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Eric
08-02-2009, 09:01 AM
Feds hunt for fraud at National Sports Collectors Convention
BY MICHAEL O'KEEFFE
DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER
Sunday, August 2nd 2009, 4:00 AM

CLEVELAND - Federal agents investigating fraud in the sports memorabilia business roamed the aisles of the National Sports Collectors Convention for the second consecutive year, issuing subpoenas to hobby executives for auction invoices and other records.

Two agents - one from the FBI, the other from the United States Postal Service - also questioned auction house officials, dealers and authenticators on Friday and yesterday at the National, the hobby's largest annual sports memorabilia show, held this year at the International Exposition Center near Cleveland Hopkins International Airport.

The list of executives who received subpoenas or were interviewed by the agents represents some of the biggest names and largest businesses in sports memorabilia, including Grey Flannel, Heritage Auctions, B&E Collectibles, Historic Auctions, Hunt Auctions, SportsCard Guaranty, Lelands, Professional Sports Authenticators and Legendary Auctions.

"They wanted to talk about the show," said Chris Ivy, director of sports auctions for Heritage. "That's all I can say about it."

An industry executive told the Daily News that the agents are gathering information about auction houses, dealers and authenticators who knowingly sell counterfeit jerseys, bogus game-used bats and other tainted memorabilia. The executives who received subpoenas or were questioned by the feds are not necessarily targets of the investigation, he said, but they may have information that will assist the agents in what has been a two-year probe.

The Daily News first reported in July of 2007 that the Chicago division of the FBI, whose "Operation Foul Ball" smashed a multistate autograph forgery ring during the 1990s, initiated an investigation into shill bidding and fraud by Mastro Auctions, once sports memorabilia's largest auction house. Other sports memorabilia businesses may also be targets of the two-year-old probe.

Mastro Auctions folded earlier this year, and several former employees, including president Doug Allen, bought the company's assets and formed Legendary Auctions. Allen was issued a subpoena just before the start of his company's auction Friday night at the House of Blues in downtown Cleveland.

In addition to the Chicago-based investigation, a New York FBI agent is also trying to determine if historic documents pulled from Hunt's All-Star Game auction two weeks ago - letters to baseball pioneer Harry Wright - were stolen from the New York Public Library. As the Daily News reported last week, rapper-turned-baseball historian Peter Nash has tried to link Rob Lifson of Robert Edwards Auctions to the stolen documents in what sources called a revenge campaign after Nash lost a bitter court battle with Lifson. The FBI agent, according to the sources, is investigating whether Nash or Lifson has sold or distributed stolen memorabilia, an allegation Lifson has strongly denied.

Collectors and dealers who attended the 2008 National in Rosemont, Ill., said the presence of the federal investigators at the convention caused consternation among some on hand. Mastro officials abandoned their booth, leaving just one employee to hold down the fort for much of the show.
But the dealers and collectors who recognized the agents seemed downright comfortable with them this year. The feds, young men dressed casually, looked more like sports fans than law-enforcement agents, and they moved easily from booth to booth, examining display cases.

Many dealers said the nation's tough economic times dampened attendance and spending at the National, but the recession did not seem to be an issue for many wealthy collectors.

A restored T206 Honus Wagner card, for example, sold for more than $200,000 at Legendary Auctions' House of Blues event. The winning bidder was a dealer named Chris Galbreath. Galbreath later said he purchased the card on behalf of John Rogers, the Arkansas businessman who spent $1.62 million last year on a T206 Wagner at Mastro's 2008 National auction.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2009/08/02/2009-08-02_feds_hunt.html#ixzz0N2AtxcBv

both-teams-played-hard
08-02-2009, 10:40 AM
The Pimp Minister Pete Nice will kick the verse!

corsairs22
08-02-2009, 11:12 AM
Which bats, do you suppose, are under investigation?

suicide_squeeze
08-02-2009, 11:16 AM
We should all be thrilled that the FBI is involved in our industry. I know I am.

I guess it's safe to say the days of the "easy money" in this business are over. Now if we can just get the Fed's to hire a couple of our experts here that constantly expose......er......question the garbage put out there in these auctions by a company......er.....by companies that claim to be the experts in the field, and then press charges for repeated offenses.

Man, I can't wait to see that day....

Did I mention that this is all just my opinion? :rolleyes:

Dewey2007
08-02-2009, 11:19 AM
The Pimp Minister Pete Nice will kick the verse!

Fraud and shill bidding get the Gas Face...

sammy
08-02-2009, 11:44 AM
Rats jumping from a sinking ship.

---------------------------------------------------

".........the presence of the federal investigators at the convention caused consternation among some on hand.

Mastro officials abandoned their booth, leaving just one employee to hold down the fort for much of the show."

Lokee
08-02-2009, 11:58 AM
If the collectors have enough of a problem spotting fakes and forgeries how are these FBI agents going to do that. Are they going to listen to the collectors ? and go on the "Honesty Policy" ?

If we are going to worry about fake jersey's and bogus bats and what not...There are so many other things to worry about in this world. Iam not saying it isn't important but we need to look deeper..

Obama is trying to take our right to bear arms away. What can we do about that ?

Our food and water supplys are tainted with mass amounts of Flouride, Radon ect. What can we do about that?

The Government is forcing Swine Flu shots on us that are filly with mercury, disodium phosphate, squalene, chicken embryos, and various virus cultures.

We need to take a stand kids and it aint all about counterfeit sports items !!!

You all might think iam crazy but i speak the truth.

joelsabi
08-02-2009, 12:43 PM
If the collectors have enough of a problem spotting fakes and forgeries how are these FBI agents going to do that. Are they going to listen to the collectors ? and go on the "Honesty Policy" ?

If we are going to worry about fake jersey's and bogus bats and what not...There are so many other things to worry about in this world. Iam not saying it isn't important but we need to look deeper..

Obama is trying to take our right to bear arms away. What can we do about that ?

Our food and water supplys are tainted with mass amounts of Flouride, Radon ect. What can we do about that?

The Government is forcing Swine Flu shots on us that are filly with mercury, disodium phosphate, squalene, chicken embryos, and various virus cultures.

We need to take a stand kids and it aint all about counterfeit sports items !!!

You all might think iam crazy but i speak the truth.

based on the report, it doesnt seem like a lot of resources are being used here. yes those others items you mentioned should have priority and i bet there are more government resources used for them than this investigation. how agents are we talking about here? 2 or 3 agents?

both-teams-played-hard
08-02-2009, 01:10 PM
Obama is trying to take our right to bear arms away. What can we do about that ?

Our food and water supplys are tainted with mass amounts of Flouride, Radon ect. What can we do about that?

The Government is forcing Swine Flu shots on us that are filly with mercury, disodium phosphate, squalene, chicken embryos, and various virus cultures.

We need to take a stand kids and it aint all about counterfeit sports items !!!

You all might think iam crazy but i speak the truth.

Chicken Little
Keep your doom-n-gloom bullshit off of this forum.

Dig?

34swtns
08-02-2009, 01:38 PM
.......it aint all about counterfeit sports items !!!


Well, here, it is. The rest of that rant is better suited for the "Rush Limbaugh/right wing memorabilia collectors forum".

David
08-02-2009, 01:56 PM
Duly note that being given a suboena often doesn't mean the server thinks the served did anything wrong. In a car accident civil suit, a bystander on the sidewalk may be subpoenaed to testify as a witness to the accident.

otismalibu
08-02-2009, 02:51 PM
Just about time for a little FBI sting operation, no.

Get one of the baseball or football jersey experts to build a superstar jersey with a number of obvious red flags. Then have secret agent man shop the jersey to some of the major auction houses, making sure to point out they need X amount of dollars to let it go, regardless of what the auction opening bid is.

Lokee
08-02-2009, 06:12 PM
Chicken Little
Keep your doom-n-gloom bullshit off of this forum.

Dig?

LMAO

Comments from the peanut gallery are always welcome alas.

both-teams-played-hard
08-02-2009, 06:41 PM
LMAO

Comments from the peanut gallery are always welcome alas.

Lokee
I will admit that I was somewhat harsh in my reply. I think your reply to my salty words was gentleman-like and it is admired. I reacted quickly, without thinking.
Let's do what we can to keep politics off the forum. Thanks for understanding.

Lokee
08-02-2009, 07:58 PM
agreed and sorry if I sounded like a dick.

I get frustrated sometimes hearing about the FBI cracking down and doing this kinda thing. It baffles me to know that people would rather know about the counterfeit jersey's, bats etc... OVER the real things that matter in todays world.

I completely understand it was off topic but sometimes we all need to vent.

FOR THE RECORD iam not a Republican or a Democrat, I belong to no party and don't like Limbaugh.

whatupyos
08-02-2009, 08:02 PM
Chicken Little
Keep your doom-n-gloom bullshit off of this forum.

Dig?


What a wonderful response from a wonderful member :rolleyes: . Thanks for the colorful language. You're a class act.

Aaron

suicide_squeeze
08-02-2009, 08:09 PM
agreed and sorry if I sounded like a dick.

I get frustrated sometimes hearing about the FBI cracking down and doing this kinda thing. It baffles me to know that people would rather know about the counterfeit jersey's, bats etc... OVER the real things that matter in todays world.

I completely understand it was off topic but sometimes we all need to vent.

FOR THE RECORD iam not a Republican or a Democrat, I belong to no party and don't like Limbaugh.

It's OK Lokee,

I bring a lot of BS to the forum too, just to vent. I just try to keep it away from Religion and Politics, the two majors......but even I slip up once in awhile because darn it.....some times you just need to speak your mind!!

You still get a big hug from me....... http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/bighug.gif

Lokee
08-02-2009, 08:11 PM
:D

Thanks for understanding :p

frikativ54
08-02-2009, 08:52 PM
I get frustrated sometimes hearing about the FBI cracking down and doing this kinda thing. It baffles me to know that people would rather know about the counterfeit jersey's, bats etc... OVER the real things that matter in todays world.

I am thrilled that the FBI is cracking down on the fraud in the hobby. Some of these dealers think that they are above the law, and that they can fake jerseys and bats and get away with it. This is a billion dollar industry, and there has to be some accountability. The FBI's investigation is long overdue.

In my mind, anything we can do to help collectors is worth it. People like me have spent thousands of dollars on jerseys, bats, and and batting gloves. The least that the government owes us is a safe environment for the exchange of game-used memorabilia.

Not everyone in this hobby has ethics, so government oversight becomes necessary.

suicide_squeeze
08-02-2009, 09:34 PM
I am thrilled that the FBI is cracking down on the fraud in the hobby. Some of these dealers think that they are above the law, and that they can fake jerseys and bats and get away with it. This is a billion dollar industry, and there has to be some accountability. The FBI's investigation is long overdue.

In my mind, anything we can do to help collectors is worth it. People like me have spent thousands of dollars on jerseys, bats, and and batting gloves. The least that the government owes us is a safe environment for the exchange of game-used memorabilia.

Not everyone in this hobby has ethics, so government oversight becomes necessary.

My vote for:

POST OF THE DAY!!! http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/trophy.gif

markize
08-02-2009, 09:37 PM
Fraud and shill bidding get the Gas Face...

Elroy, Elroy, Elroy Cohen......

joelsabi
08-03-2009, 11:25 AM
Elroy, Elroy, Elroy Cohen......

i dont get the reference.

Eric
08-03-2009, 12:24 PM
Getting back to the topic, what do we think the recipients of the subpoenas have in common- consignors? authenticators? they're not all auction houses. Sounds to me like it's a combination of memorabilia and cards they are looking at.
Could it be about disclosure of restorations? Shill bidding? How do you prove that someone knowingly sold something that isn't as represented?
Interested in people's thoughts.

both-teams-played-hard
08-03-2009, 01:52 PM
Getting back to the topic, what do we think the recipients of the subpoenas have in common- consignors? authenticators? they're not all auction houses. Sounds to me like it's a combination of memorabilia and cards they are looking at.
Could it be about disclosure of restorations? Shill bidding? How do you prove that someone knowingly sold something that isn't as represented?
Interested in people's thoughts.

It would be nice if they were going after the people who "build" fake jerseys. The forgers who transform commons into superstar shirts. There are many who knowingly consign bogus stuff. I wouldn't want to be the prosecutor who tries to make that case. Seems impossible.
I bet it's about cards.



i dont get the reference.
Elroy Cohen gets the Gas Face. 20-year old reference to Pete Nash who has a current beef with hobby big-wig Robert Lifson. A battle that peaks my interest. Far more interesting than Kool Moe Dee v. L.L. Cool J or even Eminem v. Mariah.
Pete Nash (Nice) is exposing the fact that Lifson allegedly stole baseball artifacts from the New York Public Library in the 1970s.

markize
08-03-2009, 02:13 PM
Getting back to the topic, what do we think the recipients of the subpoenas have in common- consignors? authenticators? they're not all auction houses. Sounds to me like it's a combination of memorabilia and cards they are looking at.
Could it be about disclosure of restorations? Shill bidding? How do you prove that someone knowingly sold something that isn't as represented?
Interested in people's thoughts.

Eric,

could it be that the recipients have little to nothing in common? maybe the FBI knows fraud is rampant in this hobby, and is fishing for a link between anyone, whether is be authenticators, consignors, auction houses, etc. I think the FBI already knows shill bidding is a problem, but may be more interested in the origin of the garbage in the market. to me, cards, and memorabilia are two sperate evils in that people creating fake jerseys, etc are most likely not pumping out fake cards as well (in my opinion).

mark

allstarsplus
08-03-2009, 03:14 PM
This article has to bel good for business when it comes to MLB Auctions, NFL Auctions, team sites, Upper Deck Authenticated and a few others that deal direct and have control.

When there are problems with those guys, it is probably a mistake and nothing more.

This is why you see collectors paying large premiums on the MLB and NFL Auction sites.

When a collector reads O'Keeffe's article it just pushes them more to the edge with respect to any non-affiliated dealers and this economy it makes it an easier decision not to be an item.

I had 2 bats I was selling from the same player. One bat had a MLB hologram and the other one didn't. The one without the hologram had better use, but the buyer preferred having the one with the MLB #'d hologram. That's the best example I can use for modern collectors.

lund6771
08-03-2009, 03:19 PM
Eric,

could it be that the recipients have little to nothing in common? maybe the FBI knows fraud is rampant in this hobby, and is fishing for a link between anyone, whether is be authenticators, consignors, auction houses, etc. I think the FBI already knows shill bidding is a problem, but may be more interested in the origin of the garbage in the market. to me, cards, and memorabilia are two sperate evils in that people creating fake jerseys, etc are most likely not pumping out fake cards as well (in my opinion).

mark


"fishing" is what I think happens at the beginning of the game...I think the suits are way past fishing....once the indictments start, the singing will follow

Lokee
08-03-2009, 03:40 PM
I had a team issued Portland basketball jersey for sale on ebay was of a common player. Someone asked me if I would take less because they have to factor in changing the name on the back to a "star" player.:(

I now know not to buy anything off this ebay dealer.

suicide_squeeze
08-03-2009, 03:53 PM
Eric,

Obviously the Feds are involved, as they have been busting some serious criminals over the past decade or so in the biz.

Certainly they are actively following up on complaints, leads, etc., by people like ourselves who have exposed so much bad stuff. And what better place to catch a fish, then a fish bowl full of 'em like the National? It's their one-stop shopping subpoena delivery store!

Also, this opportunity fulfills another major goal in law enforcement: Being visably active at these events acts as a deterrent to the criminals. Who wants to answer questions from a roaming Fed about an item they have hanging in their box?? None of them, I'm sure......unless of course it's absolutely authentic. And as we all know, none of the dealers in this business know if that's the case a large majority of the time.

Eric
08-03-2009, 07:44 PM
Here's what excites me about the whole investigation.

There's a good chance that auction houses who have screwed their customers with shill bidding and bad items over the years will soon be screwing each other over by cooperating with the feds and giving up info on their competitors.

Many of these guys have either worked at more than one house or know people who work at other houses.

With some of the characters we know in this hobby, don't you think some are talking in order to save themselves?

If you're an auction house who knowingly sold bad items, it's gotta be tough to sleep at night.

Lokee
08-04-2009, 08:23 PM
i agree very touch to sleep for those people.

frikativ54
08-04-2009, 09:02 PM
If you're an auction house who knowingly sold bad items, it's gotta be tough to sleep at night.

This is where your mistake lies, Eric. You are assuming that the people who sold bad items have a moral conscience. A number of con men - whether they doctor jerseys and bats, grossly overcharge, and lie about their products - don't have scruples at all.

The point is, Eric, that these people don't lose sleep at night. They go about their business, duping collector after collector, and amassing not paltry fortunes. The bottom line is that these people think they are above the FBI, above the Better Business Bureau, and above any code of ethics.

These frauds need to be investigated because not only do they deceive us, but also because they are narcissistic sociopaths.

markize
08-04-2009, 09:10 PM
This is where your mistake lies, Eric. You are assuming that the people who sold bad items have a moral conscience. A number of con men - whether they doctor jerseys and bats, grossly overcharge, and lie about their products - don't have scruples at all.

The point is, Eric, that these people don't lose sleep at night. They go about their business, duping collector after collector, and amassing not paltry fortunes. The bottom line is that these people think they are above the FBI, above the Better Business Bureau, and above any code of ethics.

These frauds need to be investigated because not only do they deceive us, but also because they are narcissistic sociopaths.

is this a reference to anyone in particular? Seems like a familiar topic.

Mark

frikativ54
08-04-2009, 09:29 PM
is this a reference to anyone in particular? Seems like a familiar topic.

Mark

I have stated my cases against individual con artists in the past; I am now only talking of general concerns with the hobby. The point is that quite a few dealers fit some of my criteria, and of those, many have no moral conscience. The FBI can make up their mind as to whom to prosecute, and for what grievances. I, however, have been quite happy with my hobby dealings for the past six months.

Eric
08-04-2009, 09:43 PM
People sometimes get a conscience when they're about to get caught. If there was no investigation, I would agree with you. But if the noose is tightening, I could see some tough nights thinking about how long until you have to fill out a change of address card for prison.

jobathenut
08-04-2009, 11:30 PM
That was just what i was thinking.Thanks for saying it for me.:)
Well, here, it is. The rest of that rant is better suited for the "Rush Limbaugh/right wing memorabilia collectors forum".

Fnazxc0114
08-05-2009, 08:59 AM
so this isnt the place for rev wright left wing g/u speeches? i must be on the wrong forum. for a second there i thought we were all tallking about giving our stuff away to the free loaders.

Eric
08-06-2009, 08:09 PM
Over on the mears site, Dave Grob wrote a column about this topic. I think his point is valid. How do you prove intent? If the auction houses said, "oh well, we trusted the authenticator" and the authenticator said "i was just giving my opinion," how can you prove that the auction house knew the authenticator would approve just about anything, if that was indeed the case?
Sounds like you need to have the place that was doctoring the items, the proof that the person who was having them made was consigning them to an auction house and the proof that the auction house knew what was happening.
Anyway, Dave Grob's piece is reprinted here with his permission.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Investigations and the National by Dave Grob

I fully expected to see some coverage by Michael O’Keeffe of the National and on the ongoing FBI investigation into the sports memorabilia industry. You can read his article in the on line version of the Sunday 2 August New York Daily News. What began as a look into shill bidding has now extended into other problems that have plagued this industry for years and this is a good thing. It appears that investigation has now begun to focus on how product comes into the industry as well as possibile linkages between auction houses and those who offer opinions for them. It will be very interesting to see where these latest two issues take us.

Have individuals and organizations been working in collusion to knowingly move bad product to consumers? Bad product in my mind is defined as either stolen property or items that were knowingly not what they were represented to be. The stolen property issues will in all likelihood be easier to make a case on than the other portion.

As I have said and written about for years, there are no formal training or certification standards for individuals offering opinions on items that are then marketed and offered by an auction house. Can the authenticator simply say I was doing the best I could and it was the final decision of the auction house to evaluate my work and then decide to offer the item or not? Can the auction house simply say that we are not experts and can only rely on the opinions of those we retain in this capacity? This is where the whole thing gets tough for the authenticator, auction house, and those looking to build a case against them.

For the authenticator, can they on one hand claim to be an expert when it justifies their pay, but on the other hand claim they are not when it comes to their responsibility and liability in this matter? Almost three years ago I wrote a column titled “Authenticating the Authenticators” and I looked at this issue along the lines of how the Federal Rules of Evidence defines and expert, specifically Rule # 702. A portion of that article is show below.

Rule 702. Testimony by Experts

If scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue, a witness qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education, may testify thereto in the form of an opinion or otherwise, if (1) the testimony is based upon sufficient facts or data, (2) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods, and (3) the witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the facts of the case.

For this to have any applicability and to make any sense, let’s pick this apart and see what makes sense for the hobby. To begin with, I think that we may all want to agree that anyone who has a question about an item can be considered a “trier of fact” to some degree. All I am saying here is if everyone all had the same level of understanding, experience, reference data/material, and techniques, then it would not be an issue. The plan fact of the matter is that somebody out there knows more about something than you do, hence the desire for an “experts” opinion.

Understanding and Applying the Definition

Like most things in life, application requires an understanding of the context in which they are used or evaluated. I would offer this framework for using the language in Rule #702.

(1) The testimony is based upon sufficient facts or data. For the hobby, I think we are all agreeable that the “because I said so” is a rather weak argument. We did not like hearing this as kids, and certainly like it even less when we are being asked to buy something based on that as a rational. We should expect that any opinion that is based on any number of facts or data points:

a. How does this compare with other know examples and what those examples are? For instance when someone states “All Correct Tagging,” what is the basis for stating this?

b. If photographic references are made, are the photographs included? If not, where I do reasonably go to see this for myself?

Other reasonable questions or issues that should be addressed when considering whether the facts and data are sufficient may include:

a. How long has the person been involved in this particular aspect of the hobby?

b. An approximate number of like items the person has seen.

c. Do they have any special or formalized training or experience in related fields such as imagery analysis, manufacturer of the item, or as a researcher?

d. Have they published any works in the associated field that have held up to the public scrutiny of the hobby?

While this is not meant to be the all-inclusive list of qualifications, I would think it would begin to address the basics.

(2) The testimony is the product of reliable principles and methods. For me, this means the person has and uses an established process that makes sense given what they are being asked to look at. This process should be expected to be made public in the form of “this is what I look for and this is how I do it.” I am not advocating that all of the reference data be made available since much of this has been accumulated at both the time and personal expense of the person offering the opinion. Once again, this goes back to the point I made earlier, if you are a potential buyer or the owner of the item that you have paid for to have authenticated, then you are entitled to it.

The concept I would like to emphasize centers on the word reliable. This should mean that if you do the same things in the same manner with the same information, you should get the same results, or in this case, opinion.

(3) The witness has applied the principles and methods reliably to the facts of the case. In this case, the witness is the person offering the opinion. All this is saying that the process, principles, and methods used served as the basis for the opinion, not the other way around. By this I mean, if the person’s methods or procedures call for use of photographs for comparison, they cannot simply choose not to do this because some of the photographs contradict their opinion. In addition if they evidence that supports more than one possibility, they should state what both are and then clarify why they believe it to be on case over another.

This then takes us to the auction house and their roles and responsibilities. What was the basis for them selecting the authenticators they employed? If it can not seem to be substantiated based a demonstrated level of expertise on the part of the authenticator as show above, then was there another nefarious reason for their employment? Was the authenticator a source of undisclosed consignment material? Did the auction house knowingly employee the authenticator because they knew the authenticator would agree to certify just about anything offered to them, thus providing a steady stream of product for offering? In my opinion the auction house has both responsibility for the product they offer and those agents they engage or employee.

This leads us to the issues or problems faced by those looking to make a case. Has sloppy work on the part of authenticators and poor judgment on the part of auction the houses who retain them cost folks money? I would suggest it has. The seminal point being, was all of this just poor management which might appear to be more of a civil issue than a criminal one. Or was there an actual conspiracy to defraud the collecting public by knowingly allowing suspect or bad product to continue to move throughout the industry? I guess that is what we will have to wait to see.

In my mind, all of these problems have existed for far too long. Although we get news reports and “hobby/industry” talk about what is happening or not happening, we are no closer to an industry wide solution of or formal sense of accountability than we were six years ago when I began publicly commenting on these issues.

There are still things I would still like to MEARS improve upon, but I am very happy about the issues we have addressed internally and on a voluntary basis as they relate to disclosure and accountability as these two issues seem to be the nexus of the unsavory relationship between authenticators and auction houses.

My hope is that by next years National, we are not simply left to read about the status of a still on going investigation.

As always, collect what you enjoy and enjoy what you collect.

Dave Grob

For questions or comments on this article, please feel to contact me at DaveGrob1@aol.com.
http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=669

jppopma
08-07-2009, 12:51 AM
Hopefully they will be able to build some good cases out of their investigation. The intent part should be one of the easier things to prove, it's simply MONEY. All of these frauds are selling fake items, altering them, or misrepressenting them with the intent to make more money than the item is worth. It does not require them to double their money or even break even; merely trying to pull it off covers the intent.

The auction houses and authenticators are very muddy waters. If this were my investigation, I would be looking into those who doctor the jerseys or flip them with a new story. It is at this point where the crime is committed and the case is the strongest. Once a bad jersey changes hands even once, the owner can plead ignorence and go strictly on the sellers word. (I'd hate to be the subject of an investigation after being duped....who knows how many of us have bought and still have bogus items).

Back to the investigation, my thoughts would be to introduce some bait jerseys into the hobby with the specific details that they are not game used (hell, make them really bad knock offs even). Anyway, prep them with an UV or DNA pen so that you can identify the jersey at a later time. Then sit back and wait for the jersey to surface once again. When someone tries to flip this bait jersey, you can contact the buyer and then backtrack who the seller was. Ideally it will not have changed hands too many times and you can trace it back to the "suspect" dealer who it was planted with. For all of the CSI fans, I would simply install a GPS tracking device made to look like a Prova chip. :)

In a recent case I encountered, the jersey was purchased by the seller only months prior as a signed jersey. In that short of a time period, the jersey was up on Ebay as game worn. It was only after the jersey was received and documentation reviewed that the case began to open up. Sadly,I have too much on my own desk to have the time to get it presented to the prosecutor's office. Oh well, maybe in time I will have to pass the story on to the FBI.

dirtyla2000
08-07-2009, 03:08 AM
If the collectors have enough of a problem spotting fakes and forgeries how are these FBI agents going to do that. Are they going to listen to the collectors ? and go on the "Honesty Policy" ?

If we are going to worry about fake jersey's and bogus bats and what not...There are so many other things to worry about in this world. Iam not saying it isn't important but we need to look deeper..

Obama is trying to take our right to bear arms away. What can we do about that ?

Our food and water supplys are tainted with mass amounts of Flouride, Radon ect. What can we do about that?

The Government is forcing Swine Flu shots on us that are filly with mercury, disodium phosphate, squalene, chicken embryos, and various virus cultures.

We need to take a stand kids and it aint all about counterfeit sports items !!!

You all might think iam crazy but i speak the truth.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT,I THINK YOU ARE FRIGGIN NUTS!!!!!

RKGIBSON
08-07-2009, 07:37 PM
Grob's column is another attempt to justify his companys mistakes. My hope is that by next years nationals, companies like his have to be accountable for their ignorance on items that they present their selfs as experts on. When you write a expert opinion, make statements that are not true, and people spend money because of your opinion, you become lible. This grading thing they do is a joke, but that is part of the game they play.

Roger

Eric
08-07-2009, 09:31 PM
I disagree with you. The article was not about justifying anyone's mistakes. It was about the hobby being held liable for selling bad items and for authenticators to have to live up to how they are representing themselves.

For years and years- going back to the old days of the game used forum, Dave Grob has been a proponent of regulation for the industry- that translates to holding people accountable.

He's the first guy to stand up and say the rules that are currently in place have cost people money on bad items.

Lokee
08-07-2009, 10:52 PM
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT,I THINK YOU ARE FRIGGIN NUTS!!!!!

:eek: OH my god LMAO

Unfortunately all those are well documented kid.

Maybe you need to stop and do a little research or reading.

Take 10 mins out of the day instead of combing auction sites. Learn about your country and the "freedom" you have and are about to lose.

Why do you think people are gathering at these town hall meetings ? For sure not because of the free coffee.

It doesn't matter Republican or Democrat they are one in the same.

RKGIBSON
08-07-2009, 11:46 PM
Eric, your making me laugh. They sure need some checks and balances within in their company. You make it sound like one hand at MEARS does not know what the other is doing. Their grade system is a joke. It would not be hard to make a system that is easy to understand what they are saying. Its not about doing it right, its about making money. The other thing that is evident is the lack of knowledge in somethings they evaluate. I would not be a part of MEARS if I did not want to be associated with all the mistakes. I will say I have not seen anything that Grob himself has done that has come in question here. There is an old saying, "If you lie with dogs you get fleas".

Roger

Eric
08-08-2009, 12:13 AM
Roger-
You were questioning the intent of Grob's column. I am taking it at it's word. You seem to be suggesting that it's to justify Mears' mistakes.

Grob is saying the opposite. People should HAVE to own up to mistakes. And there should be regulations to force them to because people in the hobby can't seem to do it on their own.

RKGIBSON
08-08-2009, 08:36 AM
Fair enough, I read it slightly different. At the end of the day with any business, you have your reputation and integrity for customers to make the decision to do business with you. When it comes to football, I do not trust their opinion from their past work. Not just MEARS but all the authenication companies have big problems when it comes to credibility in my opinion. None of their COA's mean anything to me. Authentication companies have been created as a tool to lend credibility to items that can not be done any other way. This is my final post on this subject, and my opinion.

Roger

lund6771
08-08-2009, 08:41 AM
Roger-
You were questioning the intent of Grob's column. I am taking it at it's word. You seem to be suggesting that it's to justify Mears' mistakes.

Grob is saying the opposite. People should HAVE to own up to mistakes. And there should be regulations to force them to because people in the hobby can't seem to do it on their own.

Eric...the A5 thing is the biggest joke in this hobby...there are TONS of A5 pieces of shit floating around that people actually believe are real because it is a post 1987 something or other

like Roger said...it's all about the money....would Mears make any $ if they rejected all the A5 crap out there?...of course not, so let's give it an A5 so we can get paid

grading the Jim Brown an A10 proved to me that it's all about the money

what people say and do can be completely different