This MEARS LOA really bothers me...

[emann]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Chipper-Jones-Game-Used-Batting-Gloves-Mears-LOA-Braves-/170481077505?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27b176cd01#ht_2217wt_1167

A pair of batting gloves attributed by MEARS to Chipper Jones: they're generic Franklin gloves, they're not customized, no provenance, without even his number written on them, etc.

NOTHING designates these as used by Chipper Jones except the LOA which deems them "authentic"...

[whatupyos]

Thank you for posting. I was going to do this last night but was too tired. How could Troy write an LOA when there is no photographic evidence that I could find of Chipper ever using Franklin batting gloves. All I can find is Mizuno. I'm shocked how these could be attributed to Chipper. I'd love to know more.

Aaron

[mears]

Guys,

Thanks for writing about these gloves. While doing our research, we noted that Chipper Jones wore many different styles of batting gloves. We have examples in our database of Mizuno, Wilson, TPX, etc.

We did note that there was no photo match for these gloves and that fact was included in our LOO.

My reason for issuing the letter was due to the fact the gloves were sourced directly from a Major League batboy that worked for the White Sox during the era of interleague play.

The batting gloves were purchased by our company. Some had numbers embroidered, some have numbered written in black marker, some were blank, with no number written on it.

Now, this might be a problem for some with identifier. I have personally seen Mark McGwire give batting gloves away that had no uniform number added. Just plain white Franklin gloves.

With regards to the collection of gloves that we purchased, all of them were in plastic bags with athletic tape indicating who the player was. The bat boy would put them away at night and mark who they were.

The collection consisted of embroidered, numbered, and plain non-marked gloves of stars, superstars, and common players. Based on the source of the gloves and the collection in it entirety, I issued the letter.

With that being said, and no exact photo match and questions being raised, I have purchased the gloves off ebay and will add them to our collection of Policy Samples.

Regards,


Troy Kinunen/MEARS

[whatupyos]

Troy,

I appreciate your response and how you handled this. I have a problem in general with these "batboy" sourses. Not picking on you in particular but just in general, I see these "batboy" or "came from an MLB sourse" things all the time on ebay or from other GUU members. But that really means bullox to me. Thats why we all need to do homework. Example...I could be a batboy and come up with fake gloves and other items and most people will believe me because I say I work for a team. There are tons of crooks and phonies out there that will take advantage at any turn they can.

I know you said you have images of Chipper wearing different gloves but I've just never seen it. I checked throught the 90's. There are lots of scammers out there and they will stop at nothing to doop whoever they can. I hope no one ever gets bad items but the reality is there are lots of crap floating around and always will be. I hope MEARS never becomes the victim of crap in the future. I understand who respected they are and what effort goes into the business. Thanks again for responding to this.

Aaron

[emann]

Troy-

Thanks for responding to the thread. Comments below...




My reason for issuing the letter was due to the fact the gloves were sourced directly from a Major League batboy that worked for the White Sox during the era of interleague play.

The batting gloves were purchased by our company. Some had numbers embroidered, some have numbered written in black marker, some were blank, with no number written on it.

Now, this might be a problem for some with identifier. I have personally seen Mark McGwire give batting gloves away that had no uniform number added. Just plain white Franklin gloves.

With regards to the collection of gloves that we purchased, all of them were in plastic bags with athletic tape indicating who the player was. The bat boy would put them away at night and mark who they were.

The collection consisted of embroidered, numbered, and plain non-marked gloves of stars, superstars, and common players. Based on the source of the gloves and the collection in it entirety, I issued the letter.

I'm surprised you didn't decide to add this information to each LOA from that lot. Since that provenance would certainly add credibility and value to any items from a batch purchase such as this. The story of a batboy labeling and collection gloves in individual bags builds more collector confidence than a random set of gloves anybody could purchase and wear (personally, I would have liked to see them still in the original bag).

Without that story, it would be the equivalent of selling a generic pro stock LVS bats with #25 written on the bottom and saying it was used by Mark McGwire. It might have been, but most collectors would stay far, far away...

That said, I think buying the gloves back was an honorable thing for MEARS to do.

[legaleagle92481]

props to mears for their action in this matter if only other authentication companies did the same.

[scootmagroot]

I dont get why people put so much belief in LOAs, COA, LOO, LXX, CXX...whatever OPINION is put out there. The ONLY COAs that are legit in my mind are MLB, and the individual players COA such as the GTSM LaDainain Tomlinson COAs.

[Lokee]

http://caimages.collectors.com/psaimages/1872/31420620/1991%20Classic%20Best%20Chipper%20Jones.jpg

Those look like Franklins to me just not blue.

[Lokee]

I mean all you have to do is a little research before calling people out.

It's like if you can take the time to post a message on here take the time to look at photos and do the research.

[jobathenut]

Totally agree with you.
I mean all you have to do is a little research before calling people out.

It's like if you can take the time to post a message on here take the time to look at photos and do the research.

[emann]

I mean all you have to do is a little research before calling people out.

It's like if you can take the time to post a message on here take the time to look at photos and do the research.

Read my post again slowly and you'll understand why I posted (and Troy's reply will make sense).

It has nothing to do with a photo of Chipper wearing Franklin gloves...

[joelsabi]

Read my post again slowly and you'll understand why I posted (and Troy's reply will make sense).

It has nothing to do with a photo of Chipper wearing Franklin gloves...

Emann,

Excellent post by you. I think it is a valid concern and benefited both Mears and the collector by bringing up the issue. I too believe Mears would have been better served if they added this provenance information to the LOO. The LOO as is was very vague and would have low buyer confidence from serious collectors.

I am glad Troy addressed this concern.

[mattmueller]

I dont get why people put so much belief in LOAs, COA, LOO, LXX, CXX...whatever OPINION is put out there. The ONLY COAs that are legit in my mind are MLB, and the individual players COA such as the GTSM LaDainain Tomlinson COAs.

To me, a huge difference with MEARS versus others is MEARS' money back guarantee. As I understand it, if you buy something MEARS provided their opinion on, and they are determined to be wrong in their evaluation, MEARS will buy the item back from you for what you paid for it.

Matt

[whatupyos]

I mean all you have to do is a little research before calling people out.

It's like if you can take the time to post a message on here take the time to look at photos and do the research.


I actually did do some research. I looked on Getty Images and saw nothing from the mid 90's onward to show Franklin gloves. I didn't turn into Magnum PI over it but I do have a life unlike some people who have all the time it seems to do extensive research.

[Lokee]

I actually did do some research. I looked on Getty Images and saw nothing from the mid 90's onward to show Franklin gloves. I didn't turn into Magnum PI over it but I do have a life unlike some people who have all the time it seems to do extensive research.

:eek: REAL extensive took me 5 mins.

[joelsabi]

Based on the source being a White Sox ballboy, I looked up the dates that the Braves played the White Sox. Narrowed to 6 games.

June 21-23, 2002 and June 11-13, 2004

Found one photo of Chipper on June 13,2004 in Gettys. Chipper wore customized Mizunos on that day and pretty much the same type of glove in 2002 and 2004. By this stage in his career Chipper was using customized gloves.

If anything they were used in BP. I doubt they were used in any of the 6 career games Chipper played against the White Sox but that just my opinion. Other possibility is a game during ST which would be tough to research.

Research time: 10 minutes. Using retrosheet.org and gettyimages.

[Lokee]

Research time: 10 minutes. Using retrosheet.org and gettyimages.


LMAO

[joelsabi]

LMAO

my focus was on actual major league games. :)

i would have taken your research route as prerookie or rookie era gloves but im not motivated to search further. ;)

[Lokee]

my focus was on actual major league games. :)

i would have taken your research route as prerookie or rookie era gloves but im not motivated to search further. ;)

Research is fun when it's your item that is for sure.

[joelsabi]

Based on the source being a White Sox ballboy, I looked up the dates that the Braves played the White Sox. Narrowed to 6 games.

June 21-23, 2002 and June 11-13, 2004

Found one photo of Chipper on June 13,2004 in Gettys. Chipper wore customized Mizunos on that day and pretty much the same type of glove in 2002 and 2004. By this stage in his career Chipper was using customized gloves.

If anything they were used in BP. I doubt they were used in any of the 6 career games Chipper played against the White Sox but that just my opinion. Other possibility is a game during ST which would be tough to research.

Research time: 10 minutes. Using retrosheet.org and gettyimages.

I just checked on whether the Sox and Brave would play ST games and they play in different leagues -- Braves (Citrus in Florida) and White Sox (Cactus in Arizona). So I doubt the White Sox ballboy was saving Chipper's glove in Spring Training.

[trsent]

I just checked on whether the Sox and Brave would play ST games and they play in different leagues -- Braves (Citrus in Florida) and White Sox (Cactus in Arizona). So I doubt the White Sox ballboy was saving Chipper's glove in Spring Training.

Well, I don't know the complete time frame of when these gloves are attributed, but the White Sox used to play in Sarasota, Florida:

"The Chicago White Sox have held spring training in Excelsior Springs, Mo. (1901-1902); Mobile (1903); Marlin Springs, Texas (1904); New Orleans (1905-1906); Mexico City (1907); Los Angeles (1908); San Francisco (1909-1910); Mineral Wells, Texas (1911, 1916-1919); Waco, Texas (1912, 1920); Paso Robles, Cal. (1913-1915); Waxahachie, Texas (1921); Seguin, Texas (1922-1923); Winter Haven, Fla. (1924); Shreveport, La. (1925-1928); Dallas (1929); San Antonio (1930-1932); Pasadena, Cal. (1933-1942, 1946-1950); French Lick, Ind. (1943-1944); Terre Haute, Ind. (1945); Palm Springs, Cal. (1951); El Centro, Cal. (1952-1953); Tampa (1954-1959); Sarasota (1960-1997); Tucson (1998-2008); Glendale, Az. (2009-present). "

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/teams/chicago-white-sox.htm

Chipper Jones has been with The Braves since 1993 from: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesch06.shtml

The Braves have had Spring Training in Florida for long enough:

"The Atlanta Braves have trained at the following sites since the team's entry in the National League as the Boston Beaneaters: Norfolk, Va. (1901); Thomasville, Ga. (1902-1904, 1907); Charleston, S.C. (1905); Jacksonville (1906); Augusta, Ga. (1908-1912); Athens, Ga. (1913); Macon, Ga. (1914-1915); Miami (1916-1918), Columbus, Ga. (1919-1920); Galveston, Texas (1921); St. Petersburg (1922-1937); Bradenton (1938-1940, 1948-1962); San Antonio (1941); Sanford, Fla. (1942); Wallingford, Ct. (1943-1944); Washington, D.C. (1945); Fort Lauderdale (1946-1947); West Palm Beach (1963-1997); Orlando (1998-present)."

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/teams/atlanta-braves.htm

So you could have the years 1993-1997 that The White Sox played The Braves in Florida.

That research took me about a minute to find, and about five minutes to copy over and post.

At the end of the day, the letter is vague but MEARS believes in their source, and unlike a random eBay seller, when Troy Kinunen states that he bought a collection from a ball boy (or an amazing autograph collection he had from a clubhouse attendant) generally he is dealing with the source he claims as he doesn't deal with make believe characters. This comment is based my past experiences dealing with him for over fifteen years now.

[legaleagle92481]

Well, I don't know the complete time frame of when these gloves are attributed, but the White Sox used to play in Sarasota, Florida:

"The Chicago White Sox have held spring training in Excelsior Springs, Mo. (1901-1902); Mobile (1903); Marlin Springs, Texas (1904); New Orleans (1905-1906); Mexico City (1907); Los Angeles (1908); San Francisco (1909-1910); Mineral Wells, Texas (1911, 1916-1919); Waco, Texas (1912, 1920); Paso Robles, Cal. (1913-1915); Waxahachie, Texas (1921); Seguin, Texas (1922-1923); Winter Haven, Fla. (1924); Shreveport, La. (1925-1928); Dallas (1929); San Antonio (1930-1932); Pasadena, Cal. (1933-1942, 1946-1950); French Lick, Ind. (1943-1944); Terre Haute, Ind. (1945); Palm Springs, Cal. (1951); El Centro, Cal. (1952-1953); Tampa (1954-1959); Sarasota (1960-1997); Tucson (1998-2008); Glendale, Az. (2009-present). "

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/teams/chicago-white-sox.htm

Chipper Jones has been with The Braves since 1993 from: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesch06.shtml

The Braves have had Spring Training in Florida for long enough:

"The Atlanta Braves have trained at the following sites since the team's entry in the National League as the Boston Beaneaters: Norfolk, Va. (1901); Thomasville, Ga. (1902-1904, 1907); Charleston, S.C. (1905); Jacksonville (1906); Augusta, Ga. (1908-1912); Athens, Ga. (1913); Macon, Ga. (1914-1915); Miami (1916-1918), Columbus, Ga. (1919-1920); Galveston, Texas (1921); St. Petersburg (1922-1937); Bradenton (1938-1940, 1948-1962); San Antonio (1941); Sanford, Fla. (1942); Wallingford, Ct. (1943-1944); Washington, D.C. (1945); Fort Lauderdale (1946-1947); West Palm Beach (1963-1997); Orlando (1998-present)."

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/teams/atlanta-braves.htm

So you could have the years 1993-1997 that The White Sox played The Braves in Florida.

That research took me about a minute to find, and about five minutes to copy over and post.

At the end of the day, the letter is vague but MEARS believes in their source, and unlike a random eBay seller, when Troy Kinunen states that he bought a collection from a ball boy (or an amazing autograph collection he had from a clubhouse attendant) generally he is dealing with the source he claims as he doesn't deal with make believe characters. This comment is based my past experiences dealing with him for over fifteen years now.

I don't think Joel or anyone is accussing Troy of lying i think they are accussing the bat boy of lying.

[joelsabi]

Well, I don't know the complete time frame of when these gloves are attributed, but the White Sox used to play in Sarasota, Florida:

"The Chicago White Sox have held spring training in Excelsior Springs, Mo. (1901-1902); Mobile (1903); Marlin Springs, Texas (1904); New Orleans (1905-1906); Mexico City (1907); Los Angeles (1908); San Francisco (1909-1910); Mineral Wells, Texas (1911, 1916-1919); Waco, Texas (1912, 1920); Paso Robles, Cal. (1913-1915); Waxahachie, Texas (1921); Seguin, Texas (1922-1923); Winter Haven, Fla. (1924); Shreveport, La. (1925-1928); Dallas (1929); San Antonio (1930-1932); Pasadena, Cal. (1933-1942, 1946-1950); French Lick, Ind. (1943-1944); Terre Haute, Ind. (1945); Palm Springs, Cal. (1951); El Centro, Cal. (1952-1953); Tampa (1954-1959); Sarasota (1960-1997); Tucson (1998-2008); Glendale, Az. (2009-present). "

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/teams/chicago-white-sox.htm

Chipper Jones has been with The Braves since 1993 from: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesch06.shtml

The Braves have had Spring Training in Florida for long enough:

"The Atlanta Braves have trained at the following sites since the team's entry in the National League as the Boston Beaneaters: Norfolk, Va. (1901); Thomasville, Ga. (1902-1904, 1907); Charleston, S.C. (1905); Jacksonville (1906); Augusta, Ga. (1908-1912); Athens, Ga. (1913); Macon, Ga. (1914-1915); Miami (1916-1918), Columbus, Ga. (1919-1920); Galveston, Texas (1921); St. Petersburg (1922-1937); Bradenton (1938-1940, 1948-1962); San Antonio (1941); Sanford, Fla. (1942); Wallingford, Ct. (1943-1944); Washington, D.C. (1945); Fort Lauderdale (1946-1947); West Palm Beach (1963-1997); Orlando (1998-present)."

From: http://www.springtrainingonline.com/teams/atlanta-braves.htm

So you could have the years 1993-1997 that The White Sox played The Braves in Florida.

That research took me about a minute to find, and about five minutes to copy over and post.

At the end of the day, the letter is vague but MEARS believes in their source, and unlike a random eBay seller, when Troy Kinunen states that he bought a collection from a ball boy (or an amazing autograph collection he had from a clubhouse attendant) generally he is dealing with the source he claims as he doesn't deal with make believe characters. This comment is based my past experiences dealing with him for over fifteen years now.

Joel,

Thanks for the spring training reference link. This actually makes more sense to me that the generic glove comes from this time period of 1993-1997, when custom gloves were less common. Chipper is early in his career and had not yet started to use customized gloves.

I believe in Troy's source and that's why I used this parameter of possible games that the Braves and White Sox played. It panned out these glove probably were never used in an official major league game but were more likely used in a Spring Training game in Florida early in his career.

If anyone has a source that would show West Palm Beach (1963-1997) and Orlando (1998-present) playing or being in the same league let me know.

I stand corrected. I was thinking of All-Star game in Comisky or batting practice without the information you provided, so my search was not complete and thorough but it shows the mindset of what a collector should do for himself to verify the story of provenance.

Would this information be useful of a COO? I think it would bring more buyer confidence to show the timeframe that this glove could have been used and the provenance coming from the White Sox batboy.

[joelsabi]

Well, I don't know the complete time frame of when these gloves are attributed, but the White Sox used to play in Sarasota, Florida:


I don't know either the time frame. If I knew the timeframe the source was a White Sox batboy, my opinion of what the gloves are would change.

If in 2000s then its a BP batting glove from the June 11-13, 2004 series in Chicago. I am assuming batboys responsibility of caring for away players equipment and Chipper saves customized glove for actual games and uses the cheapos in BP.

If in the early 1990s, more likely Spring Training batting gloves, assuming the White Sox batboy goes to Spring Training and is responsible for caring for away players equipment.

[trsent]

I don't think Joel or anyone is accussing Troy of lying i think they are accussing the bat boy of lying.

I don't think anyone thought Troy was lying from any discussion. I don't think anyone said this particular batboy was lying either. From my history buying items over the years, I find generally when a batboy comes in with sealed baggies with names on them, these were from their personal collection and odds of them being inaccurate are very slim if they were a real batboy.

Also, I don't remember the exact era of this, but I do remember that White Sox batboys were often "Bat Gentlemen" as for a long time they were older men at least into the 1980's if not later.


I don't know either the time frame. If I knew the timeframe the source was a White Sox batboy, my opinion of what the gloves are would change.

If in 2000s then its a BP batting glove from the June 11-13, 2004 series in Chicago. I am assuming batboys responsibility of caring for away players equipment and Chipper saves customized glove for actual games and uses the cheapos in BP.

If in the early 1990s, more likely Spring Training batting gloves, assuming the White Sox batboy goes to Spring Training and is responsible for caring for away players equipment.

Joel, I believe all Florida teams play each other in Spring Training as do all Arizona teams. They are not set into leagues or groups. At the end of this discussion, the glove is now back in the possession of MEARS and its owner is confident of where it came from.

I personally don't understand how a batboy from The White Sox would get batting gloves from members of the other team unless they asked for them or traded them with the other team's batboys since I assume The Braves have their own batboys taking care of their own players gloves. I know it happens, but how I have never known.

[karamaxjoe]

Also, I don't remember the exact era of this, but I do remember that White Sox batboys were often "Bat Gentlemen" as for a long time they were older men at least into the 1980's if not later.



Joel,

Welcome back! It appears not many of the oldtimers are still hanging around this forum.

Do you remember the batboy Poppy Hidalgo who had to be in his thirties before the Sox finally got rid of him? I've got some Sox batboy jerseys and they are all size 46 or more.

[emann]

Emann,
Excellent post by you. I think it is a valid concern and benefited both Mears and the collector by bringing up the issue. I too believe Mears would have been better served if they added this provenance information to the LOO. The LOO as is was very vague and would have low buyer confidence from serious collectors.

I am glad Troy addressed this concern.

Thanks Joel. ;)

I was also impressed by Troy's handling of the situation. In no way do I think this was MEARS trying to put one over on anybody. As you basically said, without the story that Troy told to back it up, the LOA is simply too vague and the item too generic for most collectors to feel comfortable with. Just trying to point that out for the benefit of the hobby...

[DonFan23]

I personally don't understand how a batboy from The White Sox would get batting gloves from members of the other team unless they asked for them or traded them with the other team's batboys since I assume The Braves have their own batboys taking care of their own players gloves. I know it happens, but how I have never known.

Quite often the visiting team's batboys are simply home team batboys who suit up in unis provided by the visiting teams so they don't stand out. Also, as Joel points out, I've heard of batboys/clubbies trading with counterparts from other teams, so that's also not an improbable scenario either.

[aeneas01]

To me, a huge difference with MEARS versus others is MEARS' money back guarantee. As I understand it, if you buy something MEARS provided their opinion on, and they are determined to be wrong in their evaluation, MEARS will buy the item back from you for what you paid for it.

i believe all auction houses will refund a buyer's money if a buyer can provide indisputable proof a mistake was made - for example, if a helmet's date stamp was overlooked by the auction house (or their authenticator) but later discovered by the buyer and determined to be a date stamp that reflected a time after the player had retired.

but, to be clear, no auction house (including mears), offers a "no questions asked" money back guarantee - mears, like every other auction house, will require the buyer to supply proof that meets their (the auction house's) complete satisfaction. and, in most cases, good luck with that.

...