A 29.900.00 Worthless Piece Of Paper

[sammy]

Reprinted from:

http://www.autographalert.com/news.html (http://www.autographalert.com/news.html)


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May 5, 2009

Third Party Autograph Authenticators Spark talks of a Class Action Lawsuit?

1899 Ed Delahanty Secretarial Letter sells for $30,000, Ignites Debate

The buzz on the street is that some collectors and autograph dealers are talking about a class action lawsuit against companies who claim that they can authenticate autographs. The talk is not only against the companies but also against the individuals who are willing to have their names listed as “experts.” It is said that even if one of the so called “experts” never authenticated an autograph for the company, they have offered the use of their name which can mislead collectors into thinking the authenticator is active with the company. The listing of a person’s name as an expert who is not used for authenticating is more common than you would think.

Some collectors have been duped into purchasing an autograph based on the belief it was authentic because of certain people being listed as an “expert.” In many cases the “expert” was never aware the autograph was submitted to the company for examination. Several “experts” we have talked to have confirmed they have never been asked to authenticate an autograph from the 3rd party authenticating company which lists their name.

The list seems to be endless with just the major errors in autograph authenticating these companies have made. Some of those, associated with third party authenticating companies, have made $100,000 plus mistakes even authenticating celebrity hair which was offered at auction. When proven later the hair was not from the head of the person described, the auction was forced to make a refund.

Fifty thousand dollar plus mistakes in mis-authenticating rare autographs by third party authenticators common. Frequent errors in all fields of collecting are made whether it be sports, entertainment or political autographs. In rare cases refunds are made by the seller or auction company but usually with an agreement that the person getting the refund does not make the incident public.

It is beginning to appear collectors have had enough of 3rd party autograph authenticators who accept payment to offer simply a guess or give an opinion and offer absolutely no guarantees. Many feel it is past due, when errors in authenticating are made, the individuals who agree to be listed as “experts” need to be held accountable.

The following example is what has happened in the now complicated world of autographs. It was a sports item that appeared in a Nov.10/11, 2006 Hunt Auction. Listed as item #474, it was described as a handwritten letter by Ed Delahanty, member of the Baseball Hall of Fame. The letter was dated, Phila, Pa Dec.27, 1899. The item sold for a whopping $29,900. The letter was accompanied with an LOA from James Spence Authentication. WWW.autographalert.com declared the letter as NOT GENUINE in the article: "James Spence of James Spence Authentication Hits A Foul Ball," dated December 23, 2006 . The story can be found in the archives of this website: September- December, 2006 (http://autographalert.com/2006-7-12.html)

Some other hobby veteran’s got on board and notified Hunt Auctions questioning the letters authenticity. Attempts to contact James Spence by www.autographalert.com (http://www.autographalert.com/) over this issue was fruitless. He just doesn’t respond!

To continue, the owner of the same Delahanty letter recently consigned it to Robert Edward Auctions. It appeared as item #913 and the auction was scheduled to end May 2, 2009. This time the Delahanty letter comes complete with what is called “Full LOA’s from both James Spence Authentication, Certificate #B49257 and PSA/DNA Certificate #G56541.”

Both James Spence Authentication and PSA/DNA are also authenticators for eBay.

The persons named below have chosen to be listed as autograph authenticators for these companies.PSA/DNA

Steve Grad
James Camner
Bob Eaton
T.J. Kaye
Kevin Keating
Kevin Low
John Reznikoff
Zach Rullo
Bob ZafianJames Spence Authentication

James Spence
Larry Studebaker
Scott Cornish
Bob Eaton
Mike Gutierrez
Kip Ingle
Tom Kramer
Frank Kukla
John Reznikoff
Roger Epperson
Scott Stiwell
J. BardwellCatalog description stated in part Delahanty’s “...signature in any form is one of the most significant and rarest of all Hall of Famers. It is one of the true Holy Grails of Hall of Fame signature collecting, a virtually impossible-to-obtain stumbling block to any complete Hall of Fame signature collection...only a few examples of Delahanty’s signature are known to exist...”

Immediately upon receipt of the auction catalog, two hobby veterans notified Robert Lifson, President of Robert Edward Auctions that the Delahanty letter was not genuine. The industry recognized experts are Ron Keurajian who has been dealing in autographs since the 1970's. Mr. Keurajian has written nearly 40 signature studies on members of the Baseball Hall of Fame for Sports Collector's Digest. He has also written signature studies for Autograph magazine and is presently completing a book on the signatures of the members of the Baseball Hall of Fame. The other autograph expert is Steve Koschal who has studied autographs since the 1960's. He has maintained one of the largest autograph reference libraries in the world and his article on autograph reference books won him a first place award by an autograph organization. He is also the author of several books as well as over 200 articles that have been published on autograph collecting. Koschal also represented the United States of America and the Federal Bureau of Investigation as their autograph expert in Federal Court for “Operation Bullpen.”

Mr. Lifson was very responsive with the two experts in an exchange of several emails regarding the Delahanty letter. Keurajian and Koschal both advised Mr. Lifson that Delahanty’s signature on the letter was mis-spelled, "Delehanty" (see below), a common mistake to this day by those who write about Delahanty. However, Delahanty, a graduate of St. Joseph's University, presumably could spell his own name correctly.

http://www.autographalert.com/del_sig.jpg

In the meantime interested parties were placing bids for the letter. Bidding reached $15,000 the day before the end of the sale. Mr. Lifson, still accepting the decisions of the two authenticating companies did notify Kerujian and Koschal that he will do and his own research. This is the research the 3rd party authenticators should have done before they charged someone for the costs of the COA’s they issued. Mr. Lifson was successful finding information about Delahanty and “requested that PSA/DNA and JSA review the authentication of the item in great detail armed with the research we (Lifson) has provided.” In the meantime, a little discouraging was that Mr. Lifson stated: “...we will go with what our authenticators decide....” this was the day before the auction would end. It was not clear with all the prior documented mistakes made by these two companies why Mr. Lifson would be interested in what they now had to say.

In the meantime Mr. Lifson discovered through Delahanty’s biographer that Ed Delahanty was not in Philadelphia in December 1899.

http://www.autographalert.com/del.jpg



On the last day of the auction, Mr. Lifson sent an email to Steve Koschal indicating “the Delahanty letter has been withdrawn from the auction....”



The Ed Delahanty letter, right (note the mis-spelling: "Delehanty") Mr. Lifson continued (referring to a response he received from James Spence): “...is no longer comfortable with their previous authentication, and believes the letter appears to be a vintage secretarial version.

I appreciate your communicating with us about this item.”

Robert Edward Auctions did the right thing not only by willing to work with Keurajian and Koschal but going the extra mile and doing some of their own research.

This does not end here.

James Spence was contacted about the authenticity of this Delahanty letter shortly after the Hunt sale. Because Spence was unwilling to discuss his decision on this letter with experts, the winning bidder paid for the item not knowing the letter's authenticity was in question.

Robert Edward Auctions will be returning this basically worthless letter to the consignor.

If the consignor had bought the letter from a professional dealer who “guarantees” what they sell, he would have received a refund long ago.

Who will admit or take responsibility for the original sale of the Delahanty letter? The auction house or James Spence Authentication?

This $29,900 authenticating error could be added to a class action lawsuit!

[mvandor]

Very interesting, but this website's agenda is well known: drive all third party authenticators out of business.

[Capital-Sports]

I haven't read the whole article yet, but the websites agenda isn't to drive all 3rd party authenticators our of business. This site tells about their mishaps, while other sites only glorify them. This site is the medium balance.

[mvandor]

I haven't read the whole article yet, but the websites agenda isn't to drive all 3rd party authenticators our of business. This site tells about their mishaps, while other sites only glorify them. This site is the medium balance.

I hope you're saying that THIS site (GUU) is the "medium balance", because I've been monitoring autographalert.com for years, and I assure you it is an extremist site intent on driving authenticators OUT OF BUSINESS.

[treant985]

It might be noteworthy to consider that 99.99% of the time during Delahanty's lifetime, everybody spelled his name as Delehanty. I don't know if he personally spelled it that way (supposedly, it was only found out that he spelled it Delahanty after his death when his birth certificate was uncovered).

[Capital-Sports]

Im saying for autographs........I know 3rd party authenticators for autographs aren't always correct, but on the other sites I go on they get praised as being "experts" in their field, when in fact I have seen forgeries being authenticated by them.......Autographalert only states the bad things that happen with the authenticators, which I think is a good thing, because it's the same as this site, only without the 1000's of posts....and dealing with autographs, not game used.

[sammy]

James Spence Authentication, LLC

Certification and authentication involves an individual judgment that is subjective and requires the exercise of professional opinion, which can change from time to time. Therefore, JSA makes no warranty or representation and shall have no liability whatsoever to the customer for the opinion rendered by JSA on any submission.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PSA/DNA

Q: Do you guarantee that the autographs you certify are genuine and those you do not are fake?

A: No. We do not guarantee autographs under the Vintage Certified program. By using this program, you are paying for the opinion of the top experts in the world, using state-of-the-art examination tools and techniques.

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So, who is going to refund the 29,900.00 some unlucky person paid for this letter?

Both of the companies mentioned above will gladly refund the authentication fee, but that is all. Even though the buyer depended on the "expertise" of these self-proclaimed experts to make the purchase?

I personally applaud the guys at http://www.autographalert.com/news.html (http://www.autographalert.com/news.html).

If their only agenda is to continuously expose these "experts" and their true lack of expertise, I say go for it.

It is better to expose this garbage, then to sweep it under the rug as these companies would like.

I don't see why any person would object to exposing this garbage, unless that person has a monetary or business interest in the item and/or the authentication and/or auction company.

[mvandor]

I don't see why any person would object to exposing this garbage, unless that person has a monetary or business interest in the item and/or the authentication and/or auction company.

I see no problem wiith presenting balanced views, but this site does NOT even attempt to do that. Do third party authenticators make errors? Of course, and it's easy to shine spotlights on them. However, I'd be MORE interested in a balanced analysis giving us some idea of the batting average of the main companies.

THAT would provide perspective.

autographalerts.com will NEVER do that.

The domain name is registered to the infamous Steve Koschal (Google him if you want to learn more about his background) - the same Koschal referred to in the article as the "expert" challenging the letter - as though he weren't also the site owner and maybe even the actual author of the article.

[sammy]

Still begs the question.

Who is responsible for refunding the 29,900.00?

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I'm not looking for a balanced view. Don't find any on the PSA or JSA web sites, or web sites that promote these companies.

I am just looking to help collectors make an informed decision before they lose a lot of money.

I'm sure the person who paid 29,900.00 for that letter would have liked to have the information provided to Hunt auctions before the auction ended, or he/she paid for the fake letter.

[mvandor]

Still begs the question.

Who is responsible for refunding the 29,900.00?

--------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not looking for a balanced view. Don't find any on the PSA or JSA web sites, or web sites that promote these companies.

I am just looking to help collectors make an informed decision before they lose a lot of money.

I'm sure the person who paid 29,900.00 for that letter would have liked to have the information provided to Hunt auctions before the auction ended, or he/she paid for the fake letter.

Which begs me to ask your feelings on third party authenticators. Are they similar to the "burn 'em at the stake" mantra perpetuated at that site?

[earlywynnfan]

The domain name is registered to the infamous Steve Koschal (Google him if you want to learn more about his background) - the same Koschal referred to in the article as the "expert" challenging the letter - as though he weren't also the site owner and maybe even the actual author of the article.[/quote]


I laugh at the time I emailed autographalert to try to get a message to Koschal. They replied back how they could try to forward the message to him, but weren't really sure how to get a hold of him. Uh, whatever, dude!

I enjoy the site and check in weekly, but do take their postings with a grain of salt.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[trsent]

Very interesting, but this website's agenda is well known: drive all third party authenticators out of business.


I haven't read the whole article yet, but the websites agenda isn't to drive all 3rd party authenticators our of business. This site tells about their mishaps, while other sites only glorify them. This site is the medium balance.


I hope you're saying that THIS site (GUU) is the "medium balance", because I've been monitoring autographalert.com for years, and I assure you it is an extremist site intent on driving authenticators OUT OF BUSINESS.


I have posted time and time again - Autograph Alert is owned by people who are autograph authenticators themselves. Let me find the previous discussion about them:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=18147&highlight=autographalert.com


I forget if it was on Gavel Chat a few months ago, but that web site is a witch hunt where the owners and posters on it are just out to bash autograph authenticators. They have no balls - They do not sign their posts. They try to hide their web site's ownership as they are a hidden bash board.

Scroll down the latest news and they are whining that R&R Auctions and PSA/DNA confused Danny Kaye and Danny Thomas - Who cares? Like this was an intentional error - They are looking for trouble in the wrong places. They do not back up their claims with any proof and they just call out items and errors (and a suicide by an auction house employee) but do not sign their articles except with an AOL email address on their home page.

Here, I found the Gavel Chat article about this web site:

Thursday, June 05, 2008
Hard-hitting autograph website lacks credibilty (http://gavelchat.sportscollectorsdigest.com/Hardhitting+Autograph+Website+Lacks+Credibilty.asp x)
Posted by Chris

http://gavelchat.sportscollectorsdigest.com/content/binary/aa.jpg (http://gavelchat.sportscollectorsdigest.com/ct.ashx?id=750b48ab-df69-4cf4-9f28-e2c2ba958331&url=http%3a%2f%2fautographalert.com)I recently stumbled upon a website called autographalert.com (http://gavelchat.sportscollectorsdigest.com/ct.ashx?id=750b48ab-df69-4cf4-9f28-e2c2ba958331&url=http%3a%2f%2fautographalert.com), and I must say, it really touches on some hard-hitting issues in the autograph world. The one problem I have with it, however, is that (from what I could see) there was no author's name on who wrote these articles and many of the stories use anonymous and/or one-sided sources in the stories.

For those of you who have been longtime readers of Gavel Chat, you'll know that we are big on credibility and standing behind what we write.

I did a website lookup to see who autographalert.com was registered under (considering I searched their entire site twice and couldn't even find a contact name, just a generic email address) and this was the info that I turned up:

Registrant:
Autograph Alert

PO Box 297167
Pembroke Pines, Florida 33029
United States

Registered through: Broadband National, LLC
Domain Name: AUTOGRAPHALERT.COM
Created on: 16-Mar-05
Expires on: 16-Mar-09
Last Updated on: 16-Mar-08

Administrative Contact:
Mike Frost, Steve Koschal steve@paasaa.com
Autograph Alert
PO Box 297167
Pembroke Pines, Florida 33029
United States
(561) 582-4439



Now, from what I remember, Frost and Koschal are considered autograph authenticators. I also really think there is some interesting reading on their site, but I have little respect for any entity that writes nearly all negative articles, with many anonymous and/or one-sided sources. Also, I can't respect or seriously acknowledge a story that doesn't include a byline...

Makes no sense to me. If all this information is so important to the hobby, and they stand behind it, why on earth wouldn't they want credit for their findings?


I forgot to include links yesterday that were easily found when doing research. First off, the email address for the domain registration Chris Nerat found is an email address found at: paasaa.com

This is a pretty funny web site, as it is a 3rd party autograph authenticator that I have never heard of. When you click their link to their other web site: http://www.paasautographs.com/ you find another PAAS web site.

Then, if you click on their eBay link, they have nothing for sale, but their feedback is funny: http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=pro-authentication&ftab=AllFeedback&_trksid=p3911.c0.m198

Their eBay user id is: pro-authentication (http://myworld.ebay.com/pro-authentication)

So, what is shown here is that this 3rd party authentication company, which this week is taking a shot at James Spense Authentication for offering a $5.00 certification special, making it look such as if business is bad, is operated by the same people who have the Autograph Alert web site.

It wouldn't be as big of a concern, but they have a web site attacking PSA/DNA and JSA but they do not attribute their articles to anyone. The only contact information on the web site is a generic AOL email address.

So, until these guys grow up and admit there is competition to their service, which may not be doing well since they were selling "BABE RUTH AUTOGRAPH AUTHENTICATION SERVICES / P.A.A.S." on eBay for $29.00 their service may never make it.

So easy, run an honest business that doesn't try to succeed by tearing holes, often unproven, in their competition and maybe your company will one day succeed.

[sammy]

Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

I just want to see this garbage exposed.

[trsent]

Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

I just want to see this garbage exposed.

Ok, so they should have a mysterious site, attacking their competition, not signing their post or their site and hiding as if they are honest, reputable people when they are not willing to even put their name on their web site.

Any issues brought up on this fine site, Game Used Universe, has the author take credit for their findings so they can be questioned and held accountable for their concerns. Your support of this site, which many have posted has an hidden agenda, is your business but every time you post about them people bring up questions about their credibility.

Look at my link above. I found they were questioning something such as an Andrew Jackson autograph in a Mastro Auction, but no one could find the item they were questioning. It was random attack with to attribution to an auction item number, auction date, or anything but a blanket statement because they just love to attack anyone who authenticates autographs who does not work for their organization.

I want a man to sign his findings and stand behind his work - Not hide their hidden agenda which is to attack any 3rd party authenticator but their own, unheard of company.

At least when PSA/DNA or JSA gives an opinion of an item - They sign their name to their work. Does Autograph Alert take the time to sign their articles or findings? Don't answer - We all know the answer - They are baiters who look to attack others in a poor effort to hopefully, one day, grow their own authentication business.

They can keep selling opinions on eBay for $7.00 each. Some people value their service. I see in the last two weeks they have sold about $40.00 in opinions on eBay alone!

If you want to expose anyone in this industry - Be a man and sign your name to your findings. Otherwise, without attributing, their findings are WORTHLESS because they do not have the balls to take credit for their work because they are hiding a hidden agenda.

End of story - Expose anything you want but take credit for your work, unless you have something to hide yourself.

[trsent]

Hey, let's kill the messenger, and forget that some unlucky person is out 29,900.00 because of these "experts" lack of expertise.

SCD sure is a good source to quote, with their total lack of creditability in all aspects of this hobby / business.

I really don't care what their agenda is, or who owns it, or if they are in the authenticating business.

Nor do I care what the agenda is of all the people on here who expose these types of things from MEARS, Grey Flannel, Mastro, Lampson, eBay, you, me, Yogi Bear, Scooby Doo, or whomever.

I just want to see this garbage exposed.

By the waytry to discredit Chris Nerat's findings about who owns the Autograph Alert site. It really shows your lack of concern for the hidden agenda of attempted anonymous web site.

Chris found public information, so because you say SCD has a lack of credibility - Tell me - Prove one word incorrect in Chris Nerat's article I quoted above when he was still working for Sports Collectors Digest.

Common - I challenge you - Find anything that was not 100% The Truth in the article since you bashed SCD's credibility to make the truth look honest.

Chris Nerat signed his work in that article, he took credit for his findings and you bashed it because it was published on SCD's web site - Please find errors with his article and publish them or don't put anything down from him or SCD over the fact that your friends from Autograph Alert have an agenda to bring the few errors their competition makes into the spotlight in an effort to help their authentication service that, as we see, did around $40.00 in authentication sales on eBay over the past two weeks!

Wow! That $40.00 makes the Autograph Alert web site worth all the money they will one day have to pay in legal fees for their slander of issues time and time again.

[mvandor]

I certainly understand Sammy's point, however, he clearly implies in his opinion third party authenticators should be held liable for the full amount of the sale when they charged a relatively small amount for their service in the case. If this was done, obviously, all such services would cease to operate as going businesses. One or two large ticket items would put them into bankrupty.

Which I surmise would be just fine with Sammy and autographalert.com, but wouldn't be in the best interests of the overall autograph collecting community.

BTW, I'm interested in the one comment that the HOF'er might have spelled his name that way intentionally in his lifetime. Would love some further info on that.

[aeneas01]

first, the notion that criticism lodged by autographalert lacks credibility because the author(s) have chosen not to reveal their identities is patently absurd imo - what they point out is what it is, presented to readers for their consideration. further, what can be found in the pages of autographalert, the examples they cite, can be found elsewhere as well. i suppose anonymous tip hotlines should be deemed worthless too? good grief.

secondly i don't buy this "innocent bystander" nonsense authenticators try to peddle nor do i feel they should be absolved of financial liability given the way they see fit to package their products. when looking at psa/dna letters, lampson letters and the like, i think it becomes pretty obvious why a novice collector would believe that the letter guarantees an item's authenticity. holograms, a host of signatures, reference numbers, shiny little decals, it goes on and on - heck, some of these things look as official as the declaration of independence. by design. and therein lies the rub.

what is clearly missing from all of these letters, in crystal clear language, is that they represent nothing more than an opinion, an opinion that can change, and are therefore furnished without warranty, guarantee or protection. in fact if psa/dna, lampson or anyone else out there writing these letters was really interested in honestly presenting their product, they would on each and every letter, in bold letters, state what seems to only be available by digging through their websites. especially considering that these services have this type of thing in their closet:

"Take James Spence, one of the country's foremost sports-autograph experts. When a Fox-television news affiliate in Philadelphia asked him to verify the signatures on six baseballs signed by sports greats, he gave a firm thumbs-up to one apparently signed by former Phillies third-baseman Mike Schmidt. "Very, very typical of the way he would sign," he told the station's reporter. "Good speed, good letter formation, and reflects authority and spontaneity." Informed that the station's resident graphic artist had forged Schmidt's signature the day before, Spence could only reply: "He did a fine job."

That awkward episode unfolded a few years ago, when Spence headed up an autograph-authentication unit of Collectors Universe, a big player in collectibles whose stock is traded on Nasdaq (ticker: CLCT). Though Spence has since moved on, forming his own firm, the credibility of the unit, PSA/DNA, has increasingly drawn scrutiny. It is now battling two lawsuits challenging the integrity of certain authentications it made. And the company has taken an unusual flogging in the publications of two prestigious collectors' organizations."

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1125439/site_id/1#import

...

[trsent]

first, the notion that criticism lodged by autographalert lacks credibility because the author(s) have chosen not to reveal their identities is patently absurd imo - what they point out is what it is, presented to readers for their consideration. further, what can be found in the pages of autographalert, the examples they cite, can be found elsewhere as well. i suppose anonymous tip hotlines should be deemed worthless too? good grief.

secondly i don't buy this "innocent bystander" nonsense authenticators try to peddle nor do i feel they should be absolved of financial liability given the way they see fit to package their products. when looking at psa/dna letters, lampson letters and the like, i think it becomes pretty obvious why a novice collector would believe that the letter guarantees an item's authenticity. holograms, a host of signatures, reference numbers, shiny little decals, it goes on and on - heck, some of these things look as official as the declaration of independence. by design. and therein lies the rub.

what is clearly missing from all of these letters, in crystal clear language, is that they represent nothing more than an opinion, an opinion that can change, and are therefore furnished without warranty, guarantee or protection. in fact if psa/dna, lampson or anyone else out there writing these letters was really interested in honestly presenting their product, they would on each and every letter, in bold letters, state what seems to only be available by digging through their websites. especially considering that these services have this type of thing in their closet:

"Take James Spence, one of the country's foremost sports-autograph experts. When a Fox-television news affiliate in Philadelphia asked him to verify the signatures on six baseballs signed by sports greats, he gave a firm thumbs-up to one apparently signed by former Phillies third-baseman Mike Schmidt. "Very, very typical of the way he would sign," he told the station's reporter. "Good speed, good letter formation, and reflects authority and spontaneity." Informed that the station's resident graphic artist had forged Schmidt's signature the day before, Spence could only reply: "He did a fine job."

That awkward episode unfolded a few years ago, when Spence headed up an autograph-authentication unit of Collectors Universe, a big player in collectibles whose stock is traded on Nasdaq (ticker: CLCT). Though Spence has since moved on, forming his own firm, the credibility of the unit, PSA/DNA, has increasingly drawn scrutiny. It is now battling two lawsuits challenging the integrity of certain authentications it made. And the company has taken an unusual flogging in the publications of two prestigious collectors' organizations."

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1125439/site_id/1#import

...

If they can't be critized for hiding without admitting they own an autograph authentication company (maybe because it was a statement from me) then please explain this to me:

"The other autograph expert is Steve Koschal who has studied autographs since the 1960's. He has maintained one of the largest autograph reference libraries in the world and his article on autograph reference books won him a first place award by an autograph organization. He is also the author of several books as well as over 200 articles that have been published on autograph collecting. Koschal also represented the United States of America and the Federal Bureau of Investigation as their autograph expert in Federal Court for “Operation Bullpen.”"


Funny, the guy who is the registered owner of the site is the other autograph expert they mention.


They don't mention that he owns the site posting the article, they don't mention that he may have written the article. It is like me someone writing an article about themselves.

That is called an autobiography and should be attitude to the author, unless he has a hidden agenda to hide, which Chris Nerat previously discovered but the communist nation often feels if they are right with one article, they are ok in their book.

So, once again, we see support for a mysterious company attacking their competition and not signing their work. It would be as if an auction house had a private web site that picked on all the other auction houses errors, but no one knew who posted the information.

[sammy]

Joel,

If they were to sign their names for you, would it make any difference in regard to the items they expose?

A fake is a fake, and a forgery is a forgery.

[trsent]

[quote=sammy;138974]Joel,

If they were to sign their names for you, would it make any difference in regard to the items they expose?

A fake is a fake, and a forgery is a forgery.

quote]

They expose items that others have already supposedly exposed. They have no credibility and from contact I have received their past is suspect in the autograph industry.

They are scumbags with a hidden agenda I am here to reveal an honest case of bad apples playing games with their competition.

- The Truth Hurts.

[mvandor]

Sir, I do not understand - They expose items that others have already supposedly exposed. They have no credibility and from contact I have received their past is suspect in the autograph industry.



Get over it - The Truth Hurts.

We've had our differences, Joel, but in this case we agree. I won't refute the mistakes they publish, but to ignore their motivation and agenda is simply being blind.

[aeneas01]

so let's see if i've got this straight - all credibility is lost if the one pointing out issues not only chooses to post anonymously but also happens to be engaged in the same sort of business as the accused? is that right? can pretty much toss out anything such a person has to say? in fact, such folks are "scumbags"? is that what i'm hearing?

if i removed my name from my sig and began to deal in vintage football helmets, would everything i subsequently posted at the forum regarding bunk helmets appearing at auction be meaningless, lacking in credibility and merit? if i decided to write my own letters of opinion on the vintage helmets i sold, yet at the forum continued to point out issues i found with other letters of opinion that accompanied bunk helmets, would those posts represent nothing more than a transparent, hidden agenda?

lots of dealers/sellers on this very forum, guf members, who post regularly about issues they've found with game used items sold at auction. extremely informative posts detailing why they consider the items bunk - and many of these members choose not to share their identities. do they all have hidden agendas? is what they share meaningless, lacking in credibility? are they "scumbags"?

hey, i don't know the people from autographalert any more than i know vince lombardi, but like most adults i feel that i'm capable of deciding what to believe and what not to believe when it comes to items i read. further, i would imagine if autographalert was the baseless hit job some think it to be, it would have been shut down long ago instead of pumping out pieces as recently as this month. speaking of baseless hit jobs, joel had me rolling when he punctuated his condemnation of autographalert by offering the following: "They can keep selling opinions on eBay for $7.00 each..." - of course psa/dna sells opinions for $10 on their site...

...

[trsent]

so let's see if i've got this straight - all credibility is lost if the one pointing out issues not only chooses to post anonymously but also happens to be engaged in the same sort of business as the accused? is that right? can pretty much toss out anything such a person has to say? in fact, such folks are "scumbags"? is that what i'm hearing?

if i removed my name from my sig and began to deal in vintage football helmets, would everything i subsequently posted at the forum regarding bunk helmets appearing at auction be meaningless, lacking in credibility and merit? if i decided to write my own letters of opinion on the vintage helmets i sold, yet at the forum continued to point out issues i found with other letters of opinion that accompanied bunk helmets, would those posts represent nothing more than a transparent, hidden agenda?

lots of dealers/sellers on this very forum, guf members, who post regularly about issues they've found with game used items sold at auction. extremely informative posts detailing why they consider the items bunk - and many of these members choose not to share their identities. do they all have hidden agendas? is what they share meaningless, lacking in credibility? are they "scumbags"?

hey, i don't know the people from autographalert any more than i know vince lombardi, but like most adults i feel that i'm capable of deciding what to believe and what not to believe when it comes to items i read. further, i would imagine if autographalert was the baseless hit job some think it to be, it would have been shut down long ago instead of pumping out pieces as recently as this month. speaking of baseless hit jobs, joel had me rolling when he punctuated his condemnation of autographalert by offering the following: "They can keep selling opinions on eBay for $7.00 each..." - of course psa/dna sells opinions for $10 on their site...

...

Robert, your work on helmets is amazing, but don't give credit or praise anyone with a hidden agenda of attacking their competition and say everything they post is correct.

They post so many twists and lies it is unbelievable. Give them praise for attacking their competition.

eBay choose PSA/DNA to offer a quick opinion. I believe the charge is $7.99, but who cares? PSA/DNA doesn't have a hidden web site attacking other authenticators errors.

They all make errors in judgment, every one of them. While some people admit to their mistakes, I do not see Steve Korshal's name mentioned for his errors on this web site.

Odd, he has made so many mistakes over the years I figured he would be mentioned for his mistakes on this web site.

Oh wait - He owns the web site - Why should he reveal his errors - Just any other he can find.

you want to clean up the hobby but then you attack those who have been linked to more questionable dealings in the industry because you think their hidden agenda web site is credible.

Robert, keep up the great work you offer because it is really revolutionary, but think twice before you praise common criminals.

[mvandor]

Robert, have you Googled "Steve Koschal"? Have you ever heard the saying "consider the source?"

[trsent]

Robert, have you Googled "Steve Koschal"? Have you ever heard the saying "consider the source?"

http://www.autographdealernews.com/Articles.aspx?article=20

I do not know who Autograph Dealer News is (a Las Vegas company) but I see they have a few stories on this link about Steve Koschal.

I do not mind if people bring attention to authentication issues in the industry if they are doing it honestly without an extra agenda.

For instance, I praise Robert and Rudy for work they have done on this site time and time again. I do not believe they can be looking to profit off their work like the folks at Autograph Alert can be accused of doing.

I am often confused why items from online auction catalogs from 3-5 years ago are now being read and old questionable items are being show up years and years after the original sale. This may lead us to see the online archives of some of these auction houses to disappear from their web site which doesn't help anyone.

[sammy]

In regard to the site you mention above, I will use your quotes.

"They post so many twists and lies it is unbelievable."



" Ok, so they should have a mysterious site, attacking their competition, not signing their post or their site and hiding as if they are honest, reputable people when they are not willing to even put their name on their web site."

"If you want to expose anyone in this industry - Be a man and sign your name to your findings. Otherwise, without attributing, their findings are WORTHLESS because they do not have the balls to take credit for their work because they are hiding a hidden agenda."

"So, once again, we see support for a mysterious company attacking their competition and not signing their work."

---------------------------------------------------------------------

[jdr3]

You would never find a business owner/representative like Barry Meisel, Mark Hayne or Josh Wulkan coming on to this forum and using terms such as "------" and engaging in the bevy of insults and petty arguements . All should learn from their example and deport in a manner of class and professionalism.

[fromcooperstowntohollywood]

[quote=jdr3;139127]You would never find ----------quote]

Whether you like his argument or not, Joel is correct on this one. Perhaps you should ask Steve Koschal about the Babe Ruth autograph authentication opinion that was sent to him last month concerning a Babe Ruth autographed ball that is currently listed on ebay (STAT authenticated.) If you know STAT, then you know where it came from. If you know where it came from, you know it is no good. Yet Mr. Koschal deemed the ball authentic. I guess Mr. Koschal did not realize he lived in a glass house.
His website slams every authenticator because HE wants that business. He hides behind the website, attempting to drive PSA and JSA out of business.
As for DelEhanty, there are several KNOWN autographs out there that MIRROR the one that was in the REA auction (no-I don't own it, have nothing to do with it.)
RK principle

[jdr3]

It's got nothing to do with being right or wrong. It has to do with professionalism.

[aeneas01]

Have you ever heard the saying "consider the source?"

great adage, love it, words to live by. on the other hand "dismiss the source" doesn't quite have the same ring, doesn't quite impart the same sage advice - probably the reason it hasn't enjoyed similar success.

if i stumbled across an anonymously authored blog filled with accusations concerning those that deal in vintage football helmets, those that authenticate vintage football helmets, i wouldn't immediately backspace and move on. i would, as always, "consider the source" and read on. and what i read would have merit or it wouldn't. if i later discovered that the author was the one responsible for doctoring many of the vintage helmets currently in circulation, it would most likely have little impact on what i had read at his site. why? because i had already "considered the source" - i had not taken what he had written as gospel, i had independently verified or rejected his claims and had already drawn my own conclusions.

...

[sammy]

Regardless of how anyone feels about Mr. Koschal, it was due to his and Ron Keurajian's efforts that the letter was pulled from the REA auction, thus saving some other unlucky bidder the same fate as the consignor, who purchased the letter from Hunt auctions for 29,900.00.

It was not due to the efforts of PSA/DNA or JSA, who both originally authenticated the letter as genuine.

On the last day of the auction, Mr. Lifson sent an email to Steve Koschal indicating “the Delahanty letter has been withdrawn from the auction....”


Mr. Lifson continued (referring to a response he received from James Spence): “...is no longer comfortable with their previous authentication, and believes the letter appears to be a vintage secretarial version.

[trsent]

Regardless of how anyone feels about Mr. Koschal, it was due to his and Ron Keurajian's efforts that the letter was pulled from the REA auction, thus saving some other unlucky bidder the same fate as the consignor, who purchased the letter from Hunt auctions for 29,900.00.

It was not due to the efforts of PSA/DNA or JSA, who both originally authenticated the letter as genuine.

On the last day of the auction, Mr. Lifson sent an email to Steve Koschal indicating “the Delahanty letter has been withdrawn from the auction....”


Mr. Lifson continued (referring to a response he received from James Spence): “...is no longer comfortable with their previous authentication, and believes the letter appears to be a vintage secretarial version.

I do not understand, you want us to tell you we approve of what you say they did now?

How about this example?

21206

21207

Why was this great error not listed on the web site?

I have more, but I have work to do so I will post more later today if necessary. Pretty funny. Guy owns an authentication service, and you say he single handedly had a suspect lot removed and now we have to appreciate his attacking web site?

Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

[earlywynnfan]

By the way, Robert, Joel would like you to cease and desist posts like this one:
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=25400

Dragging up old auctions and showing what's wrong with them will only lead to the companies' archives being removed, and that hurts all of us. This, of course, far outweighs any good seeing such crap identified can bring.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[mvandor]

great adage, love it, words to live by. on the other hand "dismiss the source" doesn't quite have the same ring, doesn't quite impart the same sage advice - probably the reason it hasn't enjoyed similar success.

if i stumbled across an anonymously authored blog filled with accusations concerning those that deal in vintage football helmets, those that authenticate vintage football helmets, i wouldn't immediately backspace and move on. i would, as always, "consider the source" and read on. and what i read would have merit or it wouldn't. if i later discovered that the author was the one responsible for doctoring many of the vintage helmets currently in circulation, it would most likely have little impact on what i had read at his site. why? because i had already "considered the source" - i had not taken what he had written as gospel, i had independently verified or rejected his claims and had already drawn my own conclusions.

...

I learned a long time ago, seldom is anything as it seems at first glance when ultimately placed in a proper perspective.

As for the general topic, I don't like authentication errors, but I know they're going to be made. And I personally feel there is a legitimate place in the autograph hobby for good, professional, 3rd party authentication services. Others don't. Do I feel people should be held accountable for their work? Sure. However, liability can be counterproductive, look at the insane rise in health care costs due to the billions handed out in court cases and settlements. The system is at the breaking point.

Always a bigger picture to consider.

[sammy]

Joel,

Why do you state the Apollo 11 photo is a "great error"?

------------------------------------------------------

Please put all the "great errors" you have on here.

I would personally like all this garbage exposed, regardless of who authenticated it

------------------------------------------------------

[trsent]

I was thinking today about how if Lou Lampson had a secret web site that we all knew he owned and he listed errors other authenticators made, and then praised himself everyone would go crazy.

Ok, here is another example I was emailed today:

21224

21225

[aeneas01]

I learned a long time ago, seldom is anything as it seems at first glance when ultimately placed in a proper perspective.

As for the general topic, I don't like authentication errors, but I know they're going to be made. And I personally feel there is a legitimate place in the autograph hobby for good, professional, 3rd party authentication services. Others don't. Do I feel people should be held accountable for their work? Sure. However, liability can be counterproductive, look at the insane rise in health care costs due to the billions handed out in court cases and settlements. The system is at the breaking point.

Always a bigger picture to consider.

i don't think there's a bigger picture to consider at all - if someone, anonymously or not, with baggage or not, alerts collectors to problems i'm all for it. as a collector i'm only interested in information and could care less about what the motive might or might not be, could care less whether or not the one pointing the finger resides in a bigger glass house than the other. further, to debate whether or not psa/dna is a more respectable outfit than autographalert is to miss the point entirely.

authenticators, like all for profit businesses, hang their shingles and therefore should be held responsible for their work, especially considering how they continue to package their work. to suggest that collectors should tread lightly or temper their scrutiny in these matters, for fear that the cost to collectors may be severe should this force authenticators out of business, is absolutely insane imo.

...

[aeneas01]

I was thinking today about how if Lou Lampson had a secret web site that we all knew he owned and he listed errors other authenticators made, and then praised himself everyone would go crazy. Ok, here is another example I was emailed today:

again, what exactly does this have to do with presenting information to collectors? has autographalert's scrutiny privileges been forever revoked because they've dropped the ball as well? when they point to issues should these issues be dismissed out of hand because they have a sketchy past? is that what i'm hearing? an employee gets fired for stealing and turns around and tells the local newspapaer that his former employer has been dumping toxic waste into the nearby creek. dismiss the fired employee's claims, he's obviously a thief with an axe to grind, or check into his story?

....

[trsent]

again, what exactly does this have to do with presenting information to collectors? has autographalert's scrutiny privileges been forever revoked because they've dropped the ball as well? when they point to issues should these issues be dismissed out of hand because they have a sketchy past? is that what i'm hearing? an employee gets fired for stealing and turns around and tells the local newspapaer that his former employer has been dumping toxic waste into the nearby creek. dismiss the fired employee's claims, he's obviously a thief with an axe to grind, or check into his story?

....

Robert - When a company has a secret agenda to try to help their own company, but we find they are suspect people themselves, something doesn't add up.

Again, I love your work on this forum, but do not tell me if someone makes a mistake that the criminals can show it off in their own private site to glorify themselves.

There is a big picture here, and the crooks are picking on the people trying real hard (who will make mistakes)

[sammy]

Again, I ask you what is wrong with the Apollo 11 photo?

What is wrong with the DiMaggio jersey?

If you are going to use these as examples to claim authentication of forgeries, then you should point out the reasons why, or name your source.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you would care to read the www.autographalert.com (http://www.autographalert.com/), I believe their agenda, as you state, is very clear.

There is nothing hidden, as they plainly state in English what their purpose is.

For all we know your source for the photos you are posting is one of the other authentication companies mentioned.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[aeneas01]

who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

what on earth does this have to do with information, the topic at hand? either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

btw i think it's pretty bizarre that someone would be so rabidly ardent in their negative portrayal of autographalert in this situation - i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

[mvandor]

who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

what on earth does this have to do with information, the topic at hand? either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

btw i think it's pretty bizarre that someone would be so rabidly ardent in their negative portrayal of autographalert in this situation - i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

Robert, this has to do with, among other things, credibility. The individuals associated with the site in question simply have none.

[trsent]

Joel,



Again, I ask you what is wrong with the Apollo 11 photo?

What is wrong with the DiMaggio jersey?

If you are going to use these as examples to claim authentication of forgeries, then you should point out the reasons why, or name your source.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you would care to read the www.autographalert.com (http://www.autographalert.com/), I believe their agenda, as you state, is very clear.

There is nothing hidden, as they plainly state in English what their purpose is.

For all we know your source for the photos you are posting is one of the other authentication companies mentioned.



The two images posted are clearly not genuine and no one can claim they are genuine. Autograph Alert should post these two items. Maybe while they are at it they can post Steve Koshal's sale of John Wayne Gacy items that was well documented.

Sorry you and I do not see eye to eye on this one.

You really care where I found just two examples of questionable autographs that Steve Koshal has authenticated? I would like Autograph Alert to reveal these two items as they are both FAKE - Who cares who supplied me with these examples? Am I being accused of hiding something? At least when I make a post I don't hide behind a web site pretending I have nothing to do with my findings.

21247


who cares if someone has a secret agenda, is posting from san quentin while serving a thirty year stretch, kicks the dog on a regular basis, has designs to corner the market by attacking the competition, is an all around bad guy, doesn't practice what he preaches, doesn't give mom a jingle on mother's day? so what?

either the information is true or it isn't - nothing contained in an accuser's computer dating profile matters. show me a site that offers nothing but blatant lies, false accusations, unfounded claims and worthless information and i will agree with you. but i've noticed that no one is stating that about autographalert.

heck, the references to the schmidt and bando fiascos involving spence on fox news is alone worth a visit. not because they were horribly embarrassing moments for spence and his company, but because it was a rare opportunity to watch one of these guys in action, applying their "expertise" to the task at hand. very scary.

- i mean everyone gets it, everyone understands the score over there, no one is under the impression that the place is a pillar of integrity. as such continuing to post examples of their bungled work is rather peculiar - even more peculiar are the claims that folks are "glorifying" the site. especially considering that the topic at hand has nothing to with which of of two owns the better resume. truly bizarre.

...

Robert, I am sorry - We I will also disagree with you on this one along with many others.

A criminal publicly and with their identities hidden attacking others does not make for a positive experience. Their information is often not factual and very misleading. You can like anyone calling anything questionable out all you want, but the reason for such and the background of why is really sad.

?


Then again, you are basically telling us that if criminals attack others at least the information is being offer so the public has more negative energy to work with?

When an honest person such as yourself signs his findings it is respectable. When someone hides their identity and lives their life to attack the competition, even though the competition is correct a high percentage of the time - I get tired of seeing the burning at the cross for a personal agenda that they don't even take credit for because they are so scared of the libel suits!

[sammy]

---------------------------------------------------------

[xpress34]

I've been reading this RANT between board members for days now, but this quote just had me thinking of a similar situation - that is relevant currently in the collecting world as well...

Jose Canseco. Admitted Roid user who names others... everyone cries foul and says - 'You can't trust him. He's just bitter and pointing the finger to take the spotlight off of himself.' Has he been proven wrong yet on ANYONE he named? No.

That said, whether you like AutographAlert or not, their information should be an eye opener about the HOBBY and the BUSINESS in General. Has ANYONE proven them wrong yet on any of their Claims? Not that I'm aware of... if they are, where are the LAWSUITS???

If guys here can PROVE who owns the board, I'm sure BIG COMPANIES like PSA/DNA, UDA, etc can do so as well and would use that to file suit - if for no other reason than to show that they STAND BEHIND THEIR OWN FINDINGS...

But GUESS WHAT? They don't... they crack and break and admit their fault - but ONLY because they have been called out.

Regardless of the background of the so called 'owner' of AutographAlert, they have cast a shadow over an industry in which they were/are involved - they had to know that it can and more than likely WILL blow back over them and their work as well.

They may not have 'crucified' their own work/findings, but they also haven't named themselves or tried to compare their work against those they have crucified themselves as being better researched or more reliable, etc so how can anyone say that this site is SELF SERVING.

PLEASE, show me ONE Post on there that raves on about how good THEIR items are or where they compare items they question from PSA/DNA, UDA, etc against their own items.

Unless they are DIRECTLY using that forum to promote their own items EXPLICITLY (Claiming that by NOT naming themselves IMPLIES they are reputable would NOT stand up in court), then HOW can you attack the forum and claim it's self serving???

I could give a---- about Steve Koshal - and if he is a Fraud, I hope he gets what's coming to him - BUT, until an item that is brought up and disputed (PUBLICLY I might add) on AutographAlert is Challenged and Defended by the ORIGINATING Authenticator, I will continue to follow the column as it is one of the BEST sources of information out there right now.

There are plenty of articles (outside of this thread) attacking AutographAlert because of it ties to Steve Koshal, but again - NONE dispute any of the findings on the site... all just a bunch of Sour Grapes because the site exposes the naivete and amatuer policies used by BIG companies to get items authenticated while trying to keep themselves protected from any liability stemming from said items sale based on THEIR 'hired guns' opinions.



I will close by offering this 'Hypothesis'... it is my opinion that it appears to me that Joel seems to think EVERYONE who defends AA most be a suck up or in cahoots with them.



WHEW!!!

Okay guys - that's my .02 on this issue - have at it and do what you will with it... I can't wait to see the responses...

- Chris

[xpress34]

I'm sorry, I can't help myself... I HAVE to add this:


The two images posted are clearly not genuine and no one can claim they are genuine.

PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME. I can claim they are Genuine if I am a Novice Collector and I own them because I have a letter from an AUTOGRAPH AUTHENTICATOR saying so... just like the ones I have for numerous items in my basement. Was James Spence there in 1952 to witness the Yankeess team ball I am considering buying? NO, I'm pretty certain he wasn't - but he sure as hell authenticated the Autographs...

So, if I am a novice and I am expected to accept JSA's Credibility as well as PSA/DNA. etc, etc... why shouldn't I trust these two images?

Because YOU say so? I say they are real. (not really, just for arguements sake) And like yourself, I will give NO explanation as to why I claim that. We now have a he said/he said situation. NO WINNERS.

So again, ENLIGHTEN me with your REASONS that they are FAKE. Just like PSA/DNA telling me the Pujols ball he signed in front of me at Nike adn the A-Rod ball my friend got me at Spring Training both fail to pass authentication for the EXACT SAME REASONS. BS!!! Two different autos, different ink, etc... no way they both have the EXACT same reasons for NOT passing (i.e. FORM LETTER - because it was my 1st submission to them - I'm not a dealer who can grease the wheels).

At least AA puts up what they are comparing the item too, history of the signer or their signature, etc.

You sir offer simply - your opinion...and everybody has one...

Again, just my .02...

- Chris

[fromcooperstowntohollywood]

I'm sorry, I can't help myself... I HAVE to add this:



PLEASE ENLIGHTEN ME. I can claim they are Genuine if I am a Novice Collector and I own them because I have a letter from an AUTOGRAPH AUTHENTICATOR saying so... just like the ones I have for numerous items in my basement. Was James Spence there in 1952 to witness the Yankeess team ball I am considering buying? NO, I'm pretty certain he wasn't - but he sure as hell authenticated the Autographs...

So, if I am a novice and I am expected to accept JSA's Credibility as well as PSA/DNA. etc, etc... why shouldn't I trust these two images?

Because YOU say so? I say they are real. (not really, just for arguements sake) And like yourself, I will give NO explanation as to why I claim that. We now have a he said/he said situation. NO WINNERS.

So again, ENLIGHTEN me with your REASONS that they are FAKE. Just like PSA/DNA telling me the Pujols ball he signed in front of me at Nike adn the A-Rod ball my friend got me at Spring Training both fail to pass authentication for the EXACT SAME REASONS. BS!!! Two different autos, different ink, etc... no way they both have the EXACT same reasons for NOT passing (i.e. FORM LETTER - because it was my 1st submission to them - I'm not a dealer who can grease the wheels).

At least AA puts up what they are comparing the item too, history of the signer or their signature, etc.

You sir offer simply - your opinion...and everybody has one...

Again, just my .02...

- Chris


Chris...just in case you are wondering, the 500HR Club ball you purchased from the classified section is fake. No, I'm not kidding, and you can ask Sammy. Steve Koshcal slams authenticators but owns an authentication company. And the astronaut photo Joel showed, I have the same one, but mine is an autopen. Last, we are all human and we are all going to make mistakes. Maybe autograph alert should say authenticators like PSA and JSA are accurate 99% of the time, but you'll never get THAT out of a company that wants to be the ONLY authenticators on the block.

[xpress34]

Chris...just in case you are wondering, the 500HR Club ball you purchased from the classified section is fake. No, I'm not kidding, and you can ask Sammy. Steve Koshcal slams authenticators but owns an authentication company. And the astronaut photo Joel showed, I have the same one, but mine is an autopen. Last, we are all human and we are all going to make mistakes. Maybe autograph alert should say authenticators like PSA and JSA are accurate 99% of the time, but you'll never get THAT out of a company that wants to be the ONLY authenticators on the block.

Coop -

1st, where did you come up that I bought the 500 HR ball? Yes, I inquired on it but I did my homework and didn't touch it. I know he sold it, but not to me.

2nd, so you have the same Astronaut photo as Joel but yours is an autopen... okay? What does that have to do with Joel NOT giving any reason for why he claims the one he showed is a fake? Is he implying that because it has a Steve Koshcal LOA that it is fake? Like has been said about 'Uncle' Lou and others on these boards, has Koschal faked or lied about EVERY item he ahs ever authenticated - or has he been right once in awhile?

Finally, guys keep claiming that Steve Koshcal and AA want to be the ONLY authenticators on the block but again I ask - where exactly IS the LINK on AA to THEIR Authentication Service???

OH, that's right... I forgot... because they don't slam Steve Koshcal, they are subvertly driving you to his services??? I'll admit - before I started reading this post, I had never even herad of Steve Koshcal, so if I was a novice collecrot who just came accross AA and I had no idea who he was, please ENLIGHTEN me and tell me EXACTLY how they are driving me to their services???

So they salm PSA/DNA, JSA, UDA, etc... I'm pretty certain if I was a naive novice and did a Google search of Autograph Authenticators that outside of those, Steve Koshcal would NOT be the only other name to come up...

And AGAIN, I will point out - unless you can direct me to some other site saying differently - PSA/DNA, JSA, etc have NEVER publicly disputed what has been reported on AA and NEVER filed suit against them for Slander or Libel.

Those are the same BENCHMARKS we hold athletes to when an accusation is made against them for using steroids, etc - where is the OUTRAGE?, where is the LAWSUIT? When there isn't one, we immediately say the claim must be true since they aren't disputing it.

You do the math.

- Chris

[xpress34]

Maybe autograph alert should say authenticators like PSA and JSA are accurate 99% of the time, but you'll never get THAT out of a company that wants to be the ONLY authenticators on the block.

I forgot to add... I would LOVE to see PROOF that AA has said (verbatim) that PSA/DNA and JSA are ALWAYS wrong and NEVER get it right and that NO ONE should ever trust their opinions.

And just to be clear, I am in no way affiliated with AA or any other so called 'Authenticator' - and I am sure that PSA/DNA and JSA do well at what they do, but as has been pointed out many times, unless they are there IN PERSON to WITNESS (not 'Authenticate') the Autograph, their Opinion is just the same as mine - an OPINION. They told me that my Pujols ROY Auto that I obtained IN PERSON (while working for Nike) - that I WITNESSED Albert sign for me was 'Likely Not Genuine' because they had not seen a ROY Inscription from him? SERIOUSLY? So because THEY hadn't seen one, it doesn't exsist unless it was FAKED?

That is why many of my autos will NEVER be 'AUTHENTICATED'... why do I want to waste my money on items I KNOW are real because I personally WINESSED them being signed to ahve someone else who wasn't there render their OPINION on whether it is AUTHENTIC or not?

Case in Point (and pictures to follow)... My Clark Griffith AUTO Ball... and obscure HOFer to many, Griffith was once a player and later owner of the Washington Senators - in fact the former Major League Park 'Griffith Stadium' was named in his Honor.

Well, about 6 months ago a Griffith 'Secretarial Signature' was offered on eBay - sweet spot on old ball (No visible AL/NL markings)... his reasoning for calling it a secretarial signature was it didn't match the PSA/DNA cert example he could find (Index card auto - which could have been through the mail and therefore a Secretarial sig itself):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/GriffAU3.jpg


This PSA DNA example is one I found - ON a CONTRACT that Griffith HAD to be present to sign! It's a LEGAL Document...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/GriffAU1.jpg

And Finally - this is the ball...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v738/xpress34/GriffithBall1.jpg

Notice how the 'C' and the open 'G' in Clark and Griffith on the Ball match the CONTRACT, but NOT the Index Card? And the 'line' crossing the T and H in Griffith is a straight line on both the CONTRACT and the BALL, but on the Index card it loops of the end of the H?

It is MY OPINION that the Ball is NOT a Secretarial Signature, but rather the GENUINE Article based on the two 'exemplars' BOTH from the Same AUTHENTICATOR but obviously NOT the same and using common sense to deduce that the Contract would carry the stronger Provence that Clark Griffith HAD to be ther to put his John Hancock on it.

What did this baby cost me??? $25.00. $12.99 winning bid and $10 s/h... now, go look up a Clark Griffith single signed ball in Tough Stuff or whatever Auto Price Guide you use... $3,200.00 HOFer single signed ball... I MAY send it to PSA/DNA just to see what they say... and if it comes back 'likely NOT genuine', I will resubmit it witht the two opposing examples from above and ask them to explain HOW exactly it doesn't match their 'exemplar' database. If they DO Authenticate it, then any self respecting HOF Auto collector should be willing to make me a tidy profit in order to ahve this bad boy in his collection.

I bring this example up also because I would like to hear their comments about two obviously different style sigs of the same person both authenticated by them after I have heard story time and time again where they have given the 'unable to certify' or 'likely not genuine' because the persons auto in question has alwasy been consistent???

Alright... I've ranted on long enough here... let the disection begin!

- Chris

[trsent]

Okay guys - that's my .02 on this issue - have at it and do what you will with it... I can't wait to see the responses...

- Chris



Sorry, I don't like criminals attacking others. You like their facts? Part of them are made up, the other part the authenticators have made adjustments over.

What refunds has Steve Koshal given for all the money he has stolen from the honest public?

Oh yeah, it doesn't matter because he gave good information.



I do not believe those with a hidden agenda should be praised for revealing an error found here or there when their errors are never disclosed on the web site even though they do not take credit for their work.

Keep praising the findings of a group bent on revenge for past dealings.

Finally, you attack me for not revealing where I found errors in Steve Koshal COAs? I take full credit for finding those and stand behind them. So what is your stupid issue with this? I signed my post - I posted those images.

I take full credit for them. What is the issue beyond that?

[trsent]

Chris, maybe this has gone the wrong direction.

PSA/DNA, JSA, Global (oh my!), PAAS (who?) and all the others - They have all made mistakes. Posting those mistakes is not the issue. How they deal with found errors is an issue, but someone who has made errors and sold questionable items for a long time who attacks companies attempting to do well in the industry for personal revenge and doesn't even admit they are the attackers makes for a questionable practice.

The issue is when someone pretending not to be who they are uses errors not to educate the public but for their own ego trip. They don't even admit to their posts - They are a big secret that Chris Nerat uncovered and now you want us to praise their suspect reporting?

Funny thing is the original post about the Deleahanty autograph - Nothing proves this piece is not genuine - Nothing. It is suspect, but no one has proved it not to be genuine with any 100% proof.

[xpress34]

Sorry, I don't like criminals attacking others. You like their facts? Part of them are made up, the other part the authenticators have made adjustments over.

Which parts are 'made up' Joel? No one has disputed ANYTHING they have posted - except you and no examples of their 'made up' stuff. Again, Please ENLIGHTEN me with your knowledge and facts.


What refunds has Steve Koshal given for all the money he has stolen from the honest public?

Oh yeah, it doesn't matter because he gave good information.

I have in NO WAY defended him, and I openly admitted that before seeing his name in this thread, I had no idea who the hell he was/is.

Therefore, this statement has no basis about ANYTHING to which I have responded.

[

Communist? I take personal offense to this I am a Disabled Vet who proudly served 12 years in the US Air Force.

.

[quote=trsent;139374]I do not believe those with a hidden agenda should be praised for revealing an error found here or there when their errors are never disclosed on the web site even though they do not take credit for their work.

Keep praising the findings of a group bent on revenge for past dealings.[quote]

Again, show me PROOF of a Hidden Agenda? How much more plainly can I spell it out for you? NOWHERE on AA do they direct you to themselves or any other AUTHENTICATOR... they simply point out the errors that hit the market place to make people more informed.

And PLEASE show me an EXAMPLE of where I PRAISED them... the above is not praise - it is simply a FACT.

[quote=trsent;139374]Finally, you attack me for not revealing where I found errors in Steve Koshal COAs? I take full credit for finding those and stand behind them. So what is your stupid issue with this? I signed my post - I posted those images.

I take full credit for them. What is the issue beyond that?[quote]

I asked WHAT the ERRORS are? You Posted a Picture and a COA and said they are obviously fake. Nothing else. No supporting facts (i.e. The J in Joe, slant of the letters, autopen) - NOTHING. JUST your written word.

So YES, YOU posted the images (which could have come from anywhere - you won't reveal your source), YOU say they are fakes (but you give NO explanation on WHY or HOW you determined that), and YES, YOU signed and took credit for your 'FINDINGS' that don't tell anyone anything. I can just go grab two PSA/DNA items I don't like, Post a Picture of each item and each COA and simply state they are obvious fakes. Thats what you did - what would be the difference?

NO Concrete Facts when that is ALL Sammy or myself or anyone else here has asked for...

JUST stating your OPINION doesn't mean anything - as the Teachers always say - PLEASE show examples of your work - like I did with the Griffith Ball... I showed you two obviously different AUTOs both Certified by the SAME Company and I showed youa NON Certified Ball and I explained exactly how I determined it is REAL. WHY can you NOT do the same to support your OPINION that the two items presented are FAKE? Show me another Joe D sig and compare the sigs for me... show me another Apollo auto set and do the same.





And again - I do NOT support Steve Koshal or him being a deadbeat ex husband, etc - and I don't dispute that he probably is a Scumbag... does that mean that the FACTS presented on AA are all BS? While the site may be owned by him, no one has been able to prove that he is the ONLY author and poster on the site...

Again, I don't support the man, but I do support FACTUAL Info that has NOT been disputed or challenged by any of the Authentication companies in question.

I don't know how much clearer I can be on that FACT.

But, I already know that ALL that you will read here is the following:



I would HONESTLY like to know - from ANY other Forum Member - have I been UNCLEAR anywhere in my posts in this thread?

Thanks!

[trsent]

I am sorry, I appreciate your twelve years of service to our country and I am sorry if there was a misunderstanding in our debate. I was not trying to offend you with my debate style.

[MSpecht]

Ok all y'all --- I just spent way too much time (that could have been used trying to find that elusive Doug Gwosdz GU bat) cleaning up this thread from about post 10 or 12 forward.... It would have been easy just to delete the entire thing, but as with some other threads, there is too much good info and valuable debate that is truly educational and enlightening to do that. BUT, as Chris recently posted, alot of energy is being wasted, and content blurred, on some threads because of personal confrontations --- Check out the forum rules and leave out the personalities. Agree to disagree without the name-calling and baiting. I tried to catch whatever I would have objected to if it had been directed to me ( but may have missed some ) and still maintain the important parts of the thread.

For those who may be wondering, "RK principle" is a Rodney king reference--- "Can't we all get along?" It was easier than citing all of the Forum Rule Violations.

Mike jackitout7@aol.com

PS -- I don't have any Gacy paintings, but I do have Rodney's autograph, along with Brenda Spencer's and Charles Andy Williams', and a few others. Hope I don't get called any names because of that.

PPS (or is it PSS?) -- The Clark Griffith post in this thread, along with the logic surrounding it, was very very strong and a classic example of what we have preached for over four years now---do your homework. Thanks for the post.

[xpress34]

Mike -

Thank you and my apologies for letting my emotions get the better of me after taking offense to the one comment which you have now deleted.

And thank you for your comments surrounding my Clark Griffith Ball... it has to be one of my best 'under the radar' grabs on eBay... $25 for a potential $3,200 ball.. wish I could hit that daily!!!

All the best -

Chris

[earlywynnfan]

Chris, maybe this has gone the wrong direction.

PSA/DNA, JSA, Global (oh my!), PAAS (who?) and all the others - They have all made mistakes. Posting those mistakes is not the issue. How they deal with found errors is an issue, but someone who has made errors and sold questionable items for a long time who attacks companies attempting to do well in the industry for personal revenge and doesn't even admit they are the attackers makes for a questionable practice.

The issue is when someone pretending not to be who they are uses errors not to educate the public but for their own ego trip. They don't even admit to their posts - They are a big secret that Chris Nerat uncovered and now you want us to praise their suspect reporting?

Funny thing is the original post about the Deleahanty autograph - Nothing proves this piece is not genuine - Nothing. It is suspect, but no one has proved it not to be genuine with any 100% proof.

To set the record straight, Chris Nerat didn't "uncover" this "big secret." There was an interview several years ago with Koschal, and he told of his affiliation with autograph alert and in the interview directed people towards the site. That's where I first learned about it.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[David]

The number one thing is the accuracy of the articles. If they're accurate, they're accurate.

For readers who are not autograph experts themselves (I am no auto expert, offer no opinion on the Delehanty), then the background, ethics, motives and personal expertise (and error rate) of the writer should be relevant.

I know nothing about Ming vases, but still have the common sense to be wary of the opinion of a Ming vase dealer I know to be of dubious ethics and honesty.

[xpress34]

The number one thing is the accuracy of the articles. If they're accurate, they're accurate.

David -

THAT has been my argument all along! And none of the items brought into question have been challenged by the Original Authenticators - and it's not like AA is some secret subvert underground site that you have to work hard to find - it's out there in the Public sector.


For readers who are not autograph experts themselves (I am no auto expert, offer no opinion on the Delehanty), then the background, ethics, motives and personal expertise (and error rate) of the writer should be relevant.

I know nothing about Ming vases, but still have the common sense to be wary of the opinion of a Ming vase dealer I know to be of dubious ethics and honesty.

I agree with this statement as well, but as I said earlier, there is NO proof that Steve Koshal is writing the postings and blindly believing that he does would be like believing that James Spence PERSONALLY Authenticates EVERY Auto that comes through his company.

Does anyone believe that with the shear volume of autos that his company handles that he alone could possibly handle, research and authenticate each one himself?

Again, I think I would be more leary of AA IF they had links directing me to THEIR OWN Authentication services, but they don't.

All the best -

Chris

[trsent]

To set the record straight, Chris Nerat didn't "uncover" this "big secret." There was an interview several years ago with Koschal, and he told of his affiliation with autograph alert and in the interview directed people towards the site. That's where I first learned about it.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Ken, that is really cool - Please find that article, I would love to add it to my file on Steve Koschal because I have read lots of materials on him and I never saw such an article. It would make for great reading.

I am sorry, when a guy is known for abusing the industry and attacks only a couple of authenticators without revealing any attribution - The site is motivational for personal benefit and everyone can keep praising them - But the truth hurts.

Time and time again this forum finds criminals - Now congratulations for praising a criminal!

The article that started this thread - No one has shown the item not to be genuine, just suspect.

[sammy]

The letter was allegedly written in Philadelphia, PA on Dec. 27, 1899.

1) Mr. Lifson discovered through Delahanty’s biographer that Ed Delahanty was not in Philadelphia in December 1899.

2) James Spence now rejects his own original assessment that the letter is authentic, and now states it is not.

Being as Mr. Delahanty was not in Philadelphia when the letter was allegedly written by him, ........

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________


"The article that started this thread - No one has shown the item not to be genuine, just suspect."

No one has shown Mr. Koschal to be a criminal, just suspect.

[David]

Collectors of Pre-War baseball cards are familiar with the website T206museum.com This site has been around for years, offering information, including valuations on the famous 1909-11 T02 set and rare printing variations. What has long been vexing to T206 collectors is that the owner/writer/publisher of the site refused to say who he was, even to those who communicated privately. The website and information was from an unknown, anonymous source. Well, it has recently been uncovered that the owner has been forging rare overprinted T206s, selling them, submitting them to graders and consinging them to big auctions-- all while writing these informative aricles. For those who don’t follow the cards, overprints (extra prints), variations and errors can command top dollar when rare.

This is an example when a magazine or website is about delicate material, authentication, critiquing others or such, the readers should not only expect, but demand to know the identity, motive and expertise background from the writer/publisher. To readers relying on the information, anonymity should not be an option or acceptable. It can’t be idly dismissed that the writer names others while refusing to divulge his own name. One must ask, if he's hiding his name, what else is he hiding? If the information is so reliable and spot on accurate, then why does he refuse to his name associated with it?

Also note that the T206 website was not considered crackpot or off the wall. Rather it was used by seasoned collectors as an informational source. The number one complaint, or noted idiosyncracy, about the site was the owner bent over backwards to keep anonymous. This is considering that about all other collectors and dealers who love to get due credit for their articles, websites, photo galleries posted online. If a normal collector writes a good and well researched article about H & B bats, he will either put his name on top of the article on his website or insist that publisher assigns his name to the article. Surpressing one's name for a good well researched article is not only rare, but rather strange.

In the below link you will find, amongst other threads on other subjects, recent threads on the forgery and the website:


link (http://net54baseball.com/forumdisplay.php?f=2)

[bobbys]

*

[MSpecht]

THIS THREAD IS NOW LOCKED. OVERALL AN INTERESTING AND EDUCATIONAL DISCUSSION, AND THANKS TO THOSE FORUM MEMBERS WHO CONTRIBUTED IN A PROFESSIONAL AND OBJECTIVE MANNER.

MIKE---