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aeneas01
04-30-2010, 03:08 AM
when i saw the bunk (imo) dick butkus helmet recently listed at heritage i was quite surprised and immediately thought a) heritage had managed to independently uncover reasonable evidence that finally supported the helmet's authenticity or b) heritage was simply listing the helmet based on the loa that came with it, a letter that had been written many years earlier.

because the helmet is so riddled with problems (so much so that imo there's simply no way it's a butkus gamer), and because i received so many emails asking about it, i emailed heritage to get the scoop - and to point out the many issues with the helmet. in fact i challenged heritage to find just one game photo or film frame (of the multitude available) of butkus wearing a helmet that matched - heritage responded: "We are comfortable running the helmet based on the information that we have as well as (the authenticator's) assessment." frankly guys, i took this to mean "we can't find a photo and we really don't have to because we're covered by a letter that came with the helmet."

so here's the deal on the helmet, the lid someone got stuck with. first, the lost description has morphed every time the helmet has made it to auction, embellishments added and untrue statements left uncorrected. this is how mastro presented the helmet in 2007 - among other things mastro told the bidding public that this helmet was the very same helmet shown in the 1971 iconic game photo included in the lot description, per mastro: "butkus is depicted here wearing the offered helmet" - the helmet sold for $12k.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zz18.jpg


needless to say, despite mastro's unbelievable claim, the offered helmet is clearly not the one butkus is wearing in the iconic game photo - all one needs to do is compare how the facemask clip screws line up with the helmet's center rivet. the top two photos on the left are of the offered helmet, the top photo on the right (in the red box) is the lot game photo. the bottom three photos are additional game photos of the same helmet:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/00.jpg


here's another look at what i'm talking about - the facemasks clip screws and the helmet's center rivet line up differently when comparing the offered helmet to the game photos:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/01-4.jpg


mastro did not include a side view comparison to a game photo in their lot description, just a front view comparison. if mastro had included a side view comparison it would have been equally problematic and provided further proof that the offered helmet was not the one shown in the game photo they provided. compare the two chinstap snap positions of the offered helmet (left photo) to a 1971 side view game photo of butkus - the chinstrap setup butkus actually wore was mounted much further back. the red "x" shows where the back snap should be on the offered helmet:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/02-3.jpg


given that the offered helmet is date-stamped 1971, it could have only been used during the 1971 or 1972 seasons if it belonged to butkus. 1973, butkus's last year, is out because he switched to a different type of riddell helmet and the bears switched to different helmet logo decals. another thing to keep in mind is that butkus went to the pro bowl after both the 1971 and 1972 seasons which means he would have most likely taken his game helmet with him, the typical procedure, and had it painted nfc white.

looking at the multitude of game photos and film footage available of dick butkus during the 1971 and 1972 seasons, it's apparent that he wore two different helmets during this time period - however neither of these two helmets match the offered helmet. the chinstrap setup doesn't match nor does the facemask mounting position (top/side combination). incredibly, heritage told me that many of the game photos they looked at didn't clearly show the chinstrap setup or side facemask mount and therefore were inconclusive. apparently heritage chose to simply ignore the many, many other game photos that do provide a clear and conclusive view of butkus's chinstrap setup and facemask mount.

so we have a helmet that, when first offered at mastro, was said to match an iconic 1971 game photo of butkus - obviously this photo was intended as an important part of the lot description and proof of the helmet's authenticity. yet the helmet clearly didn't match the photo. yet it continues to be offered by auction houses, as authentic, again and again.

as i mentioned earlier, the helmet lot description has morphed over the years. heritage claims the helmet retains it's original facemask clips, a tidbit that has been added since the helmet first appeared at mastro. i told heritage the facemask clips are not what butkus wore and that they are not original to a butkus gamer. heritage agreed and said they would make the correction: "...agree that the clips are not correct based on reviewing images. We are going to edit the description to note that the clips are not originals..." however heritage never did bother to make the change in the lot description despite their promise. here's a facemask clip comparison, flat vs extruded:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/03-3.jpg

heritage also claimed in their lot description that the facemask was "...low-positioned". mastro took it a step further by stating: "This Sunday apparel also bears a number of interesting style features, the combination of which are unique to Butkus including.... placement of the face mask (as low as possible)." yes, like many other players during the era, butkus did at times during his career sport a facemask that was mounted very low - the thing is, the offered helmet is not fitted with a low-mounted mask, it's fitted with a typically mounted mask. compare to the game photo below of butkus sporting a low-mounted mask.:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/04-2.jpg


so we have an iconic photo included in the lot description (mastro) that doesn't match the helmet, clips that are claimed to be what butkus wore and original which aren't (mastro/heritage) and a mask that's claimed to be mounted low as butkus wore but isn't (mastro/heritage). great. and no one can find a game photo of butkus sporting a helmet during the 1971 or 1972 seasons that matches the offered helmet's chinstrap setup and facemask mount position.

another tidbit found in the heritage lot description that was not mentioned when the helmet was listed at mastro is this: "As typical for Bears' gamers from this era, Butkus' number "51" has been markered on the interior rear Riddell sticker." there is nothing typical about the bears writing a player's number on the helmet manufacturer's interior decal, for several reasons. in fact dick butkus will tell you the same.

so in the end what makes heritage believe this helmet was ever worn by butkus? if you ask me, it appears heritage simply banked on the letter that came with the helmet, a letter that was written many years ago. should such a letter that accompanies a lot give heritage or any other auction immunity, should such a letter release them from any obligations in terms of doing their own fact checking? i wouldn't think so. but sadly, it appears to be the case....

....

tom1315
04-30-2010, 05:58 AM
Robert, simply amazing they would continue to push forward based upon the several points outlined and the hard data/facts articulated in your review. Thank you for your efforts to educate all of us and great to see you posting again!

Best regards, Tom

legaleagle92481
04-30-2010, 08:36 AM
It is simple. They are looking to make their 20% from both buyer and seller and there are alot of Butkus/Bears fans so some guy will pay alot for it. Every auction has at least several bad items and the companies know it but most simply do not care and if they excluded all the questionable/clearly bad stuff it would erode their profits because there would be alot fewer items in the auction. Collector's are to blame also because "wishful thinking" and wanting items to be "real" leads people to bid on this junk and unless that stops the auction companies will never change let them have to pay for advertising for items that do not meet the minimum bid because they are not legit enough times and they will change their ways.

BULBUS
04-30-2010, 09:39 AM
Its just amazing that these people continue to get away with this crap! :(

Comparing the chinstrap comparison photos, the "C" is also positioned different.

Fnazxc0114
04-30-2010, 11:52 AM
aenas thanks for pointing this out. I dont collect helmets, but your help is greatly appreciated on these types of issues.

aeneas01
04-30-2010, 03:57 PM
...the "C" is also positioned different.

decal and striping positioning is usually not a red flag because teams replace these items often throughout the course of a season (due to damage, shifting, etc.) - in other words it can be extremely difficult to match decal positioning when researching a specific helmet. the best chance to match decal positioning is to locate a photo of the player towards the end of the season, or the last game of the season. it's not impossible granted, just not easy to do - nor a deal breaker if you can't imo...


Robert, simply amazing they would continue to push forward based upon the several points outlined and the hard data/facts articulated in your review....

i think auction houses are often faced with lots that compare so favorably to photo/film evidence that it's just impossible to stamp them as not authentic despite esoteric issues put forth by knowledgeable collectors. but that's not the case with the butkus helmet given it doesn't even pass casual scrutiny. and if an auction house isn't willing to scrutinize game used lots claimed to have been worn by the world's most famous and photographed athletes, potential five-figure lots, then one has to wonder what it spends it time doing.

to be clear, i don't subscribe to the notion that sports memorabilia auction houses are built on business models that depend on parading crap in front of unsuspecting bidders. for example grey flannel recently asked me to look at a jerry rice "gamer" that came with team paperwork - however the helmet was simply a "presentation" helmet and gfc didn't run with it. guu turned away lots in their last auction as well and quickly removed listed lots when solid concerns were provided. hunt and others do the same. in short, i believe auction houses do strive to bring quality items to collectors - and do.

but in this case heritage seems to feel they weren't obligated to perform their own due diligence on the butkus helmet because it was accompanied with a letter of authenticity when they received it - as if the letter represented a get out jail free card. and this is bothersome.

...

nickacs
05-01-2010, 11:26 AM
but in this case heritage seems to feel they weren't obligated to perform their own due diligence on the butkus helmet because it was accompanied with a letter of authenticity when they received it - as if the letter represented a get out jail free card. and this is bothersome.


Robert-
Awesome writeup sir! Bravo :) This is exactly why I love posts like this. To inform others so they don't have a/the same mistake as someone else.

About Heritage, yes, they emailed the exact same sentiments as you stated above when I emailed them a month or so ago about the Michael Jordan '96 home "game worn" jersey in their 4/23 auction as well. I even sent the pics/links to Gettys with write-ups on each "mistake" about the jersey disproving it's "game worn authenticity."

I was emailed back the following:

"Thanks for all the info, as before we really appreciate it. We discussed this with our authenticator and he has confirmed that the sizes and tagging are correct, so we have decided to move forward with the jersey in auction. As you know we take issues like this very seriously and no amount of money is worth sullying our reputation by selling unauthentic material. But, in this instance with the information we have received from authenticators and the LOAs that confirm this information we feel that this jersey is 100% authentic and we will keep it in the auction. Thanks again for the information, we always welcome any feedback from customers, especially ones with your expertise and attention to detail."

BS... The two LOA's they have is 1) Grey Flannel and 2) Lou Lampson. Like you said, just because a piece of memorabilia comes with an LOA, that means SQUAT. I will only trust (for Bulls stuff) CharitaBulls only and anything else possibly MEARS and definitely MLB auth and Meigray (who is #1 in my book).
Anyone else, I could give a rats ass about. I will do my homework and photomatch as best I can. I give that 100% better odds than an LOA could ever do besides the ones mentioned above.

It's really a shame that auction houses just accept anything with an LOA and pass it onto it's customers, "robbing" them of their hard earned money to get maybe a couple hundred bucks worth of something they paid thousands for :mad: :(

halzeus
05-01-2010, 02:39 PM
Great info Robert.

As a rookie helmet collector, it's always good to see what the experts look at for authenicating helmets.

trsent
05-01-2010, 02:51 PM
After having issues with Heritage in the past and knowing that the company is run by the owner's son, who thinks they can get away with suspect merchandise from time to time because he grew up in the coin and currency business, where everything is graded and slabbed by authenticators who everyone in the industry trusts.

We have found, in the memorabilia industry, authenticating is an opinion, and when issues are found with an opinion, Chris Ivy has felt it best to side with his authenticators time and time again over reason, facts and photographic proof.

Robert did amazing homework on this helmet, but Chris Ivy once again shows he doesn't look at issues for the facts, but would rather side with whatever authentication the item comes with over facts and reasons from someone who knows more about helmets than almost anyone else in this industry. This is not a coin or a bill - It is a piece of memorabilia that there is abundant proof it has questions of authenticity.

Heritage has a lot of great items, but the management has shown us over time that there is not reason used over letter from their authenticators as they have a mentality that the sports memorabilia business can be run like the coin business which is not true or good for their long term reputation.

slats7
05-02-2010, 10:31 PM
1) Is it possible that he didn't wear the exact same helmet the entire 1971 season?
2) Is it possible that it's an authentic Butkus helmet from a different year?

aeneas01
05-03-2010, 09:40 AM
It's really a shame that auction houses just accept anything with an LOA and pass it onto it's customers....

exactly nickacs, and that's my point - it seems that heritage was perfectly happy passing this helmet along because it arrived with an loa, an apparent get out of jail free card.

this strikes me as obvious because this helmet is extremely easy to research - in fact it's about as easy as it comes. butkus could have only worn the thing during the 1971 or 1972 seasons. tons of photos and film footage out there of him during this period and none match the helmet (and i don't mean photomatch). heritage took a look and came up empty as well. yet they let it slide.

...

slats7
05-03-2010, 01:04 PM
here's another look at what i'm talking about - the facemasks clip screws and the helmet's center rivet line up differently when comparing the offered helmet to the game photos:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/01-4.jpg

Here's a Butkus pic from an old Ebay auction. Not sure what season it's from. Anyway, it resembles the one in the auction in terms of the center rivet. I doubt it's the Heritage helmet due to scratch marks and other issues, but we now know for sure that he at one time wore a helmet with a "low" center rivet.

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/440/5368a36536ba4946b37da63.jpg

slats7
05-03-2010, 01:09 PM
Update: The Butkus photo I posted was taken on October 29, 1972.

TriplexXxSports
05-03-2010, 01:46 PM
Update: The Butkus photo I posted was taken on October 29, 1972.

That is quite interesting. I noticed that Robert highlighted the rivet location between the face mask and lower chinstrap button.

In your photo, that rivet and the lower chin strap button are located right where it is on the offered helmet.

Very interesting indeed!

slats7
05-03-2010, 06:31 PM
That is quite interesting. I noticed that Robert highlighted the rivet location between the face mask and lower chinstrap button.

In your photo, that rivet and the lower chin strap button are located right where it is on the offered helmet.

Very interesting indeed!

Here's a few examples from 1970 (allegedly), although the seller could be wrong about the date. Again, low center rivet.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/7413/8ce1b96f87c44216ae18e3f.jpg

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3633/9b0539b0202f4a15bf013ff.jpg

aeneas01
05-03-2010, 10:47 PM
Here's a Butkus pic... Anyway, it resembles the one in the auction in terms of the center rivet.

sure, the helmet butkus is wearing in the photo you provided "resembles" the auction helmet - as would any molded navy tk model helmet worn by a chicago bear during that era. in fact any early '70s molded navy tk model helmet found on ebay would "resemble" the auction helmet as well. but i don't think that's what the bidder that won the helmet was looking for, i don't think he was hoping for a helmet that simply "resembled" what butkus wore. as far as the guy that purchased this thing from mastro for $12k is concerned, i'm pretty sure he expected it to be the exact helmet shown in the iconic game photo mastro provided in the lot description because, well, that's what mastro claimed.


...but we now know for sure that he at one time wore a helmet with a "low" center rivet.

ok, not sure what to make of this statement - you seem to imply that circa 1971 and 1972 photos of a "low center rivet" butkus helmet have eluded everyone until now which, no offense, is absurd. they're everywhere - anyone taking even a casual look into this helmet has already found them, including heritage.

as i mentioned in my original post, it's apparent butkus wore two helmets during the 1971 and 1972 seasons (he also wore a very similar helmet 1970 as well) - what's equally apparent is there are a ton of photos and film clips of butkus wearing both of these helmets, including the "low center rivet" helmet you mentioned. and neither match the auction helmet. heritage has plenty of photos of the "low center rivet" helmet - i know, because i sent them to them.

fwiw the photos i chose to use in my earlier comparison to start this thread were of the other helmet, the same helmet butkus was sporting in the iconic photo that mastro included in their lot description. why did i choose to use photos of this particular butkus helmet and not the "low center rivet" helmet? simple - to show that mastro had grossly misrepresented the auction helmet by claiming it was the same one that appeared in the photo they provided.

so here's the challenge, the same challenge i presented heritage, the same challenge i mentioned earlier: of all of the circa 1971 and 1972 season photos and film clips available of butkus, find just one that matches the auction helmet in terms of the helmet's chinstrap setup and facemask mount position (top/sides). just one.

we can start with one of the correct circa photos you posted, a "low center rivet" photo, below right. i've included a shot of the same helmet, a side view, below left (note the matching impact marks). does this match the auction helmet? nope. where's the rear chinstap snap? how about that facemask mount position?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z01-1.jpg

here are additional photos of the same correct circa "low center rivet" helmet pictured above, as i mentioned lots of these photos are available - do any of these match the auction the helmet? nope.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z04-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z03-1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z02-1.jpg

now let's compare the helmet shown in the above photos with the auction helmet - is it a match?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z05-1.jpg

1. butkus's "low center rivet" game helmet wasn't fitted with a rear chinstrap snap as is the auction helmet. and the other helmet he wore during this period was fitted with a rear chinstrap that was mounted in an entirely different location.

2. compare the side facemask mounting positions - note how close the helmet clip is to the earhole in the game photo.

3. compare the rivet/mask position - note how close the mask is to the rivet in the game photo.

4. compare the distance of the mask from the helmet - in the game photo you see the plastic helmet shell through the green triangle because the mask is mounted close to butkus's face. this is not the case with the auction helmet.

let's take a look at the following photo comparison again, a shot of one of the photos you provided (right) and a side shot of the same helmet i included for comparison purposes (left). heritage simply points to frontal photos such as the one on the right and says "the rear snap and facemask mount position are inconclusive, therefore we're comfortable with running the helmet." of course there are plenty of side shots that are indeed conclusive, such as the one on the left - heritage simply chose to ignore them for obvious reasons.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/z01-1.jpg


so, again, here's the challenge, the same challenge i presented to heritage: of all of the circa 1971 and 1972 season photos and film clips available of butkus, find just one that matches the auction helmet in terms of the helmet's chinstrap setup and facemask mount position (top/sides). just one. heck, thrown in 1970 photos as well if you think they will help.

and while you're doing this keep in mind that the buyer probably isn't interested in a game photo that "resembles" what butkus wore - the buyer is most likely interested in seeing a game photo that offers sound evidence that the auction helmet is indeed a butkus gamer. something heritage and mastro clearly did not have.

...

aeneas01
05-04-2010, 12:26 AM
Here's a few examples from 1970 (allegedly), although the seller could be wrong about the date. Again, low center rivet.

even if the two photos you posted were not from the 1970 season (which they are), yet from the seasons in question, what do you consider their significance to be in this matter? i mean they clearly don't match the auction helmet.

here's a closeup up of the two 1970 photos you posted (you can tell they're the same helmet based on the impact marks circled in yellow) - note that in the left photo you can see the rear chinstrap snap which has been mounted to the far back of butkus's helmet, unlike the auction helmet. as i mentioned earlier, heritage would choose to look at the front view photo on the right and call the chinstrap snap position inconclusive even though conclusive evidence exists that proves otherwise:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/x01.jpg

fwiw, here's another 1970 shot of butkus that shows the chinstrap snap setup as above, which is different than the auction helmet - so, again, what's the point of the photos you posted in terms of supporting the possible authenticity of the auction helmet?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/x03.jpg

and here's the other photo you posted which, fwiw, is from the correct period in question - so what's the significance of this photo in terms of supporting the possible authenticity of the auction helmet? clearly it is not fitted with a rear chinstrap snap nor is facemask mount position consistent with the auction helmet:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/x02.jpg


the bottom line: all of the photos you've posted, just like all of the many other photos available of butkus from the 1970 (albeit moot), 1971 and 1972 seasons, offer sound evidence in terms of why the auction helmet is not an authentic butkus gamer rather than why it might be. so, again, it's very disappointing to see heritage look the other way despite being furnished with plenty of evidence which they obviously could not contradict.

...

aeneas01
05-04-2010, 12:28 AM
In your photo, that rivet and the lower chin strap button are located right where it is on the offered helmet. Very interesting indeed!

which photo are you referring to - which photo do you feel matches the auction helmet?

...

TriplexXxSports
05-04-2010, 07:33 AM
which photo are you referring to - which photo do you feel matches the auction helmet?

...

Robert,

The one that slats7 originally posted. All I meant by that is that it shows the low rivet being below the screws in the mounting clips and it shows a chin strap button below the ear and mounted more in the jaw area, which also 'resembles' the position of ONE of the buttons on the Butkus. 2 character traits that neither auction house cared to pick up on when digging through photos.

It is obvious, with attention to detail, that there is a whrilwind of problems with the offered helmet. What's interesting to me (as you mentioned above) is that there ARE pics out there that "resemble" the offered helmet a little better than the original photo(s) provided.

slats7
05-04-2010, 10:43 AM
snipped

the bottom line: all of the photos you've posted, just like all of the many other photos available of butkus from the 1970 (albeit moot), 1971 and 1972 seasons, offer sound evidence in terms of why the auction helmet is not an authentic butkus gamer rather than why it might be. so, again, it's very disappointing to see heritage look the other way despite being furnished with plenty of evidence which they obviously could not contradict.

...

I don't know what all the bickering/agitation is about. I've already conceded that the Heritage helmet almost certainly doesn't align with any of the photos I've provided, save for the low center rivet. It was irresponsible of them to market it as a genuine Butkus absent definitive proof. The thing is, you spent so much time on the Mastro auction, emphasizing the parallel rivets, that you left the impression that he never wore a helmet with a center rivet that low. You did mention that he wore two types of helmets during those years, but you only emphasized the differing chinstrap setups and low facemask mounts. Since Heritage never tried to pass it off as the same helmet in the iconic 1971 photo, I'm not sure why it was necessary to revisit the Mastro auction. It only added to the confusion.

aeneas01
05-05-2010, 03:23 PM
I don't know what all the bickering/agitation is about..

didn't mean to come across as abrasive or combative - i suppose your posts with the photos just reminded me of a tactic employed by some auction houses from time to time: point to similarities while ignoring the fact that it's clearly not the same item in question. i know this wasn't your intention....


I'm not sure why it was necessary to revisit the Mastro auction. It only added to the confusion...

if possible, i think it's important to show how a bunk item was first deemed authentic, i.e. how it first made it's way into circulation. in this case mastro compared the auction helmet to an iconic photo of butkus and claimed that it was the same helmet. from there it made the rounds as authentic. not sure why this was confusing...


It is obvious, with attention to detail, that there is a whrilwind of problems with the offered helmet. What's interesting to me (as you mentioned above) is that there ARE pics out there that "resemble" the offered helmet a little better than the original photo(s) provided.

no doubt txs - mastro could have at least selected a photo of butkus sporting the other helmet as it would have been a much better (albeit only frontal) match. i suppose the good news is that buyers get fleeced for less and less each time this helmet surfaces - it sold for about 30% less at heritage when compared to what mastro got for it...

it would be nice to see heritage contact the buyer to tell him that the accompanying loa was based on a photo of butkus that, upon further scrutiny, did not match the auction helmet. and that after further review, heritage has been unable to find a single photo or film clip that confirms butkus did indeed wear the offered helmet. yep, that would be nice to see...

...

TriplexXxSports
05-05-2010, 05:36 PM
......it would be nice to see heritage contact the buyer to tell him that the accompanying loa was based on a photo of butkus that, upon further scrutiny, did not match the auction helmet. and that after further review, heritage has been unable to find a single photo or film clip that confirms butkus did indeed wear the offered helmet. yep, that would be nice to see...

What?! And give up that sweet chunk of change made off of Consignment fees and Buyers Premiums?

That would be the noble/honest way to do it but unfortunately, in this day and age, it will show up again at another auction firm and we will be having the same debate. Heritage turned a blind eye (despite being properly informed) cashed out, and wiped their hands clean of the whole ordeal. Its someone else problem now, and that's a shame.

I just feel for the person who forked out the cash, probably relying mostly on the Auction Houses reputation and description of authentication.

slats7
05-05-2010, 07:27 PM
What?! And give up that sweet chunk of change made off of Consignment fees and Buyers Premiums?

That would be the noble/honest way to do it but unfortunately, in this day and age, it will show up again at another auction firm and we will be having the same debate. Heritage turned a blind eye (despite being properly informed) cashed out, and wiped their hands clean of the whole ordeal. Its someone else problem now, and that's a shame.

I just feel for the person who forked out the cash, probably relying mostly on the Auction Houses reputation and description of authentication.

They no doubt hope that bidders don't do their homework or stumble upon forums like this one. PT Barnum was right when it came to "suckers."

trsent
05-05-2010, 11:54 PM
As I posted before. I find the problem here is that Heritage has a policy to trust authenticators even when one of the most respected game used helmet experts in the world comes to their attention with facts showing there are issues.

The big head of the coin/currency dealers now in the sports memorabilia business showing no respect for facts possibly selling questionable merchandise is a shame to the industry.

I would expect more from Heritage, but I guess when your father owns the company you believe that you are better than one of the leading game used helmet experts in the world since you have a letter from an authenticator who didn't do the homework Robert did.

Chris Ivy? Are you reading this? You should man up and do the right thing before we lose more customers in this industry who spent their hard earned money for questionable items.

aeneas01
05-06-2010, 02:37 PM
What?! And give up that sweet chunk of change made off of Consignment fees and Buyers Premiums?

keep in mind most auction houses actively purchase collections and/or individual pieces outright as well - as such an auction house can be on the hook for much more than just a commission percentage. hypothetically, assume heritage actually purchased the butkus helmet outright for $6k or so knowing it sold for more than twice as much at mastro. in this case heritage would be out much more than $2k in buyer/seller fees if forced to eat it.

...

aeneas01
05-31-2010, 03:24 AM
recently came across this fantastic rare photo of joe namath during the 1968 afl east/west allstar classic played on 01/19/69, taken just one week after he led the jets to an improbable super bowl 3 victory over the heavily favored baltimore colts.

it immediately brought to mind the embarrassing research job heritage did on a helmet they were convinced was namath's sb3 gamer, a helmet they described as "...arguably the most significant football artifact ever to reach the auction block" and which they claimed was given to the owner right after the super bowl. heritage listed the helmet with a starting bid of $50,000 in their 2008 signature auction. but, as it turned out, the helmet was proven not to be namath's sb3 gamer - in fact, as it turned out, the helmet didn't even belong to namath, he never wore it. heritage was forced to yank the thing.

after such an ugly and public black eye one would think heritage might consider exercising a little more diligence in their research the next time around but, alas, the butkus helmet clearly suggests otherwise....

anyway, what i found especially entertaining about this photo is that namath is sporting his sb3 helmet in this allstar game - the side "jets" decals have been removed and so have the two center stripes (however you can still clearly see remnants of the center stripes). as such namath's sb3 helmet, dressed as he wore it in sb3, is gone forever...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jn.jpg

....

cohibasmoker
05-31-2010, 08:25 AM
Last week I happened to get an email from another collector. In the email, he addressed a variety of issues one of which it seemed to him that the amount of suspension helmets worn by big name players have diminished and/or practically disappeared. My reply was then as it is now - there's a new sheriff in town.

After reading this thread, are there any doubt's?

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

Mark17
06-01-2010, 11:09 AM
Look at the screws on the facemask. The offered lid has phillips head screws, the Butkus photos all seem to show single slot screw heads.