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View Full Version : NL MVP Race should go to the wire!!!!



xpress34
08-29-2010, 11:16 PM
As of the end of play today, there is a virtual 3 way tie for MVP and the potential that ANY of the three could win the Triple Crown!

Joey Votto:

Runs - 91 Hits - 146 TB - 270 HR - 32 RBI - 93 AVG - .325

Albert Pujols:

Runs - 92 Hits - 154 TB - 292 HR - 35 RBI - 95 AVG - .320

Carlos Gonzalez:

Runs - 86 Hits - 153 TB - 279 HR - 29 RBI - 90 AVG - .326

(TRIPLE CROWN LEADER #'s are in BOLD)

It's promising to be an exciting final month for more than just the pennant chases!!!

- Chris

xpress34
08-29-2010, 11:20 PM
I meant to add that the Triple Crown categories are close enough between the three to make for an exciting finish!!!

AVG is only a .006 difference from Top to Bottom

RBI is only a 5 difference from Top to Bottom

HR is only a 6 difference from Top to Bottom

- Chris

legaleagle92481
08-30-2010, 12:04 AM
Pujols will take it again. Gonzalez and Votto both will not be on playoff teams. Gonzalez is a great story , amazing year but he has no realistic shot at the tc because to make up six homers at this point is almost impossible unless Pujols gets hurt. Even if Pujols hits only 4 homers rest of the year, Gonzalez would have to hit 11 to top him and 11 for any player in a month is a steep task. I think Gonzalez will win the batting title and be the one person stopping Albert from a Triple Crown (I think he will win the other two categories). I can't see Votto pulling ahead of Pujols in either Hrs or RBIS as the pennant race heats up.

lakeerie92
08-30-2010, 12:35 PM
Omar Infante is going to win the batting title, and Albert Pujols is the one on a team that won't make the playoffs, not Joey Votto.

xpress34
08-30-2010, 12:42 PM
Gonzalez and Votto both will not be on playoff teams.
What???

The Reds are FIVE games ahead of St Louis right now... and you're saying Votto won't be on a Playoff team???

And if you think that St Louis will gain 5 games and win the Division, then it's plausible that the Rockies gain 4.5 and take the Wild Card.

Your statement makes no sense.

If it's close, the voting will go Pujols' way because of his name and Cargo will be the most overlooked because he plays for the Rockies.

Cargo has a good chance pass Pujols and Votto on the RBIs but I agree that the HR lead is the tough nut to crack.

- Chris

xpress34
08-30-2010, 12:54 PM
Omar Infante is going to win the batting title, and Albert Pujols is the one on a team that won't make the playoffs, not Joey Votto.
Hahaha that's funny!

The Braves have 29 games left to play and the qualifier is 502 Plate Appearances.

Infante has 357 right now (ABs + BB + IBB) so he is 145 PAs shy.

At an avg of 3.1 PAs a game (times 29) he will have 89.9 PAs the rest of the season if he plays every game all game.

Even at 4.1 PAs per game he would end up short with just 118.9 more PAs.

He would need to make 5.1 PAs EVERY Game for the REST of the season to make his 502 for the year. That would give him 147.9 more PAs. Just barely more than enough to qualify.

Sorry to shoot that down, but that is FACTUAL based reality.

- Chris

lakeerie92
08-30-2010, 01:26 PM
At that point he is penalized as going 0 for whatever plate appearences he is missing to qualify at 502. With a 14 point lead he will still proabably win the batting title. That too is FACTUAL.

legaleagle92481
08-30-2010, 01:59 PM
What???

The Reds are FIVE games ahead of St Louis right now... and you're saying Votto won't be on a Playoff team???

And if you think that St Louis will gain 5 games and win the Division, then it's plausible that the Rockies gain 4.5 and take the Wild Card.

Your statement makes no sense.

If it's close, the voting will go Pujols' way because of his name and Cargo will be the most overlooked because he plays for the Rockies.

Cargo has a good chance pass Pujols and Votto on the RBIs but I agree that the HR lead is the tough nut to crack.

- Chris

5 games is nothing with a month and change left to play. They have 3 head to head games left. The Cards have much, much more experience and the better overall team and superior coaching. The Mets blew a 7.5 game lead with 17 games to play once so five with over a month is not a huge deal. The Reds will fold in September/October of that I am confidant.

xpress34
08-30-2010, 06:31 PM
At that point he is penalized as going 0 for whatever plate appearences he is missing to qualify at 502. With a 14 point lead he will still proabably win the batting title. That too is FACTUAL.

I forgot about the 'backdoor' rule, but he will still have to maintain where he is now for the rest of the season and taking an 0 for XX added to the average could drop it like a rock.

Based on his current pace, he has approximately 1.12 hits per game played (115 hits / 102 games played). That projects to 35.5 more hits so lets call it 151 hits. (I missed the Oct games earlier, so there are 32 games left, not 29)

If he comes up even 20 PAs shy, his average drops like a rock. If he gets 482 PAs with a projected 151 hits, his BA drops to .313. At 502 PAs it drops to .300.

I'm not saying he can't do it, but the numbers don't project well unless he gets a lot of PAs with BB, IBB, HBP, etc. that don't affect his Avg.

If he stays on his current pace of avg 4.9 PAs a game, he will get to 502 on his own, but even then if he stays on his avg of 1.12 hits per game, as stated above, he drops .041 points to .300.

Like Cargo, Infante will have to hit a hot streak to keep his hopes alive. Staying on the pace he is on, his avg will steadily drop.

- Chris

xpress34
08-30-2010, 06:34 PM
5 games is nothing with a month and change left to play. They have 3 head to head games left. The Cards have much, much more experience and the better overall team and superior coaching. The Mets blew a 7.5 game lead with 17 games to play once so five with over a month is not a huge deal. The Reds will fold in September/October of that I am confidant.

So 5 games is nothing but the 4.5 for the Rockies for the Wild card is insurmountable??? Therefore keeping Cargo out of the playoffs???

Counselor -you should know that you can't make an a argument for one side of the court without giving equal time to the other which is exactly what you are stating.

The Rockies have a history of getting hot in September and the Giants and Phillies aren't untouchable either.

lakeerie92
08-30-2010, 06:51 PM
I forgot about the 'backdoor' rule, but he will still have to maintain where he is now for the rest of the season and taking an 0 for XX added to the average could drop it like a rock.

Based on his current pace, he has approximately 1.12 hits per game played (115 hits / 102 games played). That projects to 35.5 more hits so lets call it 151 hits. (I missed the Oct games earlier, so there are 32 games left, not 29)

If he comes up even 20 PAs shy, his average drops like a rock. If he gets 482 PAs with a projected 151 hits, his BA drops to .313. At 502 PAs it drops to .300.

I'm not saying he can't do it, but the numbers don't project well unless he gets a lot of PAs with BB, IBB, HBP, etc. that don't affect his Avg.

If he stays on his current pace of avg 4.9 PAs a game, he will get to 502 on his own, but even then if he stays on his avg of 1.12 hits per game, as stated above, he drops .041 points to .300.

Like Cargo, Infante will have to hit a hot streak to keep his hopes alive. Staying on the pace he is on, his avg will steadily drop.

- Chris
The math doesn't add up. You are saying 1.12 hits per game, but you are not factoring in that he spent the early part of the season coming in in pinch hit roles. That would be one at bat. You can't average games played with hits to tabulate that. That is why based on the math alone of him continuing at 1.12 hits a game his average still dropped 30 points on the math. Did this make sense?

He does have to maintain a good bit to stay there and I will be surprised if he wins it, but as a Braves fan it would be nice for him to win the batting title and get some vindication for all the nay sayers who complained about his all star selection.

xpress34
08-30-2010, 07:41 PM
The math doesn't add up. You are saying 1.12 hits per game, but you are not factoring in that he spent the early part of the season coming in in pinch hit roles. That would be one at bat. You can't average games played with hits to tabulate that. That is why based on the math alone of him continuing at 1.12 hits a game his average still dropped 30 points on the math. Did this make sense?

He does have to maintain a good bit to stay there and I will be surprised if he wins it, but as a Braves fan it would be nice for him to win the batting title and get some vindication for all the nay sayers who complained about his all star selection.


I agree with where you're coming from, but the exact thing you are saying is also why you can really only use the Avg formula to get an idea of where he might end up. If he doesn't play every day, every game for the entire game (i.e. he pinch hits, pinch runs, etc) his avg hits per game will balance out. Unfortunately, there is no stat for Innings played by a player - just games -and unlike pitchers I can't find a games started stat either to get a better picture.

I wish them all the best and hope to see a very good race to the end...

- Chris

lakeerie92
08-30-2010, 08:04 PM
That is a valid point too.

legaleagle92481
08-30-2010, 09:15 PM
So 5 games is nothing but the 4.5 for the Rockies for the Wild card is insurmountable??? Therefore keeping Cargo out of the playoffs???

Counselor -you should know that you can't make an a argument for one side of the court without giving equal time to the other which is exactly what you are stating.

The Rockies have a history of getting hot in September and the Giants and Phillies aren't untouchable either.

I didn't mention them because they have to jump three teams and imo the Phils don't choke. The Phils have gotten this far with most of their key guys being on the DL for one streach or another but now they are all back. They have won the NL two years in a row, have a loaded team of stars with pressure experience, so I just cannot see them coughing it up. Which is why I didn't mention the WC for the Reds or Cards earlier as well. The Rocks may very well get hot but it won't be enough.

xpress34
08-31-2010, 01:22 AM
I didn't mention them because they have to jump three teams and imo the Phils don't choke. The Phils have gotten this far with most of their key guys being on the DL for one streach or another but now they are all back. They have won the NL two years in a row, have a loaded team of stars with pressure experience, so I just cannot see them coughing it up. Which is why I didn't mention the WC for the Reds or Cards earlier as well. The Rocks may very well get hot but it won't be enough.

The Rockies too have had major parts out on the DL all season long including 3/5s of their Starting Rotation (Tulo, Cargo, Fowler, Helton, Francis, Cook, Dela Rosa)- it's not like the Phils are the only team to deal with that - plus losing their Team President Keli McGregor the 1st week of the season.

I guess we'll just have to see how it all plays out... Phils did choke again tonight with their ACE (Halladay) on the hill in LA. They got 1 hit.

I'm just saying...

xpress34
08-31-2010, 01:30 AM
5 games is nothing with a month and change left to play. They have 3 head to head games left. The Cards have much, much more experience and the better overall team and superior coaching. The Mets blew a 7.5 game lead with 17 games to play once so five with over a month is not a huge deal. The Reds will fold in September/October of that I am confidant.

I forgot to mention (using your argument as a spring board) that in 2007, the Rockies were 10 games out when September started and they won 21 of 22 to force a Tie Breaker on their way to sweeping through the PHILS and the D-Backs on their way to the WS. So a 3.5 game deficit isn't a huge deal.

xpress34
08-31-2010, 01:38 AM
They have won the NL two years in a row, have a loaded team of stars with pressure experience, so I just cannot see them coughing it up. Which is why I didn't mention the WC for the Reds or Cards earlier as well. The Rocks may very well get hot but it won't be enough.

I didn't know the Phils were the only team with stars who have pressure experience. Thanks for educating me... :rolleyes:

They can cough it up just like the Rox did last year. Colorado had Phillies number in the Division Series but Huston Street gave up the winning run in Game 3 and gave up 3 runs to lose Game 4.

I love reading revisionist history that makes it sound like the Phils rolled the Rockies last year (not saying that you said that).

Again, I guess we'll see how it plays out.

- Chris

legaleagle92481
08-31-2010, 11:58 AM
Check the remaining scheds. except for two series with Atlanta the Phils have more cupcakes then a bakery. The Rox except for two series vs. Arizona play the Reds, Pods, Cards, Dodgers and Giants, all over .500 and most in the playoff chase in some cases for multiple series. They have zero head to head games. By pressure experience I meant the Phils have played more postseason games over the last three years than ANY other team. Oswalt is new but he has been to the Series with Houston and the NLCS. Halladay is no experience but he is one of top three pitchers in the game. Rest of the team has pretty much been there each year.

BostonSportsFan
08-31-2010, 04:07 PM
While I am not going to say that the Cardinals cannot come back from what is now a 6 game defecit, they have hardly been playing inspired baseball. In fact since they swept the Reds what 3 weeks ago, they have absolutely played horrible baseball against many celler dwellers in the NL.

People have been saying all year that the Reds are going to falter, when is this going to happen. They have one month left and have given us 5 months worth of quality baseball. In fact, the Reds and Cards are going in opposite directions. While I would agree, on paper, the Cardinals have the better team, I am beginning to wonder if they are just going to completely underachieve this year and the Reds end up pulling it out.

LastingsMilledge85
08-31-2010, 05:21 PM
Wow, no one wants to give anyone or even the team (Padres) any credit?

xpress34
08-31-2010, 07:28 PM
Wow, no one wants to give anyone or even the team (Padres) any credit?

Milledge -

Since they play in the same division as my Rox, I wasn't going to mention them by name, but they are playing absolutely inspired baseball. with only one real 'star' name - AG.

My buddy and I were talking and at this point, if they stay playing the way they have all year, and the Rox won out the season, the Rox would still come up short on catching them for the NL West.

I'm not asking for the West title, just a serious knock down drag out fight for the Wild Card to finish the season.

cigarman44
08-31-2010, 07:39 PM
Milledge -

Since they play in the same division as my Rox, I wasn't going to mention them by name, but they are playing absolutely inspired baseball. with only one real 'star' name - AG.

My buddy and I were talking and at this point, if they stay playing the way they have all year, and the Rox won out the season, the Rox would still come up short on catching them for the NL West.

I'm not asking for the West title, just a serious knock down drag out fight for the Wild Card to finish the season.

They have actually lost 7 of their last 10. There is still hope my friend...

LastingsMilledge85
08-31-2010, 09:21 PM
Between Latos, Richard, Garland, and Gregerson among others having incredible seasons and pitching (as they say win postseason games)...but their problem will be the tiring of their tremendous youth pitching along with the lack of offense. But after all, the Padres are now predicted to take the series in seven over the Rays :confused:

AWA85
09-01-2010, 08:37 AM
Pujols will take it again. Gonzalez and Votto both will not be on playoff teams. Gonzalez is a great story , amazing year but he has no realistic shot at the tc because to make up six homers at this point is almost impossible unless Pujols gets hurt. Even if Pujols hits only 4 homers rest of the year, Gonzalez would have to hit 11 to top him and 11 for any player in a month is a steep task. I think Gonzalez will win the batting title and be the one person stopping Albert from a Triple Crown (I think he will win the other two categories). I can't see Votto pulling ahead of Pujols in either Hrs or RBIS as the pennant race heats up.


Votto is up in RBI's just to let you know.... and the Reds are now 7 games up.

skier14
09-01-2010, 10:50 AM
Votto is up in RBI's just to let you know.... and the Reds are now 7 games up.

That is true, but all three players are getting hot right now, and I know CarGo heating up has really put Colorado on a nice streak lately.

Colorado certainly isn't out of the playoff question, and all three players (Pujols, Votto, CarGo) aren't out of the MVP question either.

Should be interesting to see how this all plays out.

legaleagle92481
09-01-2010, 02:07 PM
Votto is up in RBI's just to let you know.... and the Reds are now 7 games up.

Man I hope Votto wins MVP and the Reds win out. It would be good to see some fresh blood in the playoffs and winning the biggest award. I would love to watch Chapman throwing 102 mph to Ryan Howard or Adrian Gonzalez in October. Votto is a great story hopefully he wins the triple crown. He is only 3 homers away from it and Albert's average is now 16 points off pace so hes probably the only one with a realistic chance. My point a few days ago was that the Cards are the deeper, more talented and experienced team on paper so theortically they should beat the Reds. Not to say it will happen in fact since then the way the standings have changed it probably won't.

skier14
09-01-2010, 04:56 PM
Man I hope Votto wins MVP and the Reds win out. It would be good to see some fresh blood in the playoffs and winning the biggest award. I would love to watch Chapman throwing 102 mph to Ryan Howard or Adrian Gonzalez in October. Votto is a great story hopefully he wins the triple crown. He is only 3 homers away from it and Albert's average is now 16 points off pace so hes probably the only one with a realistic chance. My point a few days ago was that the Cards are the deeper, more talented and experienced team on paper so theortically they should beat the Reds. Not to say it will happen in fact since then the way the standings have changed it probably won't.

I do agree that Votto has the best chance for a triple crown of the three. It is just too hard for Pujols to make up that deficit in the BA category.

It isn't out of the question for CarGo win either though. If he continues his hot streak, he may catch up in the other categories (and hopefully the rockies will keep winning).

If anyone were to win the Triple Crown, I'd guess it would be Votto.

legaleagle92481
09-01-2010, 09:17 PM
I do agree that Votto has the best chance for a triple crown of the three. It is just too hard for Pujols to make up that deficit in the BA category.

It isn't out of the question for CarGo win either though. If he continues his hot streak, he may catch up in the other categories (and hopefully the rockies will keep winning).

If anyone were to win the Triple Crown, I'd guess it would be Votto.

As I mentioned in an earlier post the homers kill CarGo he is five back but that is alot and very hard to make up. If Pujols hits only five homers the whole rest of the season CarGo would have to hit ten just to tie him. That is 1/3 of his current season total in a single month and very hard for any player to do. Plus its not just Albert ahead of him Votto, Dunn and Reynolds are also with Uggla and Prince right on his tail. The TC is so hard to win earlier in the season it looked like Cabera and Hamilton would make a run and now 1.5 months later neither will finish close to it. It would be great to see one though so I am hoping somebody pulls it off it has been 44 years since Yaz won the last one.

skier14
09-01-2010, 09:51 PM
As I mentioned in an earlier post the homers kill CarGo he is five back but that is alot and very hard to make up. If Pujols hits only five homers the whole rest of the season CarGo would have to hit ten just to tie him. That is 1/3 of his current season total in a single month and very hard for any player to do. Plus its not just Albert ahead of him Votto, Dunn and Reynolds are also with Uggla and Prince right on his tail. The TC is so hard to win earlier in the season it looked like Cabera and Hamilton would make a run and now 1.5 months later neither will finish close to it. It would be great to see one though so I am hoping somebody pulls it off it has been 44 years since Yaz won the last one.

Well I did not say it was likely Carlos could win, but it is still a possibility. (10 HR is not out of the question either, as he hit 8 in August and 9 in July).

That being said I would like to see a triple crown winner this year whether it be Votto or Gonzalez.

lakeerie92
09-01-2010, 10:26 PM
I can't say it enough, Omar Infante is going to win the batting title so there is not going to be a triple crown.

skier14
09-01-2010, 10:42 PM
I can't say it enough, Omar Infante is going to win the batting title so there is not going to be a triple crown.

I disagree. Atlanta has 29 games remaining. If, somehow, Infante were to keep up his pace he's at and play every game, his batting average would stay at .341 (because hes keeping same pace), and he would finish the season with 473 PA (leaving an 0-29 at the end of the season).

His true average would be: 151/443 --> .341
His batting title average would be: 151 / 472 --> .320

So, if CarGo or Votto were to keep up their averages (which is more likely than Infante keeping up his) they would both have higher averages than Infante....

In my opinion, Omar Infante wont win the Batting Title.

lakeerie92
09-02-2010, 09:54 AM
More likely than Infante keeping up his, his average is over .400 since becoming an everyday player a month ago. He is now at .346. He is on pace to get enough plate appearances to reach 502. Last night they moved him to shortstop to keep him in the game and getting at bats. With Chipper out he will play everyday until the end of the season. Last 10 games he is averaging 4.7 plate appearances per game. Leading off in the batting order he will continue to get that. He only needs 4.5 per game to reach 502. It is about time you guys wake up to the idea that this guy is the leading candidate for the batting title.

Manram
09-02-2010, 10:40 PM
Cargo hit home run number 31 and now has an average of.331 :)
I think it will come down simply to has the best end to the season

legaleagle92481
09-02-2010, 11:28 PM
More likely than Infante keeping up his, his average is over .400 since becoming an everyday player a month ago. He is now at .346. He is on pace to get enough plate appearances to reach 502. Last night they moved him to shortstop to keep him in the game and getting at bats. With Chipper out he will play everyday until the end of the season. Last 10 games he is averaging 4.7 plate appearances per game. Leading off in the batting order he will continue to get that. He only needs 4.5 per game to reach 502. It is about time you guys wake up to the idea that this guy is the leading candidate for the batting title.

i think everyone realizes it is a possibility but alot of people are rooting against it because they want to see a triple crown. most of us have never seen one or were too young in 67 to have appreciated it. for the first time in some many years there is genuine excitement about it and a realistic chance of it actually happening.this may be the only time many of us will see it in our lifetimes.

xpress34
09-04-2010, 06:31 PM
Cargo increased his BA to .335 (Votto .324, Pujols fading fast at .311)

Cargo gained 1 RBI on Votto (now 3 back with 95, Votto with 98, Pujols at 96)

No HRs for any of them so they stay Cargo 31, Votto 32, Pujols 35.

If they all stay on their current (past week pace) Cargo will walk away with the Triple Crown.

Cargo needs 3 RBI to catch up (1 to tie Albert) and 4 HR to catch up (1 to tie Votto).

Unless Infante by some miracle keeps it up and gets the requisite 502 PAs to steal the batting title, Cargo's .011 lead with less than a month to go will be tough to crack unless he hits a slump and Pujols or Votto go hot...

Just updating what I originally said - NL MVP race should go to the wire as well a possible Triple Crown title!!!

- Chris

rj_lucas
09-04-2010, 07:33 PM
Carlos Gonzalez will not win the Triple Crown, even with the altitude assist. He may win the batting title, but even that seems doubtful IMO. His current average will come under severe pressure given the pitching (Reds, Padres, Giants, Cardinals) he will face between now and the end of the season.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

legaleagle92481
09-05-2010, 04:50 PM
Way too early to even discuss this. Though I am guilty of chiming in I admit. There are so many players so close in these categories that if someone misses a few games due to a minor injury or gets cold for a week it could drastically alter the current stat leaders. Plus there are vultures all around. Prince Fielder or Adam Dunn could win the homer title. Infante could win the BA title.

xpress34
09-06-2010, 10:48 PM
As of close of business Sunday:

Gargo

BA - .340
HR - 31
RBI - 97

Votto

BA - .321
HR - 32
RBI - 98

Pujols

BA - .309
HR - 35
RBI - 97

Infante

BA - .339
HR - 7
RBI - 39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now Cargo is within 4 HRs of Pujols and 1 RBI of Votto AND, his Avg is now above Infante.

This justs gets more exciting by the day!!! Another 'race' to follow besides the pennant race!

All the best -

Chris

lakeerie92
09-06-2010, 10:59 PM
As of close of business Sunday:

Gargo

BA - .340
HR - 31
RBI - 97

Votto

BA - .321
HR - 32
RBI - 98

Pujols

BA - .309
HR - 35
RBI - 97

Infante

BA - .339
HR - 7
RBI - 39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now Cargo is within 4 HRs of Pujols and 1 RBI of Votto AND, his Avg is now above Infante.

This justs gets more exciting by the day!!! Another 'race' to follow besides the pennant race!

All the best -

Chris

Hey thanks for the inclusion. Cargo is definitely running away with it.

xpress34
09-06-2010, 11:12 PM
Hey thanks for the inclusion. Cargo is definitely running away with it.

Russell -

I think my original title to the thread still stands on it's own merits...

"NL MVP Race should go to the wire!!!!"

I guess a subtitle could have been:

"And possibly the 1st MLB Triple Crown since 1967 (1st NL Triple Crown since 1937)"

It's going to be a fun September!!!

- Chris

sox83cubs84
09-07-2010, 12:03 PM
Way too early to even discuss this. Though I am guilty of chiming in I admit. There are so many players so close in these categories that if someone misses a few games due to a minor injury or gets cold for a week it could drastically alter the current stat leaders. Plus there are vultures all around. Prince Fielder or Adam Dunn could win the homer title. Infante could win the BA title.

Don't forget Starlin Castro for the BA crown.:)

Dave Miedema

xpress34
09-07-2010, 07:02 PM
Don't forget Starlin Castro for the BA crown.:)

Dave Miedema

Dave -

Unless Starlin turns it on, he's got a LONG road to take the BA crown. He's at .317 right now - .023 behind Cargo and .002 behind Votto and still even behind Infante (.339).

He an Infante are both in the same boat - looking to be short on PAs unless they play every day for the rest of the season and they will take an 0 for XX for any PAs they are short of 502.

That said, I'm hoping you were being funny... ;)

All the best -

Chris

xpress34
09-07-2010, 07:20 PM
Dave -

Update to my last post (oh for an EDIT feature!)

Castro 'should' get there. He needs 70 more PAs (2.9 per game IF he plays every game).

Here are the current TPAs (Total Plate Appearances) per player in the running...

Pujols - 594

Votto - 558

Cargo - 542

Castro - 432 (70 shy of qualifying) - he should get there w/ 2.9 PAs per game

Infante - 398 (104 shy of qualifying) - losing ground on getting there. last week was avg 4.9 PAs a game. now 4.3. If he gets 4 PAs a game, he will take an 0 for 8... if he drops to just 3.5 PAs a game he takes an 0 for 20 and if he drops to Castro's needed avg of 3 PAs he takes an 0 for 32.

That said, Castro and Infante are both LONG shots at the Batting Title.

After seeing that Cargo has 52 less PAs than Pujols and 16 less than Votto, I am even more impressed that he is within 1 RBI and 4 HRs going into tonight.

Good luck to all of them!!!

- Chris

skier14
09-07-2010, 08:16 PM
Update:

Carlos Gonzalez: 32 HR (T3rd NL), .341 AVG (1st NL), 100 RBI (1st NL)

Joey Votto: 32 HR (T3rd NL), .321 AVG (2nd NL), 98 RBI (2nd NL)

Albert Pujols: 35 HR (1st NL), .310 AVG (5th NL), 97 RBI (3rd NL)

lakeerie92
09-07-2010, 08:53 PM
Infante - 398 (104 shy of qualifying) - losing ground on getting there. last week was avg 4.9 PAs a game. now 4.3. If he gets 4 PAs a game, he will take an 0 for 8... if he drops to just 3.5 PAs a game he takes an 0 for 20 and if he drops to Castro's needed avg of 3 PAs he takes an 0 for 32.


- Chris

Doesn't that mean he is gaining ground not losing ground? Last week he needed 4.9 plate appearances per game, now he only needs 4.3. He has been leading off every game and averaging nearly 5 a game. I no longer think his plate appearances are going to be the issue as much as Cargo's torrid pace.

Manram
09-07-2010, 10:20 PM
Update:

Carlos Gonzalez: 32 HR (T3rd NL), .341 AVG (1st NL), 100 RBI (1st NL)

Joey Votto: 32 HR (T3rd NL), .321 AVG (2nd NL), 98 RBI (2nd NL)

Albert Pujols: 35 HR (1st NL), .310 AVG (5th NL), 97 RBI (3rd NL)

Cargo will win mvp if he keeps tearing it up and possibly the triple crown??? This kid is a lot of fun to watch

xpress34
09-07-2010, 10:48 PM
Doesn't that mean he is gaining ground not losing ground? Last week he needed 4.9 plate appearances per game, now he only needs 4.3. He has been leading off every game and averaging nearly 5 a game. I no longer think his plate appearances are going to be the issue as much as Cargo's torrid pace.

Russell -

Maybe I should have worded that better. Last week, he was averaging 4.9 PAs a game. Now he is only averaging 4.3 PAs a game - meaning his number of PAs is going down.

I wasn't talking about what he needs to average - I was talking about how many PAs he was and is actually getting.

- Chris

lakeerie92
09-07-2010, 11:17 PM
That isn't the case though, he has 402 so he is 100 short with 23 games left. That is 4.3 needed per game. If he needed 4.9 per game last week that would mean he is exceeding the pace and should exceed 502 plate appearances. Now that the Braves are falling like a rock in the standings this is all I have to look forward to.

xpress34
09-08-2010, 12:07 AM
That isn't the case though, he has 402 so he is 100 short with 23 games left. That is 4.3 needed per game. If he needed 4.9 per game last week that would mean he is exceeding the pace and should exceed 502 plate appearances. Now that the Braves are falling like a rock in the standings this is all I have to look forward to.

Russell -

That IS (or was before tonight) the case. He had 398 PAs (per MLB's TPA number) before tonight and his PAs per game are 4.3 PAs per game. NOT what he needed, that is how many PAs he IS getting per game.

Last week he was averaging 4.9 PAs per game. Again, NOT what he needed, that is how many PAs he WAS getting per game.

That is a NET LOSS or .6 PAs per game. That means he is slowing down in how many PAs he is making.

If he continues to LOSE .6 PAs per game (x the 23 games that are NOW remaining - my earlier post was BEFORE tonights game was played), that means he will LOSE 13.8 Total Plate Appearances.

If he stays at 4.3 PAs a game, with 23 games remaining, he will gain 98.9 PA's + the 402 you say he has is 500.9. an 0 for 1 shouldn't hurt, but , as I said earlier he has LOST .6 PAs per game avg. If he loses .3 more and drops to 4 PAs he will be 8 PAs short of 502. If he drops .6 again to 3.7, he will be around 15 PAs short and an 0 for 15 tacked on would sink him.

Does that make sense now?

I am NOT talking about how many PAs he NEEDS to avg, I am talking about how many PAs he IS averaging.

All the best -

Chris

P.S. - If Cargo stays on the tear he is on, it will all be a moot point anyway. ;)

lakeerie92
09-08-2010, 01:30 AM
I understand what you are saying, but what I am trying to say is that over the last 10 games he has averaged 4.7 PA a game. over the last 7 games 4.71 PA. I don't know where your 4.3 average is coming into play. 4.7 is what he is averaging right now. 4.3 a game is all he needs to get to 502. Currently at 402 he needs 100 more 4.34 x 23= 99.82 so even if you say 4.4 he is still going to hit 502 with roughly 2 games to spare.

xpress34
09-08-2010, 09:11 AM
I understand what you are saying, but what I am trying to say is that over the last 10 games he has averaged 4.7 PA a game. over the last 7 games 4.71 PA. I don't know where your 4.3 average is coming into play. 4.7 is what he is averaging right now. 4.3 a game is all he needs to get to 502. Currently at 402 he needs 100 more 4.34 x 23= 99.82 so even if you say 4.4 he is still going to hit 502 with roughly 2 games to spare.

Each time I have figured his AVG # of PAs, I have used the same formula -

# Games / # TPA = #PA per game

That number overall is steadily DECREASING as the season goes on. You're using a short term - last 7 or last 10 games calculation. If I use that, Cargo smokes everyone with a .500+ BA, etc.

When I 1st discussed Infante with you, his SEASON avg was 4.9 PAs per game. The other day, his SEASON PA's per game had dropped to 4.3 PAs per game. As of this morning, he has played in 111 Games and has 402 PAs. That averages out to only 3.62 PAs per game.

His AVG # of PAs per game is FALLING as the season goes on. Just like his BA is a SEASON stat, I figure his AVG PAs for the SEASON, not the past 7 or 10 games.

All the best -

Chris

P.S. - As I said before, if Cargo stays on the pace he's on, it will all be a moot point as he has already passed Infante for BA anyway.

lakeerie92
09-08-2010, 09:23 AM
You can't just take plate appearances for an off the bench utility infielder that has become a full time starter and use that as a season calculation because it will always be inaccurate. Like discussed before games counted earlier in the season he might have only got one pinch hit at bat. Those games distort the information as to average number of plate appearances now that he is an everyday player. Calculating his numbers as an everyday player the only choice you have is to use a more recent sampling of his time as a starter. Besides with all of those appearances that were one or two at bats a game earlier in the season it is mathmatically impossible that his numbers went from 4.9 a game to 4.3 a game in when his plate appearances over that week were 4.7 a game.

xpress34
09-08-2010, 09:54 AM
Russ -

We'll just see how the season ends up. As I have said in my P.S. the past two posts, if Cargo doesn't let up, it won't matter anyway.

He already passed Infante for the BA lead. He passed Votto for the RBI lead. A few more bombs while Pujols is slumping and it could get VERY interesting...

- Chris

lakeerie92
09-08-2010, 10:18 AM
I agree, if he keeps up this pace he might hit .400 and get 200 RBIs

AWA85
09-08-2010, 12:19 PM
Not to take anything away from Cargo, but man those home splits are still there. The Coors effect lives on.

Consider: 25 of Gonzalez’s 32 home runs have come at Coors. His on-base plus slugging at Coors is 1.241. On the road, it’s .760.

Pujols and Votto have been much better away from home. Votto has hit 16 homers at home and 16 on the road. His OPS is .972 at home and 1.052 on the road.



Pujols has hit 17 homers at home and 18 on the road. His OPS is 1.058 at Busch and .914 on the road.



Should be an interesting MVP vote.

xpress34
09-08-2010, 03:47 PM
Not to take anything away from Cargo, but man those home splits are still there. The Coors effect lives on.

Consider: 25 of Gonzalez’s 32 home runs have come at Coors. His on-base plus slugging at Coors is 1.241. On the road, it’s .760.

Pujols and Votto have been much better away from home. Votto has hit 16 homers at home and 16 on the road. His OPS is .972 at home and 1.052 on the road.



Pujols has hit 17 homers at home and 18 on the road. His OPS is 1.058 at Busch and .914 on the road.



Should be an interesting MVP vote.

Not to sound nasty, but I am so tired of the 'Coors Field' effect, the 'Rarified Air', the 'Altitude Adjustment'... I know those are there for him this year... they were here for Holliday too who went on to prove he could do it elsewhere as well as Walker (who was the ONLY Cardinal who had a good 2004 WS).

It is a slam and a 'take away' on Cargo just like it has been on every player that has ever done anything noteworthy at Coors Field:

Bichette - THE Clutch Hitter of the 90's (the numbers don't lie) - should have been 1995 MVP

Walker was slammed for years until 1997 when he crushed everyone else

Holliday - should have been 2007 MVP for carrying the Rockies that last month - instead it went East Coast to J-Roll and the writer's reasoning? J-Rolls defense. But then those hypocrites turned around and gave him the Gold Glove over Tulo because of J-Rolls OFFENSE??? Really a Defensive Award for your offense? Tulo SMOKED Rollins defensively in 2007... the writers also added in that they had never and would never give the Gold Glove to a Rookie no matter how good a season he had.

And Tulo also got screwed on ROY that year because the writer's were enamored with Braun's HRs - never mind he made over 3x as many errors as Tulo playing a 1/3 to half as many games.

Helton - screwed on ROY because a guy named Kerry Wood had one good game his Rookie Year and struck out 20. What has Woods done since? Ride the pine alot on the DL.

And I'm sure even if he has the most wins and good era and all, the writers will find a way to screw Ubaldo as well and claim that the 'humidor' helped his numbers so those hypocrites can have it both ways again - Coors Field helped Cargo offensively and helped Baldo defensively.

If anyone thinks I'm a bit peeved over the Coors Field comments, you'd be right.

How about slamming Bonds for the Giants building a stadium that played to his power stroke with McCovey Cove so he could hit more HRs as he got older or the 'band box' the Phillies play in.

When the Coors Field comments come up, it's always negative and I guess no good players should ever come here because theri numbers will always be questioned.

In closing, I know Cargo's numbers are skewed, but in fairness to him and any player - I've siad it before and I'll say it again - your numbers SHOULD be skewed to your HOME PARK. You play HALF your season in it and you should know the power alleys and hot spots. Maybe not to the extreme Cargo's numbers show this year, but they should be skewed.

The comments about the Coors Field effect just sound like we should just quit talking about Cargo because what he is doing isn't real since he plays at Coors Field.

What a crock...

So, come on - let's here all the BS I'm sure will come raining down from my diatribe...

Instanton
09-08-2010, 04:43 PM
Could not have said it better, Chris. Fantastic post on denouncing the now-fallacious "Coors effect".


You might enjoy this, Chris: http://cardcop.org/sean_collection/Carlos_Gonzalez_Collection/



Not mine, but a sick collection of CarGo.

lakeerie92
09-08-2010, 04:56 PM
The Gold Glove thing with Tulo is a voters thing, not really a Coors Field thing. The same thing happened to Chipper in 2007 he had 9 errors and Wright won the Gold Glove with 21 partially because he hit 30 HRs and 100+ RBIs. Granted he played about 25 more game than Chipper, but 25 in the scheme of 162 isn't a big enough difference to warrant giving it to someone with over double the amount of errors. The humidor improved things, but it wasn't a fix. Cargo's splits are pretty big, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he still hit the homers and drove in the runs. If he keeps it up he should be MVP. As for Ubaldo, he was hot in the beginning and fizzled out He had 16 wins at the All Star break and just got 18. If he doesn't reach 20 he has not shot.

lakeerie92
09-08-2010, 04:57 PM
excuse me, 15 wins for Ubaldo at the break

legaleagle92481
09-08-2010, 06:02 PM
The Coors Field effect is BS. If it helps so much how come Cargo is the ONLY Rockie have an offensive season where he will ecilpse 30/100 with a .300 BA? If you want to talk parks how about the Rangers park. Last year Guerrero looked done this year he is at close to .300 30/100. And Hamilton the guy got to Texas and lit it up after the Rays and Reds both gave up on him. Or Philly J Weryth went from a JAG to an all star. Or Ibanez's first half last year. Or the left field porch at the New Yankee Stadium 25 hrs for Damon last year! Cargo is a young player the split is probably better explained by him being more comfortable playing in friendly, familar terroitory. As far as MVP if he gets close to the TC it is robbery if he does not win it. His team will finish no worse then second with the Pads implosion not looking like it will let up and without him they would finish last. And I agree Holliday was screwed royally in 2007. Though I think Hallday not Jimenez has earned NL Cy Young.

xpress34
09-08-2010, 10:51 PM
The Coors Field effect is BS. If it helps so much how come Cargo is the ONLY Rockie have an offensive season where he will ecilpse 30/100 with a .300 BA? If you want to talk parks how about the Rangers park. Last year Guerrero looked done this year he is at close to .300 30/100. And Hamilton the guy got to Texas and lit it up after the Rays and Reds both gave up on him. Or Philly J Weryth went from a JAG to an all star. Or Ibanez's first half last year. Or the left field porch at the New Yankee Stadium 25 hrs for Damon last year! Cargo is a young player the split is probably better explained by him being more comfortable playing in friendly, familar terroitory. As far as MVP if he gets close to the TC it is robbery if he does not win it. His team will finish no worse then second with the Pads implosion not looking like it will let up and without him they would finish last. And I agree Holliday was screwed royally in 2007. Though I think Hallday not Jimenez has earned NL Cy Young.

I was just going to bring up Hamilton's splits (and I like Josh!)

Home - 21 HR, 54 RBI, .395 BA, XBH 48, OPS 1.205
Road - 10 HR, 43 RBI, .327 BA, XBH 26, OPS .894

I don't hear squat about his splits being so skewed...

As far as The CY...

Ubaldo 18 W - 6 L, 2.79 ERA, 178 K, .750 WP

Halladay 17 W - 10 L, 2.36 ERA, 196 K, .630 WP

Wainwright 17 W - 10 L, 2.34 ERA, 184 K, .630 WP

Before the AS break, all I heard about was ERA being most important. If that is true, then Wainwright takes the CY at this point.

But if you look at all the stats, Ubaldo has given up the least Hits and the least HRs and has the lowest BA against.

Like the MVP, it will depend on how all three finish out their last 3 starts.

At this point with one owning the lead in each of the pitching Triple Crown categories, it is too close to call.

xpress34
09-08-2010, 11:00 PM
As of close of business Wednesday:

Gargo

BA - .340
HR - 32
RBI - 100

Votto

BA - .326
HR - 32
RBI - 99

Pujols

BA - .311
HR - 36
RBI - 98

Infante

BA - .342
HR - 7
RBI - 40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

So now Cargo is within 4 HRs of Pujols and 1 RBI ahead of Votto AND, his Avg is now .002 below Infante. (I will HIGHLIGHT Infante's number when he hits the PAs)

This justs gets more exciting by the day!!! Another 'race' to follow besides the pennant race!

All the best -

Chris

AWA85
09-09-2010, 12:02 AM
Wasn't trying to offend you or bring down anything on Cargo, matter of fact it was actually copy and pasted from another site.

As the triple crown slips away, think I am just trying to find more ways for Votto to reach the MVP award ;). Not trying to stir anything up, sorry about that!


By the way you are getting the last laugh with how the Rockies are pounding the Reds right now.

skier14
09-09-2010, 04:11 PM
As the Triple Crown slips away from whom?

I am not saying tat I think anybody will win it, because I don't. However I don't think the Triple Crown is slipping away from Carlos or Votto (Votto maybe because of average).

Just my opinion.

jbsportstuff
09-09-2010, 04:34 PM
Wasn't trying to offend you or bring down anything on Cargo, matter of fact it was actually copy and pasted from another site.

As the triple crown slips away, think I am just trying to find more ways for Votto to reach the MVP award ;). Not trying to stir anything up, sorry about that!


By the way you are getting the last laugh with how the Rockies are pounding the Reds right now.
Adam - You sure got blasted after bringing up a valid point. You've taken the high road on a couple of posts. Cudos to you.

Beardownaz30
09-09-2010, 06:25 PM
If Gonzalez can get the Rockies into the playoffs that would be quite an accomplishment. If they make it I think he wins the MVP easy. He has been on a tear last couple weeks. If they don't make it I think award is clearly Votto's.

AndersonAuthentics
09-09-2010, 06:39 PM
Has to be Carlos Gonzalez. I was high on Votto for the majority of the year, but Gonzalez has stepped it up recently.

rj_lucas
09-09-2010, 06:43 PM
The Coors Field effect is BS. If it helps so much how come Cargo is the ONLY Rockie have an offensive season where he will ecilpse 30/100 with a .300 BA?

Deny the altitude effect if you wish, it doesn't change the physics:

http://www.pdas.com/bb1.htm

The answer to your question is contained in the article. Not every batter will benefit from lower resistance, and some will benefit more than others. It's a function of the ball's initial velocity i.e. the speed at which it comes off the bat. The faster it travels when hit, the greater the benefit gained from lower resistence. In fact, the author quantifies the benefit as 9% greater distance for an average hitter. A stronger hitter with an inside-out stroke (think Carlos Gonzalez) will reap a bigger benefit.

None of this suggests that Carlos Gonzalez (for example) is not a skilled player. Quite the opposite, since the 'better' the hitter, the greater the benefit from playing at high altitude. But the effect is real.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

skier14
09-09-2010, 08:07 PM
Deny the altitude effect if you wish, it doesn't change the physics:

http://www.pdas.com/bb1.htm

The answer to your question is contained in the article. Not every batter will benefit from lower resistance, and some will benefit more than others. It's a function of the ball's initial velocity i.e. the speed at which it comes off the bat. The faster it travels when hit, the greater the benefit gained from lower resistence. In fact, the author quantifies the benefit as 9% greater distance for an average hitter. A stronger hitter with an inside-out stroke (think Carlos Gonzalez) will reap a bigger benefit.

None of this suggests that Carlos Gonzalez (for example) is not a skilled player. Quite the opposite, since the 'better' the hitter, the greater the benefit from playing at high altitude. But the effect is real.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

I do not at all deny that the altitude has an effect on the ball's distance traveled (believe me, I cannot drive a golfball 300 yards several times per round at sea level).

I think Carlos Gonzalez is almost the perfect ballplayer for Colorado and Coors Field. The Rockies have used both the strategy of power hitters (Blake Street Bombers) and fast outfielders to cover the ground of the large outfield; Carlos Gonzalez has both power and speed which is ideal for a Rockies outfielder.

About the MVP I agree that it could go either way between Votto and Gonzalez, but if CarGo plays nearly as well as he has last couple weeks I think he will win it.

Instanton
09-10-2010, 03:44 AM
Deny the altitude effect if you wish, it doesn't change the physics:

http://www.pdas.com/bb1.htm

The answer to your question is contained in the article. Not every batter will benefit from lower resistance, and some will benefit more than others. It's a function of the ball's initial velocity i.e. the speed at which it comes off the bat. The faster it travels when hit, the greater the benefit gained from lower resistence. In fact, the author quantifies the benefit as 9% greater distance for an average hitter. A stronger hitter with an inside-out stroke (think Carlos Gonzalez) will reap a bigger benefit.

None of this suggests that Carlos Gonzalez (for example) is not a skilled player. Quite the opposite, since the 'better' the hitter, the greater the benefit from playing at high altitude. But the effect is real.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com


Rick,
Do you attest that a 6-9 percent increase is a significant factor, in associating it with CarGo's success? I.e, to include it with major factors, such as his talent, etc...?
The Coors Field effect is BS, simply because it is composed of two main attributes: dry air - employing greater elasticity to the ball, and the thin air - allowing the ball to travel further, relative to initial velocity.
The humidor was set in place to negate the main-tier effect - the dry air effect. It was concluded that this was the main reason Coors launched so many bombs; where the thin air was second to this dilemma. Because only one variable out of the "Coors Field effect" has been constant (thin air) - on par with the decline in HRs since the introduction of the humidor - it's fair to deduce that the post-humidor air is not as significant as made out to be. Though, it will always be a hitters' park - this in combination with its spacious outfield.
Again, the Coors Field effect is fallacious because both variables are currently not employed. The term "A Coors Field product" implies the Coors Field effect, because of the stadium's past. This confusion is what gets Rox fans riled.
Logically speaking, I will not label Carlos Gonzalez as a product of Coors Field, after only one year. Let him falter on the road for two or so more years, then we will talk. While you did not say this: labeling CarGo as a product of Coors devalues his talent, as it gives him intrinsic mediocrity. I'm afraid I can not even label him as such, for just this year - see the Rockies team splits for '10.


Cheers,
Joe

legaleagle92481
09-10-2010, 08:36 AM
Deny the altitude effect if you wish, it doesn't change the physics:

http://www.pdas.com/bb1.htm

The answer to your question is contained in the article. Not every batter will benefit from lower resistance, and some will benefit more than others. It's a function of the ball's initial velocity i.e. the speed at which it comes off the bat. The faster it travels when hit, the greater the benefit gained from lower resistence. In fact, the author quantifies the benefit as 9% greater distance for an average hitter. A stronger hitter with an inside-out stroke (think Carlos Gonzalez) will reap a bigger benefit.

None of this suggests that Carlos Gonzalez (for example) is not a skilled player. Quite the opposite, since the 'better' the hitter, the greater the benefit from playing at high altitude. But the effect is real.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

As fascinating as that is, the rest of the team seems to have reaped no benefit at all. Check the stats. Only two guys, including Cargo are hitting over .300. The next highest homer total after Cargo is 18! And the next highest RBI total is 69! In fact its September and only two guys have over 100 hits including Cargo.

xpress34
09-10-2010, 02:05 PM
The Coors Field effect is BS, simply because it is composed of two main attributes: dry air - employing greater elasticity to the ball, and the thin air - allowing the ball to travel further, relative to initial velocity.

Joe -

I just wanted to correct one thing here - the BOLDED statement above.

The dry air actually REMOVES the elasticity of the ball (i.e. it dries out) making it like hitting a golfball so it increases the distance.

The humidor is exactly what it implies - it adds humidity to the air to keep the 'water weight' of the baseballs consistent to what they are out of the factory and how they are at game time at other parks. Just like a regular humidor keeps cigars from drying out, it keeps the leather from drying and tightening on the ball.

While I was working for Rawlings we got asked a lot about the humidor and if parks in humid areas needed a drier to help the balls go further.

The answer is NO. It is much easier for a dry arid desert climate to dry a ball out than it is for a damp humid climate to 'soak' the ball. It has to do with the permeability of leather just like your skin.

Your skin sweats out water with no problem, but when you go swimming or take a shower, the water runs off of you - your skin doesn't absorb it.

Just wanted to clear up that point.

- Chris

Instanton
09-10-2010, 03:37 PM
Joe -

I just wanted to correct one thing here - the BOLDED statement above.

The dry air actually REMOVES the elasticity of the ball (i.e. it dries out) making it like hitting a golfball so it increases the distance.

The humidor is exactly what it implies - it adds humidity to the air to keep the 'water weight' of the baseballs consistent to what they are out of the factory and how they are at game time at other parks. Just like a regular humidor keeps cigars from drying out, it keeps the leather from drying and tightening on the ball.

While I was working for Rawlings we got asked a lot about the humidor and if parks in humid areas needed a drier to help the balls go further.

The answer is NO. It is much easier for a dry arid desert climate to dry a ball out than it is for a damp humid climate to 'soak' the ball. It has to do with the permeability of leather just like your skin.

Your skin sweats out water with no problem, but when you go swimming or take a shower, the water runs off of you - your skin doesn't absorb it.

Just wanted to clear up that point.

- Chris

Chris,

I see - I read that tidbit on an old '07 article. It was a bit general, but here it is:

'That effect, however, is offset by the humidified ball being "less bouncy and probably for the same swing comes off the bat with a little less speed," he said.'


I took "less bouncy" as having lesser elasticity, therefore greater firmness than a dry ball; where the elasticity of a dry ball assisted in more transfer in energy, for a great initial velocity?


Joe

jbsportstuff
09-10-2010, 03:59 PM
As fascinating as that is, the rest of the team seems to have reaped no benefit at all. Check the stats. Only two guys, including Cargo are hitting over .300. The next highest homer total after Cargo is 18! And the next highest RBI total is 69! In fact its September and only two guys have over 100 hits including Cargo.
You can do no doubt argue the the BA...but if you look at the amount of At bats that the other players have compared to Cargo, that is a big reason why there aren't more homers or RBI's.

RkPosAgeGPAABRH2B3BHRRBISBCSBBSOBAOBPSLGOPSOPS+TBG DPHBPSHSFIBB1CMiguel Olivo (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/olivomi01.shtml)3196380350509815513527424102.280.3 25.463.7881011624123321BTodd Helton (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/heltoto01.shtml)*36994033454085151628005377.246.34 5.348.693801209104232BClint Barmes (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/barmecl01.shtml)311224203754188200850323564.235.30 6.352.658701325523104SSTroy Tulowitzki (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/tulowtr01.shtml)251014363857012428218691024165.322 .389.545.93413921014415253BIan Stewart (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/stewaia01.shtml)*25115423371539814218605242104.264 .343.458.801105170750586LFSeth Smith (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/smithse01.shtml)*2711735532253831741750212860.258. 318.494.812106159520307CFDexter Fowler (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/fowlede01.shtml)#24110422361629119124331275386.252 .351.404.75595146426008RFBrad Hawpe (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/hawpebr01.shtml)*31883002592466212737213668.255.34 3.432.77610011241044RkPosAgeGPAABRH2B3BHRRBISBCSBB SOBAOBPSLGOPSOPS+TBGDPHBPSHSFIBB9OFCarlos Gonzalez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gonzaca01.shtml)*24126554513951733083210023832118. 337.374.614.9881503157207610OFRyan Spilborghs (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/spilbry01.shtml)3011332528735791821029353172.275.3 56.456.81210913165200113BMelvin Mora (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/morame01.shtml)38952892552869104430212836.271.354. 388.742929975102122BJonathan Herrera (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/h/herrejo03.shtml)#2560203177255032119121929.282.348 .339.68779602052

jbsportstuff
09-10-2010, 04:02 PM
Ok...that did NOT paste like I wanted it to. :) Here is a link to check out what I was talking about. Cargo is having an awesome year...but he has well over 100+ plus more plate appearences and AB's compared to the next Co Ro. :)

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/COL/2010.shtml

skier14
09-10-2010, 10:20 PM
As fascinating as that is, the rest of the team seems to have reaped no benefit at all. Check the stats. Only two guys, including Cargo are hitting over .300. The next highest homer total after Cargo is 18! And the next highest RBI total is 69! In fact its September and only two guys have over 100 hits including Cargo.

That is true, however the other guy hitting over .300 is second in the batting race (Tulowitzki hitting .327)

xpress34
09-11-2010, 11:41 AM
As we head into the weekend, Gargo is losing his grip on a potential Triple Crown. He need sto get HOT and quick if he wanst to keep the hope alive for the TC...

MVP on the other hand is still an open race as the Rox heat up in September - adding a NEW player into the Batting Title Race:

Cargo

BA - .335
HR - 32
RBI - 100

Votto

BA - .320
HR - 32
RBI - 100

Pujols

BA - .311
HR - 37
RBI - 99

Infante

BA - .340 (Not yet qualified for Batting Title - 415 PAs)
HR - 7
RBI - 40

Tulowitzki

BA - .327 (2nd - 440 PAs meets the 3.1 PAs per game avg)
HR - 20
RBI - 72

Will update again on Monday

rj_lucas
09-11-2010, 02:01 PM
Thanks for staying on top of these numbers Christopher -- we're getting spoiled with our own personal stats tracker :)

To me, the most interesting 'what if' questions are with Votto. If he were to finish, say, third in each of the TC categories, and the Rockies make the playoffs, does Votto win the MVP?

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

Neal
09-11-2010, 06:35 PM
Will Pujols whine again if he doesn't win it?

legaleagle92481
09-12-2010, 09:39 AM
That is true, however the other guy hitting over .300 is second in the batting race (Tulowitzki hitting .327)

Well Prado and Infante are teammates and both up there as well (though as we all know Omar does not have the PAs yet) so is there a Turner Field effect also? And Prado and Infante are to phrase this lightly on the less talented side when compared to Tulo and Cargo.

legaleagle92481
09-12-2010, 09:42 AM
Will Pujols whine again if he doesn't win it?

If Pujols wins it will be the biggest joke ever. His slump and the team's collapse went hand in hand. They are behind a team that has half the talent and experience they do. They have Holliday, Pujols, Carpenter, Garcia and Wainwright few teams in baseball have a core that good. The Reds have Votto but beyond him who is really on the star level?

lakeerie92
09-12-2010, 05:06 PM
Well Prado and Infante are teammates and both up there as well (though as we all know Omar does not have the PAs yet) so is there a Turner Field effect also? And Prado and Infante are to phrase this lightly on the less talented side when compared to Tulo and Cargo.

That is a good point when you pull up the splits between Prado and Infante they are much more favorable at home in terms of BA. Turner field is more of a pitchers park due to humidity keeping the ball down. Prado although only became an everyday player late last year and hit over .300 then so I don't think you can rule out the fact that he has as much talent as a Tulo or Cargo yet.

legaleagle92481
09-12-2010, 11:34 PM
After today it is safe to say another year will pass without a TC. Seems impossible for Cargo to make up seven homers in three weeks.

joelsabi
09-13-2010, 02:49 AM
After today it is safe to say another year will pass without a TC. Seems impossible for Cargo to make up seven homers in three weeks.

At least before Sunday's game he was 10 points above everyone in the batting title. I estimated that you can penalize Infante 17 at bats at the end of the season for not reaching the 502 plate appearance mark. So that 0 fer 17 "streak" really put a dent in Infante's chances.

My calculations:

joelsabi
09-13-2010, 03:20 AM
I added incorrectly the number of games played. Should be 144 not 148 so the extra 4 games I missed at the 4.6 PA per game average the past 30 games should make him eligible without penalty. So its should be a tight race with Infante currently ahead.

lakeerie92
09-13-2010, 10:03 AM
I added incorrectly the number of games played. Should be 144 not 148 so the extra 4 games I missed at the 4.6 PA per game average the past 30 games should make him eligible without penalty. So its should be a tight race with Infante currently ahead.

He actually is currently at 426 PA and 398 AB. You have him at 421 and 393 through yesterday.

joelsabi
09-13-2010, 12:19 PM
He actually is currently at 426 PA and 398 AB. You have him at 421 and 393 through yesterday.

Thanks Russell.

I was working off Yahoo to figure out the PA rate for the past 30 days and using ESPN for the actual PA since it had stats for SF and SH which is part of PA. So the 5 extra PA is from Sundays game. So Infante has some leeway to quality and not be penalized. Over the past 30 days, he is hitting leadoff and does not seem to take a rest day.

Correction added.

legaleagle92481
09-13-2010, 03:22 PM
Thanks Russell.

I was working off Yahoo to figure out the PA rate for the past 30 days and using ESPN for the actual PA since it had stats for SF and SH which is part of PA. So the 5 extra PA is from Sundays game. So Infante has some leeway to quality and not be penalized. Over the past 30 days, he is hitting leadoff and does not seem to take a rest day.

Correction added.

This is all fascinating but whether or not Infante wins BA title has no bearing on the TC. Pujols' average is too low. Cargo and Votto don't have enough homers and there are a slew of players besides those three with similar homer or RBI totals. If he wins he goes down as worst player to ever win a ba title which right now is probably Bill Mueller.

lakeerie92
09-13-2010, 05:31 PM
This is all fascinating but whether or not Infante wins BA title has no bearing on the TC. Pujols' average is too low. Cargo and Votto don't have enough homers and there are a slew of players besides those three with similar homer or RBI totals. If he wins he goes down as worst player to ever win a ba title which right now is probably Bill Mueller.

I will take the worst guy ever to win a BA title on my team anyday. I mean it isn't exactly an insult to say you are the worst player ever to win a batting title. Sammy Sosa is the worst player to ever hit 600 home runs, but guess what? He has 600 HOME RUNS!!!

joelsabi
09-13-2010, 08:45 PM
This is all fascinating but whether or not Infante wins BA title has no bearing on the TC. Pujols' average is too low. Cargo and Votto don't have enough homers and there are a slew of players besides those three with similar homer or RBI totals. If he wins he goes down as worst player to ever win a ba title which right now is probably Bill Mueller.

I never said it had any bearing on the Triple Crown. I was saying that there is consolation if Cargo get the batting crown. I actually did the calculation because I know Chris is really interested in Carlos Gonzalez chances of winning a batting title and knowing the estimated penalty would make it easier to keep track of Infante realized batting average. I intially thought Infante would not meet the threshold for qualifying and that the penalty for not meeting the 502 PA plateau would help Cargo's cause but that is not the case.

Anyways every batting title is treasured. Not many MLB players can say they have a batting title so if Infante get one that an accomplishment that he can be very proud of.

xpress34
09-13-2010, 08:52 PM
If you go to MLB.com and click the STATS key in the toolbar or search the player by name, you can click on this season and if you go to more stats, the TPA is listed there and it is the OFFICIAL Total Plate Appearances per MLB.

Just an FYI!

- Chris

joelsabi
09-14-2010, 07:48 AM
You can't just take plate appearances for an off the bench utility infielder that has become a full time starter and use that as a season calculation because it will always be inaccurate. Like discussed before games counted earlier in the season he might have only got one pinch hit at bat. Those games distort the information as to average number of plate appearances now that he is an everyday player. Calculating his numbers as an everyday player the only choice you have is to use a more recent sampling of his time as a starter. Besides with all of those appearances that were one or two at bats a game earlier in the season it is mathmatically impossible that his numbers went from 4.9 a game to 4.3 a game in when his plate appearances over that week were 4.7 a game.

exactly. i used a 30 game period to figure infante rate. of course his 30 day rate is higher than his season rate as he now plays daily and hits leadoff. Leadoff hitter should get 4-5 plate appearance per game.

Neal
09-14-2010, 09:45 AM
Not that he is a candidate, but Ryan Howard will win the RBI crown.

Votto is having a better year than Pujols.

skier14
09-14-2010, 04:40 PM
Not that he is a candidate, but Ryan Howard will win the RBI crown.

Votto is having a better year than Pujols.

Why do you think Howard over the three players in front of him?

xpress34
09-15-2010, 11:58 PM
Cargo

BA - .341
HR - 32
RBI - 106

Votto

BA - .320
HR - 34
RBI - 104

Pujols

BA - .308
HR - 39
RBI - 104

Infante

BA - .340 (Not yet qualified for Batting Title - 438 PAs)
HR - 7
RBI - 41

Tulowitzki

BA - .325 (2nd - 461 PAs)
HR - 23
RBI - 82
**(Tulo has added 3 HRs and 10 RBI since my last update!)***

lakeerie92
09-16-2010, 07:13 PM
Cargo

BA - .341
HR - 32
RBI - 106

Votto

BA - .320
HR - 34
RBI - 104

Pujols

BA - .308
HR - 39
RBI - 104

Infante

BA - .340 (Not yet qualified for Batting Title - 438 PAs)
HR - 7
RBI - 41

Tulowitzki

BA - .325 (2nd - 461 PAs)
HR - 23
RBI - 82
**(Tulo has added 3 HRs and 10 RBI since my last update!)***

At that rate Tulo might be a Triple Crown contender

xpress34
09-18-2010, 09:43 AM
Weekend Update (a nod to Chevy Chase, Jane Curtain and the REAL SNL Cast):

Cargo

BA - .341
HR - 32
RBI - 106

Votto

BA - .321
HR - 34
RBI - 104

Pujols

BA - .309
HR - 39
RBI - 107

Infante

BA - .339 (Not yet qualified for Batting Title - 443 PAs)
HR - 7
RBI - 43

Tulowitzki

BA - .324
HR - 24
RBI - 84
*** (Tulo has 12 HRs and 29 RBI in the month of September so far!!!) ***
*** (Stat from last night's game - Tulo has more HRs, RBIs and Higher BA than the ENTIRE Dodgers line-up combined for the month of September!) ***

joelsabi
09-18-2010, 09:46 AM
Weekend Update (a nod to Chevy Chase, Jane Curtain and the REAL SNL Cast):

Cargo

BA - .341
HR - 32
RBI - 106

Votto

BA - .321
HR - 34
RBI - 104

Pujols

BA - .309
HR - 39
RBI - 107

Infante

BA - .339 (Not yet qualified for Batting Title - 443 PAs)
HR - 7
RBI - 43

Tulowitzki

BA - .324
HR - 24
RBI - 84
*** (Tulo has 12 HRs and 29 RBI in the month of September so far!!!) ***
*** (Stat from last night's game - Tulo has more HRs, RBIs and Higher BA than the ENTIRE Dodgers line-up combined for the month of September!) ***

Thanks Chris. Hopefully I can quote Meatloaf when this is over.

sox83cubs84
09-18-2010, 07:47 PM
On tonight's Cubs game telecast, announcer Len Kasper made a statement that Troy Tulowitzki is now a full-fledged NL MVP candidate. Anyone's thoughts on that?

Dave Miedema

skier14
09-19-2010, 03:02 AM
I think that may be the case. As he has hit 26 HRs and has 92 RBI and is in second in the NL Batting Race, and hes only played 110 games.

Thats just my opinion, especially if the Rockies make the playoffs.

legaleagle92481
09-19-2010, 11:21 AM
On tonight's Cubs game telecast, announcer Len Kasper made a statement that Troy Tulowitzki is now a full-fledged NL MVP candidate. Anyone's thoughts on that?

Dave Miedema

Its a good question but how can a guy who is not having the best year on his own team be MVP. IMO it will be 1. Votto, 2. CarGo 3. Pujols 4. Tulo 5. Adrian Gonzalez

xpress34
09-19-2010, 03:10 PM
Tulo has 14 HRs and 33 RBI in the month of September so far!!!

That ties for the most HRs in a 15 game span since 1900!!!

Tulowitzki joined Albert Belle (1995) and Barry Bonds (2001) as the only players since 1900 to homer 14 times in a span of 15 games.

Although unlikely, if he continues his torrid pace through Sept and for the games in Oct, he will pass Cargo for BA and end up with almost 120 RBI and over 40 HRs...

Being a Rockies fan, I would love to see him win the MVP, but don't see it playing out that way either.

What an amazing month no matter what... another Rockies story 'for the ages' as they say...

4 more and he breaks the MLB Record for September held by Babe Ruth and Albert Belle (17)

3 more and he ties Ruth and Belle but surpasses Ralph Kiner for NL Record for September

7 more (1/2 his current pace) and he paces Sammy Sosa for the LB Record for most in any month

Go TULO!!!

skier14
09-19-2010, 05:11 PM
Tulo has 14 HRs and 33 RBI in the month of September so far!!!

That ties for the most HRs in a 15 game span since 1900!!!

Tulowitzki joined Albert Belle (1995) and Barry Bonds (2001) as the only players since 1900 to homer 14 times in a span of 15 games.

Although unlikely, if he continues his torrid pace through Sept and for the games in Oct, he will pass Cargo for BA and end up with almost 120 RBI and over 40 HRs...

Being a Rockies fan, I would love to see him win the MVP, but don't see it playing out that way either.

What an amazing month no matter what... another Rockies story 'for the ages' as they say...

4 more and he breaks the MLB Record for September held by Babe Ruth and Albert Belle (17)

3 more and he ties Ruth and Belle but surpasses Ralph Kiner for NL Record for September

7 more (1/2 his current pace) and he paces Sammy Sosa for the LB Record for most in any month

Go TULO!!!

As a Rockies fan I would love to see that too, and as a Tulowitzki Collector, my collection would become much more valuable (but adding would be much more costly).

That being said, I would love Tulo to win MVP, also you have to remember he was injured for many games, which is why his numbers aren't the same as Gonzalez's

xpress34
09-20-2010, 03:48 PM
Monday Morning Numbers - 2 Weeks left in the MLB Regular Season:

Cargo

BA - .340
HR - 32
RBI - 107

Votto

BA - .324
HR - 34
RBI - 104

Pujols

BA - .307
HR - 39
RBI - 107

Infante

BA - .337 (Not yet qualified for Batting Title - 452 PAs)
HR - 7
RBI - 43

Tulowitzki

BA - .325
HR - 26
RBI - 89

xpress34
09-20-2010, 03:56 PM
FYI -

Infante needs 4.1 PAs per game for the next 12 games to hit 502.

His current average (and YES, I know about the Pinch Hitting, etc) is 3.7 PAs a game.

That works out to 44 PAs. Depending on how the Braves play him these last 12, he is looking at taking an 0 for 8 to round him to 502.

I will update these numbers next week and see where he is sitting.

- Chris

xpress34
09-20-2010, 03:57 PM
- TYPO -

That should say 0 for 6 as he is at 452 PAs...

legaleagle92481
09-20-2010, 03:58 PM
Monday Morning Numbers - 2 Weeks left in the
Maybe Tulo could lend CarGo one of his bats so his recent homer binge could rub off on him. If it were not for those dang seven homers we would be witnessing the possible first NL Triple Crown since the 1930s. A fact about TCs that I read the other day is Frank Robinson considers himself to have hit the last true TC since Yaz tied another player in one of the categories in 67. If there is a tie in a category should it count?

xpress34
09-20-2010, 04:01 PM
Monday Morning Numbers - 2 Weeks left in the
Maybe Tulo could lend CarGo one of his bats so his recent homer binge could rub off on him. If it were not for those dang seven homers we would be witnessing the possible first NL Triple Crown since the 1930s. A fact about TCs that I read the other day is Frank Robinson considers himself to have hit the last true TC since Yaz tied another player in one of the categories in 67. If there is a tie in a category should it count?

The keepers of the MLB records apparently think so! If two teams tie (i.e. Padres and Rockies in 2007) they have a Tie-Breaker or 'Play-In' game... maybe the two 'tied' players should have a HR Derby or something to break the tie... :rolleyes:

And to be more precise on your NL TC figure - it was 1937 when Joe 'Ducky' Medwick won the last NL TC.

xpress34
09-20-2010, 10:45 PM
Monday Evening Numbers - 2 Weeks left in the MLB Regular Season:

Cargo

BA - .340
HR - 32
RBI - 107

Votto

BA - .324
HR - 34
RBI - 104

Pujols

BA - .306
HR - 39
RBI - 107

Infante

BA - .334 (Not yet qualified for Batting Title - 456 PAs)
HR - 7
RBI - 43

Tulowitzki

BA - .325
HR - 26
RBI - 89

xpress34
09-24-2010, 11:42 PM
And as we go into the weekend...

Cargo

BA - .340
HR - 33
RBI - 113

Votto

BA - .323
HR - 35
RBI - 106

Pujols

BA - .310
HR - 41
RBI - 112

Infante

BA - .332 (Not yet qualified for Batting Title - 468 PAs)
HR - 8
RBI - 44

Tulowitzki

BA - .318
HR - 26
RBI - 90

The Rockies have pretty much shot themselves in the foot. Just like before the All-Star Break, they got to within 1 game of 1st Place and fell apart. Last week, they had stormed to within 1 game of 1st Place and they have fallen apart and haven't won a game since getting to the edge.

We were at the game tonight - great pitching duel, but the Rox couldn't get a ball out of the in-field...

- Chris

r_phelps
09-26-2010, 04:58 PM
Pujols would be the hands down winner this year..if anybody ever pitched to him. I watched the cubs game today and saw albert hit a 3 run bomb(42) in the first inning. Then he was walked twice intentionally. I mean come on cubbies I think your post season dreams are over so quit being chickens and pitch to the machine!

rj_lucas
09-26-2010, 05:37 PM
Pujols would be the hands down winner this year..if anybody ever pitched to him.

It's a valid point. The race for NL MVP is so close this year that 'second tier' stats like walks and strikeouts may carry more weight than usual.

Are there any stats junkies out there that can tell us who's got the fewest strikeouts, most walks, and most game-winning RBIs among the big three (Gonzalez, Votto, Pujols)?

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

flota89
09-26-2010, 09:41 PM
SO:
Pujols-75
Votto-118
Gonzalez-130

Walks:
Pujols-98
Votto-87
Gonzalez-40

Who of the three do the pitchers believe is the most dangerous? For me, it has to be Pujols. Gonzalez's MVP credentials are hit pretty bad with 130 SO imho.

flota89
09-26-2010, 09:52 PM
If you dig a little deeper into the stats, you will also see Pujols has 6.7 wins above replacement (1st) and 6.9 offensive WAR (1st). Albert has been on base 280 times this year, also first in the league. I also believe of the three, he brings the best glove to the field. It seems like he saves tons of runs every year.

skier14
09-26-2010, 11:19 PM
If you dig a little deeper into the stats, you will also see Pujols has 6.7 wins above replacement (1st) and 6.9 offensive WAR (1st). Albert has been on base 280 times this year, also first in the league. I also believe of the three, he brings the best glove to the field. It seems like he saves tons of runs every year.

I actually disagree about fielding. Carlos is very fast (by far the fastest of the three) and can field. If you didn't see his catch last night you should check that out, I am a bit biased, but I think it is one of the better plays I have seen all year.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=12463235

Manram
09-26-2010, 11:45 PM
I actually disagree about fielding. Carlos is very fast (by far the fastest of the three) and can field. If you didn't see his catch last night you should check that out, I am a bit biased, but I think it is one of the better plays I have seen all year.

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=12463235

And the kid has a cannon!!!

r_phelps
09-27-2010, 07:21 AM
That catch is very similar to the grab Kalish made for the Red Sox last night to rob Cano except Kalish nailed the landing. Pujols has been red hot since his 2 homer game in Pittsburgh.

AWA85
09-27-2010, 09:57 AM
With stats being so close all around, I am going to take the bias road and say which player is leading his team to the playoffs. Yes, the Rockies may have a chance but Mr. Votto will be playing postseason baseball not Pujols this year.

rj_lucas
09-27-2010, 02:29 PM
With stats being so close all around, I am going to take the bias road and say which player is leading his team to the playoffs. Yes, the Rockies may have a chance but Mr. Votto will be playing postseason baseball not Pujols this year.

If the Cardinals were in the middle of the pack, I might agree with you. But as we enter the final week of the season, the Cards have not been (mathematically) eliminated from the postseason. The point being, they got close enough to keep the postseason from being an overriding consideration in the MVP award, in my opinion.

Of course, it can be won even from the middle of the pack, as Albert did in 2008 with the Cardinals fourth in the division. If he finishes the season leading in home runs and RBIs, top five in BA, with significantly more walks and fewer strikeouts than Votto or Gonzalez, I don't see how Pujols could not be the frontrunner for the award.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

flota89
09-27-2010, 05:13 PM
If the Cardinals were in the middle of the pack, I might agree with you. But as we enter the final week of the season, the Cards have not been (mathematically) eliminated from the postseason. The point being, they got close enough to keep the postseason from being an overriding consideration in the MVP award, in my opinion.

Of course, it can be won even from the middle of the pack, as Albert did in 2008 with the Cardinals fourth in the division. If he finishes the season leading in home runs and RBIs, top five in BA, with significantly more walks and fewer strikeouts than Votto or Gonzalez, I don't see how Pujols could not be the frontrunner for the award.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com
Great point. The Cardinals and Reds really aren't that far apart, so how would it be fair to punish Albert for having the lesser team this year?

lakeerie92
09-27-2010, 06:30 PM
Great point. The Cardinals and Reds really aren't that far apart, so how would it be fair to punish Albert for having the lesser team this year?
I think more than likely Pujols will get passed on for the MVP because he has won the last two, and it gets boring awarding it to the same person every year. In past years it was hands down his award, but this year there a several close competitors and I think that and using the excuse that his BA is 20 points below his career average will be used as a reason to spread the award around a little.

sportscrazy13
09-27-2010, 07:43 PM
I think more than likely Pujols will get passed on for the MVP because he has won the last two, and it gets boring awarding it to the same person every year. In past years it was hands down his award, but this year there a several close competitors and I think that and using the excuse that his BA is 20 points below his career average will be used as a reason to spread the award around a little.

You bring up one of the most valid points when it comes to Pujols and the MVP. It gets boring awarding it to him or he already has one, lets give it to someone else. It seems like more and more every year they look for reasons not to give it to him, even though year in and year out he has about the best overall numbers.

I think Votto will win this year only cause the Cardinals will miss the playoffs, and Votto and Pujols numbers are so close. If the Cards made the wildcard then I think it would go to Albert.

AWA85
09-27-2010, 08:24 PM
Not sure I would say the Cardinals are really "close" or have been for awhile, 6.5 games and it has been as high as 8 or so the past few weeks is a decent chunk. Teams do not make up that type of spread unless large meltdowns by one team.

Also not to start something but I wouldn't say Votto is significantly far behind him in walks and some of those statistics. At the same point Votto has played in about 8 or 9 less games then Pujols has and still amassed the stats.

Once again not trying to start a fight, just the Reds fan viewpoint.

flota89
09-27-2010, 08:56 PM
Not sure I would say the Cardinals are really "close" or have been for awhile, 6.5 games and it has been as high as 8 or so the past few weeks is a decent chunk. Teams do not make up that type of spread unless large meltdowns by one team.

Also not to start something but I wouldn't say Votto is significantly far behind him in walks and some of those statistics. At the same point Votto has played in about 8 or 9 less games then Pujols has and still amassed the stats.

Once again not trying to start a fight, just the Reds fan viewpoint.
I think close was just meaning not eliminated with a week to go. While they aren't going to get to post season, the Reds don't have a gigantic lead, but a good one.

While Votto is having a great year, I still believe Pujols is having a better year. If I was a Reds fan, I would probably argue Votto was. I am curious to see what others think on the issue, without worrying about which team is in first.

If we took away team standings, who would everyone vote for based purely on all the stats?

flota89
09-27-2010, 08:59 PM
You bring up one of the most valid points when it comes to Pujols and the MVP. It gets boring awarding it to him or he already has one, lets give it to someone else. It seems like more and more every year they look for reasons not to give it to him, even though year in and year out he has about the best overall numbers.

I think Votto will win this year only cause the Cardinals will miss the playoffs, and Votto and Pujols numbers are so close. If the Cards made the wildcard then I think it would go to Albert.
I have heard others use that exact argument except saying Albert would have the edge because he has won before. In the past writers have given MVP's to the same players (Pujols, Bonds).

lakeerie92
09-28-2010, 12:10 PM
I have heard others use that exact argument except saying Albert would have the edge because he has won before. In the past writers have given MVP's to the same players (Pujols, Bonds).
You are right that they do occasionally give it to the same player, but only once in the history of baseball has a player won the MVP in three consecutive years, and that was when Bonds won it in 4 consecutive years. In those Bonds years 2001 he hit 73 HR, 2002 he hit .370 with a .582 OBP, 2003 .529 OBP, 2004 .609 OBP. Alberts is a .414 and his numbers are so close to other players that I don't think he warrants being put in that category as the only other player to win 3 consecutive MVPs. Not yet at least

sox83cubs84
09-28-2010, 02:10 PM
Of course, if you want to turn the contender argument on its head and also add coinsideration to repeat winners, conside the NL's FIRST repeat winner...Hall of Famer Cubs SS Ernie Banks, who took home the award in 1958 and 1959, with the Cubs finihing uner .500 both times. Aberrations DO happen.

sox83cubs84
09-28-2010, 02:12 PM
Of course, if you want to turn the contender argument on its head and also add coinsideration to repeat winners, conside the NL's FIRST repeat winner...Hall of Famer Cubs SS Ernie Banks, who took home the award in 1958 and 1959, with the Cubs finihing uner .500 both times. Aberrations DO happen.

Clarification...Banks was the first NL repeat winner in CONSECUTIVE SEASONS.

Dave M.

rj_lucas
09-28-2010, 03:59 PM
Alberts is a .414 and his numbers are so close to other players that I don't think he warrants being put in that category as the only other player to win 3 consecutive MVPs.

The difference between Votto's .426 OPS and Pujols' .414 is statistically insignificant. So I guess that disqualifies Votto too. That and the fact that he doesn't lead in a single offensive category of course.

But at least both are well ahead of Gonzalez' OPS of .381. That and his 'Coors effect' splits (.386 average at home, .293 on the road, 26 HR at home, *8* on the road) should preclude him from any serious consideration for MVP.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

lakeerie92
09-28-2010, 07:40 PM
The difference between Votto's .426 OPS and Pujols' .414 is statistically insignificant. So I guess that disqualifies Votto too. That and the fact that he doesn't lead in a single offensive category of course.

But at least both are well ahead of Gonzalez' OPS of .381. That and his 'Coors effect' splits (.386 average at home, .293 on the road, 26 HR at home, *8* on the road) should preclude him from any serious consideration for MVP.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

You aren't listening to what I am saying. Bonds' through the roof OBP made it near impossible to give the MVP to anybody else. Those numbers will never be touched again. My argument is that Pujols has no through the roof numbers that make it impossible to give it to somebody else. His numbers are close to everybody else's. My opinion is Pujols isn't going to win it because he has one that past two and he is a boring pick. I was just trying to illustrate why that was my opinion

rj_lucas
09-28-2010, 08:19 PM
Oh I hear you, believe me. Nobody knows better than Albert's fans that two of Bonds' MVP awards (2002, 2003) should have gone to Pujols.

So you'll have to forgive us if we can't accept 'he is a boring pick' as a reason not to give him the MVP :)

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

lakeerie92
09-28-2010, 10:41 PM
Oh I hear you, believe me. Nobody knows better than Albert's fans that two of Bonds' MVP awards (2002, 2003) should have gone to Pujols.

So you'll have to forgive us if we can't accept 'he is a boring pick' as a reason not to give him the MVP :)

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

I am unbiased either way because I don't have a dog in the race. I am only making my prediction as to what will happen. I would like a Votto bat at some point and winning the MVP will only cause me to pay more so I should probably be rooting for Pujols in that sense.

xpress34
10-05-2010, 01:43 PM
FINAL NUMBERS:


Cargo

BA - .336 - BATTING CHAMP
HR - 34
RBI - 117

Votto

BA - .324
HR - 37
RBI - 113

Pujols

BA - .312
HR - 42 - HOME RUN CHAMP
RBI - 118 - RBI CHAMP

Infante

BA - .321 (Qualified but couldn't keep up the pace)
HR - 8
RBI - 47

Tulowitzki (Not bad numbers for a guy who missed 40 games!)

BA - .312
HR - 28
RBI - 103

That said, I think VOTTO is MVP - Right in the pack and his team is going to the Post Season. Infante's team is going too, but his number's don't bear out MVP consideration.

lakeerie92
10-05-2010, 02:32 PM
That said, I think VOTTO is MVP - Right in the pack and his team is going to the Post Season. Infante's team is going too, but his number's don't bear out MVP consideration.

I was hoping Omar could pull out the batting title, but his slump coincided with the Braves slump over the past few weeks. He definately wasn't an MVP candidate, but I am glad to see him prove to many of the nay sayers that complained about his All-Star selection wrong.

Manram
10-05-2010, 05:02 PM
Not trying to start any controversy but how would votto win it over Cargo?? Cargo beat him in average, rbi's, and not to mention sb

kellsox
10-05-2010, 05:30 PM
Votto led his team that was supposed to do nothing to the playoffs. Votto has less help in the lineup than Gonzalez. Its not a head to head comparison of stats- especially when they are basically identical- and most voters don't put much weight in sb's(juan pierre doesn't garner much mvp talk) . Votto put up great #s and was far more valuable to his team.

rj_lucas
10-06-2010, 02:28 PM
Well, the votes have been cast so it is what it is, but if Votto wins it will only prove (yet again) that sportswriters can no longer be entrusted to preserve the integrity of the game.

People are quick to dismiss the numbers, but the numbers are facts. Everything else is subjective, which is why the 'playoff factor' is a minor consideration. A-Rod won the MVP on a last place team for crying out loud (2003).

Here are the facts. Albert Pujols led the NL in HR and RBIs, had more hits, extra base hits, and scored more runs than Joey Votto. Pujols had more walks, more intentional walks, and more total bases than Votto. Pujols had 76 strike outs, Votto 125 (!).

Votto did not lead in a single triple crown category. Can anyone name the last player to win the MVP without leading in at least one category? Has it ever happened?

Keep all these things in mind when Votto is announced as the winner, which I fully expect, and watch as baseball's long and glorious history takes another body blow.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

rdeversole
10-06-2010, 02:49 PM
Seems like you have something against Votto. MVP = most valuable player. He led his team to a enormously successful winning season and into the post season. He's responsible for so many Reds wins. If you take him out of the picture, then the Reds wouldn't have achieved either. Does the MVP award actually have any formal correlation to leading in the triple crown categories? Being in the top 5 in numerous categories is usually a good thing. The rest of the candidates didn't even make the playoffs, which is a pretty good measure of success. The playoff factor would be minor, except Votto is the main reason why this was accomplished. He led the team to a division title, into the post season, and with phenomenal, balanced, and big numbers. None of the other guys in the NL did this. He was more valuable to his team than any of the other contenders. My opinion, but I see nothing wrong with Votto winning the award. He earned it.

rj_lucas
10-06-2010, 03:11 PM
Seems like you have something against Votto.

I like Joey Votto. He's a great player, and (more important to me) a great guy. He gets my vote as the 2010 Cincinnati Reds MVP.

But not as the the 2010 National League MVP, for the reasons I've stated.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

lakeerie92
10-06-2010, 04:02 PM
Votto did not lead in a single triple crown category. Can anyone name the last player to win the MVP without leading in at least one category? Has it ever happened?

Dustin Pedroia in 2008 was second in BA. He had 17 HR and 83 RBIs.

rj_lucas
10-06-2010, 04:26 PM
Dustin Pedroia in 2008 was second in BA. He had 17 HR and 83 RBIs.

Good call, so it's been done, and recently. I'm not an American League guy, but for the Cabrera and Hamilton fans out there, was Pedroia the right pick in '08?

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

lakeerie92
10-06-2010, 04:48 PM
Good call, so it's been done, and recently. I'm not an American League guy, but for the Cabrera and Hamilton fans out there, was Pedroia the right pick in '08?

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

I seem to remember him being the logical choice that year. There was a wide desparity in the Triple Crown. Mauer had the batting title by 2 points. Cabrera had the HR title by 1 HR and Hamilton had the RBIs by a few. None of those guys were high up on the lists other than the ones they led. Pedroia got 81% of the vote so he ran away with it for the most part. I don't imagine this years NL MVP race will be won by that high of a margin.

justinbittner220
10-06-2010, 05:25 PM
Does anyone know what the contenders' on base percentages are?

lakeerie92
10-06-2010, 07:45 PM
Does anyone know what the contenders' on base percentages are?

Votto: .424

Pujols: .414

Gonzalez: .376 (Surprisingly the lowest despite winning the batting title)

Fnazxc0114
10-06-2010, 08:42 PM
If kinsler had not of gotten hurt at the end of the 08 season his numbers would have been better than pedroia's. Even after missing the last six weeks of the season he still had numbers that were even with pedroia through the course of the season. The east coast media bias is the only reason he won it. Hope votto wins.

legaleagle92481
10-06-2010, 09:11 PM
Well, the votes have been cast so it is what it is, but if Votto wins it will only prove (yet again) that sportswriters can no longer be entrusted to preserve the integrity of the game.

People are quick to dismiss the numbers, but the numbers are facts. Everything else is subjective, which is why the 'playoff factor' is a minor consideration. A-Rod won the MVP on a last place team for crying out loud (2003).

Here are the facts. Albert Pujols led the NL in HR and RBIs, had more hits, extra base hits, and scored more runs than Joey Votto. Pujols had more walks, more intentional walks, and more total bases than Votto. Pujols had 76 strike outs, Votto 125 (!).

Votto did not lead in a single triple crown category. Can anyone name the last player to win the MVP without leading in at least one category? Has it ever happened?

Keep all these things in mind when Votto is announced as the winner, which I fully expect, and watch as baseball's long and glorious history takes another body blow.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

It has happened more than one would think. Besides Dustin. In the past 25 years in the NL the following players won MVP without leading the league in a Triple Crown Category: Jimmy Rollins in 2007, your man Pujols in 2005 AND 2008, Bonds in 90, 92, AND 03 Kent in 2000, Chipper in 99, Ken Caminiti in 96, Barry Larkin in 95 and Kirk Gibson in 88 for a total of 11 out of 25. In the AL it was: Dustin in 08, Morneau in 06, Vlad in 04, Tejada in 02, Giambi in 2000, Pudge in 99, Gonzalez in 96, Frank Thomas in 93 AND 94, Cal Rikpen Jr. in 91, Rickey Henderson in 90, and Robin Yount in 1989. For a total of 12 out of 25. Overall it is 23 out of 50 or almost 50%. Yount and Riken both won a first MVP each over 25 years ago and did not lead the league in any Triple Crown stats in those years either.

lakeerie92
10-06-2010, 09:49 PM
If kinsler had not of gotten hurt at the end of the 08 season his numbers would have been better than pedroia's. Even after missing the last six weeks of the season he still had numbers that were even with pedroia through the course of the season. The east coast media bias is the only reason he won it. Hope votto wins.

You are absolutely right about his statistics mirroring Pedroia's at the plate, but for that season's MVP it was definitely more of an overall body of work. Kinsler had 3 times as many errors as Pedroia who only had 6. It is never perfect and a big market team that is on ESPN every night is going to garner more attention, but I felt Pedroia's was well deserved.

Fnazxc0114
10-06-2010, 10:27 PM
kinsler also didnt sniff the playoffs, or win a world series.