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joelsabi
09-26-2010, 10:08 AM
i have been researching hats for awhile trying to see if there is any way to date new era hats. i really need more examples but here is my research up to this point. i try to get exemplars of player hats of players who have played for a specific team for 2 or less seasons so that the taggging can be pinpointed for a specific year. if you can help me out with other examples that would be helpful and I can update my list. also this covers regular hats and not bp or and not special hats. adding bp hats to the research really confused the situation so i discounted them in my search.

if you have any examples that seems to refute my findings please mention this also. sometime what is observed is not what is happening and my conclusions maybe be wrong. maybe a tag was introduced +/1 a year. this is a work in progress and feedback is appreciated.

thanks for your help in advance. any feedback is appreciated.

skier14
09-26-2010, 10:27 AM
Great work on this!

It will be very helpful.

Thanks,
Dustin

vballGuy
09-26-2010, 12:33 PM
Wow, Joel! Great work.

I have 4 examples that may be of interest to you:

1. Rickey Henderson Blue Jays cap from 1993. As you know, he only played half of a season with the Jays, so this example can specifically be attributed to 1993. I have a MOS certificate for this, so provenance is excellent.

2. Dave Winfiedl cap from 1992. He only played once season with the Jays in 1992, so this can also be attributed to a specific year.

3. Jesse Barfield 1989 cap. The reason why I was able to date this cap was because this is the first year that the Jays wore the navy blue caps as road caps. As you know, Barfield was traded mid-season, so the only option would be if he wore it in 1989. I had Barfied personally inspect this cap when I met him a few weeks ago -- so I am confident in its provenance.

4. Shannon Stewart 2000-2001 cap. The only reason why I was able to date it was because it came with a cert from Authentic Sports Investments, and was dated in late 2001. The Jays only started wearing this style of alternate cap in 2000, so the only possibility is 2000-2001.

Check out my photos at:

http://sports.webshots.com/album/578047229aCaulX

I have a few spring training caps, no sure whether or not they will be useful to you. Looking at what you've compiled, all tagging matches up with my examples. The only question mark is my 1992 Winfield example.

Please let me know what you think. I can provide additional photos of the inner tagging, if necessary.

vballGuy
09-26-2010, 12:36 PM
I should also mention that my 1992 Winfield example matches up with detailed photos that I have analyzed in a 1992 Blue Jays season large-size book. In all examples that I have seen, the size tag is not how you have shown it in your 1988-1993 column, and not in the 1992 example that you described. I'm sure there was some variance amongst different teams, but just thought I'd mention it. I'd be happy to scan in some of the photos from my book as well.

vballGuy
09-26-2010, 12:37 PM
I should also mention that my 1992 Winfield example matches up with detailed photos that I have analyzed in a 1992 Blue Jays season large-size book. In all examples that I have seen, the size tag is not how you have shown it in your 1988-1993 column, and not in the 1992 example that you described. I'm sure there was some variance amongst different teams, but just thought I'd mention it. I'd be happy to scan in some of the photos from my book as well.

Sorry, I meant to say that it matches up well with the example shown in your 1988-1993 column and NOT in the 1992 example shown.

sox83cubs84
09-26-2010, 02:32 PM
Nice work, Joel. I had some of the basic parameters down on this for a few years, but you've highlighted details I was not aware of. Great work!

Dave Miedema

joelsabi
09-26-2010, 02:45 PM
I should also mention that my 1992 Winfield example matches up with detailed photos that I have analyzed in a 1992 Blue Jays season large-size book. In all examples that I have seen, the size tag is not how you have shown it in your 1988-1993 column, and not in the 1992 example that you described. I'm sure there was some variance amongst different teams, but just thought I'd mention it. I'd be happy to scan in some of the photos from my book as well.


Thanks on the reply. Your hats look like great examples that would assist in the research. If you can take photos of your 4 hats at an angle that I can read the tags, that would be helpful. Some of your tags are folded backwards too and I do not want to guess what tags they are.

The samples from the 1992 Blue Jays large size book are interesting to me too. Scans would be helpful. I am not sure why the Blue Jays would be interested in photographing the inside of the hats but I might find something useful.

On the size tag being different on the 1988-1993 than what you have seen, are the size tag you have seen look like the 1985-1987 or 1993-1996 version?
Do you think you can track down some example and I will look back on my example. I will note this down tho. Thanks.

Those borderline years were hard to determine. Could there be variances at the breakpoints? I imagine yes. Tags are tags and hat are hats. I am sure the manufacturers used up all tags even if new tags were introduced and equipment managers didn’t throw away surplus hats just because it was at the end of the season.

joelsabi
09-26-2010, 02:52 PM
Nice work, Joel. I had some of the basic parameters down on this for a few years, but you've highlighted details I was not aware of. Great work!

Dave Miedema

Thanks Dave,

Coming from an expert like yourself, that's quite a compliment.

Rob L
09-26-2010, 05:26 PM
Nice. Here is another that I have referred to:

http://ballcapblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/chronology-of-new-era-cap-tags.html

sox83cubs84
09-26-2010, 05:44 PM
It would be good to remember that, just as jerseys from previous years/tag styles sometimes get used in a later given year, the same holds true for caps. When at MEARS, I wrote up some 2003-04 Colorado Rockies caps with team LOAs. Most were tagged with the 1999-2001 labels.

Dave Miedema

joelsabi
09-26-2010, 06:12 PM
Nice. Here is another that I have referred to:

http://ballcapblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/chronology-of-new-era-cap-tags.html

Thanks for the link. I will look to see how similar our findings were. I used some of your hats in my research. I pinpointed your Figgins cap to 2005 and I have checked several hats that had good provenance and had the white background on the tape and they are came up 2005 so I feel pretty confident it is not a coincidence.

Rob L
09-26-2010, 06:48 PM
Thanks for the link. I will look to see how similar our findings were. I used some of your hats in my research. I pinpointed your Figgins cap to 2005 and I have checked several hats that had good provenance and had the white background on the tape and they are came up 2005 so I feel pretty confident it is not a coincidence.

Awesome Joel. I'll be putting your thread link on mywebsite if that is cool with you.

joelsabi
09-26-2010, 06:57 PM
Awesome Joel. I'll be putting your thread link on mywebsite if that is cool with you.

Sure. Why not if you don't mind it still being in development.

joelsabi
09-26-2010, 07:14 PM
It would be good to remember that, just as jerseys from previous years/tag styles sometimes get used in a later given year, the same holds true for caps. When at MEARS, I wrote up some 2003-04 Colorado Rockies caps with team LOAs. Most were tagged with the 1999-2001 labels.

Dave Miedema

good point. carryover of tags would be common. i would not discount your cap as it comes in the previous tag period. Of course I would have concerns if it was two prior tag periods. remember it's one factor and it's very basic. cap size, provenance, and hat logo style match are more important imho.

Rob L
09-26-2010, 07:44 PM
Thanks for the link. I will look to see how similar our findings were. I used some of your hats in my research. I pinpointed your Figgins cap to 2005 and I have checked several hats that had good provenance and had the white background on the tape and they are came up 2005 so I feel pretty confident it is not a coincidence.

Awesome Joel. I'll be putting your thread link on mywebsite if that is cool with you.

vballGuy
09-26-2010, 07:50 PM
Thanks on the reply. Your hats look like great examples that would assist in the research. If you can take photos of your 4 hats at an angle that I can read the tags, that would be helpful. Some of your tags are folded backwards too and I do not want to guess what tags they are.

The samples from the 1992 Blue Jays large size book are interesting to me too. Scans would be helpful. I am not sure why the Blue Jays would be interested in photographing the inside of the hats but I might find something useful.

On the size tag being different on the 1988-1993 than what you have seen, are the size tag you have seen look like the 1985-1987 or 1993-1996 version?
Do you think you can track down some example and I will look back on my example. I will note this down tho. Thanks.

Those borderline years were hard to determine. Could there be variances at the breakpoints? I imagine yes. Tags are tags and hat are hats. I am sure the manufacturers used up all tags even if new tags were introduced and equipment managers didn’t throw away surplus hats just because it was at the end of the season.

Hi Joel. I'll try and email you some more detailed pics sometime tonight or tomorrow night. The size tag on my 1992 gamer is similar to the tag shown in your 1988-1993 row entry. So still within reason. It just doesn't match up well with your 1992 row entry.

The large Blue Jays photobook that I have doesn't have direct photos of the underside of the caps, however there are a few photos where various Blue Jays are holding their caps up, and you can clearly see the size tag in one of these photos. I'll scan this one and send it to you -- but it was merely to illustrate that: a) The underside brim colour (green) matches up with my gamer; and b) The size tag is similar to what you've shown in the 1988-1993 row entry.

joelsabi
09-26-2010, 08:04 PM
Hi Joel. I'll try and email you some more detailed pics sometime tonight or tomorrow night. The size tag on my 1992 gamer is similar to the tag shown in your 1988-1993 row entry. So still within reason. It just doesn't match up well with your 1992 row entry.



Thanks.

Like I said most of the samples from the 1992 range look like the 1988-1993 row.

I just like some of the sample I have from the 1992 season with these three combination of tags. One example is a White Sox cap for Scott Hemmond. He a perfect sample being not a star and having been traded in the middle of the season to Chicago and not being resigned in 1993. Great provenance too. But the more sample I have the better you can make an analysis of what is going on so I am leaving that up for now.

Rob L
09-26-2010, 08:35 PM
Not an expert, but the Figgins hat I have is definitely 2002-03. I'm can't say for sure, but the 2001-2005 hats apparently had both New Era tags during that era (if the blog I showed is correct). The overlap in years is definitely a possibility (both Joel and the blog state this). I'm definitely stoked though that Joel"s and the blog primers are now available. Finally, hats get there due!!!!

Tallyman77
09-27-2010, 11:08 AM
Not an expert, but the Figgins hat I have is definitely 2002-03. I'm can't say for sure, but the 2001-2005 hats apparently had both New Era tags during that era (if the blog I showed is correct). The overlap in years is definitely a possibility (both Joel and the blog state this). I'm definitely stoked though that Joel"s and the blog primers are now available. Finally, hats get there due!!!!
You are right Rob........hats are way overdue in getting recognition about their collectability in the hobby. It would also be great to know how many hat collectors there are that visit the forum and what exactly they are looking for, whether it be game worn examples, mint unused, particular teams, players, manufacturers, etc. It would be interesting and informative to know, so I may just create a thread for that. :)

-Walt
Evergreen7777@att.net

sox83cubs84
09-27-2010, 03:37 PM
Joel:

I just dug up my 2001 9/11 Kevin Young Pirates cap, given to me by Young after the last game of the season. It has the brown New Era tag you have ascribed to 2002-04. I tend to believe, based on my own research, that the brown tags were common (though not exclusive) in 2001.

Dave Miedema

Rob L
09-27-2010, 06:58 PM
Here's a 9-11-2009 cap worn by Chone Figgins. Multiple tag years and a white band:

Tigerfan
09-28-2010, 08:19 PM
Hi Joel,

Nice work on the hat tagging Primer.


I have been collecting game used hats for some time.
I have collected more than 60 game used hats mostly of Detroit Tigers players.
The caps in my collection range in time from 1927-1928, 1930's,1940's 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's 1990's, and 2000, 2006, 2007, 2009, &
2010. I do have some year specific caps such by New Era such as 1967, 1983, 1987, 1989, 1970, 1995, 2000, 20056, 2007, 2009, and 2010. I also have been able through comparison, allocated specific years to other caps.
I have cataloged each cap and have compared all details of each cap to other caps, to align by similar cap, by player & year. Of course the early caps up to the 1960's are tagged by Spalding, Wilson, Tim McAuliffe.
I am going back and making sure that the information I have recorded is correct and the with the same nomenclature for similar caps.
I was also comtemplating how I could put a catalog together with pictures of each cap, noting the differences similar to what you have done, just have not gotten their yet. I have to figure out how to take all the pictures and catalog them, which is something I am not up to speed as of now.

The few hats that I have that are not Tigers are (1) Twins, (2) Yankees, and one that you might be interested in, a mariners cap from 1997-1998 worn & autographed by Alex Rodriguez.

Your primer will be an aid to me, and hopefully I can provide you with some information that I have recorded that will enhance your primer.
send me your email and I will be glad to communicate any information to you.

Keep up the good work.

Bob Bellair
Tigerfan

bbellair7@comcast.net




I am sure that I can provide some information to you that may be of interest.

i'll just give a br

I have also been working

joelsabi
09-28-2010, 08:59 PM
Update primarily what happened from 1988 to 1992. I like the flow better on the MLB tags using 4 rows. If you have any questions about the chart, post it here.

The blog referred to earlier in the thread by Rob has no example of the company tag that I used for the 2005 row and I have some examples that were attributed to 2005. I am thinking maybe it's a carryover and that tag was introduced in 2004 instead but I do not have proof yet. The new "blue box" logo was introduced in 2005, according to the New Era website but I have not seen one yet that could have been used in 2005. The "blue box" logo is shown on the 2006 row.

Rob L
09-28-2010, 09:07 PM
Hey Joel,

I got a hold of the guy from the blog and showed him this thread. He loved it and wants to update his blog. You may want to hook up with him and combine the research. His name is Paul Carr and seems to be very cool. Keep up the good work!!this is an awesome thread.

Btw, received a 1991 Goose Gossage cap today. On the Diamond tag, the Authentic portion is a over the logo.

joelsabi
09-28-2010, 09:08 PM
Hi Joel,

Nice work on the hat tagging Primer.


I have been collecting game used hats for some time.
I have collected more than 60 game used hats mostly of Detroit Tigers players.
The caps in my collection range in time from 1927-1928, 1930's,1940's 1950's, 1960's, 1970's, 1980's 1990's, and 2000, 2006, 2007, 2009, &
2010. I do have some year specific caps such by New Era such as 1967, 1983, 1987, 1989, 1970, 1995, 2000, 20056, 2007, 2009, and 2010.
bbellair7@comcast.net


I am sure that I can provide some information to you that may be of interest.


I have also been working

Hi Bob,

Sounds like a very nice collection and look forward to your help to confirm and enhance the chart.

joelsabi
09-28-2010, 09:23 PM
Hey Joel,

I got a hold of the guy from the blog and showed him this thread. He loved it and wants to update his blog. You may want to hook up with him and combine the research. His name is Paul Carr and seems to be very cool. Keep up the good work!!this is an awesome thread.

Btw, received a 1991 Goose Gossage cap today. On the Diamond tag, the Authentic portion is a over the logo.

I have some good examples that show that the Authentic portion was in the logo for the first time 1991. So all the chart is saying is that the Diamond tagged changed in 1991.

joelsabi
09-28-2010, 09:26 PM
Hey Joel,

I got a hold of the guy from the blog and showed him this thread. He loved it and wants to update his blog. You may want to hook up with him and combine the research. His name is Paul Carr and seems to be very cool. Keep up the good work!!this is an awesome thread.

Btw, received a 1991 Goose Gossage cap today. On the Diamond tag, the Authentic portion is a over the logo.

That would be cool to get his input. Can you email me his email addy?

Rob L
09-28-2010, 09:27 PM
:(
I have some good examples that show that the Authentic portion was in the logo for the first time 1991. So all the chart is saying is that the Diamond tagged changed in 1991.

Yep. Didn't notice all the changes you had made when I posted. I believe that both you and Paul are correct that plus or minus a year based as New Era started making changes is very sensible.

joelsabi
09-28-2010, 09:40 PM
:(

Yep. Didn't notice all the changes you had made when I posted. I believe that both you and Paul are correct that plus or minus a year based as New Era started making changes is very sensible.

Yes. It does not invalidate the cap. It just says that the most recent tag at that time was not on this cap. Carryover, within reason, as Dave mentioned is very common. Some players like to use their caps for more than one year. Some get last year's caps from the frugal equipment manager. That is why other factors are more important when collecting caps.

joelsabi
09-29-2010, 11:31 AM
I have cataloged each cap and have compared all details of each cap to other caps, to align by similar cap, by player & year. Of course the early caps up to the 1960's are tagged by Spalding, Wilson, Tim McAuliffe.
I am going back and making sure that the information I have recorded is correct and the with the same nomenclature for similar caps.
I was also comtemplating how I could put a catalog together with pictures of each cap, noting the differences similar to what you have done, just have not gotten their yet. I have to figure out how to take all the pictures and catalog them, which is something I am not up to speed as of now.


Bob,

One of the most helpful things would be if you had already a column for the date that you bought the item or the date that each cap came into your collection and how you you obtain it. Hopefully that is something that you kept track of.

Tallyman77
09-30-2010, 07:51 PM
Also please remember that it was in 1992 that the MLB logo first appeared on the back of New Era caps.......this can also play a role in determining the year of early 90's caps that may be in question. :)

-Walt

Evergreen7777@att.net

Tallyman77
10-07-2010, 07:04 PM
Rob........maybe someone will put together a comprehensive guide to cap collecting and include all of the other manufacturers of caps like Rawlings, Spaulding, Tim McAuliffe, KM Pro, Wilson, Devon, Sports Specialties,, etc. The hobby really needs it as it would provide history and knowledge to those who have caps or want to start collecting them. :)

-Walt

Evergreen7777@att.net

LWMM
10-07-2010, 07:43 PM
The first picture (“MLB Tag”) for the 2007, 2008 and 2009 caps is a bit confusing. In the 2007 and 2009 pictures, it says “OFFICIAL ON-FIELD CAP”, while in the 2008 one, it says “ON-FIELD PERFORMANCE”. However, the description (“What changed”) for 2008 says that “Underneath the authentic logo, it says ‘OFFICIAL ON-FIELD CAP'”. Perhaps the 2007 and 2008 MLB Tag pictures got switched around? However, I see no mention anywhere of the tag that says “ON-FIELD PERFORMANCE”.

joelsabi
10-08-2010, 12:18 PM
The first picture (“MLB Tag”) for the 2007, 2008 and 2009 caps is a bit confusing. In the 2007 and 2009 pictures, it says “OFFICIAL ON-FIELD CAP”, while in the 2008 one, it says “ON-FIELD PERFORMANCE”. However, the description (“What changed”) for 2008 says that “Underneath the authentic logo, it says ‘OFFICIAL ON-FIELD CAP'”. Perhaps the 2007 and 2008 MLB Tag pictures got switched around? However, I see no mention anywhere of the tag that says “ON-FIELD PERFORMANCE”.

Updated "What Changed" column.

Photos of the tag from 2007 and 2008 were not interchanged. More sample hats are needed for 2007 thru 2009 as I requested in another thread.

Tallyman77
10-10-2010, 08:05 PM
Does anyone out there collect game used caps by companies other than New Era? :)

-Walt

Evergreen7777@att.net

erstad-collector
10-11-2010, 04:39 AM
I do believe the 2007 and 2008 hats are reversed as I have several Angels hats from those years. I know one of them has a cert from the Angels. I will see what the date is on it. I also don't think they would have one tagline in 2007 and then change it in 2008 and then go back to it in 2009. I will update you with pics when I get a chance.

One other hat I have is 1997 or later since the Angels logo is from 1997-2001 era but it has the 5950 tagging.

joelsabi
10-11-2010, 08:46 AM
I do believe the 2007 and 2008 hats are reversed as I have several Angels hats from those years. I know one of them has a cert from the Angels. I will see what the date is on it. I also don't think they would have one tagline in 2007 and then change it in 2008 and then go back to it in 2009. I will update you with pics when I get a chance.

One other hat I have is 1997 or later since the Angels logo is from 1997-2001 era but it has the 5950 tagging.

its possible. when i delete a row on the spreadsheet the photos in the row are not automativally deleted and the photos move to the next row (why is excel that that?). so it is possible that i manually deleted the wrong photos. i need to look back on the original files now.

it would be great to get more samples.

Ollie
10-11-2010, 10:44 AM
In case this is on any help.

2009 GU Yankees Cap

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2646/img2028i.jpg

joelsabi
10-15-2010, 11:30 AM
updated 2007, 2008 and new 2010 (thanks to member Hiramman)

The past 2007 sample were from special 2008 9/11 Yankee hats. (see Mariano cap photo) That was a special cap so I deleted the row from the worksheet but the image moved to the next row on the spreadsheet and I did not catch it. (why does excel work that way). Luckily I keep each draft and rename them and of course keep all the original photos I use in the worksheet.

Tallyman77
10-15-2010, 11:56 AM
Great work guys concerning the New Era Co..........hope someone will do the same for cap companies like Sports Specialties, Wilson, KM Pro, etc. The hobby is long overdue for this knowledge. :)

-Walt

Evergreen7777@att.net

erstad-collector
10-26-2010, 02:26 AM
Sorry it took me so long to get to taking a pic of this. This is a Howie Kendrick game-used cap I purchased at an auction from the Angels. The letter is dated from February 2008. I believe this cap is game-used from the 2007 season. Check out the photos:http://www.robrohm.com/game_used/2007_Kendrick_Hat.jpg

Insomniac186
01-29-2011, 02:13 PM
Hey everyone this is Paul, author of the Ballcap Blog. I've got a new tag for you to add to the chart. This tag is from the early to mid 1950s.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/insomniac186/IMG.jpg

xpress34
01-29-2011, 10:21 PM
Does anyone know WHEN New Era started making 'Cooperstown Collection' or 'Throwback' hats?

This might throw a monkey wrench into the works, but I just picked up a New Era with tagging that matches on the chart to the PRE 1983, but NOT to the 1950 one listed but the hat is a 1940-1945 style St Louis Browns:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/Memorabilia/Caps/BrownsHat1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/Memorabilia/Caps/BrownsHat2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/Memorabilia/Caps/BrownsHat3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/Memorabilia/Caps/BrownHats4.jpg

Did the Orioles ever do a Turn Back the Clock style using St Louis Browns?

The wool looks right for the age - including 'rust' type spots that I have seen on vintage wool jerseys but not on newer wool caps. Also, the piping down the crown seams isn't perfectly centered and the vent grommets aren't perfectly stitched like you see in newer and throwback style caps.

Thoughts???

All the best -

Smitty

xpress34
01-29-2011, 10:28 PM
Rob........maybe someone will put together a comprehensive guide to cap collecting and include all of the other manufacturers of caps like Rawlings, Spaulding, Tim McAuliffe, KM Pro, Wilson, Devon, Sports Specialties,, etc. The hobby really needs it as it would provide history and knowledge to those who have caps or want to start collecting them. :)

-Walt

Evergreen7777@att.net

Walt -

I had mentioned in a previous thread sometime back that research has shown (and New Era mentions it in the timeline on their site) that they actually made most ALL of th ehats and were doing Private Labeling for Wilson, McAullife, etc.

I am actually trying to get time to sit down with an usher from Coors Field that I know - Herb Shankman. Herb was a Minor League pitcher with the Boston Braves organization and knew Spahn and Sain and at Rockies Fest we got to talking and he personally knew Tim McAuliffe and said he would sit down with me so I could pick his brain and record his 'oral history' of what he remembers about McAuliffe and KM Pro and such...

I hope this materializes! Not just for the info, but Herb also said he still has his minor league pants that were handed down to him - one pair was Alvin Darks and one pair was Warren Spahns - and that he has Johnny Sain's 1948 Boston Braves jersey!!!

If I get to see it all, I will be photographing the hell out it!!!

All the best -

Smitty

sox83cubs84
01-29-2011, 11:08 PM
Does anyone know WHEN New Era started making 'Cooperstown Collection' or 'Throwback' hats?

Smitty:

One possible explanation:

In 1964, the Cardinals held a 20th Anniversary Old-Timers Game feturing players, and retro uniforms, of the 1944 World Series opponents...the Cardinals and the St. Louis Browns. Being a 1940-45 style uniforms, maybe the cap was made for that...?

Dave Miedema

This might throw a monkey wrench into the works, but I just picked up a New Era with tagging that matches on the chart to the PRE 1983, but NOT to the 1950 one listed but the hat is a 1940-1945 style St Louis Browns:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/Memorabilia/Caps/BrownsHat1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/Memorabilia/Caps/BrownsHat2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/Memorabilia/Caps/BrownsHat3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/Memorabilia/Caps/BrownHats4.jpg

Did the Orioles ever do a Turn Back the Clock style using St Louis Browns?

The wool looks right for the age - including 'rust' type spots that I have seen on vintage wool jerseys but not on newer wool caps. Also, the piping down the crown seams isn't perfectly centered and the vent grommets aren't perfectly stitched like you see in newer and throwback style caps.

Thoughts???

All the best -

Smitty

!!

xpress34
01-29-2011, 11:25 PM
!!

Dave -

!! exactly! I have been scouring the web and I can find remakes of the 1908 Browns (the 'flor d lis design) and the later Browns, but apparently, no one evr made a remake of this style which was worn during their WS year.

The hat came out of a baseball display in an estate in Louisville, KY.

I'm thinking I might have a legit deal here... thoughts?

- Smitty

xpress34
01-29-2011, 11:28 PM
Dave -

!! exactly! I have been scouring the web and I can find remakes of the 1908 Browns (the 'flor d lis design) and the later Browns, but apparently, no one evr made a remake of this style which was worn during their WS year.

The hat came out of a baseball display in an estate in Louisville, KY.

I'm thinking I might have a legit deal here... thoughts?

- Smitty

Dave -

I just saw your other comments - they were in the BLUE inside my quote that you copied... :o

Even if it's a 1964 'throwback', I'm quite happy with it...

especially for the price!

- Smitty

Insomniac186
01-30-2011, 12:01 AM
I have gathered that New Era always made reproductions (throwbacks). I have a New Era 1950s Brooklyn Dodgers cap that was made in the 1960s for and old timers game. I have a 1969 San Diego Padres cap made in 1984, and a number of other remakes made before they got rid of there old cap machines in the late 80s. Just let me know if anyone wants to see pictures.

I was wondering who was gonna get that "Browns" cap on eBay, I came very close to buying it many times but others were a priority. Glad to see it's going to a good home!

Insomniac186
04-07-2011, 01:09 AM
I have been studying the tags religiously for the past couple of weeks, this is what I have from the early days until 1996. I have checked and re-checked these tags to make sure the years are correct, except for the early years which may be impossible to find out. If anyone has anything to ad, please contact me. I am working on 1997 to present (it will include the taping), give me a couple of weeks at the most for those.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/insomniac186/NETAGSEarlyDaysto1987.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/insomniac186/NETAGS1988to1996.jpg

Tallyman77
07-17-2011, 03:55 PM
Actually, the Diamond Collection label started appearing on NEW ERA caps in 1986 and not 1988.....this can be verified by going to "New Era Timeline" and seeing what happened within the company in the 1980's. Also please note that the MLB logo on the backs of New Era caps first appeared in the 1992 season. This further assists in helping someone pinpoint a date for caps with certain labeling and styles. :) .

-Walt

Tallyman77

Rob L
07-17-2011, 05:43 PM
Actually, the Diamond Collection label started appearing on NEW ERA caps in 1986 and not 1988.....this can be verified by going to "New Era Timeline" and seeing what happened within the company in the 1980's. Also please note that the MLB logo on the backs of New Era caps first appeared in the 1992 season. This further assists in helping someone pinpoint a date for caps with certain labeling and styles. :) .

-Walt

Tallyman77

Hey Walt,

Can you email me at loefflerrd@cox.net?

I can't find your email address.

Thanks,

Tallyman77
07-23-2011, 08:21 PM
Rob......nice pickup on the Coane Dodger cap. They don't come around too often. It looks like it has a number under the bill too. Way to go! :)

-Walt

Tallyman77

Evergreen7777@att.net

sox83cubs84
02-02-2012, 08:02 PM
I have been studying the tags religiously for the past couple of weeks, this is what I have from the early days until 1996. I have checked and re-checked these tags to make sure the years are correct, except for the early years which may be impossible to find out. If anyone has anything to ad, please contact me. I am working on 1997 to present (it will include the taping), give me a couple of weeks at the most for those.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/insomniac186/NETAGSEarlyDaysto1987.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/insomniac186/NETAGS1988to1996.jpg

Paul:

I just acquired a Scot Thompson GW Cubs cap signed and dated by Thompson to 1981, It has the MLB licensee tag that the above primer attributes to no earlier than 1983. Any thoughts on this?

Dave Miedema

Insomniac186
02-03-2012, 01:14 AM
Dave, upon further research it appears that those MLB tags started showing up in 1982, since I saw an authenticated game used 1982 World Series cap with the MLB tag. I haven't seen anything that is from 1981 "for sure" that has the MLB tag, but I suppose it's possible. I believe it was 1982 when Sports Specialties joined the on-field MLB cap market and made themselves the first MLB "licensee", then New Era and Roman Pro quickly followed suit.

sox83cubs84
03-29-2012, 01:01 PM
Here' a thought for the capresearchers: the label designs on New Era 39/30 BP caps. The earlier BP caps (pre-2003) were also 59/50s (Like the gamers) and used he same tags as the game versions. Beginning in 2003 the labels were printed directly on the sweat band, and trying to determine if and when changes were made in the designs would be a plus. I have a few obtained directly from players, but can't post them. Anyone else want to dig into this?

Dave Miedema

Insomniac186
10-23-2012, 11:18 PM
Hey folks, here is the set of tags for 2012 for those that didn't know. Rather drastic changes to the New Era tag and size tag compared to years past. However, Dave (sox83cubs84) and I discussed that we have seen some caps with the 2010/2011 tags that were used this season, so some teams likely used leftover stock for those years.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c336/insomniac186/2012tags.jpg

sox83cubs84
10-24-2012, 08:22 PM
Hey folks, here is the set of tags for 2012 for those that didn't know. Rather drastic changes to the New Era tag and size tag compared to years past. However, Dave (sox83cubs84) and I discussed that we have seen some caps with the 2010/2011 tags that were used this season, so some teams likely used leftover stock for those years.



The "Fly Your Own Flag" slogan is new to 2012 tagging.

Dave Miedema

Insomniac186
10-25-2012, 12:44 AM
The "Fly Your Own Flag" slogan is new to 2012 tagging.

Dave Miedema

I meant to say that, hahaha. Wish we could edit posts! Thanks for posting that Dave.

New Era has dropped "Cool Base" completely. I bleieve it is just a Majestic thing now. New Era is now going with "NE Tech" "CoolEra" & "SolarEra", but they are only mentioned on the visor stickers when purchased new in retail.

suave1477
10-25-2012, 03:26 PM
One thing im surprised no one here mentioned unless I missed it somewhere but one thing that especially dates the caps of when the colors changed under the brim.

I believe in the 80's to the early 90's the under brim was Gray - early 90's they switched it to green and then in recent years it was switched to black.

If someone can pinpoint when the color of the under brims were changed that can help date the caps.

Insomniac186
10-25-2012, 08:46 PM
One thing im surprised no one here mentioned unless I missed it somewhere but one thing that especially dates the caps of when the colors changed under the brim.

I believe in the 80's to the early 90's the under brim was Gray - early 90's they switched it to green and then in recent years it was switched to black.

If someone can pinpoint when the color of the under brims were changed that can help date the caps.

The first team to switch to gray undersides were the Reds in the 1960s. The Giants were one of the next teams to switch, and then the White Sox and a few others. The last NL hold-out (I believe) was the Cubs, going gray in 1994. The Blue Jays, Twins, and Yankees held out until the 1995 season. The switch for all remaining teams with green to switch to gray in 1995 was insisted by New Era.

The Angels were the first team to change to black, around the late 90s. 2007 was when all teams changed to black.

joelsabi
11-20-2012, 11:27 PM
The first team to switch to gray undersides were the Reds in the 1960s. The Giants were one of the next teams to switch, and then the White Sox and a few others. The last NL hold-out (I believe) was the Cubs, going gray in 1994. The Blue Jays, Twins, and Yankees held out until the 1995 season. The switch for all remaining teams with green to switch to gray in 1995 was insisted by New Era.

The Angels were the first team to change to black, around the late 90s. 2007 was when all teams changed to black.

underbills is another factor. To add to this, the Pirates were the first to use red in 2001.

Insomniac186
11-27-2012, 02:03 AM
underbills is another factor. To add to this, the Pirates were the first to use red in 2001.

Yes indeed, it was for a short-lived alternate cap. I believe there were different colored undervisors for the "Turn Ahead The Clock" promotion back in 1999 as well. Minor League teams also had different colored undervisors, I have a Bakersfield Blaze cap from 2006 with orange.

All teams are now strictly using only black since 2007 for non-BP caps, with the exception of a few Minor League teams using leftover stock with gray undervisors in 2007. I also believe there are one or two players, one of which played (or still plays) for the Rangers that demands on using caps with gray undervisors. Also, most official team player photos have the players wearing caps with gray undervisors, even as recently as this year (Giants and A's, for example).

All of these changes are "innovations" by New Era. One wonders how much on-field caps would be different today if New Era had some competition.

Roady
02-26-2013, 12:01 PM
What about this Mark Teixeira signed hat?
The MLB hologram # is BB063593 and is listed as a signed cap from Texas Rangers signing on May 29, 2006.
The hat clearly looks game worn. It is 100% wool.

New Era 50th anniversary was in 2004.

I figured it could be a 2005 hat and New Era sent some old stock to Texas in 2005. I would not think it would be sent 2 years later in 2006 but who knows.

Or could this be a hat from 2004 and Teixeira just cleaned out his locker for the signing?

Any ideas?

Roady
02-26-2013, 12:38 PM
I should have stated that New Era's 59fifty hats anniversary was in 1994, not the company itself.

Roady
02-26-2013, 12:39 PM
I meant in 2004 not 1994. :o

joelsabi
02-28-2013, 11:54 PM
I meant in 2004 not 1994. :o

Not sure what to say but that this is a retail hat. there the main difference between a retail and on field caps is that the tag says "genuine merchandise" while the other says Authentic. The MLB authentication is for the signature not the game usage.

Roady
03-01-2013, 12:21 AM
Not sure what to say but that this is a retail hat. there the main difference between a retail and on field caps is that the tag says "genuine merchandise" while the other says Authentic. The MLB authentication is for the signature not the game usage.
Yeah I know.
The way you see it is the way it came from MLB auctions.
The 23 inside was already there as well as the sweat stains.
A very strange hat indeed.

joelsabi
11-09-2013, 10:48 AM
Updated. See first post for earlier tags

hiramman
11-13-2013, 12:51 PM
Joel - the tags you are showing for 2010-2011 were worn in Atlanta during the 2012 season. I recently purchased 24 game used caps directly from the Braves and they assured me they were all from 2012 and some had writing inside with nicknames, etc. that verified they were from the 2012 season. Everyone, all 24 caps had your 2010-2011 tagging.

rdeversole
11-20-2013, 02:37 PM
So if I encounter a hat purported to be from 2002 and it has what you picture as the 2005 Company Tag (without made in the usa) and the Taping is the white background as shown, then I should be confident the hat can only be a 2005?

joelsabi
11-21-2013, 12:37 PM
So if I encounter a hat purported to be from 2002 and it has what you picture as the 2005 Company Tag (without made in the usa) and the Taping is the white background as shown, then I should be confident the hat can only be a 2005?

Sorry I did some quick research to get more samples. Thats one of the hard parts of keeping to my methodology (from first post, "i try to get exemplars of player hats of players who have played for a specific team for 2 or less seasons so that the taggging can be pinpointed for a specific year"). I think its too rigid and some great examples of player for have been with a team over two years were not taken into consideration. Adding these to the samples and also looking at the chronology history provided by New Era's website I have changed my position on these two periods

2001-2002 Made in USA
2003-2005 Globalization

New era opened other manufacturing places in 2003 and it makes sense using the additional examples and the history provided in website.

The error of extending the tag of the made in USA to 2004 was due to an exemplar with excellent provenance that most likely used old invertory.

There is an example of 2002 hat that had the Global Tag that was from the World Series so possibly the Global tag (without the made in USA tag)was introduced late 2002 but just haven't had time to valid it.

For me, it been awhile looking at hats, checking to see whether the primer holds true and sometime getting away and revisiting allows perception to be removed and/or refreshed.

If you have a example that does not fit the primer please post or email me.

rdeversole, please email me or post here. i did additional research because you are a long time member and wanted to make sure you did not pass an opportunity just because of the primer.

rdeversole
11-21-2013, 12:54 PM
Email sent - thanks!

Insomniac186
12-01-2013, 01:51 PM
I've noticed that sometimes changes on the tags happen late in the season. And the case with hiramman and the Braves caps, they are surely leftover team stock that was issued to those players for the season. It happens. I have a bunch of 2012 MiLB caps that have the older tags.

I just saw some 2013 Postseason Oakland A's caps had 2010-11 tags on them for sale at a local store. They were leftover factory stock that simply had the patches applied so that New Era could get the order filled faster. I wish I'd taken a picture. I wonder if the team issued caps are the same. Anyone get any from the recent MLB auctions?

Perhaps the primer should mention that the 2009 though 2011 Stars N' Stripes caps had white tags and sweatbands. Maybe just a note? They're the same tags, just white. Also, a note for 2013 tags; all 2013 caps that were made in China (the new BP/Spring Training caps, certain Turn Back The Clock caps) lack the "OFFICIAL ON-FIELD CAP" text underneath the Authentic Collection logo. I'll take some pictures when time allows.

joelsabi
12-04-2013, 08:04 PM
I've noticed that sometimes changes on the tags happen late in the season. And the case with hiramman and the Braves caps, they are surely leftover team stock that was issued to those players for the season. It happens. I have a bunch of 2012 MiLB caps that have the older tags.

Perhaps the primer should mention that the 2009 though 2011 Stars N' Stripes caps had white tags and sweatbands. Maybe just a note? They're the same tags, just white. Also, a note for 2013 tags; all 2013 caps that were made in China (the new BP/Spring Training caps, certain Turn Back The Clock caps) lack the "OFFICIAL ON-FIELD CAP" text underneath the Authentic Collection logo. I'll take some pictures when time allows.


MILB hats have different tags so its not included in the findings.

from the original post: "this covers regular hats and not bp or and not special hats. adding bp hats to the research really confused the situation so i discounted them in my search"

sox83cubs84
07-17-2014, 10:34 PM
Updated. See first post for earlier tags

I got a 2014 BP cap from a Phillies coach a couple of weeks ago, and the tagging has only 1 difference from the 2012-13 version, that being the absence of the "OFFICIAL ON-FIELD CAP" line under the MLB logo.

Dave Miedema

sox83cubs84
07-21-2014, 11:29 PM
I received a team-issued 2014 4th of July cap from a White Sox coach today. Like the Phillies BP cap, it, too, lacks the "Official On-Field Cap" on the MLB logo tag.


Dave Miedema

sox83cubs84
08-23-2015, 08:48 PM
Bob,

One of the most helpful things would be if you had already a column for the date that you bought the item or the date that each cap came into your collection and how you you obtain it. Hopefully that is something that you kept track of.

Joel:

Can you please send me any photos you have of pre-1970 Spaldding CAP tags? Or print them here? I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Dave Miedema
sox83cubs84@hotmail.com

sox83cubs84
03-09-2016, 04:51 PM
I picked up a Dave Clark Tigers TBTC cap from a 2015 game via MLB Auctions. It appears that the tag designs have gone back to wht ws used in the 2012-13 time frame. (See post #68 from Joel S.)

Dave Miedema

sox83cubs84
07-08-2016, 06:48 PM
Referring again to post #68 photos, I compared the White Sox 2016 Mother's Day cap tagging on the Mark Salas lid I just received to the 2012-13 tag photos. The MLB and size tags are the same, but the New Era tag has no print beneath the company logo.

Dave Miedema

sox83cubs84
10-03-2016, 04:20 PM
Referring again to post #68 photos, I compared the White Sox 2016 Mother's Day cap tagging on the Mark Salas lid I just received to the 2012-13 tag photos. The MLB and size tags are the same, but the New Era tag has no print beneath the company logo.

Dave Miedema

The Twins GU cap I received from Eddie Guardado yesterday is tagged in identical fashion to the Salas lid.

Dave M.

sox83cubs84
01-02-2018, 11:17 PM
Dave, upon further research it appears that those MLB tags started showing up in 1982, since I saw an authenticated game used 1982 World Series cap with the MLB tag. I haven't seen anything that is from 1981 "for sure" that has the MLB tag, but I suppose it's possible. I believe it was 1982 when Sports Specialties joined the on-field MLB cap market and made themselves the first MLB "licensee", then New Era and Roman Pro quickly followed suit.

I ran across another 1981 cap with the MLB tag present. Since my PC won't post eBay photos onto this site, I direct you to eBay item 152850905287 currently open for bids. The cap is a style last used in 1981, and is a common player (Bob Molinaro) that looks to be game used from the photos. Can you, Tallyman, or any other contributors to this thread check this out and post your thoughts (and maybe post the appropriate photos, also?) Thanks.

Also, the item is misdated by the seller as 1976.

Dave Miedema

sox83cubs84
02-20-2018, 10:23 PM
I just got in a 2017 common player's Brewers cap. It is the same in tagging design as the Mark Salas White Sox cap I reference a few posts earlier. Compared to the 2012-13 label (the most recent I can find pictured in this thread), the tag, like 2016's, has no print under the New Era logo.

Dave M.

Tallyman77
05-17-2018, 07:23 PM
Dave.....please double check that Ebay item # or give me the seller.........I am not pulling that cap up.

Thanks,

-Walt

Tallyman77

sox83cubs84
05-17-2018, 09:03 PM
That was a few months ago, Walt...I have no means of finding it again, either.

Dave M.

Tallyman77
05-18-2018, 10:52 AM
Sorry about that Dave.........I didn't even check the date on that post.

-Walt

Tallyman77