Game worn 1984 Dodgers F. VALENZUELA road jersey

[platinum1]

Can I please get some help with this jersey.
I would love to get this jersey but I have no ideas
what I need to be looking for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270534639977&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[sox83cubs84]

Goodman did sell pro-quality jerseys to certain "connected" parties, but the year to be wary about on Fernando is 1981, when Fernandomania was extant. The jersey looks good, as far as what can be seen in the photos, for the most part. I've never seen a size 43 Valenzuela jersey, but have seen plenty of 44s, so this is within the realm of possibility, as Goodman did issue odd sizes to players on occasion. No year/set tagging is used by the Dodgers in that year.

What you may or may not see up-close in terms of use/wear will be important, and can't be addressed from the photos.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[LA_1968]

I'm no expert, but the "o" in Dodgers in the auction jersey does not look right to me.

Here's a getty link...
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/71664643/Getty-Images-Sport

[platinum1]

Thanks Dave
I agree all the Fernando jerseys I have seen area size 44.
But I guess anything is possible.

LA_1968
I dont see what you are talking about.
Can you please help out
Thanks

[LA_1968]

LA_1968
I dont see what you are talking about.
Can you please help out
Thanks

http://www.cp-electronics.com/temp20kls9/fernando-84.jpg


That scripted "o" going accross toward the "d" looks different to me. The original looks straight accross and the one in the auction is dropping from right to left. I am no pro but I have seen experts on Dodgers look closely at the logo.

Charles

[TNTtoys]

http://www.cp-electronics.com/temp20kls9/fernando-84.jpg


That scripted "o" going accross toward the "d" looks different to me. The original looks straight accross and the one in the auction is dropping from right to left. I am no pro but I have seen experts on Dodgers look closely at the logo.

Charles

Charles,

Side by side, if you compare the two logos, the "s" is more different between the two jerseys than the "o"

This could mean anything... you could be comparing apples & oranges. They could be from different years... the logo may have changed slightly in the 2 years... it is also possible that the jerseys in the photos were manufactured by 2 different companies.

Any Dodgers experts available to explain the logo discrepancies?

Nick

[metsbats]

I think the angle in the Fernando photo is hiding the end loop in the "s".

I found another photo of Orel wearing a 1984 road (see same patch as the Fernando).

[TNTtoys]

In thinking that the home jersey with the logo variation was indicative of home jerseys, I just dug up a photo of a Dodgers road jersey of that era (like the Valenzuela in question) and found that the logos match up better. Notice the O in both the Valenzuela and in the Lasorda. Oddly, the "D" looks different now. Perhaps we need another example -- this time, another 1984 road jersey? Maybe the script on the jersey just was not consistent from year to year?

[TNTtoys]

I think the angle in the Fernando photo is hiding the end loop in the "s".

I found another photo of Orel wearing a 1984 road (see same patch as the Fernando).

Thanks Dave, you beat me to the punch. My next step was to find an '84 road gamer to match the Ds up... this one did the trick.

Wow, I can't really say that Goodman & Sons had good quality control on their Dodgers jerseys back in the early 80s. Subtle differences all over the place.

[platinum1]

Here are some more pictures.
I cant believe is that hard to find pictures of Fernando.
http://i.ebayimg.com/23/!BmM+C,w!mk~$(KGrHqEH-DMEtpSNG9bcBLeyKOP-cw~~_12.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/23/!Bc+3dkgBGk~$(KGrHqIH-CYEqtnnGH49BK26oZJZZg~~_12.JPG

[platinum1]

It looks like Fernando only wore size 44.
I was able to find this.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/6314453
163. Fernando Valenzuela LA Dodgers jersey. Fernando Valenzuela made MLB history by winning both the Rookie of the Year Award and the Cy Young Award in the 1981 season with the LA Dodgers. He became an instant media icon, drawing huge crowds from the Los Angeles Hispanic community, and triggering a craze that became known as "Fernandomania". This is Hernandez' 1984 LA Dodgers uniform consisting of his #34 jersey (size 44), pants, dark blue long sleeve shirt, blue belt, LA Dodgers cap, dark blue stirrups, and black Puma cleats. This uniform was displayed on his wax figure unveiled at the Hollywood Wax Museum at the height of his popularity. A wonderful opportunity to acquire a piece of LA Dodgers history.

[platinum1]

I hope someone can help me out in comparing the jersey.
The bottom on the G where it curves. The space between the G and the 3 are really close on the jersey on Ebay.
Compared to all the other pictures I have provided the curve on the G and the 3 is spaced out.
It looks like this jersey is having to many issues.

[nickacs]

I'm no jersey expert, but I agree that there are too many jersey letter/number inconsistencies for me personally to feel comfortable buying that jersey.

Just saw this one on Ebay, a 1993 game used jersey of him. Looks maybe a little better? :) Good luck!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fernando-Valenzuela-Dodgers-Game-Used-Worn-Jersey-UDA_W0QQitemZ300372829693QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item45ef9da5fd

[platinum1]

I'm no jersey expert, but I agree that there are too many jersey letter/number inconsistencies for me personally to feel comfortable buying that jersey.

Just saw this one on Ebay, a 1993 game used jersey of him. Looks maybe a little better? :) Good luck!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fernando-Valenzuela-Dodgers-Game-Used-Worn-Jersey-UDA_W0QQitemZ300372829693QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item45ef9da5fd
It looks nice but at $3,000 im going to pass.

[LA_1968]

Platinum1,

Since this is sorta your thread, do you want to hear thoughts about the sellers other items? I ask because it would be somewhat off topic.

The other 3 jerseys were pretty big stars in the 80's as well plus they are all Goodman mfg'd.

I don't know how helpful you guys think it is to look at a sellers other items when deciding on one but I think it might be something to consider when they are all similar in a couple ways. Plus the feedback is 1.

I studied the Keith Hernandez for a while last night.

Charles

[platinum1]

Platinum1,

Since this is sorta your thread, do you want to hear thoughts about the sellers other items? I ask because it would be somewhat off topic.

The other 3 jerseys were pretty big stars in the 80's as well plus they are all Goodman mfg'd.

I don't know how helpful you guys think it is to look at a sellers other items when deciding on one but I think it might be something to consider when they are all similar in a couple ways. Plus the feedback is 1.

I studied the Keith Hernandez for a while last night.

Charles

Yeah the low feedback also scares me.
What did you think of the Keith Hernandez jersey?
I asked him how he obtained the Valenzuela jersey and he told me that he traded for the jersey a couple of years back.
But it looks like Im going to pass on this jersey.

[both-teams-played-hard]

It looks like Fernando only wore size 44.
I was able to find this.

I would rarely say never, and hardly ever say only. I don't know about this Fernando, but in my 25+ years of collecting I have never seen an odd number size (43)...however, I could have forgot.:)

[TNTtoys]

I would rarely say never, and hardly ever say only. I don't know about this Fernando, but in my 25+ years of collecting I have never seen an odd number size (43)...however, I could have forgot.:)

Not directly related to the discussion on the Fernando Valenzuela jersey, but in response to the odd size of 43. I recall several baseball jerseys in unusual sizes. Most notably, Sammy Sosa commonly wore a size "47" jersey. Here's an example of one of his:

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?auction_id=6606

[flaco1801]

i think pete rose had odd size shirts too

[metsbats]

I had a Dave Magadan 86 Goodman road jersey sized 43.

I've never seen this odd size on Rawlings though.

[TNTtoys]

I had a Dave Magadan 86 Goodman road jersey sized 43.

I've never seen this odd size on Rawlings though.

I don't think I have ever seen an odd size on a Rawlings either. I have seen it on Majestic and Goodman jerseys.

[TNTtoys]

Gentlemen:

With regards to the Gooman jerseys for sale, this is a very informative read. Specifically, post #14 by Tom Duino in the following thread (member 012562). Tom is a very knowledgeable Angels Collector.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=7088&page=2&highlight=reggie+jackson+goodman

Regards,
Nick

[EricDavis44fan]

I'm no jersey expert, but I agree that there are too many jersey letter/number inconsistencies for me personally to feel comfortable buying that jersey.

Just saw this one on Ebay, a 1993 game used jersey of him. Looks maybe a little better? :) Good luck!
http://cgi.ebay.com/Fernando-Valenzuela-Dodgers-Game-Used-Worn-Jersey-UDA_W0QQitemZ300372829693QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item45ef9da5fd

The $3,000 1983 Fernando Valenzuela jersey has 1985-1990 Goodman tagging. This info is from Bill Henderson's Jersey guide, and also is the same info Rudy passed along to me a few years ago. Hope this helps.

Dave
Always looking for Eric Davis Gamers

[sox83cubs84]

I don't think I have ever seen an odd size on a Rawlings either. I have seen it on Majestic and Goodman jerseys.

I haven't seen them on the older red Rawlings tags, but I had in my collection many moons ago a 1990 road Cubs Derrick May which was tagged a size 45. Other than that, the only odd sizes I've seen on Rawlings gamers were in embroidered strip tags, a couple of times on mid 1970s Mets jerseys, either as a size itself (41) or in a range (40/41).

Dave M.
Chicago area

[metsbats]

The $3,000 1983 Fernando Valenzuela jersey has 1985-1990 Goodman tagging. This info is from Bill Henderson's Jersey guide, and also is the same info Rudy passed along to me a few years ago. Hope this helps.

Dave
Always looking for Eric Davis Gamers


Dave

Thanks for posting this info.

[LA_1968]

What did you think of the Keith Hernandez jersey?


I was looking at the guy's other 3 items... The Keith Hernandez looked really good against an REA Mears A10:
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1406.html

Except you can't see the hem in the auction jersey:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Authentic-game-worn-1986-K-Hernandez-Mets-road-jersey_W0QQitemZ270534637483QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efd1ef7ab

http://www.cp-electronics.com/temp20kls9/khernandez1986.jpg

Like I said, this doesn't have much to do with the Fernando but I do see an inconsistency in this other one while the rest of it looks pretty darn good to me.

That 3k Fernando has been on ebay for at least a month from my memory.

Charles

[TNTtoys]

I was looking at the guy's other 3 items... The Keith Hernandez looked really good against an REA Mears A10:
http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1406.html

Except you can't see the hem in the auction jersey:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Authentic-game-worn-1986-K-Hernandez-Mets-road-jersey_W0QQitemZ270534637483QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_ DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3efd1ef7ab



Charles,

Unfortunately the hem is not the only thing inconsistent with the Keith Hernandez jersey. I find the seller's story on how he acquired it inconsistent too. Worrysome to say the least for a jersey with no paperwork and a seller with no reputation.

On the actual auction listing, the seller appended the answer to a question he was asked -- how was it obtained. He responded that he bought it approximately 23 years ago at the national sports convention. That dates the convention at either 1986 (potentially too early given the Mets were wearing these on field at the time) or 1987.

Given Tom Duino's diatribe about mass-produced road gray Goodman & Sons jerseys of star players circa 1982-1986 that were identical in every way to real gamers and included Mets jerseys (which is just about as big a red flag as it gets -- let's not forget that his feedback is "1"), I asked the seller a little more about where he bought the jersey. He mentioned the convention, but this time, he gave the location - downtown L.A. Trouble is, the NSCC was not in LA at all during this timeframe. 1986: Arlington TX, 1987: Atlantic City NJ, 1988: San Francisco, 1989: Chicago.

Did he buy the jersey elsewhere? Are his recollection of the dates wrong? Possibly. But those questions, Tom's post, the lack of feedback, the fact that the jersey has no paperwork, and the fact that the jersey was started at such a ridiculously low price had me wondering.

So... I will not be bidding. This jersey is going to turn out to be either one of those mass-produced Goodmans or a "steal" from someone who has not shied away from bidding due to all of the apparent red flags. Hoping for the future buyer , it is what it is purported to be, because from the looks of things, it will sell for a lot of money! I for one am not that big a gambler.

Nick

[platinum1]

Now I know why I love this site.
Because you get people that actually want to help.
Thank You everbody that has helped.
LA how do we know for sure that the jersey Robert Edward Auction is legit.
It looks like Goodman made a boat load of these jerseys and anyone could of doctored the jersey to look legit.
At this time Im going to pass on the Valenzuela and save my money.
Thanks

[LA_1968]

Charles,

Unfortunately the hem is not the only thing inconsistent with the Keith Hernandez jersey. I find the seller's story on how he acquired it inconsistent too. Worrysome to say the least for a jersey with no paperwork and a seller with no reputation.
Nick

I was just having fun trying to get the physical characteristics to check out or not. I thought it was strange how he never showed the bottom third of any of his jerseys and then I stumbled on the shot of the tag revealing a difference of the Hernandez.

I definetely appreciate your teaching of how to disprove background information. You basically can discover if the person is dishonest or misinformed without even looking at the product. It is also key to have the lowdown on weather mass produced replicas were made of certain things... this is something that only comes with time and being in the loop.

In learning about gu collecting I find a couple things interesting. Too much hype on descriptions seems to make me skeptical and it usually turns out to be justified. The other thing is that these thousand dollar plus items so many times have photos taken with camera phones. Even on big auction houses. I wish the big houses would set the standard of photo quality higher to make it harder for people who want to pass off something.


LA how do we know for sure that the jersey Robert Edward Auction is legit.
It looks like Goodman made a boat load of these jerseys and anyone could of doctored the jersey to look legit.
Thanks

Yeah... I thought about that but I'd rather take the Mears word over the newbee seller on ebay who "guarantees" money back. You're right though, either Hernandez could be real or fake. Thanks for calling the Fernando to our attentions so someone like me could practice on it and learn. Sometimes I get the idea people don't want to "out" a product on here in order to save money. That strategy has it's pros if you know what you're doing.



Charles

[TNTtoys]

I definetely appreciate your teaching of how to disprove background information. You basically can discover if the person is dishonest or misinformed without even looking at the product.

Just two things here.

I actually delved into the background minutia here because bits and pieces were provided to me (and other prospective buyers). In the absence of actual documentation, sometimes a story can help. In this case it unfortunately didn't.
I would best compare what I did here to a scenario such as... Seller lists a game used cap on ebay with no LOA. States that the cap was acquired after a specific game. I then go through various published photos of the game itself to try to piece it together. I check to see that the team wore that style cap on that day... maybe there is a photo of that player wearing the cap... maybe there is a specific mark on the cap that I can distinguish.

I also like to believe "misinformed" over "dishonest." Suppose the jersey is in fact one of the mass-produced Goodmans. The ebay seller may not have known that at the time and still might not. It could have been sold to him 20+ years ago as "the real deal." This hobby was far from regulated; it still is not in my opinion. What we could be looking at here is a seller who honestly believes he owns game used jerseys of these superstars and has simply forgotten the year in which he bought them.

This type of thing happens all of the time, and are usually honest mistakes. For example, there is an ebay seller right now who has for sale a 1990 Darryl Strawberry Scoreboard promotional jersey. We all know that it's not worth any more than $100.00, but the seller thinks he has a geniune gamer. He has it listed at 11X this amount. Why? Because he bought it for $500+ on ebay recently, thinks it is genuine, and now thinks he's going to flip it and turn a profit. But in reality, he made a couple of honest mistakes. If there were dishonest intentions here, I am sure this guy would not have spent $500+ on a promotional $100 dollar jersey.

[Kabron1971]

Hi guys! Check this out!!!

http://whatsitworthtoyou.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=appraisal.certificate&item_id=203667

http://s772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/lakermaniac1971/LA%20Dodgers%20Gamers/

The size 43 issue was given light by Zanebats-a respected Dodger gamer collector and Ebay seller. Probably, he's a member here too.....He said that the size 43 was fine. He checked it with several people.....

Thanks a lot!!!!!

[jtorrez]

Hi guys! Check this out!!!

http://whatsitworthtoyou.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=appraisal.certificate&item_id=203667

http://s772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/lakermaniac1971/LA%20Dodgers%20Gamers/

The size 43 issue was given light by Zanebats-a respected Dodger gamer collector and Ebay seller. Probably, he's a member here too.....He said that the size 43 was fine. He checked it with several people.....

Thanks a lot!!!!!

The appraisal says:
The expert, Mickey Treat (http://whatsitworthtoyou.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=users.bio_view&userID=220900), is of the opinion that this item IS PROBABLY authentic.

That is what everyone here said. The problem is as TNT found out that G&S produced several jerseys of star players that would fit that description. It is definitely "authentic" no one questioned that. The issue is that there is no way to really prove it is game used or even game issued to Valenzuela. I emailed the seller about the use of his jerseys and he stated that he used to wear them. The Hernandez had stains from a party that he attended. How can you photomatch a jersey for use on the field when some guy has been wearing them for 20 years and getting stains on them at parties?? How can any G&S jersey ever really be "authenticated" as game used unless the player itself is somehow linked to the jersey?? (That also goes for any jersey not just G&S.) I'm not trying to piss on on your Cherios, I am just pointing out the concerns people on this board had with the seller and his jerseys. If that "opinion" made you feel better, you need to think again.

[Kabron1971]

The appraisal says:
The expert, Mickey Treat (http://whatsitworthtoyou.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=users.bio_view&userID=220900), is of the opinion that this item IS PROBABLY authentic.

That is what everyone here said. The problem is as TNT found out that G&S produced several jerseys of star players that would fit that description. It is definitely "authentic" no one questioned that. The issue is that there is no way to really prove it is game used or even game issued to Valenzuela. I emailed the seller about the use of his jerseys and he stated that he used to wear them. The Hernandez had stains from a party that he attended. How can you photomatch a jersey for use on the field when some guy has been wearing them for 20 years and getting stains on them at parties?? How can any G&S jersey ever really be "authenticated" as game used unless the player itself is somehow linked to the jersey?? (That also goes for any jersey not just G&S.) I'm not trying to piss on on your Cherios, I am just pointing out the concerns people on this board had with the seller and his jerseys. If that "opinion" made you feel better, you need to think again.

Come on Buddy, I will not be a hypocrite. But it indeed made me feel better. You already said it by yourself, that there's no way to prove that this is a gamer or not. Unless you contact the former Equipment Manager of the LA Dodgers in the 80's Mr. Nobe Kawano. The Goodman & Sons mass produced stuffs wasn't even proven too. Now, let me ask you? If you are in my position, wouldn't that make you feel good too?

Try to observe the Steve Garvey that is for auction at Huggins and Scott.com

http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=19781&catid=233&lotno=217

Please observe the tags???? Isn't that this tag is for Goodman and Sons 1985 and up to 1990's? Steve Garvey left the Dodgers in 1983. Yet it has an LOA that it's a 1982 GAmer. So you are right, that it is quite impossible to know if it was indeed game worn or issued.....

As for the case of the Valenzuela....you will never find anything like this anymore. Now, come to think of it, if and ever El Toro enters the HOF, or if ever he signs this jersey with a picture of him actually signing it, that's another story buddy..

I will definitely send this to a respected Authenticator to look on this matter....Thanks buddy.

[apfriz]

If you are still interested in doing some digging...
Vintage Authentics sold a Fernando Valenzuela 1984 Game Used Jersey GU8.5 in their July 2007 auction (it went for 1000 and change)

I tried to dig up the auction listing but didnt have any luck...I remember because I was bidding on it...and if memory serves, i think it was a size 43?!?

If you still want to check it out still, I would try emailing V.A., Im sure they will send you a pic of the original listing.

I believe the V.A. was for a home jersey, but perhaps you can take SOME things away from it...same year if nothing else.

ant

[Rob L]

Hi guys! Check this out!!!

http://whatsitworthtoyou.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=appraisal.certificate&item_id=203667

http://s772.photobucket.com/albums/yy1/lakermaniac1971/LA%20Dodgers%20Gamers/

The size 43 issue was given light by Zanebats-a respected Dodger gamer collector and Ebay seller. Probably, he's a member here too.....He said that the size 43 was fine. He checked it with several people.....

Thanks a lot!!!!!

Umm, this was appraised/authenticated by a Pinball machine expert? Hmm.

[TNTtoys]

Umm, this was appraised/authenticated by a Pinball machine expert? Hmm.

Yes, you got it; his expertise is coin operated machines and juke boxes.
The authenticator was not only completely out of his field of expertise with this item, but managed to authenticate it by photos of it only.

No idea why he's looking at game used jerseys, but he most certainly gave himself an out by stating that it's "probably authentic" in caps.

Next to "Provenance", he indicates "No idea."

And my personal favorite is where he stated "it would help if you have a reputable dealer look at this in person."

[Kabron1971]

If you are still interested in doing some digging...
Vintage Authentics sold a Fernando Valenzuela 1984 Game Used Jersey GU8.5 in their July 2007 auction (it went for 1000 and change)

I tried to dig up the auction listing but didnt have any luck...I remember because I was bidding on it...and if memory serves, i think it was a size 43?!?

If you still want to check it out still, I would try emailing V.A., Im sure they will send you a pic of the original listing.

I believe the V.A. was for a home jersey, but perhaps you can take SOME things away from it...same year if nothing else.

ant

THANK YOU!!!!!!!

[Kabron1971]

Yes, you got it; his expertise is coin operated machines and juke boxes.
The authenticator was not only completely out of his field of expertise with this item, but managed to authenticate it by photos of it only.

No idea why he's looking at game used jerseys, but he most certainly gave himself an out by stating that it's "probably authentic" in caps.

Next to "Provenance", he indicates "No idea."

And my personal favorite is where he stated "it would help if you have a reputable dealer look at this in person."

WOW!!! The experts are smiling.....