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coxfan
08-18-2010, 05:06 PM
At a University of South Carolina baseball game around mid-season, I saw that a middle-aged man had bought a HR ball, just hit by a gamecock, for $20. He bought it from a boy aged about 10 or 11. The boy's parents weren't around, as this occurred on the wrap-around concourse at the gamecocks' new stadium. People can walk around that concourse and see the game from any angle, including the outfield, so HR balls are readily caught out there.

Usually there's a gang of kids everywhere, so adults have little chance for balls hit on the concourse. But I wonder about the ethics of buying from a kid. Does he understand the true value of a potential life-long memory? Does he feel uncomfortable saying "no" to an adult?

The issue became more significant when the gamecocks won the College World Series with a spectacular NCAA run, though nobody could have predicted that at the time of this mid-season game. Opinions?

Jules9
08-18-2010, 05:16 PM
He's probably the same guy that goes to Toys r us in the morning and runs to the Hot Wheels and Mcfarlane sections.

No reason to buy the ball from the kid. Christ.....it's just a ball.



On the other hand, the ball might be worth 5 bucks and the kid received more than he ever would have gotten if he tried to sell it later ;)

Chris78
08-18-2010, 05:24 PM
At 10-11 years old, if the kid really wanted the ball he would have said no to the adult. The ball is not worth $20 either so the adult is not ripping off the kid.

Chris

sox83cubs84
08-18-2010, 06:21 PM
At least he gave the kid something of value. Back in the 1990s at Wrigley Field, one Ballhawk of the era used to hang buy the bullpen areas, as home runs that were thrown back were tossed to the closest bullpen once they were retrieved by the outfielder. This guy would run down and ask the kid excitedly to "see" his home run ball. The parents were almost always distracted by the game, cell phone calls, or whatever, so the kid would hand this Ballhawk his home run ball. The 'Hawk would examine it, but would use sleight of hand to pull a switch and give the kid a relatively worthless BP ball back instead of his home run. The guy once bragged to me about his switcheroos, and was proud that no kid had ever caught on to the deception. Pretty lame way to gyp a kid out of a home run ball.

Dave Miedema

joelsabi
08-18-2010, 09:23 PM
This thread reminded me of when I used to set up at card shows and there was this dealer's kid that would go around and try to trade with other dealers. On more than one occassion, I saw the kid's dad go storming to the dealer that the kid traded with and demand the cards back. Us dealers use to say that it was really the dealer's cards but that another subject in itself.

I think legally you cannot trade with a minor and you can be forced to return the trade (money for goods and vice versa). I know of some dealers who at least ask the kid if he get his dad's permission before pawning off his unwanted cards. Personally, I told the kid no thanks for his offer to trade.

In your example, personally I think its unethical for the transaction to occur. To me, whether he got fair value is the transaction is not the point. It's the behavior of an adult who feels its acceptable to negotiate with a kid that is wrong. I think the best thing for the man to do is to ask the parent first before asking the child. I can see this being a difficult and uncomfortable situation for a kid. I would be upset with any man who offered money to my kid without my knowledge.

cliffjmp33
08-18-2010, 09:41 PM
Not sure what to make of it all. Only thing I can hope for is that the older gentleman was buying the ball because it was his son who hit the HR.

legaleagle92481
08-18-2010, 10:20 PM
Well how about on here? There are some minors on here as we saw in that post that time asking for everyone's age. I think we have a few in the 12-15 range. Would you sell them something or buy something from them from the classifieds on here?

cincy13
08-18-2010, 10:26 PM
I usually ask the kid I'm doing business with, where their parent or guardian is, if I'm dealing in anything above 20 dollars. I will ask the adult in charge if the transaction is "ok". We don't ignore kids, they are our future in collecting, we treat them with respect. We just want to make sure their guardians are "ok" with the transaction. Knock on wood, we have never had a problem, in fact, we have some long time buyers because of our policy.

gorilla777
08-18-2010, 10:28 PM
Well how about on here? There are some minors on here as we saw in that post that time asking for everyone's age. I think we have a few in the 12-15 range. Would you sell them something or buy something from them from the classifieds on here?

No, I would not buy or sell to/from one of the kiddies. It is hard enough to have deals go professionally with the adults at times.

joelsabi
08-18-2010, 10:32 PM
Well how about on here? There are some minors on here as we saw in that post that time asking for everyone's age. I think we have a few in the 12-15 range. Would you sell them something or buy something from them from the classifieds on here?


Personally I would not feel comfortable. I do not have anything against a kid starting a game used collection and think it is great. I wish it was available to me at that young of an age. But I think in the end there are just too many possible scenarios where the transaction goes bad and the parent will run interference on their behalf. I do not want to be placed in a position where someone can claim that I have taken advantage of a minor in any shape or form. I pretty much know based on someone's posts and interaction on the forum whether they are an adult and possess a credit card to complete a transaction. Besides there is always the possibilty of completing a transaction with the parent but I would need to speak to the parent on the phone before I would consider it.

coxfan
08-19-2010, 06:45 AM
Thanks to all for your comments. I'm personally uncomfortable trading with 12-year-olds without parents' okay.

I will point out that the Gamecocks's national championship this year made that HR ball worth a lot more than $20 to a lot of gamecock fans. College baseball is big in the SEC and ACC, where the crowds and spirit-level exceed those of most minor-league professional teams. Considering that nearly 300 Division I schools have baseball teams, but only one wins the national title, a HR ball from a national champion would be a rare and virtually priceless artifact to a lot of that team's fans.

34swtns
08-19-2010, 08:26 AM
He's probably the same guy that goes to Toys r us in the morning and runs to the Hot Wheels and Mcfarlane sections.....


In which case he's probably wasting his time. The employees pick through that stuff and take the "chase" items before they ever hit the shelves at all the stores in my area. They know what to look for and what it's worth. :rolleyes:

treant985
08-19-2010, 03:00 PM
I guess going to the parents can't hurt, but I can't count how many times I've gone to games where parents are making their little kids go to the dugout to ask for cracked bats....which the kid doesn't want, but the dad sure does.

I've bought some bats from people who are about 17yrs old. At that age, I don't feel bad if I get a good deal on the item. These people are old enough to get a drivers license (notice I didn't say old enough to actually "drive"). But I usually let them set the first price, so that way I'm not unduly influencing them if I start with a lowball offer.

All I can say is that if people hadn't dealt with me when I was 12 yrs old and buying basketball cards, I never would've gotten into collecting. Even when you're 12, you learn real fast which people you can trust.

treant985
08-19-2010, 03:01 PM
In which case he's probably wasting his time. The employees pick through that stuff and take the "chase" items before they ever hit the shelves at all the stores in my area. They know what to look for and what it's worth. :rolleyes:

Did you just self-identify as 'that guy' who goes to toys r us in the mornings to get hot wheels?:p

trsent
08-19-2010, 06:33 PM
He's probably the same guy that goes to Toys r us in the morning and runs to the Hot Wheels and Mcfarlane sections.

I know that guy! Every morning for 15-20 years he is at Target when they open their doors. Now get this, he won't sell any of his findings. He bought like 50 Hot Wheels for $8.00 each, told me they are going for $50.00 each on eBay. I said why don't you sell 25 and the other half are free and profit. He didn't like that idea. He thinks they will be worth more down the road.

Most everything he has had has gone down in value down the road, and the funny catch is the guy is always broke! Go figure.


This thread reminded me of when I used to set up at card shows and there was this dealer's kid that would go around and try to trade with other dealers. On more than one occassion, I saw the kid's dad go storming to the dealer that the kid traded with and demand the cards back. Us dealers use to say that it was really the dealer's cards but that another subject in itself.

I think legally you cannot trade with a minor and you can be forced to return the trade (money for goods and vice versa). I know of some dealers who at least ask the kid if he get his dad's permission before pawning off his unwanted cards. Personally, I told the kid no thanks for his offer to trade.

In your example, personally I think its unethical for the transaction to occur. To me, whether he got fair value is the transaction is not the point. It's the behavior of an adult who feels its acceptable to negotiate with a kid that is wrong. I think the best thing for the man to do is to ask the parent first before asking the child. I can see this being a difficult and uncomfortable situation for a kid. I would be upset with any man who offered money to my kid without my knowledge.

As a former sports card store owner I can clearly tell you that if you buy/trade with a minor, the parents have legal rights to void the contract as you cannot enter into a contract with a minor.

Buying or selling or trading with a minor, this is a risk all merchants take but it is also when common sense has to be used.

Chris78
08-20-2010, 08:43 AM
As a former sports card store owner I can clearly tell you that if you buy/trade with a minor, the parents have legal rights to void the contract as you cannot enter into a contract with a minor.

Buying or selling or trading with a minor, this is a risk all merchants take but it is also when common sense has to be used.

I remember back when I was that age that I had bought at baseball card shows. Some dealers sold to me while others may have wanted a parent. However, the real reason why I may have gotten my father would be to help "deal" with the dealer depending on the situation. My father told me then that sometimes you may not have to pay that price and he was normally correct. A dealer is more likely to "deal" with an adult then with a kid.

As far as with the situation mentioned with the college ball for $20, it would probably be a good topic for a college business classroom discussion. You could add info to it (i.e. middle aged man was player's father, 10-11 year old wanted a cracked bat from team store that was $20) to see how people's opinions would change on the topic. Personally, as I stated above, the ball is probably not worth $20. A grown adult buying a ball from a kid could be viewed unethical and I personally would not do this unless the ball was very special to me in some way (my child's, relative's home run ball and I would talk to the parents as well to show the meaning of the ball). Also, nobody has stated that the ball may not have had that much meaning to the kid and the $20 might mean a lot more as he could buy something that means more to him. Should the kid have to keep the ball then if the ball does not mean anything to him?

sox83cubs84
02-08-2011, 09:53 PM
There are also times, too, where a slick kid can take advantage of a clueless adult. One need look no further than the Nolan Ryan rookie card case of about 20 years ago.

A suburban store owner had a Ryan rookie card out with a price tag that read $3000. A smart but unethical kid asked to see the card, and asked the woman behind the counter if the card was $30.00 (not $3,000). The woman, the owner's wife, who didn't know a rookie card from a Christmas card, agreed, and sold the kid the card for 1% of the actual price. The kid's purchase became a news story in our area...the kid's dad, from whom he apparently learned his lousy ethics, defended his kid's actions, while the store owner filed a lawsuit. The issue had a happy ending, though, as both parties agreed to put the card up for a charity auction, in which the card, now slabbed and authenticated as THE Nolan Ryan rookie card (from the dispute) went for around $5,600.

Kids have a image of being ripfor the pickings by smamrmy adults, but, once in a while, the kids (and their parents) are smarmier than the adults who want to deal with them.

Dave Miedema

mad87man
02-08-2011, 11:15 PM
When i was growing up (not too long ago i am 23 now) i always worked as a teenager/older kid. When i was about 12 i believe i would cut my 2 neighbors lawns for around 25$ each a month. It was big money for me at the time but i used to get to spend some of it and i wish i knew about things like this. not on this grand a level as a whole jersey or such expensive things but i always loved hobbies.

About the kid selling the ball to the guy? I find that to be a little weird myself. I mean maybe the kids was intimidated by the older man. I think if i was in the kids shoes and was young young i prob. would of yelled and ran away lol.

mdb240
02-09-2011, 08:17 PM
I'm new to the board but I would like to chime in on this. This past baseball season I went to a minor league baseball game with my family. On my way to the concession stands a foul ball ended up landing near me while I was drinking out of the water fountain. A Group of kids ended up with the ball, probably around 14 Years old or so. My older brother just bought a new baseball glove that day and brought it to the game. He never caught a foul baseball and thought he would like something for his new glove. I offered the girl who caught it $10 which was what I had in my pocket. She was hesitant at first because she wanted more money which is what it was for her. I said take it or leave it, I'm just trying to do something nice for my brother. She agreed as well as the group of friends. I got back to the seats and the the ball to my brother. I had no problems with this deal since she was there for the social aspect of the game. Btw, I was 28 and my brother was 32. He loved the ball because I thought enough to get it for him.

coxfan
02-11-2011, 10:52 AM
This topic brought a lot of really good and diverse opinions. The big issue concerns the rarity and/or uniqueness of the item, and whether a kid is competent to judge its current and potential future value. I think most of us would want parental consent before buying a rare or unique item from a kid; as is the case with a HR ball from a team in running for a national title. That occurred here, since the gamecocks won the College World Series later that season. You can't always put a price-tag on a memory, and on an artifact from that memory.

But the minor's age is also relevant; there's a big difference between 10 and 17. And yes, kids sometimes exploit adults. I've seen kids beg for balls, while hiding the two they already have that they'd
already begged from others!

And it's true that some adults never had a chance to get g-u stuff as kids. I grew up in a small town that was 500 miles from the nearest MLB city. My first g-u item was a minor-league foul when I was in my 30's. I got that only because it rolled under my car, out of sight of kids.

For that reason, I plan to teach my grandsons not to beg for balls from adults; just be patient and get their own the usual way. And don't sell them!

Copa
02-11-2011, 12:51 PM
This situation happened to me just a couple of weeks ago.

I was at an NAHL (junior) hockey game and had a puck come flying over the boards into my section...there was a group of three kids, probably between 10-12 years old, that ended up running over to pick it up...as they were walking back to their seats, I held up my hand, signaling that I would pay $5 for the puck...he ran right over and gladly made the exchange...a couple of minutes later, he came back with a pizza and pop, and seemed genuinely happy he made the deal...I looked at it as the puck meant more to me than the $5, and the $5 meant more to him than the puck...I think as long as you're not trying to pull a fast one on the kid, there shouldn't be an issue with it.

3arod13
02-11-2011, 07:14 PM
Article from a 2008 Tuff Stuff Sports Collectors magazine.

sox83cubs84
02-12-2011, 09:18 PM
Another tale of a not-so-innocent kid.

Four or five adults, plus myself, plus 2 kids, a girl about 11 and a boy about 9, were present at the Wrigley Field visitors' entrance in 1984, when Dave Parker emerged from a cab. The Cobra was notorious as a "kids only" signer, so the adults (including me) approached with ione or two items, while the kids, no dummies, were bold: the boy had 6 cards and the girl had 8. Parker knelt on the ground and patiently signed every card both kids presented him, all the while lecturing the gathered adults about how it was so terrible for greedy adults like us to make money off the players, ad nauseum.

Parker finished signing for the kids, and went inside he park. The moment he was out of sight, the boy turned to me and said "Here...20 bucks and you can have all these".

So much for youthful innocence.:p

Dave Miedema

gingi79
02-12-2011, 09:55 PM
No such thing as an innocent child today. I worked at travel camps and have been around kids for over a decade in baseball parks every summer.

They know this stuff is worth money and better yet, they all feel entitled to it for free. Parents don't teach manners anymore and frankly, they deserve less than nothing.

Fans who pay for tickets every year, buy overpriced hats and jerseys, hot dogs and beer are the ones who deserve baseballs and broken bats not self-important spoiled brats.

The phrase "It's for the kids" is no longer rational. Children need to learn they deserve nothing until they earn it. Spending 25 years at ball games and finally catching a ball? You earned it. When I was a kid, I was taught to appreciate things and that I am owed nothing. Now when I get something, it means something and I am appreciative.

STLHAMMER32
02-12-2011, 10:14 PM
No such thing as an innocent child today. I worked at travel camps and have been around kids for over a decade in baseball parks every summer.

They know this stuff is worth money and better yet, they all feel entitled to it for free. Parents don't teach manners anymore and frankly, they deserve less than nothing.

Fans who pay for tickets every year, buy overpriced hats and jerseys, hot dogs and beer are the ones who deserve baseballs and broken bats not self-important spoiled brats.

The phrase "It's for the kids" is no longer rational. Children need to learn they deserve nothing until they earn it. Spending 25 years at ball games and finally catching a ball? You earned it. When I was a kid, I was taught to appreciate things and that I am owed nothing. Now when I get something, it means something and I am appreciative.


I also work with youth programs every summer....yes there are some kids that make you shake your head but to say there are no innocent kids who or "spoiled brats" left is just dead wrong. Many of the kids I have worked with are from broken homes and have little to nothing at home. This past weekend we got a donation of cheap rubber basketballs that the kids got to keep and their reaction would compare to an adult winning a new car. There are plenty of kids that are disrespectful but there also some good kids out there as well that make the experience of giving worthwhile.

Chris78
02-12-2011, 11:42 PM
It really comes down to the intent of what you are doing, which kinda relates to what I said when responding to this before. If you are paying $5 for a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle or the 1909 Honus Wagner then what you are doing is totally wrong and unethical -- especially with a kid. If my child just got a Ryan Howard cracked bat from the player and an adult offered $10 or $20 for it, I would be really upset with the adult.

If you are paying $10 for a foul ball that has no significant meaning or $15 for a pro stock cracked bat of a single-A player, and you can explain your reasoning on why you want the ball or bat, I probably would not have a problem with it. However, if the parent decides it is a bad deal then you would have to do the exchange back. The parent is most likely going to want to know where/how the child got the money.

I think it really comes down to the case that is involved and what the intent is of the adult. As I said before, the item may mean nothing to the kid and they might rather have the money instead. If I were the parent, I would say yes or no before the transaction takes place. I might even pay my child the money that was offered to keep the item as with the Ryan Howard example.

Chris

Klattsy
02-13-2011, 08:39 PM
No such thing as an innocent child today.

They know this stuff is worth money and better yet, they all feel entitled to it for free. Parents don't teach manners anymore and frankly, they deserve less than nothing.

Children need to learn they deserve nothing until they earn it. Spending 25 years at ball games and finally catching a ball? You earned it. When I was a kid, I was taught to appreciate things and that I am owed nothing. Now when I get something, it means something and I am appreciative.

+1 to that.

Our National baseball league started up again this year. About half way through the season kids had cottoned on to how foul balls work, and for every game over the second half of the season there would have been about 15 kids at each dugout leaning over saying "Gimmie a ball" "Throw it here" or even "Yep yep yep" expecting something for nothing.

Was I jealous that they where getting GU items, not at all, but it certainly disgusted me that none of these kids had enough manors to patiently ask for a ball or wait for it to be offered to them.

Maybe i'm just getting old and bitter.

Mark.

shaunharr
02-13-2011, 08:47 PM
No such thing as an innocent child today. I worked at travel camps and have been around kids for over a decade in baseball parks every summer.

They know this stuff is worth money and better yet, they all feel entitled to it for free. Parents don't teach manners anymore and frankly, they deserve less than nothing.

Fans who pay for tickets every year, buy overpriced hats and jerseys, hot dogs and beer are the ones who deserve baseballs and broken bats not self-important spoiled brats.

The phrase "It's for the kids" is no longer rational. Children need to learn they deserve nothing until they earn it. Spending 25 years at ball games and finally catching a ball? You earned it. When I was a kid, I was taught to appreciate things and that I am owed nothing. Now when I get something, it means something and I am appreciative.

As a 16 year old myself, I can honestly say I am not one who feels I am entitled to a player's broken bat, or even an uncracked bat. I know teenagers who ask literally every single ball player who comes out of the clubhouse if they can have a bat after the game if it's cracked, even if they do not know the player's name. I have purchased more than half of my game used bats, because I do not expect a player to give me his bat just because I ask.

Kids described by gingi are kids that I try to avoid when graphing at games.

jppopma
02-14-2011, 01:43 AM
I've seen all angles of this topic. There are bad kids, and there are also bad adults. I often sit in the front row of the bullpen for my boys to be able to see and intact with the players. It is a good life lesson for them to get turned down by players and not get balls; not get mad and also be respectful to the players when asking for a ball, autograph, or simple high five. It's amazing how rude kids and adults alike are when it comes to asking for things. I've had people push me out of the way to stand right in front of my seat, push my wife carrying a baby, or just get downright obnoxious whining to get something or anything....and yes, it's both kids and adults the same.

Count me in the group that has gone to games for 30+ years and never got myself a foul ball. When I finally did get one, the pleasure of handing it to my son far far outweighed any joy of getting it for myself.

When it comes to someone approaching kids to buy something, let me put it in the terms of a protective father and cop. If I see some stranger walk up to my son at a ballgame, he better expect to see me in his face very quickly. Maybe my opinion will change when my sons get older, but for now I don't care what your wants are or how much you are offering him.....

coxfan
02-14-2011, 09:01 AM
Remember that value doesn't always have a price tag. I have a housing letter from UGA in the 1960's that I misunderstood, with the result that I missed out on my preferred dorm. As A result, I lived elsewhere, and that change of location led directly to my meeting my future wife, with whom I've had 40 yerars. Thus, that letter (which I still have) has infinite value to us and our six (so far) descendants because it changed our lives, though it has no monetary value at all.

And that's a problem with kids, who usually have no sense of what artifact may be of value to them 20 years down the road as a memory, regardless of its price tag.