Correct an Error! Chipper Jones black Mizuno gamers

[vonbrandingo]

An error made by either Mizuno, PSA/DNA, or batreference.com needs to be corrected.

I recently purchased a Chipper Jones black Mizuno Pro Ltd. professional model bat showing signs of game use, sent it to Mr. Taube at PSA/DNA for authentication and grading, and received the disappointing results today after over a month of waiting. According to Taube, although the bat was used by Jones, after contacting Mizuno, they indicated to him that Jones has never used Mizuno bats in a game (as stated in the LOA).

Batreference.com states on their Chipper Jones page that Jones tends to use black Mizuno, Glomar, Louisville slugger bats as a righty. I've also seen him use black Rawlings as a righty. I've sent an email to batreference.com asking them for more information on Chipper black Mizunos and to send me pictures of him using these bats in a game as I think they would have this evidence. I've also searched getty images for examples and have yet to find one.

Please post any information you have on Chipper Jones black Mizuno gamers, authenticated Jones Mizuno gamers, and and any pictures you can find of Jones using a black Mizuno like this one in games. Your help to get to the bottom of this is appreciated!

[5kRunner]

Still looking, but I found this.

Back of 1999 SPx Premier Stars #PS15

[5kRunner]

This one looks like a game photo to me. Hope it helps.

1999 UD Choice StarQuest Green #10

[5kRunner]

Getty Editorial Image #307978 & #307985

Looks like a Mizuno to me.

[vonbrandingo]

BEAUTIFUL WORK!!! Thank you all and keep them coming if you find 'em! I'll be sending these images to John Taube.

[shoremen44]

Scott... nice work... you must not have too much to do today...lol

[vonbrandingo]

Scott... nice work... you must not have too much to do today...lol

As far as I'm concerned, he's done enough already as is!

[5kRunner]

Scott... nice work... you must not have too much to do today...lol

What? You've never heard of multitasking?

:D

[suave1477]

JUST THOUGHT I WOULD THROW THIS IN!!

A PICTURE OF CHIPPER FROM 1993

http://cache.uspresswire.com/image/thumb/600-600/2124008.jpg

[5kRunner]

Also of note, here is a Chipper card with him using a blonde Mizuno batting right handed. Kinda disproves the whole "He only uses a black bat when batting from the right side of the plate" statement. And of course the Glomar/Rawlings statement as well.

Okay, now as Bert said, I really need to do some work.

Later.

[Vintagedeputy]

Larry - Spring Training 1998

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/388295.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C94860FB577F9B57F68B1

[shoremen44]

Okay, now as Bert said, I really need to do some work.


Scott,
Dont do any work on my behalf... I'm just pissed I didnt get to Getty first... I would much rather search for a pic than do my work

[5kRunner]

Scott,
Dont do any work on my behalf... I'm just pissed I didnt get to Getty first... I would much rather search for a pic than do my work

LOL. Me too!

Maybe we could start a Game Used research company. We could call it Bert & Scott Research, or BS Research for short. :D

[kylehess10]

I also have a Chipper Jones Muzino bat. He used these bats in the late 90's I beieve

[vonbrandingo]

Thanks a lot for your effort to the members who posted pics, which I sent to Mr. Taube.

Clearly Mizuno made a mistake in saying that Mizuno bats were never used by Chipper in games. That statement seems ridiculous coming from them.

The other issue is whether Chipper used the 34" bats shipped to him to try during 2003-06 since he apparently used 35" bats during that period. Mr. Taube contacted Mizuno and they said that to their knowledge, no Chipper did not use them in games. :rolleyes:

The good news is that Mr. Taube ackowledged and apologized for the error after I sent the pics provided by Scott and the two other forum members (THANK YOU!). Mr. Taube said he would do more research to find out whether or not Chipper used 34" bats during games and revise the LOA when he reaches a conclusion.

Although anyone can buy MLB balls, I made a case that only a few people can leave such bold ball imprints on a bat like Chipper does and that the balls would have had to be pitched at MLB velocity to leave such marks. On top of that, this bat seems to match Chipper's use characteristics very well.

Take a look at the pics already posted and this one showing "Official Major League Baseball" and stars imprints from an official ball and make your own judgment. Could the leather scuffs, blue ink transfers, and the imprints have been made in BP?

Let me know your thoughts.

[shoremen44]

LOL. Me too!

Maybe we could start a Game Used research company. We could call it Bert & Scott Research, or BS Research for short. :D


HMMMM... BS... yes there would be alot of that...lol

[5kRunner]

Vonbrandingo,
I guess the ball marks could have been made in BP. But I always thought BP use = Game use as far as MLB was concerned. May not be the same for PSA/DNA.

Hope everything works out for you. Good luck!

[vonbrandingo]

Vonbrandingo,
I guess the ball marks could have been made in BP. But I always thought BP use = Game use as far as MLB was concerned. May not be the same for PSA/DNA.

Hope everything works out for you. Good luck!

Thanks! I've noticed that PSA/DNA distinguishes between BP used and game used bats and BP bats grade much lower, something like a GU 5 at the most.

Thanks again for your help Scott. I'll post Mr. Taube's findings when I get them. In the meantime, I'll see if I can find some evidence of him using 34" bats during 2003-06.

[redoctober]

Not at all glad that you got a poor grade here -- I hope the "appeal" comes back positive for you.

However, I am glad to see that JT is offering honest opinions with his grades. It is clear that his opinions can be respected and this is just one more example.

While it may appear that a "mistake" was made here, I would argue that this is the type of info that we should expect from a reputable authenticator. And it is clear that the "mistake" would be on the manufacturer's end, not JT's.

[vonbrandingo]

Not at all glad that you got a poor grade here -- I hope the "appeal" comes back positive for you.

However, I am glad to see that JT is offering honest opinions with his grades. It is clear that his opinions can be respected and this is just one more example.

While it may appear that a "mistake" was made here, I would argue that this is the type of info that we should expect from a reputable authenticator. And it is clear that the "mistake" would be on the manufacturer's end, not JT's.

This reminds me of the Chris Rock bit about lowered expectations. Right, it is clear that JT tried to do his homework before authenticating and grading this bat. That's what I'd hope to get for my $150 and that's what anyone would hope for because that's why people buy PSA/DNA authenticated bats at a premium.

Has JT never authenticated a Chipper Jones black Mizuno or even a blonde one? The fact that the statement that he has never used a Mizuno in games was printed on the LOA makes me seriously question some things. This is just another example of how even reputable authenticators' opinions are subject to questioning, even if opinions are honest.

[Capital-Sports]

The only thing that sucks about black Chipper Jones Mizuno bats is that ASI and Historic Auctions have been selling these for years.......un used....

[5kRunner]

Not at all glad that you got a poor grade here -- I hope the "appeal" comes back positive for you.

However, I am glad to see that JT is offering honest opinions with his grades. It is clear that his opinions can be respected and this is just one more example.

While it may appear that a "mistake" was made here, I would argue that this is the type of info that we should expect from a reputable authenticator. And it is clear that the "mistake" would be on the manufacturer's end, not JT's.

I'm by no means questioning John's opinion on this bat. I've never talked with him, and he's probably forgot more about bats than I will ever know. But there are two statements on that LOA that are confusing/incorrect. The statement from Mizuno stating Jones has never used their bats in a game, and the statement about Jones only using a black bat from the right side of the plate. He may be referring only to the labeling period of this bat, and that might be right. But as it is stated, I think its confusing. And if he isn't referring to the labeling period of this bat, those statements are incorrect.

[joelsabi]

labeling period says 2003 to 2006 on the LOA. So Taube probably was looking at images from that period.

they photos you guys provide was from April 1998 and some of the cards were late 1990s


maybe thats why. let us know what Taube finds.

[joelsabi]

Getty Editorial Image #307978 & #307985

Looks like a Mizuno to me.



this is from April 1998

[redoctober]

This reminds me of the Chris Rock bit about lowered expectations. Right, it is clear that JT tried to do his homework before authenticating and grading this bat. That's what I'd hope to get for my $150 and that's what anyone would hope for because that's why people buy PSA/DNA authenticated bats at a premium.

Has JT never authenticated a Chipper Jones black Mizuno or even a blonde one? The fact that the statement that he has never used a Mizuno in games was printed on the LOA makes me seriously question some things. This is just another example of how even reputable authenticators' opinions are subject to questioning, even if opinions are honest.



I can't agree more -- authenticators are simply providing an opinion. I would be very interested to see if JT has EVER authenticated a Mizuno Chipper bat higher than GU5. If so, then, absolutely, this opinion would come into serious question.

From my collecting/observations, authentic black GU'd Chipper bats are always Glomar or Rawlings. I have never seen Minuno's in this decade.

Anyone have a GU 6 or better from JT????


JT -- your thoughts???

[suicide_squeeze]

Just got home and read this thread for the first time....

Here's my 2 cents as a LONGtime Chipper fan....and I am not posting this info to burst anyone's bubble....I just know a lot about Chipper as I have always felt he would one day make it to the 500 home-run club. Therefore, he has always been closely followed by me. (And as a side note, I believe he has always played the game clean.....NO PED's IMHO).



I'm not so sure Taube is wrong.....but it's the old "symantics" game.

If you refer to a "pre-season" game as a game where a bat used in it makes the bat a "gamer"....then it's a boo-boo based on your definition.

I am from the school that if the at bat is in a game that doesn't count towards the players career total......it ain't squat. It's not a true "gamer". It "doesn't count"......doesn't matter......has very little significance.

That said, I know from following Chipper's career, that he has been a LONG TIME (career-long) Rawlings guy, has used "black Glomar" bats for a few years, and on occasion in his early career (and perhaps on a few trial basis times here and there) played around with L.S.'s (BMH can probably qualify to what extent).

But I do know this: John Taube, when referring to a Black Mizuno as "not used in a game".......he is referring to the fact Chipper does not use them in a regular season game. He used them in pre-season, and most likely in batting practice (as is the case for a lot of major leaguers......to change up between B.P. and "gamers" in what brand or stlye bat they use).

He also has strickly used black bats while hitting from the right side of the plate, while regigated to blonde bats from the left.......his whole career.

Are there exceptions? Of course there are, and we can all speculate as to the reasons why....but they would not be important. Chipper uses as a rule blonde bats as a lefty, and black as a righty.....as a rule.

[vonbrandingo]

Just got home and read this thread for the first time....

Here's my 2 cents as a LONGtime Chipper fan....and I am not posting this info to burst anyone's bubble....I just know a lot about Chipper as I have always felt he would one day make it to the 500 home-run club. Therefore, he has always been closely followed by me. (And as a side note, I believe he has always played the game clean.....NO PED's IMHO).



I'm not so sure Taube is wrong.....but it's the old "symantics" game.

If you refer to a "pre-season" game as a game where a bat used in it makes the bat a "gamer"....then it's a boo-boo based on your definition.

I am from the school that if the at bat is in a game that doesn't count towards the players career total......it ain't squat. It's not a true "gamer". It "doesn't count"......doesn't matter......has very little significance.

That said, I know from following Chipper's career, that he has been a LONG TIME (career-long) Rawlings guy, has used "black Glomar" bats for a few years, and on occasion in his early career (and perhaps on a few trial basis times here and there) played around with L.S.'s (BMH can probably qualify to what extent).

But I do know this: John Taube, when referring to a Black Mizuno as "not used in a game".......he is referring to the fact Chipper does not use them in a regular season game. He used them in pre-season, and most likely in batting practice (as is the case for a lot of major leaguers......to change up between B.P. and "gamers" in what brand or stlye bat they use).

He also has strickly used black bats while hitting from the right side of the plate, while regigated to blonde bats from the left.......his whole career.

Are there exceptions? Of course there are, and we can all speculate as to the reasons why....but they would not be important. Chipper uses as a rule blonde bats as a lefty, and black as a righty.....as a rule.

You're not bursting my bubble, in fact I think you're outside the bubble with your 2 cents.

[vonbrandingo]

This bat is 34" long and Mizuno confirmed that 34" bats like this one were sent to Chipper to try during 2003-06. Now the real question with this bat is whether Chipper used the 34" bats as gamers since he used 35" bats during this period. Any evidence (photo, print, etc.) proving yes or no would be greatly appreciated.

[Capital-Sports]

Call ASI, they probably have 1000's of these bats left.