Doesn T Vick Deserve A Second Chance?

[dirtyla2000]

I cant believe some people think MICHAEL VICK should not be allowed to play ball again! He did his time and lost everything! I would love to see him back! I believe what drunk drivers do to be much worst, and in sports that sort of behaviour is tolerted. Just because you got lucky and didn t kill anyone while boozed up is no excuse!

[roygrady]

I totally agree.

[Mr.3000]

I have ZERO compassion for either Vick brother. They are, in my own opinion, thugs. I have zero tolerance for thugs. What's worse, is that they both act like privileged thugs....as if they deserver special treatment and/or are allowed to act the way they act because they have some atheltic ability.

They are not the exception these days, they are the norm when it comes to athletes coming out of Virginia.


I live in Va. I see it on a daily basis.

[sportscentury]

I don't have a problem with him playing again, though I will admit that I doubt I'll ever be able to look at or think of Vick again without immediately thinking of the chronic cruelty of animals he financed and otherwise enabled/supported. He did his time and if the NFL wants to let him play, I don't have a problem with it. But it will be hard for me to simply forget his crimes. As for the comparison of Vick's behavior to drunk driving, that is irrelevant. The latter has nothing to do with the assessment or treatment of the former. Murder is worse than theft, but I hope we would not let a thief off the hook simply because he did not murder anyone. Let's stick to the issue.

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/3881/vickgang.jpg
I'm sure that there is a team that will sign him.

[stkmtimo]

I have ZERO compassion for either Vick brother. They are, in my own opinion, thugs. I have zero tolerance for thugs. What's worse, is that they both act like privileged thugs....as if they deserver special treatment and/or are allowed to act the way they act because they have some atheltic ability.

They are not the exception these days, they are the norm when it comes to athletes coming out of Virginia.


I live in Va. I see it on a daily basis.

I'm with you. I have no compassion for either brother. Both have had such a long history of legal problems that there's no doubt things will continue that way. I'll never forget the issues Marcus had while at VT from bringing alcohol to three underage girls at a party, to brandishing a firearm at a McDonald's, to having sexual relations with a 15 year old girl and lastly, to stomping on Elvis Dumervil's leg during a game against Lousville. Sadly, that's only the beginning on the litany of legal problems he has faced.

On the other hand, what type of person does it take to subject animals to the type of cruelty that Michael subjected them to? All I can say about that is that what he did to those dogs was both disgusting and inhumane. Does he deserve a second chance? I don't think so and I can't say I will be pulling for him if he does come back.

Tim

[trsent]

So, the guy committed a crime, served his time and now he should be able to reenter society and continue his life, right?

[cohibasmoker]

So Mr. Vick served his time and now he seeks compassion from us and the NFL so he can return to football and make millions of dollars. What was the line in the Batman Begins movie, "Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society".

Jim

[xpress34]

So Mr. Vick served his time and now he seeks compassion from us and the NFL so he can return to football and make millions of dollars. What was the line in the Batman Begins movie, "Criminals thrive on the indulgence of society".

Jim

Well stated.

In response to the earlier statement about drunk driving:


I cant believe some people think MICHAEL VICK should not be allowed to play ball again! He did his time and lost everything! I would love to see him back! I believe what drunk drivers do to be much worst, and in sports that sort of behaviour is tolerted. Just because you got lucky and didn t kill anyone while boozed up is no excuse!

He should lose everything - he's a CRIMINAL!!! And you're right, just because you didn't KILL anyone is no excuse... well this piece of CRAP has NO excuse - he went OUT OF HIS WAY to KILL Dogs that didn't fight as well as he wanted them too.

He had everything and thought he was ABOVE THE LAW - so now people like you want to REWARD him and let him keep his former lavish lifestyle and go back to making millions??? Great lesson for the younger generations:

"Become wealthy and famous, do whatever the hell you want. If you get caught, do your time and we'll make sure you get right back to the status quo you were at previously."

So I guess you think once Uncle Bernie Maddoff serves his time he should be allowed to come back and manage people's money again because he's served his time??? He did drunk drive or kill anyone...

What about all the other 'white collar' criminals??? We should let them all go back to what made them rich in the first place - even though they are also CRIMINALS???

There is NO Reasonable argument that can be made why ANY Athlete or Celebrity that has committed a crime - particularly a FELONY like Michael Vick - should be allowed to just resume their previous 'Jet Set' lifestyle.

Show me where American business is openly hiring Ex-Cons who also 'served their time' so they can move ahead in life.

If Vick takes the $10 an hour Construction Job he has talked about taking and does some back breaking REAL work like the rest of us, I will be impressed.

It still doesn't make me believe the NFL should just open their arms and welcome him back - but, unfortunately (like every Pro Sport) they will because he was one of their ELITE and the bottom line is the $$$ he will bring to the game from the fans.

Just my .02

- Chris

(P.S. - JIM (cohiba)... per the docs yesterday, I should be back at work by the 2nd week of June which means we will start the Negotiation/Settlement phase... which means I can complete my hat deal with you sometime in either June or July!!! I will drop you an eMail next week... Chris)

[trsent]

Michael Vick is a moron who lied when he got caught so he went to jail. The guy promoted dog fights. Sick? Yes, very, but his punishment was set and now he should look to return to his line of work and rejoin society when everything ends in a few months.

I personally felt he was an overrated quarterback. Broke Bobby Douglas' record for quarterback rushing but was a poor quarterback who couldn't pass. He was the most popular player in the sport before his controversy started.

He didn't get caught killing humans, he didn't get caught dealing or abusing drugs. He got caught in a dog fighting deal that would have blown over if he didn't lie when first questioned about it.

So, he was punished, he feels rehabilitated and now it is time to find work in his field of expertise. Best of luck to him in his pursuit.

I just finished an issue of Sports Illustrated from 1983. The issue or so before had a great article about Howard Cosell. The letters section in the back of the magazine tore SI to pieces for the piece. People just hated Cosell. No difference here - People don't want to let a guy who was punished for his non-human life threatening crime come back to society? Why? He is a moron, but he deserves a chance to fail again in the NFL.

[xpress34]

Per the Maddoff comment - should have read DIDN'T Drunk Drive or Kill anyone...

(LOVE the Post Edit Features here!!! :rolleyes: )

[David]

I give to animal charities and have had pet dogs all my life, and think Vick should be given a second chance.

Duly note that I believe one gives forgiveness to whose who sincerely ask for it, not those who don't. People would often say in past years "Pete Rose has suffered enough, it's it time we forgive him for lying?," even though Rose was continuing to lie (a fact he later revealed), much less never asked anyone for forgiveness. At the time, forgiveness was neither asked for, nor deserved.

[xpress34]

Michael Vick is a moron who lied when he got caught so he went to jail. The guy promoted dog fights. Sick? Yes, very, but his punishment was set and now he should look to return to his line of work and rejoin society when everything ends in a few months.

He didn't get caught killing humans, he didn't get caught dealing or abusing drugs. He got caught in a dog fighting deal that would have blown over if he didn't lie when first questioned about it.

So, he was punished, he feels rehabilitated and now it is time to find work in his field of expertise. Best of luck to him in his pursuit.

I just finished an issue of Sports Illustrated from 1983. The issue or so before had a great article about Howard Cosell. The letters section in the back of the magazine tore SI to pieces for the piece. People just hated Cosell. No difference here - People don't want to let a guy who was punished for his non-human life threatening crime come back to society? Why? He is a moron, but he deserves a chance to fail again in the NFL.

So if I worked for you and one night I decided to go on B&E (Breaking and Entering) Spree - no threat to life, no weapons - and ripped off house after house and got caught, you'd just hire me back after I served my time??? RIGHT...

I'm guessing you don't own any animals either... we're not just talking about KILLING a defenseless animal - we're talking about SEVERELY ABUSING IT to make it want to kill other animals and then if it can't do the job after you've mistreated it for months (if not years) on end you CLUB IT TO DEATH (no gunshot - CLUBBED - where's the mercy???) because it 'failed' you???

And the crime would not have blown over - it's a FELONY crime, not a misdemeanor... so Vick isn't 'just' an Ex-Con, he's a FELON.

Hell man, OJ was AQUITTED of Murder - which means he 'did his time' in the Court of Law... would you hire him???

I have NOTHING against Vick rejoining Society... I have EVERYTHING against him being HANDED the Keys to the Castle on a Silver Platter simply because of who he was...

Denny McClain was busted for WHITE COLLAR Crime - NO Hurting or Killing of ANY Animal or Human - I didn't see the MLB lining up to offer him a chance to play again... oh, that's right... that was back when we weren't scared to speak our minds (i.e. Politcal Correctness) and everyone that did something wrong paid the FULL price... they weren't fed the BS that society somehow failed them and therefore owed them something when they finished serving their time.

And it's arguments like these FOR the THUGS and GANG BANGERS in the NBA and NFL that make me continue to watch MLB. They may not be perfect, but at least their is a set policy with the 3 strikes and you're out... I don't read stories about MLB players pulling guns in Strip Joints or Choking their bosses, etc., etc... Just like th epeople pulling for what's his head from the Giants who shot himself with his own gun in the night club... everyone thinks he should just be able to come back to the NFL - he didn't commit a crime against anyone - but he did committ a FELONY in the State of New York!!! You or I would lose our job and be in jail already. Same should apply to EVERYONE.

- Chris

[David]

In other words, forgiveness is for the repentant not the unrepentant. How much the still unrepentant was penalized is neither here nor there as far as forgiveness goes.

[trsent]

So if I worked for you and one night I decided to go on B&E (Breaking and Entering) Spree - no threat to life, no weapons - and ripped off house after house and got caught, you'd just hire me back after I served my time??? RIGHT...

I'm guessing you don't own any animals either... we're not just talking about KILLING a defenseless animal - we're talking about SEVERELY ABUSING IT to make it want to kill other animals and then if it can't do the job after you've mistreated it for months (if not years) on end you CLUB IT TO DEATH (no gunshot - CLUBBED - where's the mercy???) because it 'failed' you???

And the crime would not have blown over - it's a FELONY crime, not a misdemeanor... so Vick isn't 'just' an Ex-Con, he's a FELON.

Hell man, OJ was AQUITTED of Murder - which means he 'did his time' in the Court of Law... would you hire him???

I have NOTHING against Vick rejoining Society... I have EVERYTHING against him being HANDED the Keys to the Castle on a Silver Platter simply because of who he was...

Denny McClain was busted for WHITE COLLAR Crime - NO Hurting or Killing of ANY Animal or Human - I didn't see the MLB lining up to offer him a chance to play again... oh, that's right... that was back when we weren't scared to speak our minds (i.e. Politcal Correctness) and everyone that did something wrong paid the FULL price... they weren't fed the BS that society somehow failed them and therefore owed them something when they finished serving their time.

And it's arguments like these FOR the THUGS and GANG BANGERS in the NBA and NFL that make me continue to watch MLB. They may not be perfect, but at least their is a set policy with the 3 strikes and you're out... I don't read stories about MLB players pulling guns in Strip Joints or Choking their bosses, etc., etc... Just like th epeople pulling for what's his head from the Giants who shot himself with his own gun in the night club... everyone thinks he should just be able to come back to the NFL - he didn't commit a crime against anyone - but he did committ a FELONY in the State of New York!!! You or I would lose our job and be in jail already. Same should apply to EVERYONE.

- Chris

Chris, your comparisons if I would hire a guy or not are not fair.

Will The Atlanta Falcons offer him to come back? I doubt it.

Will other NFL teams find room for him to play for them? You bet!

Comparing OJ Simpson, Denny McLain and Michael Vick doesn't make sense. If football is strong enough to deny him work, that is their choice, but I can tell you, he has a right to apply for jobs in his field of expertise.

People can bash him forever, but he has a right to apply for work. If they decide not to offer him work - That is his loss, his mistake.

[Ozric]

I'm actually always surprised about these discussions as sports has been and will always be about winning. Nothing else and no matter what. It does not matter if it is little league or the pros. We can debate about if he should be allowed to come back or not, but it simply does not matter. If someone thinks he can help their team win, he would be allowed to come back even if he murdered a person... Personally, he may have done his time, but does anyone really think he is even the slightest bit remorseful. Remorseful for being caught maybe, but not remorseful for committing the crime. He is a thug and will always be a thug, but hey... he did his time and had mad skills... Why don't we let some team hell bent on winning toss more money his way. Doing the time people does not mean that the person is rehabilitated, especially when they are going to walk right back out into the Brinks truck. Gee, just because he served his sentence, must make it okay though.

[kingjammy24]

..He did his time and lost everything!

but he didn't lose everything. he's still alive isn't he? the same can't be said for many of his dogs.

imo, the punishment didn't fit the crime. put him in the ring with a couple of pits like he did to his dogs. if he comes out alive, then he earned it. if not, no big loss. he's just another piece of garbage; little more than a vile, repugnant idiot-child possessing every loathsome characteristic of the human species and even a few outside of it; completely bereft of any semblance of humanity, he seems suited for little beyond maggot fodder. if not for his ability to throw a ball and all of the caligulan proclivities that that ability enabled, it's hard to imagine he wouldn't have spent his life plumbing new depths of human depravity much like the other vick grotesque that his mother contemptibly unleashed unto society.

most of the dogs i've met were better "people" than many people i've met.

rudy.

[both-teams-played-hard]

So, the guy committed a crime, served his time and now he should be able to reenter society and continue his life, right?

Joel, do you have any pets? I only ask because it will put some of your opinions in perspective.

[both-teams-played-hard]

he's just another piece of garbage; little more than a vile, repugnant idiot-child possessing every loathsome characteristic of the human species and even a few outside of it; completely bereft of any semblance of humanity, he seems suited for little beyond maggot fodder. if not for his ability to throw a ball and all of the caligulan proclivities that that ability enabled, it's hard to imagine he wouldn't have spent his life plumbing new depths of human depravity much like the other vick grotesque that his mother contemptibly unleashed unto society.

C'mon Rudy....don't hold back, tell us how you really feel...

[ndevlin]

I actually agree with just about everything Joel is saying, and yes I have several pets. I have no problem with the guy wanting to play again. If a team wants to pick him up, I'd say so be it.

I dont think the man should be denied a job because he committed a crime. He served his time whether we agreed with the term or not. He wants to play again, he's qualified, and someone wants to give him a shot, thats their business.

Think about it too.... its not like he'll have much of a chance in the NFL anyways. He wasnt the greatest quarterback to begin with.

[suicide_squeeze]

So if I worked for you and one night I decided to go on B&E (Breaking and Entering) Spree - no threat to life, no weapons - and ripped off house after house and got caught, you'd just hire me back after I served my time??? RIGHT...

I'm guessing you don't own any animals either... we're not just talking about KILLING a defenseless animal - we're talking about SEVERELY ABUSING IT to make it want to kill other animals and then if it can't do the job after you've mistreated it for months (if not years) on end you CLUB IT TO DEATH (no gunshot - CLUBBED - where's the mercy???) because it 'failed' you???

And the crime would not have blown over - it's a FELONY crime, not a misdemeanor... so Vick isn't 'just' an Ex-Con, he's a FELON.

Hell man, OJ was AQUITTED of Murder - which means he 'did his time' in the Court of Law... would you hire him???

I have NOTHING against Vick rejoining Society... I have EVERYTHING against him being HANDED the Keys to the Castle on a Silver Platter simply because of who he was...

Denny McClain was busted for WHITE COLLAR Crime - NO Hurting or Killing of ANY Animal or Human - I didn't see the MLB lining up to offer him a chance to play again... oh, that's right... that was back when we weren't scared to speak our minds (i.e. Politcal Correctness) and everyone that did something wrong paid the FULL price... they weren't fed the BS that society somehow failed them and therefore owed them something when they finished serving their time.

And it's arguments like these FOR the THUGS and GANG BANGERS in the NBA and NFL that make me continue to watch MLB. They may not be perfect, but at least their is a set policy with the 3 strikes and you're out... I don't read stories about MLB players pulling guns in Strip Joints or Choking their bosses, etc., etc... Just like th epeople pulling for what's his head from the Giants who shot himself with his own gun in the night club... everyone thinks he should just be able to come back to the NFL - he didn't commit a crime against anyone - but he did committ a FELONY in the State of New York!!! You or I would lose our job and be in jail already. Same should apply to EVERYONE.

- Chris


Hey Chris...........I'm with you.


Why do you think we as a society are in such a state of......mess.

Vick did his time. He paid his debt to society. But he was killing society. He was torturing and killing dogs that didn't make the "cut".

So in honor of the dogs, I saw we throw Mr. Vick in a cage, hand pick a mean, nasty murderous thug from the highest security prison we can find, and tell them both to fight to the death.

If they both tire in their efforts, and fail to "off" eachother, then let's take em out in the "backyard" .................and drown em.

Long live Lassie.

[suicide_squeeze]

Eesch....

Rudy, (kingjammy)

I hadn't yet read your post when I zipped mine off the keyboard. Seems we kind felt the same in his paying his "debt" to society.

I just wanted you to know.....no plagerism intended, just similar in thought. Brought up following the same values I guess.

Regards,

Steve

[suicide_squeeze]

Could you imagine Vick getting offered a job in Cleveland......

He'll do real well in the "dog pound".

[kingjammy24]

I'm actually always surprised about these discussions as sports has been and will always be about winning. Nothing else and no matter what...

in many ways it's a lot like this hobby. auction houses are caught committing all sorts of offenses yet most collectors would gladly overlook almost any offense if it meant obtaining a highly desired piece. an auction house could admit to shill bidding, item doctoring, credit card fraud, you name it..but if a big grail came to market, everyone would bid anyway. to this day, AMI, historic auctions, and broadway rick still get bids.

seriously, at what point is a superbowl trophy simply not worth it? that is, how completely insane does a player have to get in order for fans to finally decide that it's not worth a winning season? or is it worth it at any cost? i'm guessing there are fans who would welcome rae carruth back. at what point do you say that your own revulsion over the crimes committed, sense of sympathy for the victims and sense of morality outweigh your desire for a championship parade? at what point does being a sentient human being take priority over being a sports fan?

vick broke dogs' necks and slammed them to the ground to kill them..but golly gee, can't wait to see what he'll do when he suits up against some rival team! that's gonna be a kick ass sunday! dogs tortured, maimed and killed but it's all good if vick can rack up some wins!

i agree with many who say that what these players do in their private time is their business; that it's not up to fans to judge them as people, only as players. however, you still have to draw the line when it comes to something incredibly egregious like murder. we're not talking about a player who cheats on his wife or his taxes. we're talking about a depraved lunatic who killed and tortured animals for entertainment. there's no rehabilitating something that was never human to begin with. the only silver lining to vick returning to the NFL is that it affords him the opportunity to sustain a life-threatening injury.

rudy.

[trsent]

Joel, do you have any pets? I only ask because it will put some of your opinions in perspective.

Common, I have owned pets, I do not have any now, but that doesn't mean the guy should not have the same chance to find work that anyone else does with a record or without.


Could you imagine Vick getting offered a job in Cleveland......

He'll do real well in the "dog pound".

That is a funny concept!

[kudu]

So, the guy committed a crime, served his time and now he should be able to reenter society and continue his life, right?

Sure he can continue his life, but not as a high paid athlete.

[trsent]

Sure he can continue his life, but not as a high paid athlete.

Why? Who are we to make those decisions.

If someone owns a team and wants to sign him, they have the right. Their money. If you don't like it, don't watch, don't go, but don't tell society that if you commit a crime, serve your punishment and are rehabilitated now you have to dig ditches for the rest of your life.

I am pretty sure this is how America works. Other countries don't work this way, so if you like their policies better, I assume they will accept new citizens.

Otherwise, this is why I love America. We are the land of the free.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Common, I have owned pets, I do not have any now, but that doesn't mean the guy should not have the same chance to find work that anyone else does with a record or without.

I am from the South, and the term "common" is used as an insult. I am sure this is not how you used it. What is the NFL's policy on hiring convicted felons?

[dirtyla2000]

I don't have a problem with him playing again, though I will admit that I doubt I'll ever be able to look at or think of Vick again without immediately thinking of the chronic cruelty of animals he financed and otherwise enabled/supported. He did his time and if the NFL wants to let him play, I don't have a problem with it. But it will be hard for me to simply forget his crimes. As for the comparison of Vick's behavior to drunk driving, that is irrelevant. The latter has nothing to do with the assessment or treatment of the former. Murder is worse than theft, but I hope we would not let a thief off the hook simply because he did not murder anyone. Let's stick to the issue.
The issue is the same,a drunk driver is more dangerous to me than a guy who fought dogs and then killed them,SORRY.I will forgive a thief a lot faster than a murderer,COME ON!!!!!!

[dirtyla2000]

WOW,thank god you are not a prison warden! compassion says alot of a society! by the way they were dogs!

[Vintagedeputy]

Vick knowingly committed and crime and went to prison as he should have.

Too many kids idolize football players and prison. The 2 should never meet. Vick should be banished from the NFL to set an example for everyone.

[rose14]

Vick and anyone else who fight animals for amusements are the biggest cowards in society. Did Vick serve his time? Some will say yes but I don't think the punishment was severe enough. You do realize that he not only tortured and killed his own dogs but his "Bad Boyz Club" also took people's pets and put them in the rings with their dogs and watched them rip them to shreds.

Cowards like them are too chicken $hit to get in a boxing or MMA ring and fight as they would rather use an animal for their amusement. I would give anything to get in the ring at my family's boxing gym with Michael Vick or any cowards like him for just three minutes. Give me three minutes, that's all I need.

The problem with society today is that it is just too forgiving. Do you really think that Vick is sorry for what he did to those dogs? I don't. He is sorry that he got caught and lost all the money that he did. That's the only thing he is remorseful about.

I think Vick should be court ordered as part of his deal that he must volunteer at an animal shelter or sanctuary for 8 hours a week for the next ten years. The first week he misses he should be sent to prison for the remainder of the sentence.

[both-teams-played-hard]

The issue is the same,a drunk driver is more dangerous to me than a guy who fought dogs and then killed them,SORRY.I will forgive a thief a lot faster than a murderer,COME ON!!!!!!
Have you ever been a guardian to a pet in your adult life? Michael Vick is a sociopath.

[kingjammy24]

"I will forgive a thief a lot faster than a murderer"

vick is a murderer; the worst kind really as he did it solely for amusement and to victims who couldn't defend themselves. he's a psychopath. you keep mentioning how drunk driving is worse as if that somehow puts vick's crimes in a better light. they're both bad. sports leagues tolerate all sorts of miscreants that wouldn't even get hired in the "real world". as a convicted felon, vick would be hardpressed to even get a job delivering pizza. in the NFL, he can be a star.

"compassion says alot of a society!"

some folks step so far over the line they don't warrant compassion.

"by the way they were dogs!"

that statement speaks more of your own mental deficiencies than anything else. "compassion says alot of a society!". the dogs that vick killed were worth infinitely more than the festering bag of crap that is michael vick. good for you that you're able to see past all that murder and torture to what's really important; how many yards vick can throw for!

rose14: well said.

rudy.

[jonincleve]

michael vick broke our societies laws and served our societies punishment. those are the rules we set and voted our congressman to set. if you feel it should be a longer sentence then vote that way.

he is now a free man (probation) and if the nfl allows him, he can sign with a team and be paid accordingly. it is my right as a fan to spend my money as i see fit. if, god forbid, he signs with the browns, i will not be buying any michael vick jerseys for myself or family members. will i still support the team, yes.

nobody has mentioned i believe david little for the rams. he killed a person drunk driving and still played football. actually he was arrested recently for drunk driving AGAIN. talk about blowing a second chance. i am all for giving someone a second chance but not a third chance.

back to vick, he deserves a second chance according to our laws. he is on a very short leash (pun intended). screw up bye,bye. otherwise earn as much money as you can and pay off your creditors for bankruptcy, so the taxpayers do not have to foot that bill. raise your family and be a model citizen for the rest of your life, it can be done.

just my .02

take care
john

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7200/vick77.jpg

[sportscentury]

Dirtyla2000 -- Honestly, your arguments are so convoluted and generally confused that it's hard to know where to start. I am starting to better understand the motivation underlying your anti-Nationals threads/posts now. My sense is that you simply enjoy instigating GUU members, which is quite sad ... as is your take on the Vick situation.

[5kRunner]

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7200/vick77.jpg

I was just going to mention that.

[rose14]

One has to really question the mental capacity of a person that gets pleasure from seeing an innocent living creature being tortured and killed right in front of them. People like that have no compassion for living things and history shows that those people have proggressed to take that sick thinking to the next level.

How about Vick playing in the NFL next year for his life just like his dogs did?

Not to turn this into a political thread but the bleeding heart liberals are huge problem in what is wrong with this country. They act like that the criminal is the victim all while forgeting the true victim. I am a firm believer in an eye for an eye.

There are just too many people on this earth that have committed some very heinous crimes and were given life in prison so that the tax payers can pay for them for the rest of their natural lives. Life in prison is far too good for those people and in my opinion do not deserve to breathe the same air that you and I do. They chose to do what they did and must suffer the ultimate consequense for those actions.

[dirtyla2000]

Dirtyla2000 -- Honestly, your arguments are so convoluted and generally confused that it's hard to know where to start. I am starting to better understand the motivation underlying your anti-Nationals threads/posts now. My sense is that you simply enjoy instigating GUU members, which is quite sad ... as is your take on the Vick situation.
WHAT,one has nothing to do with the other! I made a simple point for giving someone,anyone a second chance,I am the one being attacked! I have instigated no one on this topic!

[suicide_squeeze]

I was just going to mention that.

I'm sorry, I am not familiar with this hand written note. What is it from?

[reed1216]

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7200/vick77.jpg

I'm not sure where this came from, but I think it's a very generalized comment. While many serial killers and/or sociopaths start out by harming animals, I imagine there are also other reasons. Maybe, as some have argued, there are some cultural factors involved that led him to fight dogs. Maybe Vick thought he was bulletproof and was engaging in an activity that was entertaining to him and others. I'm not in a position to judge his motives, so I won't. But I do not think it's fair to assume that Vick's activities will one day lead to worse behavior.

I am the proud guardian of a chihuhua/rat terrier mix, named Hannibal. I absolutely love that guy and have had dogs since I was 4 years old. If anyone inflicted any harm on any of my pets, I would be pissed. However, I would go through the proper channels to make sure the person who hurt my dog was prosecuted. That's pretty much what has happened to Vick. I might think that anyone who would harm Hannibal deserves a life sentence, but that's just not realistic in our society.

I totally agree with the comments made by Reid (sportscentury). I don't like Vick and won't ever look at him the same way again. However, he does deserve an opportunity to play football again and if he's still good enough to play in the NFL, he should be allowed to do so. With that said, if the NFL decides to suspend him for a year, I won't lose any sleep over that. If the NFL has a policy of suspending players who commit felonies for one season, perhaps an additional year of being suspended by the league is the best course of action.

The bottom line is that we all have a right to correct our mistakes, as long we are accountable for them. As far as Vick is concerned, maybe he hasn't changed. However, he is serving the sentence the court gave him and in that regard, he is paying for his acts. I think that makes him eligible for another chance, either this year, or next.

[dirtyla2000]

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/7200/vick77.jpg

I'm not sure where this came from, but I think it's a very generalized comment. While many serial killers and/or sociopaths start out by harming animals, I imagine there are also other reasons. Maybe, as some have argued, there are some cultural factors involved that led him to fight dogs. Maybe Vick thought he was bulletproof and was engaging in an activity that was entertaining to him and others. I'm not in a position to judge his motives, so I won't. But I do not think it's fair to assume that Vick's activities will one day lead to worse behavior.

I am the proud guardian of a chihuhua/rat terrier mix, named Hannibal. I absolutely love that guy and have had dogs since I was 4 years old. If anyone inflicted any harm on any of my pets, I would be pissed. However, I would go through the proper channels to make sure the person who hurt my dog was prosecuted. That's pretty much what has happened to Vick. I might think that anyone who would harm Hannibal deserves a life sentence, but that's just not realistic in our society.

I totally agree with the comments made by Reid (sportscentury). I don't like Vick and won't ever look at him the same way again. However, he does deserve an opportunity to play football again and if he's still good enough to play in the NFL, he should be allowed to do so. With that said, if the NFL decides to suspend him for a year, I won't lose any sleep over that. If the NFL has a policy of suspending players who commit felonies for one season, perhaps an additional year of being suspended by the league is the best course of action.

The bottom line is that we all have a right to correct our mistakes, as long we are accountable for them. As far as Vick is concerned, maybe he hasn't changed. However, he is serving the sentence the court gave him and in that regard, he is paying for his acts. I think that makes him eligible for another chance, either this year, or next.
well put!

[both-teams-played-hard]

I'm sorry, I am not familiar with this hand written note. What is it from?
The note was written by Vick as an answer to an empathy test given by PETA. A "google" search will find it. Sounds like a 5th grader with a cheat sheet. There is a line about chickens being athletic. It is funny. Not "ha-ha" funny, but sick and twisted funny. Don't forget-Vick has a nice highlight reel, but a highlight reel has never won a game. He will never play in the NFL again.
Maybe in some third-world league like the CFL.;)

[reed1216]

BTPH- WOW!! I was not aware that the note was written by Vick- very interesting. It does look like a fifth graders cheat sheet. I don't recall anyone mistaking Vick for an employee of NASA...

While I do believe and support Vick being allowed to resume his NFL career at some point, I must admit that I'm glad the Bears went out and got a franchise QB in the off season. If the Bears hadn't acquired Cutler and signed Vick instead, I'd be looking for a new football team to root for.

[flaco1801]

let him get a 40 hr. a week job first.... lets see how he handles the life most of us lead.... then maybe some owner will take a chance on this "mutt"

[suicide_squeeze]

I know we are all entitled to our own opinions, and I respect each and every one.

It is mine that the only thing "Well put!" regarding this whole subject matter was when Michael Vick was put in prison.

If and when he lands on a team, he will have to deal with the wrath of animal-lovers hell from the stands for the rest of his playing days, if not life altogether.

And those of you who feel that is wrong....remember that it was he who brought this on himself.


........with his sick, crosswired brain he genetically inherited from his defective parents who seem to breed degenerate life form like himself and his brother. I don't see any reason to have one ounce of mercy on a piece of garbage who mutilated dogs and held them under water to drown because they weren't exceptional "killers".

This twisted talk of "rehabilitation" and "forgiveness" and "second chances" is exactly why we have so many damn problems in society.

So....we stick these defects in a hole and feed them for years with tax dollars which could be used to build better schools for the illegals children we pay our community hospitals to deliver and take care of.

Opps, I'm sorry.....I'm getting off base.

I will be watching the fans in the stands barking at Vick, holding up the signs saying "Come over to MY house, Michael, my ROTTWEILER wants to say HI..." and the whole time, I'll be shaking my head at society and "second chances".

The earlier example of the Ram linebacker who killed while being intoxicated behind the wheel..........only to be arrested again after that sickening event for yet ANOTHER DUI......is all you need to know about rehabilitation.

It doesn't work.

You can shave a tiger.....dye his hair to resemble Dennis Rodman during his "coming out" basketball years, and take it to sensitivity training for three years.

But when that cat gets hungry, he shread you to pieces to fill his gut.

I say the HELL with the system....let's do this the old fashion way and take back our country and laws our forefathers laid to reign the land.

Take Vick back out in the alley and plug him.

THAT'S true rehabilitation.

[suicide_squeeze]

The note was written by Vick as an answer to an empathy test given by PETA. A "google" search will find it. Sounds like a 5th grader with a cheat sheet. There is a line about chickens being athletic. It is funny. Not "ha-ha" funny, but sick and twisted funny. Don't forget-Vick has a nice highlight reel, but a highlight reel has never won a game. He will never play in the NFL again.
Maybe in some third-world league like the CFL.;)

Thanks for the clarification on the note, b-t-p-h. That was my suspicion, that it was some kind of answer written by Vick himself, but I didn't want to make a guess.

I also agree with you that he will not play again in the NFL. He has way, way, WAY too much baggage, and like someone mentioned before....he wasn't even a winner as a quarterback. He could scramble like hell, and was fast as a leopard.....but that probably came from his activities as a youth while leaving the scenes of his crimes....

Stick a fork in him.

[trsent]

Sounds like a lot of people do not understand how the laws work in the United States of America.

Love it or Leave it but stop making your own rules because that is not how it works.

Or, vote for lawmakers who want an eye for an eye punishment system.

Good luck!

[kingjammy24]

Sounds like a lot of people do not understand how the laws work in the United States of America.

sounds like someone can't read the thread title. the title asks if vick deserves another chance. every tool in the world knows he's obviously receiving one. the question was whether it's deserved. any failure to comprehend basic english is beyond the responsibility of other forum members.

rudy.

[trsent]

sounds like someone can't read the thread title. the title asks if vick deserves another chance. every tool in the world knows he's obviously receiving one. the question was whether it's deserved. any failure to comprehend basic english is beyond the responsibility of other forum members.

rudy.

Rudy - Again, you want him to be attacked by dogs and not let back into his line of work. Many on this forum worship you and your work, but anyone can see from you post above that you are just a bully with an agenda to attack those you do not like.

Who are you to know what I comprehend or not?

Who is the tool? You think he should be attacked by dogs as his punishment. Wow - Sounds like a great world you want us to live in.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Joel
Could you please lock this thread? It no longer serves the collecting community.

[earlywynnfan]

Sorry, came in late here. I think a better comparison would be Pedro and the cockfighting issue. Sure, Vick went farther, but Pedro willingly took part in a "sport" that most of America finds reprehensible, yet he was allowed to play again. Also, didn't Ray Lewis watch his buddies murder a man? Yet covered it up, kept his mouth shut, and let them get off??? Don't thousands root for him every weekend? Wasn't he on the cover of SI? I'll bet he has fans right here on the forum, but I've never seen any outrage.

I think he paid the time for the crime, which was actually longer than many who have murdered and raped. I think he should be allowed to try to find success in whatever career he chooses. If his singular talent was as a medical researcher or brain surgeon, he'd be back in his job as either. Vick's talent is football, so he should be allowed to play football.

Any team that wants to sign him will fully be aware of the negative impact that Vick would bring on a team's image and ticket sales, so I think the point of this is moot.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[sportscentury]

Joel
Could you please lock this thread? It no longer serves the collecting community.

Joel, come on... even you have to agree this is funny. ;)

[trsent]

Joel, come on... even you have to agree this is funny. ;)

You know - I do not understand. I make my views and people have to attack them time and time again instead of discussing the topic.

I can't lock the thread, I have no clue why it is in Auction Item Discussions to begin with.

[sportscentury]

You know - I do not understand. I make my views and people have to attack them time and time again instead of discussing the topic.

I can't lock the thread, I have no clue why it is in Auction Item Discussions to begin with.

Warren's not attacking you ... he's just teasing you. There are folks on here who seem to wait for you to post sp that they can attack you, but there are also times when you take things the wrong way. Warren is far from a GUU bully.

As for why this thread is in the Auction Item Discussion section, you'll have to ask Dirtyla2000 (good luck with that discussion!). Joel v. Dirtyla2000 ... I know we'd all tune in for that! :)

I recently made a post in the General Discussion section about why GUU still has the separate sections (General Discussion and Auction Item Discussion). It seems like GUUers post a lot of threads in the wrong section. This is a prime example. Not a big deal by any means - I just thought it might be better to combine them. (Not a single person responded to my thread, so I think I am alone on that one!)

[nyjetsfan14]

[quote=earlywynnfan;142109]Also, didn't Ray Lewis watch his buddies murder a man? Yet covered it up, kept his mouth shut, and let them get off??? Don't thousands root for him every weekend? Wasn't he on the cover of SI? I'll bet he has fans right here on the forum, but I've never seen any outrage.[quote]

This is a great point and something we've all seem to have forgotten about. We see Ray on magazines, on video game covers, on the NFL Network smoozed by the hosts, a celebrated player and celebrity yet nary a memory of a man having had his life taken in Lewis presence by Lewis associates.

[suicide_squeeze]

Sounds like a lot of people do not understand how the laws work in the United States of America.

Love it or Leave it but stop making your own rules because that is not how it works.

Or, vote for lawmakers who want an eye for an eye punishment system.

Good luck!


Oh, we understand how it works, Joel.

It works rather badly. That's why I say we go back to the old western days...

Don't make OUR own rules? What did big bad multi-millionaire Michael Vick do, Joel? Didn't he make HIS OWN RULES? Only problem is....he got arrested for it.

I read your posts, and I just don't understand why you have such contempt formorality. You are either hopelessly liberal to the farthest left anyone could possible be to a fault and then some, or you just enjoy starting arguments against all common sense for personal gratification and kicks.

Michael Vick is a punk. He deserves nothing, and like it.

[suicide_squeeze]

[quote=earlywynnfan;142109]Also, didn't Ray Lewis watch his buddies murder a man? Yet covered it up, kept his mouth shut, and let them get off??? Don't thousands root for him every weekend? Wasn't he on the cover of SI? I'll bet he has fans right here on the forum, but I've never seen any outrage.[quote]

This is a great point and something we've all seem to have forgotten about. We see Ray on magazines, on video game covers, on the NFL Network smoozed by the hosts, a celebrated player and celebrity yet nary a memory of a man having had his life taken in Lewis presence by Lewis associates.


I'm as disgusted by Ray as anyone. I loathe the dude's face every time I see it. He is a hienous criminal who escaped justice like O.J. did his first time around. Not to mention, I just don't like his personality and aggressive attitude in how he carries himself. So what, he's a football player. I know several people who have never thrown the "pigskin" around that could whoop his ass, so what difference does it make?

That said, the point you guys need to differentiate between Ray and Vick is that Ray was aquitted from the charges against him....Vick was found quilty.

Therefore, the stigma of what Vick did will never leave his side. Ray can claim he did nothing wrong, and has a juries decision to back it up.....right or wrong as it may be.

[chakes89]

Vick did his time. He paid his debt to society. But he was killing society.
Killing society?

Last time I checked, Dogs aren't people and shouldn't be treated like such

They are animals that can turn on you at any time with dangerous results

Vick was/is a victim of his environment but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been held accountable for what he did

I place more blame on his parents and the people that guided him throughout his life until now more than I blame Vick for what was done

[cordovacollector]

Just an outsider's viewpoint here. I started loathing Vikings football the year a few players at different times were charged with rape and got no punishment. At the time, Denny Green's response was something akin to "boys will be boys." Later similar charges were mentioned about him. Then there was the Love Boat scandal. Just to name a few local incidents.

I had said I would never go to a Viking's game as long as Green and R. Moss were around. They are both long gone and I still have no interest. (Moss hit a security/police official with his car, there was a joint in the ashtray - no charges. Yeah, Randy Moss 'I play when I want to play.' The guy that heads to the locker room with time on the clock. Who if the ball isn't going to be thrown to him, would take two steps and stop.) Doesn't even surprise me there are rumors for the Vikings taking Vick - even with Childress' public acclamations that criminal/bad conduct does not have a place with the Vikings any longer.

I know no sport is pure. But I'll "pass" on football.

[cordovacollector]

I place more blame on his parents and the people that guided him throughout his life until now more than I blame Vick for what was done

That's where I made my mistake. I got confused because I thought he was an adult not a child.

[suicide_squeeze]

Killing society?

Last time I checked, Dogs aren't people and shouldn't be treated like such

They are animals that can turn on you at any time with dangerous results

Vick was/is a victim of his environment but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been held accountable for what he did

I place more blame on his parents and the people that guided him throughout his life until now more than I blame Vick for what was done

chakes89......."was" was a typo....should have read "wasn't". After it was posted, I couldn't change it, and if you read the next line, I was hoping everyone could figure out what I meant to say.

[kingjammy24]

"Last time I checked, Dogs aren't people and shouldn't be treated like such"

and should therefore be killed for amusement? anyway, it's true that dogs aren't like people; unlike vick and many of his pals, i've yet to meet a dog who kills purely to entertain himself. seems even dogs have progressed beyond the sort of reprehensible behavior that still plagues some people.

given that dogs do everything from fight in wars, help the handicapped, keep the borders and airports safe, search for missing people, etc., they're as much a part of society as anyone else. should a dog ever rescue your life, be sure you remember he shouldn't be accorded the same respect as a person.

"They are animals that can turn on you at any time with dangerous results"

completely unlike people, right?



http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5569/silly.jpg

rudy.

[cordovacollector]

Rudy, you get a hug for that post!

[dirtyla2000]

Killing society?

Last time I checked, Dogs aren't people and shouldn't be treated like such

They are animals that can turn on you at any time with dangerous results

Vick was/is a victim of his environment but that doesn't mean he shouldn't have been held accountable for what he did

I place more blame on his parents and the people that guided him throughout his life until now more than I blame Vick for what was done
finally some common sense!

[dirtyla2000]

Warren's not attacking you ... he's just teasing you. There are folks on here who seem to wait for you to post sp that they can attack you, but there are also times when you take things the wrong way. Warren is far from a GUU bully.

As for why this thread is in the Auction Item Discussion section, you'll have to ask Dirtyla2000 (good luck with that discussion!). Joel v. Dirtyla2000 ... I know we'd all tune in for that! :)

I recently made a post in the General Discussion section about why GUU still has the separate sections (General Discussion and Auction Item Discussion). It seems like GUUers post a lot of threads in the wrong section. This is a prime example. Not a big deal by any means - I just thought it might be better to combine them. (Not a single person responded to my thread, so I think I am alone on that one!)
GO LICK YOUR DOG!!!!!!!1

[reed1216]

"That said, the point you guys need to differentiate between Ray and Vick is that Ray was aquitted from the charges against him....Vick was found quilty.

Therefore, the stigma of what Vick did will never leave his side. Ray can claim he did nothing wrong, and has a juries decision to back it up.....right or wrong as it may be."




Right or wrong as that may be???? I think we might be contradicting ourselves here. I thought we were discussing right versus wrong here. I love dogs, always have and always will. They are incredible creatures and are as loyal and loving as an animal could be. However, to suggest that Ray Lewis can defend himself on the basis of what a jury decided is missing the point. In fact, I would suggest that getting away with being an accomplice to murdering a human being is FAR worse than getting caught killing dogs. If anything, Vick should at least be given the benefit of the doubt over Ray Ray because he will have served his time before playing in the NFL.

If you truley believe that Lewis was innocent, then my argument doesn't hold any water. But if Ray did get away with being an accomplice to a murder, don't you think his penalty should have been more severe than what Vick got? Hell, Lewis got off without a slap on the wrist and there are people here defending him over Michael Vick. Absolutely ridiculous...

I fully expect a thread defending OJ because he was "acquitted" of murdering his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, because a jury said so. At least he had that going for him, prior to commiting armed robbery....

[sportscentury]

GO LICK YOUR DOG!!!!!!!1

Dirty/Perry - Chris Cavalier has already had to delete some of your unconscionable posts and attacks in this thread (not to mention your other beautiful and intelligent threads). Your insistence in behaving in this manner does nothing but expose to the GUU community your character and value. You seem to be completely incapable of contributing in a meaningful manner. Again, very sad.

[Mr.3000]

Dirty/Perry - Chris Cavalier has already had to delete some of your unconscionable posts and attacks in this thread (not to mention your other beautiful and intelligent threads). Your insistence in behaving in this manner does nothing but expose to the GUU community your character and value. You seem to be completely incapable of contributing in a meaningful manner. Again, very sad.


I'm sure I'm not the only member here that agrees with you.

[dirtyla2000]

Dirty/Perry - Chris Cavalier has already had to delete some of your unconscionable posts and attacks in this thread (not to mention your other beautiful and intelligent threads). Your insistence in behaving in this manner does nothing but expose to the GUU community your character and value. You seem to be completely incapable of contributing in a meaningful manner. Again, very sad.
funny how you threw the first insult and now go crying to adminesration!WAIT, I WILL GIVE YOU MY MOTHERS NO. YOU COULD CALL HER TOO! I started this thread and it was enjoyable untill it was hijacked by your insults and slammys!when you dont agree, dont degrade,it only exposes your ignorance and prejudice s!

[suicide_squeeze]

"That said, the point you guys need to differentiate between Ray and Vick is that Ray was aquitted from the charges against him....Vick was found quilty.

Therefore, the stigma of what Vick did will never leave his side. Ray can claim he did nothing wrong, and has a juries decision to back it up.....right or wrong as it may be."




Right or wrong as that may be???? I think we might be contradicting ourselves here. I thought we were discussing right versus wrong here. I love dogs, always have and always will. They are incredible creatures and are as loyal and loving as an animal could be. However, to suggest that Ray Lewis can defend himself on the basis of what a jury decided is missing the point. In fact, I would suggest that getting away with being an accomplice to murdering a human being is FAR worse than getting caught killing dogs. If anything, Vick should at least be given the benefit of the doubt over Ray Ray because he will have served his time before playing in the NFL.

If you truley believe that Lewis was innocent, then my argument doesn't hold any water. But if Ray did get away with being an accomplice to a murder, don't you think his penalty should have been more severe than what Vick got? Hell, Lewis got off without a slap on the wrist and there are people here defending him over Michael Vick. Absolutely ridiculous...

I fully expect a thread defending OJ because he was "acquitted" of murdering his ex-wife and Ron Goldman, because a jury said so. At least he had that going for him, prior to commiting armed robbery....


Reed,

What exactly are you trying to say here? Because I don't understand who you singing to.

You have taken three sentences out of what I posted, and you seem to be arguing with.........well, yourself?

I think Ray is a piece of garbage, and I stated so. I also stated that he "got off" of some extremely serious charges. I personally believe that was wrong, but AI wasn't a member of the jury, and didn't witness, hear, or participate in the deliberations. All I can tell you is to me, Ray is garbage.

Vick was accused, and found guilty. Probably because there was so much freaking evidence all over the place, not to mention his friends who "roilled over" on him and told ALL.....he is a convicted felon now. Do I think any more or less of him vs. Ray? DID you READ MT POSTS?

What is your POINT here in quoting three sentences of mine? Are you in some twisted way trying to substantiate anything dirtyla200 is punching out on a keyboard? If so, maybe you should seek some professional help. But don't take what I said out of context, and twist it into some silly misunderstanding on your part.

No, dogs aren't human beings and they shouldn't be treated as such.

They should be treated with MORE respect than humans show one another, because they aren't up to the task of running the world, and the crappy little things that humans do in it.

I have been holding back, and have tried to keep it easy on the administrtors here. What kind of a fool would I look like if I just came out and said "They should SHOOT Vick the F%&K for what he did, to insure he won't continue to do it anymore"? Yeah, I'm sure Chris and Eric would love to come accross that. So I did it in a much more suttle way.

If anybody reading this post thinks dogs don't deserve the best treatment in the world, as ALL OTHER PETS DO who depend on us to live their sweet little lives, then don't cross MY path, because I'd just as soon WASTE YOU than say "Hi".

I hope that's clear enough.

[suicide_squeeze]

Dirty/Perry - Chris Cavalier has already had to delete some of your unconscionable posts and attacks in this thread (not to mention your other beautiful and intelligent threads). Your insistence in behaving in this manner does nothing but expose to the GUU community your character and value. You seem to be completely incapable of contributing in a meaningful manner. Again, very sad.

AMEN, brother!

I mean, is this guy kidding with these posts or what?

[suicide_squeeze]

God Bless it......I have to work on my typos......it's rediculous already:o

[reed1216]

suicide_squeeze- First, I want to apologize if you misinterpreted my post as an attack on you. However, to suggest that I am arguing with myself is kind of silly...

I think what I am hearing you say is that dogs should be treated better than human beings because we're capable of doing so. If I'm misinterpreting this, please correct me. If I have it right, I totally disagree. I love dogs, but to say they should be treated better than people treat one another is an interesting statement. I like to think I treat everyone with decency and respect. Maybe, as a community, we should work harder on treating one another better and let the dogs follow...

The reason I quoted a portion of your post is because I disagree with THAT portion of your post. I think we can agree to disagree without suggesting I need professional help. Is that too much to ask?

As for dirtyla and you comparing his statements to mine... I think the only area of agreement I have with him is that we both believe Vick deserves another chance. I don't support the way he (or you for that matter) have been throwing your opinions around, while at the same time ridiculing others who might dare to disagree with you.

I think that we do agree that dogs and all pets deserve to be taken care of properly and given the love they need to be happy animals. I'd just like to think we could have a discussion without getting personal. While I might think some of your views are askew, I imagine others feel the same way with mine. That's okay with me. I'd rather approach those people, say hello and discuss the matter with them, than "WASTE" them.

Have a wonderful holiday weekend...

[chakes89]

"Last time I checked, Dogs aren't people and shouldn't be treated like such"

and should therefore be killed for amusement? anyway, it's true that dogs aren't like people; unlike vick and many of his pals, i've yet to meet a dog who kills purely to entertain himself. seems even dogs have progressed beyond the sort of reprehensible behavior that still plagues some people.

given that dogs do everything from fight in wars, help the handicapped, keep the borders and airports safe, search for missing people, etc., they're as much a part of society as anyone else. should a dog ever rescue your life, be sure you remember he shouldn't be accorded the same respect as a person.

"They are animals that can turn on you at any time with dangerous results"

completely unlike people, right?



http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5569/silly.jpg

rudy.
Who else thought I was talking about these types of dogs?

Nobody?

Thought so

[suicide_squeeze]

suicide_squeeze- First, I want to apologize if you misinterpreted my post as an attack on you. However, to suggest that I am arguing with myself is kind of silly...

I think what I am hearing you say is that dogs should be treated better than human beings because we're capable of doing so. If I'm misinterpreting this, please correct me. If I have it right, I totally disagree. I love dogs, but to say they should be treated better than people treat one another is an interesting statement. I like to think I treat everyone with decency and respect. Maybe, as a community, we should work harder on treating one another better and let the dogs follow...

The reason I quoted a portion of your post is because I disagree with THAT portion of your post. I think we can agree to disagree without suggesting I need professional help. Is that too much to ask?

As for dirtyla and you comparing his statements to mine... I think the only area of agreement I have with him is that we both believe Vick deserves another chance. I don't support the way he (or you for that matter) have been throwing your opinions around, while at the same time ridiculing others who might dare to disagree with you.

I think that we do agree that dogs and all pets deserve to be taken care of properly and given the love they need to be happy animals. I'd just like to think we could have a discussion without getting personal. While I might think some of your views are askew, I imagine others feel the same way with mine. That's okay with me. I'd rather approach those people, say hello and discuss the matter with them, than "WASTE" them.

Have a wonderful holiday weekend...

reed1216,

Thanks for the apology, and accept mine too.

Like I have said many times here before, I am not here to make enemies.

I do, however, become baffled when members misconstru comments and/or twist them into meaning not intended.

I am from the common sense school. Like rudy (jingjammy) stated in an earlier post here, dogs do not go around murdering other animals for their own enjoyment. What more needs to be said about thta statement. I am saying that "dog nature" apparently is better than "human nature". When you stoip and break it all down, how can anyone, let alone you reed, argue this fact?

Look at our politicians who womanize while trying to be elected to office?
Look at the same who do it WHILE IN OFFICE.

Look at the Pastors and Fathers of the so-called Holy religions who molest.

Look at the murderers....the rapists....the wife and child beaters and lolestors....the repeat drunk drivers who kill. Hell, do I go ON?

What about the kidnappers who destroy everything sacred in a family by stealing their babies to sell them overseas as slaves and sex servants? Or the sexual preditors you see on NightLine going after whom they believe are underaged children.


Then, I get on here, and see someone suggesting that a guy who tortures dogs by allowing them no other existence but to get thrown into a pit for a fight-to-the-death......deserves another chance? REALLY?

Yes, we all have our own opinions, and I truly feel I am like the most that know what the difference between right and wrong, and what the true value of "rehabilitation" is. And I would say that I too, reed1216, like a good hearty discussion without attacks. So please, know that I am with you on all counts.

But please don't try to tell me about how rediculous it sounds to want to treat a pet (dog, in our discussion) with more passion than we show ourselves as fellow human beings.

The only time you come accross a dog who is of ill-mannered behavior will be largely for two reasons: If it is sick; If it has been mistreated. Domestic animals have good nature naturally. Therefore they should be treated with care, love, and compassion.

Apparently, many many humans do not. That's all I am saying. And I for one don't care to show much compassion, faith, or otherwise, to the bad charactered a-holes of the world.....especially the privilaged ones who should know better. Some humans, reed, just deserve nothing but a burial.

[aeneas01]

Vick knowingly committed and crime and went to prison as he should have. Too many kids idolize football players and prison. The 2 should never meet. Vick should be banished from the NFL to set an example for everyone.

frankly, i thought an excellent example was already made of vick and a resounding message sent: if you break the law, you can and will go to prison, you can and will do time - regardless of your wealth, fame, popularity or profession. in fact i think the message was not only powerful but also far-reaching, especially where kids are concerned.

re: does vick deserve a second chance to play pro football? imo, sure he does. but what makes this question intriguing is the amount of money vick stands to earn should he get a second chance. i mean would we be having this discussion if the guy happened to stock shelves at walmart for a living? would anyone care in the least if a walmart in buffalo hired him back after he completed his stretch? i doubt it. he would be just another ex-con trying to get on with his life.

but the fact that vick stands to earn millions should he get another chance to play pro ball throws a wrench into the conversation - a thug commits a despicable crime yet at the end of the day emerges smelling like roses and is financially set for life. tough to swallow, doesn't square, justice doesn't seem to prevail. the nfl and/or nfl franchises will ultimately determine vick's fate and that's fine with me, regardless of what road they take. if vick is allowed to play, i will not boycott pro football - thugs will continue to make up a percentage of nfl players with or without vick, something i've grudgingly learned to accept. if vick is not allowed to play, i won't pop the champagne - i'll just chalk it up as yet another sad nfl story of wasted opportunity and talent.

as far as dog fighting is concerned, like most here i find it despicable and reprehensible. and criminal. nonetheless i can't dismiss those that engage in it as depraved, psychotic, future serial killers, etc... the sad and bleak reality is this world, this country even, has simply not progressed morally or culturally at the same pace. i lived outside of the u.s. for over a decade and the abhorrent treatment of animals i witnessed first hand was not the exception, but the rule. and it wasn't at the hands of the criminally insane that these animals suffered.

when i was 12-years-old, living in mexico city, i attended a bullfight. the packed arena filled with the well-heeled and the barefoot did not prepare me for what i saw. an utterly gruesome spectacle that redefined animal torture. before the matador even began, the picadores, on horseback, went to work on the bull's neck with heavy steel spears - the object was to weaken the bull's neck muscles to the point where it could no longer thrust its head/horns effectively. next up, for good measure, entered the bandilleros whose job it was to stab and secure heavy barbed steel posts in the bull's exposed neck muscles. these heavy posts served as perpetual weight that continued to pull at the bull's neck muscles throughout the ordeal, further weakening the bull, its capacity to swing its head, causing intentional albeit controlled loss of blood. all to the utter delight of tens of thousands cheering fans. then and only then did the matodor show his face. to finally slay the bull with a sword. the grand finale? the bloodied and murdered bull was dragged around the arena by horseback rider, and the matador re-entered the ring with the bull's freshly severed ears and tail which he raised to the delirious and adoring crowd. the spectacle is then repeated all over again with a new bull. a spectacle that's alive and well in mexico, spain, france, to name a few.

i'm a dog guy. my dogs have not been pets, they've been important family members. what vick was involved with was horrific. but imo it was an act of a culturally and morally stunted man, an uneducated man, not an act of a depraved sociopath or the criminally insane. he was found guilty and did his time. jmo.

...

[reed1216]

suicide_squeeze- I really appreciate your response to my post. While I disagree with your opinion on some of the things you mention, I think it's appropriate to agree to disagree without any hard feelings.

aeneas01- I couldn't agree more with what you have written. That was a VERY well written post!

[kingjammy24]

robert,

re: vick making millions after-the-fact
i agree. it's also the ease of his re-integration into his old life as compared to other felons. it seems he's going to have a much easier time of it than anyone else with a a felony and jail time on their record would. chalk it up to the lax moral standards of the NFL.

re: the "culture" argument.
i've never bought it in any capacity in this case. unlike bullfighting in spain, dogfighting isn't part of the accepted culture of the south. the laws of a region reflect the majority of the cultural values of people who live in that region. the state of virginia, as well as many other southern states, has made dogfighting a felony. virginia has declared it a misdemeanor to even be a spectator at a dogfight. unlike the bullfights you saw robert, this wasn't an entire region going to some sanctioned public spectacle. it was a clandestine group of thugs holding fights in secret because they knew they were breaking the law. hardly qualifies as a "cultural event" in the vein of a bullfight in mexico. by making it illegal, the good people of the state of virginia have explicitly and publically declared they don't want dogfighting to be a part of their culture.

beyond that, there've been morally reprehensible cultures/subcultures before and playing the culture card hasn't absolved them from being regarded as demented sociopaths. lynchings were a part of southern culture in the early 1900s. were the folks who participated in those depraved lunatics or just some guys trying to hold up their culture? it's little more than a glorified "if everyone's jumping off the bridge then i should do it too" mindset. could millions of mexicans be wrong? millions of germans were so it's certainly possible. a man ought to be able to think for himself even if everyone around him has lost their mind.

where would the cultural excuses stop? anything could be viewed as a type of culture that one could grow up around. noone would be a sociopath, they'd all just be participating in their "culture". even the manson girls could've pointed to some sort of subculture. hardly means they weren't completely demented.

point blank, if a person relishes watching innocent animals being tortured and then personally kills those that "under-perform", there is no culture card that can possibly absolve them from being a sick and twisted person. saying "but i'm from the south!" doesn't negate the expectation of being a decent human being.

chakes: didn't realize you had broken it down via "types" of dogs. my mistake. not sure what types of dogs aren't an integral part of human society and as such don't deserve the same respect. i'll assume you were clearly referring to hyenas or maybe dingos.

rudy.

[dirtyla2000]

robert,

re: vick making millions after-the-fact
i agree. it's also the ease of his re-integration into his old life as compared to other felons. it seems he's going to have a much easier time of it than anyone else with a a felony and jail time on their record would. chalk it up to the lax moral standards of the NFL.

re: the "culture" argument.
i've never bought it in any capacity in this case. unlike bullfighting in spain, dogfighting isn't part of the accepted culture of the south. the laws of a region reflect the majority of the cultural values of people who live in that region. the state of virginia, as well as many other southern states, has made dogfighting a felony. virginia has declared it a misdemeanor to even be a spectator at a dogfight. unlike the bullfights you saw robert, this wasn't an entire region going to some sanctioned public spectacle. it was a clandestine group of thugs holding fights in secret because they knew they were breaking the law. hardly qualifies as a "cultural event" in the vein of a bullfight in mexico. by making it illegal, the good people of the state of virginia have explicitly and publically declared they don't want dogfighting to be a part of their culture.

beyond that, there've been morally reprehensible cultures/subcultures before and playing the culture card hasn't absolved them from being regarded as demented sociopaths. lynchings were a part of southern culture in the early 1900s. were the folks who participated in those depraved lunatics or just some guys trying to hold up their culture? it's little more than a glorified "if everyone's jumping off the bridge then i should do it too" mindset. could millions of mexicans be wrong? millions of germans were so it's certainly possible. a man ought to be able to think for himself even if everyone around him has lost their mind.

where would the cultural excuses stop? anything could be viewed as a type of culture that one could grow up around. noone would be a sociopath, they'd all just be participating in their "culture". even the manson girls could've pointed to some sort of subculture. hardly means they weren't completely demented.

point blank, if a person relishes watching innocent animals being tortured and then personally kills those that "under-perform", there is no culture card that can possibly absolve them from being a sick and twisted person. saying "but i'm from the south!" doesn't negate the expectation of being a decent human being.

chakes: didn't realize you had broken it down via "types" of dogs. my mistake. not sure what types of dogs aren't an integral part of human society and as such don't deserve the same respect. i'll assume you were clearly referring to hyenas or maybe dingos.

rudy.
using the holocaust as an example to make your dogs are priceless point!this thread was about second chances not your trivilizations of historic tragedies!

[Vintagedeputy]

I can't decide which I enjoy more:

the posted topic and the ensuing debates or the idiotic responses and personal attacks. Both are entertaining in a "can't look away from the train wreck" sort of way.

[suicide_squeeze]

aeneas01,

Nice posting. Sad story. You hit a cord in me with it. I remember watching a bull fight or two on TV when I was about the same age as when you were subjected to that cultural sleighing.

To this day, I guess it's the "cultural difference" in me that feels an uncontrollable amount of joy when I read or hear that a bull in a bull fight gored the fighter. I instantly think how I'd like to hear the horn went all the way through, and one of his major organs would be speared out on the end of it for all to see.

But that's just hoping against hope. Not because it wouldn't happen, but because I understand there is nothing that will change the very point you so poignantly expressed, that being there are deeply rooted differences from one culture to another.

But here in the great U.S. of A., we have a bunch of different cultures that must live by the law of the land. Seeing someone partake in such sick and immoral practices take a heavy toll on one's "rep". Vick is in for a tough climb. I don't know if he's up for it.

And the point you make about the money IS the rub. It's disgusting to see someone who was so privilaged and talented to snub his nose at our laws, at the decency of treating defenseless animals so horribly, to display such horrific character.....and then to hear fans of the sport of football just blurt out "He's done his time, doesn't he deserve a second chance!??"

Culturally speaking.....it's one thing to bet on your baseball team and pay the ultimate price in your sport when you were one of the all-time greats in it.....it's a whole other when you find NO VALUE in living creatures we share our lives with, and destroy them for sport.

It's just another sad day in the world when we as a global culture can't see that, and instead feel the need to publicly express our views that "the guy did his time, so he deserves another chance". OK, whatever....I too won't lose any sleep over the outcome. But I will always be outraged for what Vick did.

[Mr.3000]

I can't decide which I enjoy more:

the posted topic and the ensuing debates or the idiotic responses and personal attacks. Both are entertaining in a "can't look away from the train wreck" sort of way.

Indeed.

[aeneas01]

re: vick making millions after-the-fact i agree. it's also the ease of his re-integration into his old life as compared to other felons. it seems he's going to have a much easier time of it than anyone else with a a felony and jail time on their record would. chalk it up to the lax moral standards of the NFL.

i'm not sure how offering another chance to an ex-con equates to lax moral standards. isn't it more a reflection of the league's willingness to allow some of these guys a shot at turning their lives around, a stab at a mutually beneficial proposition? some guys are beyond redemption, some aren't. and, yes, it seems almost certain vick will have a much easier go of it when it comes to settling back into his life when compared to other ex-felons. but let's face it, vick isn't your average ex-con. nor is he your average joe. he's a guy that may still possess a very rare skill that it's in very high demand. and whether we like it or not, that will always open doors.


re: the "culture" argument. i've never bought it in any capacity in this case. unlike bullfighting in spain, dogfighting isn't part of the accepted culture of the south. the laws of a region reflect the majority of the cultural values of people who live in that region. the state of virginia, as well as many other southern states, has made dogfighting a felony. virginia has declared it a misdemeanor to even be a spectator at a dogfight. unlike the bullfights you saw robert, this wasn't an entire region going to some sanctioned public spectacle. it was a clandestine group of thugs holding fights in secret because they knew they were breaking the law. hardly qualifies as a "cultural event" in the vein of a bullfight in mexico. by making it illegal, the good people of the state of virginia have explicitly and publically declared they don't want dogfighting to be a part of their culture.

dog fighting wasn't a felony in virginia prior to this millenium rolling around nor was it a felony in wyoming or idaho as of 2007. in fact most states didn't get around to getting tough on dog fighting until the 1980s. even the feds didn't get very involved, didn't really put their foot down, until very recently. add to this, attending a dog fight is currently nothing more than a misdemeanor in over half the states in this country.

today anyone in this country can plop down cash, charter a boat, and set out to land a blue marlin. once this magnificent fish is hooked, the fun really begins because you then get to drag it around for hours while it violently struggles for its life, feeling every spasm and desperate lurch through your 130lb amilon line. then comes the gaffing and baseball bat. the fish turns black, the spectacular rainbow colors disappear, because the circulating blood responsible for those colors has stopped.

today anyone can don a 10 gallon hat and mosey on down to their local rodeo scene. they can cheer with glee along with thousands of others as a young calf is clotheslined off it's feet while running at breakneck speed, noosed and hog-tied. then comes the steer tripping, horns roped as the steer is in full sprint, head snapped back and pulled in another direction to cause the steer to trip and fall hard, to stun, then dragged by its head, to further stun, so that it can be hog-tied. and of course there's always the relentless and severe spurring of bronco horses and the electrical prods.

today anyone can take a drive down to their local walmart and pick up a compound bow. anyone. not just expert archers (as if an expert archer would purchase his bow at walmart!). anyone. and off to the woods they go. to miss the kill shot and have their quarry disappear and slowly bleed to death.

my point is indifference to animal cruelty and suffering, especially in the name of "sport", is nothing new - it's always been a part of the american landscape, part of the american culture. and such barbarism doesn't have to be accepted by the majority to qualify as a cultural phenomena. nor does it even have to be legal.

as i mentioned before, i'm with you when it comes to how i feel about dog fighting. what vick engaged in was reprehensible. but let's be clear. vick didn't go down to the local pound, adopt a slew of dogs, only to douse them in gasoline and set them on fire for his own perverted, twisted, psychotic amusement. vick chose to engage in a brand of animal cruelty that's been around forever, a blood sport, which at the moment also happens to be big in the urban gangster culture. just as packing a gun. thuggery. not twisted criminal insanity imo.


where would the cultural excuses stop? anything could be viewed as a type of culture that one could grow up around. noone would be a sociopath, they'd all just be participating in their "culture". even the manson girls could've pointed to some sort of subculture. hardly means they weren't completely demented.

first, i don't think anyone is pointing to a cultural influence as an excuse. i know i'm not. a symptom yes, an excuse no. i think it's pretty clear that vick, like a lot of young black athletes, is all about the gangster image, the gangster culture. as far as charlie's girls are concerned, i'm not sure there's ever been a sharon tate style murder movement, or culture, that one could point to. do you?


point blank, if a person relishes watching innocent animals being tortured and then personally kills those that "under-perform", there is no culture card that can possibly absolve them from being a sick and twisted person. saying "but i'm from the south!" doesn't negate the expectation of being a decent human being.

when i was a stupid college freshman i decided to go hare shooting with a group of guys that lived in my dorm, guys that grew up with guns, that grew up hunting. i was given a twelve gauge shotgun, the same as what the other guys were armed with, and we were off. up to that point i had shot a bb gun a few times, and a rifle once - i didn't grow up in a hunting family and never had any interest in it whatsoever. but for whatever reason it sounded like a good idea at the time. at dusk the hares, considered varmint, popped out of their holes and were everywhere. it was quite an amazing site, i mean they were absolutely everywhere. knowing that i was new to this, a couple of the guys played instructor and i was ready to go. i hit a hare with my first shot and two of it's legs disappeared. but it was still alive and struggled to escape. but the best it could manage was run in a small circle. and scream. the group of guys i was with thought it was the funniest thing they had ever seen, and they laughed hysterically as the hare squealed in pain. i threw up. and have never touched a gun since.

through the years i've met many, many guys like them, guys that grew up with guns, grew up shooting animals for sport, that had zero, and i mean zero, remorse about doing it. i didn't then, nor do i now, consider them sick and/or twisted. imo they were simply products of a hunting culture that i will never understand.

...

[sportscentury]

I can't decide which I enjoy more:

the posted topic and the ensuing debates or the idiotic responses and personal attacks. Both are entertaining in a "can't look away from the train wreck" sort of way.

Not to me. The idiocy and visciousness has seriously detracted from this thread's value. I'm of the mindset that GUU would be better off without certain individuals.

[nyjetsfan14]

imo they were simply products of a hunting culture that i will never understand.

Perhaps a US history class or two might clear things up? I know it is difficult for us internet surfers, Direct TV watchers, and cell phone users to fathom, but there hasn't always been a McDonald's or KFC on every American street corner. 10 gallon hat? I guess that's the only community we're allowed to stereotype anymore and still be PC.

I am not a hunter but I do on occasion fish with my son and - GASP - we sometimes use worms as bait! Don't worry, we rarely if ever catch any fish. Many/most hunters I have known have a high level of respect for animals and nature and hunting organizations do much for conservation. What's more cruel: hunting a deer or putting a Starbucks where a deer family once lived? Making an analogy between what Vick did and a person who enjoys hunting I feel is irresponsible.

Vick made a mistake. We all make mistakes. Hopefully we don't make them in such a way as to harm others but it does happen. Vick did his time and we can only hope he has grown and learned from the punishment, he deserves the right to prove that. Otherwise what is the point of our system?

[Danny899]

Not to me. The idiocy and visciousness has seriously detracted from this thread's value. I'm of the mindset that GUU would be better off without certain individuals.

Reid, you and Vintage are both correct. The "certain individuals" you refer to who feel it necessary to post aimlessly on nearly every topic and manage to bring it down into the gutter with personal attacks? Even though they're clueless? You would swear they never leave their pc's. Until the moderators and administrators begin to take enforcement action, other than merely deleting these ignorant posts, the madness will continue. You learn how to navigate around it after awhile.

[sportscentury]

Reid, you and Vintage are both correct. The "certain individuals" you refer to who feel it necessary to post aimlessly on nearly every topic and manage to bring it down into the gutter with personal attacks? Even though they're clueless? You would swear they never leave their pc's. Until the moderators and administrators begin to take enforcement action, other than merely deleting these ignorant posts, the madness will continue. You learn how to navigate around it after awhile.

Actually, Dan, I think you nailed it (see section in bold). If folks were better at navigating around it (myself included), I think it would quickly become less of a problem.

Just to be clear, I was not specifically refering to Joel/Trsent in my post. I know he is not a tremendously popular fellow here on GUU, but I do appreciate his posts that inform members of behind-the-scenes ongoings in the hobby. He does know quite a bit, but I think his good info gets lost in his posting style (and also the fact that he responds too much to those who bait him, which I realize is hard to resist doing). Just wanted to make this clear as Joel has not posted the last couple of days and I don't want anyone to think that my post was directed at him.

Thanks for your post, Dan. I'm glad to see you posting on GUU more regularly.

.

[aeneas01]

Perhaps a US history class or two might clear things up?

if you are aware of a u.s. history lesson that might help me better understand the type of "sport" hunting i specifically mentioned (blasting varmint with shotguns for the pure fun of it, bashing the brains out of a 20-year-old marlin with a baseball bat, amateurs boning up on archery skills with live game), please point the way. if your intended point was to make it clear that there are experienced and responsible hunters in this country that are sensitive to animal suffering, i'm pretty sure most realize this. i know i do - and that's why i didn't refer to such hunters in my post.


Making an analogy between what Vick did and a person who enjoys hunting I feel is irresponsible.

is that really what you took from my post? that i've stated there's no difference between what vick was convicted of and responsible hunting?


I know it is difficult for us internet surfers, Direct TV watchers, and cell phone users to fathom, but there hasn't always been a McDonald's or KFC on every American street corner. 10 gallon hat? I guess that's the only community we're allowed to stereotype anymore and still be PC.

seems that you're trying to defend what you believe was a gross stereotype with one of your own (mind numb electronic agers dependent on the convenience of fast food). the thing is, mentioning a "10 gallon hat" in the context of rodeo attendees isn't a gross or hurtful stereotype as far as i know...


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/pc01.jpg
...

[suicide_squeeze]

Reid, you and Vintage are both correct. The "certain individuals" you refer to who feel it necessary to post aimlessly on nearly every topic and manage to bring it down into the gutter with personal attacks? Even though they're clueless? You would swear they never leave their pc's. Until the moderators and administrators begin to take enforcement action, other than merely deleting these ignorant posts, the madness will continue. You learn how to navigate around it after awhile.


Danny899.

You never cease to amaze me.

You post with such conviction. Yet you don't even follows your own standards.

First highlighted comment above.....who's clueless? Isn't that a personal attack, although not directed at anyone singularly....but I suppose that's only because you aren't man enough to call out who you accuse of your complaints. Not a "bait" comment, just a fact.

Second highlighted comment above.....I see you haven't learned to "navigate" around these so-called "ignorant posts" (your own words) because here you are, aimlessly posting to "bring it down in the gutter".

There is nothing ignorant about this thread....minus a few poorly stated posts. But doesn't that happen in every thread? Must we throw the baby out with the bath water just because YOU don't like some of the posts?

I think there have been some very articulate points made on this thread, and some worthwhile discussions.....food for thought, if you will, that some members have given others to think about. What's wrong with that?

Yes, it was started in the wrong category, yes, it's an "OT" subject, but don't rain on others parade if you just want to get on the thread to be critical. If you have something to "add" to the discussion, then type away. If you just want to come on to start arguments, you are becoming one of the problem children you are referring to in your generalizations.

[dirtyla2000]

I hate to say I was right,DANTE STALLWORTH will get 30 days for taking a HUMAN LIFE while drunk driving! Vick got 2 years for killing dogs! IS THAT JUSTICE!

[suicide_squeeze]

I hate to say I was right,DANTE STALLWORTH will get 30 days for taking a HUMAN LIFE while drunk driving! Vick got 2 years for killing dogs! IS THAT JUSTICE!


One was premeditated. With planning, funding, efforts to conceal, etc.

The other was an accident............if you can consider driving drunk an accident.

In any case, it very well may be that neither of these guys ever play professional football again. We'll see I guess.

[dirtyla2000]

One was premeditated. With planning, funding, efforts to conceal, etc.

The other was an accident............if you can consider driving drunk an accident.

In any case, it very well may be that neither of these guys ever play professional football again. We'll see I guess.

No you must not call drunk driving an accident,you obviously have never lost a loved one to a drunk! A dogs life a couple of hundred bucks, human ,priceless,or should i say 28 days!

[both-teams-played-hard]

A dogs life a couple of hundred bucks, human ,priceless,or should i say 28 days!
No matter what you say...the Expos ain't coming back.

[dirtyla2000]

No matter what you say...the Expos ain't coming back.
at least I get to see the Nats going to hell, PRICELESS!

[Vintagedeputy]

at least I get to see the Nats going to hell, PRICELESS!

You must lead a very pleasant and fulfilling life.

[anzyyy]

i think definitely yes..they deserve a second chance....:D

[Mr.3000]

Vick should be banned from the NFL and be ALLOWED to work a 9-5 every day the rest of his life.


Stallworth should be in prison for the next 10-15 years for vehicular manslaughter, while under the influence.


30 days for Stallworth? What a friggin' joke!

[Mr.3000]

Vick should be banned from the NFL and be ALLOWED to work a 9-5 every day the rest of his life.


Stallworth should be in prison for the next 10-15 years for vehicular manslaughter, while under the influence.


30 days for Stallworth? What a friggin' joke!



Here's a nifty little link to look at.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_homicide

[dirtyla2000]

You must lead a very pleasant and fulfilling life.
make 240,000 clear married 18 years, 2 teen aged boys and i am 42.ya pretty fulfilled! YOU?

[Mr.3000]

make 240,000 clear married 18 years, 2 teen aged boys and i am 42.ya pretty fulfilled! YOU?

LOL seriously, while I appreciate the good laugh you provide, please stop. You're just clowning yourself. Please stop while you're ahead.

[dirtyla2000]

[quote=Mr.3000;148803]LOL seriously, while I appreciate the good laugh you provide, please stop. You're just clowning yourself. Please stop while you're ahead.[/quoteI also have a bachelor in eng. lit. CLOWNING YOURSELF, please stop your assault on the english language.I guess you hear those phrases at your BURGER KING JOB. please dont hate the player, hate the game!

[Mr.3000]

[quote=Mr.3000;148803]LOL seriously, while I appreciate the good laugh you provide, please stop. You're just clowning yourself. Please stop while you're ahead.[/quoteI also have a bachelor in eng. lit. CLOWNING YOURSELF, please stop your assault on the english language.I guess you hear those phrases at your BURGER KING JOB. please dont hate the player, hate the game!

LOL ... Let me guess, you bench 350lbs too, right? You're funny kid.

[both-teams-played-hard]

I also have a bachelor's degree in English literature. Clowning yourself? Please stop your assault on the English language. I guess you hear those phrases at your Burger King job. Please, don't hate the player, hate the game!
-1

[kingjammy24]

"..make 240,000 clear married 18 years, 2 teen aged boys and i am 42..I also have a bachelor in eng. lit.."

elmer, don't forget to tell them about the mansion and the yacht!

http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/5892/sillyj.jpg

rudy.

[dirtyla2000]

no,Im actually an out of shape 5 foot 8, 220. can t bench press much!

[dirtyla2000]

stop posting pictures of your woman!

[both-teams-played-hard]

stop posting pictures of your woman!

Can we please euthanize this thread and put it to sleep with dignity?

[cohibasmoker]

So, Rush Limbaugh has been denied the right to be a partner in the purchase of a NFL team. Seems the NFL doesn't have a problem and is willing to give criminals a second chance - they only have a problem with person (s) who have "opposing" political views.

There are those who say this thread is of a political nature and as such, my comments don't have a place on a "sports" related forum. I say Politics DO have a place in sports and it is evident by the decision of the NFL and Mr. zero tolerance himself - Roger Goddell.

Jim

[sox83cubs84]

Agreed, Jim...that's why any NFL memorabilia, game-used, and collectibles I own are now either being sold, given away or tossed in the trash. I had Bears-Packers tickets for here later in the year...I sold 'em, as I refuse to attend another NFL game because of this situation.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[BorchertField]

So, Rush Limbaugh has been denied the right to be a partner in the purchase of a NFL team. Seems the NFL doesn't have a problem and is willing to give criminals a second chance - they only have a problem with person (s) who have "opposing" political views.

There are those who say this thread is of a political nature and as such, my comments don't have a place on a "sports" related forum. I say Politics DO have a place in sports and it is evident by the decision of the NFL and Mr. zero tolerance himself - Roger Goddell.

Jim
Nonsense.

Rush wasn't excluded because of his political beliefs - conservatives make up most of the NFL's current ownership - but because his job requires him to be provocative and controversial. Not exactly what the image-conscious NFL wants in a minority partner.

All the posturing from Rush and his defenders is just that.

[STLHAMMER32]

Most people spoke out about racist comments that he supposedly made...that is why figures like Al sharpton led protests against him being a part owner. If he was simply considered a procative radio talk show host it would not have mattered. He is not a racist, anyone black or white that are his close friends will speak to that. It's a shame how hypocritical the NFL is in many aspects not just this situation.

[sox83cubs84]

OOOO-K...so I guess there's no controversy in having players in your league that have killed people by DUI, been accesories to murder, took part in a dogfighting ring, carried concealed weapons illegally, and caused disruptions at nightspots.

The second chances for Vick, Little, Lewis are only an issue because Limbaugh didn't even get a FIRST chance? I wonder if the NFL would have acted similarly if Michael Moore, Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson or George Soros wanted to buy a piece of a team? As it happens, there have been unconfirmed reports that Soros is part of the same bid Rush was chased out of...if Rush should be denied, then so should Soros (if this is true)...otherwise, the NFL is just another member of the legion of organizations that have discriminated against and demonized conservatives since January 20, 2009.

Dave M.
Chicago area

[both-teams-played-hard]

The NFL uses a collective bargaining agreement. By definition, this agreement is socialism. I hate socialism! It is ruining this great country that Ronald Reagan worked so hard to found.
I am boycotting all NFL games played in Los Angeles this season for this reason.
Anyone who gets a government hand-out (unemployment or disability check or food stamps) is a dirty socialist.
Jesus H. Christ is a true conservative.
Does everyone want to hear my thought on politics and religion?
I didn't think you did...

[cohibasmoker]

Nonsense.

Rush wasn't excluded because of his political beliefs - conservatives make up most of the NFL's current ownership - but because his job requires him to be provocative and controversial. Not exactly what the image-conscious NFL wants in a minority partner.

All the posturing from Rush and his defenders is just that.

Really? Check out some of the lyrics of singer, song-writer "Fergie". She is a partner with the Miami Dolphins. I guess her hip-hop lyrics is just what the image-conscious NFL wants in a minority owner.

Jim

[kingjammy24]

just before last year's all-star break, a MA state trooper confiscated a vial of steroids from nicholas cyr, a red sox security staffer. cyr said he got them from jared remy, another red sox security staffer. both men, who earned about $11/hr were fired. "Remy said he learned that he had been named as the source of Cyr’s steroids from Mike Dee, then the Red Sox chief operating officer. “[Dee] basically told me the Red Sox have a no-steroids policy,’’ Remy said. “If your name’s even mentioned, you’re going to get fired.’’

on july 30, 2009, david ortiz was revealed by the NYT as having tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003; an offence that ortiz earlier said should lead to a ban "..for the whole year". i don't recall ortiz ever been disciplined or punished by the red sox or major league baseball.

it's easy to talk about the importance of image and discipline when referring to a bunch of easily-replaceable $11/hr employees. apparently if you can put runs on the board and generate significant money for the team and league, discipline and image aren't so important anymore. vick was given a second chance because the NFL believed he could generate more money. if some $11/hr NFL employee had been convicted of the same thing, could they get a second chance? could they get a meeting with goodell and be reinstated? obviously not. the NFL would fire them and that'd be the end of it.

that said, it's no different in the "real world". CEOs and execs get away with things that would get junior staffers fired in a heartbeat. basic law of supply and demand. if you're in short supply and hard to replace, you can behave with impunity. the NFL is no different than any other business in that respect. i'd think hollywood is even more egregious in this area as you can apparently drug and rape a 13 yr old girl and the industry will instead focus on what a great director you are and will be more than happy to continue working with you.

rudy.

[iceman13]

The NFL uses a collective bargaining agreement. By definition, this agreement is socialism. I hate socialism! It is ruining this great country that Ronald Reagan worked so hard to found.
I am boycotting all NFL games played in Los Angeles this season for this reason.
Anyone who gets a government hand-out (unemployment or disability check or food stamps) is a dirty socialist.
Jesus H. Christ is a true conservative.
Does everyone want to hear my thought on politics and religion?
I didn't think you did...


Unfortunately, it goes far beyond individuals sucking off the system. There are too many unions, corporations, local and state governments, the federal government, etc...bankrupting the citizens of America. It is a numbers game. The entities living off the system get to vote. As long as there are more parasites than producers, you will have Socialists in power. Despite how truly incompetent it is, the current government isn't the problem. It is the result of the problem. You had best get used to Socialism for it will persist and thrive in America for quite some time (you haven't seen anything yet!).

With respect to Limbaugh and Vick, the NFL is a big business. The NFL decided that Vick, despite his problems, was still good for business (would sell tickets) and Limbaugh was bad for business. It is about money. Period.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Unfortunately, it goes far beyond individuals sucking off the system. There are too many unions, corporations, local and state governments, the federal government, etc...bankrupting the citizens of America. It is a numbers game. The entities living off the system get to vote. As long as there are more parasites than producers, you will have Socialists in power. Despite how truly incompetent it is, the current government isn't the problem. It is the result of the problem. You had best get used to Socialism for it will persist and thrive in America for quite some time (you haven't seen anything yet!).

With respect to Limbaugh and Vick, the NFL is a big business. The NFL decided that Vick, despite his problems, was still good for business (would sell tickets) and Limbaugh was bad for business. It is about money. Period.
Thanks for the history lesson, professor.

[suicide_squeeze]

Thanks for the history lesson, professor.

What.....no insulting picture to add to your venom?