Lebron jersey - A5

[kingjammy24]

1) troy kinunen: "Before we issue the A5 grade, the following criteria must first be met:
"Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and match in..size"

This is the process that elimates store bought jerseys from game issued jerseys... each item is checked via our worksheet and compared to our database for:
...
5. Correct size for player
...
10.We make sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player

All of these manufacturers characteristics must be present before the A5 grade is considered for post 1987 jerseys.

Therefore, if the examined jersey does not match 100% correctly with all of the above, no A5 grade is awarded. Again, no store model jerseys as awarded the A5 grade, EVER....MEARS has never assigned a grade to a retail jersey"

2) barry meisel: "According to information we've received through the NBA & MeiGray Game-Worn Authentication Program, consistent with three photo-matched game-worn Lebron James jerseys we have authenticated (2005-06 regular season, 2006-07 Hardwood Classics currently up for auction, and 2007 NBA Finals Game 3 jersey that will be up for auction soon), and consistent with the 2007-08 China Games '07 Lebron James that just arrived ... Lebron James wears a Size 50, Plus-2 jersey.."

3) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150347096947

lebron james jersey. 52 + 4. widely available on the retail website jersey-joe.com for $600. size is incorrect. jersey was still awarded an A5.

rudy.

[trsent]

1) troy kinunen: "Before we issue the A5 grade, the following criteria must first be met:
"Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and match in..size"

This is the process that elimates store bought jerseys from game issued jerseys... each item is checked via our worksheet and compared to our database for:
...
5. Correct size for player
...
10.We make sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player

All of these manufacturers characteristics must be present before the A5 grade is considered for post 1987 jerseys.

Therefore, if the examined jersey does not match 100% correctly with all of the above, no A5 grade is awarded. Again, no store model jerseys as awarded the A5 grade, EVER....MEARS has never assigned a grade to a retail jersey"

2) barry meisel: "According to information we've received through the NBA & MeiGray Game-Worn Authentication Program, consistent with three photo-matched game-worn Lebron James jerseys we have authenticated (2005-06 regular season, 2006-07 Hardwood Classics currently up for auction, and 2007 NBA Finals Game 3 jersey that will be up for auction soon), and consistent with the 2007-08 China Games '07 Lebron James that just arrived ... Lebron James wears a Size 50, Plus-2 jersey.."

3) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150347096947

lebron james jersey. 52 + 4. widely available on the retail website jersey-joe.com for $600. size is incorrect. jersey was still awarded an A5.

rudy.

That sucks - I guess you are not going to buy this jersey.

If you have concerns about the MEARS letter, I would email troy@mearsonline.com with your concerns to get an answer from him that may help you determine if you wish to buy this jersey.

Please let us know how he replies.

[Danny899]

I don't think the A5 score carries as much weight as it did a year or so ago. Even good points and concerns have been raised here regarding higher ratings. The A5 sounds like it means, "Yeah it could be, looks like it, not sure, but it could possibly be." They do however seem to do a lot more research than most companies who just put out a generic letter. But after a $200 or so fee, a non experienced buyer probably would want something much more concrete. An example would be myself, who knows nothing about basketball jerseys. If I was to purchase a Lebron jersey based on this score (in essence letting them do the homework) and then I later read the issues posted above, I would have serious concerns about my purchase.

[trsent]

I don't think the A5 score carries as much weight as it did a year or so ago. Even good points and concerns have been raised here regarding higher ratings. The A5 sounds like it means, "Yeah it could be, looks like it, not sure, but it could possibly be." They do however seem to do a lot more research than most companies who just put out a generic letter. But after a $200 or so fee, a non experienced buyer probably would want something much more concrete. An example would be myself, who knows nothing about basketball jerseys. If I was to purchase a Lebron jersey based on this score (in essence letting them do the homework) and then I later read the issues posted above, I would have serious concerns about my purchase.

Danny - You are 100% correct. The A5 grade is often abused in the current marketplace, but please take note - the issues raised by Rudy based on one jersey authenticated by another company thus making it impossible for LeBron to have worn another size during the entire NBA season is not enough evidence to raise questions about this jersey.

[kingjammy24]

"...thus making it impossible for LeBron to have worn another size during the entire NBA season is not enough evidence to raise questions about this jersey."

as usual joel, you've missed the boat. read the troy's requirements for the A5:

"5. Correct size for player
...
10.We make sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player"

an A5 isn't granted on the basis that "anything is possible". is it possible that lebron wore a size 44? sure! technically, anything's possible. anything being possible does not mean it's the correct size. troy explicitly states that mears makes "..sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player". well, here's my evidence that lebron wore a size 50 in 2005:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/5569/silly.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/4179/sillyc.jpg

as well, barry meisel is known to have handled lebron's gamers obtained directly from the league. as such, i think his comments regarding lebron wearing a size 50 carry substantial weight.

conversely, how did troy "make sure" lebron wore a 52? does mears have a single shred of any sort of evidence that lebron wore a 52 in 2005/06?
he didn't make sure because no such evidence exists. it's just more mears doublespeak; mears says they stylematch things and it's been shown that they do not. now they're saying they make sure the size is correct and i am telling you they do not. the point here is that mears says that they do things that the evidence shows they do not.

it's very likely that at the time mears evaulated that jersey, they had no clue what size lebron really wore. if they had contacted barry meisel or spent some time on getty they might've learnt otherwise. so they had no idea yet they said their letter states that they know 52 is "the correct size". how did they arrive at that conclusion? what evidence? i arrived at my conclusion that he wore a 50 via images and barry meisel's opinion. how did mears arrive at their opinion? flip of a coin? spin the bottle?
it's yet another example of mears claiming to know things they do not. the last time i took troy to task for purporting to know things he didn't, he said it was to "build their database".

joel you should open an authentication service and call it "Anything's Possible"..

irate customer - "..in your LOA, you stated that a size 40 jersey was correct for pujols in 2003. how did you arrive at that unlikely size?"

JA - "well..is it possible that he wore a size 40?"

irate customer - "i guess it's technically possible.."

JA - "well there you go! correct size!"

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/371/sillyzqe.jpg

yet troy made sure that a 52 was issued to lebron. riiiiiiiight. just like their non-existent stylematches.

rudy.

[Mac670]

In its current nba auction according to Meigrey he is sporting a 48+4 size jersey. How in the world can Lebron wear a 48+4 or 50+4 and Kobe wears a 54+4 and 56+4? I know Dans the lakers expert but can anybody tell me how can this be or is the tag just a tag and they really are measuring other parts of the jersey.

Anthony

[sportscentury]

I don't think the A5 score carries as much weight as it did a year or so ago. Even good points and concerns have been raised here regarding higher ratings. The A5 sounds like it means, "Yeah it could be, looks like it, not sure, but it could possibly be." They do however seem to do a lot more research than most companies who just put out a generic letter. But after a $200 or so fee, a non experienced buyer probably would want something much more concrete. An example would be myself, who knows nothing about basketball jerseys. If I was to purchase a Lebron jersey based on this score (in essence letting them do the homework) and then I later read the issues posted above, I would have serious concerns about my purchase.

I was always surprised by the weight the A5 grade carried. From a simple common sense perspective (regardless of MEARS' definition of A5), if an item is graded a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, you would think that folks would understand that this is not a particularly high grade. Even if I were really into authentications, I wouldn't be too quick to go after a grade 7 or 8, never mind a 5.

[sportscentury]

In its current nba auction according to Meigrey he is sporting a 48+4 size jersey. How in the world can Lebron wear a 48+4 or 50+4 and Kobe wears a 54+4 and 56+4? I know Dans the lakers expert but can anybody tell me how can this be or is the tag just a tag and they really are measuring other parts of the jersey.

Anthony

LeBron's jerseys fit him. Kobe is swimming in his. Take a look at some live pics and you'll see what I mean.

[kingjammy24]

.. if an item is graded a 5 on a scale of 1 to 10, you would think that folks would understand that this is not a particularly high grade...

"The highest grade a post-1987 jersey can obtain without team or player documentation, or verifiable provenance, or a combination of known distinct player specific traits is an A5."

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

LeBron's jerseys fit him. Kobe is swimming in his. Take a look at some live pics and you'll see what I mean.

http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9517/sillyg.jpg

rudy.

[sportscentury]

"The highest grade a post-1987 jersey can obtain without team or player documentation, or verifiable provenance, or a combination of known distinct player specific traits is an A5."

rudy.

Based on my complete post, I hope it was clear that I was speaking from the perspective of someone who doesn't know the MEARS specifics. My guess is that many collectors who buy these A5 jerseys are not well-versed on the MEARS rules and definitions.

Even knowing the specifics, though, I'm not sure that I find "the highest grade" (of A5) on a scale that is this qualified all that compelling.

With all of this said, it seems to mean a lot to a good number of collectors. I just never understood it.

.

[trsent]

Rudy, did you ask Troy about this jersey as I suggested? Maybe he could answer your questions as it appears you feel you know every size worn by LeBron that year and maybe Troy could shed some light with an answer instead of your one sided crusade to smear the MEARS name time and time again.

[kingjammy24]

Rudy, did you ask Troy about this jersey as I suggested?

i have an email in to troy about it. i eagerly await his response. i shall post it as soon as i receive it.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

as always, troy was good enough to reply:

"Here is the complete definition of the A5 grade as found on our website.

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

fair enough. however, with such leeway in sizes (and without any evidence supporting one size over another), the idea of a "correct" size is pretty much thrown out the window. what becomes an "incorrect" size? a 52 is fine, a 50 is fine, a 48 is good. somehow they're all "correct"; at least on paper, if not reality. apparently, if a MEARS LOO states that a size is "correct" it doesn't actually mean the size is correct. it may simply mean that the authenticator was afforded a large size variance. so if you buy a jersey and the letter, for example, states that a size 50 is "correct" for a certain player, it's not that MEARS has verified that the size is correct; it's simply that the size is somewhere in the ballpark of the size that the player really wore. if they really wore a 48 then a 50 would be considered "correct". bizarro-world but there you have it.

rudy.

[trsent]

as always, troy was good enough to reply:

"Here is the complete definition of the A5 grade as found on our website.

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."

fair enough. however, with such leeway in sizes (and without any evidence supporting one size over another), the idea of a "correct" size is pretty much thrown out the window. what becomes an "incorrect" size? a 52 is fine, a 50 is fine, a 48 is good. somehow they're all "correct"; at least on paper, if not reality. apparently, if a MEARS LOO states that a size is "correct" it doesn't actually mean the size is correct. it may simply mean that the authenticator was afforded a large size variance. so if you buy a jersey and the letter, for example, states that a size 50 is "correct" for a certain player, it's not that MEARS has verified that the size is correct; it's simply that the size is somewhere in the ballpark of the size that the player really wore. if they really wore a 48 then a 50 would be considered "correct". bizarro-world but there you have it.

rudy.

Rudy, so now you have MEARS response and it appears you will still not be buying this jersey so at least you found out what you were looking for.

It all is very interesting to see MEARS response to questions.

[aeneas01]

"A5 Manufactures characteristics of the jersey have been compared to known authentic examples and are consistent with respects to what would be expected to be seen in a game issued jersey. Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position, field of play, and duration of use. The degree of wear will be measured from minimal to heavy and the jersey cannot exhibit negative, missing, or incorrect manufacturers traits or use characteristics. When team or player provenance is lacking, wear can be measured, but not attributed directly to examined player. Without reasonable and verifiable provenance for post-1987 Hall of Fame or period star player jersey's, the A5 designation may still be assigned if the jersey possesses qualities and physical characteristics of a Major League jersey that was manufactured for player use or as an extra for a team or player, or one that may have been made available for retail sale or promotion (while still containing the physical characteristics consistent with game issued jerseys). It should be noted that variances with respect to number/lettering placement, font, stitching, size, patch placement and other manufacturers characteristics may be present on MEARS A5 jerseys when compared to documented game used jerseys. A MEARS A5 jersey may still be assigned the grade without an accompanying photomatch or may exhibit variations when compared to an examined available image."
am i reading this correctly? mears will grade and issue a letter on a retail jersey if it strikes them as something close to what a player wore? what's "authentic" about a retail jersey? i mean what other purpose does a letter serve if not one of authenticity?


Rudy, did you ask Troy about this jersey as I suggested? Maybe he could answer your questions as it appears you feel you know every size worn by LeBron that year and maybe Troy could shed some light with an answer instead of your one sided crusade to smear the MEARS name time and time again.

help me out here joel - what exactly do you feel constitutes a "smear" in this thread, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears. seems to me that rudy spreads his love around; mears, lampson, ebay sellers, auction houses, etc... and, fyi, that's a good thing. for all of us.


...

[trsent]

help me out here joel - what exactly do you feel constitutes a "smear" in this thread, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears. seems to me that rudy spreads his love around; mears, lampson, ebay sellers, auction houses, etc... and, fyi, that's a good thing. for all of us.


...

Robert, you can do a search for Rudy's posts and read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item. I am not going to do the search for you, but if you really care, it is really easy to read every post Rudy has ever made on this forum.

I am glad Rudy has made his issues public and now Rudy doesn't have to buy this jersey because he doesn't like the grade or opinion or concept of MEARS authentication. That is his choice. MEARS gave an opinion and Rudy didn't like it, so he won't buy this jersey.

Did MEARS ever give an opinion that this was a game used jersey?

[kingjammy24]

...read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item...

it has nothing to do with not "liking their opinion". joel, if you paid a man to change the oil in your car and later found out he didn't change it, is that simply a case of "not liking his opinion"? is it really such a bizarre concept to expect a company to do what it says it does?

various items evaluated by mears were said to have been stylematched. they were not. in the least. this is not a case of not liking their opinion. it's a case of paying mears to do a job that they say they did but really didn't.

the mears A5 states that the jersey size must be correct. how is a 52+4 correct for james? saying it might possibly be correct isn't the same thing is it being correct. troy's defense was that the A5 definition also gives mears the leeway to accept size variances thus enabling them to say that almost any size is correct. when troy said that one of the criteria for the A5 is that mears "makes sure that the size was issued to the player", this is simply not true. mears does not make sure the size was issued to the player. they say they do, but they don't. how did mears make sure a 52+4 was issued to james? they didn't.

this has nothing to do with opinions. it has to do with doing what you say and saying what you do. if a man says he'll do a certain task and you pay him to do that task then shouldn't he do it?

mears says they do things that they simply do not do. this is not my opinion, it's fact.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

am i reading this correctly? mears will grade and issue a letter on a retail jersey if it strikes them as something close to what a player wore? what's "authentic" about a retail jersey? i mean what other purpose does a letter serve if not one of authenticity?...
hello robert

previously, troy stated that what mears means by "retail" in that context are gamers that were sold via retail channels such as a team store or steiner; he didn't mean to refer to jerseys that were solely meant for retail sale. basically, an A5 is supposed to be the same as a legit game-issue. of course, when it's the wrong size, it's not really a game-issue is it? it's more of a pro cut and pro cuts are very much retail shirts.

the purpose of the A5 is that it's supposed to indicate a jersey that meets all of the specs of a jersey issued for play to that particular player. my issue is that mears states that it makes sure the size is correct but it seems they don't. troy did not provide any evidence whatsoever that james ever wore a 52+4. what troy did provide was a loophole in the language that allows for size variances under the A5. if you allow for size variances then you aren't making "sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player". mears is contradicting itself within the same grade. on one hand troy says that in order to earn an A5 a jersey must be the correct size and on the other he says that the A5 allows for size variances which means it doesn't have to be the correct size!

if you're a collector and you saw that 52+4 with mears A5 and you read troy's statement about what constitutes an A5, you would be very much under the impression that mears made sure that lebron was issued a 52+4. but that would be completely incorrect. mears has no evidence whatsoever that lebron was issued such a size.

here are dave bushing's comments (bolding is my own):

"For those keeping track, MEARS has done a total of 42 Lebron James Cleveland jerseys between 3-24-05 and 1-25-09. 33 were size 50, 7 were size 52, all were graded A5 without a single game worn designated example that was accompanied by any provenance. There were also two size 54 jerseys each garnering an A3. To date, MEARS has never authenticated a single example of DOCUMENTED GAME WORN JAMES JERSEY. Given the large number of professional model A5 shirts that have been examined and recorded, at the very least, it is a great example of the difference between the rarity factor of a professionl MODEL jersey and one that can be put "on his back" sort of speak. It also shows the reason why a DOCUMENTED GAME WORN JERSEY such as those obtained directly from the team or player are worth far more than their common professional MODEL counterpart. Example; Payton Manning jerseys acquired through him versus the seemingly endless supply of A5 professional models. Bottom line, an A5 professional model jersey is great for display and or autographs at a certain price level but if you want to collect real, truly worn authenticate and documented game worn jersey, they are very rare in proportion to your typical A5 example and are usually priced accordingly. Hence, an A5 is not an A10. Just my two cents. David Bushing

Given that 33 of the A5 jerseys were size 50 and 7 were size 52 which if I do my math right is just over 75% of those examined were true to documented game worn sizes, can someone post the website that shows where factory direct completely pro tagged jerseys of any size can be ordered by the general public. It has been suggested that any shirt other than a size 50 that is tagged identically to those sized 50 documented game worn jerseys can be purchased at the retail level. I would like to order one to compare measurements and tagging. If I am not mistaken, the mere suggestion that such a shirt is nothing more than a retail shirt would suggest that these can be purchased by anyone direct from the manufacturer. If I can purchase one myself, I will publish the pictures detailing the difference, if any, between the pro model pro tagged shirts and those available through mail order which at best, should be identical except that they will be a size 52+2 rahter than a size 50+2. David Bushing"

order away dave: http://www.jersey-joe.com/bask_rbk_nba_procuts.html

anyway, back when jersey-joe did sell lebron jerseys, the only size that he offered was...*drum roll*.. a 52+4! shocker.

rudy.

[trsent]

Rudy, so, what proof do you offer that LeBron didn't wear the size in questions and even if he didn't wear that size, what proof do you show the jersey was not worn for him?

Please, your work is generally very good, but your facts need proof to back them up. Maybe you should contact The Cavs to find out LeBron's jersey orders otherwise you are creating conflict, as usual, in your attempt to smear the MEARS name with just speculation and no concrete proof.

[kingjammy24]

Rudy, so, what proof do you offer that LeBron didn't wear the size in questions and even if he didn't wear that size, what proof do you show the jersey was not worn for him?

Please, your work is generally very good, but your facts need proof to back them up. Maybe you should contact The Cavs to find out LeBron's jersey orders otherwise you are creating conflict, as usual, in your attempt to smear the MEARS name with just speculation and no concrete proof.

the inherant issue is not whether james never wore a 52+4. (only you would expect someone to prove a negative). the issue is that mears has already stated that a 52+4 is correct yet they have no evidence whatsoever. they state they "make sure the size was issued" but they don't. do you understand this? do you understand that they get paid for this stuff and they make claims that they don't back up? you've completely glossed over all of that and instead ask me to prove james never wore a 52. could mears be right? of course. but mears isn't simply saying james might've possibly worn a 52, which i would be fine with. they're not even saying they aren't sure what size he wore. they're
asserting he DID wear a 52. yet apparently that assertion is based on nothing.

rudy.

[trsent]

the inherant issue is not whether james never wore a 52+4. (only you would expect someone to prove a negative). the issue is that mears has already stated that a 52+4 is correct yet they have no evidence whatsoever. they state they "make sure the size was issued" but they don't. do you understand this? do you understand that they get paid for this stuff and they make claims that they don't back up? you've completely glossed over all of that and instead ask me to prove james never wore a 52. could mears be right? of course. but mears isn't simply saying james might've possibly worn a 52, which i would be fine with. they're not even saying they aren't sure what size he wore. they're
asserting he DID wear a 52. yet apparently that assertion is based on nothing.

rudy.

...and you have proved nothing but continued your smear campaign without any proof.

Don't buy the jersey if you do not like it.

Your continued smear of the MEARS name, with speculation because you do not like the system is pathetic and getting old. They try hard to do what they do.

They never claimed the jersey was "game used" did they? The seller may have, but did MEARS call it "game used" to not give it an A5? If this size jerseys were ordered by The Cavs, then a A5 is correct, right?

Prove them wrong because they owe you nothing for your continued attacks on their solid work in this industry.

[aeneas01]

Robert, you can do a search for Rudy's posts and read Rudy's campaign to "smear" MEARS when he doesn't like their opinion for an item. I am not going to do the search for you, but if you really care, it is really easy to read every post Rudy has ever made on this forum.

once again joel: what exactly was posted by rudy in this thread that leads you to believe he has "smeared" mears, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears.

you suggest that i conduct my own search of rudy's posts for proof of your allegations, that you will not search for me. the thing is joel, i don't have to search rudy's posts because i've already read them and have never encountered anything that could possibly be construed as a mears "smear campaign" on his part. so again joel, where are these examples? i'll make it easier for you - just point to one example.

btw, and i'm just spitballing here, could it be that you're taking a stab at grown up terms which you don't fully grasp? "smear campaign" for example? do you actually know what this means, what constitutes a "smear campaign"? i ask because i think knowing the actual definition of this term might be helpful in your quest for examples of rudy "smearing" mears.

...

[Moustache Gang]

Rudy,

When are you going to learn to stop trying to formulate any discussion with the "unofficial MEARS certified dealer"?? He dances around clear and convincing evidence better than the gymnast that just won the trophy on DWTS!!!

It was almost this time last year when we had the discussion about MEARS VERY SUBJECTIVE scoring system.

Look, here is just one of the problems with the MEARS scoring system.

They can take an actual mid 70's Rollie Fingers and subtract two points -2 for "light use", subtract two point -2 for god only knows what size stain and subtract one -1 for a "name properly restored" for a final score of an A5. Now to me and most collectors, one would believe that jersey was worn by Rollie but it has some staining and restored name.

Now on the same hand they can take a Lebron jersey from any year that looks just like what he wears in a game, size does not really matter, no proof he ever wore the jersey and they can give it an A5. No proof Lebron wore the jersey, Bushing admits they have never authenticated a true game worn Lebron jersey so they have to true exemplar to compare, but it is close to a 50 so they give it an A5!!!

Throw the dart on the dartboard and if it hits anywhere near the bullseye it is a bullseye!!!

There is just know way both of these jerseys can have the same score and that is just one of the flaws of the subjective MEARS scoring system.

I not trying to smear MEARS period. Troy and Dave G. have admitted mistakes in the past, they have admitted they are not right all the time and Troy puts his money where his mouth is. They have a buy back program that works.

They just have a very subjective scoring system and they need to tighten it up and make it more OBJECTIVE.

Are they the best authentication house in the world??? Probably...based on the other handfull of crappy authenticators.

Are they a "world-class" authentication house? Not even close.

The problem with the A5 score is that many collectors believe that an A5 means the jersey was game worn by the athlete. So now all these collectors who have purchased an A5 Lebron believe they have an actual Lebron game used jersey when there is no proof whatsoeverKing James wore this jersey in any NBA game .

Mark

[trsent]

once again joel: what exactly was posted by rudy in this thread that leads you to believe he has "smeared" mears, be precise please. also, if you would, please point to other examples, other posts, of rudy "smearing" mears.

you suggest that i conduct my own search of rudy's posts for proof of your allegations, that you will not search for me. the thing is joel, i don't have to search rudy's posts because i've already read them and have never encountered anything that could possibly be construed as a mears "smear campaign" on his part. so again joel, where are these examples? i'll make it easier for you - just point to one example.

btw, and i'm just spitballing here, could it be that you're taking a stab at grown up terms which you don't fully grasp? "smear campaign" for example? do you actually know what this means, what constitutes a "smear campaign"? i ask because i think knowing the actual definition of this term might be helpful in your quest for examples of rudy "smearing" mears.

...

Robert - What is your point? Rudy bashes groups he doesn't like and he kisses ass of groups he likes. He thinks everyone he doesn't like is out to commit fraud and everyone he like's is clean. Read his posts about MEARS, it is the same issues every day.

I thought you were a helmet expert - What do you have to offer about the jersey/letter in question?

If you don't like my use of what I feel is the English language, block my posts and then you won't have to read it anymore. Why is this so difficult?

[trsent]

Rudy,

When are you going to learn to stop trying to formulate any discussion with the "unofficial MEARS certified dealer"?? He dances around clear and convincing evidence better than the gymnast that just won the trophy on DWTS!!!

It was almost this time last year when we had the discussion about MEARS VERY SUBJECTIVE scoring system.

Look, here is just one of the problems with the MEARS scoring system.

They can take an actual mid 70's Rollie Fingers and subtract two points -2 for "light use", subtract two point -2 for god only knows what size stain and subtract one -1 for a "name properly restored" for a final score of an A5. Now to me and most collectors, one would believe that jersey was worn by Rollie but it has some staining and restored name.

Now on the same hand they can take a Lebron jersey from any year that looks just like what he wears in a game, size does not really matter, no proof he ever wore the jersey and they can give it an A5. No proof Lebron wore the jersey, Bushing admits they have never authenticated a true game worn Lebron jersey so they have to true exemplar to compare, but it is close to a 50 so they give it an A5!!!

Throw the dart on the dartboard and if it hits anywhere near the bullseye it is a bullseye!!!

There is just know way both of these jerseys can have the same score and that is just one of the flaws of the subjective MEARS scoring system.

I not trying to smear MEARS period. Troy and Dave G. have admitted mistakes in the past, they have admitted they are not right all the time and Troy puts his money where his mouth is. They have a buy back program that works.

They just have a very subjective scoring system and they need to tighten it up and make it more OBJECTIVE.

Are they the best authentication house in the world??? Probably...based on the other handfull of crappy authenticators.

Are they a "world-class" authentication house? Not even close.

The problem with the A5 score is that many collectors believe that an A5 means the jersey was game worn by the athlete. So now all these collectors who have purchased an A5 Lebron believe they have an actual Lebron game used jersey when there is no proof whatsoeverKing James wore this jersey in any NBA game .

Mark

Mark - I am not a MEARS anything dealer anymore - Get over it.

You made some good points, but why bring up a term I no longer associate with? Do you really have nothing better to do than bring that up?

I have no associations with MEARS officially or unofficially anymore.

[aeneas01]

Robert - What is your point?

my point? simple. and i'll repeat it. again. using less words.

a) rudy, a forum member, has brought up very valid points in this thread.
b) this does not constitute a "smear".
c) rudy, a forum member, has brought up very valid points in other threads.
d) this does not constitute a "smear campaign".
e) it's clear you are unfamiliar with the meaning of the term/phrase, yet you use it freely albeit incorrectly.
f) i ask you to show me an example of rudy, a forum member, "smearing" mears. yet you don't.
g) why? because you have no idea what a "smear" is, nor a "smear campaign".
h) yet you continue to accuse a forum member of this practice.

hope that clears things up for you...


previously, troy stated that what mears means by "retail" in that context are gamers that were sold via retail channels such as a team store or steiner; he didn't mean to refer to jerseys that were solely meant for retail sale.

o.k., gotcha. "...made available for retail sale" does not mean "...made for retail sale". hence troy's comment you posted:

"Again, no store model jerseys (were) awarded the A5 grade, EVER....MEARS has never assigned a grade to a retail jersey"

so mears clearly does not award grades to retail jerseys. that's nice to know, makes sense. yet despite game photo evidence of james sporting a 50 +2, mears grades a james 52 +4 an a5? yet despite jersey joe having sold 52 +4 james jerseys to anyone willing to plunk down $600, mears graded the ebay jersey an a5? that's not nice to know, doesn't seem to make sense. perhaps the ebay jersey mears graded as an a5 actually came directly from the "nba factory"?

...

[reed1216]

I really think that the bottom line here is that an A5 grade is pretty worthless. Frankly, unless I was well aware of a jerseys characteristics to the extent that I would call myself an expert, I wouldn't make a purchase on the sole basis of MEARS' rating of below an A10 without either a vey good explanation/proof or additional team, league, or player provenence.

I do think MEARS authenticates as well as anyone in the industry, with the exception of MeiGray. While there have been a number of errors, MEARS seems to make every effort to get things right. Although their rating system probably needs some revisions, it's a helluva lot better than some auction house issuing LOAs without doing any research at all.

NBA jerseys are tough, because they're so easy to pass off as game worn. In fact, I gave up collecting NBA stuff for awhile and recently got back into it because of MeiGray's involvement. Of the five NBA jerseys I own, three are directly from MeiGray (Amare Stoudemire X-Mas, Jamal Crawford St. Patty's Day and a 2006-07 Nate Robinson road that I bought for 1/2 price, during MeiGray's Facebook sale). One is a vintage Walter Davis Suns, circa 1980, which I was able to style match with other Suns jerseys from that period. Plus, I purchased it from a forum member (Warren-BTPH), who's opinion I respect with regard to vintage NBA jerseys. The other is a Kevin Garnett Wolves jersey with team paperwork. I was even somewhat skepical of the Garnett because it was cheaper than one would expect from a future HOFer, but the jersey shows good use, particularly with piling around the lower, front portion of the jersey, where the velcro would have rubbed against the material. Plus, it has the LOA from the Wolves.

If you are buying a jersey with the thought that it was game worn without either doing your own research or buying from MeiGray, you're gambling. I know I would hate to have to look at my wall wondering whether or not one of my jerseys was real or not. I want the real deal and have no interest in buying anything that might (or might not) have been game worn.

http://community.webshots.com/user/Reed97

[jonincleve]

what am i missing here?

1) all known exemplars of lebron james jerseys are size 50+2
2) there are no photos of lebron james wearing a 52+4
3) lebron 52+4 jerseys were available at retail sale

how can a 52+4 even get graded?

take care
john

[nyjetsfan14]

I recently purchased a 1994 NY Jets preseason jersey accompanied by a MEARS LOO and worksheet. I originally owned the jersey, sold it, it somehow ended up with MEARS, then to another dealer before I re-purchased it off e-Bay. The MEARS worksheet indicates an A5 grade but the LOO indicates an A4. The grades are supposed to match up. The jersey has had the anniversary patch removed (there is evidence of such), the Champion sleeve identifiers removed from the sleeve stripe and resewn above the sleeve stripes, and the NOB is atypical of what the Jets wore in the early 90's on their non throwback jerseys. All of these are points I made in my original item description when I sold the jersey and to me are very explainable/justifiable - actually lending to the legitimacy of the piece. However, there is no mention at all of any of those very visible and important issues on either the worksheet or LOO even though the LOO indicates a photo style match. I e-mailed MEARS and they were nice enough to respond admitting more effort could/should have been put forth and that they could reissue new documentation to include the issues I brought forth - which I politely declined as I do all my own write ups. This information is not to disparage MEARS or anyone else but rather to reinforce the number one rule we always hammer on this forum - DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK and seek assistance from fellow members. Do not depend on any authenticator/auction house no matter how fancy a COA or worksheet they have. Posts like Rudy's, Robert's, Howard's, etc... go a loooong way in helping the collecting community arm themselves with information. Helping one another and sharing information is the primary purpose of the forum and I personally do not feel either constitutes smearing but rather participating in good faith and keeping in the spirit of the hobby. Happy collecting to all!

[sportscentury]

I do think MEARS authenticates as well as anyone in the industry, with the exception of MeiGray.

I agree. If a buyer wants/needs third-party authentication, I recommend MEARS.

As for MeiGray, they only authenticate an outside item if they have first photomatched it. Let me tell you, this exclusionary criterion quickly filters out a lot of crap!

As for your Garnett, if it shows good wear, you may want MeiGray to photomatch it. A photomatched Garnett T-Wolves jersey would be a gem. I have passed on a few Garnett T-Wolves jerseys with team letters recently because they have shown no real wear (and I think some extras may have been sold with team letters, which is, in part, why they do not command much money on the secondary market any longer) ... but it sounds like you picked up one of the jerseys he actually wore. It sounds like a great shirt.

[kingjammy24]

..what do the MEARS haters want?

joel i have 1 question for you. it's a yes/no question so it's pretty simple.

troy said that one of the criteria to garner an A5 is that mears makes "..sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player". those were his words, not mine.

here is my question to you: in regards to the jersey in question, did mears "make sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued" to lebron james?

rudy.

[reed1216]

Reid- Thanks for the suggestion about sending the jersey to MeiGray to see if they can photomatch it. I might just do that.

.

[sportscentury]

Reid- Thanks for the suggestion about sending the jersey to MeiGray to see if they can photomatch it. I might just do that.

.

Reed - if you do, and it is matched, please post the pics so that we can all check it out.

[reed1216]

Will do, Reid.

[trsent]

joel i have 1 question for you. it's a yes/no question so it's pretty simple.

troy said that one of the criteria to garner an A5 is that mears makes "..sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player". those were his words, not mine.

here is my question to you: in regards to the jersey in question, did mears "make sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued" to lebron james?

rudy.

I would guess they approved the size if they wrote the letter.

You showed him wearing another size in a few photos but that doesn't mean he never wore the size you showed, does it?

You want Troy to prove something to you that he doesn't have to - You have to prove it to him and stop the slander until you do.

He owes you nothing - He replied to your email, you didn't like the reply and you think he has to prove the size to you - Why? What do you offer to MEARS except for attack after attack even when Troy shows responsibility for errors proved against him?

Their system is amazing and they have a history of working with the industry like few others, but you want to harp on an issue you cannot even 100% is in error because you like the bad press for MEARS. Prove your point, don't just offer speculation and then I can tell you I agree with you on this one.

Or maybe you should waste your time personally attacking me.

Finally, Sammy, why the picture of me and Warren? Was there a point to this?

[mvandor]

I would guess they approved the size if they wrote the letter.

You showed him wearing another size in a few photos but that doesn't mean he never wore the size you showed, does it?

You want Troy to prove something to you that he doesn't have to - You have to prove it to him and stop the slander until you do.

He owes you nothing - He replied to your email, you didn't like the reply and you think he has to prove the size to you - Why? What do you offer to MEARS except for attack after attack even when Troy shows responsibility for errors proved against him?

Their system is amazing and they have a history of working with the industry like few others, but you want to harp on an issue you cannot even 100% is in error because you like the bad press for MEARS. Prove your point, don't just offer speculation and then I can tell you I agree with you on this one.

Or maybe you should waste your time personally attacking me.

Finally, Sammy, why the picture of me and Warren? Was there a point to this?

Joel, it is obviously impossible to prove a negative. Further, it is the AUTHENTICATOR'S professional responsibility to demonstrate, PER THEIR OWN STANDARDS, that the size is consistent with known evidence. I'm sure Troy and company themselves wouldn't argue that. Either they have evidence or they don't and let this one slip through, by mistake.

Or I'm truly misreading their A5 grade description.

[jdr3]

mvandor-beautifully said!

[trsent]

Joel, it is obviously impossible to prove a negative. Further, it is the AUTHENTICATOR'S professional responsibility to demonstrate, PER THEIR OWN STANDARDS, that the size is consistent with known evidence. I'm sure Troy and company themselves wouldn't argue that. Either they have evidence or they don't and let this one slip through, by mistake.

Or I'm truly misreading their A5 grade description.

Sir, you are wrong here - Troy found the jersey to be consistent with LeBron sizes - If Rudy feels it is the wrong size, get solid proof to prove otherwise. Some samples does not make a wrong, does it?

Troy don't owe Rudy anything but a lawsuit for slander. Rudy doesn't think the size is correct? Get records to prove it.

[kingjammy24]

"I would guess they approved the size if they wrote the letter."

i didn't ask if MEARS approved the size. read the question joel. slowly if you have to. here it is once again: "did troy make sure that a size 52+4 was issued to lebron james?".

"You showed him wearing another size in a few photos but that doesn't mean he never wore the size you showed, does it?"

no it doesn't. i never said lebron never wore a 52+4. troy stated the size is correct and i questioned how he came to that conclusion. when i asked him, he had no answer other than that the MEARS A5 definition allows him size variances.

anyway, your logic is phenomenal. by your school of thought, a correct size can be any size that can't be disproven. amazing. so i guess a size 100 is correct too right? after all, you can't prove he never wore a size 100!

"You have to prove it to him"

i have proven it; i've proven MEARS has no evidence for them to say that a 52+4 is correct. comically, you keep saying "but is it incorrect?". it may not be incorrect, but the point joel is that it's unknown. neither i nor MEARS knows if a 52+4 is incorrect. yet MEARS states it's correct. you seem to think that the only options are "correct" or "incorrect". the third option is "unknown" and that's the basis of my issue; that MEARS says they perform tasks (such as size verification and stylematching) that they don't. if they don't know if a size is correct, they should put "unknown". grade it an A4 or A3 or whatever. point being, if MEARS doesn't know something, they shouldn't say they do know it.

"you think he has to prove the size to you - Why?"

because MEARS' own definition of the A5 states that they verify correct sizes. i'm just holding MEARS to their own policies. apparently you feel that constitutes "slander".

"Prove your point"

i have. MEARS doesn't verify sizes even though they say they do.

rudy.

[Mac670]

I was looking again at Kobe game used jerseys and found that a buy it now 2004-2005 white alternative jersey size 50 + 4 with Mears paperwork graded A5. Now Its been said by Dan that Kobe never wore that size with Reebok. It appears many unsuspecting collectors would definately think that jersey was worn by Kobe, we here at GU would know better. I always assumed a grade A5 from Mears was at least correct when it came to sizes of a particular player used or issued. It makes me think otherwise when I see Mears paperwork.

Anthony

[trsent]

"I would guess they approved the size if they wrote the letter."

i didn't ask if MEARS approved the size. read the question joel. slowly if you have to. here it is once again: "did troy make sure that a size 52+4 was issued to lebron james?".

"You showed him wearing another size in a few photos but that doesn't mean he never wore the size you showed, does it?"

no it doesn't. i never said lebron never wore a 52+4. troy stated the size is correct and i questioned how he came to that conclusion. when i asked him, he had no answer other than that the MEARS A5 definition allows him size variances.

anyway, your logic is phenomenal. by your school of thought, a correct size can be any size that can't be disproven. amazing. so i guess a size 100 is correct too right? after all, you can't prove he never wore a size 100!

"You have to prove it to him"

i have proven it; i've proven MEARS has no evidence for them to say that a 52+4 is correct. comically, you keep saying "but is it incorrect?". it may not be incorrect, but the point joel is that it's unknown. neither i nor MEARS knows if a 52+4 is incorrect. yet MEARS states it's correct. you seem to think that the only options are "correct" or "incorrect". the third option is "unknown" and that's the basis of my issue; that MEARS says they perform tasks (such as size verification and stylematching) that they don't. if they don't know if a size is correct, they should put "unknown". grade it an A4 or A3 or whatever. point being, if MEARS doesn't know something, they shouldn't say they do know it.

"you think he has to prove the size to you - Why?"

because MEARS' own definition of the A5 states that they verify correct sizes. i'm just holding MEARS to their own policies. apparently you feel that constitutes "slander".

"Prove your point"

i have. MEARS doesn't verify sizes even though they say they do.

rudy.

Rudy, great work!

Almost as great as your personal attack against me making fun of my email habits.

[kingjammy24]

joel: let's say there was a jersey on ebay; a 1998 cardinals jersey, size 42, with "BIG MAC ATTAK!" as the NOB and a 69 as the number on the back. would this be a correct 1998 regular season mcgwire game-worn jersey? according to your logic it would be correct because you can't prove he never wore it!

mac670/anthony:

"I was looking again at Kobe game used jerseys and found that a buy it now 2004-2005 white alternative jersey size 50 + 4 with Mears paperwork graded A5. Now Its been said by Dan that Kobe never wore that size with Reebok. It appears many unsuspecting collectors would definately think that jersey was worn by Kobe, we here at GU would know better. I always assumed a grade A5 from Mears was at least correct when it came to sizes of a particular player used or issued. It makes me think otherwise when I see Mears paperwork."

exactly my point. when MEARS says that a jersey must be the correct size in order to garner a certain grade, then people expect the jersey to be the correct size and "correct size" is not a euphemism for a range of sizes ("variances"). when i simply asked troy how MEARS knew a 52+4 was correct, as the corresponding A5 grade state, they had no evidence. they didn't know. if you don't know something, don't say you do. over and over again MEARS has purported to know things they don't. if you don't evaluate a certain aspect of a jersey or don't perform a certain service, don't say you have! it's really very simple. what would i have done if i'd been in troy's shoes on this lebron jersey? i simply would've stated that i have no idea if the size is correct or not, rather than mislead people into thinking i know something i don't.

it's a pretty serious thing when an authenticator says they've verified something that they haven't. it gives a false impression to MEARS clients and hinders their ability to accurately evaluate a piece.

rudy.

[trsent]

joel: let's say there was a jersey on ebay; a 1998 cardinals jersey, size 42, with "BIG MAC ATTAK!" as the NOB and a 69 as the number on the back. would this be a correct 1998 regular season mcgwire game-worn jersey? according to your logic it would be correct because you can't prove he never wore it!

with this sort of logic, i'm starting to think howard wolf's image in this thread might've been taken from actual medical files.

mac670/anthony:

"I was looking again at Kobe game used jerseys and found that a buy it now 2004-2005 white alternative jersey size 50 + 4 with Mears paperwork graded A5. Now Its been said by Dan that Kobe never wore that size with Reebok. It appears many unsuspecting collectors would definately think that jersey was worn by Kobe, we here at GU would know better. I always assumed a grade A5 from Mears was at least correct when it came to sizes of a particular player used or issued. It makes me think otherwise when I see Mears paperwork."

exactly my point. when MEARS says that a jersey must be the correct size in order to garner a certain grade, then people expect the jersey to be the correct size and "correct size" is not a euphemism for a range of sizes ("variances"). when i simply asked troy how MEARS knew a 52+4 was correct, as the corresponding A5 grade state, they had no evidence. they didn't know. if you don't know something, don't say you do. over and over again MEARS has purported to know things they don't. if you don't evaluate a certain aspect of a jersey or don't perform a certain service, don't say you have! it's really very simple. what would i have done if i'd been in troy's shoes on this lebron jersey? i simply would've stated that i have no idea if the size is correct or not, rather than mislead people into thinking i know something i don't.

it's a pretty serious thing when an authenticator says they've verified something that they haven't. it gives a false impression to MEARS clients and hinders their ability to accurately evaluate a piece.

rudy.

Rudy - Due to your personal attacks and new signature attacking me once again I will no longer respond to you personally because you are just a bully as I stated before.

Thanks for attacking me, I appreciate the defense that you should attack someone who speaks the voice of reason.

[ChrisCavalier]

A number of posts on this thread have been deleted because they involved personal comments. If anyone would like to continue posting on this thread please make sure to focus on the subject under discussion and not make personal comments.

Thank you for your compliance.

[joelsabi]

is this pujols jersey a A5 for the same reason?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ALBERT-PUJOLS-Game-Used-Worn-Rookie-Jersey-LOA-2001_W0QQitemZ310143182351QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item4835f9660f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1309|301%3A1 |293%3A1|294%3A200

[zonker]

since were on the subject about double talk when it come to an a-5 designation? what do you guy's think about this as i've never been so confused about a single subject in my life! please read carefully befor posting any comment thank's if you can help me understand and by the way i have asked troy about these kind's of issues and after speaking with him. i am more confused. i purchased this with the idea it was mears a-5 game used designation with mears letter when itarrived this is what i got.

[kingjammy24]

"what do you guy's think about this..."

i think it's really interesting because they've clearly labeled it as a "Procut" on the LOA. how did they know it was a procut? of the 42 lebron jerseys that MEARS has authenticated, were any of those labeled "Procut"?

"i've never been so confused about a single subject in my life!"

from what i understand, an A5 is supposed to be a jersey that meets all of the specs of a legit-game issued shirt but apparently they allow themselves "size variances". MEARS makes no mention or implication of it being game-used or even game-issued. it simply has to match the specs. if that's the case then, why did the label the jordan jersey as a "Procut"? if it met all of the specs, why not simply slap an A5 on it as they have on hundreds of other shirts?

"by the way i have asked troy about these kind's of issues and after speaking with him. i am more confused."

troy's had that effect on many others as well. people have put together the timeline of human evolution faster than they've managed to understand MEARS grades and policies. why MEARS chose to make their system so user-unfriendly, i do not know.

rudy.

[zonker]

biggest concerns by me is: 1) l.o.o states issued to team, then states pro-cut ? are they not differant? 2) states properly tagged and sewn proffessionaly as all game issued for game use are, still "pro cut" designation. 3) doesn't state what year was worn again pro-cut, but comment's state jersey exhibits light wear and signed on the back, but on the letter it also staes under "wear characteristics" evident use: light wear consitent with player: no (pro-cut) they state it show's use but assume it's not by jordan? how do they come with up with that conclusion? i really don't get it? they give an obvious 2003 all-star pro cut jersey on ebay right now an a-5 rating for game use with nothing to back it up from being a pro-cut, but claim mine to be pro-cut but mine is properly tagged ,sewn, font size, you name it in every way to a true jordan gamer and show's use and was signed by jordan himself. but mine get's the shaft on it's value? with the extra "pro-cut" designation on the top of the letter? sorry but, still very confused!!!!

[kingjammy24]

"1) l.o.o states issued to team, then states pro-cut ? are they not differant?"

not literally issued to team. jersey specs consistent with team issuance. but not actually issued. confusing? yes.

"2) states properly tagged and sewn proffessionaly as all game issued for game use are, still "pro cut" designation."

pro cut = pro spec. the big question really is how they knew it was a pro cut.

"3) doesn't state what year was worn again pro-cut, but comment's state jersey exhibits light wear and signed on the back, but on the letter it also staes under "wear characteristics" evident use: light wear consitent with player: no (pro-cut) they state it show's use but assume it's not by jordan?"

one thing i've always found confusing about the A5 is that on one hand mears states that they aren't saying the item was game-worn but they then go on to describe the wear. "exhibits wear..but we're not saying it was game-worn". brilliant. my guess is they don't want to go out on a limb and assert something was game-worn. they'd rather just say the jersey meets pro specs and show use. wherever that use came from is anyone's guess. they don't assume it wasn't by jordan and they don't assume it was by jordan. they just don't take any position on the matter at all.

"they give an obvious 2003 all-star pro cut jersey on ebay right now an a-5 rating for game use with nothing to back it up from being a pro-cut, but claim mine to be pro-cut but mine is properly tagged ,sewn, font size, you name it in every way to a true jordan gamer and show's use and was signed by jordan himself. but mine get's the shaft on it's value? with the extra "pro-cut" designation on the top of the letter? sorry but, still very confused!!!!"

yes. like i said, the big question is why yours managed to get a special "pro cut" designation. i imagine the reality of it is that mears has authenticated dozens of procuts as A5s and not called any of them procuts so why did they call yours a procut? i don't know. only troy would know.

it is interesting though that even a MEARS-admitted procut gets an A5, further solidifying the idea that there's nothing about an A5 that says the jersey was even anywhere near a stadium. it's a just a jersey that meets pro specs, aka a procut. why even bother authenticating a procut? it's not even worth the authentication fee. an A5 is the highest grade that a post-1987 jersey without provenance can achieve. so let's say you've got 2 pujols jerseys for example; one of them you got directly from pujols after a game but have no proof whatsoever and the other came from jersey-joe and was sold as a $500 procut. both would receive an A5. MEARS, in a roundabout way, claims its hands are tied with this current wave of procuts insofar as them being unable to tell them apart from legit gamers. i can't be positive but i believe there are differences and MEARS just isn't looking hard enough. look at the lebron procuts vs gamers. the procuts were the wrong size. pretty big difference.

rudy.

[zonker]

one thing i've always found confusing about the A5 is that on one hand mears states that they aren't saying the item was game-worn but they then go on to describe the wear. "exhibits wear..but we're not saying it was game-worn". brilliant. my guess is they don't want to go out on a limb and assert something was game-worn. they'd rather just say the jersey meets pro specs and show use. wherever that use came from is anyone's guess. they don't assume it wasn't by jordan and they don't assume it was by jordan. they just don't take any position on the matter at all.
that's just the thing, on mine they stated use consistent with player and position. answear: "no" so they took a position. right? and if you look on the work sheet it's not marked as either? i wish they would be more clear on there finding's and how they came to there conclusion or change there grading sysytem to just read and post 1987 jersey without team/player provenance can receive a 50/50 as we don't know. maybe it is or maybe it's not. i guess they would loose alot of customer's that way so i guess in there best interest they award an a5 wheather it's pro-cut (retail) or actually game used. issued to the team for the player, which is a true proffesionally cut jersey, for proffessional play , not retail. i guess there alot of money in confusion! i really appreciate your time rudy! thank's again

[aeneas01]

it is interesting though that even a MEARS-admitted procut gets an A5, further solidifying the idea that there's nothing about an A5 that says the jersey was even anywhere near a stadium. it's a just a jersey that meets pro specs, aka a procut. why even bother authenticating a procut? it's not even worth the authentication fee. an A5 is the highest grade that a post-1987 jersey without provenance can achieve.

according to dave busing, awarding grades (and multi-signed authentication paperwork) to procut jerseys is not only important but it also represents a revolutionary approach introduced by mears to protect the collector. apparently before mears decided to roll up their sleeves and take charge, these sort of garments were being sold as game used. but that's no longer the case thanks to mears' post-'87 a5 grading system. of course one has to wonder why mears' simply doesn't pass on these things, i mean wouldn't that equate to a more deserving "grade"? as you say, what's to authenticate? hmm....

"...Prior to the defined grade of an A5, these very shirts were being sold as game worn jerseys, now they are being called out for what they really are, simply pro stock shirts with no mention anywhere of them ever having been game worn. Again, just my thought. I guess, if people are not comfortable with the basic A5 description , they are completely within their right to do so but I think calling a pro stock shirt out for what it really is, simply that, it is better than calling every shirt that is pro tagged a GAME WORN jersey which seems to have been the standard prior to the MEARS grade."

http://www.network54.com/Forum/471414/thread/1242976484/last-1243041419/lebron+jerseys

...

[nyjetsfan14]

Their system is amazing...

Not sure what makes their "system" amazing? Because they issue a worksheet in addition to a letter? My previous post regarding my recent MEARS purchase of a Jets jersey should clearly show that the worksheet doesn't always mean much. That is no slight against anyone as nobody can be an expert in everything - but it was obvious not even minimal effort went into the worksheet or LOO I received with my piece. I did appreciate the company politely responding to my electronic mail, admitting mistakes/apologizing, and offering to make it right. That in itself can be a rarity these days. Happy collecting to all!

[kingjammy24]

dave bushing has posted some comments on mearsonline.com regarding this entire issue. good to see dave reading and, in a roundabout way, participating in the forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/471414/thread/1242976484/last-1243352278/lebron+jerseys

"If the Pro Cut / Game issued shirts are identical to those worn by the players,.. how is MEARS, once submitted such a jersey with no story (substainable) as to how the shirt was obtained, supposed to make the call between pro cut and game issued since, for this excercise, are identical..".

the entire idea relies entirely on pro cuts and legit game-issues being identical. truthfully, i don't know if they are identical in every single aspect and in this particular case, since MEARS has never handled a meigray/NBA sourced lebron jersey, apparently they wouldn't know if they're identical to procuts either. i'm sure the issue differs across manufacturers and teams as well.

when a manufacturer makes a procut i'm inclined to think they know it's not going to be shipped to the player. this may result in differences from jerseys that they know are being shipped to teams.

"As to the size issue, one picture of a size 50 does not preclude a size bigger or smaller having never been issued."

it doesn't preclude it but it also doesn't verify it as being correct, which is exactly what MEARS claims is necessary for an A5. when troy detailed what was necessary for an A5, he didn't say "an acceptable range of sizes that the player may have possibly worn". he said the size had to be correct.

secondly, while i agree that it's possible james may have worn a 52, the proof of him wearing a 50 is hardly relegated to "one picture". barry meisel has accounted for 4 shirts from 3 separate seasons:

- 2005-06 regular season
- 2006-07 Hardwood Classics
- 2007 NBA Finals Game 3
- 2007-08 China Games

all of them a 50+2.

anyway, i agree with dave's overall sentiment that in some cases, differentiating between pro-cut and gamer can be very difficult. the thing is, i think saying that pro-cuts are completely identical (in every single aspect) to real game-issues is conjecture unless there's been an actual comparison done. i think the general notion of a procut varies too much across years, teams, players, and manufacturers to simply say that all procuts, from all sports, teams, manufacturers, etc are exactly like their game-issued counterparts.

my original point behind this thread was not to say that MEARS A5'd a retail shirt. it also wasn't to somehow assert that lebron never ever wore a 52. i have no way of knowing whether he ever did. rather, it was to point out that MEARS is telling customers that they verify sizes when in fact they do not. it creates a misleading impression for everyone. MEARS states that their intent is to give collectors the information they need to evalulate an item and decide for themselves. well, when MEARS states they've verified the size and they tell collectors this then collectors are going to believe it and take it into consideration in their evaluations. so when a 52+4 lebron A5 jersey pops up, collectors are going to think that MEARS has somehow verified that lebron did indeed wear 52+4s. truthfully, MEARS doesn't know if he ever did.
troy points to the "fine print" of size variances but it contradicts his other statement that sizes are verified as being correct; that in order to earn an A5 the size must be correct.

if i was purchasing a bat from dave bushing and i asked dave if he verified that the length was correct and he indicated he had, it would be a pretty serious problem if in fact he hadn't verified it. i think dave would agree with that.

rudy.

[mvandor]

dave bushing has posted some comments on mearsonline.com regarding this entire issue. good to see dave reading and, in a roundabout way, participating in the forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/471414/thread/1242976484/last-1243352278/lebron+jerseys

"If the Pro Cut / Game issued shirts are identical to those worn by the players,.. how is MEARS, once submitted such a jersey with no story (substainable) as to how the shirt was obtained, supposed to make the call between pro cut and game issued since, for this excercise, are identical..".

the entire idea relies entirely on pro cuts and legit game-issues being identical. truthfully, i don't know if they are identical in every single aspect and in this particular case, since MEARS has never handled a meigray/NBA sourced lebron jersey, apparently they wouldn't know if they're identical to procuts either. i'm sure the issue differs across manufacturers and teams as well.

when a manufacturer makes a procut i'm inclined to think they know it's not going to be shipped to the player. this may result in differences from jerseys that they know are being shipped to teams.

"As to the size issue, one picture of a size 50 does not preclude a size bigger or smaller having never been issued."

it doesn't preclude it but it also doesn't verify it as being correct, which is exactly what MEARS claims is necessary for an A5. when troy detailed what was necessary for an A5, he didn't say "an acceptable range of sizes that the player may have possibly worn". he said the size had to be correct.

secondly, while i agree that it's possible james may have worn a 52, the proof of him wearing a 50 is hardly relegated to "one picture". barry meisel has accounted for 4 shirts from 3 separate seasons:

- 2005-06 regular season
- 2006-07 Hardwood Classics
- 2007 NBA Finals Game 3
- 2007-08 China Games

all of them a 50+2.

anyway, i agree with dave's overall sentiment that in some cases, differentiating between pro-cut and gamer can be very difficult. the thing is, i think saying that pro-cuts are completely identical (in every single aspect) to real game-issues is conjecture unless there's been an actual comparison done. i think the general notion of a procut varies too much across years, teams, players, and manufacturers to simply say that all procuts, from all sports, teams, manufacturers, etc are exactly like their game-issued counterparts.

my original point behind this thread was not to say that MEARS A5'd a retail shirt. it also wasn't to somehow assert that lebron never ever wore a 52. i have no way of knowing whether he ever did. rather, it was to point out that MEARS is telling customers that they verify sizes when in fact they do not. it creates a misleading impression for everyone. MEARS states that their intent is to give collectors the information they need to evalulate an item and decide for themselves. well, when MEARS states they've verified the size and they tell collectors this then collectors are going to believe it and take it into consideration in their evaluations. so when a 52+4 lebron A5 jersey pops up, collectors are going to think that MEARS has somehow verified that lebron did indeed wear 52+4s. truthfully, MEARS doesn't know if he ever did.
troy points to the "fine print" of size variances but it contradicts his other statement that sizes are verified as being correct; that in order to earn an A5 the size must be correct.

if i was purchasing a bat from dave bushing and i asked dave if he verified that the length was correct and he indicated he had, it would be a pretty serious problem if in fact he hadn't verified it. i think dave would agree with that.

rudy.
Some things in life are simple. Did MEARS have ONE pic of L.J. wearing a 52????

If not, they should have refused to authenticate under THEIR standards.

No?

[aeneas01]

my original point behind this thread was not to say that MEARS A5'd a retail shirt. it also wasn't to somehow assert that lebron never ever wore a 52. i have no way of knowing whether he ever did. rather, it was to point out that MEARS is telling customers that they verify sizes when in fact they do not. it creates a misleading impression for everyone. MEARS states that their intent is to give collectors the information they need to evalulate an item and decide for themselves. well, when MEARS states they've verified the size and they tell collectors this then collectors are going to believe it and take it into consideration in their evaluations. so when a 52+4 lebron A5 jersey pops up, collectors are going to think that MEARS has somehow verified that lebron did indeed wear 52+4s. truthfully, MEARS doesn't know if he ever did. troy points to the "fine print" of size variances but it contradicts his other statement that sizes are verified as being correct; that in order to earn an A5 the size must be correct.

here are a few a5 shirts that have sold at auction during the last three years which, according to mears i presume, were checked for size accuracy, etc... btw, doesn't a $1,400 average price seem somewhat high for a shirt that may have never seen a teams' locker room?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/prices001.png

here's a look at some lebron jerseys that have sold at auction during the last three years. given "josportsco (jarrod?)" recent post, the sheer number of these jerseys is staggering, even if some in the list are the same shirts resold. and, of course, this list only includes a few auction outlets... how about that average price of $2,800? what do jersey-joe's shirts go for, $600?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/prices002.png

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/prices003.png

...

[kingjammy24]

UDA/steve berg get in on the action: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220415701696

the UDA cert makes no mention of it being a "finals issued game jersey" and oddly, calls it a "customer inventory lebron james jersey". i have no clue what a "customer inventory" jersey is. is it a jersey that customer submitted to be signed by lebron?

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

dave bushing: http://www.network54.com/Forum/471414/thread/1242976484/last-1243394561/lebron+jerseys

"I think everyone would agree that MEARS makes the point of an A5 being properly tagged not for general retail use with no claim or proof that said shirt was ever within 100 miles of said player, simply that it is not a retail shirt."

i don't know what everyone else thinks. i think if you took 100 collectors who purchased A5 jerseys and asked them if they thought that the MEARS letter meant the item was likely a gamer, you'd find the results pretty surprising. i know that when a MEARS A5 comes to auction and the typical auction description thats that no post-1987 shirt can attain higher than an A5 without provenance, many may easily think that, sans provenance, everything else about it points to it being a likely gamer. if you look at robert's price list, would people really pay a couple thousand dollars for a jersey where the only implication was "simply that it is not a retail shirt"?

what would the prices be if every A5 stated "MEARS makes no claim that this shirt was ever within 100 miles of the player"?

maybe collectors are assuming too much but the fact is that a) MEARS can't even be consistent within its own ranks as to whether the size is correct or not and b) the A5 covers everything from gamers to procuts.

"Should MEARS be more specific and if the size cannot be verified, list as such in the worksheet and would this constitute an even lower than A5 grade."

yes, yes, and yes. if you didn't verify the size, why would you say you have? as troy publically stated, an A5 must have a verified and correct size. but apparently it doesn't.

"And once this lower grade is issued and a verified example surfaces that supports the once unsupportable size, then should all of the letters be amended?"

yes. afterall, isn't that the very nature of this hobby (new info regularly being uncovered) and already MEARS policy (buybacks, letter re-issuance)? what's the better alternative? to not verify a size, state you've verified it, and mislead collectors? isn't MEARS all about transparency? if you don't know something, then say you don't know it. it's certainly more damaging than possibly re-issuing some letters a few years later.

everyone in this hobby understands that new things are constantly being learnt and uncovered. in that way, it's similar to some sciences. at some point, people realized the earth isn't flat so they went and re-wrote the books. certainly better than refusing to admit the earth is round simply to avoid re-writing some books. you can evaluate an item and a year later learn new details which would cause you to change your opinion of that item. no big deal.

"I think the end goal for everyone is to make sure that someone buying an A5 knows that ..at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations that might be found on a verified gamer.."

this completely contradicts troy's explanation of the A5. again:

"5. Correct size for player
...
10.We make sure the jersey was the proper size to be issued to that player

All of these manufacturers characteristics must be present before the A5 grade is considered for post 1987 jerseys.

Therefore, if the examined jersey does not match 100% correctly with all of the above, no A5 grade is awarded."

dave, now you're saying that MEARS admits that A5 owners may indeed not have correctly sized or correctly customized jerseys. troy is saying one thing, you're saying another. yet collectors are supposed to understand the A5? the 2 MEARS principals can't even agree on it!

".. there needs to be clearer language to avoid such issues in the future."

yes. unfortunately, there've been massive amounts of A5s already sold.

rudy.

[josportsco]

this is my exact point. Nice freak'n Lebron jerseys. It is criminal!! It is so frustrating and exhausting. Should the FBI look into this grading system that is obviously STUPID and does nothing except offer cut or issued jerseys as a jersey that comes with paperwork sold in a Game Used auction house. If something is labeled Game Jersey or Game Used Jersey in the title with paper work A5 etc. It basically give the notion that the jersey is used. Then you have to read the fine print on these COA's to find out: OH THIS JERSEY IS JUST A MODEL JERSEY WITH NO USE AND PROPER TAGGING. THAT IS WHY IT IS A5-7. This is so stupid. What needs to happen is get these authenticators/auction houses together and regulate this hobby. If you want to use a grading scale then A7 is the lowest.

[kingjammy24]

dave bushing: "..someone buying an A5 knows that at best , he has a perfect game style shirt with no verifiable provenance and at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations"

so let's say you have 2 jerseys. one is the correct size and has the correct customizations. the other is not the correct size and does not have the correct customizations. both can receive an A5?

what's the point then? if howard wolf has a 1991 jordan jersey, properly sized at 46 with a correct +3" of extra length, and i have a 1991 jordan jersey sized at 52 with 0" of extra length, both of us will receive an A5? i'd be very happy and howard would be pissed because in MEARS' eyes, both of our shirts are equal.

rudy.

[hblakewolf]

dave bushing: "..someone buying an A5 knows that at best , he has a perfect game style shirt with no verifiable provenance and at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations"

so let's say you have 2 jerseys. one is the correct size and has the correct customizations. the other is not the correct size and does not have the correct customizations. both can receive an A5?

what's the point then? if howard wolf has a 1991 jordan jersey, properly sized at 46 with a correct +3" of extra length, and i have a 1991 jordan jersey sized at 52 with 0" of extra length, both of us will receive an A5? i'd be very happy and howard would be pissed because in MEARS' eyes, both of our shirts are equal.

rudy.

Rudy-

I can tell you that this thread has left me shaking my head. I was under the belief that a post 1987 MEARS A5 graded shirt indicated that the jersey in question was worn by the noted player-period. Deduct points for restoration, missing tags, etc. I'd be curious to know who on this Forum had a different understanding of the A5 grading on post 1987 jerseys? I understand that pre-1987 jerseys can obtain a perfect A10, and likewise, points deducted for restoration, etc.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@comcast.net

[zonker]

dave bushing: "..someone buying an A5 knows that at best , he has a perfect game style shirt with no verifiable provenance and at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations i will have to say that this in not a true statement on a jersey receiving an A-5 rating. befor someone deletes my post about my comment on how i know this isn't a true statement. i have proof if the moderator's need to see. as far as why troy say's he noted on my l.o.o. pro-cut here's his responce: The debate between pro-cut and game issued is based on a few subtlties. A game issued jersey was one that was sent to the team. A pro cut was one that was manufactured for promotional purposed, and was direct marketed and not sent to the team. These terms have expanded in recent years as the leagues, teams, players marketing reps, etc, have access to jerseys and distribute them in non-traditional forms than in the past. When MEARS examines a jersey, and we specifically know the jersey was a pro-cut only, we designate it in our title. so my question to troy was how did he know that my jersey was pro-cut with verifiable use as not given to the jersey by the player? and since mine was not produced in recent years. mine is 13 yrs old. no response to my question as of now. i hope someone will clear-up my confusion and apparently everyone else's. i purchased all my jersey's with mears l.o.o. with the understanding the same as howard's! a-5 meant game used with no provinance to receive an higher grade. correct me if i'm wrong but isn't the point of mears grading system as written across the top of all there l.o.o. FINAL GRADE WITH RESPECT TO "CHARACTERISTICS" AND "GAME USE" ?

[zonker]

i guess i may have been a little unclear of what my question was. if mears knew my jersey i bought wasn't a game issued or used with a a-5 rating. why was it even graded or given an a-5 rating?

[aeneas01]

one thing i've always found confusing about the A5 is that on one hand mears states that they aren't saying the item was game-worn but they then go on to describe the wear. "exhibits wear..but we're not saying it was game-worn". brilliant.

no doubt zonker. below is an "a5" lebron jersey that sold at rea... is there anything stated in the lot description that could possibly lead a collector to believe that the jersey was something other than an authentic game shirt once belonging to lebron? could the alluring description and tidbits of information offered in the lot description possibly be construed as anything other than a vote of authenticity? i'm sorry but pointing to the fact that "game issued" or "game worn" wasn't employed in the lot title doesn't fly imo nor does pointing to a "lowly" a5 grade. not when terms such as "displays light use" are used and the a5 grade is followed by "no post 1987 jersey can achieve a higher grade than a5..." (btw, is it just me or can others see how that little a5 disclosure could easily come across as meaning the lot was awarded the highest possible grade, 5 out of 5, given the other grade scale can't be used without paper work?).

zonker, you mentioned that you've found the use of a5 grading confusing - well it seems that you are not alone given that 21 of the 22 a5 items i listed in my previous post (a5 lots sold at auction during the last three years) were described as "game used" or "game worn" by the auction houses that listed them. either all of these auction houses were trying to pull a fast one or it's pretty apparent that the "a5 model" is broken, i'm thinking the latter. btw, the only auction house listed above that didn't use the term "game used" or "game worn" to describe their a5 piece was hunt - instead they described it as follows (hmmmm...):

"2001 Randy Johnson Arizona Diamondbacks home jersey. Pinstriped home knit jersey with "A" logo on front and "Johnson" on the back above #51. Tail front has Rawlings tagging with "Set 2 2001" flag tag, 5" extra length tag, and size 52 flag tag. Shirt exhibits light use and wash wear. Fine example dating to Johnson's Cy Young and World Series Co-MVP season. Includes LOA from MEARS Authentication (Graded A5): EX-MT"

the a5 lebron jersey sold at rea:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/rea01.jpg


the more i think about this a5 nonsense the more i wonder if i'm not simply missing out on the perfect stay at home job for my mrs. she could arrange a bulk buy from jersey joe (you know, get him to come down on his pricing a bit on about 50 shirts), have jersey joe send the bulk purchase directly to mears for a5 grades and then have mears ship the shirts directly to rea. what are we talking, a couple of phone calls, tops? 20 minutes on the tin cans? $500 shirts (i'm assuming the mrs. can get jj to swing a deal, she's pretty damn persuasive) flipped at an average price of $1,500-$2,500 each. not too shabby...

wait a minute - that could be just the tip of the work from home iceberg. heck, the mrs. could also broker a blockbuster deal between mears and ebay's gridiron authentics. i mean 'ol ga gets their hands on a ton of "game issue" lids that are just like what the pros wear, give or take some sizing issues on their tom brady lids (he sports an xl, ga only has large - but, hey, that's well within troy's variance schedule, no? if it isn't, we can just tell any budzinskis to prove brady never sported a large - problem solved!). the real beauty of this deal is that it doesn't matter one iota that there's already a ton of these ga "game issue" helmets in circulation. red flag? what red flag? heck, just look at the ocean of lebron shirts. i've hit gold....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/tb01-1.jpg

....

[ChrisCavalier]

here are a few a5 shirts that have sold at auction during the last three years which, according to mears i presume, were checked for size accuracy, etc... btw, doesn't a $1,400 average price seem somewhat high for a shirt that may have never seen a teams' locker room?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/prices001.png

here's a look at some lebron jerseys that have sold at auction during the last three years. given "josportsco (jarrod?)" recent post, the sheer number of these jerseys is staggering, even if some in the list are the same shirts resold. and, of course, this list only includes a few auction outlets... how about that average price of $2,800? what do jersey-joe's shirts go for, $600?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/prices002.png

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/prices003.png

...
Am I reading this correctly in that Vintage Authentics sold 27 "Game Used" LeBron James jerseys from March 2006 through March 2008?

[aeneas01]

Am I reading this correctly in that Vintage Authentics sold 27 "Game Used" LeBron James jerseys from March 2006 through March 2008?

yes - to the tune of $53,400 ($2,400 average per shirt). from that list, vintage alone accounts for close to half of the lebron jerseys moved during that period, almost twice what the other auctions moved combined. i guess if you want a lebron shirt, vintage is the place for you!

interestingly the same auction house, lelands, managed to fetch the two highest prices (by far) $11,300 and $9,800. heck, even one of their "low" sales ($3,600) was well above the sample average....

man, that sure is a lot of lebron shirts.
.....

[Mac670]

Man what a scam! the FBI dosen"t need to go to Nigeria and find them when they are here in the US. Hard working people getting taken from their hard earned cash. Man I'm overwelmed at the amount of these jerseys, someone needs to be prosecuted and accounted ffor. Mears need to also take a stand and give a better explanation. One person says something, the other says something else, but we both make money and get rich. WOW!

[Dewey2007]

For what it's worth there's a Lebron jersey on NBA Auctions right now with Meigray authentication. It's at around $2,500 right now. I guess we can sit back and see what the market bears for a legit Lebron.

Oh yeah, the size of the jersey is a 48 +4.

[sportscentury]

For what it's worth there's a Lebron jersey on NBA Auctions right now with Meigray authentication. It's at around $2,500 right now. I guess we can sit back and see what the market bears for a legit Lebron.

Oh yeah, the size of the jersey is a 48 +4.

That is not your typical LBJ gamer. It is the rare throwback style that was only worn during specified games, including the heavily promoted Cavs/Lakers game that the Lakers won on the road when Kobe had the flu (this was also the game LBJ signed his shoes before the game and played with dual-autographed shoes). It will go for big money, but we should not expect regular LeBron gamers to command the same kind of dough. Other than a rookie jersey, All Star jersey, or perhaps one of LBJ's jerseys from the 2007 Finals, I believe this would be the most desirable jersey to most LBJ collectors. See:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0ZxXVkkoZk

.

[sportscrazy13]

Anyone know if the auto GU LeBron shoes have been auctioned off yet?

[UDAbasketball]

Both the LeBron and Kobe game used shoes were sold within a week after the game. As the Product Manager for UDA I'd like to shed a little light on the thread. The Mears rating seems to be very confusing and vague at the very least. It is quite possible that LeBron has worn different sized jerseys throughout his career. We currently have 5 jerseys that came from LeBron himself this season. All are personally dated with the game in which he wore the jersey. We also have a handful of pro-cut jerseys in house and it is very difficult to discern the difference between the two. It seems to me that many A5 ratings are nothing more than pro-cut jerseys being passed off as "game used."

[kingjammy24]

hi, thanks very much for posting


..We currently have 5 jerseys that came from LeBron himself this season. All are personally dated with the game in which he wore the jersey.

what size are these jerseys?


We also have a handful of pro-cut jerseys in house..

where/how did you obtain the procuts? directly from the manufacturer or...?? what size are the procuts?


..it is very difficult to discern the difference between the two.

would it be at all possible to post pics of one of the legit gamers and one of the procuts? specifically, the inside of the jerseys showing the stitching of the back numbers and name? (turning the jersey inside out and showing how the stitching looks from the inside of the jersey).

thanks again,

rudy.

[sportscentury]

Both the LeBron and Kobe game used shoes were sold within a week after the game. As the Product Manager for UDA I'd like to shed a little light on the thread. The Mears rating seems to be very confusing and vague at the very least. It is quite possible that LeBron has worn different sized jerseys throughout his career. We currently have 5 jerseys that came from LeBron himself this season. All are personally dated with the game in which he wore the jersey. We also have a handful of pro-cut jerseys in house and it is very difficult to discern the difference between the two. It seems to me that many A5 ratings are nothing more than pro-cut jerseys being passed off as "game used."

Brian - thanks for this post. This is related to the other thread, as well, in which several of us discussed the degree to which LBJ himself may personally release his real game worn jerseys to the collecting market. There are definitely some real ones out there ... it sounds like you guys have several of them.

[sportscrazy13]

We currently have 5 jerseys that came from LeBron himself this season. All are personally dated with the game in which he wore the jersey.

What do you do with these jerseys? Send them out for redemption cards? Cut them up for memorabilia cards?

[UDAbasketball]

The jerseys we have in house were procurred directly from the Cavs and LeBron. The pro cuts are currently in the warehouse but I will work to get one shipped to me so I can post photos of real game used jerseys and pro cuts. All of our pro cuts come directly from the manufacturer. The size on all of the game used jerseys in house is 48 +4 (they are all from this year). Once again, this does not mean LeBron has not worn a different size jersey in the past. I think the photos posted earlier in this string prove that he has in fact switched sizes during his career. On the UDA side we will not be cutting these jerseys up but instead we will have LeBron sign them at the next session and will sell them as whole jerseys.

[jondris]

yes - to the tune of $53,400 ($2,400 average per shirt). from that list, vintage alone accounts for close to half of the lebron jerseys moved during that period, almost twice what the other auctions moved combined. i guess if you want a lebron shirt, vintage is the place for you!

interestingly the same auction house, lelands, managed to fetch the two highest prices (by far) $11,300 and $9,800. heck, even one of their "low" sales ($3,600) was well above the sample average....

man, that sure is a lot of lebron shirts.
.....


One can also come to the conclusion that Vintage does not get top dollar and is that cause most collectors know that its not real or is their another reason

[kingjammy24]

All of our pro cuts come directly from the manufacturer.

what size are your lebron procuts?

thanks again,

rudy.

[sportscrazy13]

On the UDA side we will not be cutting these jerseys up but instead we will have LeBron sign them at the next session and will sell them as whole jerseys.

Could you contact me at gashlockusmc@yahoo.com

I have a few questions about the LeBron gamers and purchase of one if possible.

[aeneas01]

before i respond to dave bushing's post at the mears site (bulletin board) regarding what i've said here, i want to reiterate/quote the very valid concerns rudy (kngjammy24) has raised, the purpose of his/this thread...


mears A5 states that the jersey size must be correct... saying it might possibly be correct isn't the same thing is it being correct... when troy said that one of the criteria for the A5 is that mears "makes sure that the size was issued to the player", this is simply not true. mears does not make sure the size was issued to the player. they say they do, but they don't. how did mears make sure a 52+4 was issued to james? they didn't... this has nothing to do with opinions. it has to do with doing what you say and saying what you do. if a man says he'll do a certain task and you pay him to do that task then shouldn't he do it? mears says they do things that they simply do not do. this is not my opinion, it's fact... various items evaluated by mears were said to have been stylematched. they were not. in the least. this is not a case of not liking their opinion. it's a case of paying mears to do a job that they say they did but really didn't.

dave bushing: "I would challenge Robert to do a graph of properly advetised and sold MEARS A5 jerseys and given this discussion is really about understanding the A5 grade, I am not quite sure why Lou Lampson graded Labron James jerseys, those graded game used by him and advertised as such are part of the A5 discussion."

first, it's impossible to compile a list that shows "properly advertised... mears a5 jerseys" because auction houses sell them as "game used" or "game worn", simple as that. and in the rare instance "game used" isn't included in the lot title (hunt auction, randy johnson for example), there's little doubt the item is being presented as a gamer once the lot description is read. second, the reason i brought up the other lebron jerseys (jerseys mears had nothing to do with) was to illustrate the ocean of lebron jerseys of this type that are in circulation, that have been sold at auction - something which i would think mears would take into consideration when grading lebron shirts.

dave bushing: "Is it then the A5 grade that is confusing or the easily misued GAME WORN / GAME USED phrase that auction houses apply to their title when in fact, this claim was never used or applied by MEARS. Sounds to me like a truth in advertising... Oh, and now MEARS is responsible if an auction house or dealer disregards our grade and labels a shirt something we never said it was or as Robert suggests, they are so confused as to why we called it an A5 that they simply title the piece game worn/used because we confused them. Auction houses that for four years after crafting the A5 language simply don't understand and when you don't understand it and it has a MEARS loa, then simply put game used in the title."

21 of the 22 shirts that i previously listed with an a5 mears grade were sold as "game used" by auction houses - the single shirt that wasn't strongly implied as much in the lot description. forum members, upper deck, collectors, etc. have all said that the a5 grade is very misleading, very confusing. but dave feels the a5 grade is crystal clear and that auction houses are obviously falsely advertising. maybe dave's right. but if he is it brings up an interesting question: why would mears continue to allow auction houses to sell a5 items (backed with a mears letter) as "game used"? i mean it's not as if this is a recent development, it's been going on for years. why not a cease and desist? especially considering the grief (and arguably damage) it causes mears?

dave bushing: "If MEARS does a letter that says "cannot authenticate, index bat, store model, A1, Pro Cut, or Piece of crap" , just claim you don't understand, it is all too confusing, and label it game worn/used. If you are wrong and called to the carpet, simply blame MEARS complicated grading system."

so dave's argument is if mears wrote letters stating items could not be authenticated, were a store models and/or were a pieces of crap it would cause the same confusion as a mears' a5 grade and that mears would still be called to the carpet. o.k.

dave bushing: "Funny but the grade is attacked yet questioning the procedure behind all of the game worn or game used (non MEARS A5) labeled jerseys remains unsung. No outrage, no demand as to what legitimized these jerseys as to why they command so much more money than REA's A5, no demand to see who owned them, who consigned them, where they were obtained, is there provenance to warrent the title game worn/used, what size exemplars did they use, NOTHING. I could buy MEARS being constantly under the microscope of Robert and Rudy with the coinsidental thread started on the night MEARS auction opened, it just amazes me that this microscope becomes a blindfold for others. Fair and balanced as Fox news says."

this strikes me as rather paranoid on so many levels. first, i for one had no idea this thread was started on the same night as a mears' auction - however it does seem to me that most discussions at guf are started once an auction is about to begin, ask grey flannel. second, 99.9% of this board's discussions focus on exactly what dave claims is "unsung" and plenty of outrage is always expressed. further, i would say mears makes up such a minute portion of the board's discussions that i don't know how dave's comments could be taken as other than paranoid. rather than pretend that this board, or rudy and i for that matter, spend most of its time attacking mears i would think mears would seize on this opportunity to carefully and specifically address these very valid concerns.

dave bushing: "Heck, MEARS is making a ton of cashola grading these shirts, never mind that the cost of a post 87 is the same whether it is a A5 or an A10."

interesting comment - i wonder if more a5 items exist or more a10 items?

dave bushing: "Why would MEARS give up grading A5's as is suggested by Robert & Rudy when it is a virtual cash cow, so much so that Mrs Robert may become our stiffest competition."

dave misunderstood. the mrs. wouldn't be mears' stiffest competition, she would be mears' partner - couldn't make it work without the a5 letter. as far as why mears should give up a5 grading is concerned, i think it's a good idea for many reasons but i'll just name a few: first, mears is an authentication service which, and i may be wrong here, seems to imply that mears authenticates game used, game worn or team issued items. not pro cuts, not exact replicas. but items they believe were sent to a team or given to a player for game use. second, i consider any grading system that allows for an authentic item sent to a team or given to a player for game use to be graded the same an item that never saw a team's locker room to be very broken.

dave bushing: "It is so much harder to only grade, authenticate, and offer a money back guarentee on mistakes for your own items rather than having the easy high paying job of offering this service to others and maybe having to give back thousands of dollars for a piece you did for $50 bucks. Yep, I agree, shouldn't grade or authenticate A5's or A7's or A10's or million dollar Babe Ruth jerseys. Hate to get one of those wrong, hard enough to have to buy back a $260 Portland Beavers jersey. Sure would hate to be a dealer or auction house that authenticates and/or grades only their own merchandise and let the chat rooms decide on everything else. What is even better is that maybe MEARS can start authenticating Ruth, Gehrig and Cobb jerseys on line without having to deal with all that pesky shipping."

sorry, but i just don't follow what dave's trying to say here. but given that guarantee and giving back money was mentioned, there's something that i've wanted to mention for quite some time: mears' money back guarantee. while i think this is a great policy, i don't see how exactly it differs from most other auction house policies. as i understand it, mears' policy begins and ends with whether or not they agree with an unhappy customer's (and/or a third party's) assessment of the item. in short, mears' policy is far from a "no questions asked, money back guarantee" - if you can prove to mears that they were wrong in their evaluation, and (this is important) they accept your position, then i'm sure a refund would be forthcoming. but if mears doesn't agree with your assessment or that of a third party, you're out of luck. so why is that different than what most auction houses offer? it's been my experience that auction houses will provide a refund if you can prove an item wasn't as advertised, despite their "all sales final" disclaimers.

dave bushing: "Why the need to refine verbage of a misunderstood grade can be argued, it is still a MEARS policy that is not forced on anyone, if you don't like it or understand it or disagree with it, that is fine, you don't have to..."

alas, the 'ol "if you don't like it, don't buy it, move on" spiel. frankly, i'm cool with that. but such sentiments don't preclude collectors from voicing their concerns. and my concern is that attempting to grade game used items, team issued items or any items that were sent to a team for game use is wrought with problems and an absurd model. the trading card template simply does not work with garments/equipment.

here's a perfect example. a collector is currently going back and forth with mears over a john elway jersey gamer. patrick from endzone sports wrote a letter attesting to its authenticty, imo a better endorsement does not exist. it was then given to mears who graded it an a8 because handwarmers were added. the collector publicly praised mears for the a8 thinking, combined with patrick's letter, he was in for a nice payday. and why wouldn't he? but rob lifson decided to run the jersey without "game used" in the lot title, pretty much how rea runs a5 shirts. and the jersey ended up selling for a small fraction of what one might expect from an elway gamer. while troy said he couldn't speak for rea, he responded to the collector's understandable dismay as follows:

"The staff at REA was not comfortable calling the Elway game worn based on the undocumented addition of the Elway handwarmer. Rob Lifson has a long history of added caution when listing items..."

the problem is rea didn't exercise "added caution" with the following a8, from dave's and troy's personal collection/inventory - it was listed with "game used" clearly included in the lot title despite a roughly similar situation as with the elway jersey. the elway is a 1992 jersey with handwarmers added the following year. the kluszewski is a 1959 jersey with a nameplate added the following year. the addition of handwarmers to a qb's jersey was typical and from all appearances was team done. the addition of nameplates was typical and from all appearances was team done.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/rl02.jpg

even this a6 was listed with "game used" clearly included in the lot title:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/rl01.jpg

and, of course there was the jim brown jersey, owned by dave bushing, which was awarded an a10 despite not being in what most football fans and football jersey collectors would consider typical jim brown condition. in fact one could argue that is didn't even meet mears' criteria for an a10 given the requirements specifically state: "Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position..." closeup game photos of jim brown make the perfect a10 grade even more difficult to understand given the light-weight auction shirt featured no team repairs and only "moderate" use:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jimmyb.jpg

for the record, i'm not accusing mears of anything here, and certainly not rea - i'm just pointing out how ridiculous a grading system is when applied it to these sort of items, game items. take the jim brown jersey - how could any authentic jim brown gamer possibly be graded higher or lower than another? it's an authentic gamer. period. its rarity alone makes it extraordinarily valuable. how would one possibly grade the following items? you couldn't. any attempt would be absurd. yet some would try, as with trading cards:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/cool.jpg


and, finally, so dave doesn't lose any sleep over the amount of time spent "attacking" mears at this forum, here's a nice visual that i would say is pretty accurate:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/mearspie.jpg

...

[kingjammy24]

here's an interesting one: http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1412.html

it's a 1988 molitor jersey graded A8 and "..consigned to this auction directly from the personal collection/inventory of world-renowned bat and jersey authenticators David Bushing and/or Troy Kinunen". A5 + 3 points for "matching the characteristics of known Molitor game jerseys". ordinarily, "The highest grade a post-1987 jersey can obtain without team or player documentation, or verifiable provenance, or a combination of known distinct player specific traits is an A5."

so in this case, the molitor jersey apparently has some "known player characteristics" which warrant the 3 pt bump. what are the characteristics? the jersey doesn't seem to have any unique customizations. the only thing i can see is the statement on the LOO that "All known Molitor jerseys from this era are size 42".
correct size qualifies for a 3 pt bump over and above the A5 which troy said has to be of the correct size anyway? wait a minute here. the A5 definition requires a jersey to be the correct size. if it weren't, it wouldn't even get an A5. that is, correct size is already built in to the A5.

typically, the 3 pts awarded for "known player characteristics" would be for:

"Up to 3 points awarded for the following (post-1987 only):

Customized sleeves
Tailoring of side panels
Shortened tails
Added crotch pieces
Team repairs
Extra length
Other team customizations"those are all unique customizations, the molitor jersey has none of them, and i don't see "correct size" being listed as an option.

secondly, if any post-1987 A5 jersey can have 3 pts added to it simply for being the correct size then why didn't MEARS add 3 pts to all of the 50+2 A5 lebron jerseys they've evaluated?

as dave bushing said: "Given that 33 of the A5 jerseys were size 50 and 7 were size 52 which if I do my math right is just over 75% of those examined were true to documented game worn sizes". so a bushing & kinunen-owned molitor A5 gets 3 pts added to it simply for being the correct size yet 33 lebron A5 jerseys which are a photo-verified correct size 50 remain A5s and do not become A8s like troy and dave's molitor?

and again, this seems to yet another bushing & kinunen-owned jersey with a "..large circular stain (eight inches in diameter) that is visible on both the front and back" that has had 0 points removed, going against their own grading policy that specifies:

"½ to 5 points subtracted for the following (determined solely by authenticator):

Fading or staining (minor to abused)"i guess the authenticator didn't feel like removing even 1/2 pt for a "large, 8" stain visible on both front and back" on his own jersey.

given that the A5 already has the correct size built into it and the jersey had a large stain, it seems to me that it should've been graded A3-A4. i'm not sure an A3 '88 molitor would've sold for over $3800 though.

the best part? the stylematch of course! mears' strong point. according to the LOA, this 1988 molitor jersey has been stylematched to corbis image # U840524B. what is that image? it's a picture of rollie fingers taken in 1984. how's that for a stylematch? a 1988 jersey is verified to be the proper style from a 1984 photo. brilliant. apparently MEARS couldn't find any photos of the 1988 milwaukee brewers. especially fitting considering MEARS is located in milwaukee.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

robert,

here's an A6, titled "game used", with a completely restored team name and back number:

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1354.html

there are multiple sub-A9 items that REA has run with "game used/worn" titles.

anyway, re: david archibald's elway jersey issues with MEARS/REA:

i don't know what rob lifson said. i do know that rob always tries to err on the side of caution. i think he genuinely wants his bidders to know all sides to all of the lots he offers regardless of the impact on hammer price. i also know that rob isn't a game-used guy. his interests lie in vintage baseball cards and ephemera. so when MEARS says that rob wasn't comfortable running a '92 elway because of handwarmers, you can be fairly certain it's not rob who came to that conclusion on his own. rob could've only come to it via input and "advice" from MEARS. it was MEARS who was uncomfortable with it and rob likely ran with their "insight" because he depends on their expertise in game-used items.

rob was comfortable running a completely restored 1936 yankees shirt as "game used" but not a '92 elway because of handwarmers? like rob is a vintage yankee flannels expert who also dabbles in 90s era elway gamers? come on. it's a little disingenious for troy to say that "The staff at REA was not comfortable calling the Elway game worn based on the undocumented addition of the Elway handwarmer". the REA staff likely had no opinion on the handwarmer and probably weren't comfortable calling it "game worn" entirely based what MEARS told them.

that said, i would like to see the scoggins letter on the piece to see if patrick somehow explained the handwarmer. i'm curious why REA didn't run the ESC letter.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

so that MEARS doesn't feel as if it's being unfairly singled out, here's a nice one:

http://www.vintageauthentics.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=105276039&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=105622749

54+4! lou gives it a 9.5 on the lampson-o-meter.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

the best part? the stylematch of course! mears' strong point. according to the LOA, this 1988 molitor jersey has been stylematched to corbis image # U840524B. what is that image? it's a picture of rollie fingers taken in 1984. how's that for a stylematch? a 1988 jersey is verified to be the proper style from a 1984 photo. brilliant. apparently MEARS couldn't find any photos of the 1988 milwaukee brewers. especially fitting considering MEARS is located in milwaukee.

amazing. you would think that if mears was unable to find a decent shot of molitor to use for their stylematch (which is indeed rather scary), they would have at least picked a photo of a brewers player sporting the same style of jersey as offered in the auction, a post-1985/6 jersey with the "rawlings" logo embroidered on the right sleeve.

in fact the 1984 photo of rollie fingers that mears decided to use for their "stylematch" is quite different than the shirt sold in the rea auction given that brewers shirts from that era appeared to be made of a different fabric, didn't have the rawlings logo on the sleeve, the tip of the "v" collar was reinforced with a horizontal stitch and the center pinstripe aligned perfectly with the tip of the collar's "v" - none of which is consistent with the auction shirt. btw, as a guy that doesn't collect jerseys, i found it interesting/impressive that so much attention to detail was paid to assembling pre-1987 brewers shirts given that photo after photo shows the center pinstripe aligned perfectly with the collar's "v" - just couldn't be a coincidence, could it?

from left to right: the sans rawlings logo corbis image of fingers (1984) mears used, a corbis image of molitor from roughly the same era (i guess mears didn't come across this shot or they didn't want to use it because there's no number on the shirt), the pre-1986/7 reinforced collar and perfectly aligned center pinstripe and, to the right of the red line, two shots of the auction jersey (btw, what's up with the "fringe" around the auction collar?)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zmolitor2.jpg



here's an interesting one: http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/...2008/1412.html (http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1412.html)

it's a 1988 molitor jersey graded A8 and "..consigned to this auction directly from the personal collection/inventory of world-renowned bat and jersey authenticators David Bushing and/or Troy Kinunen". A5 + 3 points for "matching the characteristics of known Molitor game jerseys". ordinarily, "The highest grade a post-1987 jersey can obtain without team or player documentation, or verifiable provenance, or a combination of known distinct player specific traits is an A5."

so in this case, the molitor jersey apparently has some "known player characteristics" which warrant the 3 pt bump. what are the characteristics? the jersey doesn't seem to have any unique customizations. the only thing i can see is the statement on the LOO that "All known Molitor jerseys from this era are size 42".
correct size qualifies for a 3 pt bump over and above the A5 which troy said has to be of the correct size anyway? wait a minute here. the A5 definition requires a jersey to be the correct size. if it weren't, it wouldn't even get an A5. that is, correct size is already built in to the A5.

typically, the 3 pts awarded for "known player characteristics" would be for:

"Up to 3 points awarded for the following (post-1987 only):
Customized sleeves
Tailoring of side panels
Shortened tails
Added crotch pieces
Team repairs
Extra length
Other team customizations"those are all unique customizations, the molitor jersey has none of them, and i don't see "correct size" being listed as an option.

secondly, if any post-1987 A5 jersey can have 3 pts added to it simply for being the correct size then why didn't MEARS add 3 pts to all of the 50+2 A5 lebron jerseys they've evaluated?

as dave bushing said: "Given that 33 of the A5 jerseys were size 50 and 7 were size 52 which if I do my math right is just over 75% of those examined were true to documented game worn sizes". so a bushing & kinunen-owned molitor A5 gets 3 pts added to it simply for being the correct size yet 33 lebron A5 jerseys which are a photo-verified correct size 50 remain A5s and do not become A8s like troy and dave's molitor?

and again, this seems to yet another bushing & kinunen-owned jersey with a "..large circular stain (eight inches in diameter) that is visible on both the front and back" that has had 0 points removed, going against their own grading policy that specifies:

"½ to 5 points subtracted for the following (determined solely by authenticator):
Fading or staining (minor to abused)"i guess the authenticator didn't feel like removing even 1/2 pt for a "large, 8" stain visible on both front and back" on his own jersey.

given that the A5 already has the correct size built into it and the jersey had a large stain, it seems to me that it should've been graded A3-A4. i'm not sure an A3 '88 molitor would've sold for over $3800 though.

you know rudy, i really hope that forum members and forum visitors give this portion of your post a careful read given that it clearly illustrates the truly subjective nature (and ultimately inherently flawed nature) of mears' grading system.

btw what's also interesting about the molitor a8 grade is that it shows that a post-87 item can achieve this grade via one of two avenues: the item can start as an a5 (no provenance) and can be awarded additional points or it can start as an a10 (with provenance) and be deducted points (elway jersey). this of course creates a situation where an item with zero provenance can trump a shirt with "rock solid" provenance (an a5 awarded 3 points earns an a8 , while an a10 that's deducted 3 points earns an a7 - sign me up for this!).

...

[kingjammy24]

..in fact the 1984 photo of rollie fingers that mears decided to use for their "stylematch" is quite different than the shirt sold in the rea auction...

the 1988 REA shirt was made by rawlings. the shirt in the 1984 "stylematch" was made by sand-knit. doesn't everyone stylematch rawlings shirts from pics of sandknit jerseys four years prior?

it just seems like every other MEARS "stylematch" shows that MEARS spent zero time and effort finding an actual stylematch. it's disturbing on many levels. mainly because a proper stylematch builds the foundation for any sort of authentication. it's also disturbing because dave grob has railed numerous times against others doing sloppy photomatching yet his own firm leads the league in sloppy stylematching.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

the 1988 REA shirt was made by rawlings. the shirt in the 1984 "stylematch" was made by sand-knit. doesn't everyone stylematch rawlings shirts from pics of sandknit jerseys four years prior?

it just seems like every other MEARS "stylematch" shows that MEARS spent zero time and effort finding an actual stylematch. it's disturbing on many levels. mainly because a proper stylematch builds the foundation for any sort of authentication. it's also disturbing because dave grob has railed numerous times against others doing sloppy photomatching yet his own firm leads the league in sloppy stylematching.

yet, ironically, dave grob has written many interesting pieces regarding the importance of "imagery analysis" - one has to wonder what relevance a reference to a jersey manufactured by a different company, 4 years removed from the shirt in question, has to do with the imagery analysis process.

if i were a paid authenticator hired to offer my opinion on a terry bradshaw clear shell gamer up for auction (right photo), would it be understandable/acceptable if i referenced the photo on the left as an example of a stylematch - a photo of an entirely different player, wearing and entirely different helmet model, from an entirely different season? isn't this exactly what mears did in this case, or am i missing something?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sm01-1.jpg

given the many mears "stylematch" snafus that have been discussed (and i can only wonder what would be revealed if mears opened up their letters with stylematch references to public scrutiny), i think it's fair to ask mears exactly what there is about these photo references they find relevant to the authentication process. or is this just a matter of sloppy work, perhaps untrained personnel, or a recurring disregard for details with the assumption that the fine print (read photo references) will go unnoticed?

i'm reminded of a barry bonds "stylematch" where mears referenced a photo showing bonds wearing a completely different jersey - different manufacturer, different shoulder/sleeve seams (the photo showed set-in sleeves while the auction jersey was a butterfly seam). i mention this in light of a dave grob article on "iimagery analysis" that i came across - in part:

"For set-in sleeves, pay attention to how the jersey in the picture is constructed. By this I mean that is the front half of the jersey fabric sewn over the rear half or is the rear half sewn over the front half. This subtle detail can provide insights as to who manufactured the jersey... you may be dealing with a salesman sample from another manufacturer as these are frequently made up for a teams star player of the day."

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2061&highlight=%22imagery+analysis%22

wow.

regarding a5 shirts and post-'87 shirts - as i mentioned in a previous post, a collector submitted an elway gamer to mears which mears considered an a10 due to provenance and other attributes, but graded it an a8 due to two points being deducted for post game use alterations. the collector was subsequently upset that rea didn't list the shirt with "game used" in the title as he he felt this negatively impacted the final (very low) hammer price. taking a look at rea auctions for this year and all of 2008, i discovered that rea has never listed a post-'87 shirt with a grade below a10 as "game used" - apparently rea reserves the "game used" title for only post-'87 a10 shirts. something to consider when thinking about listing a sub a10 jersey with rea i would imagine - and something i would think rea would want to make clear to their consignors (assuming they already don't).

dave bushing recently wrote:

"If MEARS does a letter that says "cannot authenticate, index bat, store model, A1, Pro Cut, or Piece of crap" , just claim you don't understand, it is all too confusing, and label it game worn/used. If you are wrong and called to the carpet, simply blame MEARS complicated grading system."

as i mentioned before, i don't think there would be anything confusing about this sort of approach nor do i think mears would be "called to the carpet". but i do believe mears could expect the following type of results if they chose to describe some of their a5's more accurately as they did in this case:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/a501.jpg

btw i still can't wrap my head around this a5 thing - a shirt like the one above that clearly never saw barkley's back in a game, is graded the same as post-'87 authentic gamer without provenance. mama mia!

but, hey, as bushing says:

"I think the end goal for everyone is to make sure that someone buying an A5 knows that at best , he has a perfect game style shirt with no verifiable provenance and at worst, they have a shirt that matches all of the proper tagging as found on a verified gamer but might not have a verified size or some of the special customizations that might be found on a verified gamer but that they in no way can consider an A5 a documented game worn jersey."

actually that last part should read "...but that they in no way can consider an a5 a documented game worn or game issued jersey"...

...

[kingjammy24]

http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=651

"Lot #1412 In the REA Auction by Dave Grob
Below is the text of an e-mail sent to both Troy Kinunen and Rob Lifson earlier this week.

Gentlemen,

In my opinion, this jersey was not graded in accordance with our criteria and policies for post 1987 period stars or Hall of Famers. There are no customizations that are readily apparent on the jersey. In 1988, Rawlings did in fact record customizations with supplemental tagging for both body taper and length issues. As you can see from the image attached, this includes products provided to the Milwaukee Brewers.

The winning bidder needs to be contacted and informed of this and that unless I can be shown some compelling and objective reason why the jersey should warrant a grade other than A5, the letter currently written on the jersey is to be rescinded and the jersey is to be recorded as an A5 in the MEARS data base.

If the intent is to award +3 points based on "player characteristics," then those must be things that can be directly attributed to Paul Molitor in an objective and defendable manner. As such they are not things like general use and wear unless they are manifest on the jersey in a manner or pattern that is distinctive to Molitor.

Please know I will be making this e-mail and the images provided public. My intent is not to embarrass anyone, but I need to make sure this issue is not perceived as being ignored. Additionally, this is intended to provide public clarification as to how the grading criteria is to be addressed and implemented in the future.

I look forward to your cooperation in this matter. I will publish this note and images on Wednesday the 3rd of June in the MEARS Current News Section.

v/r

Dave"

i'd argue the piece should be an A4. A5 - 1 pt for the stain.

rudy.

[sportscentury]

Reid- Thanks for the suggestion about sending the jersey to MeiGray to see if they can photomatch it. I might just do that.

.

Reed, would you please send me scans of your KG? I'm trying to build a KG photo-library. I used to have tons of early KG scans but they were lost when my old computer died. Thank you. rgf2@hotmail.com

[Texans]

so that MEARS doesn't feel as if it's being unfairly singled out, here's a nice one:

http://www.vintageauthentics.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=105276039&prmenbr=57735959&aunbr=105622749

54+4! lou gives it a 9.5 on the lampson-o-meter.

rudy.



Wow a Lebron All Star Game Used Jersey for $1700. Thats a great deal. lol


Jojo

[sportscentury]

Wow a Lebron All Star Game Used Jersey for $1700. Thats a great deal. lol


Jojo

The real one is a $15,000-20,000 jersey. Not as bad as their recent Drexler debacle, though, which had tags that read "Game Issued" and "Not Good." It really doesn't get funnier than that!

[airmaximus]

As its been over 3 years since James has worn a Cavs jersey, does anyone have a definitive guide to his game issued sizes during that era? Reading through the thread 50+4 was his most common size. An Upper Deck member stated they had some 48+4 sizes although I have never seen one.

The size most in question was 52+4 as that factory pro cut size could be purchased back then. After doing some research it seems UDA sold a handful of 2006-07 and 2008-09 size 52+4 "game issued" jerseys with his signature. I have included some pics of these below. You can also lookup the following serial numbers: BAK13090, BAK13093, BAK13094, BAK13095 at http://sports.upperdeck.com/memorabilia/hologram_lookup.aspx

I also know that UDA sold 50 2008-09 size 50+4 factory pro-cuts with the tags still attached and an "MVP" inscription.

[mbrieve]

I read this article on Upper Deck recently, and it gave me a whole new view on the company:

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2013/07/19/the-hobby-the-rise-and-fall-of-upper-deck/?source=right-rail-article

[mickeymbz]

I read this article on Upper Deck recently, and it gave me a whole new view on the company:

http://www.thebiglead.com/index.php/2013/07/19/the-hobby-the-rise-and-fall-of-upper-deck/?source=right-rail-article

whadda lousy way to go for McWilliams.

[airmaximus]

In an industry rampant with fraud, I guess you could call UDA the best of the worst when it came to authentication in those days.

What do we ultimately make of those 4 or 5 "game issued" size 52+4 jerseys? Photo evidence of him wearing a 52 would certainly help.

[mickeymbz]

In an industry rampant with fraud, I guess you could call UDA the best of the worst when it came to authentication in those days.

What do we ultimately make of those 4 or 5 "game issued" size 52+4 jerseys? Photo evidence of him wearing a 52 would certainly help.

lol,,, if you go by what "the bodyguard" said early on in the first 10 or so posts..."its up to you to prove he didn't wear size 52"... i thought a LOO was supposed to decrease insecurities over an item, not leaving the owner more baffled than prior to laying cash down for authentication. KingJam hit the nail on the head and it was spun to death by gobbly goop wording ..and the excuse that "mistakes happens" gets tiresome after used so often. i didnt know this thread existed,,interestingly the same issues raised a few months back concerning specific authenticators were raised for the very same reasons 4 or so years prior... with the same answer that should end the questioning.."mistakes happen".