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bigtruck260
01-11-2010, 03:16 PM
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/cardinals/story/08C2DA109506E661862576A8006E9484?OpenDocument

Sincityson
01-11-2010, 03:32 PM
It will now be interesting to see if that raises or lowers his 2010 23.7% HOF vote percentage.

sCs

byergo
01-11-2010, 03:39 PM
I applaud Big Mac for coming clean. I think in time America will forgive those who tell the truth, and his voting numbers will spike upward.

Bondsgloves
01-11-2010, 03:45 PM
Its kind of interesting he admitted this right after the halll of fame vote. In addition he came fully clean, saying he used throughout his career. Not like someathlete's who said I used for a short period or only once. I think this will hurt his HOF chances, because he said he used throughout his career.

LastingsMilledge85
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
He should of done it awhile back, but at least he did it probably because of his coaching position and wants to get it off his chest before the start of the season.

Dewey2007
01-11-2010, 03:48 PM
The worst kept secret in America is now finally revealed. Good for Mac. Loved him when he was with the A's.

I wonder how much longer Bonds, Clemens, et al will keep up their charade...

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 03:49 PM
As a STL fan and a baseball fan I was happy for him to come clean....anyone who did not think he used is very naive...he was already assumed guilty as he practically admitted guilt by not denying in front of congres....This was the best thing he could have done for himself and hopefully it can turn positive for him.

He gave us a lot of memories and we have to as fans understand that steroids were part of the game..we must mark it down in history as the steroid era which baseball itself turned a blind eye to and move forward...put everyone in the Hall that deserves based on their impact on the game and their stats/accomplishments with the understanding that everyone who played during the era could be subject to questions regarding PED's....we have no way of knowing who did and did not use before the testing.

Baseball's history are full of cheaters and given the chance those who played in a different era very likely would have taken any and everything to help them play longer....

tjm5711
01-11-2010, 03:52 PM
The worst kept secret in America is now finally revealed. Good for Mac. Loved him when he was with the A's.

I wonder how much longer Bonds, Clemens, et al will keep up their charade...



Clemens will probably take it to the grave! LOL

cjmedina1
01-11-2010, 03:58 PM
I didn't want to believe he was using,But I'm glad he came out and told the truth..Time well tell if he gets in the HOF.:cool:

BTW if anyone wants to unload their MAC stuff feel free to contact me and I'm sure we can work out something

Carlie

carliemedinaiii@sbcglobal.net

rj_lucas
01-11-2010, 04:00 PM
God bless you Mark. I hope you, and the fans, find healing in this admission.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

3arod13
01-11-2010, 04:13 PM
What! Big Mac did what? No way! This can't be true! Did anyone else see this coming? :)

ironmanfan
01-11-2010, 04:14 PM
I applaud Big Mac for coming clean. I think in time America will forgive those who tell the truth, and his voting numbers will spike upward.

He came clean ONLY because he wanted this Hitting Coach position with the LaRussa/Cardinals...

I'd like to to see a player come clean when there isn't anything "in it for them" other than to clear their conscience....

WadeInBmore
01-11-2010, 04:18 PM
a damn shame...thats all there is too say. I was a Mac supporter for years through all of this; giving him the benefit of the doubt. Mac, Bonds, Manny, Raffy, Arod...all busted. What a sad day for baseball. If this was the olympics they all would've been stripped of whatever glory/awards they won as well as there teams. WTF baseball?!? This one hurts.

I do maintain my argument that as a professional athelete you are paid to be bigger and stronger, so over a 10-20 year career they should become larger then life. And yes, while steriods can't give you the ability to hit a ball, it can definately help you to become a freak.

Chalk another one up to Canseco.

I wonder if this effects his status with the Cards or if he was asked to come clean by them?! What prompted this?

<sigh>

wade

ironmanfan
01-11-2010, 04:27 PM
Chalk another one up to Canseco.

I wonder if this effects his status with the Cards or if he was asked to come clean by them?! What prompted this?

<sigh>

wade

Wade:

Of course the Cardianls knew this (it was the worst kept secret in baseball); but I'm sure they asked him to "come clean" prior to Spring Training so that it wasn't a distraction throughout the season....LaRussa and the Cardinals had originally stated that McGwire was going to address the media prior to Christmas, but I suppose that Mac was holding off as long as he could....

bigtruck260
01-11-2010, 04:35 PM
He came clean ONLY because he wanted this Hitting Coach position with the LaRussa/Cardinals...

I'd like to to see a player come clean when there isn't anything "in it for them" other than to clear their conscience....

I doubt that Mac was shaking in his boots about NOT getting the hitting coach position. I'm pretty sure he could have taken this to the grave with him and not allowed his little kids to find out...Mac's a pretty private person. He could have just said 'no' to the job offer. He knew what would happen if he did in fact say 'yes'.

Probably feels pretty good for him right now. Many good ballplayers are not in the hall for whatever reason...

3arod13
01-11-2010, 04:45 PM
He came clean ONLY because he wanted this Hitting Coach position with the LaRussa/Cardinals...

I'd like to to see a player come clean when there isn't anything "in it for them" other than to clear their conscience....

I agree! As an Arod fan, he didn't do it for the right reasons. He did it because he got caught. I don't pat him on the back or praise him for doing it. He would have denied it forever if he could have. He had no choice!

Regards, Tony

scrinjun
01-11-2010, 04:52 PM
I agree! As an Arod fan, he didn't do it for the right reasons. He did it because he got caught. I don't pat him on the back or praise him for doing it. He would have denied it forever if he could have. He had no choice!

Regards, Tony

I agree with this statement as well, he admitted it because he was forced to. But why would the Cardinals want a hitting coach that admitted he was a cheater? I don't get that.

Sincityson
01-11-2010, 04:54 PM
The truth will set him free

momen55
01-11-2010, 04:55 PM
he did it and knew why he did it. know he wants to cry about it and say "i was wrong"? give me a break. no hof vote for you.

3arod13
01-11-2010, 04:55 PM
I agree with this statement as well, he admitted it because he was forced to. But why would the Cardinals want a hitting coach that admitted he was a cheater? I don't get that.

Steriods or not, Big Mac was a great hitter. He proved that in his rookie season with a record 49 HR's. With time, it will pass. Big Mac will make a difference as a hitting coach. I wish him the best!

Regards, Tony

scrinjun
01-11-2010, 05:04 PM
McGwire will be interviewed by Bob Costas tonight on MLB Network, 7 EST

frikativ54
01-11-2010, 05:55 PM
I agree with this statement as well, he admitted it because he was forced to. But why would the Cardinals want a hitting coach that admitted he was a cheater? I don't get that.

He wasn't forced to do anything. Neither Bonds nor Clemens came clean, even when caught red-handed. McGwire could have persisted in his obfuscations. Instead, he did the right thing.

Hopefully, more players will follow suit. But I doubt if HOF-eligible or near-eligible users would come clean, because they risk tarnishing their names. The cost to their reputations is just too great.

I doubt that many from this era were clean. As a Bagwell fan, I am just being honest when I say that I'll bet he used. It was part of the era, an unfortunate one at that.

I've heard that between 50-80% of MLB players used in the steroid era. However, I don't have the evidence to corroborate that statement. It would be harder to find a list of who didn't use back in the 1990s.

grenda12
01-11-2010, 06:12 PM
Will this take the spotlight off Tiger Woods.

Rboitano
01-11-2010, 06:18 PM
If anyone feels like they need to sell their Mac game used bats, email me.
Rboitano@charter.net

WadeInBmore
01-11-2010, 07:07 PM
I guess I am also a bit concerned about Mac tarnishing others reputations. And, again, I'm just hypothesizing. The entire steriod issue seems to spread like the flu once one player that uses appears on the roster, then the norm seems to be, that others follow suit or atleast try it out.

Now, having said this...I worry about Pujols. I know that I'm gonna get chewed out for saying that, but is Big Macs guilt and admission going to potentially tarnish Pujols' image. I'm just speaking my mind and haven't done any research but...did there careers over lap? did Big Mac influence him in any way? did Matt Holliday really turn the corner as a hitter once he started working with McGwire?

Call them fear, concerns...what ever you'd like, but as a fan of the game and as a former player who went to spring training with the Dodgers and worked out with numerous other teams I really can't express how much this one hurts. Kind of makes what Frank Thomas said when he hit his 500th..."the right way".

I'm glad that he came clean and I'm sure he probably feels some sort of relief to boot. Obviously he knew what he was going to have to pay the piper at some point with his return to the game. Shocked...not really. Disappointed...intensely.

I'm not accussing any players in my above statements, but, man, I am worried about the backlash. Think about all the other players he affected because he cheated...money, opprotunity, "value", etcetera. With every new admission I feel a small piece of me cries aloud, for the game and the people.

When all the steriod talk first surficed back in the early 2000's I remember writing a sign when I went to the game that perhaps explains my sentiment best...

Eu tu baseball?

wade

frikativ54
01-11-2010, 07:10 PM
Call them fear, concerns...what ever you'd like, but as a fan of the game and as a former player who went to spring training with the Dodgers and worked out with numerous other teams I really can't express how much this one hurts. Kind of makes what Frank Thomas said when he hit his 500th..."the right way".

Wade,

I never realized that you played ball. That's pretty cool. :)

Ozric
01-11-2010, 08:07 PM
I'm a bit more cynical about the whole thing. I really think that his arrogance still supersedes his intellect and that he was genuinely surprised that he was so low in the HOF voting. It was a calculated effort (in his mind) to hopefully increase his chances to get in the hall. If there's any remorse coming from him at all, it's because he didn't make it into the HOF and was a slap on his ego.

suicide_squeeze
01-11-2010, 08:36 PM
Dewey said it best.......finally the truth we all knew is disclosed.

This also takes a deep chunk out of Tony La Russa, who stood by McGwire to the bitter end, saying he was a product of sound hard "work ethic". Tony La Russa is a good baseball man, but he never fooled me. His success as a manager is directly bound to the entire steroid era, and the fact that his core group of players were the leaders of it's use. Check the teams, the names, the World series victories. Tainted.

Of course, the only question would be his latest victory with Pujols. Wouldn't that be ugly if he turned up a user as Wade has mentioned.

Through it all, the one underlying factor that separates McGwire from the rest of these lying players that only give half-truths or partial truths about their past use is this: McGwire never lied about it. He just never stepped up and admitted it ("I'm not here to talk about the past"). That, if anything, is credit worthy in this whole steroid era mess.

I have to finish with saying.....I always felt that if McGwire came clean, he would eventually be welcomed back to the game with open arms, and in the Hall of Fame voting from the writers too in a positive way. After hearing him (honorably) admit to use "throughout" his career.......eeesch. I'm kinda not sure, now. Hearing what everybody already knew being admitted from the man's own words has stung a lot more than I thought it would. I mean.....if he used his whole career, did it start at USC? The Olympics tested in '84, didn't they? Surely he had to be clean then, wasn't he? I guess what will determine the chance of him making the Hall at this juncture is whether the baseball writers of today feel obligated in protecting the heritage of the older players who are held to the belief they played the game the right way. Mark has done the right thing, the honorable thing. But when you consider he used his whole career....one has to wonder if he even would have had a full career without the juice. And that's going to be a tough concept to overcome.

It will be very interesting to see how it all plays out.

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 08:37 PM
I'm a bit more cynical about the whole thing. I really think that his arrogance still supersedes his intellect and that he was genuinely surprised that he was so low in the HOF voting. It was a calculated effort (in his mind) to hopefully increase his chances to get in the hall. If there's any remorse coming from him at all, it's because he didn't make it into the HOF and was a slap on his ego.


Its not about the Hall of Fame if it was he would not have waited years after initially getting on the ballot and he would not have waited weeks after this years hall of fame voting took place. The guy did not want to be in trouble with the law and did not want to have to drag family and friends into the situation because eventually he would have to implicate others involved. He did not lie but basically admitted already in front of congress without having to go through the legal process. Lastly the fact that he admitted steroid use does not in fact help his hall of fame chances in the eyes of several voters who have already discussed it.

This is about Mac not being a distraction for his team when the season starts and I am sure it feels good to get the truth out for him. Saying this is about arrogance is absolutely foolish.

David
01-11-2010, 08:38 PM
The problem for Bonds and Clemens, versus other players like McGwire, is legal. McGwire never denied it in a legal setting, while Bonds denied use under oath to the Feds, and Clemens denied under oath to the Congress and brought a lawsuit based on the claims he never used. The two have painted themselves into a corner, as, even if they wanted to admit to using PEDs and come blean, they can't as they would be in big legal trouble.

NYCrulesU
01-11-2010, 08:40 PM
I'm happy for him. It's about time (several years late) that he said the words that need to be said and admitted to what we all already knew was true. Now it's done. Let's move on to the forgiving stage and get past the steroid era.

Nnunnari
01-11-2010, 08:42 PM
Get over it people, everybody juiced during this time including the pitchers he faced. He's a hall of famer as are the rest of the greats from this era- it was an even playing field, the non cheaters were few and far between.

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 08:53 PM
Dewey said it best.......finally the truth we all knew is disclosed.

This also takes a deep chunk out of Tony La Russa, who stood by McGwire to the bitter end, saying he was a product of sound hard "work ethic". Tony La Russa is a good baseball man, but he never fooled me. His success as a manager is directly bound to the entire steroid era, and the fact that his core group of players were the leaders of it's use. Check the teams, the names, the World series victories. Tainted.

Of course, the only question would be his latest victory with Pujols. Wouldn't that be ugly if he turned up a user as Wade has mentioned.

Through it all, the one underlying factor that separates McGwire from the rest of these lying players that only give half-truths or partial truths about their past use is this: McGwire never lied about it. He just never stepped up and admitted it ("I'm not here to talk about the past"). That, if anything, is credit worthy in this whole steroid era mess.

I have to finish with saying.....I always felt that if McGwire came clean, he would eventually be welcomed back to the game with open arms, and in the Hall of Fame voting from the writers too in a positive way. After hearing him (honorably) admit to use "throughout" his career.......eeesch. I'm kinda not sure, now. Hearing what everybody already knew being admitted from the man's own words has stung a lot more than I thought it would. I mean.....if he used his whole career, did it start at USC? The Olympics tested in '84, didn't they? Surely he had to be clean then, wasn't he? I guess what will determine the chance of him making the Hall at this juncture is whether the baseball writers of today feel obligated in protecting the heritage of the older players who are held to the belief they played the game the right way. Mark has done the right thing, the honorable thing. But when you consider he used his whole career....one has to wonder if he even would have had a full career without the juice. And that's going to be a tough concept to overcome.

It will be very interesting to see how it all plays out.


Have to disagree with you on a few points here....Larussa still would stand by his statement that McGwire was a product of hardwork. Just taking steroids alone will not allow you to be a better baseball player...McGwire and Bonds etc....were all extremely hard workers and had great work ethics. Steroids or not, these guys put the time and effort to be the greats that they were....So I don't think Larussa takes a big hit necessarily. We all assumed McGwire used anywhere, so nothing really changes but the fact he was successful because of work ethic still stands.

Larussa's success is not just bound to the steroid guys...he in a sense is looked at worse because the big names linked to steroids were on his teams...Jose and Mark. However every manager of every team had guys that used steroids, they all may have not been big names but consider the pitchers and lean players that are not even under suspicion...so many players that used fall through the cracks and unless they want to admit use it will never be known.

Larussa has managed one of the most successful National League teams and the success took place after the big slugger had left....While Bonds and Sosa where making impacts years after McGwire. I do not hear talk of Dusty Baker being taken a "chunk" out of and For example Look at the Cardinals team and tell me what Steroid user made a huge impact on the 2006 World Series team...What about Joe Torre..Clemens, Arod, Pettite...this is Baseball problem to single out Larussa for his success is unfair in my opinion.

schubert1970
01-11-2010, 08:55 PM
I think Mac should bring a ladder with the
hole he's digging

We're going to need a larger circus tent
after this.

allstarsplus
01-11-2010, 09:00 PM
I am watching the Bob Costas interview again. McGwire could have lied about doing steroids during the 1998 season and he admitted to that.

I found him to be honest and credible in the interview.

I don't like cheaters, but with Mark's confession, lets move forward.

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 09:00 PM
I think Mac should bring a ladder with the
hole he's digging

We're going to need a larger circus tent
after this.

I dont see him digging a hole but rather climbing out of one....He has been away from the media and spotlight now he is opening up and coming clean.

bronx_burner
01-11-2010, 09:25 PM
I think he came off as pretty pathetic in the Costas interview. And I don't think this interview improved anything. He probably would have been better off leaving it at the statement from earlier today. Basically he said it was his biggest mistake, cried a lot and at the same time said all steroids did was help him get healthy but that his stats would have been the same without steroids, that he would have hit 70 in '99 without steroids, etc.

Given that, I don't find him to be forgivable. After watching that, the main question I had was if he beleived all that, what was he so sorry for? Why are you crying? Apparently you don't think the game was actually effected by your personal usage.

Also some of the things he said didn't match that line of thinking. When Costas told him that some members of the Maris family believe that Maris is the rightful single season HR king given these admissions, he reponded by saying they have every right to think that. Yet he says he would ahve hit 70 with or without steroids. I don'y get it. I think the man has been wrapped up in secrecy and deception for so long, hes not actually clear on what the truth is anymore.

As for his Hall of fame chances after this, the 3 voters on MLB network that were there all indicated that he would not get their votes. Verducci and Rosenthal hadn't voted for him before and Gammons who had voted for him previously would not vote for him anymore.

Its good for baseball that he admitted using, but his "elaboration" in this interview didn't really do anyone any good.

bronx_burner
01-11-2010, 09:26 PM
'98 not '99. gotta love the edit feature...

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 09:34 PM
I think he came off as pretty pathetic in the Costas interview. And I don't think this interview improved anything. He probably would have been better off leaving it at the statement from earlier today. Basically he said it was his biggest mistake, cried a lot and at the same time said all steroids did was help him get healthy but that his stats would have been the same without steroids, that he would have hit 70 in '99 without steroids, etc.

Given that, I don't find him to be forgivable. After watching that, the main question I had was if he beleived all that, what was he so sorry for? Why are you crying? Apparently you don't think the game was actually effected by your personal usage.

Also some of the things he said didn't match that line of thinking. When Costas told him that some members of the Maris family believe that Maris is the rightful single season HR king given these admissions, he reponded by saying they have every right to think that. Yet he says he would ahve hit 70 with or without steroids. I don'y get it. I think the man has been wrapped up in secrecy and deception for so long, hes not actually clear on what the truth is anymore.

As for his Hall of fame chances after this, the 3 voters on MLB network that were there all indicated that he would not get their votes. Verducci and Rosenthal hadn't voted for him before and Gammons who had voted for him previously would not vote for him anymore.

Its good for baseball that he admitted using, but his "elaboration" in this interview didn't really do anyone any good.

There is no need to really debate whether or not Mark would have been able to hit 70 without steroids because truth is we will never know. I will say that McGwire's Hr's were not cheap shots...ironically 62 was the only one that snuck over the wall....

If you think that steroids adds another 175 ft to a Hr than yes for sure he would have hit less.....

the situations were still stressful and he still had pressure surrounding him and like I said his hr's were no cheap shots..it was a rare occurance that he hit one less than 420 ft which is insane...several were over well over 500ft.

rj_lucas
01-11-2010, 09:40 PM
It's interesting to read this thread in its entirety and see the different personalities come through in the responses.

Before fans got mad at baseball players for using PEDs, they were mad at them for making too much money. Well, salaries are higher than ever, but with PEDs taking center stage, you don't hear a peep about the money anymore.

When the PED's issue has faded away, as it will, fans will find something else to get mad at the players about. Getting mad at ball players is a great American tradition as old as the game itself.

I'm guessing that back in the day, the fans were ready to tar and feather Hoss Radbourne for wearing his cap at too jaunty an angle.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 09:49 PM
It's interesting to read this thread in its entirety and see the different personalities come through in the responses.

Before fans got mad at baseball players for using PEDs, they were mad at them for making too much money. Well, salaries are higher than ever, but with PEDs taking center stage, you don't hear a peep about the money anymore.

When the PED's issue has faded away, as it will, fans will find something else to get mad at the players about. Getting mad at ball players is a great American tradition as old as the game itself.

I'm guessing that back in the day, the fans were ready to tar and feather Hoss Radbourne for wearing his cap at too jaunty an angle.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

Its pretty sad but you can see examples in everything....people envy the guy with the big boat and talk about how cool it is and want one....find out the guy works for an oil company and they now despise the guy and say what a lousy boat it is. lol.

Mac and Sosa excite the fans and we all enjoy the long HR's and ignore the huge changes in body size...find out that they used Performance enhancers and now they are despised...

The history of the game is filled with cheaters, racists and people of very questionable character. There was cocaine, amphetamines, cork and spitballs before steroids....players were always looking for an edge....How do we determine a guy using cocaine to get an extra boost to get through a game is worse than steroid use? McGwire was never tested for steroids it was not discouraged but rather ignored...its time to consider it a troubling time in baseball that has ultimately made the sport cleaner...

NYCrulesU
01-11-2010, 09:56 PM
I find it amusing how people argue about McGwire and steroids today. If ANYONE sat and watched the 'HR race of '98' and didn't know that both McGwire and Sosa were on steroids, they were simply lying to themselves. What's done is done. People need to let it go.

Ozric
01-11-2010, 10:18 PM
I agree that we all need to let this go. It just becomes a bit irritating and difficult to do so when you get called foolish for having an opinion that differs from a homer that champions this guy as being on a noble pursuit for finally admitting that he cheated.

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 10:25 PM
I agree that we all need to let this go. It just becomes a bit irritating and difficult to do so when you get called foolish for having an opinion that differs from a homer that champions this guy as being on a noble pursuit for finally admitting that he cheated.


To think Mark is doing this out of arrogance would be foolish.

Ozric
01-11-2010, 10:32 PM
To think Mark is doing this out of arrogance would be foolish.


Thanks for proving my point. I'm sorry for having an opinion that differs from yours and I'm glad that you know him personally to ascertain this. His nobility for coming clean should be heralded...

STLHAMMER32
01-11-2010, 10:37 PM
Thanks for proving my point. I'm sorry for having an opinion that differs from yours and I'm glad that you know him personally to ascertain this. His nobility for coming clean should be heralded...

I'm not saying he is a great noble person for coming clean. What I am saying is how would admitting steroid use be an act of arrogance...that makes no sense at all. You are saying it is arrogance with no facts at all to support how in the world it would be arrogant.

Manram
01-11-2010, 11:25 PM
On the interview he had with Bob Costas he said he could have put up the same numbers without steriods, just that the steroids made his body feel better.

suicide_squeeze
01-11-2010, 11:54 PM
On the interview he had with Bob Costas he said he could have put up the same numbers without steriods, just that the steroids made his body feel better.


I don't believe he could have even come close to putting up the same numbers without steroids. Maybe 55 homers in a season......once. As the old saying goes (and from his own mouth)......he was a walking MASH unit. The steroids morphesized him into something he wasn't, and would have never been.

Was Mark McGwire one of the best in his era? Absolutely. He holds THE MLB record for most frequent home runs per at bat in a career.

Does that mean he should be elected into the Hall with all of the other generations of greats? That's the debate we will all see unfold over the next decade or so. It's going to be interesting, but I think he's got a super tough row to hoe after some thought. I just don't understand how you can elect a guy who "did it wrong".

On steroids, he was a daily-fresh living breathing HOUSE on two legs. Christ 'ol mighty.....all he had to do was get the wood on the ball, and it wasn't going to come down via gravity anytime soon. Same goes for Bonds. They were both great hitters. But they chose to cheat. I see trouble for both of them in ever getting elected now.....and in the case of McGwire, I feel badly about it. I like him. I enjoyed that 1998 battle. But the aftermath is painful.

I still consider Hank Aaron the all-time home run leader.

And I still consider Roger Maris the single-season home run leader.


But that's just me. And this McGwire confession, albeit a brave and honorable thing to finally do.....just supports the argument.

Manram
01-12-2010, 12:15 AM
That's what i found funny about the interview. He was able to say with a straight face that the believed he could have put up the same stats without steroids.

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 12:24 AM
That's what i found funny about the interview. He was able to say with a straight face that the believed he could have put up the same stats without steroids.

You would have to think it helped him get on the field but he did hit 49 his rookie year which probably wont ever be broken...The distance of his Hrs were out of this world so you would have to think a good portion of them would be out anyway. You would think it helped him recover quicker from night to day games and such though. What sucks is that we will never know how much it helped or even hurt him.

legaleagle92481
01-12-2010, 12:59 AM
Wow what a shock! Not! He was one of my favorite players I spent 100s on a baseball from his Steiner signing and I realize many players used in that era but to me he is still not a hall of famer. Big Mac did very little besides hit home runs and it is impossible to know how many of them were tainted. He never won an MVP, did not reach 2,000 hits, had a very low batting average, no speed and struck out a ton. He won a Gold Glove but he was not exactly Eddie Murray with the glove.

joelsabi
01-12-2010, 01:45 AM
The distance of his Hrs were out of this world so you would have to think a good portion of them would be out anyway. You would think it helped him recover quicker from night to day games and such though. What sucks is that we will never know how much it helped or even hurt him.

One of the most regrettable things is that I think most of his homeruns were so far and away over the fence that the added strength from PED would be insignificant for MOST of the homeruns McGwire hit. At least I would like to think that and maybe some college student will do a study on this using todays recording archives.


McGwire stated: There is not a pill or an injection that is going to give me the hand-eye - or give any athlete - the hand-eye coordination to hit a baseball. A pill or an injection will not hit a baseball.

In my opininion, the above statement is a true statement. That is what is so sad and regrettable -- that the gifted athlete will gain some advantage and taint his natural gifted talent. What amazes us fans is the natural talent. was there enough natural ability for mcgwire to barely break the single season record of maris? wouldnt it have been great to have had drug testing back then and possibly seen mcgwire struggling to get the homerun record instead of shattering it in 1998.

As you said we will never know.

I wish we saw all players back in 1998 using only their natural ability over drugged enhanced performance. I wished we also had baseball writers back in 1998 that had the guts to write about steroids over selling newpapers. I wish also that we had a commisioner and owners back in 1998 that would have shown leadership over selling baseball tickets.

joelsabi
01-12-2010, 02:02 AM
I find it amusing how people argue about McGwire and steroids today. If ANYONE sat and watched the 'HR race of '98' and didn't know that both McGwire and Sosa were on steroids, they were simply lying to themselves. What's done is done. People need to let it go.

The things is that we as fans wanted to believe that we were witnessing history as every other generation of baseball fans had done in the past. No writer exposed us otherwise. No commissioner said otherwise. No baseball owner said otherwise. We wanted to believe.

Athletes were getting bigger and better as every generation of athletes had become in the past. Baseball athletes were starting to lift wieghts and have different body types than baseball players in the past. I do not think the average person in 1998 knew much about PED to think that this is what was going on. Maybe I was naive.

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 02:02 AM
One of the most regrettable things is that I think most of his homeruns were so far and away over the fence that the added strength from PED would be insignificant for MOST of the homeruns McGwire hit. At least I would like to think that and maybe some college student will do a study on this using todays recording archives.


McGwire stated: There is not a pill or an injection that is going to give me the hand-eye - or give any athlete - the hand-eye coordination to hit a baseball. A pill or an injection will not hit a baseball.

In my opininion, the above statement is a true statement. That is what is so sad and regrettable -- that the gifted athlete will gain some advantage and taint his natural gifted talent. What amazes us fans is the natural talent. was there enough natural ability for mcgwire to barely break the single season record of maris? wouldnt it have been great to have had drug testing back then and possibly seen mcgwire struggling to get the homerun record instead of shattering it in 1998.

As you said we will never know.

I wish we saw all players back in 1998 using only their natural ability over drugged enhanced performance. I wished we also had baseball writers back in 1998 that had the guts to write about steroids over selling newpapers. I wish also that we had a commisioner and owners back in 1998 that would have shown leadership over selling baseball tickets.

One thing that i always found amazing was that McGwire and Bonds saw very few good pitches to hit a game at times it would be only one pitch and they would hit it out. They both were walked so many times and pitched around. Steroids or not they were both remarkable.

I would argue that steroids also has a significant placebo affect. Just thinking you have an edge helps and confidence is huge in sports. It would be really tough to prove exactly how much steroids would improve numbers.

scrinjun
01-12-2010, 10:11 AM
.....all he had to do was get the wood on the ball, and it wasn't going to come down via gravity anytime soon. Same goes for Bonds. They were both great hitters. But they chose to cheat.

I still consider Hank Aaron the all-time home run leader.

And I still consider Roger Maris the single-season home run leader.


'Nuff said

stlbats
01-12-2010, 12:07 PM
In my opinion, steroids do somewhat enhance hand-eye coordination. Look at Giambi, David Ortiz, Sosa once they quit using, they couldnt hardly even touch the ball. Their performance was way down. Maybe its just a confidence thing. Some would argue what about Arod now? I believe he was always a great player, these other guys were made great by the PED's.

Jason

bigtruck260
01-12-2010, 01:05 PM
In my opinion, steroids do somewhat enhance hand-eye coordination. Look at Giambi, David Ortiz, Sosa once they quit using, they couldnt hardly even touch the ball. Their performance was way down. Maybe its just a confidence thing. Some would argue what about Arod now? I believe he was always a great player, these other guys were made great by the PED's.

Jason

It probably affects bat-speed...which would make it easier to swing at a faster/moving pitch.

FROM AN EMAIL I SENT THIS MORNING TO THE CARDINALS ANNOUNCER, JOHN ULETT - AND HIS RESPONSE:

I think Mac knows that he's not a Hall of Famer at this point. That being said, he has no reason to lie about why he took steroids. Not many guys have admitted to using STEROIDS by name. Others use certain drugs, etc...and most say that they didn't know they were taking them. Mac made a HUGE statement yesterday.

As far as him 'not thinking it would increase home-run output' - you are talking about a guy who was a MONSTER all through his youth and amatuer baseball. He was hitting prolific homers before he even touched the stuff. As a rookie, he hit 49... As a person who played for almost 20 years, I can tell you that it takes a tremendous amount of skill to hit a baseball that is thrown close to 100mph with movement. Mac was a heck of a hitter, steroids or not. You were there - he was locked in mentally, and that is not something that steroids are known for.

I think he'll do great as an instructor - he knows what it takes and will be a great mouthpiece for the younger players.

The steroid era sucked, but it sure was exciting.


ULETT:

All good points. He did help make a mess for baseball but I don't hold anger or resentment toward him. I'm willing to give him another chance to be a good Cardinal.

whatupyos
01-12-2010, 02:58 PM
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100111&content_id=7903514&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

Check this out. I have always stood by McGwire and will continue to do so. I back him like Tony La Russa. Read this and you'll know why he said what he did back in 2005. For all you who judge without knowing the full story shame on you. The guy made a mistake. Now can we get back to game used collecting? Most of these threads have zero to do with anything collecting.

Aaron

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 03:50 PM
http://stlouis.cardinals.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100111&content_id=7903514&vkey=news_stl&fext=.jsp&c_id=stl

Check this out. I have always stood by McGwire and will continue to do so. I back him like Tony La Russa. Read this and you'll know why he said what he did back in 2005. For all you who judge without knowing the full story shame on you. The guy made a mistake. Now can we get back to game used collecting? Most of these threads have zero to do with anything collecting.

Aaron

Good to hear, I have always backed McGwire and continue to defend the guy against people who bash his character without knowing. I feel obligated I guess because I know the person he is and have seen it first hand. He did make a big mistake but at least this guy cares enough not to throw unders under the bus (clemens). Say what you want about him as a baseball player but all the other remarks about him as a person are just flat out wrong and uninformed.

suave1477
01-12-2010, 04:06 PM
I wish I could join some of you in the ethusiasm of MAC coming forward. In my mind it is too little too late. So he came forward "sooooo" big deal. He should of come forward when all the contoversy was going on. So he comes forward almost 10 years later from retiring??? What does that do for me? Nothing!!

The most important thing which I think a lot of you missed is as much as he apologizes he still has tainted one of the most coveted records in baseball.

When he publically asks to have his Home Run record taken down is when I will be impressed with him coming forward.

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 04:09 PM
I wish I could join some of you in the ethusiasm of MAC coming forward. In my mind it is too little too late. So he came forward "sooooo" big deal. He should of come forward when all the contoversy was going on. So he comes forward almost 10 years later from retiring??? What does that do for me? Nothing!!

The most important thing which I think a lot of you missed is as much as he apologizes he still has tainted one of the most coveted records in baseball.

When he publically asks to have his Home Run record taken down is when I will be impressed with him coming forward.

The reason he did not come forward has already been discussed but at the time of the hearing he actually did admit use just not under oath. The reason he did not talk was because he was not granted immunity and his family and friends would be forced to get involved. Now it is past the limitations and he can talk fully about it.

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 04:11 PM
I wish I could join some of you in the ethusiasm of MAC coming forward. In my mind it is too little too late. So he came forward "sooooo" big deal. He should of come forward when all the contoversy was going on. So he comes forward almost 10 years later from retiring??? What does that do for me? Nothing!!

The most important thing which I think a lot of you missed is as much as he apologizes he still has tainted one of the most coveted records in baseball.

When he publically asks to have his Home Run record taken down is when I will be impressed with him coming forward.

And as far as the record is concerned it no longer belongs to Mark, it belongs to Barry Bonds.

suicide_squeeze
01-12-2010, 04:34 PM
I just feel compelled to say this....


I wish Mark McGwire peace, love, and a happy life going forward. What he did had to be painful, and will continue to be for a long while.

Love him or hate him for cheating.....he had the courage to tell the truth. And that says a lot about his character, and as a man.

suicide_squeeze
01-12-2010, 04:35 PM
And as far as the record is concerned it no longer belongs to Mark, it belongs to Barry Bonds.


Maybe in your book........not in mine. ;)

It still belongs to Maris.

suave1477
01-12-2010, 04:39 PM
And as far as the record is concerned it no longer belongs to Mark, it belongs to Barry Bonds.


It may not belong to Mark but he was the first one to break it anf got the most hoopla over it because it took so long to break and it was hoopla over a tainted breaking. Yes the record on paper belongs to Bonds but as the other member posted.


In my heart it still belongs to Maris!!!

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 04:48 PM
Maybe in your book........not in mine. ;)

It still belongs to Maris.


What Maris did was incredible. There was a reason why nobody approached it for almost 40 years. I will never forget that HR race I think at the time it was what baseball needed but now we can all look back on the records with our own views which is how the game is I suppose.

On a sidenote many would argue the record still belongs to the Babe because of the games played....;)

joelsabi
01-12-2010, 04:59 PM
Two other opinions:

Hank Aaron on Mark McGwire's mea culpa:


"I think that it's wonderful that he did this. It takes a big man to admit this and I want to commend him for that. A lot of people make mistakes, and for him to stand up and admit what he has done in the past, I think it's very admirable.


"As far as I'm concerned he has asked for forgiveness. He has my forgiveness. If that's all that stands in the way between him being inducted into Cooperstown we should all forgive him. He didn't commit murder. He didn't commit robbery. He said he took steroids."


McGwire offered a personal apology to Roger Maris' widow too. While the family still understandably thinks that Roger should have the record, check out their response:


"He told her he had something to tell her - he just wanted her to know the news was going to break and that he did do steroids," Rich Maris said. "He apologized to her, to my dad, to us kids. That speaks volumes to the kind of guy he is . . . My mom was very touched by his call. She felt sorry for Mark - that he's going through this. She conveyed that we all make mistakes and move on from there."


"This [McGwire's steroid use] is something we thought all along. It wasn't so much a surprise, but I feel bad for Mark. He's a very genuine guy and we're close to him - we love him like a brother. I'm glad he got it out."

suave1477
01-12-2010, 05:07 PM
On a sidenote many would argue the record still belongs to the Babe because of the games played....;)

Very true but.......... Babe broke it in more games with the guy who had the record before him.;)

joelsabi
01-12-2010, 05:22 PM
Very true but.......... Babe broke it in more games with the guy who had the record before him.;)

1889 Buck Freeman 25 HR in 155 games
1919 Babe Ruth 29 HR in 130 games ;) as a red sox :eek:

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 05:25 PM
Very true but.......... Babe broke it in more games with the guy who had the record before him.;)


Lol it just goes on and on! Really I think knowleadgeable baseball fans understand that the game has changed and keep things in perspective. I love the history of the game and learning about the greats that played the game.

For instance think about just the medicinal side of sports that has changed. Things like Tommy John surgery and Knee reconstructions many times serious injuries would just end a career... now guys are not only able to come back and play sometimes they are back within a year now! Even things like cleats that are made to support your feet and take stress off your joints...rather than leather and a little cardboard lol.

One thing today's players deal with more and more is the media..the internet has changed things and more and more a player's personal life is open for public discussion. Can you imagine Mickey and other yankees going out and causing the havoc they did today?

sylbry
01-12-2010, 06:14 PM
Between Mark, Dan, and his steriod using, body-building brother Jay, family conversations around the dinner table must be interesting. :)

byergo
01-12-2010, 06:44 PM
What Maris did doesn't impress me very much at all. He is the luckiest guy in the world to bat in front of Mickey Mantle in his prime. He was intentionally walked zero (0) times in 1961 and got tons of balls to swing at.

Mantle's 54 hr's under far different pitching circumstances is far more impressive and underappreciated.

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 07:06 PM
What Maris did doesn't impress me very much at all. He is the luckiest guy in the world to bat in front of Mickey Mantle in his prime. He was intentionally walked zero (0) times in 1961 and got tons of balls to swing at.

Mantle's 54 hr's under far different pitching circumstances is far more impressive and underappreciated.

Not at all? I will give you the fact that Mantle had a great season but even being the least favorite among the two Maris won back-to-back MVP's. Obviously Mantle was the better of the two but how does that make what Maris did in 61 not impressive?

Regardless of who you hit in front off you still have to hit the Hr's and off course he won't be intentionally walked to get to a dangerous switch hitter that you cannot play a matchup game with. Maris hit his Homers off very good pitching he hit 36 of his homers off guys who won at least 10 games during the 1961 season. He faced the pressure of actually breaking the record and being hated by media and rooted against by many fans.

To end this I will quote Mickey himself who said, "what Roger did was the most impressive thing I ever saw on a baseball field"......

byergo
01-12-2010, 07:08 PM
OK, I'm a little bit impressed, but the guy got meat pitches all year long.

STLHAMMER32
01-12-2010, 07:28 PM
OK, I'm a little bit impressed, but the guy got meat pitches all year long.

meat pitches based on what? Very very little footage is around. He was walked unintentionally 94 times so there were plenty of balls that were not good. Also no one wanted to just give up Hr's and be linked to the records so he saw the best stuff from each pitcher he faced you would assume and he was not hitting them off of terrible pitchers either as a pointed out already.

3arod13
01-12-2010, 07:50 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AsOtVWnfE4oNVgssATeqCuIRvLYF?slug=ap-mcgwire-steroids&prov=ap&type=lgns

Agree! But give me a break! Cheating has gone on in baseball for a while now (all different types of cheating).

So if this is cheating and they shouldn't go in the Hall of Fame, then the other ways pitchers cheated and other players, etc., should also count when considered for the Hall of Fame.

Cheating is cheating!

Regards, Tony

allstarsplus
01-12-2010, 09:20 PM
This is becoming a media circus now. He admitted to the 'roids and now let's move on. It seems every time another guy talks about PEDs the sports channels and news shows become obsessed with it.

McGwire gave more info and specifics than any other ballplayer that I can remember except Canseco.

Is he being singled out and being made into the Steroid poster boy now?

Based on his college and Rookie production where he was 'roid free, I still feel he was one of the greatest HR hitters in the game if he had never touched steroids, but unfortunately we will never know what his career numbers would have been without PEDs.

A real shame....

allstarsplus
01-12-2010, 09:30 PM
Joe Morgan, a Hall of Famer and the board’s vice chairman, feels bad for players who didn’t use performance enhancers.



“Those guys are being penalized twice,” he said. “First, the guys who did steroids had all those great numbers, made all the money, and the guys who didn’t do steroids and just had good years, didn’t make as much money. So they get hurt there. Now at the end of their careers when you have to compare those numbers to the guys who did do steroids, they’re going to get hurt again as far as the Hall of Fame is concerned. So I can’t in my own mind excuse what happened, whatever the reason.”


I would go a step further. Guys like Albert Pujols, Frank Thomas and Adam Dunn and some others that never used steroids are studs of their era but they are penalized 3 times because there will always be some that still may think they may not be clean because after guys like ARod, many of us have learned not to trust any of these guys from the era.

perezfan
01-12-2010, 11:25 PM
I neither understand or agree with the argument that McGwire using steroids was only about maintaining his health and putting a halt to his deteriorating body. To say that it didn't help him hit home runs is deceptive and ignorant...

If his health deteriorated in its natural progression (without the aid of steroids), he would have hit dozens fewer home runs. A banged up/ailing body doesn't hit as many home runs as a fully functioning one. If not for the steroids, he would have been on a level playing field with all those who came before him (those who did not have any ability to extend their careers beyond a natural time frame).

If he bowed out when "Father Time" dictated, his career would have been more similar to a Dave Kingman, Boog Powell, Lee May, Frank Howard or Dave Parker (very good players, but none of whom merit HOF consideration).

Longevity is a big reason that many players have earned HOF honors, and this person clearly experienced an unfair advantage. His grandest records and "achievements" were all produced during the late-career time frame in question.

RJB44
01-13-2010, 12:36 AM
and someone will still be foolish enough to shell out $800.00 for one of Mac's game used caps!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Oakland-As-MARK-McGWIRE-Game-Used-CAP-w-Auto-PSA-DNA_W0QQitemZ390132798400QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item5ad5ba13c0

suave1477
01-13-2010, 09:46 AM
OK, I'm a little bit impressed, but the guy got meat pitches all year long.


I am not so sure about that. In a game against the Orioles in the 9th inning Hoyt Wlhelm one of the best knuckle ball pitchers ever was brought in specifically to face Maris so he wouldn't give him an easy pitch to hit. Rumor has it the Orioles manager even threatened Hoyt that if he gives up a Home Run to Maris he will be fined $5,000.

So believe me, they weren't just all lobbing the ball to Maris.

coxfan
01-13-2010, 07:47 PM
Regarding Maris, remember that the second-place Tigers had a 101-61 record, with the Yankees pulling away only toward the end of the season after sweeping a 3-game series with the Tigers. Nobody's going to go easy on Maris in such a race! They didn't intentionally walk him, but they did try to get him out.

Here in Columbia SC, I've been privileged to meet both Bobby Richardson and Jack Fisher, who threw Maris's 60th, and gotten the auto's of both. I overheard Richardson lamenting to someone that he had had some of Mantle's bats but had disposed of them long ago, never dreaming of their future value.

sox83cubs84
01-13-2010, 09:36 PM
Just curious...

Was Big Mac truly sorry that he took steroids? Or is he just sorry that he's been backed into such a corner that he's been forced to admit it?:(

Dave M.
Chicago area

STLHAMMER32
01-13-2010, 09:47 PM
Just curious...

Was Big Mac truly sorry that he took steroids? Or is he just sorry that he's been backed into such a corner that he's been forced to admit it?:(

Dave M.
Chicago area

That's a question only Mark can answer. I think he truly is sorry for letting people down though. He feels good to get it off his chest and now he is hoping to get back and be apart of the game. This guy has tons of knowledge when it comes to hitting and can't wait to get around the hitters and also take some BP himself.

coxfan
01-14-2010, 07:07 AM
He confessed his use privately to a Congressman before the congressional hearings, but the congressman couldn't get a promise of immunity for him from the Attorney General. ( see the article on MLB.com) Thus, he had little choice but to avoid questions at the hearing to avoid prosecution either for perjury or for use. Thus, I think he wanted to come clean long ago, and would've done so with immunity from prosecution.

To me, the real problem was with the Players' association, whose fierce fight to block testing allowed the culture to grow. Since the '94 strike that nearly killed the sport, they've been the big bully on the block; the owners were afraid of how far they'd go. Former Commisioner Fay Vincent, in his book, quoted a major PA official as saying he didn't care if he hurt the sport itself in his defense of the players. The irony is that the PA hurt its clean players in defense of the others.

suicide_squeeze
01-14-2010, 08:07 AM
He confessed his use privately to a Congressman before the congressional hearings, but the congressman couldn't get a promise of immunity for him from the Attorney General. ( see the article on MLB.com) Thus, he had little choice but to avoid questions at the hearing to avoid prosecution either for perjury or for use. Thus, I think he wanted to come clean long ago, and would've done so with immunity from prosecution.

To me, the real problem was with the Players' association, whose fierce fight to block testing allowed the culture to grow. Since the '94 strike that nearly killed the sport, they've been the big bully on the block; the owners were afraid of how far they'd go. Former Commisioner Fay Vincent, in his book, quoted a major PA official as saying he didn't care if he hurt the sport itself in his defense of the players. The irony is that the PA hurt its clean players in defense of the others.

coxfan,

Not only has the players association "bullied" the sport in making demands for and protecting their cheating members, but in doing so, they ironically destroyed the whole generation in hindsight by the associations very actions. One hell of a legacy left by the recently retired piece of dung, Donald Fehr.

As has been mentioned several times, the owners just "let it ride" because they were reaping the benefits of the resurgence in popularity of the game due to the home run show that endured from all the cheating. Bud Selig too....absent. They all abandoned the true history, respect, and governing duties they were responsible for to the game. The "show" was too much fun.

I think it's poetic justice. And I also believe there has been enough public scrutiny on the "suspected" players of this whole steroids era mess, that when it's all said and done, only "worthy" players will end up in the Hall, as it should be.

But you know, I do believe there are a very selective few Hall of Famers that have squeezed out from under the vise, and got elected into the Hall.....that actually did use for a portion of thier careers. Two come to mind, but I have no proof. The only question is.....if that fact eventually comes out, and is exposed (by Canseco who maybe knows for sure, or someone else...an ex-wife, girfriend, etc.), how will the other Hall of Famers react to it, and what will be done. This is all going to be a very interesting chapter of baseball history as it unfolds and is dealt with by the BBWAA as they place their future votes for the eligible Hall of Fame players. Moving on is important for today's current players, but maintaining the integrity of the record books is just as, if not much more, important to us true baseball historians of the greatest game ever invented.


Nice post, coxfan, I couldn't agree more.

Here's to hoping for a few more ejections this coming year to add to his legacy!!! ;)

cohibasmoker
01-14-2010, 08:24 AM
So I am trying to understand the McGuire incident. A poor kid in the inner City uses and/or sells illegal drugs. If he is caught, he is arrested. If the investigation shows that other people knew about the sales, they too are arrested for conspiracy.

But, if you are Mark McGuire and other "Star" baseball players and/or the Commissioner of baseball, it's OK.

Just my opinion - hopefully I didn't offend anyone.

Jim

whatupyos
01-14-2010, 01:05 PM
So I am trying to understand the McGuire incident. A poor kid in the inner City uses and/or sells illegal drugs. If he is caught, he is arrested. If the investigation shows that other people knew about the sales, they too are arrested for conspiracy.

But, if you are Mark McGuire and other "Star" baseball players and/or the Commissioner of baseball, it's OK.

Just my opinion - hopefully I didn't offend anyone.

Jim


Jim,

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm interested in criminal law and know the law pretty well, but I also could make mistakes. But, just becasue someone admits to use, you have to find evidence against it. Anyone can claim they used drugs but a claim alone won't get you arrested. I'm trying hard to understand your statment so forgive me if I'm misunderstanding. You mentioned if an inner city kid is caught he will go to jail....key word is caught. If the kid is caught you have evidence, i.e. drugs, pipe, papers, whatever. In McGwire's case you only have the confession that he used, no evidence.

I still think you have to have evidence that someone knew of another's use to get arrested. It has to be something solid. But I could be wrong. Generally the police only care about the top of the line suppliers not the casual recreational users, but again I say generally.

Aaron

STLHAMMER32
01-14-2010, 02:08 PM
So I am trying to understand the McGuire incident. A poor kid in the inner City uses and/or sells illegal drugs. If he is caught, he is arrested. If the investigation shows that other people knew about the sales, they too are arrested for conspiracy.

But, if you are Mark McGuire and other "Star" baseball players and/or the Commissioner of baseball, it's OK.

Just my opinion - hopefully I didn't offend anyone.

Jim


This is a bad example because often times when there is a federal investigation, as what took place with McGwire, they could care less about busting a few kids.

What the Feds want is the supplier, the big dealers that are worth the federal government to go after. The Feds are not going to get involved to bust a couple of kids with a few ounces of marijuana on them. The Local police department may be interested in something like that but the FBI will not come busting down doors for users.

suicide_squeeze
01-14-2010, 10:59 PM
I think Jim's point was that if you're rich here in America, and you have status, popularity, a prestigious job and are loved by many, you can fairly often get away with almost anything.

Sound familiar? Like maybe the life of a star athlete? You can obtain the best legal advice money can buy as evidenced by how Mark handled himself at the congressional hearings.

While on the other hand, if you're an inner city struggling youth.....you are nothing more than a feeder rat which the local police department recruits will use to "break in their teeth" on. No support, no money.....no mercy.

Yeah....it's unfair Jim.

STLHAMMER32
01-14-2010, 11:14 PM
I think Jim's point was that if you're rich here in America, and you have status, popularity, a prestigious job and are loved by many, you can fairly often get away with almost anything.

Sound familiar? Like maybe the life of a star athlete? You can obtain the best legal advice money can buy as evidenced by how Mark handled himself at the congressional hearings.

While on the other hand, if you're an inner city struggling youth.....you are nothing more than a feeder rat which the local police department recruits will use to "break in their teeth" on. No support, no money.....no mercy.

Yeah....it's unfair Jim.

If you are a star it can be used against you as well, when a "star" has things in their personal life the whole world knows. The feds did not care if it was McGwire or Joe Schmoe at the gym. There are hundreds connected that did not get persued not just the star atheletes. It all depends what the case is. If Mark was a big time supplier it would have been different. When faced with enough public outcry then it can change as well...for instance Mike Vick was used as an example.

STLHAMMER32
01-14-2010, 11:18 PM
Also another guy that stardom actually hurt was Plaxico Buress who was arrested and charged in the city that he had just won a superbowl in.

whatupyos
01-15-2010, 11:37 AM
Good points STL. I read an article that the FBI knew of McGwire's steroid use since 1993 but they were only concerned with the suppliers. They didn't have the resources to get everyone so they went after the big time suppliers which makes sense. But that's the risk when you do drugs, you never know the time or place but sooner or later, you're going to get busted.

I don't think it has to do with having a big time lawyer or money to get a big time lawyer as Steve hinted at with some professional athletes. McGwire was not granted immunity. Any lawyer, even a public defender would advise their client to take the 5th if their client wasn't granted immunity. I can't understand why Mark wasn't given immunity. Things would have been a whole lot different. Giambi had immunity, Bonds would have if he just admitted it. From what I've read anyway. I heard they were told to tell what they knew and nothing would happen.

Aaron

STLHAMMER32
01-15-2010, 05:42 PM
Good points STL. I read an article that the FBI knew of McGwire's steroid use since 1993 but they were only concerned with the suppliers. They didn't have the resources to get everyone so they went after the big time suppliers which makes sense. But that's the risk when you do drugs, you never know the time or place but sooner or later, you're going to get busted.

I don't think it has to do with having a big time lawyer or money to get a big time lawyer as Steve hinted at with some professional athletes. McGwire was not granted immunity. Any lawyer, even a public defender would advise their client to take the 5th if their client wasn't granted immunity. I can't understand why Mark wasn't given immunity. Things would have been a whole lot different. Giambi had immunity, Bonds would have if he just admitted it. From what I've read anyway. I heard they were told to tell what they knew and nothing would happen.

Aaron

Having the media cover everything makes it tough to give any star athlete a free pass on anything. Press conferences are held to discuss minor issues, if it was a regular Joe nobody would even care. These guys make tons of money and part of the exposure is the price of fame but these guys are human and make mistakes too. The only difference is when they mess up their lives are scrutinized down to every tiny detail.

McGwire should have been granted immunity because he was ready to talk and even admitted use in private meetings. These guys questioning him knew that he was obviously not going to impicate himself and knew that he was not granted immunity.

McGwire needs to just say its impossible to tell how much steroids helped or hurt me. Because it is! Maybe it led to his problems with joints later in his career maybe it didnt't. Maybe it helped him hit another 5 hr's in 98 maybe it didn't. Who knows?

Here is how I look at Mac saying steroids did not help him...It would be worse for him to say they made the biggest difference, I was healthy and it gave me huge strength benefits, helped me see and hit a baseball...It made me be the best power hitter in the world, without them I wouldn't be half the player...what kid listening is going to think "oh steroids are bad"...here is a guy in his late 40's still healthy hitting balls out 20 in a row in batting practice according to Brendan Ryan and Schumaker. If a kid is deciding whether or not to use based on if Mac said that he would probably choose to use..

Now with McGwire actually saying I could still have been the player I was without them, they did not make me a better baseball just caused me alot of guilt because I knew they were illegal and now I have to dissapointed friends and family. Much better message for a kid to hear in my opinion.