Why did this Grace All Star Jersey sell for so much?

[bagbig]

I know the auction was 10 months ago, but curious to hear thoughts.....

https://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=47499&aucsearch=markgrace&AucListType=closed&TitleDesc=0&period=

[tjm5711]

Grace didn't appear in a whole lot of All Star games playing all those years in the shadow of Will Clark and company. So an All Star jersey of his commands some premium. Grace was and still is an extremely popular Cubs Player. Cub fans(like me lol) are many, and we all have long memories. There is a huge demand for Cubs memorabilia being that it's a huge market and the "lovable-losers" label they have. Plus you never know what happens in these auctions. It only takes one guy going crazy to drive a price up. But I agree with you. $2000ish would be more like it for this.

[suicide_squeeze]

But I agree with you. $2000ish would be more like it for this.


I have noticed quite a few members over the last few months have expressed their consternation over what some collectors have paid for certain items.

How can you discount the "passion" ingredient of collecting? You guys need to understand, when considering the "value" of any particular collectible that is a one of a kind, once you set aside the dollar possibilities in regard to paying for it.......anything goes.

I would argue if you collect based on prices paid for items, then you are merely a participator of picking up items that interest you for cheap prices, and not a true collector. "True" collectors view the price as a road block for getting what they are truly passionate about. They drive around them any way they can.

Two collectors with a passion for one item can drive the price up to thin-air levels, while others look at it and scratch their heads. Not because they don't have the money and can't understand how someone could "blow" that much on "that" item......but because they don't understand the passion element of the collector who wants that item.

Personally speaking, when I have lost an item I went after wholeheartedly because it passed the level of my current financial means to pay for it, I was of course disappointed. But never once did I ever say "Nahhh....I'm out because it's not worth that". If it's game used, and you want it, and it fits into that area of "passion" you have as a collector, the dollar cost isn't an issue. Unless of course you can't pay for it. That minor little detail is the one hurdle to everything in life. It is THE limiting factor to all we strive for.

tjm5711......We are not talking about a Mitchell & Ness retail jersey signed at a private signing. That is something you could place a value on, based on current market conditions. But a game used All-Star worn jersey (which appears at quick glance to easily pass the "authentic" test, also adding tremendous value to it) from a popular Cub player who excelled during an era tarnished with steroids while being extremely evident he was not one who participated in that mess. Add to that quite a few baseball collectors who appreciate a throw-back style guy who played the game right, the type who appeals to the historians of the game.....this guy has some serious fans out there.

It's all good in the collecting world. We all have our own opinions. But you have to accept the passion element, or you're missing the boat.

[tjm5711]

I have noticed quite a few members over the last few months have expressed their consternation over what some collectors have paid for certain items.

How can you discount the "passion" ingredient of collecting? You guys need to understand, when considering the "value" of any particular collectible that is a one of a kind, once you set aside the dollar possibilities in regard to paying for it.......anything goes.

I would argue if you collect based on prices paid for items, then you are merely a participator of picking up items that interest you for cheap prices, and not a true collector. "True" collectors view the price as a road block for getting what they are truly passionate about. They drive around them any way they can.

Two collectors with a passion for one item can drive the price up to thin-air levels, while others look at it and scratch their heads. Not because they don't have the money and can't understand how someone could "blow" that much on "that" item......but because they don't understand the passion element of the collector who wants that item.

Personally speaking, when I have lost an item I went after wholeheartedly because it passed the level of my current financial means to pay for it, I was of course disappointed. But never once did I ever say "Nahhh....I'm out because it's not worth that". If it's game used, and you want it, and it fits into that area of "passion" you have as a collector, the dollar cost isn't an issue. Unless of course you can't pay for it. That minor little detail is the one hurdle to everything in life. It is THE limiting factor to all we strive for.

tjm5711......We are not talking about a Mitchell & Ness retail jersey signed at a private signing. That is something you could place a value on, based on current market conditions. But a game used All-Star worn jersey (which appears at quick glance to easily pass the "authentic" test, also adding tremendous value to it) from a popular Cub player who excelled during an era tarnished with steroids while being extremely evident he was not one who participated in that mess. Add to that quite a few baseball collectors who appreciate a throw-back style guy who played the game right, the type who appeals to the historians of the game.....this guy has some serious fans out there.

It's all good in the collecting world. We all have our own opinions. But you have to accept the passion element, or you're missing the boat.



I get your point, and it's a unique and certainly vaild opinion. And I could see the "passion" element figuring in to an item occasionally but people assess different values to the same item. Mark Grace was my favorite player growing up, and I have seen this item before. I would pay the $3500 for it possibly. And I have on occasion blown big bucks in your "passion" element. My $2,000 ballpark figure is what I think would be a fair price for this item. Just my opinion, and mine alone. And since there is no standard price guide for items like this. So mine and anyone else's reasonable assessment should be noted without criticism.

[frikativ54]

I have noticed quite a few members over the last few months have expressed their consternation over what some collectors have paid for certain items.

I think consternation is too strong a word here. Perhaps surprise or shock would be more appropriate.


How can you discount the "passion" ingredient of collecting? You guys need to understand, when considering the "value" of any particular collectible that is a one of a kind, once you set aside the dollar possibilities in regard to paying for it.......anything goes.

I would dispute your premise that game-used items are one of a kind. While each item will have its particular markings from the particular circumstances of its use, there are often multiples of the same item available, whether they be jerseys, bats, hats, helmets, etc. The same is the case with something like a painting, but there is often a ballpark price range. Unfortunately, this kind of logic is used to justify those who would command exorbitant prices for their items, because they are "the only one of their kind", even though there are several other similar items out there. It's kind of like card companies making a few variations on the same card and calling every one a 1/1.


I would argue if you collect based on prices paid for items, then you are merely a participator of picking up items that interest you for cheap prices, and not a true collector. "True" collectors view the price as a road block for getting what they are truly passionate about. They drive around them any way they can.

Who are you to define who is a true collector? Honestly, I just got done picking up $90+ of medication at my local pharmacy. I would have loved to have spent that money on game-used memorabilia, but I simply cannot, because I don't have deep pockets. Now, imagine if I didn't have insurance. That same medication would have cost over $500.

If I would have had to pay $500 to the pharmacy, would I have been any less of a collector, because I passed up eBay auctions because they were out of my price range? I don't think so. People have different priorities as to what they do with their money. And if the cost is prohibitive, that says nothing about their love of collecting.


Two collectors with a passion for one item can drive the price up to thin-air levels, while others look at it and scratch their heads. Not because they don't have the money and can't understand how someone could "blow" that much on "that" item......but because they don't understand the passion element of the collector who wants that item.

Passion and finances are two different things. I honestly think that most people understand the passion that goes into game-used memorabilia collecting. The issue is what our various priorities and lots are in life. You cannot say that because someone owns less than you do or simply doesn't have the means to buy the same amount of memorabilia, that that person doesn't have the passion of a collector. Matter of fact, the most passionate person about memorabilia may only own a few items that cost a total of less than $1,000, because they simply don't have the money.


Personally speaking, when I have lost an item I went after wholeheartedly because it passed the level of my current financial means to pay for it, I was of course disappointed. But never once did I ever say "Nahhh....I'm out because it's not worth that". If it's game used, and you want it, and it fits into that area of "passion" you have as a collector, the dollar cost isn't an issue. Unless of course you can't pay for it. That minor little detail is the one hurdle to everything in life. It is THE limiting factor to all we strive for.(emphasis mine)

The two statements in bold above seem quite contradictory. I have a passion for many $3,000 game used fielder's gloves. Matter of fact, I would love to have a whole collection full of beaten up mitts used by major leaguers. But guess what, I can't afford to have that kind of a collection. Does this mean I love gloves any less than someone who has that money? Not at all. People just have different financial circumstances than you do, Steve, and the amount of stuff you own is not the determining factor in your passion for collecting. In sum, the stuff you own does not necessarily make you a more passionate collector.

[tjm5711]

LES. very well said and broken down. I couldn't have come close to duplicating those great points you made. I am a very passionate collector, and have been very fortunate. I have built up a huge collection in just a handful of years by one simple premise:

If it's an authentic and rare item; BUY IT ! But be wary of the item's true market value. And don't pay much over the monetary value received if you had to sell it.

I have built my collection by hammering out side deals with sellers on Ebay. Finding a bottom line underneath the "Mark-Up Umbrella" I've gotten lucky with some big Ebay Auctions, and you know what ? Half of the fun has been working those deals out. Negotiating trades that eliminate extra items for me, enhancing another collectors display, along with mine.

I just refuse to pay hugely inflated prices for items. And yes, there is always a common" Ball Park/Market Price" for anything. And anytime I view an item way above this, I will not hesitate to point it out !

[suicide_squeeze]

I think consternation is too strong a word here. Perhaps surprise or shock would be more appropriate.



I would dispute your premise that game-used items are one of a kind. While each item will have its particular markings from the particular circumstances of its use, there are often multiples of the same item available, whether they be jerseys, bats, hats, helmets, etc. The same is the case with something like a painting, but there is often a ballpark price range. Unfortunately, this kind of logic is used to justify those who would command exorbitant prices for their items, because they are "the only one of their kind", even though there are several other similar items out there. It's kind of like card companies making a few variations on the same card and calling every one a 1/1.



Who are you to define who is a true collector? Honestly, I just got done picking up $90+ of medication at my local pharmacy. I would have loved to have spent that money on game-used memorabilia, but I simply cannot, because I don't have deep pockets. Now, imagine if I didn't have insurance. That same medication would have cost over $500.

If I would have had to pay $500 to the pharmacy, would I have been any less of a collector, because I passed up eBay auctions because they were out of my price range? I don't think so. People have different priorities as to what they do with their money. And if the cost is prohibitive, that says nothing about their love of collecting.



Passion and finances are two different things. I honestly think that most people understand the passion that goes into game-used memorabilia collecting. The issue is what our various priorities and lots are in life. You cannot say that because someone owns less than you do or simply doesn't have the means to buy the same amount of memorabilia, that that person doesn't have the passion of a collector. Matter of fact, the most passionate person about memorabilia may only own a few items that cost a total of less than $1,000, because they simply don't have the money.



The two statements in bold above seem quite contradictory. I have a passion for many $3,000 game used fielder's gloves. Matter of fact, I would love to have a whole collection full of beaten up mitts used by major leaguers. But guess what, I can't afford to have that kind of a collection. Does this mean I love gloves any less than someone who has that money? Not at all. People just have different financial circumstances than you do, Steve, and the amount of stuff you own is not the determining factor in your passion for collecting. In sum, the stuff you own does not necessarily make you a more passionate collector.


Les,

It's so nice to have you back on my ass again!!! :D

You are missing the point of what I was saying throughout the whole post.

Of COURSE "money" and the amount of limits everything we do. I did not say it wasn't a factor in everyone's collections. In fact, I said it was the one mitigating limiting factor in everything we strive for in our lives, Les.

What I was referring to is that when one sees an item that just ended in an auction that went for what they view as an extremely high price..... take into consideration the passion.

No one's collection, dollar value of it, or amount (items, or otherwise) is the judging factor of a collector's passion. I never said anything remotely close to that, and if you read it that way, you missed the point I was making.

On the other hand, if a self-proclaimed "collector" is only concerned about the level of the price something they may want is going for.....then I stand by my prior statement. They, IMO, are not a true collector. They are just a side note to the true collecting community that are looking to pick up something for a "steal" so they can feel good about it. They have let the overriding dollar value of an item dictate what it is they collect. That is the big difference. That doesn't include the obvious all-mighty limiter of having the funds to pay for it at all. Obviously if you don't have the money, you can't buy it. My argument is if you DO have the money, but WON'T buy it because you are only looking at the dollar value it has reached.....then you aren't passionate about the item. I hope you can see the difference.

Although there is nothing wrong with feeling good about getting something for what you feel is a good price, it really shouldn't be THE deciding factor of what you obtain in your collection, unless, of course, you simply don't have the means to pay for that item. And we've all been there a zillion times over.

[suicide_squeeze]

LES. very well said and broken down. I couldn't have come close to duplicating those great points you made. I am a very passionate collector, and have been very fortunate. I have built up a huge collection in just a handful of years by one simple premise:

If it's an authentic and rare item; BUY IT ! But be wary of the item's true market value. And don't pay much over the monetary value received if you had to sell it.

I have built my collection by hammering out side deals with sellers on Ebay. Finding a bottom line underneath the "Mark-Up Umbrella" I've gotten lucky with some big Ebay Auctions, and you know what ? Half of the fun has been working those deals out. Negotiating trades that eliminate extra items for me, enhancing another collectors display, along with mine.

I just refuse to pay hugely inflated prices for items. And yes, there is always a common" Ball Park/Market Price" for anything. And anytime I view an item way above this, I will not hesitate to point it out !


tjm5711,

Your self-described process of your collecting is shared by many. It's a responsible approach, and one that could be recommended as a general theory to anyone collecting anything. It's sound common sense.

That said, I would suggest you read (below) my response to frikativ. You are falling into the same misunderstood trap in the meaning of my post.

I am simply saying......If it went for a lot more than most would perceive it should have, there is obviously two or more collectors who felt passionate about the item (assuming no shill bidding was going on with one passionate collector), and the dollars, which may be your "God" in theory and overriding factor in finalizing a decision on any of your acquisitions, was not a consideration.

Capisce?

[tjm5711]

tjm5711,

Your self-described process of your collecting is shared by many. It's a responsible approach, and one that could be recommended as a general theory to anyone collecting anything. It's sound common sense.

That said, I would suggest you read (below) my response to frikativ. You are falling into the same misunderstood trap in the meaning of my post.

I am simply saying......If it went for a lot more than most would perceive it should have, there is obviously two or more collectors who felt passionate about the item (assuming no shill bidding was going on with one passionate collector), and the dollars, which may be your "God" in theory and overriding factor in finalizing a decision on any of your acquisitions, was not a consideration.

Capisce?


Very simply Les referred to everything having a "Common Market Value" and being worth a ballpark dollar value that most parties involved can agree on. When an item goes for an amount way above what that CMV is, that's the issue. And to not use Dollar Value as a major element in decison making on a purchase is in my opinion like driving a car with no steering wheel !

[frikativ54]

Very simply Les referred to everything having a "Common Market Value" and being worth a ballpark dollar value that most parties involved can agree on. When an item goes for an amount way above what that CMV is, that's the issue. And to not use Dollar Value as a major element in decison making on a purchase is in my opinion like driving a car with no steering wheel !

That's exactly how I feel. When I started out collecting, I didn't know how much things were worth, and so got burned a few times on items from a questionable source. However, knowing what I do now, I set a dollar amount in my mind that something is worth to me. Then, I try to come to a deal with the seller. If it doesn't work out, then so be it. My status as a passionate collector is not going to be ruined, or my ego shattered, because I cannot own a certain piece of used equipment. And I am afraid that too often in this business (hobby is too generous a word) that our personal worth is measured in terms of the number of jerseys we have.

Steve, you talk about passion, but there has to be rational calculation in there as well. We are not determined by our passions alone, and we would be unwise if we weighed our monetary decisions on what we are dying to have. Because there are often other things that take priority, especially when they have to do with our careers, our health, and whatever other expenditures we have. For instance, there is some game-used stuff I would like to have now, but my rational mind says to me that I need camera equipment, because I can make money on my photography. In life, I feel that reason is often a better measure of things than our passion. That may be where we disagree...

[NYCrulesU]

I will put it as simply as I can. Real talk.


I know what I am looking for, to a "T". If I find such an item, I determine what I am willing to pay for it. If I get it for that price or less, great! If the seller wants more and won't budge, or wants more than I am willing to pay or even more than I can afford? I simply move on. There's always another item, from another seller somewhere. This is a simple concept that I learned at the age of 7. 30 something years later, it still works ;) There is NO that great that could make me want to break the bank or feel horrible about buying. Either I pay a reasonable price (set by me, the market, polling other collectors) or I just don't buy it.

That's how I collect on a budget. Now, if you have few hunred thousand to throw around and price doesn't even concern you, then by all means go right ahead. It's your money and you are free to spend it how you choose. Nobody here has the right to tell someone else how to spend their money or that they are idiots for paying a certain amount. Comment like that just reek of insecurity, jealousy and arrogance.

[tjm5711]

That's exactly how I feel. When I started out collecting, I didn't know how much things were worth, and so got burned a few times on items from a questionable source. However, knowing what I do now, I set a dollar amount in my mind that something is worth to me. Then, I try to come to a deal with the seller. If it doesn't work out, then so be it. My status as a passionate collector is not going to be ruined, or my ego shattered, because I cannot own a certain piece of used equipment. And I am afraid that too often in this business (hobby is too generous a word) that our personal worth is measured in terms of the number of jerseys we have.

Steve, you talk about passion, but there has to be rational calculation in there as well. We are not determined by our passions alone, and we would be unwise if we weighed our monetary decisions on what we are dying to have. Because there are often other things that take priority, especially when they have to do with our careers, our health, and whatever other expenditures we have. For instance, there is some game-used stuff I would like to have now, but my rational mind says to me that I need camera equipment, because I can make money on my photography. In life, I feel that reason is often a better measure of things than our passion. That may be where we disagree...



"RATIONAL" being the key word here. It's just not rational to pay two or three times what somethings Market Value is. Especially in this case where Grace's career is long over, and he realistically will not make the Hall of Fame. I guess you can argue it's worth $3500. But that's the only real argument here.

As far as the sky being the limit on what a collector will pay for something? Well, that's just not rational in my mind. To me Cost must be close to value. And as far as how much someone has, or how much they are willing to pay being a gauge of their passion as a collector. Well, that's just an inaccurate measurement in my opinion.

[bagbig]

My reason for this thread was to get your opinions on what you think this jersey is worth. I did not want this huge debate- although I do disagree with Steve's theory about passion. You should have unlimited passion for your family and friends, not enough passion to spend money you can't afford on a jersey. Thanks Tim for your opinion on the value, I even think your level seems very high.

[tjm5711]

My reason for this thread was to get your opinions on what you think this jersey is worth. I did not want this huge debate- although I do disagree with Steve's theory about passion. You should have unlimited passion for your family and friends, not enough passion to spend money you can't afford on a jersey. Thanks Tim for your opinion on the value, I even think your level seems very high.



The only reason I put a 2K price tag on it is because Grace was(and still is) a very popular Cubs player who didn't make many All Star Games. But sure, I could see this being worth well under 2K.

Let's face it, the only people who like these inflated prices are dealers and Auction Houses. If we as collectors refused to pay(and bid on) some of these silly prices, this hobby would be much more affordable.

[kudu]

Another aspect to look at here is where these players played(ie Mark Grace, Mark Sanchez etc). Chicago is a big city with a lot of people who make lotsa money and are die hard fans. New York is the same. I can see why jerseys like Grace and Sanchez go for so much money when the players play in big city markets. Lets say Mark Grace played for Kansas City most of his career. You think that jersey is gonna be sold for $3000+? No way.

[jppopma]

FAN FAVORITE! Short and simple, Grace is still a big pull in Chicago. For those who question the power of a fan favorite, go to a single A baseball game when they have a jersey auction. You will get to see a bunch of joes who will never see the bigs...and the jerseys will go upwards of $1,000 for some. I guess everyone has their reasons for collecting and some follow their hearts more than their wallets.

[Lokee]

Nice jersey but did Grace even get an at bat or even play in the game ?

According to Baseball Almanac he had no at bats.

Crazy amount of money in my opinion. HOWEVER iam not a Grace fan either.

[STLHAMMER32]

FAN FAVORITE! Short and simple, Grace is still a big pull in Chicago. For those who question the power of a fan favorite, go to a single A baseball game when they have a jersey auction. You will get to see a bunch of joes who will never see the bigs...and the jerseys will go upwards of $1,000 for some. I guess everyone has their reasons for collecting and some follow their hearts more than their wallets.


I think there are niche collectors that drive the price up on these items more than anything. I saw a Glenallen Hill world series bat sell for $500 on ebay..5x more than any other bat of his I have ever seen. Couple of collectors most likely are putting together a 2000 world series team bat collection or something and did not care about actual value because they were completing a set of some kind. We can all think of instances where something went for way more....

Fan favorites like Willie McGee and Grace will always get more than their stats dictate but I think usually when you see certain items far exceed other prices for the same player it is usually due to niche item that someone is looking to get at any cost.

[karamaxjoe]

You guys are all forgetting that the certain auction house was probably pushing that auction to a level they were comfortable with.

Taken right from the auction rules: AMI reserves the right to place a bid on any Lot on behalf of the seller up to the amount of the reserve, if any.

The buyer may have placed a large max bid and paid the price.:rolleyes:

[tjm5711]

You guys are all forgetting that the certain auction house was probably pushing that auction to a level they were comfortable with.

Taken right from the auction rules: AMI reserves the right to place a bid on any Lot on behalf of the seller up to the amount of the reserve, if any.

The buyer may have placed a large max bid and paid the price.:rolleyes:



Thanks for that point. It's a very good one, and probably what happened.

[BIGSTIG]

The winner of this jersey is a friend of mine. He is a BIG Grace fan, and I remember when he saw this he said he will pay X amount of dollars for it, and he won it below what he mentioned willing to spend, so in his mind he got a deal. As for us to place a value on it, something is only worth what one is willing to pay for it. Heck a normal Grace 90's jersey would sell for 2K at auction. Obviously someone else thought it was worth around the same as there was an underbidder. We have all paid dearly for an item that we REALLY wanted. This is a one of a kind item. This jersey was worn in an All-Star game, and no he did not get an at bat, but Grace only played in 3 All star games. So to get a 100% authentic Grace all-star gamer is truly RARE. If I had the $$ I would have given my buddy a run for his money on this.

[suicide_squeeze]

Thanks for that point. It's a very good one, and probably what happened.

Yeah, one that I mentioned on post number 8 of this thread (in regards to your comment above referring to a max bid mentioned by karamaxjoe.....I stated "assuming there was no shill bidding going on with one passionate collector", that would be one explanation of the price that was reached).

But once again, tjm5711, you choose not to absorb what the forum will offer. Mentioning fans of a popular player, with a passion to own a one-of-kind piece (which frik jumped all over as being nonsense.....c'mon les!! ;) ), as a likely reason it went to such a value.....the whole subject of this thread......and the truth comes out.

A passionate Mark Grace fan in fact paid less than he had planned to spend to pick up a one-of-a-kind rare Mark Grace game used item.
Congrats to that true collector, give him my best, BIGSTIG.

[STLHAMMER32]

I am glad to hear that it went to a Grace fan. It's an extremely unique item and one that you would be hard pressed to find for sale again. If you collect a certain player it's items like this that make you get excited and it's the thought of finding that specific item that keeps us all searching!

[tjm5711]

Yeah, one that I mentioned on post number 8 of this thread (in regards to your comment above referring to a max bid mentioned by karamaxjoe.....I stated "assuming there was no shill bidding going on with one passionate collector", that would be one explanation of the price that was reached).

But once again, tjm5711, you choose not to absorb what the forum will offer. Mentioning fans of a popular player, with a passion to own a one-of-kind piece (which frik jumped all over as being nonsense.....c'mon les!! ;) ), as a likely reason it went to such a value.....the whole subject of this thread......and the truth comes out.

A passionate Mark Grace fan in fact paid less than he had planned to spend to pick up a one-of-a-kind rare Mark Grace game used item.
Congrats to that true collector, give him my best, BIGSTIG.


You continue to go from thread to thread contradicting any little thing I say ! Who are you to determine who a real collector is. Give up your silly little tirade here and the other thread and once again: LEAVE ME ALONE ! Stop finding every little thing you can in my posts to pick a part and attempt to contradict.

Take your passion theories and everything else and go bother somebody else. You're continued harassment of me will no longer be tolerated. I have already turned this matter over to the moderators. So, do us all a favor, and CUT IT OUT !!!!!!!!!!!!

[BIGSTIG]

C'mon guys no reason to derail this post. The question was asked as to why it went so high. I think that it was answered. Congrats to my buddy for adding a truly unique piece to his collection. End of story.