GAME USED BAT RECORDS for $15

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Has anyone else seen this?

eBay Item #140368910227 (http://cgi.ebay.com/PRO-MODEL-GAME-USED-BAT-RECORDS-CHICAGO-CUBS-WHITE-SOX_W0QQitemZ140368910227QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item20aea39793)

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Here are the other items being sold by the seller.

http://shop.ebay.com/mlbbatman/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

[thomecollector]

BMH, Any thoughts ??

[karamaxjoe]

I saw these and wondered who would be making the profits from this. Doesn't LS own the records? Maybe Mike Specht can answer this. Whoever is making the profits has a nice little customer base on this forum.

[karamaxjoe]

Dave Bushing from MEARS weighed in on this subject on the MEARS site:

I have recently had emails regarding the issue of selling H&B bat records. For the record, when I first received permission to come to Louisville and make copies, it was with MR. Bill Williams and his terms were that I would never publish or sell the information. I could and did supply individual bat shipping information to anyone who asked about a specific record, free of charge. I have done this for anyone emailing me for information since acquiring these records over ten years ago and will continue to do so to anyone interested in a specific record or player. I am not privy to any deals anyone else currently holding copies of these records as to what they can or cannot do with these records. My deal with Bill, as far as I am concerned and he is now retired, still holds. I have never sold nor published any complete record copies and will not do so unless instructed by them. If others have negotiated a different deal that allows publication or sale of shipping records, that is between them and Louisville Slugger and as such, I have no comment on what they may do. I will, as always, be more than happy to look up a record for you free of charge and we do have hundreds of records on common players besides the Hall of Famers. If you need that information, feel free to write but we will not supply complete records for sale or free. David Bushing

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Dave Bushing from MEARS weighed in on this subject on the MEARS site:

I have recently had emails regarding the issue of selling H&B bat records. For the record, when I first received permission to come to Louisville and make copies, it was with MR. Bill Williams and his terms were that I would never publish or sell the information. I could and did supply individual bat shipping information to anyone who asked about a specific record, free of charge. I have done this for anyone emailing me for information since acquiring these records over ten years ago and will continue to do so to anyone interested in a specific record or player. I am not privy to any deals anyone else currently holding copies of these records as to what they can or cannot do with these records. My deal with Bill, as far as I am concerned and he is now retired, still holds. I have never sold nor published any complete record copies and will not do so unless instructed by them. If others have negotiated a different deal that allows publication or sale of shipping records, that is between them and Louisville Slugger and as such, I have no comment on what they may do. I will, as always, be more than happy to look up a record for you free of charge and we do have hundreds of records on common players besides the Hall of Famers. If you need that information, feel free to write but we will not supply complete records for sale or free. David Bushing

Interesting!

[MSpecht]

I agree with Dave, and what he says is basically true. When full access to the H & B records was initially given to Vince Malta, Bill Riddell and myself following the publication of BATS in 1995, the condition set forth by Mr. Bill Williams was that the information could be provided to collectors, however the records could not be copied in the H & B format (i.e. copies of the pre 1931 ledgers, the 1031-1981 handwritten bat cards, or the 1981-to-present computer print-outs. I am sure the same request / requirement was made to Dave as he says. To my knowledge, that condition has not been violated by offering xerox'ed copies of the actual records to the public by anyone, including MEARS (Dave and Troy), PSA/DNA (John and Vince), or Jim Caravello or myself here on GUU.

Now, the difficult part of the equation is that Dave says that he (and , presumanly, everyone else given the priveledge of accessing the records) was never to sell the information. That is true insofar as it pertains to selling the information in the H & B format in which it was received. Again, as mentioned above, I have not seen evidence that anyone has violated that agreement. However, clearly, the records are being sold by all of the above people in some manner. The use of the records is the cornerstand of the authentication process for any H & B Louisville Slugger. Everytime that the records are used to assist in authenticating a bat, and the specific shipping dates, bat specifications, etc are quoted from the H & B records in a LOA, whether it is from MEARS (Dave and Troy), PSA/DNA (John and Vince) , or BATS (Mike) , the information is indeed being sold. BUT it is not being sold in the H & B format pursuant to Mr Williams' condition. As an example, look at Vince's recent book--- the literally hundtreds and hundreds of hours Vince and others put into that book would have been reduced by probably 75 per cent if each player's reciords could have just been copied / xeroxed instead of having had to been transcribed into the chart format that Vince devised and that is seen in the book. In accordance with the agreement with Bill Williams, that was not done.

Also, as Dave points out, everyone mentioned above has been very generous in researching and giving out information contained in the H & B records upon request. The first wholescale flow of information occurred right here on GUU (look at the early posts by Jim Caravello and I). John at PSA/DNA and Dave and Troy (and Dave Grob) at MEARS have also responded freely with information. But again, the records also provide the cornerstone of H & B authentications by all three entities that provide substancial 'for profit" business to their endeavors.

As far as the auctions on ebay, it is obvious that there will be no new book forthcoming that will contain the records of another 300 to 400 star players in any format similar to that found in Vince's book. Therefore, after numerous requests, Ebay seemed like an easy way to get information out to a broad pool of collectors who basically are very uninformed about collecting game used bats and who frequently pruchase something other that what they believe they are purchasing. The Buy It Now price on Ebay is based on the typical half-hour of research necessary to respond to a question about a single bat and prepare a Certificate of Authenticity based on the H & B records. And, to be completely transparent, I have also been asked if a person could buy a player's complete ordering records. I have responded that yes they could, BUT the price is quoted at $45.00 per player, based on the average amount of time, three to four hours, that it takes to transcribe a player's H & B records into a chart format as seen in Vince's book --- no player's records are sold in the original H & B format, as per the original agreement with Bill Williams. Why provide this information ? Basically, to get the information on non-HOF players into collectors' hands so they can avoid getting ripped off, just as Vince did with Hall of Fame players. Why me ? Well, basically, as contrasted to PSA/DNA and MEARS, I do not depend on bat authentication for my livlihood, and am willing to put the time in to provide this service at a nominal fee (in fact, a WAY nominal fee) that, frankly, would not be worth the other guys' time.

Any questions, feel free to ask. One more thing, I would be remiss if I did not mention the current state of the game used collecting hobby as it pertains to professional model baseball bats as compared to just 4 or 5 years ago. The efforts of everyone involved in the authentication process has raised the knowledge base of all serious collectors to levels unthought of just five years ago. that would include Vince Malta, John Taube, Dave Bushing, Troy Kinunen, Dave Grob, Jim Caravello, and also Eric and Chris for providing the GUU forum for social interaction. Also, there are many niche experts who also generously give of their time and knowledge to help others---I am going to forget many, but off the top of my head thanks to Jeff Scott, Marcus Sevier, Brett Herman, Carly Medina, and many more. Finally, a huge Thanks to Brian Hillerich, who despite a heavy schedule, takes the time to answer questions about H & B manufacturing processes, modern players records, and anything else he is asked.

Good Luck in future collecting, Happy Holidays, and a Peaceful 2010.

Mike jackitout7@aol.com

[karamaxjoe]

Thanks for the clarification Mike. I've always appreciated the service you guys provide and hope it continues. Since you provided me with the order records for Bill Buckner, my comfort level in buying his bats has been much better.

I'm just surprised some of the more vocal forum members didn't jump all over this. I'm sure you'll agree, transparency can be a big thing around here. It must be the Christmas spirit that let this topic fly under the radar.;)

[metsbats]

I think this is a great alternative to spending $100- $500 (as Mike points out) to get written confirmation on whether your bat was ordered by the player (and order numbers) during the particular labeling period.

One of the reasons I've not authenticated bats in my collection during the years is the cost of authentication and the risk having to ship an expensive rare bat to an authenticator.

It's important to note that a $100-$500 authentication also include analysis of game use, wear, condition, player characteristics, etc of the bat in addition to pnly an order confirmation. (no specific numbers are given)

But for only $15 to get this confirmation letter and the level of detail Mike has put into it to me is worth the investment and a great alternative to a full service authenticator (and full service fees!)

All the best Mike and thanks for offering this service!

[MSpecht]

Hi David,

You are correct--- for H & B / Louisville Slugger bats, documentation in the player's records is only the first step in a full authentication that analyzes individual players game use characteristics and all. However, taking that first step to find out if a bat appears in a player's records is one of the most important, if not the most important, pieces of information a collector can obtain and, for many bats, this information provides collectors with a comfort level that a specific bat was "manufactured for the personal professional use of " a specific player.

The value of that information is easy to demonstrate. For example, two bats submitted for the last GUU auction -- Rickey Henderson and Fred Lynn -- did not, upon examination, appear in the players H & B records. In each case, after a detailed examination of each players complete career ordering records, the bats were presumed to be team index bats, and were described as such. Neither received a bid. Now, if either of those two bats would have been listed on Ebay as a Henderson or Lynn 'game used bat' , chances are very good that someone would have spent several hundred dollars on each bat, only to find out later, maybe much later, that the chance that either bat was ever in the hands of Henderson or Lynn was very very slim-to-none.

Mike jackitout7@aol.com