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View Full Version : Ebay bidding shenanigans? What do you think?



mattmueller
07-14-2009, 06:15 PM
Please allow me to describe a set of facts and solicit people’s opinions. Yes, its sorta long.

Via eBay, one of the many sports memorabilia dealers who have an exclusive contract with a fast rising star has been selling autographed items of a particular star. Call the dealer XYZ Sports. Apparently in a private signing conducted with the player, XYZ had a lot of signing going on because XYZ consistently lists a new auction for one of these autographed items immediately after the prior auction ends. So at a minimum, a new auction for an autographed version of this item is started every 7 days. The item being sold can be described in a generic manner so, given the frequency of the auctions, XYZ continues to utilize the exact same description and exact photo in each auction. Note however, that given potential nuances in said players autograph, and/or the nature of the item being autographed, showing actual photos of the autographed item being offered in each auction could allow a bidder to understand if the same item has been sold before. XYZ maintains a website presence and has offered game used and autographed items of the star player before. My personal interaction with XYZ is that they are horribly slow to respond to inquiries of items for sale, sometimes not even responding to offers to buy items being offered. Further, upon review of photos provided by XYZ depicting items described as game used by the star (and from conversations with others also offered game used items by XYZ), the game use characteristics of some of the items being offered is at some times quite questionable.


So, I have an interest in acquiring one of the frequently auctioned autographed items mentioned above. But, given that they are being churned out on such a frequent basis, I wait to place a bid thinking that eventually XYZ will saturate the market and the price will drop. Four months later, the price drops a little, but not below a certain level, ~$170. This seems odd and makes me curious, so I begin to “watch” or bid on the items on ebay to be able to easily reference bidding patterns on the items auctioned.

For the two + month period I have been watching and four weeks that I have been able to have exact auction results documented or saved, a certain bidder is always present in the bidding process. We will call this bidder, Bidder X, or in eBay terms B***X. B***X has a solid 116 feedback, with 100% satisfaction. Seems like a good guy.


A bit on B***X’s attempts to win one of these items while I have been paying strict attention. At first look, it appears our friend B***X is a disciplined bidder. B***X is always bidding a day or so before the auction ends, always bidding (within a few dollars) the same price, typically using an autobid, but B***X has apparently not found the joys of sniping an auction. My initial opinion is B***X is determined to get one of those special autographed items of this rising star, he just doesn’t have enough pennies in the piggy bank to bid over $170. One time, he even bids $169.99 only to have a bid of $170.01 sit as the top bid for 36 hours. But apparently poor B***X couldn’t find $.03 to up his bid and finally win the beloved item. Bummer. B***X is almost always the underbidder, 2nd place really sucks. However, B***X’s luck finally changes on the weekend of July 4th. While others are apparently enjoying hot dogs and fireworks, B***X’s stealthy bid of ~$164 finally wins one of these items. Congratulations to B***X! But wait, in the next auction our good friend is back in the fray bidding on the item again, but is once again the underbidder at $169.


To me, B***X’s bid on the auction after he won the last auction ruined by theory of the disciplined buyer looking to score that beloved item at a good price, so I decide to check out his bid history. I was shocked to see that Bidder X is so dedicated to trying to win items from XYZ that 100% of his bids were on items sold by XYZ in the last 31 days. Perhaps, I reason, that given XYZ’s status as exclusive provider of autographed and game used items, B***X only bids on items from XYZ. B***X also has no interest in bidding on other of the star players items available on ebay, whether MLB authenticated or maybe a bubble gum card or two. Nothing doing. Its all XYZ sports or nothing.


In your opinion (feel free to make multiple selections):


a) B***X is a diligent buyer of the star player’s autographed items below $170. Loves them for less than $170, hates them over $170. B***X has trust in the XYZ LOA and relationship with the star and only bids on ebay with XYZ.

b) B***X is acting as a shill bidder for XYZ, driving the price to $170 for the item. XYZ has costs associated with having the star under contract and needs to get $170 or so for the bats to make the contract with the star worthwhile. By using the generic listing and photo, XYZ can cover their tracks in case B***X accidentally wins an auction.

c) Some other explanation I haven’t thought of

d) I have way too much free time on my hands to i) notice this is going on, ii) write this long of a post, iii) even worry about it to begin with


Thanks for reading through it all,
Matt

spartakid
07-14-2009, 06:40 PM
Wow, that was long. I would say both B and D apply here.:D Definitely sketch if you ask me, the probably didn't count on someone like yourself, this is where the D. comes in, following their auctions over a long period of time. I would report this for sure. Sounds like some good detective work to me. Care to share who XYZ actually is? Since this all speculation and we aren't accusing anyone, hopefully that can help me avoid a CD order :rolleyes: Just so perhaps if someone on hear decides to bid on one of their items, they can pay close attention to the bidders. Ricardo

Jags Fan Dan
07-14-2009, 07:49 PM
Believe me, if it looks like shill bidding, smells like shill bidding... you get the picture. Trust your gut. It's 99.9% for sure a pant load.

joelsabi
07-14-2009, 08:09 PM
Please allow me to describe a set of facts and solicit people’s opinions. Yes, its sorta long.

Via eBay, one of the many sports memorabilia dealers who have an exclusive contract with a fast rising star has been selling autographed items of a particular star. Call the dealer XYZ Sports. Apparently in a private signing conducted with the player, XYZ had a lot of signing going on because XYZ consistently lists a new auction for one of these autographed items immediately after the prior auction ends. So at a minimum, a new auction for an autographed version of this item is started every 7 days. The item being sold can be described in a generic manner so, given the frequency of the auctions, XYZ continues to utilize the exact same description and exact photo in each auction. Note however, that given potential nuances in said players autograph, and/or the nature of the item being autographed, showing actual photos of the autographed item being offered in each auction could allow a bidder to understand if the same item has been sold before. XYZ maintains a website presence and has offered game used and autographed items of the star player before. My personal interaction with XYZ is that they are horribly slow to respond to inquiries of items for sale, sometimes not even responding to offers to buy items being offered. Further, upon review of photos provided by XYZ depicting items described as game used by the star (and from conversations with others also offered game used items by XYZ), the game use characteristics of some of the items being offered is at some times quite questionable.


So, I have an interest in acquiring one of the frequently auctioned autographed items mentioned above. But, given that they are being churned out on such a frequent basis, I wait to place a bid thinking that eventually XYZ will saturate the market and the price will drop. Four months later, the price drops a little, but not below a certain level, ~$170. This seems odd and makes me curious, so I begin to “watch” or bid on the items on ebay to be able to easily reference bidding patterns on the items auctioned.

For the two + month period I have been watching and four weeks that I have been able to have exact auction results documented or saved, a certain bidder is always present in the bidding process. We will call this bidder, Bidder X, or in eBay terms B***X. B***X has a solid 116 feedback, with 100% satisfaction. Seems like a good guy.


A bit on B***X’s attempts to win one of these items while I have been paying strict attention. At first look, it appears our friend B***X is a disciplined bidder. B***X is always bidding a day or so before the auction ends, always bidding (within a few dollars) the same price, typically using an autobid, but B***X has apparently not found the joys of sniping an auction. My initial opinion is B***X is determined to get one of those special autographed items of this rising star, he just doesn’t have enough pennies in the piggy bank to bid over $170. One time, he even bids $169.99 only to have a bid of $170.01 sit as the top bid for 36 hours. But apparently poor B***X couldn’t find $.03 to up his bid and finally win the beloved item. Bummer. B***X is almost always the underbidder, 2nd place really sucks. However, B***X’s luck finally changes on the weekend of July 4th. While others are apparently enjoying hot dogs and fireworks, B***X’s stealthy bid of ~$164 finally wins one of these items. Congratulations to B***X! But wait, in the next auction our good friend is back in the fray bidding on the item again, but is once again the underbidder at $169.


To me, B***X’s bid on the auction after he won the last auction ruined by theory of the disciplined buyer looking to score that beloved item at a good price, so I decide to check out his bid history. I was shocked to see that Bidder X is so dedicated to trying to win items from XYZ that 100% of his bids were on items sold by XYZ in the last 31 days. Perhaps, I reason, that given XYZ’s status as exclusive provider of autographed and game used items, B***X only bids on items from XYZ. B***X also has no interest in bidding on other of the star players items available on ebay, whether MLB authenticated or maybe a bubble gum card or two. Nothing doing. Its all XYZ sports or nothing.


In your opinion (feel free to make multiple selections):


a) B***X is a diligent buyer of the star player’s autographed items below $170. Loves them for less than $170, hates them over $170. B***X has trust in the XYZ LOA and relationship with the star and only bids on ebay with XYZ.

b) B***X is acting as a shill bidder for XYZ, driving the price to $170 for the item. XYZ has costs associated with having the star under contract and needs to get $170 or so for the bats to make the contract with the star worthwhile. By using the generic listing and photo, XYZ can cover their tracks in case B***X accidentally wins an auction.

c) Some other explanation I haven’t thought of

d) I have way too much free time on my hands to i) notice this is going on, ii) write this long of a post, iii) even worry about it to begin with


Thanks for reading through it all,
Matt

i am looking at a similar situation but my B***X keeps winning. so maybe he just has a fascination with the item where i just want one.

jppopma
07-14-2009, 09:38 PM
Looks like shill bidding to me. Another sure way to know is if the shiller keeps winning and they immediately offer the item in a second chance deal to the next in line. I've had that happen and ran the other way.

rj_lucas
07-15-2009, 08:50 AM
B, take it to the bank.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

CampWest
07-15-2009, 10:24 AM
sounds like you should report the buyer and seller to ebay... Though that probably doesnt help you much... they'd probably just switch to a 169.99 reserve/starting price or a higher BIN. Clearly they are not interested in selling below that price.

Sounds to me like they are using shill bidding to avoid the ebay fees related to setting a reserve, and avoid the common buyer avoidance of reserves.

How long have they been an ebay member?

mattmueller
07-19-2009, 07:57 AM
As it turns out the correct answer is A, dedicated fan of the superstar who only wants authentic items at a certain price and only from XYZ. B***X bid on the identical item after already winning one because they wanted two of them. Turns out that it is not really that hard to look at the seller's history and winning bidders to decode the B***X system, find that ebayer and shoot them a quick message. Of course they could be lying, but their bids have not shown up in the most recent auction, and the price ended below $150.

Matt

jppopma
07-19-2009, 03:17 PM
Hopefully they will step aside and let you win one of the items for alot less. Other than this bidder, what was the next lower amount? You should be able to land one of them for just above that.

Just remember to go with your gut! You said it well at the end of your post; the shill bidder could easily be the seller or related to the seller. Of course they would give you whatever line they could to keep you bidding.

Mark17
07-19-2009, 08:38 PM
From the story, what jumps out at me is the bid of $169.99. I personally don't think someone is trying to win an item with such a bid. It makes no sense... are they thinking someone else might be bidding $169.98?

suicide_squeeze
07-19-2009, 09:59 PM
From the story, what jumps out at me is the bid of $169.99. I personally don't think someone is trying to win an item with such a bid. It makes no sense... are they thinking someone else might be bidding $169.98?


No.....They are making DARN sure that a bid for $170.00 or higher wins.

Look.....I'd bet the home deed that it's one of two scenarios:

-The seller has an ID he is using to essentially "guarantee" a level reached.....or no sale;

-It's what Matt, the poster of this thread, has already deduced.....shill bidding by a friend, family member, etc.

There IS NO other logical explanation.

mattmueller
07-20-2009, 09:46 AM
I did not conclude that there was shill bidding going on, although the original fact pattern made it seem that it was potentially going on. I have communicated with the bidder in question and there are reasonable explanations for their activity.

suicide_squeeze
07-20-2009, 04:10 PM
I did not conclude that there was shill bidding going on, although the original fact pattern made it seem that it was potentially going on. I have communicated with the bidder in question and there are reasonable explanations for their activity.


Matt,

PLEASE tell me you're kidding......please?

Look, I don't care what the seller is telling you.......SOMEONE is bidding on this guys stuff to keep it at a certain level, and it ISN'T some guy who ONLY wants it at a certain price......OK?

If that's what he told you, he's LYING.....because if that were the case, he's work out an off-ebay deal with the guy and sell him as many of these items as he wants.

WHY?

Because if he's ok with selling these for these prices, WHY continue to sell them for possibly a little less, and STILL HAVE TO PAY ebay's fees on each sell???

C'MON man, use your head.....you are letting some filthy cheat snowball you.

suicide_squeeze
07-20-2009, 04:12 PM
Matt,

PLEASE tell me you're kidding......please?

Look, I don't care what the seller is telling you.......SOMEONE is bidding on this guys stuff to keep it at a certain level, and it ISN'T some guy who ONLY wants it at a certain price......OK?

If that's what he told you, he's LYING.....because if that were the case, he's work out an off-ebay deal with the guy and sell him as many of these items as he wants.

WHY?

Because if he's ok with selling these for these prices, WHY continue to sell them for possibly a little less, and STILL HAVE TO PAY ebay's fees on each sell???

C'MON man, use your head.....you are letting some filthy cheat snowball you.


And let me clarify AGAIN what I mean by "seller".....

This so called "buyer" or "bidder" or whatever you want to call him.......IS the seller, or a darn close relative or friend or........you get the picture.

Swoboda4
07-20-2009, 04:18 PM
what's the problem with telling us who the seller is. All you did was state facts you didn't slander anyone.

suicide_squeeze
07-20-2009, 04:18 PM
As it turns out the correct answer is A, dedicated fan of the superstar who only wants authentic items at a certain price and only from XYZ. B***X bid on the identical item after already winning one because they wanted two of them. Turns out that it is not really that hard to look at the seller's history and winning bidders to decode the B***X system, find that ebayer and shoot them a quick message. Of course they could be lying, but their bids have not shown up in the most recent auction, and the price ended below $150.

Matt


That's because YOU called them on their scam, Matt. They had to do SOMEthing to redirect.......and this "buyer" probably QUICKLY called his dad/brother performing the auctions, and said "HEY, I had better not bid on this one at the same level.....WE'RE BEING WATCHED!!"

Why don't you tell us who the seller is, and what the item is......I think someone mentioned....a bat? I'd like to check out this ficticious bidding history stuff for myself. I'd like to see the "feedback exchanged" between the two.

jppopma
07-20-2009, 04:21 PM
Matt,

I agree with Squeeze. You can only take a person's word for what it is worth. When you don't know who that person is, it is even harder. I also think that the "buyer" is related to the seller; and in turn, will tell you a pretty convincing story.

If seller A is using buyer B to shill their items. Of course buyer B will make up a very nice story about the items and hype them up as much as possible for seller A. I would not be suprised if he didn't tell you that he was only bidding because the first one he bought was just so darn perfect that he needed another one....

It's you money dude, but we are just trying to look out for you.

JP

suicide_squeeze
07-20-2009, 04:22 PM
what's the problem with telling us who the seller is. All you did was state facts you didn't slander anyone.

Exactly........c'mon.....cough it up....http://www.chatsmileysemoticons.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/yahoo-messenger-hidden-emoticons-just-bring-it.gif

rj_lucas
07-20-2009, 04:31 PM
This is one of the oldest tricks in the eBay book i.e. a seller (or their proxy) bids an item up to the point where the seller is willing to sell it to someone else. By doing so, the seller effectively sets a reserve price without paying the eBay Reserve Fee.

Rick
rickjlucas@gmail.com

mattmueller
07-21-2009, 05:53 AM
There is something about the fire, ready, aim mentality on the forum lately that is a bit off, in my humble opinion. Since I am satisfied with the explanation and do not believe there is anything shady going on, I see no reason to identify the seller or buyer.

suicide_squeeze
07-21-2009, 11:01 PM
There is something about the fire, ready, aim mentality on the forum lately that is a bit off, in my humble opinion. Since I am satisfied with the explanation and do not believe there is anything shady going on, I see no reason to identify the seller or buyer.


Matt,

No problem. It's not important if we know.

But I am curious....you started this thread, and you seemed to be on track for exposing something amiss. Now you are taking a 180 degree about face on what more than a few friendly members have identified as a gimmick response for shill bidding.

What was your reasoning for starting the thread and asking for our thoughts in the first place then?

Baiting us so you can comment on our mentality? That doesn't seem logical. So.....what's up? I have always thought you to be a reasonable forum member, and still do. But you seem to be eerilly off on your conclusion. You may be right.......but most of us feel it's just not likely.

mattmueller
07-22-2009, 06:31 AM
Squeeze: The point in asking other's opinions was to see what other people thought. I thought something odd was going on, was bored at work one day so I started off the thread. After having a few more facts come to light shortly thereafter, it no longer appears to me to be an issue. This was not just a case of the suspicious bidder simply telling me that they want to own more than one of the items being bid on, I am not quite that dumb/naive. It was the explanation provided and the ability to look at their bidding and buying feedback for a period of more than the last 31 days allowed by the disguised bidder history in each auction. If I had that information from the start, it would not have been an issue to begin with. If the odd bidding occurs again in the future with no reasonable explanation, I will let people know to be wary of the seller's auctions.

I have not gone 180 degrees on the subject at all. I may have hinted that I thought there was shill bidding, but I was not in the 100%, has to be shady business going on camp. If I was in that camp, I would have approached the subject much differently. Frankly, I am not 100% in the everything is fine camp yet either, just comfortable enough with the situation to not start accusing people of shady business. If you think I am an idiot, I guess I am ok with that.

Also, if I wanted to start a thread on people's mentality, I would just start a thread on it, or add to any of the others that are already out there. That said, I do find some of the responses interesting.

Matt

suicide_squeeze
07-22-2009, 05:41 PM
Squeeze: The point in asking other's opinions was to see what other people thought. I thought something odd was going on, was bored at work one day so I started off the thread. After having a few more facts come to light shortly thereafter, it no longer appears to me to be an issue. This was not just a case of the suspicious bidder simply telling me that they want to own more than one of the items being bid on, I am not quite that dumb/naive. It was the explanation provided and the ability to look at their bidding and buying feedback for a period of more than the last 31 days allowed by the disguised bidder history in each auction. If I had that information from the start, it would not have been an issue to begin with. If the odd bidding occurs again in the future with no reasonable explanation, I will let people know to be wary of the seller's auctions.

I have not gone 180 degrees on the subject at all. I may have hinted that I thought there was shill bidding, but I was not in the 100%, has to be shady business going on camp. If I was in that camp, I would have approached the subject much differently. Frankly, I am not 100% in the everything is fine camp yet either, just comfortable enough with the situation to not start accusing people of shady business. If you think I am an idiot, I guess I am ok with that.

Also, if I wanted to start a thread on people's mentality, I would just start a thread on it, or add to any of the others that are already out there. That said, I do find some of the responses interesting.

Matt


Matt,

In referring to the two comments of yours I highlighted above, please consider the following:

I do not think you're an idiot. Your opinion and conclusions are yours, and you are certainly entitled to them without having to have any backlash for them.

In regards to the first highlighted comment, my opinion is after expressing your view on what you find to be the answer to what was going on there.....I don't believe anyone would bother commenting on any further "odd bidding" activity with this seller's items. We know what's going on.

Further more, you have chosen to "protect" (for lack of a better word) this seller by refraining to share what the item is, or tell us who he is.....so really, after we gave our opinions to you, what else is there to talk about? Nothing.

You feel you have it figured out, and believe what you have been told, so more power to you. There would be nothing to gain by rehashing the same circumstances at a later time.

See you on another thread partner.