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View Full Version : Fan in Boston gets g/u bat taken away



murfsteve25
08-21-2009, 07:12 PM
As im sittin here watching the Red Sox/Yankees game, Mike Lowell was up to bat in the bottom of the 2nd and his bat went flying into the stands. The bat hit a fan but he held onto the bat. The fan sat back down in his seat and held the bat up as he was looking at it. Within SECONDS, security runs down and literally grabs the bat out of the fans hands and runs back up the steps. The camera was still on the fan and you could clearly see how confused he was as he threw up his hands.

yanks12025
08-21-2009, 07:13 PM
Crap, you beat me to it, so now we have two posts about it.

murfsteve25
08-21-2009, 07:15 PM
ya...lol i just saw yours too. That sucks for the fan that they just took the bat from him like they did. I thought anything going in the stands was fair game?? Security pretty much ripped the bat from the fans hands.

metsbats
08-21-2009, 07:40 PM
As im sittin here watching the Red Sox/Yankees game, Mike Lowell was up to bat in the bottom of the 2nd and his bat went flying into the stands. The bat hit a fan but he held onto the bat. The fan sat back down in his seat and held the bat up as he was looking at it. Within SECONDS, security runs down and literally grabs the bat out of the fans hands and runs back up the steps. The camera was still on the fan and you could clearly see how confused he was as he threw up his hands.


Are you sure it was security and not a Steiner rep:D

David
08-21-2009, 07:42 PM
Maybe they were worried he got injured and wanted to destroy the evidence.

joelsabi
08-21-2009, 07:57 PM
did the fan get a replacement bat or that was that?

murfsteve25
08-21-2009, 08:47 PM
did the fan get a replacement bat or that was that?
no idea. the camera was on the guy long enough to show him confused and upset. Then it went back to the ballgame. From what I saw, I'd guess that was that since the security guy didnt say anything to the fan. He literally walked down, grabbed the bat out of the fans hands, and went back up the steps. You couldnt snap your fingers quicker than what happened.

mvandor
08-21-2009, 09:46 PM
Are you sure it was security and not a Steiner rep:D

Too funny. In a bad economy they'd mug a guy for a bat!

mbrieve
08-21-2009, 09:47 PM
Does Fenway have a no bat policy? I know that Comerica Park does not allow fans to possess bats in the park. If you buy a bat from Marc at the Authentics booth, I believe they hold onto it until the end of the game or whenever you leave the stadium. Maybe the guard will hold onto it until the end of the game and then give it to the fan.

Just a thought...

metsbats
08-21-2009, 10:02 PM
In any case that was really an abrasive way of handling the situation. A paying customer (who paid a premium at Fenway to see the Yankees) gets hit with a flying bat and gets the bat abruptly yanked out of his hands. No "sir are you ok after that flying projectile hit you". If this happened in Yankee stadium there would be a lawsuit in the making.

OaklandAsFan
08-21-2009, 10:47 PM
if some usher came down and tried to snatch the bat out of my hand after it hit me he would get the bat wrapped around his head. Thats a BS move no matter how you try to play it out and if he is smart he will use the publicity of it happening with literally millions of people watching (Red Sux/Yanmees no less) to get some free tix as well as a replacement bat.

suicide_squeeze
08-21-2009, 11:40 PM
Like I said in the other thread.....

".......from my cold, dead hands."

There is NO WAY those security morons would have gotten that bat from me. I would have held onto it as they escourted me out of the park, but NO WAY.......NONE WHATSOEVER, would I have let go of it.

Then, I would have been on local news, made a HUGE stink, probably having the whole thing escalate and end up on ESPN's SportsCenter. They have NO RIGHT to steal that bat from that fan.....PERIOD.

I challenge anyone, especially from the other recent thread we all just had on this topic, to prove me wrong.

I am not playing "tough guy" here.....I'm talking legality. Once it enters the seats and hits me.....it's MINE!

murfsteve25
08-21-2009, 11:55 PM
Once it enters the seats and hits me.....it's MINE!

Agreed!

mattmueller
08-22-2009, 05:29 PM
Squeeze:

If you are asking for somebody to provide an indication of how you would not own the bat legally, I will copy my post from the other thread below. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding of the legality of the situation is that you have no basis for your assertion of finders keepers related to a bat in the stands.
_______
...If I recall reading the legal issues on the McGwire and Bonds cases correctly, it is my understanding of the legal principles that allows fans to keep balls that make their way to the stands via home run, toss by player after a foul ball etc. is that of intentional abandonment. The team/MLB owns the ball, but has intentionally given up the ownership rights to it once it reaches the stands because they let the ball go without any intention of retrieving it. This abandonment premise has been built based on 100+ years of this tradition of fans keeping the balls, as well as in part codified by teams that put statements on signs and backs of ticket stubs indicating ~"fans may keep balls hit into the stands".

This is much different than bats, helmets, jerseys, etc. which make their way into the stands. Because there is consistent history of teams retrieving these items (e.g. NOT intentionally abandoning them) if they get to the seats, and because there are no signs or tickets that say "you can keep bats that end up in the stands", teams have consistently invoked their rights to retain the property. Therefore, there is no common law abandonment case, and those items remain the property of the team / MLB.
____

Matt

eisenreich8
08-22-2009, 09:16 PM
Right. If the organization's intention is to get the bat back, they are going to get the bat back. Quickly, neatly, completely.

gingi79
08-22-2009, 10:06 PM
There is NO WAY those security morons would have gotten that bat from me. I would have held onto it as they escourted me out of the park, but NO WAY.......NONE WHATSOEVER, would I have let go of it.


I agree. I'll leave the park with it or negotiate it for some other swag but I would have gone after the Usher and demanded MY bat back. Every team has a heads up message before the game starts for all fans to watch for balls and bats flying into the stands. Once it leaves the field of play it is fair game.

Not a huge black eye for the Sox but obviously they have advised their Ushers to recover the bat immediately. Very rude behavior especially since the dude paid $300 for his seat and Lowell through the bat at him.

Just like Squeeze said, not being a tough guy or overly aggressive but screw you usher, this bat hit me after leaving the field of play, it's now MY property.

godwulf
08-22-2009, 10:10 PM
As true as all of that may be, I would still be very interested to know whether that Security guy was acting on his own initiative, or if he had been given prior direction to do what he did. In all of my many years of watching Baseball, I have, of course, seen many bats retrieved, at the direction of the player or dugout, by ushers and others - usually quickly followed by its replacement with another bat - but I have never seen Security, or anyone else, simply swoop in like that, apparently on their own, and snatch a bat away.

suicide_squeeze
08-22-2009, 11:26 PM
It's just a situation of the guy in the seats not knowing what to do in the heat of the moment. These types of situations always catch the fans off guard. The only ones who wouldn't be caught off guard are......well, guys like us, because we've discussed it.


Let me ask you, mattmueller, to consider this scenario.

A guy sitting in the stands has a bat hurled at him by a player who loses his grip. The fan catches the bat, and is able to remain unharmed, and in catching the bat saves the others around him from getting hurt. So here comes Mr. Tool, the security guard, who immediately reaches to the fan's recovered bat saying "O.K. give it over now sir."

The fan says "Take a hike, it's mine now" as he pulls the bat away from the reach of the security guard. So now the guard is getting in the face of the fan, who is now standing and arguing with the guard, as another couple of security guards approach. The fan has a death grip on the bat with both hands, and the one guard is arguing to hand it over as he reaches over with one hand and starts to get into a minor tug-of-war over the bat.

What do you think the fan reaction is going to be? What.....do you think is going to happen to the reputation of the ballpark's management, the ownership, and the idiot ballplayer who allowed the dangerous event to occur if they pry that bat out of the guys hands, wrongfully, as the boo's increase in number and severity as this debacle unfolds before their eyes?

If the fan reads this post, all he has to remember is one thing: Just don't let go.....it's YOURS. Eventually, the coward security guards, team reps, etc., will become embarrassed over the scene they are making and walk away from the fan. If they escorted the guy off, they could be sued for wrongfully ejecting a fan who paid for his seats to enjoy the game. He did nothing wrong but protect himself and the fans seated around him from serious injury. Let's see someone in ownership of a Major League Franchise try to fight that one in court.

They (the ballpark personel, the player who let go of it, whomever....) have no rights to that bat any longer. Period. Once it enters the seats, it's a souvenir.

Nothing personal Matt, I just respectfully disagree with your view.

Prove me wrong, and I'll state my public congratulatory handshake to you. I haven't seen any proof yet.

suicide_squeeze
08-22-2009, 11:33 PM
Right. If the organization's intention is to get the bat back, they are going to get the bat back. Quickly, neatly, completely.

You have anything to back that up?

Because they wouldn't from me, and that's a fact....quickly, neatly, completely, or any which way.

mattmueller
08-23-2009, 07:42 AM
Squeeze:

The scenario you described has nothing to do with the legality of whose bat it is, it is purely a question of public relations between fans and a team.

In my prior post(s), I summarized the legal argument used in the most famous of relevant cases, the Bonds ball. What other proof would you like? Do you want me to find and link to the legal opinion in the Bonds ball case?

Let me turn it back to you. What legal basis (not PR issues or your tough guy "from my cold dead hands" argument) would you cite that you feel makes your statement that once a bat crosses some imaginary line and enters the stands, the team gives up its property rights and it becomes the property of the person who possesses it? Maybe I missed that part of any of your previous posts that actually provided some sort of factual basis for your stance.

Matt

eisenreich8
08-23-2009, 10:16 AM
You have anything to back that up?

Because they wouldn't from me, and that's a fact....quickly, neatly, completely, or any which way.


Yes, I do,

Share with us how many games you've watched in person at Fenway Park. Please? Zero. I have in my lifetime been to between 100-150. Since we are talking about an incident in the seats at Fenway Park, mind you, I am going to back up my statement by telling you in my expert, East Coast, Red Sox-game-attending expertise that you would do as well keeping your precious bat as you would against the 82nd Airborne. Red Sox security would give you last rites.





I made a few statement opinion,

metsbats
08-23-2009, 02:11 PM
I was looking at stadium rules for various teams. The standard language is "be alert for foul balls and bats going into the stands. Fans may keep foul balls". There is no reference to what a fan can do if a bat ends up in their hands.

Because there is no written rule I think the fan has the right to challenge the usher or security personnel trying to get it back.

eisenreich8
08-23-2009, 03:58 PM
I was looking at stadium rules for various teams. The standard language is "be alert for foul balls and bats going into the stands. Fans may keep foul balls". There is no reference to what a fan can do if a bat ends up in their hands.

Because there is no written rule I think the fan has the right to challenge the usher or security personnel trying to get it back.


Metsbats, that was my original and concise point. I was merely stating that if the intent of the organization was to retrieve the bat, they were going to do so. Win. Succeed. Prevail. Thye do not, and wisely so, begin a process and then melt in the face of opposition. Various teams do perhaps have/enforce rules differently, even selectively, but the original poster was specifically addressing an incident at Fenway Park. I'm not John Henry but I do know beyond all doubt that over 40 years of attending games at Fenway, park security/BPD will never waffle on a commitment to enforce what THEY have set in place for, even, rules-du-jour.

I have seen people dragged out of the park for arguing about the smoking policy. Or being tipsy. Or pickpocketing. Or various other unruly behaviors/actions that are sometimes enforced through the park's own interpretation. The fan does not have to be right or wrong. They just have to be at that end of the stick to experience the wrath. Same goes for Pats games, only far worse.

The lucky recipient of a pinwheeling bat into the stands is not assured of keeping it. Any more than if the umpire were to lose his wristwatch over the wall, or Vlad was to lose his fielder's glove over the wall, or if Arod were to lose his shades over the wall. The fans are spectators. They are not minority owners of the team. It's not (always) finders-keepers at the old ballyard.

Any of the other MLB/MiLB parks may have their own policies, more stringently or more casually enforced.

A good case study would be for a fan to actually catch an unintentionally released bat in the stands at Fenway and attempt to steadfastly refuse to part with it, under any circumstances, adamantly rebuffing all requests/demands from park officials to surrender it, and have the entire episode televised.

Until and unless that were to happen, all other scenarios are rendered moot. My money though, as far as Fenway goes, is still on the Northeastern University football players they hire as stadium beef.

metsbats
08-23-2009, 04:41 PM
From past experience back in the days when a game used bat was not desirable or fans were less aware of the value of a game used bat it was always the discretion of the player to want the bat back on not. Typically a bat boy was sent to the area where the bat landed with a replacement bat for trade. I've even seen cases where the fan tried to give the bat back and the player not wanting it and the lucky fan ended up keeping it. Those were the old days from what I recall happening at Shea.

Call me old fashioned but that's the way it should way be.

Now we have stadium goons descending on fans to grab the bats away.

That's the sore point of this particular incident which is bringing out the emotions set forth.

I still think it was a Steiner rep:D

suicide_squeeze
08-23-2009, 11:22 PM
From past experience back in the days when a game used bat was not desirable or fans were less aware of the value of a game used bat it was always the discretion of the player to want the bat back on not. Typically a bat boy was sent to the area where the bat landed with a replacement bat for trade. I've even seen cases where the fan tried to give the bat back and the player not wanting it and the lucky fan ended up keeping it. Those were the old days from what I recall happening at Shea.

Call me old fashioned but that's the way it should way be.

Now we have stadium goons descending on fans to grab the bats away.

That's the sore point of this particular incident which is bringing out the emotions set forth.

I still think it was a Steiner rep:D

metsbats.......That's the way it is.

I respect mattmuellers statements on the matter. They make sense. But I still don't believe there is any written directive that dictates a fan MUST
give back a bat that jetisons into his lap. I don't care what comes at me in way of security, they aren't getting the damn bat back if it's ME!

I stand by my earlier statements......someone provide proof, and I'll change my opinion......but I don't believe anyone will be able to.

NYCrulesU
08-23-2009, 11:46 PM
Back in the late 80's I was at a game. A bat flew into the stands and an usher came over to retrieve it. The fan refused to give the bat back. Security then arrived and the fan still refused. Security physically removed him from his seat and the stadium. I later heard, through the grapevine, that the fan was perma banned from the stadium.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 12:05 AM
Back in the late 80's I was at a game. A bat flew into the stands and an usher came over to retrieve it. The fan refused to give the bat back. Security then arrived and the fan still refused. Security physically removed him from his seat and the stadium. I later heard, through the grapevine, that the fan was perma banned from the stadium.

OK......and?

Did the fan leave the stadium with the bat?

Are we talking about a MLB game?

On what grounds, legal or otherwise, was the fan permanently banned from the stadium? Or, was that just a rumor?


In other words......what do we really know now, after you shared this info, that we didn't know before?

I mean no argument, disrespect, or wanton disagreement with you or in what you are saying. But forum members......please consider what I am saying. Short of a written document, be it on the back of your ticket, a posted notice in the stadium, or some other legal document made public....there is no established policy for how to handle this situation.

Unless it clearly states you "Must turn over to proper authority any bat leaving the playing field that ends up in the seats"......which I have yet to see or read ANYWHERE (it doesn't address it on the back of Dodger Stadium tickets).....it's Charleton Heston time, baby!

Just because you've been to Fenway Park for 150 games in your life, and you watched the way security handles paying customers in their neck of the country, doesn't make you knowledgable on what the actual standard practice is when a bat flies into the crowd. Like I have said, it is so off the norm, and startling, that when it happens, the fan that has just saved the day by corraling it is usually caught off guard when someone of authority approaches them quickly to retrieve it. JUST DON'T LET IT GO is my advice. If you for some reason become permanently banned for doing so, there are obvious steps you could take to remedy that quickly.

Like find an attorney to demand factual evidence that the fan should have known that any bat coming into the stands was not a souvenir. THAT is what I am looking for here, and no one has come up with it.

I'm waiting.... http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/45.gif

gingi79
08-24-2009, 12:24 AM
For the record I reported certain posts for their obnoxious and rude comments. I don't hide behind my morals and I have a fiery temper but Suicide didnt deserve the attack.

I say this because while he is a fiery guy, the man makes point. It is easy to pretend we are tough while typing words. However, the Squeeze wasn't being a tough guy in saying he would hold on tight to a bat. I would to. Suicide has been nothing but honest and true in his posts and the Red Sox were wrong in taking the fans bat. It's messed up to steal someones property like that. I can only hope a million dollar lawsuit is placed against the Sox and the Usher in question.

Sorry to all fellow forum members who disagree. How about we just agree to disagree? Suicide and I feel like the fan who was molested for his bat got the short end of the stick. Disagree with us? Ok, you are wrong but ok

chakes89
08-24-2009, 12:25 AM
Why are you so worried about this?

Chances are, it will never happen to you and the situation will not come up.

murfsteve25
08-24-2009, 04:02 AM
Thanks to everyone who has shared their inputs. We have provided a lot of educated opinions on this matter.

This thread is starting to get a little heated. While we can go back and forth all year long on the morals or lagality of what to do in this situation...the question we've come up with is....

IS THERE ANY WRITTEN RULE WHERE A FAN MUST RETURN A BAT THAT ENDS UP IN THE STANDS??

So far the answer to this question is no.

mattmueller
08-24-2009, 06:38 AM
All:

Yes, there is a written rule, or perhaps several rules or laws about a fan taking a bat that ends up in the stands. Just look to your local, state, and federal laws under theft. It is not your property, so if the team or any of their employees or agents determine they want their property back, they have the right to do so. It is their property, period. Just because there is no sign posted saying that you can't take the bat home doesn't mean it is yours. Is there a sign at Walmart that says you can't take things home without paying for it? No, because everybody knows that is theft.

Matt

metsbats
08-24-2009, 07:05 AM
Why are you so worried about this?

Chances are, it will never happen to you and the situation will not come up.

I totally agree. I"ve never caught a foul ball in my 40 years of attending games and the bats don't fly up to cheap seats.

murfsteve25
08-24-2009, 09:11 AM
All:

Is there a sign at Walmart that says you can't take things home without paying for it? No, because everybody knows that is theft.

Matt

I see the point you are trying to get at Mattmueller, but your example is totally irrelevant. This situation has nothing to do with a fan walking into a stadium and knabbing bats or other equipment off the field or out of the dugout.
A fan sitting in his seat (that he paid for) watching the game and all of a sudden a bat flying out of the hands of a professional athelete hitting him is WAY different than some jerk walking into wal-mart and grabbing items off a shelf and walking out. At no point are the 2 situations related.
The example you gave involves the intent to steal at a store. The situation the rest of us are talking about on here is something being thrown at a fan at a baseball game.

NYCrulesU
08-24-2009, 09:17 AM
All:

Yes, there is a written rule, or perhaps several rules or laws about a fan taking a bat that ends up in the stands. Just look to your local, state, and federal laws under theft. It is not your property, so if the team or any of their employees or agents determine they want their property back, they have the right to do so. It is their property, period. Just because there is no sign posted saying that you can't take the bat home doesn't mean it is yours. Is there a sign at Walmart that says you can't take things home without paying for it? No, because everybody knows that is theft.

Matt

Pretty much the point of my post. The bat is the teams property. If they say they want it back, you'll give it back or they'll escort you from the stadium empty handed. This entire thread has turned into a senseless arguement because a few don't seem to get reality, they are obsessed with the whole "finders keepers" mentality. Which, btw, doesn't not apply in this or many other facets of adult life.

yanks12025
08-24-2009, 11:01 AM
Man this past weekend showed why the red sox and their fans are the least classy organization/fans in the game. First they rip a bat from a fan without seeing if he was alright. Then the fans still chant "You Took Steroids" to A-rod, this is after we now learn that David Ortiz took steroids. And i guess they sell t-shirts at the stadium that says A-rod likes to take it up the a**. What a joke of franchise and fan base.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 11:19 AM
Pretty much the point of my post. The bat is the teams property. If they say they want it back, you'll give it back or they'll escort you from the stadium empty handed. This entire thread has turned into a senseless arguement because a few don't seem to get reality, they are obsessed with the whole "finders keepers" mentality. Which, btw, doesn't not apply in this or many other facets of adult life.

Where's your proof, NYCrulesU?

You guys can come up with all of these rediculous examples that are completely unrelated to the act of a bat flying into the stands.....and you can state whatever your feelings are about logic, theft, the theory of relativity, whatever......but you have yet to show one shread of evidence that there is a written rule that states if a bat flies into the stands, you HAVE TO give it back.

It is NOT theft. That's absurb. You didn't jump the fence and run into the dugout and grab it out of the rack and take off with a trail of security on your tail. It is an incident of pure chance at a baseball game. And I say if the player is inept at hanging onto his own bat, thereby placing the fans in danger by hurling it into the seats.....the least he can do is walk over to the batboy who, having just grabbed another $60.00 bat out of the rack, will hand him another, and try a little harder to do his job without endangering the very fans who pay him his fat contract.

If a security guard comes at me because I am hanging onto a bat that was just airborn into the seats......right at me......they will NOT be taking if from me, PERIOD. I don't care what your perception is, what law you THINK I'm breaking, or how attached the overpayed multi-millionaire baseball player is to his game prepared bat.....it's MINE! That's the way it goes, and it is a very rare occurance. So for the last time, the player, the team personal, and security, should just back off and allow the fan to keep the bat. Otherwise, they should have the snot sued out of them.

I can't wait for that to occur one day so we can get our answer once and for all, since no one here has supplied anything but an opinion.

In law....."possession is nine tenths of the law". Once it's in my hands by no act of my own, thereby completely eliminated any "intent" on my part of possessing it, it's a public relations play. You want to take it from me?......get ready for the grief it will cause. Add to that the danger involved with a bat coming at you like Tommy Lasorda coaching third base......

Cold dead hands, baby.

http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/45.gif wake me up with you guys prove me wrong..... http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/28.gif

TFig27
08-24-2009, 11:24 AM
Here's how to keep a bat:

1) Catch bat

2) Stick bat in your pants

3) Smile and say "come and get it"

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 11:36 AM
Here's how to keep a bat:

1) Catch bat

2) Stick bat in your pants

3) Smile and say "come and get it"


THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!!!! That's the American way of doing things!!! http://www.chatsmileysemoticons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/yahoo-messenger-hidden-emoticons-usa-flag.gif;)

Bobby Jenks
08-24-2009, 12:29 PM
Well my understanding that it at the players discretion to keep or let the fan have it. I was at the Braves/Marlins game yesterday and Adam LeRoche let go of his bat. The bat hit someone, the usher took the bat to the dugout and the same bat went back up the stands and they had to chase down the guy who had been hit because he was getting medical attention.

camarokids
08-24-2009, 12:33 PM
Instead of all the back and forth talking/bickering... How about someone contact the stadium(s) and ask for their policy?

I know this would be too easy but it would settle the question once and for all.....

Then we can kill this thread which has turned into a waste of space......

mattmueller
08-24-2009, 12:56 PM
Squeeze:

The facts have clearly been articulated as to why taking a bat is theft.

Save for your expressing your opinion as to added risk spectators take entering a ballgame (which is disclaimed on the back of every ticket and legally irrelevant to property rights), ineptness of a hitter to hold the bat (irrelevant to property rights), the player's salary (irrelevant to property rights), or what is the best public relations move for the player or team (also irrelevant to property rights), you have not provided any evidence to support your illogical claim that title to a bat changes just because it crosses some imaginary line and ends up in the stands.

As indicated in the Bonds ball legal briefs and arguments (which I will assume either you have not read or read and did not comprehend), the only way that title to the property could change is if it is determined that the owner has abandonded that property. To reasonable people, since there is no consistent history of teams or players abandoning bats that enter the stands, and the transfer of the property once it moves to the stands is not codified anywhere (signage, tickets, announcements), when they ask for it back, they are enforcing their rights to the property.

So what does all that mean? If they ask for it bat, they are asking you for their property back. If you determine that you are going to keep the bat, you are stealing it.

mattmueller
08-24-2009, 01:01 PM
Sorry, above you should be addressed to Squeeze and other like minded persons. Didn't mean to single anybody out.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 02:25 PM
Squeeze:

The facts have clearly been articulated as to why taking a bat is theft.

Save for your expressing your opinion as to added risk spectators take entering a ballgame (which is disclaimed on the back of every ticket and legally irrelevant to property rights), ineptness of a hitter to hold the bat (irrelevant to property rights), the player's salary (irrelevant to property rights), or what is the best public relations move for the player or team (also irrelevant to property rights), you have not provided any evidence to support your illogical claim that title to a bat changes just because it crosses some imaginary line and ends up in the stands.

As indicated in the Bonds ball legal briefs and arguments (which I will assume either you have not read or read and did not comprehend), the only way that title to the property could change is if it is determined that the owner has abandonded that property. To reasonable people, since there is no consistent history of teams or players abandoning bats that enter the stands, and the transfer of the property once it moves to the stands is not codified anywhere (signage, tickets, announcements), when they ask for it back, they are enforcing their rights to the property.

So what does all that mean? If they ask for it bat, they are asking you for their property back. If you determine that you are going to keep the bat, you are stealing it.


Matt,

What's up? Can't you ever back off and be man about it when you're wrong? I do.

The reference you are talking about in regards to the "Bonds ball" is completely out of context, like ever other aspect of your argument. We are not talking about an argument between two fans, and ownership rights of the ball they both claim to have. Why not get off your soapbox long enough to understand the facts of what you're arguing about before you try to instill your virtues onto someone else while referencing something with no connection.

We are talking about a haphazzard piece of baseball equipment flying into the stands.

My argument is that is it customary that a ball hit into the stands, or a bat that flies into the stands is fair game to keep. I have asked that someone present some evidence in ANY form to prove my opinion wrong. No one has. That's all......

If it were a glove, or a catcher's shin guard or chest protector.....yeah, I would say that is an essential piece to continuing the game and therefore should be given back.

A baseball? A bat?

NOTE TO MLB AND YOUR PLAYERS: IF YOU CAN'T HANG ONTO YOUR BAT AND YOU FLAIL IT INTO THE SEATS......KISS IT GOODBYE LIKE YOUR HOME RUN BALLS, AND MOVE ON! LOVE, THE FANS.

NYCrulesU
08-24-2009, 03:04 PM
Matt, you're wasting your breath lol Squeeze is clearly right (because he says so). To hell with decades of teams getting bats back from fans, via an usher and/or team rep. His greed and lust for a piece of game used memorabilia is so overwhelming that he'll ignore all laws of common sense and ballpark etiquette.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 03:08 PM
OK.....here's some interesting info....


I called Dodger Stadium, asked a front office person with clubhouse knowledge, the question: "What is the policy of the Stadium, management, MLB, etc., if a player at bat loses his grip of his bat and it flies into the stands and a fan gets ahold of it, does the fan have to give it back, or is it a souvenir?"

Answer: "Only if the player demands it back. It is his property, as the players buy their own bats. The Dodgers have no rule that the bat be given up, and may be kept as a souvenir if the player does not request it back."

I took it one step further, and asked what would happen to the fan if he refused to hand it over if the player wanted it back.

Answer: "He would most likely be offered another item in exchange for it by the player. This is usually what happens if the player wants it back."

I asked further...."What if he still refused? Is he breaking any laws?"

Answer: "The player would probably let them keep it, but there is a chance they may be escorted out of the park."

I ended by asking....."Could the fan be permanently banned by Dodger management for not returning the bat?"

Answer: "No, not for something like that. There is nothing they instigated to deserve bannishment from the park. To be honest, in most cases where a bat flies into the crowd, the player is just happy if no one was hurt. If the fan returns the bat with no hesitation, the player usually will send something to them like a signed ball or another bat. Other times, they may be so relieved that they just let the fan keep it. I remember one time, years ago, a case where someone was hurt. After they were taken to receive medical attention, the player let them keep the bat and signed it with a personal note of apology to the fan.

He couldn't recall the player, or what year it was. Too bad, I'd love to see that bat!

Then I called Angel Stadium.....asked the same fiorst question.....

ANSWER: If a bat flies into the stands and a fan ends up with it, it's a souvenir. The fans are immediately escorted to GUEST SERVICES where the bat is recorded and held in safe keeping for that fan until the game is over. Then they may retrieve their souvenir at that time before leaving the park. The reason that policy is in place is because there are no bats allowed in the stands during the game.


So, mattmueller, your turn. Let's hear some facts about your "theft" theory, please?


Like I said, "Possession is nine tenth's of the law". If one is lucky enough to catch a bat hurling into the seats as a fan at a game, it is apparently up to the player to allow the fan to keep it. But it sure seems like, as I have eluded to from the beginning, if you are astute enough to say "It's MINE!", you have about a 99% chance of keeping it. Don't let those meannies in Boston, the one's wearing the "SECURITY" shirts in Boston who have apparently scared the manhood out of eisenreich take the players bat from you. Because let's face the facts, forum members, the player, if confronted with "NO, it's MINE" is not going to have you manhadled and the bat pried from your grip. Thay would never live it down. And for a $60.00 bat, they'd have to be crazy to even think it.

Vintagedeputy
08-24-2009, 03:41 PM
God I love this forum....

cjclong
08-24-2009, 03:45 PM
Mattmueller is still correct on this theft theory. The Dodger person said the player would probably LET HIM KEEP IT. The operative phrase here is LET. If the player or team own the bat it is theirs. They decide whether they want to give it away or not, but it is THEIR DECISION to let a fan keep it or not, not the fan's. A bat a player tosses into the stands accidentally is not being given away. The player or team CAN give it away, but they don't HAVE to. Squeeze talks about the player throwing his bat at a fan. The player is not throwing his bat at a fan. He accidentally let go of it. If a player threw his bat at a fan it would be assault or attempted assault. When the Rangers Frankie Francisco threw a chair at a fan in Oakland several years ago he was filed on for assault and convicted. If a player was signing autographs before a game for fans and had his glove under his arm as some do and accidentally dropped it into the stands a fan would not have the right to say "its in the stands" and run off with it. The same with a bat that accidentally goes there. A player can give a glove or bat or anything else to a fan. But a fan cannot take something that is not given. Don't get me wrong, I think it is great for fans to get to keep the bat and I hope that is what most teams do. I saw Josh Hamilton throw a bat far into the stands at a Rangers game this year. The fan got to keep it and the usher only came over to check to be sure no one was hurt. That was GREAT! But if security comes to get a bat and you fight them for it you are going to find your "possssion is nine tenths of the law" is pure fiction. I really advise against getting in a fight as you are likely to face serious criminal charges with no valid legal defense.

Mauer7
08-24-2009, 03:48 PM
That Dodgers rep is full of crap. The players don't buy their own bats. The TEAM buys them. I know this for a fact.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 03:56 PM
Matt, you're wasting your breath lol Squeeze is clearly right (because he says so). To hell with decades of teams getting bats back from fans, via an usher and/or team rep. His greed and lust for a piece of game used memorabilia is so overwhelming that he'll ignore all laws of common sense and ballpark etiquette.

Actually, I feel like I am one who is wasting mine.

If you guys want to stop all the hostility long enough to remember we are all here to enjoy our hobby, and to share our knowledge with eachother to make that experience better, then maybe we can get something accomplished here.

NYCdrulesonU.....my greed and lust for game used items is satisfied by pulling out my check book and paying for them after working hard to earn the funds in the first place, not for some other silly non-fact you choose to throw out in anger because you disagree.

We are referring to a rare happenstance in the event one of us was lucky enough to be at the end of the flailing "rainbow" (um...."bat", eisenreich.....is what I was eluding to). Ballpark ettiquette? That a whole different story......which I looked into, made a call, and received some answers on. Maybe you could take a moment to read the answers I received, and learn something from it instead of picking "sides" and coming in like a hand grenade.

We're here to share knowledge and experiences we've had in the game used hobby. Agreement, or disagreement, on an issue is a healthy thing. A good debate is educational for everyone who takes the time to read it.

But to state I am going against "laws of common sense" are laughable. I wrote the book on common sense partner. If you want to go down that road, expect to be changing tires often.

All I did was ask for some proof that I was wrong in my opinion on a theory of a bat going into the crowd, and what one can rightfully do in the event they are confronted with that circumstance. What i received was statements that were incorrect in fact, that eventually grew into an angry confrontation. All that will lead to is "Last edited...." exerpts, so why bother?

Bring us some intelligent banter. Add to everyone's intellect.....not their emotional dark side.

Peace fellow forum members, let's keep it friendly.:)

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 04:04 PM
That Dodgers rep is full of crap. The players don't buy their own bats. The TEAM buys them. I know this for a fact.

OK, I'll happily defer this "fact" to someone who can properly answer it beyond any of our understandings.....

Is BMH available to share some insight here? BRIAN, please, what is the truth on this? Do the players buy their bats, or does the team they are contracted to play for pay for them?

Possibly the answer lies (again) somewhere inbetween? Maybe they are purchased up to a certain allotted amount (dollars or count) for the player, and anything additional bats ordered is the players responsibility?
I do not know the answer to this.

We may need to ask Brian on a whole separate thread, because he may not be reading this one....

dodgersfan
08-24-2009, 04:09 PM
You are 100% correct...back in 2001-2003 they were buying the bats anywhere between 35-45 if I remember correctly directly from the bat companys.

Here is MLB info if someone wants to give them a phone call.



http://www.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/index.jsp






That Dodgers rep is full of crap. The players don't buy their own bats. The TEAM buys them. I know this for a fact.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 04:22 PM
Mattmueller is still correct on this theft theory. The Dodger person said the player would probably LET HIM KEEP IT. The operative phrase here is LET. If the player or team own the bat it is theirs. They decide whether they want to give it away or not, but it is THEIR DECISION to let a fan keep it or not, not the fan's. A bat a player tosses into the stands accidentally is not being given away. The player or team CAN give it away, but they don't HAVE to. Squeeze talks about the player throwing his bat at a fan. The player is not throwing his bat at a fan. He accidentally let go of it. If a player threw his bat at a fan it would be assault or attempted assault. When the Rangers Frankie Francisco threw a chair at a fan in Oakland several years ago he was filed on for assault and convicted. If a player was signing autographs before a game for fans and had his glove under his arm as some do and accidentally dropped it into the stands a fan would not have the right to say "its in the stands" and run off with it. The same with a bat that accidentally goes there. A player can give a glove or bat or anything else to a fan. But a fan cannot take something that is not given. Don't get me wrong, I think it is great for fans to get to keep the bat and I hope that is what most teams do. I saw Josh Hamilton throw a bat far into the stands at a Rangers game this year. The fan got to keep it and the usher only came over to check to be sure no one was hurt. That was GREAT! But if security comes to get a bat and you fight them for it you are going to find your "possssion is nine tenths of the law" is pure fiction. I really advise against getting in a fight as you are likely to face serious criminal charges with no valid legal defense.


cjclong.......WHERE did I talk of a player THROWING A BAT AT A FAN??? Every reference I have made has been consistent, and in the same manner and context....."A player at bat flailing a bat into the crowd" meant accidentally losing his grip.

Partner, I would never instigate a fight over ANYTHING with security, let alone a bat. I just wouldn't let go simply because a security personel was insisting I do, for reasons stated earlier.

The rest of your point, although correct, is rendered meaningless to my discussion based on that alone. Please, no need to bring up the "glove" dropping into the seats scenario again. I have stated more than twice I am ONLY referring to baseballs and bats entering the seats.....NOTHING else.

Look, I called Dodger Stadium, and Anaheim Stadium for answers. Until Brian Hillerich tells us otherwise (that in fact the teams pay for the bats), then I'm sticking to what I was told by representatives of the MLB franchises.

I totally agree with you on your other comments.

Jules9
08-24-2009, 04:27 PM
If a player is walking by the stands and a gust of wind blows his hat off and it lands on someone's lap in the first row, does it mean the person gets to keep the hat.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 04:33 PM
You are 100% correct...back in 2001-2003 they were buying the bats anywhere between 35-45 if I remember correctly directly from the bat companys.

Here is MLB info if someone wants to give them a phone call.



http://www.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/about_mlb/index.jsp


WHOM......was buying bats directly from the bat company's......the players, or the team?

Were they "team index" bats?.....or directly for the player whose name was on it? You guys keep throwing out bits and pieces of "fact", but can't connect the dots. These halve-truths or piecemeal tidbits just add to the confusion. And therfore this thread is getting off track.

Your link is helpful for.....what exactly? I called two MLB front offices and got my answers. I shared them with you. It appears it was like sharing roasted turkey with a house full of Vegans, but I tried.

dodgersfan
08-24-2009, 04:35 PM
Jim Tyler, Baltimore's clubhouse man, says the team orders 11-12 dozen bats a season per player; it was half that amount 20 years ago. The cost of bats for the team has risen 50% over the last five years, traveling secretary Phil Itzoe says.

here is the whole story.......



http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2005-05-24-cover-brokenbats_x.htm








WHOM......was buying bats directly from the bat company's......the players, or the team?

Were they "team index" bats?.....or directly for the player whose name was on it? You guys keep throwing out bits and pieces of "fact", but can't connect the dots. These halve-truths or piecemeal tidbits just add to the confusion. And therfore this thread is getting off track.

Your link is helpful for.....what exactly? I called two MLB front offices and got my answers. I shared them with you. It appears it was like sharing roasted turkey with a house full of Vegans, but I tried.

dodgersfan
08-24-2009, 04:44 PM
Here is some other info from the internet.




http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070804185230AA09qje



Rudy

cjclong
08-24-2009, 04:48 PM
I thought I remembered your using that phrase about a player throwing a bat at a fan from the previous thread on the same subject, If not, I was incorrect, but the reasoning stands. If you have something and lose it it doesn't belong to someone else baring a great passage of time in some cases. I would love to catch a bat at a Rangers game from Hamilton, Young, Pudge or Andrus and if I do I certainly hope I get to keep it and will hang on to it until I am told by someone in authority I can't. You were so vehement about "from my cold dead hands" that I wanted to warn you and everyone else that it is not worth it to get in a fight with ballpark employees if they demand the bat back because you could wind up in serous legal trouble. That said, I hope your favorite player tosses a bat your way some time and you get to keep it.

dodgersfan
08-24-2009, 04:53 PM
More at stake for bat makers
There were ramifications for bat manufacturers in the new regulations, too.
Their license fee to MLB was raised to $10,000 from $5,000 to help with research expenses. And they were told to increase their liability insurance to $10 million from $5 million, which was a substantial increase in premiums. As a result eight of the 32 licensed bat makers last year have dropped out, with five new ones signing up.
In addition, manufacturers raised the price of their bats — Louisville Slugger to $95 from $67 — and those costs go to the bottom line of the team, which buys bats for its players.



here is the whole story.......

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/2009-03-11-maple-bats_N.htm







WHOM......was buying bats directly from the bat company's......the players, or the team?

Were they "team index" bats?.....or directly for the player whose name was on it? You guys keep throwing out bits and pieces of "fact", but can't connect the dots. These halve-truths or piecemeal tidbits just add to the confusion. And therfore this thread is getting off track.

Your link is helpful for.....what exactly? I called two MLB front offices and got my answers. I shared them with you. It appears it was like sharing roasted turkey with a house full of Vegans, but I tried.

dodgersfan
08-24-2009, 04:59 PM
The Dodgers,sorry.







WHOM......was buying bats directly from the bat company's......the players, or the team?

Were they "team index" bats?.....or directly for the player whose name was on it? You guys keep throwing out bits and pieces of "fact", but can't connect the dots. These halve-truths or piecemeal tidbits just add to the confusion. And therfore this thread is getting off track.

Your link is helpful for.....what exactly? I called two MLB front offices and got my answers. I shared them with you. It appears it was like sharing roasted turkey with a house full of Vegans, but I tried.

dodgersfan
08-24-2009, 05:04 PM
Game issued bats directly from the bat manufactures with the players name on them.
I was in Mike Nygrens/Ex director of merchandise for the Dodgers when some of the bats use to come via UPS.


Hope this helps a bit?


Rudy







WHOM......was buying bats directly from the bat company's......the players, or the team?

Were they "team index" bats?.....or directly for the player whose name was on it? You guys keep throwing out bits and pieces of "fact", but can't connect the dots. These halve-truths or piecemeal tidbits just add to the confusion. And therfore this thread is getting off track.

Your link is helpful for.....what exactly? I called two MLB front offices and got my answers. I shared them with you. It appears it was like sharing roasted turkey with a house full of Vegans, but I tried.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 05:06 PM
Rudy (dodgersfan).......thanks for the attempts, but the article you referred too also refers to players buying their own bats.

In both cases, it isn't clear on who is paying for them.

There are "team index" bats, and there are bats ordered by the players themselves, so we haven't accomplished anything here, except prove that it is probably both.

Again, I'm not sure it really matters who paid for the bat, or whose property it is when it goes flying into the stands.

The proper "etiquette" at that point is for the player to allow the fan to keep, in my opinion. If he insists on having it back, well all I say is I have yet to see a disagreeing fan sent away in the hands of security, banned from attending other games, or arrested for theft.

On a final note, did my best to put it in blck and white ver batim, and I believe I did an extremely accurate job. Think what you will......just please keep your window open to allow proper ventilation from all the smoke.

Bobby Jenks
08-24-2009, 05:52 PM
Here is some other info from the internet.




http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070804185230AA09qje



Rudy
I know you did not just use Yahoo Answers as a source! I could see the teams buying PRO STOCK LVS bats or in the Marlins Farms, Rawlings Big Sticks, but no Marucci or Old Hickory.

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 06:05 PM
I know you did not just use Yahoo Answers as a source! I could see the teams buying PRO STOCK LVS bats or in the Marlins Farms, Rawlings Big Sticks, but no Marucci or Old Hickory.


Thank you......I got a good laugh out of that, myself.

But Bobby, Rudy is a decent guy and he meant well. And some of the links he posted are accurate in his points. He did a good job of backing up his comments. Maybe a couple others here could follow his lead?

chakes89
08-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Glad I missed my stories today

The show on here today has been better

More Drama and fewer implants (Hopefully :D )

xpress34
08-24-2009, 08:37 PM
Wow! :eek:

8 Pages of this so far....

I will try to keep an even keel here and not try to offend anyone's sensibilities...

1st off - I have to disagree with the use of the word THEFT by many here

2nd - I have to disagree with the use of the terms 'My Right to Keep' and the others...

3rd - (this may have already been addressed - edits?) Some players DO BUY their own bats. Some are purchased by the teams...

That said, as some of you know, I have worked for Nike, Rawlings, and even for/at Coors Field and have been fortunate enough to meet and get to know some players over the years...

I have been to about 1/3 of the MLB stadiums and have seen various conduct with 'tossed' bats... some stadiums let you keep it, some come to retrieve it, and some let the player make the call... but I have as yet to see or hear ANY Stadium make an announcement - other than in reference to BALLS - about keeping any items leaving the playing field. I believe that MLB writes the 'Legal Copy' that is announced at each park to make sure their is continuity in the MLB.

Should you be able to keep the bat? My belief is YES, by all means, but I understand if a player wants it back - but NOT the way the Red Sox handled it. Is it your RIGHT to keep the bat? Nothing has ever been printed or stated that I have seen that confirms that. Is it THEFT if you don't want to give it back - absolutely not... as was previously stated, you had no intent, NOR did you commit an act that caused the item to come into your possession other than protecting yourself and possibly those around you. Unfortunately, it's a sticky situation and MY suggestion would be to check with each park you attend a game at to see what the 'ground rules' are at their park. In case some of you don't know, that is part of what happens at home plate when line-ups are exchanged - the umpires and managers discuss the 'ground rules' for the park - i.e. with all the new park designs, what exactly constitutes a HR in certain parst of the park... such as the Rox vs the Phils in 2007 in Phillie and the 'doubles' that were called because of the 'flower boxes' in front of the stands. At that time, the ball had to clear the fence behind the flower box to be a HR even though it 'left the yard' and was deposited in the flower bed.

As far as Players buying their own stuff... many do. If a player has the team order a 'team index' or 'standard' model bat with their name and such on it fromone of the Big Boys (LVS. Rawlings. Mizuno), YES - the team usually foots the bill. If the player wants a special made bat or custom made from one of the Specialty makers (Diablo, Kissimee, Hickory, etc) they will usually have to pay for it themselves.

While working for Rawlings, I hand turned a matched pair of bats for Clint Barmes (1 for him and 1 for me to have him sign). He told me that if I can get MLB certified, he would sign with me and pay me to make his bats. Just because a maker is MLB Certified doesn't mean the team will purchase from them for the player. During the same conversation, I asked Clint about a jersey 9this was his rookie year in 2005) and he told me he could get meone, but he would need a check made out to the Rockies as they charge players for any uniform items that they give away... the uniforms are NOT the players - they belong to the team since the team purchases them. There are exceptions to this rule as well - Nolan ryan purchased his own Game uniforms from Goodman & Sons instead of wearing the Rawlings and Russell unis that the Rangers and Astros and Angels provided.

So, what is the point of all of this???

The point is that the bats may belong to the team, or they may belong to the PLAYER and therefore, the whole 'Who owns a bat that goes into the stands?' question gets even more muddled...

Therefore, I stand by my statement that you should check with each stadium you attend just for clarification.

Just my .02

- Chris

mattmueller
08-24-2009, 09:06 PM
Squeeze:

Unfortunately, I can tell from your response that you in fact have not read the Bonds ball decision. If you had, you would have a) broadened your educational horizons a bit with what was not a bad read, and b) it would have been clear to you why that case is 100% relevant to the subject at hand. With that, and given that I am a nice guy who tries to help when I can, let me try to drop a little knowledge. A Cliff's notes of the case if you will. As always, I would value any constructive feedback as to where I may interpret the following incorrectly, or have a bad recollection of the facts (I have not read the documents referenced below in some time, but I believe my understanding is correct).

In the Bonds case, the key element that the court had to decide before determining which of the fans who claimed the ball as their property, was to determine if, and then at what point the ball ceased to become the property of MLB (in this case MLB because MLB provided the special DNA-linked balls). The key legal principle discussed and used in the findings in the legal brief by Judge Murphy (I think that was his name) in determining the ball became the property of the guy who came up with it was that of intentional abandonment. That means, MLB and its teams, based on prior actions and codification, has a history of not claiming balls as their property once it reached the stands. Therefore, a reasonable person would believe that once a ball reaches the stands, it has been intentionally abandoned by its prior owner, and ball becomes the property of the person who possessed it. From there the court looked at many different arguments as to which fan would keep the ball, which for our purposes is not relevant.

The key take away here is that the only reason the ball was deemed to have property transfered was because of the legal theory of intentional abandonment. In the judge's findings, he cites a legal note / paper (can't recall who wrote it), that discussed in detail the transfer of property in ball parks, history of it, violation, etc. It is this piece that the court found to provide the legal groundwork and precedent to rule for the Bonds case, and therefore with its use, provided case law for future similar matters, including bats, helmets, jeseys... anything else.

So what does this mean. Balls into the stands are deemed to be the property of the person who possesses it. Why? Because team/MLB has consistently not enforced its ownership rights, aka they have intentionally abandoned the ball. For all other items, given there is no codification (through signs, disclaimers on tickets, scoreboards etc saying "you can keep bats") if the owner asks for it back, the property remains with its owner - the team / player. So, if you insist on taking it, without the owner's permission, you are taking somebody else's property. That is theft.

Thank you for reading the whole thing.

Matt

suicide_squeeze
08-24-2009, 09:59 PM
First off, Chris (xpress34), thanks for the wonderful post, loaded with great little facts of what has been discussed....bnacked up by personal experience. This again is why it's so cool to be involved with this site.

I totally agree with you in every aspect of what you said. Even the part about you disagreeing with "My right to keep" part...;)

My whole argument is based on what I believed would be the outcome every single time if the fan who caught the bat coming his way in a flurry.......would just convincingly say "I caught it! I saved myself and everyone around me from injury, I think the least you guys can do is let me keep the bat." I believe 99.9% of the time, it would end that way.

I can't believe what this whole thread turned into. One little heated discussion goes south and turns into an argument.

And matt......you are a nice guy. Thank you fro taking the time to type your interpretation of the legal findings. You were correct in everything you stated.

But partner, I already knew all that. Honestly. And they were doing their due diligence in the legal process by properly laying the foundation for their final judgement. But again, I truly believe there is no relevance in this portion of the case to what we are talking about. Because we are not talking about what would happen if this went to court......we are talking about the decency and etiquette of a professional organization and player, who after putting a fan at risk, would have the odacity to then rip the "souvenir" from the hands of the fan like what happened in Boston.

But we all know how those Bostonians are.......

I do see your point, and your argument, Matt, and I have to say.....

on this thread, the award goes to Chris because his thread seems to have summarized the whole discussion as to what I really believe ALL of us think......It depends on what park your in, and which player it is.......and what happened when the bat flew into the crowd......and possibly what form of acceptance or lack there-of the fan who ends up with the bat takes in regards to returning it.

Congrats Chris......http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/trophy.gif

dodgersfan
08-24-2009, 10:19 PM
I tried.

Rudy





I know you did not just use Yahoo Answers as a source! I could see the teams buying PRO STOCK LVS bats or in the Marlins Farms, Rawlings Big Sticks, but no Marucci or Old Hickory.

mattmueller
08-25-2009, 06:27 AM
Squeeze:

You are now pushing it back to whether or not its a good PR move for the Sox to be so publicly aggressive in the defense of their property. Setting that aside, I will assume you are truthful in you statement that you were 100% familiar with the Bonds case, and ignore that it would seem odd for that to be true and then for you still repeatedly indicate that you wanted somebody to prove to you legally what you can't steal a bat. Anyhow, what happened in court has 100% ramifications for a bat incident. As I would be pretty sure there is no law anywhere that says "if you take a bat, it is theft", just because its pretty narrow and unique circumstances. So when you are on trial after being arrested for theft after taking a bat, the prosecution will demonstrate you stole the bat using the laws discussed above and if you have a good defense counsel, they will also likely try to make similar claims to it was abandoned property, you possess it, therefore you own it and no theft. That is how the legal system works, judicial branch interprets and rules on legislative system.

Anyhow, with that said and if you don't see it, I am done. As the great Flavor Flav said, I can't do nothin for you man.

Matt

BMH
08-25-2009, 07:02 AM
All of his bats are purchased by the team except the dozen I gave him during ST.

godwulf
08-25-2009, 09:19 AM
... but I have as yet to see or hear ANY Stadium make an announcement - other than in reference to BALLS - about keeping any items leaving the playing field.

It's not a Major League venue, but - especially as I just got ahold of the 2009 Arizona Fall League schedule, and that's where my head is at the moment - I just thought I would mention that at Phoenix Muni, where the Desert Dogs play, and the Oakland A's do Spring Training, they do specifically mention, in the PA announcements, that "fans are welcome to keep any balls or bats that go into the stands". The other ballparks in the League may do it, too, I'm not certain.

whatupyos
08-25-2009, 09:43 AM
It's not a Major League venue, but - especially as I just got ahold of the 2009 Arizona Fall League schedule, and that's where my head is at the moment - I just thought I would mention that at Phoenix Muni, where the Desert Dogs play, and the Oakland A's do Spring Training, they do specifically mention, in the PA announcements, that "fans are welcome to keep any balls or bats that go into the stands". The other ballparks in the League may do it, too, I'm not certain.


Glad you brought that up because they do that at the Oakland A's games as well.

Aaron

hblakewolf
08-25-2009, 10:19 AM
Glad you brought that up because they do that at the Oakland A's games as well.

Aaron

Aaron-

And before this thread takes a "legal" twist, see this:


Tie #1: In Sweeney v. Bettendorf, an eight year old girl in the stands at a professional minor league baseball game in Iowa was injured when a player lost control of his bat which traveled 120 feet and struck her in the head.
http://www.newyorkinjurycasesblog.com/uploads/image/baseball-bat.jpg
Tara Sweeney was on a field trip organized by her city parks department. Her injury case against the city was initially tossed out by the trial judge but an appeals court has now ruled (5-2) that the case may proceed to trial because the city had a duty to protect the child's safety at the ballpark and that a jury could find that parks employees put her in an unreasonably hazardous location to watch the game.

Lamenting this type of all too frequent lawsuit, Walter Olson at Overlawyered declares: "This time in Iowa." (http://overlawyered.com/2009/03/more-baseball-liability-woes/)
And writing for the Des Moines Register, Jared Strong quotes a dissenting judge: "There is no joy on this day around Iowa's ballparks." (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090314/NEWS/903140337)
My prediction: defense verdict at trial.Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

suicide_squeeze
08-25-2009, 04:33 PM
Squeeze:

You are now pushing it back to whether or not its a good PR move for the Sox to be so publicly aggressive in the defense of their property. Setting that aside, I will assume you are truthful in you statement that you were 100% familiar with the Bonds case, and ignore that it would seem odd for that to be true and then for you still repeatedly indicate that you wanted somebody to prove to you legally what you can't steal a bat. Anyhow, what happened in court has 100% ramifications for a bat incident. As I would be pretty sure there is no law anywhere that says "if you take a bat, it is theft", just because its pretty narrow and unique circumstances. So when you are on trial after being arrested for theft after taking a bat, the prosecution will demonstrate you stole the bat using the laws discussed above and if you have a good defense counsel, they will also likely try to make similar claims to it was abandoned property, you possess it, therefore you own it and no theft. That is how the legal system works, judicial branch interprets and rules on legislative system.

Anyhow, with that said and if you don't see it, I am done. As the great Flavor Flav said, I can't do nothin for you man.

Matt


OK matt....

I'm man enough to admit that, essentially, if a bat comes into the stands and you catch it, that there may be a "right" for either the player, or a proper representative from the team to come back and ask for it.

But you need to understand it is obvious that there are different policies regarding this event (a bat flying into the crowd) in different parks.

In NONE of the cases would I ever expect a player, or a team or it's rep, to cry "theft" in the event a fan has a hold on it and won't let it go. We have had many posts here that have painted the picture of what exactly the case is. They're all different, with different ownership rights, and different circumstances. But they also have similarities. And it's my contention that one common theme during this event is that the fan is usually caught off guard.

My argument from the beginning has been....if it comes into the crowd, it's YOURS! Even though, legally, you appear to be correct that the bat is owned by either the player or the team (and thanks Brian H. for sounded in!!!), I would still argue that it would be a cold day in hell before any team or player would ever take it much past the first few moments of a fan laying his/her claim.....er.....desire.......to keep a fat that accidentally flew into his direction. The bad PR the team (or player) would endure wouldn't be worth it. To take it to the level of "theft" is laughable.

The situation we have been speaking of historically appears to be best handled by the team and/or player obliging to give up the bat to the fan. Never once have I heard any talk of "theft". That just seems silly....it's a baseball game with the paying public who supports the teams/players. A bat.....they got to give it up as a souvenir in those few and far between incidents where the player accidentally loses his grip and it ends up in the seats.

Are we cool?

suicide_squeeze
08-25-2009, 04:45 PM
Aaron-

And before this thread takes a "legal" twist, see this:


Tie #1: In Sweeney v. Bettendorf, an eight year old girl in the stands at a professional minor league baseball game in Iowa was injured when a player lost control of his bat which traveled 120 feet and struck her in the head.
http://www.newyorkinjurycasesblog.com/uploads/image/baseball-bat.jpg
Tara Sweeney was on a field trip organized by her city parks department. Her injury case against the city was initially tossed out by the trial judge but an appeals court has now ruled (5-2) that the case may proceed to trial because the city had a duty to protect the child's safety at the ballpark and that a jury could find that parks employees put her in an unreasonably hazardous location to watch the game.

Lamenting this type of all too frequent lawsuit, Walter Olson at Overlawyered declares: "This time in Iowa." (http://overlawyered.com/2009/03/more-baseball-liability-woes/)
And writing for the Des Moines Register, Jared Strong quotes a dissenting judge: "There is no joy on this day around Iowa's ballparks." (http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090314/NEWS/903140337)
My prediction: defense verdict at trial.Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

"Overlawyered" is a good term......I like it.

But Howard, just look at all of those "thieves" ready to pounce on their game used collectible that, obviously, all those greedy b@st@rds came to the park for!! After it lands......and it is removed from between the 4th and 5th rib of the lucky recipient, they had dare better not argue with security when they approach for the wooden spear that they want the darn thing, because BY GOD the team and player have ownership rights to IT!!!:rolleyes: (Just playing with you, matt)

I think we've all learned something from this post.

A) Team representatives in Boston are as miserable as the 86 year curse.

B) The place to go if you are seeking a game used bat for a souvenir is either Anahiem Stadium, or any one of a dozen or so minor league affiliates that state so on their premises.

Everywhere else?......


"From my cold, dead hands, baby!" ;)

xpress34
08-25-2009, 08:52 PM
First off, Chris (xpress34), thanks for the wonderful post, loaded with great little facts of what has been discussed....bnacked up by personal experience. This again is why it's so cool to be involved with this site.

I totally agree with you in every aspect of what you said. Even the part about you disagreeing with "My right to keep" part...;)
Congrats Chris......http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/trophy.gif

HMMM hmmm... I would like to thank the Academy, Suicide, MLB... :D