Scoreboard Triple Crown

[kingjammy24]

a triumvirate of scoreboard gems all being sold as gamers from the same seller:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250514919522

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250514919870

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250514920521

the mays and jackson both have 1990-91 style rawlings tags with 1989 strip tags, just like scoreboard's 1989 bo jackson home issue.

rudy.

[sox83cubs84]

Rudy;

Add to it that the 4-digit years in the Mays and Reggie strip tags are not consistent with known gamers from both teams in 1989.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[kingjammy24]

Rudy;

Add to it that the 4-digit years in the Mays and Reggie strip tags are not consistent with known gamers from both teams in 1989.

Dave M.
Chicago area

in 1990, the A's seemed to use 2 different styles of tagging. one style was the typical rawlings setup with the flag tag and the other style added a strip tag in the format: "1 90" or "2 90". the shirts that had the strip tags often lacked flag tags.

however, i've never seen any strip tags used on 1989 A's gamers. all i've ever seen on them were the standard rawlings tag with flag tag. my point being that it may not simply be the format that's incorrect but the entire presence of a strip tag on a 1989 A's shirt.

rudy.

[sox83cubs84]

Rudy:

Right offhand, I can't think of any examples I can recall that would contradict your belief on 1989 A's and strip tags.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[worldchamps]

interesting....i knew of the Nolan and Bo jackson...didnt know Willie Mays was in this group too

check out this game worn "coaches" willie mays that just ended....seems to me to be the same type jersey

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260487044710&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[kingjammy24]

interesting....i knew of the Nolan and Bo jackson...didnt know Willie Mays was in this group too

check out this game worn "coaches" willie mays that just ended....seems to me to be the same type jersey

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260487044710&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

mays and will clark. bo and nolan. canseco and gregg jeffries. those are the ones that immediately come to mind. not sure if there were others. rickey henderson would've been a logical choice given what a premier player he was around that 1989-1991 timeframe but i'm not sure if he was on the scoreboard train. i sure have seen enough 1991 home rickey henderson shirts to suggest something was amiss.

rudy.

[TNTtoys]

mays and will clark. bo and nolan. canseco and gregg jeffries. those are the ones that immediately come to mind. not sure if there were others. rickey henderson would've been a logical choice given what a premier player he was around that 1989-1991 timeframe but i'm not sure if he was on the scoreboard train. i sure have seen enough 1991 home rickey henderson shirts to suggest something was amiss.

rudy.

Add Darryl Strawberry to the list. I remember one time seeing a seller with 2 for sale at the same time -- the Jefferies and the Strawberry. I had the "Daily Double" that night... Congratulations on your Trifecta! :)

[xpress34]

I'll add a little more fuel to this fire...

The Ryan - if it is a 'Gamer' - should be listed as a SPRING TRAINING Game GU.

Since his time with the Angels, Ryan only wore Goodman & Sons on the field - look at 'in game' picture of him - NO Rawlings or Russell or anyone else's logo on the sleeves.

The few Rangers pictures I have seen of him pitching in his home white where you can see the Rawlings or Russell logo on the sleeves ALL have Palm Trees in the background - suggesting Port Charlotte, FL as Arlington Stadium certainly did NOT have Palm Trees growing there.

Also, NOT just Scoreboard, but other 'Memorabilia' companies from the late 80's to early 90's had deals to resell both Rawlings and Russell 'AUTHENTICS' (w/ 'proper' tail tagging) as collectibles.

Just my .02

- Chris

[cohibasmoker]

interesting....i knew of the Nolan and Bo jackson...didnt know Willie Mays was in this group too

check out this game worn "coaches" willie mays that just ended....seems to me to be the same type jersey

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260487044710&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

In 1989, my wife and I were married. We spent part of our honeymoon in the Bay area. One day we stopped by Dick Dobbin's home and he was kind enough to show us part of his sports memorabilia collection. Of particular interest was a group of jerseys that he just received from the Giants.

My memory is a tad sketchy but what I can remember was Dick showing me the different ways the Giants changed letters, numbers, added nameplates, removed nameplates, put NOB without nameplates. If it took stripping a number off one jersey and putting it on another, they did it. If they needed a letter for a jersey, they would take a letter off of another nameplate. It didn't matter. We also discussed the many DIFFERENT tagging schemes the team used. Even back then, Dick was concerned about jerseys from the same year having different tagging schemes.

The bottom line was, the team did not care about standardized practices and they did whatever they needed to do to outfit the team. And yes, there were a couple of Mays jerseys in the lot. I know this because I was considering buying one.

Jim

[sox83cubs84]

mays and will clark. bo and nolan. canseco and gregg jeffries. those are the ones that immediately come to mind. not sure if there were others. rickey henderson would've been a logical choice given what a premier player he was around that 1989-1991 timeframe but i'm not sure if he was on the scoreboard train. i sure have seen enough 1991 home rickey henderson shirts to suggest something was amiss.

rudy.

Don't forget Seaver and Mike Schmidt, too.

Also...ALL Score Board jerseys are home versions, and none were made of teams that used Wilson only at the time on their home styles (Braves, Blue Jays, Red Sox, Tigers, Yankees.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[kingjammy24]

jim

on both of the mays ebay jerseys, you'll notice the strip tags are sewn underneath the rawlings tag. assuming that neither jersey is doctored, the only logical conclusion is that the strip tags were affixed by the manufacturer. if they were affixed by the team or a local shop, then that'd mean that the mfr tag would need to have been popped open, the strip tag inserted underneath and the mfr tag resewn. i don't see evidence of this nor does it make sense to go through all that trouble when you could just sew the strip tag directly below without actually sewing inside the mfr tag. when you see a strip tag sewn underneath a mfr tag it typically means it was done by the manufacturer.

secondly, the fact that the strip tags bear a font style used by other rawlings-provided teams during that era further supports my idea that the strip tags were affixed by rawlings. it's the exact same font i've seen on rawlings jerseys of that era from the A's, Brewers, Cubs, Expos, Indians, Rangers, and Twins. when you get the same font being used by numerous clubs across the country, again, it's an indication that the font was sewn by the mfr. how did 8 different clubs magically manage to choose the exact same font? they didn't. it came from rawlings.

thirdly, both of the ebay mays jerseys have 1990/91 style rawlings tags with 1989 strip tags. i've seen a total of 3 or 4 legit rawlings gamers, from all MLB teams, with that aberration (usually late season orders). what an incredible coincidence that 2 HOME willie mays shirts from 1989 specifically have the exact same aberration. this specification aberration (1990/91 tags with 1989 strip or flag tags) is a hallmark of scoreboard shirts.

the Giants may have been doing things willy-nilly, but those strip tags were implemented by rawlings, not the Giants. i'm aware that teams use different tagging schemes within a single season but in most cases those different schemes all still come from the mfr. in 1990, the A's used 2 different kinds of tagging; some jerseys had strip tags, some had flag tags. both kinds came from rawlings, not the A's. the Jays used different kinds; both came from wilson. during the early 90s, the white sox couldn't make up their minds between russell and wilson so the entire team played in both mfrs, in home, road, and alt jerseys, within the same game. again, any and all variations came from the mfr. these variations may have been requested by the team, but they still came from the mfr.

i understand your implication that a 4-digit format may be correct. personally, what i'd like to see before i reached that conclusion on 1989 giants shirts, would be at least 1 common player showing a 4-digit format. not a willie mays autographed shirt with a scoreboard-esque tagging aberration. show me a donell nixon or greg litton with a 4-digit year strip tag and that'll prove to me that the giants did use that specific format in that specific year. simply saying the giants were nutty doesn't actually prove anything one way or another.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Also...ALL Score Board jerseys are home versions..

that never registered to me before but now that i think about it, it's true. the canseco, bo, strawberry, jeffries, will clark shirts were ALL home jerseys. magic! just an incredible coincidence. i'm guessing it was because the target market for these shirts were fans of the specific players and the most amount of fans of a specific player would likely be found in the player's team's hometown. eg: most of will clark's fans were in SF and they'd likely prefer a home shirt to a road shirt.

i've seen a number of these willie mays jerseys and again, not a single road version. maybe willie didn't go on the road with the team huh? i remember seeing boxloads of bo jackson and canseco shirts, before i knew they were scoreboard shirts and the one thing that i couldn't understand is why there were so many home "gamers" available for these 2 players in but i'd never seen a single road shirt. if you looked at the jacksons, it seemed as if bo wore 30 home jerseys in 1989, yet i'd only seen 1 or maybe 2 of his road shirts.

this makes the "1991 rickey henderson" glut more interesting. again, tons of 1991 henderson home jerseys available, most in pristine condition yet i've only seen 1 road gamer of his from that year.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

willie sure did go through a lot of jerseys as a part-time coach. note: if these were simply autographed retail/replica shirts then the rawlings tag would be on the outside tail, not the inside.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=37853

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=87061&Lot_No=90619&src=pr

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=48111&Lot_No=41157&src=pr

rudy.

[sox83cubs84]

Amazingly, there's a seller on eBay currently listing a Mike Schmidt Score Board jersey and he DOESN'T say or even hint that the jersey is game used. This honest guy that Diogenes is looking for is seller autograph2.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[MikeM]

on both of the mays ebay jerseys, you'll notice the strip tags are sewn underneath the rawlings tag. assuming that neither jersey is doctored, the only logical conclusion is that the strip tags were affixed by the manufacturer. if they were affixed by the team or a local shop, then that'd mean that the mfr tag would need to have been popped open, the strip tag inserted underneath and the mfr tag resewn. i don't see evidence of this nor does it make sense to go through all that trouble when you could just sew the strip tag directly below without actually sewing inside the mfr tag. when you see a strip tag sewn underneath a mfr tag it typically means it was done by the manufacturer.

From Bill Henderson's guide showing the authentic game worn SF Giants tags from 1989, all of them show the tags underneath the rawlings tag. (see attached)

And there are many different variables that were used it shows.

[kingjammy24]

From Bill Henderson's guide showing the authentic game worn SF Giants tags from 1989, all of them show the tags underneath the rawlings tag. (see attached)

And there are many different variables that were used it shows.

i've checked henderson's guide and your photos. what are the variables, besides the fact that, while they were sewn underneath the tag, the exact location differed slightly? the font and date format appears consistent.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

edit to my last msg: "date format" should read "number format". interesting that henderson's exemplars show the giants using uniform numbers on their strip tags while the ebay willie mays jerseys show a date. i've never had any interest in giants shirts so unfortunately i don't have a giants library to show.

sometimes rawlings placed the strip tags a little higher on the left, and sometimes a little lower. sometimes they even placed them on the bottom. how does this support the idea that the strip tags were done by the giants? i fail to see the point being made. the only point i see is that rawlings was somewhat sloppy in where they applied the tags. i don't think they cared much.

if a strip tag is sewn underneath a mfr tag, then in order to get it under there after the fact would necessarily entail popping open the mfr tag, sliding it underneath and resewing it. this is common sense. you would see ghost stitching/restitching. go ahead and sew a strip tag under the mfr tag of jersey and see what's required and how it looks after you're all done. you'll be able to tell that the seam was popped open and resewn. conversely, if a strip tag is seamlessly (no pun intended) inserted under a mfr tag then the only way to do that would be for the mfr tag to have been sewn over top of it and the only entity able to do that would've been rawlings. rawlings did not ship tagless jerseys along with a whole box of loose rawlings mfr tags and strip tags to teams with the intent that the teams then construct it themselves.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

good god what i'd do for the "edit" function to be brought back. anyway, when jim talked about different "tagging schemes" i assume he meant different tagging formats (different fonts, different date/number/set formats, different materials), not extremely minor differences in tag placement. noone would call one tag being 2mm higher than another tag a "different tagging scheme". the standard rawlings flag tags also differed slightly in their exact placement. again, these differences were obviously implemented by rawlings, not the giants.

rudy.

[suave1477]

that never registered to me before but now that i think about it, it's true. the canseco, bo, strawberry, jeffries, will clark shirts were ALL home jerseys. magic! just an incredible coincidence. i'm guessing it was because the target market for these shirts were fans of the specific players and the most amount of fans of a specific player would likely be found in the player's team's hometown. eg: most of will clark's fans were in SF and they'd likely prefer a home shirt to a road shirt.

i've seen a number of these willie mays jerseys and again, not a single road version. maybe willie didn't go on the road with the team huh? i remember seeing boxloads of bo jackson and canseco shirts, before i knew they were scoreboard shirts and the one thing that i couldn't understand is why there were so many home "gamers" available for these 2 players in but i'd never seen a single road shirt. if you looked at the jacksons, it seemed as if bo wore 30 home jerseys in 1989, yet i'd only seen 1 or maybe 2 of his road shirts.

this makes the "1991 rickey henderson" glut more interesting. again, tons of 1991 henderson home jerseys available, most in pristine condition yet i've only seen 1 road gamer of his from that year.

rudy.

Ruday yeah I pointed that out some time ago. That they are always home Jerseys and that is why I tell people if you want a Strawberry from that year wait for a Road Jersey at least that way you have a highly likeness that it will be the real thing. I always tell people no matter what stay away from his Home Jerseys from that year.

Here is the Irony of it all. I have yet to ever see from that year a Road Jersey pop up.
It is always a Home Jersey.

[Marichal27]

In 1989, my wife and I were married. We spent part of our honeymoon in the Bay area. One day we stopped by Dick Dobbin's home and he was kind enough to show us part of his sports memorabilia collection. Of particular interest was a group of jerseys that he just received from the Giants.

My memory is a tad sketchy but what I can remember was Dick showing me the different ways the Giants changed letters, numbers, added nameplates, removed nameplates, put NOB without nameplates. If it took stripping a number off one jersey and putting it on another, they did it. If they needed a letter for a jersey, they would take a letter off of another nameplate. It didn't matter. We also discussed the many DIFFERENT tagging schemes the team used. Even back then, Dick was concerned about jerseys from the same year having different tagging schemes.

The bottom line was, the team did not care about standardized practices and they did whatever they needed to do to outfit the team. And yes, there were a couple of Mays jerseys in the lot. I know this because I was considering buying one.

Jim

Had nothing to do with the team, had to do with the manufacturer, in this case Rawlings.

[kingjammy24]

anyway, here's the other point; these scoreboard shirts were produced by rawlings for resale by scoreboard. the profundity here is that they were produced according to "pro specs" that included the same size and tagging as worn by the respective player. scoreboard's canseco jersey was perfect. flawless in every respect. they even had "2 90" strip tags. "2"! as if they were really set 2s! they seem to all have had 1990-91 rawlings tags even though some jerseys had 1989 strip/flag tags (like the bo jackson) while others had apropo 1990 strip/flag tags (like the canseco). the cansecos were completely error-free. at least on some of the others, like the bo jacksons, you could tell that 1989 flag tag didn't jive with the 1990-91 rawlings tag. interestingly enough, the bo jacksons were also "set 2" and the ebay nolan ryan is a set 2. i would be curious if the gregg jeffries', strawberrys, schmidts and will clarks were also set 2s.

anyway i still haven't gotten to the real point: these jerseys were produced as if they would've been ordered by the team/player and as such, had proper tagging. yet the willie mays doesn't appear to have proper tagging. that is, it appears to have tagging that isn't consistent with legit 1989 giants gamers and to me that inconsistency doesn't make much sense. to my knowledge, the scoreboard shirts were properly tagged/tagged identically to gamers because that's how they were ordered. yet the ebay jackson and ebay mays seem to have tagging inconsistent with 1989 A's and 1989 Giants jerseys respectively. i'm not sure why that is.

rudy.

[zonker]

here's some pic's of jersey that came with team letter from dobbins. i have seen a few player from 90/91. who were not offered by score board with the same tagging as the may's except year, but i know may's was banned by mlb and reinstated in late 89 so maybe that's why the tagging is this way? i don't know how many may's are out there, but he was a hitting coach at the time as well as appearing at world series game's and played in the legend's game's during that time wearing this same style and the tagging can be seen sewn on the inside of the tail from picture's from these game's. so they were example's of this tagging style offered with team letter's from this time period. here's an a's road with this style tagging from a no name player that came with dobbins letter from 90, so there are road jersey's out there also with this style tagging that came from the team. i just thought it was interesting?

[zonker]

here's pic's of a 90 henderson with close tagging also came with team letter.

[TNTtoys]

i would be curious if the gregg jeffries', strawberrys, schmidts and will clarks were also set 2s.

Here's the tagging from a Jefferies shirt -- it's a Set 1.

[Marichal27]

here's some pic's of jersey that came with team letter from dobbins. i have seen a few player from 90/91. who were not offered by score board with the same tagging as the may's except year, but i know may's was banned by mlb and reinstated in late 89 so maybe that's why the tagging is this way? i don't know how many may's are out there, but he was a hitting coach at the time as well as appearing at world series game's and played in the legend's game's during that time wearing this same style and the tagging can be seen sewn on the inside of the tail from picture's from these game's. so they were example's of this tagging style offered with team letter's from this time period. here's an a's road with this style tagging from a no name player that came with dobbins letter from 90, so there are road jersey's out there also with this style tagging that came from the team. i just thought it was interesting?
Mays was in spring traing in 1986, and did some coaching for the Giants. Plus he had uniforms made up for him. Plus he never had a uniform made out for him in '89.

[Marichal27]

willie sure did go through a lot of jerseys as a part-time coach. note: if these were simply autographed retail/replica shirts then the rawlings tag would be on the outside tail, not the inside.

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=37853

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=87061&Lot_No=90619&src=pr

http://sports.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=48111&Lot_No=41157&src=pr

rudy.
There is someone else trying to sell one of the Scoreboard Mays jersey's as "issued". Then he said it was used in World Series, old timers games, said Mays was a hitting coach.
ebay #220498393834

[Marichal27]

here's some pic's of jersey that came with team letter from dobbins. i have seen a few player from 90/91. who were not offered by score board with the same tagging as the may's except year, but i know may's was banned by mlb and reinstated in late 89 so maybe that's why the tagging is this way? i don't know how many may's are out there, but he was a hitting coach at the time as well as appearing at world series game's and played in the legend's game's during that time wearing this same style and the tagging can be seen sewn on the inside of the tail from picture's from these game's. so they were example's of this tagging style offered with team letter's from this time period. here's an a's road with this style tagging from a no name player that came with dobbins letter from 90, so there are road jersey's out there also with this style tagging that came from the team. i just thought it was interesting?
Zonker...You wouldn't happen to have a tagged 1989 24 Mays "issued" jersey on ebay?

[kingjammy24]

this thread seems to have evolved into 2 unrelated issues.

1) the correct tagging for 1989 giants jerseys

2) whether or not scoreboard offered 1989 home willie mays jerseys

zonker, the pics you show do not show the same style of tagging as the ebay mays. your tags have a 2-digit year, the ebay mays' have a 4-digit year. given that they aren't the same, i'm not sure what point you were trying to make. your kelly downs jersey is from 1991, has a correct 1990/91 style rawlings tag and a 2-digit year. how does this comment on a 1989 willie mays jersey with an incorrect 1990/91 style rawlings tag with a 4-digit year?

if the tagging seen on the ebay mays jerseys is correct, then it's completely irrelevant to the scoreboard issue because the scoreboard shirts should have the correct tagging! that is, a scoreboard shirt isn't identified by incorrect tagging.

for me, this thread wasn't really about correct tagging on 1989 giants shirts but rather about the ebay mays' jerseys being scoreboard shirts. so far, i've seen about 5 of these things, they're all home jerseys and they're all set 2. mays really went through 5 home jerseys in 1989? and somehow they all wound up being set 2? does anyone with any common sense believe this to be likely? what are the odds of a part-time hitting instructor being issued 5 home set 2 jerseys in 1989? and of course, they're all autographed which was how the scoreboard shirts were offered.

rudy.

[zonker]

marichal..... no i don't . the point i was making kingjimmy was all the differant tagging style's used by the giant's from 89-91 and all that were shown by me are correct. all the scoreboard jersey's that i have seen are tagged correctly and the may's is not. that makes me belive that the mays isn't a scoreboard. this also backed by another forum member who actually seen and was offered this style jersey from dick dobbins back in the day. wasn't he the only way to get authentic giant gamer's back in the day. my theory is that mays ordered these directly from rawling's for whatever reason thru dick dobbins or the giant's. one thing is for sure they all were issued and ordered from rawlings and ended up in willie may's hand's for him to autograph. i don't believe that willie went on the road with the giant's. so why would he need a road jersey. he always seemed to show up at the giants season openers,world series,old timers games and played in the legend's game's during that period. could willie have ordered 5 or more jersey's from rawling's late in the 89 season to use at these event's? exspecialy during 1990 absolutely! i thought the thread was about score board jersey's as well and all identifier's point to these jersey not being a typical jersey offered by score board. the tagging is incorrect for all other known score board jerseys.

[kingjammy24]

...all the scoreboard jersey's that i have seen are tagged correctly and the may's is not. that makes me belive that the mays isn't a scoreboard....my theory is that mays ordered these directly from rawling's for whatever reason thru dick dobbins or the giant's..

mays was reinstated in 1985, not 1989. anyway, the scoreboard jerseys in general are interesting because of the tagging. scoreboard didn't sell them as game-used or game-issued so why did they go to all the trouble of getting these pro-spec shirts when they could've just gotten authentic replicas? i mean, if you're selling a bo jackson signed shirt for $199 or whatever, why go to the trouble of having it pro-tagged? were the HSN buyers really that savvy? anyway, for reasons unknown, scoreboard procured these shirts. the next question is how they did it. did they order them directly from rawlings or did they go through the players themselves? did canseco order 15 boxes of pro-tagged canseco jerseys for scoreboard?
the "how" matters because i don't believe anyone could just call up rawlings and order a pro-spec jersey. the best you could buy in those days, as a consumer, were retail offerings. rawlings wasn't producing pro-spec, pro-tagged shirts for retail sale. i can see how a team or player could place an order directly from rawlings. could scoreboard? could a retired player like mays? mays wasn't a player and i'm not sure what his real affiliation was with the giants in 1989. perhaps the reason the tagging on the mays isn't kosher is because mays wasn't a player. that is, rawlings made a jersey, for scoreboard, that didn't adhere to any player/team spec because mays wasn't a player and thus had no team. canseco or bo or will clark could place orders for the same jerseys that were actually shipped to them as players that year. teams had various tagging schemes. some had strip tags, some didn't, etc. so in order to produce 1989 bo jackson jerseys for scoreboard, all rawlings had to do was look up the specs for what they shipped to the royals in 1989. what was rawlings to look up in mays' case? was a "giant" officially in 1989? showing up for presentations doesn't make you part of the team. maybe rawlings just made up a generic strip tag because mays wasn't a player and thus didn't have a team so there was no reference for rawlings as to what to use. all of the other scoreboard shirts were properly tagged because the orders referred to current players on specific teams. mays was long retired and had no team so maybe rawlings just made up a generic tag for him. just an idea.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

from what i understand scoreboard signed individual athletes to contracts. i'm guessing then it was these athletes who procured their jerseys from rawlings. willie mays did indeed have a deal with scoreboard back in the day. so what exactly was willie supposed to ask rawlings for? jerseys "just like he wore while playing in 1989" like the other players? i'd be interested to see what kind of tagging the 1989 scoreboard will clarks had (if indeed i am correct that clark was part of scoreboards offerings. the only ones i'm 100% sure of are strawberry, canseco, and bo).

here's an '89 clark with the same style of tagging as the ebay mays: http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=6848#

anyone know why someone drew a star on the front? here's what i don't get about the AMI will clark jersey - it has a black armband which i believe was only worn during the world series in 1989. the jersey doesn't have a world series patch so how did it get an armband?

note, here's another 1989 will clark that does NOT have ebay mays' style tagging yet it has an armband and ws patch: http://www.huntauctions.com/LIVE/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=12&lot_num=21&lot_qual=

here's clark during the 1989 NLCS. no armband:
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4328/clarkd.jpg

so the armband only went into effect for the world series yet the AMI jersey, with the "Purchased from SF Giants" stamp has an armband yet no WS patch. also the position of the armband on the AMI jersey is not consistent with game photos. very odd.

anyway, here's willie mays during the 1989 WS. willie ain't wearin a jersey:

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/3880/mayso.jpg

rudy.

[Marichal27]

This is what I'm trying to tell someone on ebay. That Clark,
1. You can't see the patch because it is covered by another photo.
2. That AMI Clark has the black armband up too high. Should be right down to the trim. Here's a couple of real one's from 1989.

[kingjammy24]

1. You can't see the patch because it is covered by another photo.

are you saying the AMI clark has the WS patch?

there's no mention of it in the description or title. what sort of nutjob auction house gets a jersey with a WS patch on it and doesn't mention it at all?

i find the star to be very intriguing. almost as if someone drew it on there to denote something about the jersey; to permanently mark it for a specific reason.

rudy.

[Marichal27]

Rudy.....Don't forget ....they are AMI. Nothing makes much sense with them. As far as the star, I have no idea about that on. I've never seen that before.

[Marichal27]

are you saying the AMI clark has the WS patch?

there's no mention of it in the description or title. what sort of nutjob auction house gets a jersey with a WS patch on it and doesn't mention it at all?

i find the star to be very intriguing. almost as if someone drew it on there to denote something about the jersey; to permanently mark it for a specific reason.

rudy.
Plus I've seen a Scoreboard "Clark" home jersey with the WS patch. About two months ago.

[Marichal27]

this thread seems to have evolved into 2 unrelated issues.

1) the correct tagging for 1989 giants jerseys

2) whether or not scoreboard offered 1989 home willie mays jerseys

zonker, the pics you show do not show the same style of tagging as the ebay mays. your tags have a 2-digit year, the ebay mays' have a 4-digit year. given that they aren't the same, i'm not sure what point you were trying to make. your kelly downs jersey is from 1991, has a correct 1990/91 style rawlings tag and a 2-digit year. how does this comment on a 1989 willie mays jersey with an incorrect 1990/91 style rawlings tag with a 4-digit year?



if the tagging seen on the ebay mays jerseys is correct, then it's completely irrelevant to the scoreboard issue because the scoreboard shirts should have the correct tagging! that is, a scoreboard shirt isn't identified by incorrect tagging. for me, this thread wasn't really about correct tagging on 1989 giants shirts but rather about the ebay mays' jerseys being scoreboard shirts. so far, i've seen about 5 of these things, they're all home jerseys and they're all set 2. mays really went through 5 home jerseys in 1989? and somehow they all wound up being set 2? does anyone with any common sense believe this to be likely? what are the odds of a part-time hitting instructor being issued 5 home set 2 jerseys in 1989? and of course, they're all autographed which was how the scoreboard shirts were offered.

rudy.
I was takling to Lon Lewis, this afternoon, and he was telling me Scoreboard sold these, I remember the adds in SCD, when it was worth reading, plus Scoreboard sold them on QVC or one of those shopping shows on TV on top of that.

[lon lewis]

I can't take it any longer as this thread has really gone off of the deep end. The ridiculous speculation and all of the attendant nonsense. Where in the world do you guys get this stuff?
There are so many misconceptions here that I can't even begin to address them all. I will however, explain to Rudy that the reason you can find 1989 Giants jerseys with the armband and lacking the patch is because the Giants only put the patch on 1 home and 1 road jersey for the series. Before you "don't understand" I'll anticipate your question- The Giants didn't have a sufficent quantity of patches to put on all of the jerseys so it was decided to put the patch on 1 home and 1 road.

Willie Mays: Mays was "brought back" to the Giants in 1986 as a "special assistant" to the G.M. ( Al Rosen) he was NOT a hitting instructor, batting coach or roving instructor as has been alluded to.

Dick Dobbins: Dobbins was merely the individual who sold what the Giants provided him. Dobbins did NOT-- I REPEAT- NOT have anything to do with the ordering of the uniforms. To suggest otherwise well, someone has a real active imagination.

Scoreboard: I did see Mays appearance on QVC in the early 90's and the jerseys sold on that show were the same as what's being offered on ebay. As to who would have ordered them from Rawlings, it would have been either QVC or Scoreboard. The athletes would have been paid to sign and promote them.

One final note, the jerseys that have been listed recently on ebay are Scoreboard/QVC jerseys nothing is going to change that no over- enhanced descriptions, no maybe this or maybe that, no amount of fanciful speculation. Get over it.

[kingjammy24]

..As to who would have ordered them from Rawlings, it would have been either QVC or Scoreboard. The athletes would have been paid to sign and promote them.

if ordered from rawlings by either qvc or scoreboard, i still "don't understand" why these were pro-spec jerseys. at the time, rawlings had retail offerings. i've seen the scoreboard cert for the canseco jersey and it was merely billed as an "autographed jersey". i can't imagine qvc/scoreboard explicitly placed orders for "game-issued style" jerseys nor can i understand why rawlings went to all of the extra lengths to make up such shirts, complete with strip tags, when retail jerseys would've sufficed.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2555/arodp.jpg

rudy.

[Marichal27]

if ordered from rawlings by either qvc or scoreboard, i still "don't understand" why these were pro-spec jerseys. at the time, rawlings had retail offerings. i've seen the scoreboard cert for the canseco jersey and it was merely billed as an "autographed jersey". i can't imagine qvc/scoreboard explicitly placed orders for "game-issued style" jerseys nor can i understand why rawlings went to all of the extra lengths to make up such shirts, complete with strip tags, when retail jerseys would've sufficed.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2555/arodp.jpg

rudy.
Rudy....It's called marketing. If it was just a retail jersey, it would not have sold as much from Scoreboard. Scoreboard had deals with the big and ex MLB stars, and Rawlings was the MLB supplier of the jerseys.Ask Lon.

[zonker]

lon that makes no sence at all. why in the world would dick dobbins be selling score board jerseys and why would the giants have these jerseys to begin with if they were issued to score board or qvc and then have dick offer them. were they offered as issued jerseys with giants c.o.a. this is why these jerseys keep baffling people. the score board jerseys according to members on here were pro-tagged jerseys. i didn't think that anyone could just order pro-tagged jerseys fron rawlings. i thought that would be a contract violation with mlb as there supplier. also if the team or player wasn't ordering these jerseys for willie. what is he wearing in all those pictures of him at opening day,world series,and old timers games during this time period. some say willie was never an instructor for the giants. but according to the press and willie he was. still very confusing!

[zonker]

well it doesnt matter now. talked with seller this morning and directed him to this thread again and he agreed to end listing until he can find out exactly what this jersey is,although he claims his description was correct as the jersey was issued by rawlings in1989 and signed by willie. he stated he never said the jersey was used in any way only that willie was at these event's wearing this style jersey. he only offered it as issued and signed. well i guess confusion kills.

[Marichal27]

lon that makes no sence at all. why in the world would dick dobbins be selling score board jerseys and why would the giants have these jerseys to begin with if they were issued to score board or qvc and then have dick offer them. were they offered as issued jerseys with giants c.o.a. this is why these jerseys keep baffling people. the score board jerseys according to members on here were pro-tagged jerseys. i didn't think that anyone could just order pro-tagged jerseys fron rawlings. i thought that would be a contract violation with mlb as there supplier. also if the team or player wasn't ordering these jerseys for willie. what is he wearing in all those pictures of him at opening day,world series,and old timers games during this time period. some say willie was never an instructor for the giants. but according to the press and willie he was. still very confusing!
Dick never sold Scoreboard jerseys.

[lon lewis]

Zonker, After reading your comments abut my post, I feel as though I'm back in the McAuliffe "debate" from March of this year. I don't know what "sense" my post doesn't make as I was responding in part to the assertion/speculation YOU made in your post that Dobbins was ordering/ selling Scorboard jerseys. As Marichal 27 correctly put it, Dobbins didn't sell Scoreboard jerseys. You also wonder why the Giants would have these jerseys and put them out there. here's a news flash for you- the Giants didn't have those jerseys QVC & Scoreboard did- and since they were marketed and sold in the early '90's the Giants 1989 jerseys were long gone by then. Anyone who claims otherwise is mistaken. While there were Mays jerseys ordered '86-89 (and probably later) for his use, they were tagged in the same fashion as the rest of their order. What he's wearing for those "pictures", is what the Giants had made for him not what has been offered on ebay. I would like to point out that the ST photo was probably taken in '86 and is identified as Tempe Az. the Giants in those days conducted the early portion of S.T. at Indian School Park in SCOTTSDALE Arizona. If the photographer couldn't get the city right, who's to say the rest of the caption is correct? If you had actually read my post, you'd note that I never said the Giants had no jerseys ordered for Mays in 1989 or that Dobbins was selling Scoreboard jerseys.

[Marichal27]

Zonker, After reading your comments abut my post, I feel as though I'm back in the McAuliffe "debate" from March of this year. I don't know what "sense" my post doesn't make as I was responding in part to the assertion/speculation YOU made in your post that Dobbins was ordering/ selling Scorboard jerseys. As Marichal 27 correctly put it, Dobbins didn't sell Scoreboard jerseys. You also wonder why the Giants would have these jerseys and put them out there. here's a news flash for you- the Giants didn't have those jerseys QVC & Scoreboard did- and since they were marketed and sold in the early '90's the Giants 1989 jerseys were long gone by then. Anyone who claims otherwise is mistaken. While there were Mays jerseys ordered '86-89 (and probably later) for his use, they were tagged in the same fashion as the rest of their order. What he's wearing for those "pictures", is what the Giants had made for him not what has been offered on ebay. I would like to point out that the ST photo was probably taken in '86 and is identified as Tempe Az. the Giants in those days conducted the early portion of S.T. at Indian School Park in SCOTTSDALE Arizona. If the photographer couldn't get the city right, who's to say the rest of the caption is correct? If you had actually read my post, you'd note that I never said the Giants had no jerseys ordered for Mays in 1989 or that Dobbins was selling Scoreboard jerseys.
To give anyone an idea, Carl Hubbell died in 11/88. I bet that the photo was done in 1986. Pretty sure Mays was in a uniform in spring training starting in '86.

[sox83cubs84]

Marichal:

I would be inclined to agree with you...I have seen a Mays 1986 Wilson home gamer up for auction in the past...proper tagging and styling, and almost certainly a spring training used piece, as very few teams (maybe none) had yet adopted the practice of wearing BP jerseys for spring games.

As far as associating Dick Dobbins with ScoreBoard jerseys:eek: ...that's like putting Nancy Pelosi in the Republican party...no go.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[kingjammy24]

To give anyone an idea, Carl Hubbell died in 11/88. I bet that the photo was done in 1986. Pretty sure Mays was in a uniform in spring training starting in '86.

no need to guess. i'll tell you..it was taken in spring training '86.

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/7949/arodx.jpg

"Mays, 54, who played for the Giants for 20 years, will rejoin the team as a full-time special assistant to general manager Al Rosen. Mays will not travel with the Giants. He will be with them during spring training and will work with their farm clubs"

every single thing i've read, which has been a decent amount thus far, says that mays attended Giants ST camps in the late 80s and did coach or instruct their players during that time. i read first-person accounts from giants players saying willie showed up and helped them out.

rudy.

[lon lewis]

If there was a properly tagged and sized '86 jersey up for auction, it would have been worn during the regular season not spring training. Once again,to repeat myself, the Giants ordered their jerseys during spring training for use in the upcoming season in this case 1986. Also, there was a directive from Al Rosen that mandated the Giants wear their regular jerseys for any game in spring training that the public was charged admission. "B" games and other workout situations were exempted. In 1986, those jerseys were the 1985 jerseys. The workout tops ( or BP jerseys) were mfr'd by Wilson and were mesh. If Mays was wearing a regular jersey in '86 spring training it would have been an '85 that was either a blank or # changed that was made up for him.

[kingjammy24]

i found this:

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2937/arodz.jpg

rudy.

[lon lewis]

Rudy, nice of you to post a newspaper article of what I already knew but to enlighten those who believe everything written in the papers, Mays contrary to what was published, wound up spending longer in '86 spring training than was written, he also made at least 2 road trips with the team( east coast) and was in the Giants Candlestick clubhouse for almost every game during the '86 season. He also found time to visit both Phoenix (AAA) and the single A affiliate but I don't know if he was at the AA team's location. As far as "coaching" I was referring to his regular season activities. (this is what those jerseys are purported to be) In fact, There are a lot of "instructors/ coaches" involved in spring training that aren't actually involved with the team in that capacity during the regular season. Of course the next leap will probably be that the ebay jerseys in question will magically become "spring training coaches" jerseys. ( due to in no small part to the info on here ) the problem with that would be the Giants used the previous years jerseys for the spring training games where mandated. Oh yeah, if these jerseys were issued to Mays by the Giants, how come you never see a McCovey jersey? They both were "special assistants" and both attended spring training and the last time I looked, both were in the HOF. Now I remember--- McCovey wasn't featured on QVC. Must be a coincidence.

[zonker]

lon thanks for the info, but i wasn't the one who said they seen these jerseys in dick's house and considered buying one? nor was i the one who stated dick sells whatever the giants sent him. my confusion there as i still thought we were talking about score board jerseys. i was repeating what i read on here and all of the pictures of willie 89-90 are all showing him in rawlings jerseys not a wilson spring training jersey even at the opening day ceremonies. how the thread got back to 86 i don't know. i thought we were talking about 89 on and score board jerseys and why they were not tagged like the giant issued or other score board jersey's. i guesss that is still a mystery . i appreciate your time and explanations on the jerseys and don't worry. i get it! i just like a little proof with someone's opinion on something like this. thats all. would still like to see a rael giants 89-90 issued mays jersey with proper tagging. again i believe these on ebay to be score board. it just seems that if there are 660 of them out there you would see them more often?

[lon lewis]

Zonker, Although Cohibasmoker is the first to mention seeing Mays jerseys at Dobbins house in 1989 he doesn't say anything about the tagging of those jerseys or even if they were 1989 jerseys when he was there or any other details. Only that he saw Mays jerseys. You took the leap to state that they were the same as what is being offered. Cohibasmoker also does admit that his memory is a little "sketchy" ( whose isn't after 20 years) and a couple of things attributed to Dobbins were off the mark. For example,The Giants used a vertical arc style of NOB lettering. That style of lettering doesn't lend itself to swapping letters. The Giants used jerseys with the NOB directly on the jersey. Not in the regular season.
I think we got into 1986 because it was stated that Mays was re-instated in 1989- people corrected that and then started to expand on the idea with articles and photos. The fact that you don't see as many Scoreboard jerseys for sale as were sold, means nothing unless you think that everyone who owns one has to sell it. How many of the approximately 12 from 1986 do you see for sale?

[kingjammy24]

i've also seen a fair number of these. i have many 1989 A's gamers in my photo library and none are tagged in this way. and again, it has a 1990/91 rawlings tag. scoreboard?

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4355/arod.jpg

rudy.

[zonker]

i'm sorry i misunderstood. i assumed that when he stated that he saw mays jerseys at dick's in 1989 that it was like or because of the mays jersey's in question. so the purchased from giant's with the star will clark jersey kingjimmy posted was fabricated and attributted to the giants and dobbins? did dick normally intial jersey's like the one they said was a legit ckark and do you think all these mays/clark 4 digit jersey's were like a 1st generation score board jersey and because of the 4 digit tagging really didn't go over to well with the game used collectors so they changed the tagging to be identicle to legit gamers in 90-91? i have seen the score board jerseys with the flag tags that read set2 with extra 1inch home jersey's everywhere. why were these differant. i don't mean to be a bother everybody with all these questions. i'm just trying to learn.

[kingjammy24]

i doubt i'll get the answers but here's what i'd still like to know:

1) why did scoreboard receive pro-tagged shirts? marichal, i know you said it was about marketing and that game-issued shirts would sell for more but if that were the case then why were these jerseys not specifically marketed as "game issued" or something similar? they were simply sold as "autographed jerseys".

2) it seems i misspoke when i said that all scoreboard shirts were tagged identically to the real pro versions. the 1989 nolan ryan, 1989 reggie jackson, and 1989 will clark/willie mays didn't seem to be tagged as their pro counterparts were. why not? the 1989 bo jackson, 1990 canseco, strawberry and jeffries were all correctly tagged.

it'd be great if anyone could post any of the original advertisements for these things. maybe someone can call up ken goldin and ask him.

zonker: jim simply said that when he went to dobbins' home, he saw mays jerseys. that's it. he never said or implied how they were tagged, what year they were from, or even if they were home or road shirts. several team shirts have used the "purchased from.." stamps including the A's, giants, and indians. maybe the angels. i remember hearing that robb wochnick, formerly of sports warehouse, would stamp shirts he received from teams. i also remember hearing that it was not the teams that affixed those stamps. what dobbins specifically did or didn't do, i do not know. i do know that information pertaining to what dobbins did has been explained here on the forum before so you can do a search for it. discussing the AMI will clark is difficult because there are no photos showing the tagging or the stamp. the reason i posted the willie mays pics was to establish a) whether willie appeared at spring training b) whether he ever wore giants jerseys in the 80s. i posted the pic of the '86 shirt simply because it pertained to the topic of what willie wore/would've worn in giants spring training. was the shirt i posted good? i have no idea. i know it seems odd to me that the nameplate had so much pinching on the sides.

for me, a 1989 jersey with a 1990/91 rawlings tag is a rare thing. the very few legit examples i've seen were all benchwarmers. yet here you have a constant flood of this specific anomaly all by superstars. reggie, willie, bo, nolan ryan. it simply doesn't make sense that this anomaly would've occurred in this capacity in a legit setting. if you look at the 1989 nolan ryan shirts with "34 1 1989" tagging..again, 1990/91 rawlings tags with 1989 strip tags. multiple times over..because apparently late in the 1989 season ryan felt the need to start wearing rawlings shirts? if you see this anomaly on many jerseys from a superstar, common sense tells you something isn't right.

rudy.

[sox83cubs84]

The mentions of the regular season use of the 1986 Giants Willie Mays jersey as well as the lack of a corresponding amount of 1989 Giants McCovey jerseys to exist with the Mays versions further proves the point. While we're at it, if all those 1989's were team-issued/GU pieces, how come there are no road greys? You'd think Mays travelled at least once or twice during the season, not to mention possible Old-Timers appearances in other cities that some wrongfully try to make the Score Board versions out to be.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[lon lewis]

For all of you who have been following this thread, I decided to check out the '89 Clark but as mentioned before, there are no photos of the tagging so just going by the front and back photos, I compared it to the tapes of the '89 series (games 3 &4) and the jersey offered is NOT what Clark wore in those games. In addition to the armband being in the wrong position, the NOB is up much higher on the AMI jersey than where it was positioned on the Clark WS jersey. I have no idea what that star is- it is NOT something that Dobbins would have done. By way of a possible explanation for the AMI jersey, there were a number of bogus Clark 1989 WS jerseys in circulation in the bay area in early 1990. All were produced by the same individual and all had the same characteristics including a "purchased from" stamp however, that stamp while being a close duplicate, was a little off. Just for Rudy, I've attached a photo of Mays from 1986 that is part of a photoshoot for one of the sports publications that year. the actual photo is 11X14 so I could only scan half. The jersey that Rudy posted and subsequently questioned is identical to that one in the tagging, size, right down to the "puckered" NOB. By way of explanation the "puckering" is a result of Wilson using a very tight zig-zag stitch on the NOB plate on that style of jersey and as a result, once the jersey has been laundered, what you see there happens. The second photo shows the back of the jersey mays is wearing. One other interesting thing that I noticed on the '89 tapes ( game 3) in the opening sequence there is a pan of one side of the Giants clubhouse that shows the Giants jerseys hanging name & # side out. Clark's alternate jersey (sans patch) is shown. What caught my eye was that it's a McAdams NOB on that jersey.

[Marichal27]

i've also seen a fair number of these. i have many 1989 A's gamers in my photo library and none are tagged in this way. and again, it has a 1990/91 rawlings tag. scoreboard?


http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/4355/arod.jpg

rudy.

Rudy....Since Jackson was working for the Yankees in 1989, what do you think these are?

[kingjammy24]

Rudy....Since Jackson was working for the Yankees in 1989, what do you think these are?

you're saying this is incorrect?:

"He served as an advisor to the Oakland A's from 1988 to 1993, and the New York Yankees beginning in 1993."

anyway, the ebay seller got an interesting comment on his ebay listing:

"Q: Hello, I own this exact signed jersey. This jersey was offered by QVC in 1993 with a special appearance by Reggie Jackson honoring him as a HOFer..."

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

i wonder what year these are from:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9537/reggiew.jpg

rudy.

[Marichal27]

i wonder what year these are from:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/9537/reggiew.jpg

rudy.
More than likely in 1987, when Jackson last played for the A's. Too bad they weren't wering there regular jseys since in '87, the A's had their All-Star Game patch. If someone has an A's or Yankees media guide from '88 or in that period, at least after '87, in the Yankees guide there should be something in there about Jax being a consultant or whatever position he had. That woud solve that problem.

[sox83cubs84]

The Score Board Nolan Ryan was up to $811 as of a few hours ago.:eek:

Dave M.
Chicago area

[xpress34]

The Score Board Nolan Ryan was up to $811 as of a few hours ago.:eek:

Dave M.
Chicago area

:cool: I shouldn't be surprised, but as I have said before, most people don't realize that Nolan NEVER wore Rawlings or Russell on the field during his time with the Rangers in games. Yes, he may have worn it for ST or Photo Ops, but he wore custom made Goodman & Sons since his time with the Angels... and this yahoo is claiming it as GAME USED without ANY provenance!!!

- Chris

[Marichal27]

There is a Scoreboard Mays 1989 24 jersey, with the Scoreboard COA. At least this guy is honest.
ebay item # 220500019824. That example should end any discussion on this subject!