Challenge: You're The Authenticator

[Eric]

Hello forum members-

There has been a lot of criticism and heated debate regarding how authenticators do their work. I personally have displayed a Lou Lampson COA which I felt offered very little information about the item. I think many of the problems personally come from the fact that the way Mr. Lampson chooses to do business is different from what my approach would be, So let's get some insight, I pose this to you.

Complete this sentence

If I were authenticating I would...

Remember, this is not an excuse to take shots at anyone, I'm looking for opinions here.

I will even chime in on this with some thoughts off the top off my head.

If I were authenticating I would...

1- Right off the bat include my contact information on every letter. In this day and age, there is no excuse not to make yourself AT LEAST available by email.

2- Know my limits. There is not a single person who knows what tagging, style, fonts etc are appropriate for baseball, football, basketball and hockey. I'm sorry, but that expert does not exist. What I would do was only authenticate in the areas I knew (which hopefully would bring my percentage of mistakes down to a minimal percentage) and either shop out to experts in the areas I didn't know OR not write letters on things I knew I wasn't knowledgeable about.

In the authenticating business, all you have is your name. If people can trust your name, you get repeat business and it feeds on itself. If people feel they can't trust your name, it hurts your business, and the business of the auction houses who employ you, so it seems foolish to do things that would hurt your reputation.

3- Be upfront about conflicts of interest. I would never ever authenticate something for an auction house that I currently or ever had a financial interest in without mentioning it on the letter. Some people would see that as an endorsement of the item. Some people would choose not to get involved in that item. Either way, you are arming the consumer with information to make their own decision.

4- Provide some sort of guarantee. If I am calling myself an authenticator and you bought something with your hard earned money based on my analysis of the item, which later was proven to be incorrect, I would make myself accountable. Again, that goes to the above statment that your name is the most important asset in this hobby. I don't know if it would be a buyback policy, or perhaps something the consignor and auction house would have to sign saying a deal would be undone in this situation- but something has to be done here.

In the end, I would offer the best opinions I could, and make myself accountable if they were wrong. Anything short of that is unprofessional in my eyes.

Just my thoughts. I'm giving this a sticky because this is your hobby and you have the chance to pressure authenticators and auction houses to do the right thing.

Your thoughts?
Eric

[allstarsplus]

2- Know my limits. There is not a single person who knows what tagging, style, fonts etc are appropriate for baseball, football, basketball and hockey. I'm sorry, but that expert does not exist. What I would do was only authenticate in the areas I knew (which hopefully would bring my percentage of mistakes down to a minimal percentage) and either shop out to experts in the areas I didn't know OR not write letters on things I knew I wasn't knowledgeable about.


Eric - Great thread! You are exactly right on your Point 2 above.

I would also like to see the authenticator put a "real" signature on their COA.

Also, when chain of custody provenance is known it would be great to state how the "owner" got the item for instance "From the Yankees Batboy". I know many of us have gone back to an "original" source to check validity.

When a similar photo can be found of the item, let's include that on the COA. I really like the photomatching that Rudy has done.

I think Authenticators need to start a database of rejected items so we can all be educated on these items and keep a watchful eye when these items pop back up for sale!

Just some of my thoughts.
Andrew
info@allstarsplus.com

[porsche544]

My Suggestion Is....provide The Consumer With More Information Other Than What Is Obvious....i've Seen Loa's That Only Provides The Measurements Of A Jersey And Shows Some Use And They Have Been Deemed Game Used.if You're Authenticating My Jersey, Bat Etc And I'm Paying You An Xxx Amount Of Dollars, You Better Do Your Research And Provide Me A Photomatch Of The Athlete Using This Jersey. I Know It's Time Consuming--so Then Hire Another Employee To Do Just Research On Photomatching.if You Cannot Provide A Photomatch Or A Strong Provenance So Please....please Do Not Call It Game Used Based Your Assumption.if You're Unsure Then Don't Provide An Loa At All. I Know It's All About The $$$$, But If You Want To Keep To Be Respected In The Hobby Concentrate On Quality Not Quantity. And Only Provide A Loa When You're 100% Sure.gerald

[suave1477]

I agree with Eric so I can say not further towards him you hit all the nails on the head.

I disagree with All Star and Porshe

All Star
1) By adding a photo to the LOA of a likeness of a Jersey is considered false promotion. So you cant do that.
2) For the authenticator to actually sign his own name to the letter will take up way to much time and its too tedious. When you get a letter in the mail that you just been approved for a Credit Card do you see the President of the bank hand signing every letter - NO.

Porshe
1) Just because you cannot get an exact photo match of an item does not mean its not real, and will also leave tons of memorabilia left out there unclaimed bcuz there is no photomatch? So I disagree with you that all items being authenticated should be photomatched. There is not a photo for everything!!!

[b.heagy]

If authenticators were held accountable for the items they authenticate there would be a dramatic drop of intentional and unintentional deception in this hobby. I would make myself accesible such as keeping certain work hours to be reached at and respond in a timely matter, even an emergency contact number. As Eric has already stated reputation is the key, once your reputation is tarnished it is hard to get back on the saddle. If I authenticate an item that someone had spent their hard earned money on judging by my research then I should be held accountable. if that were to happen then this hobby would be a whole different ball game. When you look at it from this point of view you start to really take time and consider all of the following factors in making your final decision. If I were uncertain of an item I would 1: ask for help and make sure the final verdict is correct, 2: send the item back until further research could be done or not authenticate the item at all, never guess or say well it could be - but im not 100% sure but this guy is my buddy so....... Photo match as much as I could impossible to do with every item) and like i said stand behind everything I put my name on. If I have the time to research the item and take all the necessary steps to authenticate an item I WOULD PERSONALLY SIGN ALL LETTERS OF AUTHENTICITY. I understand the tremendous amount of items that would come in but if you are gonna step up and walk the walk you gotta talk the talk. Evaluate everything. If you have people working for you then you must take responsibility and examine EACH and EVERY item that PASSES the authentication process. Turn around time would be a problem but for IRONCLAD authentication it is well worth the time. I know I would take every Darryl Strawberry item to SUAVE1477 as I am impressed by what I have seen so far and I am still new to this forum. There are many others on this forum I would contact as well. Just a few of my thoughts off the top of my head that I would take into consideration.

[both-teams-played-hard]

There is not a photo for everything!!!

Very True! Many of my older college basketball jerseys are almost impossible to photo-match. There just aren't that many vintage photos from the 50s and 60s available. I can't find photo-matches, photo-references, style-matches, photo-likenesses, NOTHING! I might go to the National, just to look for media guides and programs. If anyone is bored...please look thru my website collection. Photo-matches make friends!
http://www.both-teams-played-hard.com


Back to the topic...
Consignors should carry some blame for made-up "impeccable sources". However, this is no excuse. The authenticator should do research on the jersey without knowledge of the provenance or alleged provenance. The jersey should authenticate itself.

[Nathan]

I've been having to draw up some stuff for new insurance related to my collection, so here's what going into each one. I don't intend to move any of this anytime soon, but in case I do, here's what my own documentation looks like.

1) Yes, I have contact information for myself. I don't provide a phone number because this isn't my source of income and is strictly a hobby.

2) A very detailed description of exactly what the jersey looks like (including pictures that I took myself). This includes tagging of every kind, description of all identifying features of the jersey, and a fairly detailed description of visible wear.

3) I do identify where the jersey came from. It's nothing terribly exciting ("I bought this from the Volunteers' athletic department store", for example), but it identifies where it came from and roughly when I acquired it.

4) Very few of these are specifically tagged for a certain year, so it's up to my research to find out when it would have been used. All of that research is included, although I pare it down a great deal.

5) A statement as to whether or not I currently own or have previously owned an item

6) My signature

7) If I can find a photographic or other media match, that's included in there as well

I have no compunction about limiting myself to what I know, which is Tennessee football from the last 15-20 years. I won't go back earlier than that, and I won't touch other sports.

[trsent]

Hello forum members-

There has been a lot of criticism and heated debate regarding how authenticators do their work. I personally have displayed a Lou Lampson COA which I felt offered very little information about the item. I think many of the problems personally come from the fact that the way Mr. Lampson chooses to do business is different from what my approach would be, So let's get some insight, I pose this to you.

Complete this sentence

If I were authenticating I would...

Remember, this is not an excuse to take shots at anyone, I'm looking for opinions here.

I will even chime in on this with some thoughts off the top off my head.

If I were authenticating I would...

1- Right off the bat include my contact information on every letter. In this day and age, there is no excuse not to make yourself AT LEAST available by email.

2- Know my limits. There is not a single person who knows what tagging, style, fonts etc are appropriate for baseball, football, basketball and hockey. I'm sorry, but that expert does not exist. What I would do was only authenticate in the areas I knew (which hopefully would bring my percentage of mistakes down to a minimal percentage) and either shop out to experts in the areas I didn't know OR not write letters on things I knew I wasn't knowledgeable about.

In the authenticating business, all you have is your name. If people can trust your name, you get repeat business and it feeds on itself. If people feel they can't trust your name, it hurts your business, and the business of the auction houses who employ you, so it seems foolish to do things that would hurt your reputation.

3- Be upfront about conflicts of interest. I would never ever authenticate something for an auction house that I currently or ever had a financial interest in without mentioning it on the letter. Some people would see that as an endorsement of the item. Some people would choose not to get involved in that item. Either way, you are arming the consumer with information to make their own decision.

4- Provide some sort of guarantee. If I am calling myself an authenticator and you bought something with your hard earned money based on my analysis of the item, which later was proven to be incorrect, I would make myself accountable. Again, that goes to the above statment that your name is the most important asset in this hobby. I don't know if it would be a buyback policy, or perhaps something the consignor and auction house would have to sign saying a deal would be undone in this situation- but something has to be done here.

In the end, I would offer the best opinions I could, and make myself accountable if they were wrong. Anything short of that is unprofessional in my eyes.

Just my thoughts. I'm giving this a sticky because this is your hobby and you have the chance to pressure authenticators and auction houses to do the right thing.

Your thoughts?
Eric

Eric, how close is MEARS at abiding to your suggestions already? I am curious what is missing from your concepts that may make them the ultimate authentication company?

[porsche544]

[quote=suave1477]


2) For the authenticator to actually sign his own name to the letter will take up way to much time and its too tedious. When you get a letter in the mail that you just been approved for a Credit Card do you see the President of the bank hand signing every letter - NO.


Suave,
I DISAGREE WITH YOU ON THIS ONE.
1. TO GET AN ACTUAL SIGNATURE ON THE LOA ADDS A SENSE OF SECURITY AND VALIDITY ON THE PRODUCT.

2. I KNOW THAT YOUR COMMENT ON THE CREDIT CARD LETTER IS AN ANALOGY. CREDIT CARD COMPANIES SEND THESE LETTERS TO MILLIONS OF PEOPLE DAILY. IF YOU'RE ONLY JOB IS PROVIDING LOA'S AND GETTING PAID FOR IT, YOUR SIGNATURE BETTER BE ON THAT LOA. A GREAT EXAMPLE OF THIS LOA IS JAMES SPENCE. I PAY HIM $75 TO AUTHENTICATE MY JOE DIMAGGIO BASEBALL. I GET AN NOTARIZED LOA WITH A PHOTO DESCRIBING THE BALL AND A JAMES SPENCE SIGNATURE. WAS THAT HARD FOR JAMES SPENCE TO DO? NO, BECAUSE HE PROBABLY TAKES A LOT OF PRIDE IN HIS WORK AND HE KNOWS HE GETS PAID GOOD MONEY TO DO IT.

3. HOW MUCH DOES THIS FELLA LOU LAMPSON GET FOR AUTHENTICATING GAME USED JERSEY OR A BAT FROM ONE OF THESE AUCTION HOUSES. I'M ASSUMING $50 PER LETTER? IF JAMES SPENCE CAN PROVIDE A NOTARIZED LETTER FOR A SMALL AMOUNT OF MONEY. WHY CAN'T HE FOLLOW SUIT.

I JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE THE GAME USED INDUSTRY IS HEADING. I KNOW IT'S A HOT MARKET BUT THE AUTHENTICATORS AND THEIR LOA'S ARE YEARS BEHIND.

[Eric]

Just to clarify what we're talking about here. I'm not saying there aren't services who already include some of the attributes of what I mentioned above- I'm just saying that if I were starting an authentication service, those would be the building blocks.

People have complained about how certain authenticators do business. Those comments are how I perceive the right way to be.

I think the suggestion to keep a photo database of the rejected items is a fantastic one. It would give people an idea of which questionable pieces to look out for AND being able to see what is incorrect tagging, fonts, styles etc is just as important a learning tool as knowing what's accurate.

I think a photo style match would be helpful on the COA, but perhaps that falls under the "If I started an auction house I would..." question.

I think authentication services have to be more strict about letting people know what is a game issued item and what is a game worn item. If I am not mistaken, with the current systems out there used by companies, if you send them a game issued item which never left the locker room, and you are clear and up front about it being a game issued item, it will get the same grade as one which was used on the field. If I am wrong about this, I will gladly post the correction, but from my research and experience on this and the old board, it appears to be the case.

I realize with modern jerseys it is difficult to distinguish between game issued and game used because jerseys these days can be used for just a few innings, but there has to be some way to keep the distinction on a COA.

I'm still pondering this topic and will add more of my thoughts soon.

Have a terrific 4th of July everyone
Eric

[EndzoneSports]

Eric, how close is MEARS at abiding to your suggestions already? I am curious what is missing from your concepts that may make them the ultimate authentication company?


Pardon my barging in on Eric's response, but you ask a question that was on my mind as well. The folks at MEARS do seem to encompass many (though not all) of the traits that one might deem as desirable in the "ultimate authentication company". In my view, here are the positive things that they're doing (in order of their importance to the hobby):


· Ethics Policy - LTC Dave Grob has a pretty well-defined vision of the direction that they hobby needs to go and the direction that MEARS should take; he also understands that the steps needed to move in that direction will be of an incremental nature and that the movement towards that direction may not all come at once. While MEARS has one of the better ethics polices in the business, it is also fluid and, as I have seen, open to evolution as new situations arise.
· "Buy Back" policy - A no-gimmicks policy which states, (per the MEARS web site) that "if you own an item and [MEARS has] written a letter on it and the item is shown to be other than what [they] have stated, [MEARS] will arrange for a refund." Such a policy shows a strong confidence in their own research process and likewise instills a sense of confidence in their customers/auction bidders, who are guaranteed that if an item is shown to be materially different that as advertised, the authenticator is on the hook, not the consumer.
· Thoroughness of authentication process - Not that I (or anyone else for that matter) couldn't find some fault with the grading or authentication process used by MEARS, let's give them credit on two counts... First, it's likely the most thorough and without doubt the most consistent process used in the authentication business today; second, for any faults that one may find with the grading/authentication system, they've at least been demystified and are out there for all to see. You know on what criteria each and every jersey/bat is going to be evaluated.

For all of these positives, there is some downside as well... Much of it intentionally compromised in order to faciliatate some of the positive aspects described above (or others). In recent communication from/with Dave Grob, some of this issues raised include the following (note that these are my perceptions regarding these issues, and not the position of Dave Grob or anyone at MEARS :


· Cost - Particularly applicable to the some commercial/auction house customers, the MEARS cost structure may not have been as "user friendly" as other offering like services. The cost of the MEARS service, however, is a reflection of the thoroughness of the authentication process. In some cases, however, particularly on lower-end items, what the auction houses wanted, was little more than a letterhead with a description of the item and a recognizable signature. Hats off to MEARS for not caving in a creating either a 2nd-tier "quick authentication" or a "special rate" for commercial clients. They had a business plan from the beginning and decided to stick with it. Cheers!
· Logistics - I would suspect that one of the factors that plays into the cost is the logistics of the authentication process itself. While I may stand to be corrected, MEARS authentication requires that items be submitted to their Milwaukee, WI offices; very limited work is actually completed "in the field". Once in hand, MEARS policies state that they will "typically process and ship orders within 14-30 business days of receiving the submission".... That's a 3 to 6 week non-guaranteed turnaround time, not the most workable situation for an auction company looking to turn consignments into a catalog within a reasonable time window. Especially considering the option of flying in an authenticator for a few hundred $$ who will look at 10-12 items an hour and then return home to churn our letters on a word processor based on sketchy field notes. No need to bother with detailed research here since 1) you're not going to be accountable for the service you provide; 2) there will be no way to contact you with questions should they arise since all that will appear on your LOA is your well-traveled name; and 3) any valuable authentication information that might be provided in the letter is not likely to be utilized by the auction house anyway since their auction catalog copy writer will scribe two lengthy, albeit meaningless, paragraphs detailing the career biography of the player followed by a sentence stating something to the effect of "Appropriate wear and tagging say Lucky Lon's LOA".

· Authenticator's Wanted - So how do you open up the logistics bottleneck to cut down the turnaround time. Trust me, I'm sure Dave G & Co have spent time and effort struggling with this and given it considerable thought. One suggestion would be to farm out part of the work to "specialists" in certain areas that could help ease the load. This might help; might not. Items would still have to be submitted through the MEARS headquarters, be forwarded to the specialist for examination then returned to MEARS for final processing before being returned to the customer. The additional forwarding time required could very easily offset any gains made in bottleneck reduction from a staffing standpoint. So why not just hire additional permanent staff? While I believe that it is something that MEARS is willing to do, there just don't seem to be a lot of qualified candidates out there beating down their door who:
o Have sufficient, well-rounded experience in the memorabilia hobby to act in the capacity
o Be willing to relocate to geographic vicinity of the MEARS headquarters
o Be willing/able to be financially accountable for the decisions rendered (personally back up the company's "buy back" policy)


While not the strongest advocate of 3rd-party paid authentication (I'd much rather see hobbyists become educated to the point of self-authentication), I also understand the reason behind the existence of such services and as long as the need for such a service remains, I think that MEARS is doing an admirable job.


[Ed. Disclaimer: Patrick Scoggin dba Endzone Sports has been described a "friend to MEARS", and yes, we do support the direction that they are attempting to lead the authenticating/evaluation business. While a subscriber to the MEARS Online service, we have never paid to utilize their (or SCDAs) evaluation services), as we also offer our own limited authentication service (http://endzone.pscoggin.com/Authenticate.htm (http://endzone.pscoggin.com/Authenticate.htm)) and prefer to self-authenticate items in our collection.]

Regards,

[trsent]

Patrick, great post.

What stuck out was your points about how MEARS doesn't cave in for a cheap dollar with quick authentications or anything of that nature. I also like the fact that MEARS doesn't give their service away to major auction houses for a large, quick score. They understand that if they give their services away then they will cheapen their product and the industry will not trust their services as they currently do.

I would like to see MEARS work with eBay to get their company on the pre-approved authenticator list with eBay. SCDA is on the list (last time I looked) and MEARS needs to get on that list.

They are not perfect, but they are trying and they appear to be open to suggestions to make their company more user friendly. It will be neat to see how the numbers come back from Vintage's switch from MEARS to Lou Lampson.

[gatorcollector]

Why don't we start a photo archive here on GUU to show examples of proper tagging, fonts, etc. Members could upload pictures of items they know are legit. It could be organized by team. For example, the Yankees section would include photos of uniforms and tagging to show changes through the years. Known fakes could also be included so they can be compared side-by-side with the real thing. I'll bet we have enough collectors to provide samples for almost every team. Just in this thread alone we have 3 guys who specialize in specific teams. Something like this would be a real asset to the hobby and something we can all be proud of. What do you think?