Pro-Cut, Game Issued & Game Ready Jerseys - a Definition

[trsent]

Since we debate over this subject, can people reply with there definition of this?

What exactly constitutes a pro-cut, game issued and team issued jersey?

Does a team issued jersey have to come from the team?

What happens when you have a jersey that meets all the specs and tagging of a player but is six sizes too large or too small? Isn't this still a game issued jersey? I do not feel there is a right or wrong answer to this scenario.

People that try to sell a mass produced authentic jersey as team or game issued. For instance, isn't the Manning with short sleeves still a team-issued jersey, since the team is the only one that can get a jersey cut like that?

[Nathan]

I tend to view a TI/GI as being one that was specifically made up for a player that simply did not see the field of play. You do bring up an interesting point about sizing; I know of at least one case where a player who wore a certain size his entire career played with his jersey up a size after suffering a mild shoulder injury. I think it was two games into the season, so his smaller-sized backup jersey would still be TI/GI even though it would have only hung in the locker for a game or two.

As far as a certain cut being only made available to the team, I don't go for that. Peyton Manning has yet to wear short sleeves in a game, just as Brett Favre never wore linemen sleeves in a 1994 NFL game with the throwback unis. Someone taking a bunch of game-style blanks and customizing them for star players (notice there's never a Jerry Fontenot GI/TI jersey for sale) is less GI and more COITS (Clearing Out Inventory To Sell). But taking a team blank and throwing a name and number on it is, to me, no different than a fan slapping his own name and number on a blank authentic. With that case, both of them have about the same connection to the team.

[Eric]

Great topic

You have earned a sticky.
Eric

[trsent]

The Favre throwback jerseys is a good issue to add to this discussion. (I got another Sticky!:))

Not too many people know the story behind them. The Packers had about 100 extra throwback blank jerseys left over after the 1994 season. When Grey Flannel made a bulk purchase from them after the 1996 Super Bowl Season, The Packers offered them these 100 jerseys made up as Brett Favre. The Packers sent them out to there own lettering place and lettered all the extra 1994 throwback jerseys as Brett Favre.

Most of these jerseys were marked inside with green marker "NGU", meaning "Not Game Used". This was done by Grey Flannel to make sure that they could not be passed off as game used. Here is the question, aren't these jerseys all game/team issued? They may not be made to Brett Favre's specs, as actually a few were. Aren't the jerseys with linemen sleeves still team issued?

[RKGIBSON]

I have know Kevin Greene since 93. I ask him about the alteration that were done to his jerseys when he was with the Panthers. He says that at the beginning of the year, or when he wanted his jerseys changed, the equipment guy would have them put the team issued jersey on and they would mark with chalk where he wanted them altered. Modifications were made then they were tried on as many times a it took to get the fit he wanted. The finished product was used as a pattern for the game jerseys. All were modified the same.
He also said that when he was with the Steelers he would sign an average of 10 team issue jerseys a week for the equipment manager and he did not know where they went.
I see so many Pro-cut jersey, that are sold by the team stores, in auctions as game used. These are the jerseys that are not the correct size, not shortened or have wrong sleeves, etc. The team issue jerseys are the correct size and sleeves that are ordered by the team to the players specs needing minor alterations such as tails cut. The Cowboys must have released a lot of game ready, not used, jerseys recently as many were on Ebay, called game used, but with no wear.

[bigtime59]

Since we debate over this subject, can people reply with there definition of this?

What exactly constitutes a pro-cut, game issued and team issued jersey?

Does a team issued jersey have to come from the team?

What happens when you have a jersey that meets all the specs and tagging of a player but is six sizes too large or too small? Isn't this still a game issued jersey? I do not feel there is a right or wrong answer to this scenario.

People that try to sell a mass produced authentic jersey as team or game issued. For instance, isn't the Manning with short sleeves still a team-issued jersey, since the team is the only one that can get a jersey cut like that?

If I buy a blank 48 + 2" year-tagged Orioles jersey at Fanfest (thank goodness that stream has dried up) have "Ripken" and "8" sewn on it in the proper places and sell it as a "team issued Cal Ripken jersey" does that make me merely dishonest, or something more?

By my definition, a "team-issued" jersey has to have originated with the team, and been made for the player in question. (There are exceptions to this rule, as the Orioles did re-issue some jerseys in 1994, so you have name plates on the jersey that don't match the name on the year tag, but that kind of thing doesn't happen with the "superstar" jerseys this thread is probably actually concerned with.)

BTW, how would someone come up with a "team issued" or "pro cut" Russell Alex Rodriguez Mariners jersey in some absurdly large size? Could they have availed themselves of Mariners blanks in the great Russell dump-off that followed Majestic getting the contract for the league, and then had the Pay-Rod name and number sewn on it? Hmmmmm. I wonder about these things. I just don't buy these things.

[allstarsplus]

I think of Pro-cut jerseys as a Salesman sample or Retail jersey with correct tagging. They may have alterations like the ones UDA sold of Michael Jordan. They are tagged like gamers but never would be used for a game.

A game issued should be in the locker room and just not used. They need to have all the proper tagging.

I think the bigger issue is calling a jersey game used when the player never played in the game. We see this with pitcher's jerseys and throwbacks. The throwbacks are worn for 1 game and you check the boxscore to see the player never got into the game. I know the auctions on MLB.com calls them game used both ways. The discussion comes up on Pedro's real pitching jerseys vs. the jerseys he wears in the dugouts on days he doesn't pitch.

[trsent]

I think the bigger issue is calling a jersey game used when the player never played in the game. We see this with pitcher's jerseys and throwbacks. The throwbacks are worn for 1 game and you check the boxscore to see the player never got into the game. I know the auctions on MLB.com calls them game used both ways. The discussion comes up on Pedro's real pitching jerseys vs. the jerseys he wears in the dugouts on days he doesn't pitch.

Good topic for us to discuss.

A player who is on the active roster who doesn't play in a game but is in the dugout ready to play (or maybe even injured but in uniform) has always been considered to be a "Game Used" jersey.

How about this, when a coach's or manager's jersey is sold it is listed as "Game Used" when a hitting coach may never leave the dugout?

[Eric]

Here's what the definition should be, and there is no room for intepretation

A game issued jersey is a jersey that was made for a specific player with the intention of having it used in a game

There it is- It's very simple.

A team-issued blank jersey which has had numbers and a nameplate added to resemble what would have been a game issued jersey is not a game issued jersey. It is a modified team issued blank jersey made to look like something it isn't likely so someone can profit.

How many times have we seen people pay thousands of dollars on '94 Favre throwbacks, which were described as game issued or even had an LOA saying it was game worn with no wear on it.

A retail jersey is not a game issued jersey any way you cut it.

A jersey which is of a style that the player would never have worn (lineman sleeves on a Favre, or short sleeves on a Manning) in my definition is not a game issued jersey

Sellers take liberty with these definitions and people end up spending their money on pieces that aren't what they think they are.

I'm sorry folks if it brings your final prices down on these items, but it's better to be honest and not flood the market with non game issued items.

Buyers need to do their homework, and so do sellers.
Eric

[trsent]

Eric, you are the next Webster. :)

[allstarsplus]

Here's what the definition should be, and there is no room for intepretation

A game issued jersey is a jersey that was made for a specific player with the intention of having it used in a game

There it is- It's very simple.

We should all agree with that one.

How's about my previous post on the player that never gets in the game. MLB.com holograms them as game used.

[trsent]

We should all agree with that one.

How's about my previous post on the player that never gets in the game. MLB.com holograms them as game used.

MLB will continue to hologram them as "Game Used".

A player doesn't have to play in the game the day they wore a jersey to have it classified as "Game Used." If Pedro Martinez wears a jersey in the dugout or bullpen one day and gives the jersey to his friend, it is technically a "Game Used" jersey.

You don't have to like it, but that is just how it is in this industry.

[allstarsplus]

Joel - You just defined game used then! We have game issued, game used, and a team-issued defined then.

Andrew

[trsent]

Joel - You just defined game used then! We have game issued, game used, and a team-issued defined then.

Andrew

Really?

So now Eric and I can be in the same class as Websters?

[BarryMeisel]

Eric,
I agree with your definition of game-issued. I think there are two key points:

1) The jersey has to be prepared for a player to play in a game.

2) The jersey has to be prepared by the team and issued by the team FOR THE PLAYER. I think the word issued has to be seen in context of distribution to players, not the hobby. Issuing a jersey to the hobby (like the Kevin Greene example of a team putting out 10 jerseys each week for promotional purposes, which all teams do) does not make something game-issued.


Regards,
Barry

[trsent]

I believe the problem with the "game issued" argument is people want to believe that all game issued jerseys were sitting in the locker room ready to be used but weren't.

Needless to say, this would be great in a perfect world, but it is not realistic. eBay sellers will label items as "game issued" if they are the same tagging as one worn in a game.

This means that a 1992-1993 Michael Jordan "pro cut" jersey will continued to be sold as "game issued" because the tagging is the same as the jersey that Michael wore in a game in 1992-1993.

I believe the problem is that the "game issued" jerseys we are discussing are the same as the old salesmen samples that used to surface but the terminology has changed how they are sold which I cannot see changing anytime soon.

Since eBay dictates such a high percentage of the market, sellers will not stop using the term "game issued" for jerseys tagged identically as "game used" so maybe the term needs to be defined more broadly?

[hblakewolf]

Let's discuss the never ending supply of "Barry Bonds Game Issued" jerseys that appear in EVERY major auction, however, are void of the Bonds 25 tagging and/or his LOA. These jerseys are available on a regular basis on Ebay, and are listed as game issued/team issued. What's interesting is that the various authenticators are writing LOA's stating they are gamers, even though they are void of the tag/LOA.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[BarryMeisel]

Joel,

When buying a MeiGray product, it is realistic.

Since we security tag jerseys from the teams and leagues we work with, a game-issued jersey will have a MeiGray security tag ... and that is how it differs from a jersey bought over the counter, or a salesman's sample.

People can believe what they want to believe, but when they purchase a game-issued jersey from MeiGray, they are certain to get a jersey that was prepared by the team for the player, and was in the team's inventory of game jerseys.

Regards,

Barry

[trsent]

Barry, that is great for customers who buy from MeiGrey and Steiner (maybe I am missing someone in this group) but what about all the jerseys for sale on eBay as "game issued" or "team issued".

This is why the term needs to be redefined.

Hats off to your company for the progress it has made, but since only a limited number of teams are working with resellers, it makes the market very tough to dissect right now.

[hblakewolf]

Barry-
Can you briefly discuss your thoughts on the 2003 Arod Rangers jerseys that are sold in the various auctions as "game used", however, are void of your tagging and paperwork? A previous post indicated that Arod may have ordered extra jerseys himself. My understanding is that EVERY Rangers jersey had to go through MeiGray's tagging system, and as such, every Arod gamer would have to have your tagging. Am I correct?

As always, thanks.
Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net



Joel,

When buying a MeiGray product, it is realistic.

Since we security tag jerseys from the teams and leagues we work with, a game-issued jersey will have a MeiGray security tag ... and that is how it differs from a jersey bought over the counter, or a salesman's sample.

People can believe what they want to believe, but when they purchase a game-issued jersey from MeiGray, they are certain to get a jersey that was prepared by the team for the player, and was in the team's inventory of game jerseys.

Regards,

Barry

[BarryMeisel]

Hi Howard,
Yes, they were supposed to. If Arod ordered jerseys himself, carried them into the clubhouse, wore them, and carried them out, it would be circumventing the Rangers' system.

But is there any way of proving he did that? And that he wore those jerseys? Given the degree of wear on the correct Arods, and the fact that we easily photo-matched a few, it would be interesting to see if the ones supposedly sold as game-used would in fact show up in photos.

Regards,

Barry

[BarryMeisel]

Joel,
I don't think the term needs to be redefined.

I think collectors need to be more discriminating, and more realistic.

Game-used and game-issued items are very limited in supply. Common sense should tell a collector that the frequency with which high-profile names appear in virtually every auction, or on ebay every week, is a strong suggestion that much of these items are not as advertised.

Regards,

Barry

[trsent]

Barry, here is an example of a jersey that recently sold on eBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=60597&item=8831408768

Now, you and I know this jersey most likely never hit the locker room, but the title still reads:

MINNESOTA TWINS GAME ISSUED USED JERSEY JOHAN SANTANA
AUTHENTIC FIELD GAME JERSEY, SIZE 48

The description reads:

TWINS GAME ISSUED JERSEY. JERSEY IS 100% AUTHENTIC AND IS A GAME, FIELD ISSUED JERSEY. THIS JERSEY IS THE SAME JERSEY THAT IS WORN ON THE FIELD. THE JERSEY IS BLANK IN THE BACK. THIS JERSEY IS BRAND NEW. PAYPAL REQUIRED FOR THIS AUCTION PAYMENT DUE WITHIN 4 DAYS OF AUCTION END.

So, this is a jersey sold as "game issued" but it never hit a locker room, and any smart buyer knows this before placing a bid. Needless to say, in today's market "game issued" does not mean it has hung in a locker room, with the high number of people using it for "game ready" jerseys or "game tagged" jerseys.

[Spiezio23]

What about the difference between "Game Used" and "Game Worn", lets use the example of the Pedro jerseys, he has 2 different styles he wears, one for pitching days and one for bench days. The Pitching day one would actually be used in the game while his bench jerseys would be worn during the game but not used in actual gameplay.

As far as the example of the Johan jersey below, it's really just a keyword spamming auction and the jersey may never have made it to the locker room but it could have been in their storage room to be used. So I agree it's not a game issued as it was never customized for a player. That's what people do to try and get more $, and people buy into it.

[BarryMeisel]

Joel,
I get between 2-4 junk e-mails every day from foreign businessman telling me they are ready to give me $5 million if I cash some check or do something for them. Does that mean this is real? Do you think I do anything except hit the delete button?

If anyone spent more than 5 seconds taking that e-bay offer of the Santana seriously, then that person should not be collecting game-worn jerseys without a lot of help from somebody more knowledgeable.

It is time this hobby stopped listening to fairy tales and started using more common sense.

Regards,
Barry

[bigtime59]

...If anyone spent more than 5 seconds taking that e-bay offer of the Santana seriously, then that person should not be collecting game-worn jerseys without a lot of help from somebody more knowledgeable...


Barry:
There were two types of people interested in that jersey: those who were looking for a Twins jersey, either to wear as is, or to personalize for themselves, and didn't feel like dropping whatever absurd amount the local sports store is charging for "authentic" jersys...and those who were looking to buy it, bobo it up, and put it out in the eBay market as "game used."
The seller on this piece has moved TONS of blank, intended for the team Russell jerseys over the last couple of years. The early bird catches the Russell dump sale, I suppose...

Mark Sutton
bigtime39@aol.com

[hblakewolf]

Barry-
Check your private email on this Forum for a message from me.
Howard Wolf


Joel,
I get between 2-4 junk e-mails every day from foreign businessman telling me they are ready to give me $5 million if I cash some check or do something for them. Does that mean this is real? Do you think I do anything except hit the delete button?

If anyone spent more than 5 seconds taking that e-bay offer of the Santana seriously, then that person should not be collecting game-worn jerseys without a lot of help from somebody more knowledgeable.

It is time this hobby stopped listening to fairy tales and started using more common sense.

Regards,
Barry

[ashleymurphy08]

I am buying a Hockey jersey online, and there are two types of jerseys, reebok edge and reebok premier. I dont know what the diffrence is , all i know is the edge is more expensive lol, here is what the website says:

This Reebok® EDGE hockey jersey replicates the player worn Pro-cut jersey in fabric, trim and team design. It's made of double knit polyester and has four-way stretch mesh, which provides a balance of ventilation and range of motion in the underarm and back areas. The jersey is designed with a combination of direct embroidery and appliqué twill graphics.

Reebok® Premier jersey is the perfect way to support your favorite team! It's made of polyester two-way stretch pique fabric and has solid mesh inserts for ventilation. The front crest is embroidered just like the authentic jersey, and your personalized name and number in single-layer, screen-printed twill are heat pressed onto the back and sleeves.


So what one is more like the actually jersey the players use? Which one is more authentic ?

[gingi79]

I am buying a Hockey jersey online, and there are two types of jerseys, reebok edge and reebok premier. I dont know what the diffrence is , all i know is the edge is more expensive lol, here is what the website says:

This Reebok® EDGE hockey jersey replicates the player worn Pro-cut jersey in fabric, trim and team design. It's made of double knit polyester and has four-way stretch mesh, which provides a balance of ventilation and range of motion in the underarm and back areas. The jersey is designed with a combination of direct embroidery and appliqué twill graphics.

Reebok® Premier jersey is the perfect way to support your favorite team! It's made of polyester two-way stretch pique fabric and has solid mesh inserts for ventilation. The front crest is embroidered just like the authentic jersey, and your personalized name and number in single-layer, screen-printed twill are heat pressed onto the back and sleeves.


So what one is more like the actually jersey the players use? Which one is more authentic ?

Edge is the authentic one. Premier is the new replica.

Couple of things of note in the Premier listing "The front crest is embroidered just like the authentic jersey" which I read to mean, it is a replica. Also, all of my game worn hockey jerseys are sewn name and number. Therefore, "name and number in single-layer, screen-printed twill are heat pressed onto the back and sleeves" is replica all the way.

This is how teams like the Islanders can take an order from a fan for a John Tavares jersey before the puck drops and he can pick it up at first intermission. I sure hope the technology has evolved as heat pressing has peeled on all my old football authentics from the early 90's

If you are looking for a non-name number or low popularity player, I would suggest contact Barry at www.MeiGray.com He runs MeiGray which is the company which markets almost half the NHL's teams game worn jerseys. Of course if he doesn't deal with your team, then nevermind.

Worth a look anyway.

[legaleagle92481]

Move over $20,000 Mark Sanchez: JO is selling a Tim Tebow jersey for $10,000 from the 9-26 game. The only problem is Tebow did not play in the game. So they are essentially selling something that never left the bench for that price. IMO since he did not play its not even a game worn jersey although I know others differ on that point. At least Sanchez played in the game the 20k jersey was from.

[trsent]

Move over $20,000 Mark Sanchez: JO is selling a Tim Tebow jersey for $10,000 from the 9-26 game. The only problem is Tebow did not play in the game. So they are essentially selling something that never left the bench for that price. IMO since he did not play its not even a game worn jersey although I know others differ on that point. At least Sanchez played in the game the 20k jersey was from.

If a player wears the uniform isn't that game used? If they don't get into the game it is tough luck, but game used means a player wore the item for the game, dressed to play in the game?

I would understand concern if he wore the jersey on the sideline, unable to play but still wore his jersey, but he was available to play, right?

Please verify. You make a very bold statement.

[earlywynnfan]

I agree with Eagle (and I think he made his opinion very clear.) To me, if something is to be considered "game used," I think it should have seen actual game action, not riding the pine.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[solarlottry]

So i the back up QB dresses but doesnt play then his shirt is considered game issued? i personally think that if a player is in uniform and on the sideline for the game, ready to play then the shirt is game used. We all like shirts with great use but if we start saying that the player has to be in the game for at least one play for a shirt to be "game used" then where does it end?

Lets say a player is on the field, in the huddle, for a play but timeout is called and when the next play occurs he is off the field and he never sees the field again for that game-is it game used? He was on the field but didnt "play". I think if a player is in uniform and listed as active then the shirt is game used.

[trsent]

So i the back up QB dresses but doesnt play then his shirt is considered game issued? i personally think that if a player is in uniform and on the sideline for the game, ready to play then the shirt is game used. We all like shirts with great use but if we start saying that the player has to be in the game for at least one play for a shirt to be "game used" then where does it end?

Lets say a player is on the field, in the huddle, for a play but timeout is called and when the next play occurs he is off the field and he never sees the field again for that game-is it game used? He was on the field but didnt "play". I think if a player is in uniform and listed as active then the shirt is game used.

What people forget is that in baseball, a pitcher can wear a jersey, never get into a game and the jersey is game used. For that matter, a manager wears a jersey and everyone sells the manager's jersey as game used, right?

[slambam]

Move over $20,000 Mark Sanchez: JO is selling a Tim Tebow jersey for $10,000 from the 9-26 game. The only problem is Tebow did not play in the game. So they are essentially selling something that never left the bench for that price. IMO since he did not play its not even a game worn jersey although I know others differ on that point. At least Sanchez played in the game the 20k jersey was from.

Actually Tebow did play in this game. 2 plays, 1 runs for 2 yards. Not a lot, but he did play.

[slambam]

Ok, excuse me I'm wrong. I just read a previous post about the Tebow jersey from the Jags game which somebody said he didn't play in (which is the game he was in for the two plays) and didn't read this post correctly.

[josportsco]

Everyone whom is debating if a player wears a jersey on the sideline and does not see actual game action that that jersey is game use is 100% correct in the eyes of NFL Team uniform guidelines. This counts for any part of the season pre and post. A collector may want to pay a premium for one worn in the actual game and then another premium for one worn in the actual game and sold unwashed. We are spoiled today with the access to "unwashed" game worn memorabilia you can find in the last 10 years. Unwashed was never accessable prior, not saying it didnt exist, it just was not readily available like it is today.