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encinorick
05-08-2009, 01:41 PM
I don't believe that Manny's a cheat like the rest. I believe that Manny is what Manny does, which usually comes down to doing stupid things.

I have a collection of single-signed 500 HR balls (w/o Ruth, Ott, and Foxx) for my son, 22 in all, and there's two catagories, cheaters and non-cheaters. I have 6 in the cheaters (you can guess who they are), but, refuse to put Manny with the cheaters.

I'll even buy a Manny bat for the boy, if you show it here and it's legit.

I bleed Blue, my tears are Manny blue-tears.

2009 World Series

Dodgers v. Jays, Dodger sweep, Manny hits 4 homers in game 4. :p

NEFAN
05-08-2009, 01:45 PM
I'm sick of hearing the whole "Manny being Manny thing" as an excuse for his selfish attitude. It will wear thin in LA just like every where else. He's a cheater just like the rest of them.

gameu08
05-08-2009, 01:46 PM
here is my earlier manny bat from boston gamer. Purchased from vintagebats.com.

encinorick
05-08-2009, 01:59 PM
Yeah, yeah, sure, sure. I'll put money on him! I'll buy my soon to be 9 year old son this very Manny bat if everyone agrees it's legit, and I wouldn't do it if I didn't think Manny was a good guy, someone who isn't a lying, self-important no talent.

Is this thing legit? 'Cause I'll buy the damn thing!:D

cjclong
05-08-2009, 02:03 PM
So if you are doing something stupid you are not cheating? Then by definition any player who used steroids after steroid testing was put in place was not cheating because getting caught at this point is clearly stupid. Its one thing to continue to like a player who has used or is believed to use steroids as I do several. But its another to say if a guy acts like a jackass you don't hold him responsible.

encinorick
05-08-2009, 03:01 PM
Like I said I have a 8 year old son. He does stupid things, many of his friends do stupid things, doesn't mean I don't love him. Being stupid and being a cheat are two things. Manny has been tested at least 15 times without incident.

I'm serious, raiders, if this bat is legit, I'll buy it. Someone tell me this thing is legit, and I'll buy it. I don't want to be cheated, which is why I believe Manny. :eek:

nationals2k9
05-08-2009, 03:08 PM
Am I crazy, if for nothing more than representing the other side here, for thinking for a minute that Manny indeed was given this drug by a physician for a real personal problem? And not only that, but that he has the rare personality type that he'd rather take the 50 games and lay low and be lazy than he would fight it and find himself in the middle of another media circus?

Although this drug is commonly used to mask steroid use, it has indeed been used for other issues. And it makes all the sense in the world that it was givent to him from a doctor in Florida... the same place all of his family and friends reside. If you had a "personal problem" and were a classically introverted personality as Manny is... would you run to the team doctor or open the LA phone book to fix your problem? For a guy that doesn't take trust lightly... do you trust your inner circle and attempt to fly under the radar or do you trust your new home some 3,000 miles away?

I'm not suggesting I believe he is not guilty of something mirroring traditional PED use... but I will be one of the few that gives this story it's fair share of time to play out.

nationals2k9
05-08-2009, 03:10 PM
I've got some pretty bats too and my ears are generally open...

cjclong
05-08-2009, 03:22 PM
IF Manny was using the drug to mask steroid use he was being a cheat. Other players have caught hell for using steroids BEFORE baseball banned it. Again, IF there was some explanation the burden is now on him to explain any innocent usage. You said you would love your son if he did something wrong. GREAT! You should. But if your son stole something at 8 he is old enough to know he stole it and would be guilty of stealing. You would still love him, but he would have done it. (I'm sure your son would never steal anything. Just using this as an example) And if you say Manny is immature like an 8 year old, Manny is an adult. What you seem to be saying is that he didn't do it, and if he did he is immature and so not responsible. That sounds like, if I'm an athlete the rules don't apply to me. Most of us are tired of that.

nationals2k9
05-08-2009, 03:24 PM
Regardless of the strong feelings yesterday and today... if this proves to be his lone run-in with the PED police and he contributes as the Dodgers make the playoffs, threatens 600hr and 2000rbi - he's still a first ballot HOF'er. He's obviously going to go down as one of the more crazy/interesting guys to ever play the game, but he's far from the Bonds and Clemens of the world in my opinion.

kingjammy24
05-08-2009, 03:26 PM
Being stupid and being a cheat are two things. Manny has been tested at least 15 times without incident.

not being caught simply means not being caught; it doesn't necessarily mean the person didn't commit the offense. there are substances that the MLB tests can't detect. and there's always a first time for everything..i don't think palmeiro juiced it early on. i don't think sosa was juicing it when he was with the rangers and weighing 168lbs. i don't think clemens was juicing it in the 80s. times and circumstances change.

anyway, i'm curious how you explain the HCG? manny being so stupid that he was actually trying to ovulate? its legitimate use is as a female fertility drug. i guess it happens to be a wacky coincidence that athletes happen to use it to "increase testosterone production. HCG is often used in combination with anabolic/androgenic steroids during or after treatment". also a nutty coincidence that "testerone from an artificial source" was found in ramirez's system.

if it was a sexual dysfunction, why not take the usual remedy, viagra/cialis, and get a theraputic use exemption from major league baseball?

rudy.

quiggle28
05-08-2009, 03:32 PM
is it true Manny sells his own game used jerseys with inscriptions dates but that the jersey doesn't photo match that specific date/game?

sylbry
05-08-2009, 03:33 PM
Marion Jones has never tested positive for steriods but still used them and admitted it.

I find it interesting how people rationalize cheating by likeable players while condeming cheating by the unlikeable ones. If we keeping score here Manny has failed more drug tests than Bonds but Bonds is still the posterboy for the steriod era. I guess a little good will goes a long way.

kingjammy24
05-08-2009, 03:33 PM
"Am I crazy, if for nothing more than representing the other side here, for thinking for a minute that Manny indeed was given this drug by a physician for a real personal problem?"

yes.

"And not only that, but that he has the rare personality type that he'd rather take the 50 games and lay low and be lazy than he would fight it and find himself in the middle of another media circus?"

again, yes. manny created a media circus by publically negotiating with the dodgers over cash. it was clear that if cash is on the line, he'll take as much of a media circus as it takes.

"Although this drug is commonly used to mask steroid use, it has indeed been used for other issues."

true, to encourage ovulation in women. if that's really what manny was using it for, then there are clearly bigger issues at play.

"If you had a "personal problem" and were a classically introverted personality as Manny is... would you run to the team doctor or open the LA phone book to fix your problem?"

implying what exactly? that if he had gone to the team doctor, the team doctor would've then issued a press release disclosing the entire thing?

"For a guy that doesn't take trust lightly... do you trust your inner circle and attempt to fly under the radar or do you trust your new home some 3,000 miles away?"

there's a probably a reason he didn't tell the team doctor and "flew under the radar" and i highly doubt it's because he really thought the team doctor would risk his livelihood and breach doctor/patient confidentiality.

none of what you're saying is making much sense. nice ramirez bat collection though.

rudy.

Rob L
05-08-2009, 03:39 PM
is it true Manny sells his own game used jerseys with inscriptions dates but that the jersey doesn't photo match that specific date/game?

Yep.

NEFAN
05-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Regardless of the strong feelings yesterday and today... if this proves to be his lone run-in with the PED police and he contributes as the Dodgers make the playoffs, threatens 600hr and 2000rbi - he's still a first ballot HOF'er. He's obviously going to go down as one of the more crazy/interesting guys to ever play the game, but he's far from the Bonds and Clemens of the world in my opinion.

This issue is already keeping people from the Hall of fame, 1st ballot at least. Manny won't care about the Hall of Fame as soon as he finds out there is no extra $$ in it for him.

encinorick
05-08-2009, 04:40 PM
Tell ya a story. I have friend (yes, I do have friends) who was at one of those second-rated sports fairs last year and some poor guys shows up with a Mark McGwire GU bat. He said he paid thousands for it and wanted to sell it for a couple hundred dollars. My friend said nope. I agreed. I could care less if it was GU or not, I don't believe that McGwire was a baseball player, he just hit home runs on steriods, that's it.

First, batter-up, someone tell me why raider's bat isn't real. I'm an idiot if I buy a GU Manny bat that isn't a GU Manny bat, but, if it's real, a Manny GU bat that's not cracked, I'll buy it. :p

kingjammy24
05-08-2009, 04:53 PM
If you had a "personal problem" and were a classically introverted personality as Manny is... would you run to the team doctor or open the LA phone book to fix your problem? For a guy that doesn't take trust lightly... do you trust your inner circle and attempt to fly under the radar or do you trust your new home some 3,000 miles away?

re: manny's new home
the LA medical community has long treated celebrities far more A-list than manny ramirez. manny is what passes for a celebrity in places like boston. in LA, not so much. i have a hard time seeing the dodgers team doctor running to TMZ or the enquirer because manny told him he couldn't get it up.

besides, why would the dodgers care if manny was having a sexual dysfunction? i can only understand players hiding two things: injuries and banned PED-use.

rudy.

corsairs22
05-08-2009, 05:32 PM
If Manny went to a doctor for some problem and the doctor prescribed a medicine that unexpectedly led to a positive on the steroid test (or if it showed up as a steroid masking agent), then the doctor would be responsible for misinforming Manny about the effects of the medicine and for jeopardizing Manny's career. If this really happened, Ramirez's reps would be screaming bloody murder and suing this doctor for billions. But Manny is keeping quiet--because there is no doctor to blame. This means that he is NOT hall of fame material.

suicide_squeeze
05-08-2009, 05:39 PM
Personally, I'm sickened by this whole fiasco.

Manny has got to be one of the stupidest athletes in the history of this world....

He has ruined this season for me. I'm sure I am not alone as a Dodger fan. Every time I think of what a fun year it was going to be, starting off with breaking a 98-yr. old record, and basically leaving all of the Western Divisional foes in a cloud of dust.....now THIS.

AGAIN.

ANOTHER PED ISSUE.


Geezuz....I have a headache, and I don't think I can stand to see the sight of that smiling dreadlocked face again. I just have no respect for a guy who can just hold his middle finger up in the face of society like this while he cheats to get ahead.

In fact, I'd like to see the Dodgers get their attorneys to sue Boras and his "client" and completely void out the two-year contract.

Screw Manny Ramirez. Yes, I'm pissed.

encinorick......I still can tell why you're being so giddy about this whole thing, and why you keep chanting on about a Manny bat. My suggestion to you is to buy your son a James Loney bat, or an Andre Ethier bat.

Forget this self-indulged money grubbing lying bastard.

cohibasmoker
05-08-2009, 06:09 PM
Has any forum member ever been tested for drugs by their employer? I have and it's a simple process. First, you fill out a form listing all of the medications you are currently taking as well as medications that you have taken within the past year. You sign the document and give the sample - well, you actually give two (2) samples.

The sample is sent out and analyzed. If the sample comes back "hot", your list of medications is checked to see if any of your medications, past or present, may have any compounds in them that could have caused the positive test. That's it.

I don't know if MLB has the same procedure (Providing a list of medications) or not but from what I do understand, the players are notified well in advance when they are being tested.

Jim

kingjammy24
05-08-2009, 06:25 PM
interesting article explaining more about HCG:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4150133

rudy.

encinorick
05-09-2009, 03:14 PM
Rudy: Tell me if Mike's Manny bat is legit, otherwise I'm gonna ask Lou Lampson. Seriously.

kingjammy24
05-09-2009, 08:53 PM
Rudy: Tell me if Mike's Manny bat is legit, otherwise I'm gonna ask Lou Lampson. Seriously.

lampson likely knows as much as i do about ramirez bats. unlike lampson however, i don't want to comment on things i know nothing about.

it seems this ramirez bat really has you in a lather. why not ask bobby/"gameused" for help? he has something like 2355 ramirez bats. make a new thread..call it "DESPERATELY SEEKING BOBBY". maybe he'll chime in.

rudy.

emann
05-09-2009, 10:39 PM
Rudy: Tell me if Mike's Manny bat is legit, otherwise I'm gonna ask Lou Lampson. Seriously.

Even though these posts are starting to feel like they're just made to draw out reactions, I'll bite...

Why are you doubting the authenticity of the bat? The seller bought it from Andy Benish who sells quality bats and is very reputable. It's a nice looking bat and shows good use, I'd buy it now if I didn't think Manny just destroyed his career, legacy and honor. He has been a plague on baseball for a few years now, all the while laughing to the bank as people like you keep supporting him. He's become lazy, angry, greedy and now caught cheating.

This was the last straw for me on Manny, I crossed him off my list of someone I'd want a gamer from. The arrogant way he carries himself is worse than McGwire, Sosa or Palmiero... He's in the land of Barry Bonds or Clemens now.

Neely8
05-10-2009, 12:10 AM
Will somebody sell this guy a friggin bat already??

David
05-10-2009, 01:14 AM
The medical consensus that I've read on the drug is that, for a man, it's most commonly used as part of steroids use. Specifically, the drug helps restore lost testosterone from steroid use. Thus, the positive test would be a sign on steroid use, perhaps over a lengthy period of time. There is also the primary use of the drug, for women and fertility, but obviously this would not apply to Ramirez.

Ramirez has said he got it from a physician, but has not named the physician, which is not a good sign.

Lastly, if Ramirez had a legitimate medical use he could have cleared it with MLB and they would have given permission to use it. There are players who have permission from MLB to use steroids and HGH due to real medical issues. Manny saying he had a legitimate medical use without having cleared it with MLB is zero excuse and dubious, because he could have, should have, and I would argue would have, cleared it with MLB if he had a legitimate and above board medical issue.

David
05-10-2009, 01:25 AM
One last point I'd like to make about PEDS and competition, which I think is an important and often overlooked concept. In the Olympics, an athlete is not allowed to complete if he is known to have PEDs in his system. It does not matter whether or not the athlete knowingly or unknowingly took the drugs. He can't compete, period. The reason is because the drugged athlete would have unfair advantage over the other athletes. If it is shown the athlete had his gatoratde spiked when he wasn't looking, he likely would escape punishent, but he still can't compete as the PED in his body would give him an unfair advantage.

In classic MLB thinking, in the first year of punishment, a player would be given a 15 (10?) game suspension for first time testing positive for steroids. However, even after dincontinuation, the postive effects of steroids lasts weeks to months. In other words, MLB allowed players to play who they knew had an unfair advantage due to steroids.

stretch
05-10-2009, 02:29 AM
I don't believe that Manny's a cheat like the rest. I believe that Manny is what Manny does, which usually comes down to doing stupid things.

I have a collection of single-signed 500 HR balls (w/o Ruth, Ott, and Foxx) for my son, 22 in all, and there's two catagories, cheaters and non-cheaters. I have 6 in the cheaters (you can guess who they are), but, refuse to put Manny with the cheaters.

I'll even buy a Manny bat for the boy, if you show it here and it's legit.

I bleed Blue, my tears are Manny blue-tears.

2009 World Series

Dodgers v. Jays, Dodger sweep, Manny hits 4 homers in game 4. :p

Manny's played 80 games for the blue and your acting as if he's been a Dodgers for years.

Your son has nothing to worry about when he gets his first speeding ticket because Daddy will be there to prove everyone else is wrong.

Face the facts and do some research on what Manny used.

mwbosoxfan
05-10-2009, 07:55 AM
By the Numbers

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/spacer.gif
Manny Ramirez has always been a consistent run producer, but during his 80-game tenure in Los Angeles, his power numbers have spiked considerably.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Graphic/2009/05/08/12__1241756787_2889.gif

I'm not saying that this shows anything definitively, but thought the numbers were actually pretty interesting.

3arod13
05-10-2009, 09:10 AM
This was in our sports page this morning. Thought it was pretty funny:

Manny Ramirez - Female fertility drugs? Fifty games is light; had he gotten pregnant, he would have missed at least 9 months.

suicide_squeeze
05-10-2009, 11:49 AM
By the Numbers

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/File-Based_Image_Resource/spacer.gif
Manny Ramirez has always been a consistent run producer, but during his 80-game tenure in Los Angeles, his power numbers have spiked considerably.

http://cache.boston.com/bonzai-fba/Globe_Graphic/2009/05/08/12__1241756787_2889.gif

I'm not saying that this shows anything definitively, but thought the numbers were actually pretty interesting.


What this shows is why there is such excitement behind Rick's interest in buying a Manny bat.

But as a fellow Dodger fan Rick......man, you had better snap out of it.

This guy crapped down your throat. He's a cheater, Rick. And what makes it worse is he is a cheater with no respect for the game at a time when we have never been more aware of the stigma attached to anyone cheating.

In other words, it's all about Manny and his career numbers, his legacy, and NOTHING about his team or fans. One could argue that he was doing all he could to win....but we don't want to win with cheaters. At least I don't. I was the biggest Manny fan on the planet.....even when he was in Boston, hell, Cleveland! Like I said before, this little piece of cheating defacation can take a walk now, he disrespected ALL of us.

Why would anyone want his bat now?

I don't mean to insinuate he's the level of a louse the likes of whom I'm going to mention, but would you display an O.J. Simpson helmet in your home because you went to USC or lived in Buffalo?

Think about the message you're putting out there to your kids....

markize
05-10-2009, 12:53 PM
What this shows is why there is such excitement behind Rick's interest in buying a Manny bat.

But as a fellow Dodger fan Rick......man, you had better snap out of it.

This guy crapped down your throat. He's a cheater, Rick. And what makes it worse is he is a cheater with no respect for the game at a time when we have never been more aware of the stigma attached to anyone cheating.

In other words, it's all about Manny and his career numbers, his legacy, and NOTHING about his team or fans. One could argue that he was doing all he could to win....but we don't want to win with cheaters. At least I don't. I was the biggest Manny fan on the planet.....even when he was in Boston, hell, Cleveland! Like I said before, this little piece of cheating defacation can take a walk now, he disrespected ALL of us.

Why would anyone want his bat now?

I don't mean to insinuate he's the level of a louse the likes of whom I'm going to mention, but would you display an O.J. Simpson helmet in your home because you went to USC or lived in Buffalo?

Think about the message you're putting out there to your kids....

Steve,

I have a ton of respect for you brother. I'm sure it's a tough pill to swallow on the manny/juice deal. I would find a tall bridge to jump off if Soriano's name makes the list (well, not really, it's just a hobby, but it would suck). I have to say, I understand the pressure to be on top, and live up to big $$$$ contracts, but cheatng is bullshit. It's the same in society, except business people aren't using steroids to get ahead. It's insder trading, or shady business deals.

I'm at the Yankees/orioles game right now, and aside from steroid chants when AROD was batting, I didn't even think about the juice. I'm here to spend a fun day at the ballpark with my wife, daughter, mother, and the rest of my family for mothers day.

I really do feel for you though.

Mark

sportscentury
05-10-2009, 02:28 PM
This guy crapped down your throat.

I must admit, this does not sound like a good situation.

.

suicide_squeeze
05-10-2009, 09:43 PM
Steve,

I have a ton of respect for you brother. I'm sure it's a tough pill to swallow on the manny/juice deal. I would find a tall bridge to jump off if Soriano's name makes the list (well, not really, it's just a hobby, but it would suck). I have to say, I understand the pressure to be on top, and live up to big $$$$ contracts, but cheatng is bullshit. It's the same in society, except business people aren't using steroids to get ahead. It's insder trading, or shady business deals.

I'm at the Yankees/orioles game right now, and aside from steroid chants when AROD was batting, I didn't even think about the juice. I'm here to spend a fun day at the ballpark with my wife, daughter, mother, and the rest of my family for mothers day.

I really do feel for you though.

Mark


Thanks for the kind words Mark.

I really hoped your family had a great time, even though Damon screwed up the game for you. Next time just rub the head of the "Babe's dream" statue as you leave the park....it'll make you feel better.

My Dodgers lost agin today. I hope the Dodger fans get used to it. Their charismatic leader and superstar was too selfish to let a good thing be. Hell, he could have just walked half of his at bats all season long, and the Dodgers would have cruised to 100 wins just because he was in the line-up.

But no, $45 mil wasn't enough for two years....bloat up the body, cheat on the numbers, make yourself so "superman-esque" that that $20 million second year becomes "renegotiable.....with a year or two added on."

Boras.....you miserable mother &^$%er, I hope you get what's coming to you. You're nothing more than a defense attorney type. You go to bat for the scumbags of the baseball world just because "someone's got to do it."
Choke on your lobster dinner, would you you b@st@rd? I pray to GOD the whole group of owners in MLB collude to run you out of business, before you facilitate the same fate for the game with your "service". Just look at your scumbag client list......it's pathetic. Someone should hold you responsible for ruining the value of a baseball ticket, you phuque.

What a farce. what a complete trainwreck for the Dodgers, ownership, management, fans.....it really sucks.

I say the Dodgers sue to get out of the contract, dump this bacteria, and go after two solid pitchers. Then maybe the team has a chance, becasue they do have some fairly good position players throughout the line-up.

But what could have been.....it truly does hurt.

encinorick
05-11-2009, 08:11 AM
Gentlemen: I stand by commitment, if someone would please, please tell me if that G*d*mn bat is legit.

That Scott Boras is a pig, there is no doubt.

But, I remind everyone of the sad tale of Andruw Jones, who came to the Dodgers, fat and bloated, his talent left in Atlanta, long ago.

He was a total bust, and refused to listen to everybody who told him that he had to lose weight, be better prepared, etc.

The Dodgers let him go for nothing, ate his remaining contract. He signed a minor league contract with the Rangers, lost weight, became focused and is now hitting .340.

These guys (especially Manny) are knuckleheads. A-Rod, Clemens are serial killers. There's a difference.

Now will someone tell me if that bat, is legit?

gameu08
05-11-2009, 12:55 PM
I purchased the bat from Andy Benish who seems to have been around this hobby for a very long time...judging by his website and the time he put into it. All the bat labeling, commentary, and the players he did research on and features on his site. The bat doesnt come with an LOA or COA, but I doubt someone like Andy would invest in a bat that was actually used. I dont see the arguement that this bat is a fake.

gameu08
05-11-2009, 01:02 PM
I purchased the bat from Andy Benish who seems to have been around this hobby for a very long time...judging by his website and the time he put into it. All the bat labeling, commentary, and the players he did research on and features on his site. The bat doesnt come with an LOA or COA, but I doubt someone like Andy would invest in a bat that was actually used. I dont see the arguement that this bat is a fake.

"WASNT" actually used. sorry.

sportscentury
05-11-2009, 02:36 PM
I purchased the bat from Andy Benish who seems to have been around this hobby for a very long time...judging by his website and the time he put into it. All the bat labeling, commentary, and the players he did research on and features on his site. The bat doesnt come with an LOA or COA, but I doubt someone like Andy would invest in a bat that was actually used. I dont see the arguement that this bat is a fake.

Andy is well-known among long-time hobbyists as one of most thorough and methodical collectors. The research he does on an item before adding it to his collection is daunting.