Cardinals jerseys in Grey Flannel

[Birdbats]

I just got off the phone with Richard Russek, the president of Grey Flannel. Actually, I should say he just got off the phone with me because he hung up on me. I was calling him to express my concerns about the Cardinals jerseys in his current auction. If you look at the eight "gamers," they all have too much material on the name plates the the left and right of the NOB lettering. This is a common trait of bad Cardinals jerseys after the mid 1990s. The memorial patches on the 2002 jerseys also are not consistent with those made by Liebe for the team. And the 1931-32 jersey has a felt logo, not embroidered, so it can't be "issued."

I started the conversation by explaining that I had concerns about the excess material on the name plates. Rich's reply was, "What about the McGwire?" I said I thought it also had too much material compared to photos that are readily available from 1998. He then cut me off by saying the consignor has a photo of himself and Mac in the dugout and that Mac gave him the shirt right there. When I tried to ask if he had any photos of Mac wearing the jersey in a game, he cut me off again to tell me I had no credibility with him, and basically nothing else I had to say mattered. He was quite loud and agitated while I remained calm and tried to get a word in edgewise. I was not able to before he hung up on me.

I'm going to tell everyone here what I wanted to tell Mr. Russek. Get as many photos as you can of players from those seasons wearing similar jerseys. Compare the name plates in the photos with those on GF's jerseys and decide if anything looks amiss to you. Draw your own conclusions. I was prepared to share my research on 2002 jerseys and the memorial patches, but we never got that far.

If the Mac consignor's story is true and he did get the jersey from Mac, then all that proves is that Mac gave a mocked-up jersey to a friend. Doesn't mean he wore it -- and it certainly doesn't mean the other Cardinals jerseys being offered by GF are legit, either.

Mr. Russek, if you're reading this, I encourage you to call Mr. DeWitt. Maybe after you've spoken to the people on the team with whom I've already discussed these jerseys, you might not be so quick to dismiss my credibility. I'm confident they will tell you exactly what I wanted to tell you before you hung up on me -- the name plates and memorial patches on your jerseys are suspect and demand more research on your part.

[bigtruck260]

The fact that Mr. Russek dismissed you is a sign that he's out of touch with the truth...or at least didn't feel like hearing it. I have said this before and I will say it again - I would take the word of a dedicated team/person collector over that of an auction house authenticator ANY day.

Thanks for due dilligence Jeff. I know the other guys and gals appreciate it.

D

[skipcarayislegend]

I don't see what the big deal is. Doesn't everyone get angry and call people names whenever they're politely approached with legitimate questions?

Seriously, good post, Jeff. I'm personally having trouble id'ing the "photo matches" in the Curt Flood lot. Call me a nitpicker but I was under the impression that photo matches and style matches were two totally different things. I guess I haven't been in the hobby long enough. I'd call and get it cleared up myself but I doubt I have any credibility with them either.

[bigtruck260]

Here is an opinion for you...

I don't like the signature on the Rolen jersey.

[legaleagle92481]

I have noticed something. Most auction houses do not care if an item is real. All they care about is getting their cut. I can point out several football jerseys that do not appear real in this GF auction as well. They figure with baseball season starting and the Cards a popular team the jerseys will bring in big money and alot of collectors just bid under the logic of oh well GF says it is real and it featured is in a nice, glossy catalougue so that is good enough for me. Other auction houses are just as bad if not worse. As this thread and the one about the Jeter jersey show do not bid unless you do your homework and if you still are not comfortable dont bid. It is better to pass on an item you are not comfortable with then buy it and get stuck with it.

[Dewey2007]

I e-mailed GFC with my concerns about the 2003 Dontrelle Willis black alternate World Series jersey they have in their current auction but never got a response. The tagging looks nothing like the tagging that was on another game used Willis WS jersey they sold in 2006. Given the fact that they sold yet another Willis WS jersey that was autographed and supposed to be game used a couple of years after that means in four years they have will have sold 3 different game used Willis black alternate WS jerseys and that is not counting the one I had to return last year because it was a retail jersey. I also mentioned to them that Dontrelle's mom told me in an e-mail that Willis kept his WS jersey so that means that he either wore a different black alternate jersey in every game or there is a very good chance this one is probably not what it appears to be.

GFC always has a lot of quality stuff in their auctions and I have had a good response in the past to a couple of questionable items I have received but it's the stuff like the Cards jerseys Jeff pointed out that don't get addressed and that seems to kind of overshadow the good stuff. You would think that GFC or any "reputable" auction house for that matter would be happy to hear from a serious collector like Jeff about questionable items but that doesn't seem to be the case this time.

[cohibasmoker]

I just got off the phone with Richard Russek, the president of Grey Flannel. Actually, I should say he just got off the phone with me because he hung up on me. I was calling him to express my concerns about the Cardinals jerseys in his current auction. If you look at the eight "gamers," they all have too much material on the name plates the the left and right of the NOB lettering. This is a common trait of bad Cardinals jerseys after the mid 1990s. The memorial patches on the 2002 jerseys also are not consistent with those made by Liebe for the team. And the 1931-32 jersey has a felt logo, not embroidered, so it can't be "issued."

I started the conversation by explaining that I had concerns about the excess material on the name plates. Rich's reply was, "What about the McGwire?" I said I thought it also had too much material compared to photos that are readily available from 1998. He then cut me off by saying the consignor has a photo of himself and Mac in the dugout and that Mac gave him the shirt right there. When I tried to ask if he had any photos of Mac wearing the jersey in a game, he cut me off again to tell me I had no credibility with him, and basically nothing else I had to say mattered. He was quite loud and agitated while I remained calm and tried to get a word in edgewise. I was not able to before he hung up on me.

I'm going to tell everyone here what I wanted to tell Mr. Russek. Get as many photos as you can of players from those seasons wearing similar jerseys. Compare the name plates in the photos with those on GF's jerseys and decide if anything looks amiss to you. Draw your own conclusions. I was prepared to share my research on 2002 jerseys and the memorial patches, but we never got that far.

If the Mac consignor's story is true and he did get the jersey from Mac, then all that proves is that Mac gave a mocked-up jersey to a friend. Doesn't mean he wore it -- and it certainly doesn't mean the other Cardinals jerseys being offered by GF are legit, either.

Mr. Russek, if you're reading this, I encourage you to call Mr. DeWitt. Maybe after you've spoken to the people on the team with whom I've already discussed these jerseys, you might not be so quick to dismiss my credibility. I'm confident they will tell you exactly what I wanted to tell you before you hung up on me -- the name plates and memorial patches on your jerseys are suspect and demand more research on your part.

Jeff,

Just who do you think your are? You're bad for the hobby because all you do is sit behind your computer and cause trouble. You have a bad, bad attitude.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast

[33bird]

Hey they're the official authenticators of the NBA Hall of Fame! What are you?...................LOL. I'm with ya brother. Always be careful with GF. Good stuff mixed with bad. They've had a number of bad MJ Bulls jerseys over the years too...

[kings418]

legaleagle 92481, could you please share any info. on the bad football jerseys in this auction ?

Thanks,
Vince

[nickacs]

Thanks for sharing Greg. As others have said, you HAVE to do your homework with any auction house, Ebay item or anything your going to bid/purchase. Believe me, I learned the hardest way there is....

I know their BHOF auction last Sept, one of their employee's (I forget the name) was actually very helpful in supplying more pics, letter/coa's, etc for items. A lot of there lots say they "come with another LOA", so I always like to see who they are from. There was a Stockton jersey I really really wanted, but the "pristine provenance" was from a really old equip manager that just said "I authorize this as a game worn jersey". No mention of Stockton, year, anything. I didn't bid of course.

Every GFC auction there is a Bird, West, Parrish, Jordan jerseys, all of which I'm trying to own someday, but they rarely have any provenance whatsoever that makes me not want to bid :(

But thanks for sharing about Mr. Russek. "Interesting" conversation there.

[tom1315]

Jeff, thank you for sharing the data and concerns on the Cardinal jerseys. This willingness to share information - learn from each other the specifics re whatever one collects is what makes this forum great!

Tom

[Sincityson]

Jeff, thanks for the insight on the Cards jerseys. If there's anything even slightly off in any auction, it's good that it be brought up & discussed among those who know. Nothing at all wrong with proplerly discussing things that some are prepared to drop some decent cash on.

[legaleagle92481]

legaleagle 92481, could you please share any info. on the bad football jerseys in this auction ?

Thanks,
Vince

the emmitt smith I don't like at all light game use is rare on running backs and that jersey looks pristine.


discussed in other threads;

49ers gamers, particularly Steve Young
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=34287

marvin harrison;
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=34024

[tigerdale]

Jeff,
Great post! I also know just because a jersey may come from a player, doesn't mean its the real deal. I know some players have retail or replica ones just for those instances, when they have to hand one out. Great post again!!

[otismalibu]

It's the Friday all-request lunch and this one is going out to Birdbats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDwb9jOVRtU

[kirkb]

For what its worth I am apparently still banned by Russek, apparently for telling the truth. I guess some people cannot handle the truth.
I was apparently banned from GF last year for reporting GF was handling yet another(in my opinion), fake Barry Sanders jersey. I was courteous, there was no argument, they pulled the jersey, then I found out I was banned with no explanation.
Being a Detroit Lion fan and jersey collector, I have 100's of photos and all videos of Barry Sanders games. You cannot fool me. I own Barry's only 1991 home, 1992 home, and 1993 road. The same rips, tears appear week after week. I have seen the '92 home auctioned over 20 times, and the '91 home I'd say 7 or 8 times. Of course none of these have ever been photo matched. Each and every one of them is a fake in my opinion. And I have tons of evidence.
I know it probably gets annoying for some of these companies, who to believe or not believe. But it is equally difficult to watch this stuff go on and on when you know the truth. I am sure there are scores of collectors here from other cities with similar knowledge.
As for being banned I'll just go through another party to aquire the item I want.

[nickacs]

Kirkb, I'm right there with ya man. It's such a shame how many times a players jerseys are auctioned and not even worth a dime. And how many times it makes it around the block.. Sheesh

I wouldn't consider myself a MJ jersey "expert" but in my quest for a legit MJ home/away jersey, I've tried to photomatch every one that has come through auction houses/Ebay. I even email the auction houses the discrepancies, and while some listen, most do not. There is one '96 MJ in a current auction house as we speak (I can't list the name because they've already threatened me by seeing my posts on here in the past), but I emailed them the Getty photos that undeniably show it's just the usual MJ authentic that gets sold by everyone. They thanked me, but because it comes with a Lampson special and even a GFC letter, they say it must be legit.
Fine by me, but I won't come anywhere near it. With my latest Jeter jersey saga, it just kills me to see others burned spending thousands of dollars on something that is worth maybe a couple hundred at best. :( The auction houses don't authenticate themselves (which is the problem) and leaving it to 3rd parties to do the work for them.

You just have to sort out the bad crap with the good. There are some good items out there to be had, you just have to find them. Makes it 10x harder to want to bid on anything these days....

[skipcarayislegend]

If you look at the eight "gamers," they all have too much material on the name plates the the left and right of the NOB lettering. This is a common trait of bad Cardinals jerseys after the mid 1990s.

Of the eight jerseys originally listed (McGwire, Pujols, Renteria, Drew, Matheny, Edmonds, Rolen and Taguchi), six have been "temporarily" removed. Anyone care to guess which two remain open?

http://catalog.greyflannelauctions.com/catalog.aspx?searchby=3&searchvalue=cardinals

Big ups to GF for ignoring the baseless harassment from the amateurs and taking it upon themselves to seek the advice of a credible Cards expert.

[Birdbats]

Gotta admit, I'm a little surprised to see that GF might actually have heard what I was trying to tell them. Good to see that six jerseys are temporarily withdrawn, but I hope they don't stop there. The 1931-32 jersey has a felt birds-on-bat logo when it should be embroidered. Pujols jerseys from 2003 should have a straight hem and not an athletic cut (tails). And not only do I still believe the McGwire jersey has too much material on the name plate, but I know for a fact (thanks to the curator in Cooperstown) that the tagging isn't remotely similar to the tagging in the jersey Mac wore when he hit HR #62. Granted, it's likely that not all of Mac's jerseys in '98 were tagged differently than other guys' jerseys. But, I have to wonder if there were two types of Mac jerseys in '98 -- those he wore, which are identifiable by the tagging, and those he gave away, which had typical tagging. Still researching this through the team.

In case anyone is wondering what I mean by "too much material on the name plate," the photos below compare legit jerseys (left) with GF's jerseys (right, with edges of plates highlighted). I've also included a photo of a legit '31 embroidered jersey next to GF's felt-patch jersey. For the record, I suspect it's a salesman's sample. Rawlings lost the Cardinals contract in the late '20s, but won it back in '31. The GF jersey could be one of the options they presented in trying to win back the Cardinals business. Don't know for sure, but I do know it's not "game issued."

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w232/birdbats/GFjerseys.jpg

[Lokee]

When evidence like this is presented if you do not remove the items you really are a douche.

[Mulligans]

I am not sure that I understand why the Harrison Jersey is not thought to be legitimate? I have looked through the past posts, but I am still not certain what is going on?

Are you suggesting that the Harrison has been floating around for awhile at other auctions and then someone added the words "Game Used" to it after the fact?

Can someone who is aware of the situation please be more specific?

Thanks!

[legaleagle92481]

I am not sure that I understand why the Harrison Jersey is not thought to be legitimate? I have looked through the past posts, but I am still not certain what is going on?

Are you suggesting that the Harrison has been floating around for awhile at other auctions and then someone added the words "Game Used" to it after the fact?

Can someone who is aware of the situation please be more specific?

Thanks!

It appears to be the same jersey that Eric Stangel commented on a couple of years ago when it was auctioned earlier. The GU inscription appears to have been written by a different hand then the signature. In 2004 Marvin did sell a few jerseys to Authentic Sports Investments (ASI) who at the time was a big memorabilia company they had Sammy Sosa, Palermiro and a bunch of other athletes as exclusive athletes. I recently picked one up that was blessed by Mears and JO and photomatched and the customizations on the jersey in the GF auction are accurate. It is the handwriting that concerns me though.

[Mulligans]

I'm still not sure that I undertand the problem with the Harrison Jersey. In my opinion, the words "Game Used" look similar in style, ink color, bleeding etc.

I could not find or see the Harrison that was listed on the other auction site? Did the Jersey originally appear in the other Auction without the words "Game Used" and then someone felt that they were added after the fact?

Any further info. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Birdbats]

A postscript...

I tried to log onto my Grey Flannel account today to bid on the 1988 Twins Gaetti jersey -- but my bidding privileges have been revoked.

So, let's recap. I called GF to share my concerns about nine Cardinals jerseys. I received a verbal dressing down from the president of the company. Soon after, six of the jerseys were pulled from the auction. Then I had my bidding privileges nuked.

And I'm the one with no credibility?