Washing Jerseys

[Dalkiel]

I'm a Game Used novice, and I was wondering if there is any reason not to wash lightly game used or player issued jerseys?

[CampWest]

I'm a Game Used novice, and I was wondering if there is any reason not to wash lightly game used or player issued jerseys?

I personally STRONGLY prefer not altering items post use - adding an autograph being the exception. I want the items as close to when it left the players hands as possible. Also, dirt, pine tar, ball marks, etc can all aid in authenticating an item as genuine (EVIDENCE OF USE is paramount in game used collecting) and if you are lucky that evidence can greatly aid in finding indisputable photo matches.

I would not wash any item I have as a collectible. If I bought a $40 game used jersey to wear, then that could be washed, but not as a collectible.

if there is an unbearable stench that needs to be addressed, try febreze or something that can eliminate odors without altering the appearance and eliminating evidence of use.

[AWA85]

One issue with multiple washings is that it could present more of a look of use on it. Puckering/fading/loose threads all could develop.

[Dalkiel]

Here's why I ask, I sold a jersey to someone and when they received it they washed it. After they washed it they decided they didn't want it and want to return it.

[CampWest]

Here's why I ask, I sold a jersey to someone and when they received it they washed it. After they washed it they decided they didn't want it and want to return it.

Sounds to me like you have a good case to refuse the return because the item has been altered by the other party from the state in which it was delivered and you could be unfairly penalized by their alterations. Just like if they spilled chocolate all over it and stained it - you should not have to take it back.

[cohibasmoker]

Here's why I ask, I sold a jersey to someone and when they received it they washed it. After they washed it they decided they didn't want it and want to return it.

Not the whole story - I bought the jersey and when I received it, I started to research the jersey. I noticed a very important aspect that was missing from the jersey I just received. In checking Getty Images, if one were to look closely at the image, it shows the collar of his Pro Bowl jersey was ripped and/or torn - the jersey I received did NOT have a rip nor was it repaired. I immediately contacted the Seller via email and voiced my concerns about the jersey - the smell was also addressed.

The Seller responded by saying, "Yes, that's the picture that I've seen. I'm not sure what to say about the rip, but the patches seemed to match up [/[I]I]perfectly when I compared them." He did NOT say anything about me NOT washing the jersey.

So, what is the real concern about the jersey? Is it the fact that the jersey does NOT match up to the scan or that I washed the jersey?

To be fair, I have attached a scan of Chris Warren wearing a 1995 Pro Bowl jersey and a scan of the jersey that was sent to me. In the Getty game scan, on Warren's right shoulder (left side of the scan) it can clearly be seen that the collar is ripped and/or torn. The jersey that was sent by had NO repair and/or tear so I sent the jersey back. After the jersey was sent back, then the seller decided to question as to whether or not I can return the jersey.

In closing, after the jersey was washed, the only thing that changed on the jersey was the smell - none of the glue residue was washed off or the jersey altered in any way.

All forum members thoughts are welcomed.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[Dalkiel]

Actually, that sequence of events is not accurate. You first emailed me telling me you washed the jersey because it smelled bad (I never noticed this odor). THEN you emailed me and told me that you don't see the "rip" in the Getty photo on the jersey itself. I'm not convinced that it's a rip, but I concede I could be wrong. The patches seem to match up correctly, and Warren actually tried to buy these jerseys back from me, though that's nothing conclussive. That said, you WASHED the jersey without running it by me first and then decided you did not want to purchase it.

I'm not convinced that what you see is a rip on the Getty image, and the picture of the jersey you furnished really doesn't show anything that could help the case either way. None of this changes the fact that you washed the jersey without my permission.

[cohibasmoker]

David,

Today, your received this email at 0944 hours:

David,

I picked up the Warren jersey and so far, it looks OK. It was a tad "stanky" but that's understandable. I threw it in the washer and hopefully not too much of the glue remnants will come off. I kind of like the idea that the remnants are still on the jersey since Warren thought enough of the jersey to have it framed and displayed in his home. I'll let it air dry so if some of the remnants do come off in the wash, the drier won't take off any remaining remnants.

I'll probably post it on the forum as a "August Pickup". Thanx again and take care
__________________________________________________ _____________
Today, you received this email at 10:34

David,

Good news and bad news. The jersey washed well and none of the glue residue came off. The bad news is, I have attached a close-up scan of Warren wearing his Pro Bowl jersey. Over his right shoulder, you can clearly see that the collar is ripped and/or torn because a piece is sticking up. I believe its a tear because the back of the collar is lying flat. If it were a pull, the back of the collar would not be lying flat.

On the jersey you sent me, there isn't any tear on the collar - your thoughts?

Jim

PS: I'll continue my search
__________________________________________________ _______________
Today, at 11:51 you responded with this email


Jim,

Yes, that's the picture that I've seen. I'm not sure what to say about the rip, but the patches seemed to match up perfectly when I compared them.

David
__________________________________________________ _______________
Today, at 1247, you sent me this email:

While I'm not convinced that there is a tear on the jersey in the picture, feel free to return it.

David Herrell
(Address edited) Apt C
Harrisonburg, VA 22801


Shall I continue? I saved every email we exchanged both on the purchase and the emails I sent you today. Let's see how forum members respond to our threads. Again, what is the issue? The fact that the jersey does NOT match the image in Getty or that I washed the jersey?

Jim

[Dalkiel]

No, those are the emails. Thanks for posting them. As you can see you washed the jersey prior to your realization.

My issue is that you may have, in some way, devalued the jersey by washing it (as indicated by the respondants here). I'm not sure why that's so incredibly difficult to understand.

The "rip" you see is arguable in my opinion, as it doesn't appear to be a rip to me. Nevertheless, if that was the only issue with this transaction I would gladly accept the jersey and give you a refund. Unfortunately that isn't the case.

As I've stated over and over again, I'm not a game used equipment expert. When you told me you washed the jersey, though I thought it was odd, I figured it was a typical practice for game used collectors. However, after thinking about it, I just couldn't wrap my head around washing a game used item so I posted here to ask other experienced collectors how this practice is perceived. And, as you can see, the opinons thus far have been negative.

Regards

[cohibasmoker]

No, those are the emails. Thanks for posting them. As you can see you washed the jersey prior to your realization.

My issue is that you may have, in some way, devalued the jersey by washing it (as indicated by the respondants here). I'm not sure why that's so incredibly difficult to understand.

The "rip" you see is arguable in my opinion, as it doesn't appear to be a rip to me. Nevertheless, if that was the only issue with this transaction I would gladly accept the jersey and give you a refund. Unfortunately that isn't the case.

As I've stated over and over again, I'm not a game used equipment expert. When you told me you washed the jersey, though I thought it was odd, I figured it was a typical practice for game used collectors. However, after thinking about it, I just couldn't wrap my head around washing a game used item so I posted here to ask other experienced collectors how this practice is perceived. And, as you can see, the opinons thus far have been negative.

Regards

The initial comments that were made by forum members were made before they knew the entire situation. It will be interesting to see their comments now that they know the entire situation. Spinning the situation in another direction (washing vs not washing) does NOT change the fact that the jersey does NOT match the jersey worn by Warner during the 1995 Pro Bowl.

So there you have it - lets give the forum members some space to add their comments.

Jim

[Dalkiel]

I completely agree on wanting to hear other opinions.

Further, IF for some reason it isn't the same jersey (which I think it is) it's at the very least player issued, and you still washed it without my permission.

[otismalibu]

Not the whole story - I bought the jersey and when I received it, I started to research the jersey.

It's best to do your research BEFORE the purchase. What if you started researching it 3 months after the purchase? Should you still be able to send it back?

Guess that might depend on how exactly it was sold.

Was it sold as game used or game issued? Any photomatch claims?

If there's even the smallest chance you might want to send it back for a refund (assuming that's an option the seller is giving you), then you can't wash it or make any other alterations to it, IMO.

[Dalkiel]

Thanks for your input.

I offered the jersey for sale believing it to be game used. The buyer said he'd like to buy it as long as I gave him 10 days to research the jersey after he received it. I told him no problem.

He received the jersey today and immediately washed it. Then he started researching, and because of a small "lift" on the collar of the jersey decided he didn't want it. I still contend the item is likely game used.


It's best to do your research BEFORE the purchase. What if you started researching it 3 months after the purchase? Should you still be able to send it back?

Guess that might depend on how exactly it was sold.

Was it sold as game used or game issued? Any photomatch claims?

If there's even the smallest chance you might want to send it back for a refund (assuming that's an option the seller is giving you), then you can't wash it or make any other alterations to it, IMO.

[otismalibu]

I offered the jersey for sale believing it to be game used. The buyer said he'd like to buy it as long as I gave him 10 days to research the jersey after he received it. I told him no problem.

He received the jersey today and immediately washed it. Then he started researching, and because of a small "lift" on the collar of the jersey decided he didn't want it. I still contend the item is likely game used.

Gotcha.

I still wouldn't have washed it, until there was no chance it was going back. A guy once test drove my minty 4x4 and took his wife to A&W and ate in my truck. WTF dude? You can drop fries under the seat when it yours - no sooner.

But if that really is damage in the Getty pic, then he most likely just washed a game issued item, right?

[BU54CB]

Here's my .02 for what its worth.

In my opinon, I can't tell if the portion of the collar is a rip or is just pushed up by something or streched for some reason. I don't see any jagged edges etc. that would definitively indicate its a rip or tear. Is the material stretched abnormally at the point where it looks like its torn in the photo?

As far as washing the jersey, I feel you should have examined it for the photomatching before throwing it in the washer. Other than the smell and the unwashed vs. washed preference of some buyers, the jersey's condition hasn't changed.

It doesn't appear either party has done anything egregious on either end, I'd say return the jersey for a refund, if anything, send a few $$ or some other compensation the sellers way for washing the jersey.

[BU54CB]

Thanks for your input.

I offered the jersey for sale believing it to be game used. The buyer said he'd like to buy it as long as I gave him 10 days to research the jersey after he received it. I told him no problem.

He received the jersey today and immediately washed it. Then he started researching, and because of a small "lift" on the collar of the jersey decided he didn't want it. I still contend the item is likely game used.

I commented before I saw the buyer wanted 10 days to research the jersey's authenticity. I'd say its reasonable to have some sort of return agreement, but the jersey should definitely not have been washed under these circumstances.

[Dalkiel]

Gotcha.

I still wouldn't have washed it, until there was no chance it was going back. A guy once test drove my minty 4x4 and took his wife to A&W and ate in my truck. WTF dude? You can drop fries under the seat when it yours - no sooner.

But if that really is damage in the Getty pic, then he most likely just washed a game issued item, right?

Right. But, in my uneducated opinion only, the "rip" may not be anything more than the jersey pulled up. The assertion that it's damage in the photo is the opinion of the buyer only. They look identical (to me) otherwise.

Again, thanks for your input.

[MarinersFan34]

My .03

To me, the research should have been done before hand, or in this case during the 10 day period, which it has to a degree. However, to me that would also mean that for those 10 days or until a decision is made regarding the purchase or refund NOTHING should be done to the jersey in any way other than physically inspecting it. Use a dryer sheet near your face if it's that bad but spraying fabreeze on it, washing it, wearing it, etc. absolutely NOT. Not until you tell the seller you agree to buy it and there will be no request for a refund should you wash it, do whatever you want with it.

Is it a rip or not? in my mind that's not even an issue here. The seller has one opinion and the buyer has another, that's the end of it. If you did not wash it or alter it in any way during your evaluation period then I agree, a full refund is in order since you are not happy with it. You did alter it in my opinion by washing it, it is not in the same exact condition as when it arrived. I would think coming to some agreeable sum would be the next step but I don't agree a full refund is due.

[cohibasmoker]

I've attached the scan again. Look at the back neck portion of the jersey - it is NOT distorted or pulled up is it? Now, look at the rest of the collar - It is NOT distorted or pulled up is it? If it was a pull, the entire collar would have been distorted. Take any jersey and pinch it between your fingers and you'll see what I am talking about.

As for the Seller's "small lift", according to his earlier email, he stated, Yes, that's the picture that I've seen. I'm not sure what to say about the rip, but the patches seemed to match up perfectly when I compared them.

As for how it was advertised, it was offered on the forum.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=37083

Thanks for the input guys.


Jim

[otismalibu]

I'll say it's either something poking up thru the mesh portion or a rip in the collar portion:)

Someone fire up the Sports Machine!

[cohibasmoker]

I'll say it's either something poking up thru the mesh portion or a rip in the collar portion:)

Someone fire up the Sports Machine!

Otis,

Thanks for your input. I'd like to add the following. If something was poking up from under the jersey, wouldn't the jersey collar be distorted? However, it the collar was ripped and/or torn wouldn't the collar stay flat and the ripped and/or torn section flap in the wind? Anyone who's been to Hawaii can attest to the wind.

Another point I'd like to make is about laundering an item. I totally understand what members are saying about laundering and I'd like to add that 99% of my jerseys have been washed. Are they any less authentic because they were laundered? There are jerseys in the Football and Baseball Hall of Fame - some have been laundered and others have NOT been laundered. Are the laundered jerseys any less authentic than the unlaundered ones?

As for doing your homework - I agree but it NOT until a person actually receives an item and compares it to images and statements can one be sure about the authenticity of an item.

As a example, most of us have sent items to auctions houses right? How does that work?
-Well, we usually contact them asking them if they would be interested in our item. Do they send a contract out at that point? No.
-How about after we send them scans? No.

So, when does an auction house actually agree that an item is authentic and they send out the necessary paperwork? It's after we send them the item so they can physically examine it!!! By the way, I have NEVER had an auction house ask me if an item was ever washed or not.

In closing, the jersey I received does NOT match-up to the jersey in the scan and that is why I asked for a refund. Whether or not I washed the jersey or not is a moot point and as such, I appreciate the input from members. This is an open forum and everyone has an opinion and everyone is more than welcome to keep the thread going.

Jim

[Dalkiel]

It's only clearly a different jersey to one person. You.

By washing the jersey, in my opinion (and I'm perfectly open to hearing contradictory thoughts), you voided any and all agreements we may have made and purchased the item.

[Fnazxc0114]

any chance he wore two jerseys?

[BU54CB]

Otis,

Thanks for your input. I'd like to add the following. If something was poking up from under the jersey, wouldn't the jersey collar be distorted? However, it the collar was ripped and/or torn wouldn't the collar stay flat and the ripped and/or torn section flap in the wind? Anyone who's been to Hawaii can attest to the wind.

Another point I'd like to make is about laundering an item. I totally understand what members are saying about laundering and I'd like to add that 99% of my jerseys have been washed. Are they any less authentic because they were laundered? There are jerseys in the Football and Baseball Hall of Fame - some have been laundered and others have NOT been laundered. Are the laundered jerseys any less authentic than the unlaundered ones?

As for doing your homework - I agree but it NOT until a person actually receives an item and compares it to images and statements can one be sure about the authenticity of an item.

As a example, most of us have sent items to auctions houses right? How does that work?
-Well, we usually contact them asking them if they would be interested in our item. Do they send a contract out at that point? No.
-How about after we send them scans? No.

So, when does an auction house actually agree that an item is authentic and they send out the necessary paperwork? It's after we send them the item so they can physically examine it!!! By the way, I have NEVER had an auction house ask me if an item was ever washed or not.

In closing, the jersey I received does NOT match-up to the jersey in the scan and that is why I asked for a refund. Whether or not I washed the jersey or not is a moot point and as such, I appreciate the input from members. This is an open forum and everyone has an opinion and everyone is more than welcome to keep the thread going.

Jim

I guess I don't understand how you washing the jersey is a moot point? You had an agreement with the seller to examine it for 10 days, correct? Until you told the seller you wanted the jersey, it wasn't yours to do anything with, including throwing it into the washer.

What an auction house asks about a jersey does not apply in this situation, the seller isn't an auction house and the seller is clearly not happy with you washing it.

[cohibasmoker]

I guess I don't understand how you washing the jersey is a moot point? You had an agreement with the seller to examine it for 10 days, correct? Until you told the seller you wanted the jersey, it wasn't yours to do anything with, including throwing it into the washer.

What an auction house asks about a jersey does not apply in this situation, the seller isn't an auction house and the seller is clearly not happy with you washing it.

Understood but does washing the jersey change the authenticity of the jersey? Was it authentic before I washed it and then un-authentic after I washed it? Everything is the same on the jersey, even the tape residue marks, as when I got it except the smell.

Let's not forgot about the fact that the jersey does NOT match the jersey shown on Getty images.

Jim

[otismalibu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaqhOe2wCuo


At the 1:05 mark you can get a decent shot of the back of Warren's jersey. Just for a rough reference for NOB positioning.

Then scroll to about 5:10 and check out the same area of Irvin and then Moon's jersey.

[BU54CB]

Understood but does washing the jersey change the authenticity of the jersey? Was it authentic before I washed it and then un-authentic after I washed it? Everything is the same on the jersey, even the tape residue marks, as when I got it except the smell.

Let's not forgot about the fact that the jersey does NOT match the jersey shown on Getty images.

Jim

You are correct, it has not changed the authenticity. Regardless, the condition of the jersey has changed for the person you bought it from and are now seeking a refund from.

So far, I have not seen any decisive evidence that the jersey does not match the single image found for this jersey. Surely there is a lot to question, but I don't think you can base the authenticity based on 1 single image. Can you provide any close up photos of the collar in that area?

[BU54CB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaqhOe2wCuo


At the 1:05 mark you can get a decent shot of the back of Warren's jersey. Just for a rough reference for NOB positioning.

Then scroll to about 5:10 and check out the same area of Irvin and then Moon's jersey.

Great footage at the 5:10 mark, shows a possible similar condition on the collar as the jersey in question.

[Dalkiel]

Great footage at the 5:10 mark, shows a possible similar condition on the collar as the jersey in question.

What I'm seeing just looks like maybe the pads or something are pushing the jersey material up along the neck. Is that what you mean?

[cohibasmoker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaqhOe2wCuo


At the 1:05 mark you can get a decent shot of the back of Warren's jersey. Just for a rough reference for NOB positioning.

Then scroll to about 5:10 and check out the same area of Irvin and then Moon's jersey.

So Greg - would you say that, in looking at the video, that the collar condition is something that may have been prevalent on the Pro Bowl jerseys in 1995?

Jim

[terryzom]

The forensic anthropologist in me from my college days says that washing will destroy at least some evidence of use; maybe not all but definitely some. Why risk that especially if it's a "try and buy"? Although I just moved up to gamers, I could just never wash an unwashed piece. If it's just issued, etc. I have no problem doing whatever with it, up to and including alteration...

[otismalibu]

So Greg - would you say that, in looking at the video, that the collar condition is something that may have been prevalent on the Pro Bowl jerseys in 1995?

To me, it looks like Irvin's jersey has something poking up in that same area and Moon's jersey, even more so.

[cohibasmoker]

To me, it looks like Irvin's jersey has something poking up in that same area and Moon's jersey, even more so.

Greg,

I appreciate your efforts - I think you solved the riddle. All you need to do is send me your address and the jacket is yours. I hope you don't mind that Wes Unseld signed the jacket - thanks again,

Jim

[otismalibu]

I appreciate your efforts - I think you solved the riddle. All you need to do is send me your address and the jacket is yours. I hope you don't mind that Wes Unseld signed the jacket - thanks again,

Jim,

I appreciate the generous offer, but it's not necessary.
Just the fact that a hoops photo was posted on the Baseball & Bears Board, is payment enough :)
But if you see some Dr. J. shoes kickin' around, I'd appreciate a heads up.

[Neely8]

I personally STRONGLY prefer not altering items post use - adding an autograph being the exception.

I would say adding an autograph to a game worn jersey is altering it considerably more than washing it.

[Neely8]

I would also add that at least he was up front enough to inform you he did wash it. Do you really think you would have known that if he didn't disclose it? As far as the photo of Warren I would say that it is not conclusive there is a tear on the collar.