2004 WS, Holliday - screwed for 2007 MVP & still puts up Power Numbers in St Louis, Cargo / Tulo - will be screwed because they play at Coors Field) and then on the same hand say pitchers Numbers are fake because they Pitch at Coors Field with the Humidor (Ubaldo).

Now in a season where the Rockies haven't been able to break through even though they have been 1 game out of 1st TWICE, they are being accused of CHEATING - during a LOSING STREAK and by a pitcher in the middle of throwing a 2 Hitter??? :rolleyes: Again, REALLY?!?!? Where is the common sense in that train of thought.

Bonds - CHEATER. Positive test or not, unless he is a freak of nature, your cranium doesn't grow like that after you are 18-21 years old unless you're taking something.

Phillies - TEAM of CHEATERS. Against the Rockies no less. Using binoculars from the bullpen to 'check their catcher's positioning'... while he was BATTING against the Rockies in 2009 - also Chase Utley claiming he was hit and then telling Tulo how well he pulled the wool over the umps eyes on getting the call.

Yankees - HISTORY of CHEATERS - Clemens, A-Rod... now Jeter (See Utley above).

But now to see the comments here accusing EVERYONE involved with the team of Cheating - an allegation by the way that the Umpires even called ludicrous (see above comment about noticing a difference in the balls by Umps and Pitchers)

In fact, here is a direct quote from the article for those of you who didn't actually READ it and instead decided to just point fingers:


"Umpires have the balls in their possession, and they're the ones putting them in play," Courtney said. "The biggest thing is, the umpire sees the difference between humidor and non-humidor balls, and no umpire has said anything about having a concern about it."

Giants reliever Jeremy Affeldt, who pitched for the Rockies in 2006 and 2007, said he, unlike other Giants interviewed, can tell the difference between a ball stored in a humidor and a ball that's not. The humidor "keeps the leather from getting stiff and slippery and helps you get a better grip, and you throw a better breaking ball."

Without the humidor, a ball used at Coors Field would tend to be harder, lighter and drier, a hitter's dream.

That said, I'm sure the Rockies are making sure that if it's a pitcher who use to play here, they send in the 'Humidor' balls so there aren't any questions.

Am I bitter? You bet your ass I am. My NL Team has never gotten respect - from A-Hole Papelbon ('they're not even in our league') to the Coor's Field effect to now being accused of cheating by a guy I use to respect (Lincecum).

It's a bit too much to swallow.

My .02, but before people start putting forks in the Rox and labeling this team as cheaters, get some F'n proof.

- Chris

[lakeerie92]

The leather works kind of like your skin - you can sweat water out in the heat, but when you get caught in the rain, it rolls off you - you don't soak it up and swell up. (BTW - for those who don't know, I used to work for Rawlings)

Working for Rawlings or not that isn't necessarily the case. Ball get waterlogged very easlily. They absorb moisture which would make them heavier in a more humid climate. They may not get bigger but they do get heavier and I can prove that with a ball and a cup of water. As for the Rockies cheating, if you aren't cheating you aren't trying and to call Jeter a cheater for what he did and think that a the Rockies wouldn't do the same thing is ridiculous. Every player in MLB would do it and that is just baseball. Nothing is going to come of this and nothing is going to happen to the Rockies. Some people in the forum knew you would take offense and retaliate and probably only made the comments they did to see it.

[xpress34]

Working for Rawlings or not that isn't necessarily the case. Ball get waterlogged very easlily. They absorb moisture which would make them heavier in a more humid climate. They may not get bigger but they do get heavier and I can prove that with a ball and a cup of water.

Russ -

Water Logged if they are dunked and left in water, yes - so will the human body if it is left in a body of water. I am talking about absorbing moisture (humidity) out of the air. The leather on a baseball will not just 'absorb' the humidity out of the air and swell, but it will dry out in an arid climate. Just like your skin - if you go out in the desert, your skin will dry and tighten and crack, but if you go to Atlanta, you don't swell and absorb the humidity in the air. Same thing with rain. Many ballgames are played in and through rain and I have yet to see a ball swell from being simply rained on. That is what I am talking about.

As far as the cheating thing, I only stated the obvious to make a point, but for people to point fingers at the Rockies organization as a whole without any valid proof (again, why aren't they winning ALL of their home games - especially the 1 run and extra inning ones if they are swapping balls?) it's just like the members who jump on an auction without even consulting the seller to find out the facts and yes, it pisses me off.

I think from my NL MVP race forum, you should know that I try to be objective and fair (I've even tracked Infante to the best of my audibility) so 'loose cannons' shooting off their mouths without any facts to support their statements really gets my goat.

The saddest part about it is that no one cares if they damage the reputation of the team, the manager, or the players and in our society, perception is usually more accepted and believed than the truth when it is revealed.

Case in point from the 80's/90's - Anita Hill charges Supreme Court nominee Clarence Thomas of Sexual Harassment / Misconduct. She later admits to lying, but it doesn't change the damage to his reputation. If you ask people who are old enough to remember Clarence Thomas, I would bet 70-80% would say 'isn't he that judge that sexually assaulted that girl?' They easily forget or ignore that he was acquitted AND that Ms Hill admitted to lying and was charged with filing a false report. Why? Because we are a lazy society that finds it easier to take things at face value than to work to find out the truth.

Regardless of what comes out of this, the reputations of Dan O'Dowd, Jim Tracy, the Monforts and the whole of the Rockies organization will and have been damaged and or tarnished in some way through the simple perception that will remain in the public psyche long after this issue is no longer newsworthy and that's a shame that someone like HOFer John Miller couldn't NOT comment on something that he himself admitted he had no proof of having happened. But he did - and in a very public forum. He can backpedal and digress all he wants, but he can't undo the tarnish his comments have done. I guess that's really my point - it was irresponsible broadcasting on the part of someone who should definitely have checked his sources and facts before he spoke.

And because of his comments - and those of Lincecum - I will not be able to look at either of them the same way again so I guess it is kind of a two edged sword.

- Chris

[Bondsgloves]

Why are Rockies doctoring the balls to begin with?:rolleyes: MLB baseball didn't tell them to. So the Rockies can mess with the baseballs unsupervised?

John Milller a Hall of Fame broadcaster said there have been some talk from palyers and other major league teams that were suspicious.

Tim Lincecum one of the best pitchers in MLB who has thrown thousands of baseballs, noticed a difference in the ball. He wasn't making excuses, he dominated the Rockies. He asked for a new ball, because the ball that was thrown to him was juiced. He actually could tell the difference!

The numbers don't lie. The rockies numbers are substantially different at home than on the road.

I personally prefer they don't do the humidor at all. MLB didn't control it (which is bad...).


Introducing that kind of conditioning to any regulation ball is unnecessary in nearly every condition. It invites this kind of issue. It is literally like moving the fences a little every half inning for the home team.


Oh well, the Rockies are virtuallu eliminated from any playoff hopes. Attention has been brought to the issue, so if anything strange was going on, it probably won't happen again. I think Vooto has the MVp locked up anyway.

[Bondsgloves]

sorry for all the spelling errors

[kudu]

If the claim is that the humidor is used to keep the balls at factory specs because of the dry, desert climate, do the DBacks have a humidor?

[gingi79]

I was waiting for Chris to post because I knew in my heart of hearts that this was going to raise his blood pressure and his ire.

We live in a society that craves a scandal, people falling from grace, screwing up their lives and generally getting away with things until they are caught. More people watched the senate hearing on Steroids than hearings on Health Care, Education and illegal immigrants. We have entire television channels dedicated to following around pseudo-celebs hoping to see them do drugs, drive drunk, act in a deviant way and mess up their lives. Hell, Survivor has been on TV for over 10 years! Imagine watching people debase themselves for money for a decade. That is longer than many of the best, funniest and most classic shows have been on. Why? Because we like to see people doing stupid and illegal things.

In other words, we WANT the Rockies to cheat. Secretly of course. What would our mothers say if they knew we felt vindicated knowing the Patriots cheated during the same season they beat our favorite team? How about how suddenly MLB was on every station from CNN to Comedy Central to CMT when steroid users were coming out? People who thought Jose Canseco was just another B-lister on a VH1 show suddenly knew his name, face and believed everything he said. He said they all cheated, that sounds like a tasty piece of gossip, lets just believe him. Sure, he was right about a lot of it. But no one in mainstream America ever doubted him because we like seeing people who are spoiled getting kicked in the nuts on national TV.

And Chris was right about Anita Bryant. I totally forgot Judge Thomas was acquitted. Had you asked me last week, I would have said he had sexually attacked her. Point is, once the accusation is out of the bag, no one cares if it's true or not. That is until we forget it when the next bombshell drops.

[lakeerie92]

If the claim is that the humidor is used to keep the balls at factory specs because of the dry, desert climate, do the DBacks have a humidor?
No but there is a lot of talk about putting a humidor in Arizona for some of the same reasons.

[jobathenut]

XPRESS (chris)-When i first say this thread i of course thought of you.And i knew you would respond to it.But i wish you had not.Don't buy into it by responding to it.Its like when people rip on my team on here.And i have grown to just ignore it.Because even thought you defend your team with respect and mature words and thoughtful words.You are not always going to get them back.Some people just love to hate.And even though i know this is a forum and its about discussing things.Some things just are so silly,it's just stubid to give it marit by discussing.And john miller is the king of the stubid people.Bozo the clown has no idea what he is talking about.And the rockies should sue him for slander.He always makes it sound (as so many announcers do now days) that they are best friends with these players.They talk to you because they have to.Like they really like talking to a guy who knows nothing about the sport he is announcing.And i am so tired of people calling him a hall of famer or a legend.He announces games,big f-n deal alright.And he is not even any good at doing that.Listen to him sometime how much insight does HE bring to a game.And how much actually annoucing the game is he doing.But thats a whole other story.As watching games on tv has gone so downhillnow days.

[legaleagle92481]

Here is why this should have no effect on the MVP regardless of its truth or merit.

Ivan Rodriguez, Juan Gonzalez, Sammy Sosa, Barry Bonds, Arod, Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco. All won MVPs while using PEDs some like Bonds many times over. If you want to talk about team cheating add Rollins and Howard to that list. This unproven allegation even if true should not factor into the race at all. IMO Votto will win easily but because his team, which stunk for many years, made the playoffs mostly because of him, he put up stats that are top 5 in most if not all of the major stat categories and he is a great personal story and a very likeable guy but this should not affect CarGo at all.