Very sad day for my collection

[TNTtoys]

Gang,

You all know I collect NY Mets 1987 road jerseys... well, a few years ago, I missed out on a HoJo. I figured all along it would come back around someday and I'd have another chance at it.

Tonight I saw this...

http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-Topps-Sterling-HOWARD-JOHNSON-mlb-PATCH-Jersey-1-1_W0QQitemZ390154168012QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Defau ltDomain_0?hash=item5ad70026cc

Undoubtedly, a 1987 road jersey of HoJo's was hacked up to create these cards. I'm sick to my stomach.

Nick

[MLB_Authentic]

Make Lemonade Man. Buy em all up and start sewing!!!!!

Just kidding man, that sucks.

[yankees.stub]

Been there and done that.


These card companies need to stop destroying stuff for the sake of "EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A CHANCE TO OWN SOMETHING THEY CAN AFFORD".


My point is - if you cant afford the entire jersey, what good would it do for your to own a square inch of cloth?


This is not as bad - see J. Dimaggio jersey, B. Ruth's pant and Bat, J. Robinson jersey and bat .... just to name few...

[frikativ54]

These card companies need to stop destroying stuff for the sake of "EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A CHANCE TO OWN SOMETHING THEY CAN AFFORD".

Why not? Not everyone can afford a whole jersey, so why not make something that is accessible to the younger demographic? Sorry that your HoJo got the scissors, but now more fans can own portions of his jersey. Look at it this way: one jersey is sacrificed for the gains of many younger collectors who can only afford small swatches of cloth.

-Frik

[TNTtoys]

Why not? Not everyone can afford a whole jersey, so why not make something that is accessible to the younger demographic? Sorry that your HoJo got the scissors, but now more fans can own portions of his jersey. Look at it this way: one jersey is sacrificed for the gains of many younger collectors who can only afford small swatches of cloth.

-Frik

Sorry, but at $200.00 per square inch of cloth, the only people out there getting to enjoy the jersey to its fullest is the Topps Baseball Card Company. You could have the whole jersey for $800.00. Now that you can cut it up into 50 pieces, it's worth $10,000.00. Not bad for an $800.00 investment, huh?
How many of the "fans" could spare $200.00 for a card these days anyway that aren't able to spring for a full jersey?

[legaleagle92481]

It was worst idea ever invented. So somebody can say I own a thumb sized swatch of x players game used jersey. But on the flip side it makes these things rarer as it takes one more out of the marketplace. Though it sucks big time if your looking for that item and it is so rare you cannot find another. Hojo used to be my favorite player actually so you have my symphaties.

[yankees.stub]

Why not? Not everyone can afford a whole jersey, so why not make something that is accessible to the younger demographic? Sorry that your HoJo got the scissors, but now more fans can own portions of his jersey. Look at it this way: one jersey is sacrificed for the gains of many younger collectors who can only afford small swatches of cloth.

-Frik


So with the same attitude ... why dont we cut up the priceless arts, declaration of independent (the day that they cut that up in pieces for the sake of sharing, that will be the day I will boycott that company completely).


And only the flip side of that - with a piece of cloth, would they be consider as game used collector? while the rest who own the entire jersey? bat? cleats? helmet?


So we can discriminate those spend less than other?


Why dont we have a poll - to see how many members agree to have their favorite item cut up in pieces?





These card companies are all having a CAR DEALERSHIP mentality - THE CARD WORTH A WHOLE LOT MORE IN PARTS, so chop it up and you get more money!



And if there are enough people who are willing to spend as little as possible to get an inch of swatch cloth, they will continue to destroy the historical item!

[frikativ54]

So with the same attitude ... why dont we cut up the priceless arts, declaration of independent (the day that they cut that up in pieces for the sake of sharing, that will be the day I will boycott that company completely)

With English like this, maybe you need to take a trip to the National Archives.

Yes - it is a good investment for the card company. But you are also bringing someone - rather, many people - closer to the game.

Isn't being as close as possible to the players the whole point of collecting? Collecting is about everyone having access to the game, not just some financially well-off whole jersey collector.

I used to do the game used card thing, but I tired of it quickly. However, owning a piece of a jersey quickly led to my wanting to own the actual jersey. So - it may be creating more appreciation for game used collecting.

[yankees.stub]

Look at it this way: one jersey is sacrificed for the gains of many younger collectors who can only afford small swatches of cloth.

-Frik


Another thing, if you want younger demographic to appreciate the hobby or the sport .... take them to a ball game ..... let them enjoy it is for what it is.


What if, they ask --- why did they cut that up? and you replied with your statement .... and then they asked .... BUT WHAT THE HECK IS THIS LITTLE PIECE MEAN?



long long long way to explain how capitalism works...

[yankees.stub]

I used to do the game used card thing, but I tired of it quickly. However, owning a piece of a jersey quickly led to my wanting to own the actual jersey. So - it may be creating more appreciation for game used collecting.



You said it there .... Now wonder, how many items were destroyed and fans and collectors alike ....getting tired quickly.


Another thing, have you check the value of the CUT UP cards, say like 10 years back, and now? It really not even worth it.


I still have the very first Ken Griffey Jr. cut up - got so excited and send it to PSA. Get back a 9 ... thinking about selling it but then decide not to ...

Now, these are a dime a dozen.

[frikativ54]

You said it there .... Now wonder, how many items were destroyed and fans and collectors alike ....getting tired quickly.


Another thing, have you check the value of the CUT UP cards, say like 10 years back, and now? It really not even worth it.


I still have the very first Ken Griffey Jr. cut up - got so excited and send it to PSA. Get back a 9 ... thinking about selling it but then decide not to ...

Now, these are a dime a dozen.

Game used was a craze, but it was the same thing with 90s inserts. And look how they bottomed out. Now there's a resurgence in interest.

I don't think you can say that the game used craze was entirely about profits and capitalism. They are aesthetically pretty pleasing.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j16/frikativ54/Baseball%20Cards/BagwellExquisite.jpg
Jeff Bagwell 2006 Exquisite 1/1 Patches

I would never sell these Bagwell cards, and they provided me so much enjoyment. Maybe they don't mean as much now, but back then, I didn't know where to find whole Bagwell game used jerseys.

[yankees.stub]

It was worst idea ever invented. So somebody can say I own a thumb sized swatch of x players game used jersey. But on the flip side it makes these things rarer as it takes one more out of the marketplace. Though it sucks big time if your looking for that item and it is so rare you cannot find another. Hojo used to be my favorite player actually so you have my symphaties.



With any stupid idea to work, someone will have to listen and buy into the crap they are selling.


I used to support the idea - running out and spend money on boxes and boxes and hoping to get a piece of jersey. It is a rush - get something really rare for very minimal money.

But when you dont, you continue to buy more boxes and even cases to get to the prize.


If I can go back and stop wasting money on packs, boxes and cases .... I would owned more stuff I desired!

[Manram]

IMO it is very stupid to do this, although the only reason card companies do this is because they make more money. If you are serious enough about the game you would be willing to buy the whole game used bat or jersey and not a little piece. Just my $0.02

[yankees.stub]

IMO it is very stupid to do this, although the only reason card companies do this is because they make more money. If you are serious enough about the game you would be willing to buy the whole game used bat or jersey and not a little piece. Just my $0.02


I would - if my bills allow of course.

If not, there is always the Hall Of Fame museum ... just like window shopping.


My holy-grail : a Thurman Munson bat - game used. It must documented.


Seen one on eB.... not to crazy about it!

[Fnazxc0114]

this may sound crazy but those little jersey cards and pieces of bats is exactly what got me back into collecting in the late 90's. It had probably been ten years since i bought anything baseball related. Its sad to see old jerseys getting cut up but i guess the owner can do with them as they please.

[TNTtoys]

Moral of the story is that if you pass on an item, thinking that it will come back your way someday, there is that chance that it won't. You just may be losing that item to someone who has intentions to destroy it...

[yankees.stub]

Moral of the story is that if you pass on an item, thinking that it will come back your way someday, there is that chance that it won't. You just may be losing that item to someone who has intentions to destroy it...



Well said....


You have my condolences....



Now please ... dont go and bid on one just for the sake of having something instead of nothing ..... guilt will kill you.


:D

[Texans]

How many road jersey did they wear during that time?


Jojo

[sox83cubs84]

[quote=yankees.stub;186593]So with the same attitude ... why dont we cut up the priceless arts, declaration of independent (the day that they cut that up in pieces for the sake of sharing, that will be the day I will boycott that company completely).


I proposed in another thread that some card company should by a T206 Honus Wagner card and cut it up to stick in insert cards. Of course, to card companies, swatch cards are only a good idea when you're destroying items that AREN'T cards. The same collectors who get semi-orgasmic at an A-Rod, Ruth, or Mays game-used jersey or bat card would probably burn the place down if they cut up an iconic item from THEIR hobby.
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Dave M.
Chicago area

[legaleagle92481]

How can you tell whose bat or jersey it really is on the little swatch or bat piece. With the price of game used items surprising card companies do not cut corners and buy a bunch of common player items for a song cut them up and put them on cards as belonging to stars.

[AWA85]

I've wondered this same thing. How do you know the fabric is really from the star player? Just take the card companies word?

[Manram]

I've wondered this same thing. How do you know the fabric is really from the star player? Just take the card companies word?

They must just taje their word on it. That's another reason collecting the whole jersey or bat is better. You know the player actually used it

[chipperhank44]

There are card collectors and there are memorabilia collectors. Obviously there is a market for both, and as long as that is true, both markets will be satisfied because there are profits to be made. Yes, Babe Ruth jerseys and bats have been cut into pieces. The holy grail of the game used hobby turned into the holy grail of the card collecting hobby. They are still treasured pieces of memorabilia enjoyed and cherished by their owner, just not in the form some of us prefer.

The portion in bold is why the "cutting up the Honus Wagner card" comparison is flawed.

[allstarsplus]

There are card collectors and there are memorabilia collectors. Obviously there is a market for both, and as long as that is true, both markets will be satisfied because there are profits to be made. Yes, Babe Ruth jerseys and bats have been cut into pieces. The holy grail of the game used hobby turned into the holy grail of the card collecting hobby. They are still treasured pieces of memorabilia enjoyed and cherished by their owner, just not in the form some of us prefer.

The portion in bold is why the "cutting up the Honus Wagner card" comparison is flawed.

I see cards like Patches and logos cards which aren't game used and can be obtained from companies like National Emblem and direct from Majestic and this way they don't have to cut up a game used jersey or worst case cut up an Authentic.

Now that Topps has the MLB contract, hopefully they will get league wide cooperation that if they need a game used jersey they can do 1 game wonders to make it "game used" so they aren't cutting up well worn jerseys. If they were smart, they could require the jersey to be MLB hologram'd and then cut out the hologram/holograms for the cards. That would be something different for Topps!

[TNTtoys]

How many road jersey did they wear during that time?


Jojo

I would say that they had 2 per year. If I'm lucky, there could have been 1 or 2 more.

The problem is that in this particular year, the Mets wore a '1 year only' road style... so, when it's gone, it's gone!

[TNTtoys]

I just took another look at the card in question. It's called a "jumbo swatch" card, and instead of a patch, it displays what appears to be the top of the "Y" or "k" in New York, along with the gray material of the jersey. What strikes me odd is the fact that the card is a "1 out of 1." If it's clearly 1 small cutting of the jersey, why is it 1 of 1? Where did the rest of the jersey go?

Getting back to Frik's statement, where many younger collectors can have a piece of this collectible... Apart from the price being $200.00 (where people are being fooled into thinking they are getting something rarer than it actually is), why can only 1 person have this particular card? Where are the other 50 to 100 pieces of this jersey??? Are they going to be "exclusive" 1 out of 1 cards in other series? If so, isn't this deceptive marketing?

[TNTtoys]

I see cards like Patches and logos cards which aren't game used

I have seen swatches of a nameplate on cards, where the letters aren't even part of the player's name who the card is of... have the card companies ever addressed this? Supposing you buy an "Albert Pujols" swatch card because you want a piece of his jersey. Your card has a cutting of a Cardinals nameplate with a letter "T" on it. What exactly is this???

[yankees.stub]

I have seen swatches of a nameplate on cards, where the letters aren't even part of the player's name who the card is of... have the card companies ever addressed this? Supposing you buy an "Albert Pujols" swatch card because you want a piece of his jersey. Your card has a cutting of a Cardinals nameplate with a letter "T" on it. What exactly is this???


Now this is FRAUD!

There is no "T" in PUJOLS ... unless the card company is saying that the CARDINALS is using FIRST name on the jersey also.


Like I said it from the beginning - it is a stupid idea. All it takes is one stupid person who is willing to listen to and believe in it .... it will spread like wild fire!


Just stupid!

[yankees.stub]

I just took another look at the card in question. It's called a "jumbo swatch" card, and instead of a patch, it displays what appears to be the top of the "Y" or "k" in New York, along with the gray material of the jersey. What strikes me odd is the fact that the card is a "1 out of 1." If it's clearly 1 small cutting of the jersey, why is it 1 of 1? Where did the rest of the jersey go?

Are they going to be "exclusive" 1 out of 1 cards in other series? If so, isn't this deceptive marketing?


Just a thought...

Wouldnt it be cheaper just to have those letters pre-cut? Insert them into pack and put 1 of 1 on the card - this supposed to mean there is only 1 of the letter "N" in NEW YORK (for road jersey only).

It would be really funny if they put any letter on pinstripes fabric!


... So this way, they dont have to destroy any jersey and still make a bundle for something that cost penny to make!


Not bad at all...

[chipperhank44]

I have seen swatches of a nameplate on cards, where the letters aren't even part of the player's name who the card is of... have the card companies ever addressed this? Supposing you buy an "Albert Pujols" swatch card because you want a piece of his jersey. Your card has a cutting of a Cardinals nameplate with a letter "T" on it. What exactly is this???

I think the one you are referring to is a manufactured patch and not billed as a game used name plate. They are called "by the letter" autographs and the letters are not game worn, just autographed. I believe it spells out "A-L-B-E-R-T" And yes, it is stupid, but it is not game used and not advertised as such.

[CUTiger23]

Why not? Not everyone can afford a whole jersey, so why not make something that is accessible to the younger demographic? Sorry that your HoJo got the scissors, but now more fans can own portions of his jersey. Look at it this way: one jersey is sacrificed for the gains of many younger collectors who can only afford small swatches of cloth.

-Frik

These are my thoughts as well. It is a very good way to get others interested in this hobby.



Sorry, but at $200.00 per square inch of cloth, the only people out there getting to enjoy the jersey to its fullest is the Topps Baseball Card Company. You could have the whole jersey for $800.00. Now that you can cut it up into 50 pieces, it's worth $10,000.00. Not bad for an $800.00 investment, huh?
How many of the "fans" could spare $200.00 for a card these days anyway that aren't able to spring for a full jersey?

It is not woth $200. Someone would have hit the BIN by now if it was. Topps profits on packs and box sales, not singles anyways. I am sure the other parallels (/25 or whatever since I am not familiar with this set) sold for a lot less than he is even asking. That is what gets people interested. I own a Dave Concepcion jersey card with a big swatch like that I got for $5, but there is no way I could afford his actual jersey. Does that mean I shouldn't be able to own a something used in a game by a should be HOFer and key member of the Big Red Machine? Of course not.

And it does lead others to the hobby. I do question some prices like people dropping tons of money on logos or what not, but even with the recent price spike, $700 (have been around $400 max in the past couple years) could get me the logo shield from a Peyton Manning jersey. Compare that to the actual price of a Peyton Manning gamer. Cutting up some jerseys for cards allows a lot more people to get into a hobby like this. This way, some "richer" Peyton fan gets a truly unique item in the logo while a kid can get a swatch of his favorite QB for like $10 or less. It is a win-win for people like that.

[otismalibu]

How can you tell whose bat or jersey it really is on the little swatch or bat piece.

Exactly. I wouldn't be too concerned that legit piece got dumped in the blender. Swatch cards are the perfect place to dump bad jerseys, once it becomes apparent that the complete piece has too many red flags to sell in its original state.

I think an infamous eBay seller (MSNBC shill report) was selling swatches a few years back too. I bet the fabric that was supposedly from a coat of one of the Beatles was real too. :rolleyes:

One of the most foolish acts in the hobby is taking the word of someone who is trying to sell you something.

[TNTtoys]

Cutting up some jerseys for cards allows a lot more people to get into a hobby like this. This way, some "richer" Peyton fan gets a truly unique item in the logo while a kid can get a swatch of his favorite QB for like $10 or less. It is a win-win for people like that.

If you cut up a jersey of a current star, there are plenty more where they came from. It's not the same story for items of 20-30 years ago (I won't even get into the Babe Ruth era) where cutting up a jersey guarantees that nobody can ever own that jersey again.

[yankees.stub]

One of the most foolish acts in the hobby is taking the word of someone who is trying to sell you something.


Another thing that I remembered about this fiasco - those cards can be doctor to make it more valuable also.

Say you buy dime-a-dozen of the semi-star or even superstars, go out and get one AUTHENTIC JERSEY, cut up the good looking or more desirable piece (MLB LOGO, the tag, multi-color nameplate in the front) ... voila... you have an extreme difficult card to obtain!


It went on the news and they even have experts to show how it is done also - minus the instruction of how to seperate the papers and the ingredients to make sure that the card will not lose it color and so forth!


So again, it was and still is a STUPID idea.


And the thought of sacrified one ... to have thousand an opportunity to enjoy something out of reach..... it is all BS to me!

[TNTtoys]

I think the one you are referring to is a manufactured patch and not billed as a game used name plate. They are called "by the letter" autographs and the letters are not game worn, just autographed. I believe it spells out "A-L-B-E-R-T" And yes, it is stupid, but it is not game used and not advertised as such.

Take a look at this thread...
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=17643&highlight=brees+card
It shows clear examples where tags from jerseys that were never worn by that player have appeared on their "game used swatch" cards. Like a Drew Brees card with a "size 50" flag tag (Brees wore size 46) and a "2003" year tag from a Buffalo Bills player who played for the team for 1 year (2007). It's an enlightening thread to say the least...

[CUTiger23]

If you cut up a jersey of a current star, there are plenty more where they came from. It's not the same story for items of 20-30 years ago (I won't even get into the Babe Ruth era) where cutting up a jersey guarantees that nobody can ever own that jersey again.

That may be so, but that should not mean a former player should be off limits. I cannot afford a Joe Namath gamer, but I can afford a jersey card of him. There are lots of people who will want something like that.


Another thing that I remembered about this fiasco - those cards can be doctor to make it more valuable also.

Say you buy dime-a-dozen of the semi-star or even superstars, go out and get one AUTHENTIC JERSEY, cut up the good looking or more desirable piece (MLB LOGO, the tag, multi-color nameplate in the front) ... voila... you have an extreme difficult card to obtain!


It went on the news and they even have experts to show how it is done also - minus the instruction of how to seperate the papers and the ingredients to make sure that the card will not lose it color and so forth!


So again, it was and still is a STUPID idea.


And the thought of sacrified one ... to have thousand an opportunity to enjoy something out of reach..... it is all BS to me!

Patch faking has been an issue. However, counterfeiting is an issue in this part of the hobby as well. People who know what to look for can easily (for the most part) spot a fake and stay away. You have to know what you are looking for.


Take a look at this thread...
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=17643&highlight=brees+card
It shows clear examples where tags from jerseys that were never worn by that player have appeared on their "game used swatch" cards. Like a Drew Brees card with a "size 50" flag tag (Brees wore size 46) and a "2003" year tag from a Buffalo Bills player who played for the team for 1 year (2007). It's an enlightening thread to say the least...

I have a certified jersey of Tye Hill (by Jim Yackel and Prova group) that is tagged 05,even though he was not a rookie until 06 and it has the Georgia Fontenierre (sp?) patch on it which is from the 2008 season. That is similar to the Edwards one.

Players wear different sizes as well. The Brees ones could be from Chargers jersey which might fit differently. While quickly looking at JO Sports Co. He has sized 42 and 44 Adrian Peterson jerseys that were also tagged 08 but worn this season.

[5kRunner]

Take a look at this thread...
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=17643&highlight=brees+card
It shows clear examples where tags from jerseys that were never worn by that player have appeared on their "game used swatch" cards. Like a Drew Brees card with a "size 50" flag tag (Brees wore size 46) and a "2003" year tag from a Buffalo Bills player who played for the team for 1 year (2007). It's an enlightening thread to say the least...

Explain this card. The jersey style in the card was not worn until 1978. Santo's last season with the Cubs was 1973.

Could it be that the card/jersey this thread was started with was actually worn by someone other than Hojo? I wouldn't give up hope yet TNT.

[yankees.stub]

Here are some of the cards I wish I dont own.

Spent decent amount $ for them.


Would not even care less for what they worth now. Nothing but a guilty conscience for helping the card company detroy these irreplacable object.


PS. NO I am not giving them away either, so dont ask!



:D

[gingi79]

Am I the only one who thinks this is an excellent example of collectors disagreeing yet showing respect for peoples varying opinions? Very commendable considering the recent past issues with that very issue.

On another game worn site, a great idea was raised which solves some of these issues.

1) It's time to stop hacking up jerseys, bats, etc for cards especially for items that are rare and valuable aspects of our pastime's history. People flip out about finding out people wear them, I can't imagine find out some $8 an hour schmuck cutting them up isn't boiling people's blood.

2) Top hockey/baseball/basketball/football/soccer/jai lai/handball/golf/pro nosepicker players should wear a jersey for one period in the Preseason and that should be used to cut up into cards. Ditto sticks, helmets, socks, jocks etc. It's game worn. It would be cheaper. Gets the kids involved. Everyone can own a piece of their idol. TADA! we all win.

3) I am suspect of all the top autographs in this hobby. That goes for UDA, anything with a COA/LOA etc. Unless I saw Michael Jordan or Mickey Mantle sign it, I am suspect of it. Using that logic, how can I not be suspect of the "game used" cards? My dad was very fond of asking "How do you KNOW it's real?"

4) George Carlin once asked "If their are people in this world so adept at forging famous works of art so much so as to fool experts, then why are the originals so valuable?"

5) The greatest swatch card I have ever seen had a part of a MeiGray registration tag. The one and only time I was positive it was really game worn. I find great irony that the only part of the shirt I know was worn is the part you never see the player wear.

[dcrules01]

I skimmed through the thread real quick..Current jerseys yes cut them up put them in the card nice they are a dime a dozen. Why not give the whole jersey away.Hell this HoJo is 1/1 right put a winner card of this item where you get the whole jersey if you pull the card. I am a big fan of Joel Youngblood and Doug Flynn. My favorite style is from 79-82...At best there are 10 home jerseys and road jerseys for both. I own Youngbloods 78 road and Flynn's 80 road. saw a 78 Flynn on Hunts completed auctions and I know of 2 home Youngbloods and he owns 1 himself. With vintage jerseys they were sent to the minors and who knows what happened after that. To me as a collector if I saw a card with a jersey for Flynn or Youngblood that would disappoint me. I am with TNT on this.

When I collected cards back in the 80's I got a rush from getting my favorite player or a Mets player..If you are a kid save your allowance..Look at Kyle he started young and he has a sweet collection.I am sure he has mo regrets at starting little..Hell he scored a Mets broken World Series bat for cheap...

[RJB44]

This whole jersey card thing amazes me. How do you know that the one inch piece of fabric in the card is actually from a certain players game used jersey, or even any game used jersey for that matter. What prevents them from taking a 1990 Cardinals jersey, perhaps used in spring training by a non rooster rookie with number 71 then recycled to the minors, and cutting it up and putting the pieces in an Ozzie Smith card?