Question For Everyone On Here.........

[DoctorLoomis]

Take a look at all of the undeniable evidence that has been posted in the last 48 hrs concerning bad jerseys in the next GF auction. The auction hasnt even started yet and several jerseys have been PROVEN to be no good! Question is.......why would anyone on here buy anything from GF? Why? I would appreciate some honest feedback..........

[slam]

So, finally after registering 3 months ago to have the ability to bid on their auctions, they final got back to me to declined my ability to bid. I guess after seeing all these bogus items, they are doing me a favor.

[both-teams-played-hard]

I have been a critic of GFC, sense this forum originated. However, in that time, they have sold many incredible jerseys and sports relics. They have also sold many questionable items. It is up to the collector to do his own research and ask questions. It is a mistake to take an authenticator's word for it. Don't forget: jerseys of common players are rarely forged.

[suave1477]

I agree right off the bat you did find some bogus items in your opinion as I wouldn't know I am not a football jersey expert.

I would still consider GF a reputable for the most part auction house. Now I am not saying they are perfect by any stretch of the means but on the baseball side of there things they do get some pretty good quality items.

Just like any other company things can go wrong, things slip through the cracks, something is missed. But the one good thing about them is if they are shown something doesn't seem right they will pull the item off auction with no problem.

Which some auction houses will try to devise a defensive answer why your wrong when it is blaintly in there face it doesn't add up. Or worse like another auction house yes you to death and still leave it up for auction.

I would say there quality stuff does out weigh by far the few bad items that just may slip through.

I have had good experieinces with them and even once I bid/won something from them and when I recieved it in hand for some reason something just wasn't right about the item. I don't know what but something didn't seem right and I wasn't comfortable with it.

I called them up and told them I wasn't comfortable with the item, they said no problem send it back and they refunded my money.

Again this is just my opinion!!

[suicide_squeeze]

DoctorLoomis,

A short answer would be.....because some.....some......of the items they auction off are authentic.

That said (and since I really didn't want to spew venom out about them, so I made a joke on the 'Dickerson' thread), I can't understand for the life om ME why these crooks aren't behind bars.

I have been watching their auctions for years, and they are the most flamboyant B.S. dealers in the business. I mean, at least AMI makes an ATTEMPT to hide the fact they sell forged fake garbage from time to time, and they try to establish SOME sort of doubt that what they are in fact offering as "real" items MAY be. GF just puts absolute GARBAGE out there in MASSIVE NUMBERS and places rediculously shallow descriptions under them, usually speaking of the players greatness, and nothing substantiating the actual item being auctioned off.

Hey, it's a GREAT job if you can get it. Or should I say....get AWAY with it. I have seen no organized effort on the part of a class-action lawsuit brought about by collectors who have been taken by these bums, so why downsize the practice? I think we all know the reason why, too. Fraud is a HARD thing to prove, and hey, after all, if you buy an item you find out to be BAD, it's a whole lot easier to just cut your losses by listing the dung on ebay for some other unsuspecting buyer to have the good fortune to place their ill-suited winning bid on.

I have steered clear of these scumbags for years......but every once in awhile, they do come up with ONE item I may want....one I've done my homework on, and have proven to MYSELF is real. But it still pains me they are seperating me from my "buyers premium"....but that's life in the hobby.

I'm with you on the angst.......GF is dangerous for the guys who don't know a whole lot about what they're bidding on, because they sell bad stuff, and a lot of it.

[suave1477]

DoctorLoomis,

A short answer would be.....because some.....some......of the items they auction off are authentic.

That said (and since I really didn't want to spew venom out about them, so I made a joke on the 'Dickerson' thread), I can't understand for the life om ME why these crooks aren't behind bars.

I have been watching their auctions for years, and they are the most flamboyant B.S. dealers in the business. I mean, at least AMI makes an ATTEMPT to hide the fact they sell forged fake garbage from time to time, and they try to establish SOME sort of doubt that what they are in fact offering as "real" items MAY be. GF just puts absolute GARBAGE out there in MASSIVE NUMBERS and places rediculously shallow descriptions under them, usually speaking of the players greatness, and nothing substantiating the actual item being auctioned off.

Hey, it's a GREAT job if you can get it. Or should I say....get AWAY with it. I have seen no organized effort on the part of a class-action lawsuit brought about by collectors who have been taken by these bums, so why downsize the practice? I think we all know the reason why, too. Fraud is a HARD thing to prove, and hey, after all, if you buy an item you find out to be BAD, it's a whole lot easier to just cut your losses by listing the dung on ebay for some other unsuspecting buyer to have the good fortune to place their ill-suited winning bid on.

I have steered clear of these scumbags for years......but every once in awhile, they do come up with ONE item I may want....one I've done my homework on, and have proven to MYSELF is real. But it still pains me they are seperating me from my "buyers premium"....but that's life in the hobby.

I'm with you on the angst.......GF is dangerous for the guys who don't know a whole lot about what they're bidding on, because they sell bad stuff, and a lot of it.

Suicide I was a bit surprised by your response, I am sorry (even though I have no involvement with them) to hear that you had bad expeirieinces with them. You basically are saying for the most part they are just pumping fake stuff onto the market. I cannot say I agree with this for the most part of the items I have seen them sell over, I would say last 10 auctions or was about 80% to 90 % legit. Again this my opinion. But I cam curious can you point out some of the items that have not been previsouly discussed here that you felt were not up to par?

Even a lot of the items they receive come from the actual players them selves. Again I am by no means saying they are perfect. I am just trying to understand why you feel for the most part they are pumping junk into the market?

[suave1477]

THIS WAS AN EMAIL SENT OUT TO POSSIBLE BIDDERS - WHICH I THINK FURTHER CONFIRMS MY POINT OF THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE THE RIGHT ADJUSTMENTS!!

Dear Collector,
Please be advised that we have made some changes to our upcoming April 29th Auction. Grey Flannel Auctions makes our entire auction available online for previewing one week or so before bidding actually begins. In striving towards impossible perfection, we believe this allows the well-intended bidding public to form their own opinions in a more educated manner. Further, there are times when we feel that removing an item is best, even though we still feel it is authentic. In these cases, we may feel that further research is needed or perhaps a point has been brought to our attention that we agree with. That being said, the following changes have been made on our auction web site and will differ from the printed catalog descriptions.
Lots 253, 278, 288, 292, 307, 316 and 757 have been removed from the auction.

[JETEFAN]

DO YOUR HOMEWORK......every single auction house and even "exclusive" team dealers have all, with no exceptions at one time or another offered bogus items, no one can be an expert on every phase of collecting. Honest mistakes....maybe, but it's up to you to research and make sure of what you are looking at.

George

[nyjetsfan14]

I would say last 10 auctions or was about 80% to 90 % legit.

You believe 20% of the items they are paid to authenticate, promote/market, sell, and generate profit off of are fake? And that makes them in your words "reputable?" This is all very alarming. I would think that for most of us...if we carelessly erred 20% of the time at our place of employment we would be terminated immediately. Do mistakes happen? Absolutely. But, if your estimate is close, is what we see tolerable and/or even legal?

[suave1477]

You believe 20% of the items they are paid to authenticate, promote/market, sell, and generate profit off of are fake? And that makes them in your words "reputable?" This is all very alarming. I would think that for most of us...if we carelessly erred 20% of the time at our place of employment we would be terminated immediately. Do mistakes happen? Absolutely. But, if your estimate is close, is what we see tolerable and/or even legal?

Actually no I said technically as a guess 10% to 20% - I am going by what I have seen pointed out on this forum and items I personally felt questionable. But as I said that is just a guess percentage.
I am sure the real precentage is actually lower.

As far as comparing it to other businesses being done at only 80% - I am not sure that would require anyone to be fired. Most companies expect failure somewhere. That is why they have profit and loss statements to be off set by budgets.

Take for instance cars that are mass produced. Do you know how many cars are put out on to the market with faulty parts? And get called back? Or the parts themselves get called back?
Do these companies go under No. Of course not because they produce over all quality product. So that one car that failed, caused an accident and possibly lives were lost - gets swept under the carpet.
Insuarance money / law suits pay out and everyone goes on with there lives.

This is just a mere hypothetical example before everyone goes crazy on me. I am just making a point that there is failure in companies and if a company has 80% success that is considered a profitable company and is not going to close doors the next day.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Take for instance cars that are mass produced. Do you know how many cars are put out on to the market with faulty parts? And get called back? Or the parts themselves get called back?
Do these companies go under No. Of course not because they produce over all quality product.

Horrible analogy. Just plain horrible. Use Frito-Lay or The Gap as examples. Maybe NIKE or Nabisco. How about Apple or Taco Bell?

[gatorcollector]

I think we're all willing to accept that mistakes are going to be made. No way around it. What I and a lot of others have trouble with is how easy it is to spot so many of these mistakes. Take the Chris Leak jersey as an example. You're Grey Flannel and this jersey has just been offered to you for consignment in your auction. It's presented to you as a game used 2004 jersey. First step: look at photos from 2004. Hmmm, it seems the Gators wore A-Ross commemorative patches in 2004. Next step: Look at jersey. This jersey has no patch. No evidence the patch was ever on there. Step 3: reject jersey.

There's just no excuse for this crap getting through.

[suave1477]

Horrible analogy. Just plain horrible. Use Frito-Lay or The Gap as examples. Maybe NIKE or Nabisco. How about Apple or Taco Bell?

Both teams play hard I am sorry you feel it is a horrible analogy. Do you not like the car industry?

[suave1477]

I think we're all willing to accept that mistakes are going to be made. No way around it. What I and a lot of others have trouble with is how easy it is to spot so many of these mistakes. Take the Chris Leak jersey as an example. You're Grey Flannel and this jersey has just been offered to you for consignment in your auction. It's presented to you as a game used 2004 jersey. First step: look at photos from 2004. Hmmm, it seems the Gators wore A-Ross commemorative patches in 2004. Next step: Look at jersey. This jersey has no patch. No evidence the patch was ever on there. Step 3: reject jersey.

There's just no excuse for this crap getting through.

Gator I 100% agree.

But it seems to some members mistakes are not allowed.

Mistakes are made daily within all our lives, there is no such thing as a company giving absolute a 100% perfection

[byergo]

I don't care if you are talking about major auction houses, ebay, online game used dealer web sites or even buying directly from the leagues: NFL/MLB, directly from the actual teams, or even from individual players directly--there is NO source that puts out only 100% legit game used items 100% of the time. It is counter productive to crucify any entity on this message board. Everyone makes mistakes despite their best efforts, and no authenticator can rapidly authenticate game used items across the full spectrum of professional and collegiate sports with 100% effectiveness.

The best thing any of us can do is become an expert in the subject matter you decide to collect and act as your own authenticator. Ultimately YOU are the only authenticator you can trust 100%.

[gatorcollector]

Everyone makes mistakes despite their best efforts

I guess that's my point. Did they really give it their best effort? If they did, that's a sad statement.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Both teams play hard I am sorry you feel it is a horrible analogy. Do you not like the car industry?
The American car industry makes a piss-poor product and they seem to have trouble going out of business. Please continue Suave...let us not derail this thread to an off-topic bonanza.

[commando]

Here's the problem... GF are passing themselves off not only as an auction house, but as a world-class legitimate AUTHENTICATION SERVICE. Exactly what are they doing when they supposedly "authenticate" an item? What evidence and research made them say, "Yes, this is indeed a game-worn Joe Morris Giants jersey, and here's why..." My God, people on this forum have spent five minutes (and sometimes several hours) looking at photos online and have determined several jerseys are crap. Personally, I have an extensive NFL game collection on DVD dating back to the early 1970s, and I can PROMISE you that the Giants never wore the style of numeral seen on that laughable Joe Morris jersey.

But once again, the question is why did the jersey pass authentication in the first place? We're not talking about a minor detail that was overlooked... Were talking about a style of jersey that was NEVER WORN by the Giants!

Of course the auction will contain legit pieces.... I think we all know that. But in my book, GF's "authentication service" is about as useful as a bottle of Windex in a pigpen.

[otismalibu]

My God, people on this forum have spent five minutes (and sometimes several hours) looking at photos online and have determined several jerseys are crap.

So why would GFC spend time and money researching these pieces, when GUF members have proven, once again, that they will do the work for free?

You might want to publicly present your findings after the auction ends, rather than before it begins. That might make things a little more interesting, down the road. :)

[nyjetsfan14]

So why would GFC spend time and money researching these pieces, when GUF members have proven, once again, that they will do the work for free?

You might want to publicly present your findings after the auction ends, rather than before it begins. That might make things a little more interesting, down the road. :)

Ouch, that's actually a very good point. Considering the auction is only in the preview stage, forum members do the grunt work, GF (or any other like entity) pulls their bad items based on our grunt work, and they make all the money?! Who's fooling who here? Man do I feel low now...

[suicide_squeeze]

A LOT of good posts here...

suave1477,

Off the top of my head, I clearly remember a Ken Griffey Jr. "game used jersey" sold a few years back on GF. I can probably find the item in one of their old catelogs fairly easy....let me know if you want me to take a picture of the auction and post it here....I promise I will if you want to see it.

It was (supposedly) from 1997, a full sleeved white home jersey. There was a short description, stating all the obvious: NOB on back, "proper tagging", the numbers on the back, etc. The usual GF boring-you-to-sleep description. I believe it stated at the end "Completely original and unaltered....".

What was missing, however, was any factual info that these jerseys were only used in the second half of the season, as the basic style of the Seattle Mariners jerseys that particular year was the "vest".

Also, just a tad of a minor oversight: There was no Jackie Robinson 50-year Anniversary patch on the sleeve......worn by every Major League Team to honor the 50 Year mark the color barrier was broken in MLB.

There was no patch.....no patch removal remnants (threads, stitch holes, shadowing or discoloration, etc. It was a no-brainer that that jersey was NOT worn by Griffey during that season. Period.

Yet they sold it....to some poor guy who didn't KNOW any better....some poor collector who, inspired by his love for a player, put his good hard-earned cash on this piece of retail garb because he based his decision to bid soundly on the expectation that this "professional auction house" had the knowledge and expertise to verify the authenticity of this item. Sadly, all this poor guy needed was some basic knowledge of the team, MLB's "patches" and the years they were donned, and the tip that GF is KNOWN for selling lots of items with MORE than questionable heritage like this one.

If you guys have no problem with the big boys continuing down this road simply becuse they "sell some great items" along the way....then I would say you are adding to the problem in the hobby. It's unaccetable. As stated in another thread, why do you think they don't hire the services of a guy like aeneus (did I spell that wrong??:o ) or rudy or ANYONE else (kyle hess comes to mind)?

Because folks......they can't make $800-$1,000 of pure profit they do on these retail pieces being sold as gamers if they can't list em!

DO-YOUR-HOMEWORK! That cannot be emphasized enough....It's GREAT advice people, and worth it's time and effort.

[suicide_squeeze]

I was so rushed to get this in (got to go to bed...I get up EARLY) that I forgot one MAJORLY important fact.....

The REASON I was watchiong that Griffey jersey was because I have always been a fan, and 1997 was the year he won his ONLY AL MVP award.

Not ONE word about that in the description.:eek:

You're going to be selling a jersey of a superstar from his MVP season, and not add that TANTALIZING PIECE OF INFO in the facts???

Hmmmmm..............nice. An oversight you say? C'mon.

I believe the reason they didn't was because they knew the piece was bogus, and just slipped it through the cracks of the catalog to make the bank, without trying to draw any attention to the fact there was NO WAY it was real.

But that's just my opinion.....:rolleyes:

Use the grey matter people....protect yourselves....DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
The auction houses will NOT do it for you.

[suave1477]

I was so rushed to get this in (got to go to bed...I get up EARLY) that I forgot one MAJORLY important fact.....

The REASON I was watchiong that Griffey jersey was because I have always been a fan, and 1997 was the year he won his ONLY AL MVP award.

Not ONE word about that in the description.:eek:

You're going to be selling a jersey of a superstar from his MVP season, and not add that TANTALIZING PIECE OF INFO in the facts???

Hmmmmm..............nice. An oversight you say? C'mon.

I believe the reason they didn't was because they knew the piece was bogus, and just slipped it through the cracks of the catalog to make the bank, without trying to draw any attention to the fact there was NO WAY it was real.

But that's just my opinion.....:rolleyes:

Use the grey matter people....protect yourselves....DO YOUR HOMEWORK.
The auction houses will NOT do it for you.

Suicide all your statements are a 100% true I agree those are major over sights and maybe your right that they knew it wasn't the real thing and tried to push it through knowing it wasn't real.

But saying us as collectors are saying its ok to let things be over seen because there are other good items that come aling with those auctions which in turn worsens the hobby is wrong.

No one here has said it is ok!!

All we are saying is that no one is perfect and it seems you guys forget that some times.

They have an estimated of 850 items up for auction. If 5,10 or even 20 of them is questionable I am nto saying it is ok and yes they should be held accountable. But there is or close too 830 items that are legit. Which percentage wise means less then 5% is bogus.

I REPEAT YES THEY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE NOT A REPUTABLE SOURCE BECAUSE ONE ITEM FELL THROUGH THE CRACKS

BUT REMEMBER NO ONE IS PERFECT

THERE IS NO SUCH PERSON OR COMPANY THAT IS A 100% PERFECT.

(Sorry both teams I have to make another car analogy:p its all i can think of at this tim ein the morning lol lol)

Car Dealerships sell dozens of cars a day some cars may comes with problems.
Is the dealership responsible to take care of the problems after you brought it home and found out something is wrong. Of course!!
Does it make them a not reputable dealership NO it doesn't
As long as you can bring your car back and have the problem fixed everything is ok.
To the point of the U.S. Lemon Law which says in a matter of speaking that any delaership is actually allowed to sell you a car with problems as long as the problems can be fixed by the dealership or reimburse you for the problems that need to be fixed by another mechanic and up to 3 major problems before the dealership is required to take the car back.
(I know this from expeirince with buying a car in New York)

So my point is I am not saying it is ok but as long as the Auction house any auction house takes responsibility for a problem then I personally cannot say they are not reputable.

And as proven here Grey Flannel seems to try to do the right thing by pulling items if it is brought to there attention. Just as when you buy a car and find a problem down the road you point out to them what is broken and the delaership fixes it

[kingjammy24]

the amount of bogus items found in an auction is not the same as the number of bogus items actually in an auction. you're assuming that every single item is caught.

keep in mind that posters on here are doing all of their work via photos alone. there's a ton of things you can't see via the GFC photos. how many more would be found if these items were examined in person? you could easily find hundreds more. your 5% rate could easily balloon up to an unacceptable rate.

as for the car/lemon law analogy where the dealer is required to fix the car after it's sold and eventually may even be required to take the car back, good luck getting GFC to refund a shirt after you've bought it. did you miss this little blurb?" "ALL LOTS ARE SOLD AS IS. ALL SALES ARE FINAL. NO RETURNS". go ahead and test GFC's "lemon law" jason; buy the jeter jersey and a week later tell them the bottom of the russell tag is resewn and you want a refund. see how much of an effort they'll make to fix your problem. after all, it is a "premier lot" so i'm sure they'll take good care of you.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

They have an estimated of 850 items up for auction. If 5,10 or even 20 of them is questionable I am nto saying it is ok and yes they should be held accountable. But there is or close too 830 items that are legit. Which percentage wise means less then 5% is bogus.


troy of mears uses the same line. look, the number of times you've been caught is not the same thing as the number of times you've made an error. there are tons of errors that aren't caught.

"BUT REMEMBER NO ONE IS PERFECT"

noone expects perfection. people expect a decent job.

rudy.

[suave1477]

the amount of bogus items found in an auction is not the same as the number of bogus items actually in an auction. you're assuming that every single item is caught.

keep in mind that posters on here are doing all of their work via photos alone. there's a ton of things you can't see via the GFC photos. how many more would be found if these items were examined in person? you could easily find hundreds more. your 5% rate could easily balloon up to an unacceptable rate.

as for the car/lemon law analogy where the dealer is required to fix the car after it's sold and eventually may even be required to take the car back, good luck getting GFC to refund a shirt after you've bought it. did you miss this little blurb?" "ALL LOTS ARE SOLD AS IS. ALL SALES ARE FINAL. NO RETURNS". go ahead and test GFC's "lemon law" jason; buy the jeter jersey and a week later tell them the bottom of the russell tag is resewn and you want a refund. see how much of an effort they'll make to fix your problem. after all, it is a "premier lot" so i'm sure they'll take good care of you.

rudy.
Rudy no I never said I assumed everything was caught and yes your correct things are prrobably still slipping through and as I have said repeatedly yes they should be held accountable.

All I am saying is they do make some effort to right some wrongs. Whether it is minimal effort or maximum effort, it is some effort which is more then you can say for some other auction houses.

As far as my car analogy I was dead on right about it. In a previous post of mine on this thread I did mention when yes I did win an item from them and after recieving it I was not comfortable with it and they did refund my money.
So my analogy stands as far as my experieince with them!!

[nyjetsfan14]

noone expects perfection. people expect a decent job.

Better yet people expect an honest and sincere effort in performance of one's job and reaching/meeting high standards. To communicate, articulate, and deal with potential customers in good faith while expertly and professionally providing the service they are handsomely paid to do, which is in large part to authenticate. In many instances it takes very little effort/research from forum members (who by the way have other unrelated jobs and do this in their free time) to find blatant and obvious discrepencies with lots. To label oneself as the premeir anything would require premeir effort and premeir results. Does this appear to be premier effort and premier results? Does it seem as if we are seeing good faith interaction? These are simply rhetorical questions that each can answer on their own. I think the positive aspect of this topic is just how valuable and empowering this forum and some of the very valuable members can be, thanks to you all for making me more informed and aware. Happy collecting...

[suicide_squeeze]

suave....

If I buy a new Corvette today, and it comes apart on me.....I now have the warranty backed by the good faith of our United States Government. No joke. Obama said it just a few days ago.

If I buy an item from GF and I am not comfortable with it because I can't find ANY supporting evidence that it's real (in other words, it being what they represented it to be), I am fairly confident 'ol Rick Russek will tell me to pound sand, citing the "ALL SALES ARE FINAL" print on every one of their catalogs.

And if I took it one step further, and walked into their corporate office to argue....I'm sure I would be escorted out the door by a big guy named "Vinnie"......

What they have going on there is an organized farce, scateered with some real nice authentic items to appear like it's all "good".

I truly honestly think you'd be SHOCKED to know the real percentage of items in their auctions that are truly NON-authentic. My guess is over 30%, more likely approaching 40%. For fun, the next time I have a couple of hours to burn, I'll pick through one of their older catalogs and count the items I believe have no business being identified as what they are being represented as.....and see what percentage that is out of the whole auction.

It would be very difficult, but that's the rub. Don't you see?

If we, who REALLY do our homework, are finding so many items to be bad.......how in the WORLD do you expect the many investors/collectors who don't even KNOW about this site, or have the experience and knowledge to persue the ultimate truth about the items offered in these auctions, to figure it out?

They can't.

And that why it's so important for the auction houses to take the time and do their due diligence BEFORE offering these pieces for auction. BECAUSE MANY OF THE PEOPLE PLACING THEIR MONEY ON THEM HAVE NOTHING ELSE TO GO BY BUT THE REPUTATION OF THE AUCTION HOUSE AND THEIR SO-CALLED EXPERTS.

We should come down hard on their "mistakes". No, it's not reasonable to "expect" perfection. But it's also not reasonable to have to constantly worry about the fact that you just bought something that's bad, and the money is unrecoverable.

And another sad truth: You know why most collectors who buy a bad item don't raise hell, fight, cause a scene, come on here and show pictures, threaten the auction house, etc.???.....Because it's easier to just dump the garbage to some OTHER poor collector whocan be duped just as YOU were, and it's over. But if you make a big deal out of it, you'll NEVER get your money back. So the garbage goes ROUND, and round, and round out there. It's a perpetual market of garbage, changing hands as "new discoveries" are made by the collector who tripped upon knowledge previously unknown by him that he has boughten a bad item. Off to ebay!!

It's sad.

But these auctions houses like GF aren't even keeping up with what I would refer to as a "professional level of competence" in evaluating many of the items they auction off. That's basically the whole reason this site exists.

As I have said before, they know what they are doing. They are "making money", and slipping a LOT of garbage through in the process. They aren't honest mistakes. They happen too often to be, and repeat the same mistakes over and over again. Without a universal governing agency of some kind to monitor this "industry".....we only have ourselves to help. And there is a good group of people here to come to for help. Use it! Don't put your faith in an auction house.....you'll get burned sooner or later.

[kingjammy24]

"I never said I assumed everything was caught"

here's what you said:

"They have an estimated of 850 items up for auction. If 5,10 or even 20 of them is questionable I am nto saying it is ok and yes they should be held accountable. But there is or close too 830 items that are legit. Which percentage wise means less then 5% is bogus."

you said that if 20 out of 850 are questionable then that "means less than 5% are bogus". it does not mean less than 5% are bogus. it has no bearing on how many are bogus. it simply means less than 5% have been caught. that's all.

"All I am saying is they do make some effort to right some wrongs. Whether it is minimal effort or maximum effort, it is some effort which is more then you can say for some other auction houses."

hooray for minimal effort. let's pay a hefty buyer's premium for "minimal effort".

"As far as my car analogy I was dead on right about it. In a previous post of mine on this thread I did mention when yes I did win an item from them and after recieving it I was not comfortable with it and they did refund my money. So my analogy stands as far as my experieince with them!!"

your analogy completely misses the mark and i'll tell you why; the lemon law is a formal, legal, published policy. it's not something that dealers apply if they feel like it. it applies to ALL customers. your experience with GFC was an anomaly; an rare exception to the rule that went completely against their formal policy. who knows why richie did it? maybe the birds were singing that day. maybe he just had a nice big piece of gabbagool and was happy. the fact is your experience, unlike the lemon law for dealers, is not GFC's official policy. unlike the lemon law which applies to ALL buyers, your single experience with GFC does not apply to all of their customers. your experience is not GFC's policy. poor old john cherpock had to take them to court:
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/sports/2005/07/24/2005-07-24_the_score_hears___lots_of_gr.html

i can only go by GFC's stated, published policy not whatever rare exceptions to the rule they make for some people but not for others. if GFC's policy is to give refunds then they should publish that and not clearly state that "all items sold as is, all sales final, no returns".

rudy.

[lund6771]

They have an estimated of 850 items up for auction. If 5,10 or even 20 of them is questionable I am nto saying it is ok and yes they should be held accountable. But there is or close too 830 items that are legit. Which percentage wise means less then 5% is bogus.

I REPEAT YES THEY SHOULD BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE NOT A REPUTABLE SOURCE BECAUSE ONE ITEM FELL THROUGH THE CRACKS

BUT REMEMBER NO ONE IS PERFECT

THERE IS NO SUCH PERSON OR COMPANY THAT IS A 100% PERFECT.





I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the ACTUAL figure is over 50%....

some authenticators have been around a long time and have handled many great pieces....authentications are based on experiences and a database....

Roger Gibson consigned a large lot of game used Houston Oilers jerseys and they were all tagged in the collar....a few months later, GF is now selling a Moon that is tagged in the tail?...and no year tag?...there is no way that you can call this slipping through the cracks

my opinion is that a company like GF needs to show a big auction...so they take in and sell a lot of this trash to fill space....the 97 Grifey is perfect example...

[kingjammy24]

If I buy an item from GF and I am not comfortable with it because I can't find ANY supporting evidence that it's real (in other words, it being what they represented it to be), I am fairly confident 'ol Rick Russek will tell me to pound sand, citing the "ALL SALES ARE FINAL" print on every one of their catalogs.

no he wouldn't. just tell them about the time jason got a refund. that's just as solid as the lemon law! something you can take to court with you. "your honor, i know GFC's published policy clearly states "all items sold as is, all sales final, no returns" but awhile back suave1477 got a refund so that's what i'd like to base my case on". if they want evidence, just print out this thread! who needs a legal, published, formal policy when you've got an anecdote of a rare experience some guy once had with GFC?

rudy.

[suave1477]

no he wouldn't. just tell them about the time jason got a refund. that's just as solid as the lemon law! something you can take to court with you. "your honor, i know GFC's published policy clearly states "all items sold as is, all sales final, no returns" but awhile back suave1477 got a refund so that's what i'd like to base my case on". if they want evidence, just print out this thread! who needs a legal, published, formal policy when you've got an anecdote of a rare experience some guy once had with GFC?

rudy.

KingJammy, ok this was unfair and uncalled for.....

First of all I thought we are supposed to give our own opinions and experieinces???

So again that was my experieience with them I cannot speak for how they have treated others.

KingJammy & Suicide just out of curiousity have either of you won or purchased an item from them and when you received it and thought it was questionable asked for a refund? Did they tell you too bad its yours???

All in all no matter what the responsibility is still left in our hands to do the homework?????

[cohibasmoker]

Terrific thread and I'd like to add the following; would you buy stock before researching its performance? Would you get a mortgage on a new home before having a home inspection done? Would you work for a company before researching their mission statement? Would you buy a car from Obama motors before checking the warranty? Would you buy a set of golf clubs before researching them?

I can go on and on with the analogies but when you get down to it, whether the item is on eBay or being offered through a auction house - it all rests on one person and one person alone. As a for example, a few weeks ago, I bought a Seahawks helmet. I looked at it and it looked OK so I bought it. No one told me to use the Buy It Now - I did it and it didn't work out. Whose fault was it? It was mine. No-one forced me to buy it - Period.

Would I like to see a cleaner hobby? Absolutely but what hobby isn't shady? Coins? Stamps? Record memorabilia? Art? They all have their issues. By the way, I'd like to see a better and truthful Congress, President and media. Maybe a few CEO's getting thrown into jail - if they broke the law. At the end of the day – it all comes down to - personal responsibility.

Jim

[kingjammy24]

Terrific thread and I'd like to add the following..

hi jim

i've heard your sentiments echoed by others before; that most of the onus is on collectors. i wonder if this is really how it should be or if this is simply how it's ended up due to a wildly negligent industry. obviously with things the way they are currently, the onus is on collectors, for better or worse. i wonder if the idea seems to absolve dealers, auction houses, and authenticators. ultimately doesn't everyone equally share in the responsibility to perform their due diligence? why does most of it get offloaded onto collectors when its the industry side of things that's getting paid to get this stuff right? all businesses have responsibilities to their customers. i think auction houses have a responsibility to do their due diligence and i think this thread is about that specific failure.

failure by collectors to do their homework doesn't absolve the auction house of the failure to do theirs. shouldn't collectors be able to buy an item from an auction house and have the reasonable expectation that the auction house did their due diligence on the item? is it really unfair for someone who knows nothing about this stuff to be able to buy from GFC or mastro and expect the item is very likely legit?

i've never seen another industry where customers place so much of the responsibility and blame on themselves. sometimes it seems like a war between auction houses and collectors with the former finding new and inventive ways to decieve the latter and collectors fighting tooth and nail simply to avoid getting fleeced. as it stands now you've practically got to be an expert in this stuff and so help you god if you didn't see something in their photos.

i've always been one for doing homework and i think anyone who buys without doing research is an idiot but at the same time don't these businesses have some responsibility in return for the payments they accept? all of us depend on some sort of expertise regularly because we can't all be experts in the things we need so why is this hobby any different?

anyway, as for GFC, richie has said that "authenticating is mostly opinion". if that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about GFC, then i don't know what else to say.

i came across something interesting today. i was perusing the fine assortment of goods at robert edwards auction and stumbled upon this: http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=12689
note the addendum at top. REA is calling attention to the recent discussions of mcauliffe retail offerings to potential bidders on this mcauliffe yaz. i don't know why they're doing that except that they must want any potential bidders to be as informed as possible on the item even if the information could potentially result in a lower hammer price. GFC currently has two borderless 1975+ mcauliffe jerseys on their site. anyone want to ask GFC if they'll follow REA's lead and post a similar addendum on their lots? i think you'll see "minimal effort".

rudy.

[suicide_squeeze]

hi jim

i've heard your sentiments echoed by others before; that most of the onus is on collectors. i wonder if this is really how it should be or if this is simply how it's ended up due to a wildly negligent industry. obviously with things the way they are currently, the onus is on collectors, for better or worse. i wonder if the idea seems to absolve dealers, auction houses, and authenticators. ultimately doesn't everyone equally share in the responsibility to perform their due diligence? why does most of it get offloaded onto collectors when its the industry side of things that's getting paid to get this stuff right? all businesses have responsibilities to their customers. i think auction houses have a responsibility to do their due diligence and i think this thread is about that specific failure.

failure by collectors to do their homework doesn't absolve the auction house of the failure to do theirs. shouldn't collectors be able to buy an item from an auction house and have the reasonable expectation that the auction house did their due diligence on the item? is it really unfair for someone who knows nothing about this stuff to be able to buy from GFC or mastro and expect the item is very likely legit?

i've never seen another industry where customers place so much of the responsibility and blame on themselves. sometimes it seems like a war between auction houses and collectors with the former finding new and inventive ways to decieve the latter and collectors fighting tooth and nail simply to avoid getting fleeced. as it stands now you've practically got to be an expert in this stuff and so help you god if you didn't see something in their photos.

i've always been one for doing homework and i think anyone who buys without doing research is an idiot but at the same time don't these businesses have some responsibility in return for the payments they accept? all of us depend on some sort of expertise regularly because we can't all be experts in the things we need so why is this hobby any different?

anyway, as for GFC, richie has said that "authenticating is mostly opinion". if that doesn't tell you everything you need to know about GFC, then i don't know what else to say.

i came across something interesting today. i was perusing the fine assortment of goods at robert edwards auction and stumbled upon this: http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=12689
note the addendum at top. REA is calling attention to the recent discussions of mcauliffe retail offerings to potential bidders on this mcauliffe yaz. i don't know why they're doing that except that they must want any potential bidders to be as informed as possible on the item even if the information could potentially result in a lower hammer price. GFC currently has two borderless 1975+ mcauliffe jerseys on their site. anyone want to ask GFC if they'll follow REA's lead and post a similar addendum on their lots? i think you'll see "minimal effort".

rudy.

Rudy,

As usual, great comments. I highlighted my favorites, and have the following comments.

You exposed the "fly in the ointment" about Richard Russek's "philosophy" on authenticating.

I'll take it one step further and flat out say the guy doesn't give a s#!t about collectors and what they actually end up with in their collections.... as long as it's bringing in profits and lining his pockets. "Cash in, garbage out" should be their mantra...


REA is a class outfit. They CARE. Robert Lifson cares. Even if they don't totally agree with an "opinion", they do their best to bring about the FULL PICTURE for collectors to arm themselves with as much knowledge as possible before having to make a decision whether to bid on an item. I have the utmost respect for them for their efforts, and they should be commended in the industry for trying to do it "right".

I also have knowledge that they (REA) have sold a few, and I mean just a small few, items that, through law enforcement investigations, turned out to be fraudulent.

How do you think they handled it?


They contacted the winning bidder(s) of the items (LONG after the auction was done and gone, paid for and settled, item shipped and received by the winning bidder, and consigner paid) and asked them to return the item for a full refund.

You would no doubt get the same treatment from Hunt Auctions, most likely Lelands, probably Mastro of old and Heritage Auctions.......but highly doubtful from AMI or GF Auctions.

Hopefully threads like these will change that by placing direct pressure on the open wounds in this industry....thereby forcing them to "heal"....

We'll see.

But "accepting" a percentage of garbage being sold through their auctions should never be downplayed or viewed as "part of the deal" by the collecting public. They would LOVE us all to be more complacent about the fact they pass off baddies.....I for one will never accept it. They should be held responsible in every single case.

Steve

[cohibasmoker]

So why would GFC spend time and money researching these pieces, when GUF members have proven, once again, that they will do the work for free?

You might want to publicly present your findings after the auction ends, rather than before it begins. That might make things a little more interesting, down the road. :)

Bingo - Why help any auction house out? Post the findings AFTER the auction ends and let the auction house(s) be responsible for making it right.

Jim

[kingjammy24]

Take a look at all of the undeniable evidence that has been posted in the last 48 hrs concerning bad jerseys in the next GF auction. The auction hasnt even started yet and several jerseys have been PROVEN to be no good! Question is.......why would anyone on here buy anything from GF? Why? I would appreciate some honest feedback..........

anyway, to answer the original question, it's my experience that, for most collectors, if they spot a piece they want they really don't care who they're buying from. they take things on a piece-by-piece case. i once asked the very same question of ASI/ESM. why would anyone in their right mind buy from someone like brad wells or scot monette? same answer. collectors simply wade through all the garbage to get the piece they want. they figure anyone, even broadway rick, can occasionally get 1 legit piece and they figure they'll be able to suss it out. if you look at GFC's auction, there've got to be at least 3 legit pieces somewhere in there right?

rudy.

[ironmanfan]

anyway, to answer the original question, it's my experience that, for most collectors, if they spot a piece they want they really don't care who they're buying from. they take things on a piece-by-piece case. i once asked the very same question of ASI/ESM. why would anyone in their right mind buy from someone like brad wells or scot monette? same answer. collectors simply wade through all the garbage to get the piece they want. they figure anyone, even broadway rick, can occasionally get 1 legit piece and they figure they'll be able to suss it out. if you look at GFC's auction, there've got to be at least 3 legit pieces somewhere in there right?

rudy.

I have to agree with Rudy. I have to admit that I've even gotten some good things from Coaches Corner.

[suicide_squeeze]

Of course Rudy's right.

You can't become one of the major auction houses by offering nothing but fakes out of the shoot?

But as time goes on, and you have that good reputation to fall back on, hey, slipping in a few fakes here and there ain't that bad of an idea, right?
That equates to solid profit from unsuspecting collectors who trust these scumbags......er.....highly respected caring individuals.

The bad news for these auction houses is......there weren't enough superstars in all of the sports world over the years who wore enough of these "holy grails" to have an endless supply available to support 3-4 auctions a year for all of them and line all of their pockets. So how do they fill the void? Enter "baddies". Let the know-nothing fans/collectors figure out what's real and what isn't.

It's been working for them for years......why change now?

[aeneas01]

Take a look at all of the undeniable evidence that has been posted in the last 48 hrs concerning bad jerseys in the next GF auction. The auction hasnt even started yet and several jerseys have been PROVEN to be no good! Question is.......why would anyone on here buy anything from GF? Why? I would appreciate some honest feedback..........

why would anyone buy from gfc?

because imo many collectors know that some auction houses, including gfc, have spent years and years developing relationships with private collectors that own extraordinary items. and because imo many collectors know that some auction houses, including gfc, jump on planes to personally meet with these type of collectors in order to talk them into consigning with them, in order to bring top shelf quality items to auction.

if i wanted an ironclad photo-matched game worn super bowl helmet i would buy from gfc given that's what they had in the len dawson gamer they had which fetched $40,000 last year. if i wanted a no-doubt-about-it heisman trophy i would buy from gfc given that's what they had in the charles white trophy which fetched $300,000. if i wanted a willis reed jersey or a dr. j aba jersey with what appeared to be solid provenance i would buy from gfc as well...

and i would buy from heritage even though they were prepared to offer a "namath sb game used helmet" with a starting bid of $50,000 which didn't even belong to namath. why? because heritage also gets their hands on some tremendous items. i would also buy from american memorabilia, despite their problems, because they have offered some truly incredible vintage game used football helmets in the past. the same goes for hunt even though they sold two unitas "gamers" totaling close to $100,000 which i'm convinced were never worn by unitas.

alas...

anyway i think it's pretty interesting (disturbing?) how this grey flannel auction has played out so far given that gfc has taken an absolute beating depsite what appears to be (at least to me) an effort on their part to get in step with what collectors want - a chance to preview items and ask questions...

btw i really don't know why any auction house would continue to bother with authentication nonsense, or imply/claim that lots have been thoroughly examined and/or photo/style matched. i mean the jig is up. collectors know how much time is required to authenticate huge lots, they know what's involved, they know auction houses have expanded beyond their areas of expertise, they know that "rock solid" provenance isn't always rock solid and they know what to look for or know who to ask. and those collectors that are still in the dark, well they're becoming more and more aware after each passing auction.

as such, why would auction houses keep up the pretense? why would they continue to make wild claims? it only hurts auction houses in the long run imo. auction houses should simply say that the lot was presented to them as once worn my x player (if applicable), that supporting documentation/provenance has been furnished by the seller (if applicable), inform the buyer that given the inherent difficulty of authenticating such items it is strongly recommend that interested parties research what has been presented to ensure satisfaction, and add that links to research tools can be found in the customer protection section (links to image sites, forums, etc.).

too ebay? perhaps. but imo it wouldn't look at all like ebay once it took hold, once it became clear that quality items were offered which would be reflected in the hammer prices. this would happen because collectors know what they're looking for and will bid accordingly - and those still in the dark would catch on quickly.

.....

[nyjetsfan14]

why would anyone buy from gfc?

because imo many collectors know that some auction houses, including gfc, have spent years and years developing relationships with private collectors that own extraordinary items. and because imo many collectors know that some auction houses, including gfc, jump on planes to personally meet with these type of collectors in order to talk them into consigning with them, in order to bring top shelf quality items to auction.

if i wanted an ironclad photo-matched game worn super bowl helmet i would buy from gfc given that's what they had in the len dawson gamer they had which fetched $40,000 last year. if i wanted a no-doubt-about-it heisman trophy i would buy from gfc given that's what they had in the charles white trophy which fetched $300,000. if i wanted a willis reed jersey or a dr. j aba jersey with what appeared to be solid provenance i would buy from gfc as well...

and i would buy from heritage even though they were prepared to offer a "namath sb game used helmet" with a starting bid of $50,000 which didn't even belong to namath. why? because heritage also gets their hands on some tremendous items. i would also buy from american memorabilia, despite their problems, because they have offered some truly incredible vintage game used football helmets in the past. the same goes for hunt even though they sold two unitas "gamers" totaling close to $100,000 which i'm convinced were never worn by unitas.

People often do what is best/pleasing for the self rather than the whole (me included). It would take organization, sacrifice, and a "set" to truly change the hobby's current state of affairs but you are correct in that when most see an item they think they just have to have they'll buy from nearly anyone.

alas...

anyway i think it's pretty interesting (disturbing?) how this grey flannel auction has played out so far given that gfc has taken an absolute beating depsite what appears to be (at least to me) an effort on their part to get in step with what collectors want - a chance to preview items and ask questions...

If you read Mr. Cavalier's recent post it might seem as if the forum members are the ones who actually are taking the beating in the end. I guess money always talks. Did somebody get leaned on? Are forum members (who, according to the post, possibly need babysitting) being too inquisitive/revealing and thus disturbing the traditional standards (good or bad - you decide) by which items are authenticated, marketed, sold, and profited from? Shhhhh, we shouldn't speak of such things as it could result in a ban.

btw i really don't know why any auction house would continue to bother with authentication nonsense, or imply/claim that lots have been thoroughly examined and/or photo/style matched. i mean the jig is up. collectors know how much time is required to authenticate huge lots, they know what's involved, they know auction houses have expanded beyond their areas of expertise, they know that "rock solid" provenance isn't always rock solid and they know what to look for or know who to ask. and those collectors that are still in the dark, well they're becoming more and more aware after each passing auction.

as such, why would auction houses keep up the pretense? why would they continue to make wild claims? it only hurts auction houses in the long run imo. auction houses should simply say that the lot was presented to them as once worn my x player (if applicable), that supporting documentation/provenance has been furnished by the seller (if applicable), inform the buyer that given the inherent difficulty of authenticating such items it is strongly recommend that interested parties research what has been presented to ensure satisfaction, and add that links to research tools can be found in the customer protection section (links to image sites, forums, etc.).

too ebay? perhaps. but imo it wouldn't look at all like ebay once it took hold, once it became clear that quality items were offered which would be reflected in the hammer prices. this would happen because collectors know what they're looking for and will bid accordingly - and those still in the dark would catch on quickly.

This would insinuate that e-Bay doesn't offer quality and legitimate items which just isn't the case (I have personally, and I know I am not alone, picked up many a great authentic item using e-Bay. As a matter of fact MANY of the legit items seen in auction houses were scored on e-Bay than flipped!)). If I choose to sell an item from my collection on my own (possibly via e-Bay or some other method i.e. the forum for sale section) - not wishing to pay a third party hammer fee or not feeling I need their supposed "expert" authentication - that doesn't make the item any less quality or legitimate. The reason these institutions generate so much revenue is because some collectors are under the impression they are offering and, by means of authentication, garaunteeing legitimate and authentic items (they advertise as much). After what we read here recently that might not necessarily be the case... What seperates current auctions from e-Bay?

It will become more and more irrelevant for modern items...there will be little to no need for a third party to sell an item with a League, Team, or Player COA because the authentication is already done and one can sell the item on his/her own based on the items own merits. I still don't understand investing big $ in a recent/modern item without that type of league, team, or player provenance.

......

[kingjammy24]

i really don't know why any auction house would continue to bother with authentication nonsense....why would auction houses keep up the pretense? why would they continue to make wild claims? it only hurts auction houses in the long run imo. auction houses should simply say that the lot was presented to them as once worn my x player (if applicable), that supporting documentation/provenance has been furnished by the seller (if applicable), inform the buyer that given the inherent difficulty of authenticating such items it is strongly recommend that interested parties research what has been presented to ensure satisfaction, and add that links to research tools can be found in the customer protection section (links to image sites, forums, etc.).
　
too ebay? perhaps. but imo it wouldn't look at all like ebay once it took hold, once it became clear that quality items were offered which would be reflected in the hammer prices. this would happen because collectors know what they're looking for and will bid accordingly - and those still in the dark would catch on quickly.
.....

without authentication, buyers wouldn't pay as much. i guarantee you that dawson gamer would've gone for less on ebay. why is that? because of the perception amongst buyers that the auction house has authenticated the item. similar or identical items consistently fetch more at auction houses than their counterparts do on ebay. premier lots make for nice press releases but the majority of an auction are items you can often find elsewhere minus the hefty premiums. perception drives the premiums. remove the authentication and you remove the perception. hammer prices fall. once hammer prices fall, consigments fall. after all, if your dawson gamer won't fetch much more at an auction house than on ebay, why pay the 20% sellers premium? you're better off on ebay. prices fall, consigments fall, profits fall, the auction house falls.

how is it that the houses manage to procure premier lots? by telling the consigners they'll get a higher price for their item. well if you remove the authentication, you won't get a higher price (after the 40% house slice is removed) which means you won't get the premier consignment. they'd be operating on razor-thin margins. ebay can operate on 2% fees because they do volume. how's an auction house going to survive on 2% fees?
without the authentication layer, what could an auction house offer over ebay? 1/1000th of the potential audience?

authentication also helps deflect or absolve guilt/blame. eg: it's not the auction house who screwed up, it's lou. we're not liable, lou is. where's lou? noone knows, sorry. beautiful. it's a black of hole of accountability. a perfect way to deal with an irate buyer who's demanding answers. lou's there when you need a facemask changed or a whimsical story concocted but when it comes to standing behind his work, he disappears. the funny part? i bet if someone ever confronted him about one of his pieces, he'd say "talk to the auction house. they're in charge of refunds". it's a deliberate maze set up to exhaust and infuriate angry buyers. each side points to the other and says "it's his fault". if you get rid of lou, they have noone else to point the finger at. he's a perfect and much-needed scapegoat.

lastly, ebay doesn't really provide much of a laundering opportunity for those pumping out crap. on ebay, sellers sell direct. there's a paper trail. ebay has mechanisms to fight fraud. sellers have public ratings and feedback. you try to dump a shirt on ebay and GUF is on it like white on rice broadcasting it to thousands of collectors. it's hard out there for a pimp! an auction house, on the other hand, is the perfect place to dump your garbage because they'll keep your identity a complete secret. noone will know you're the one dumping that short-sleeved manning. look at GFC's current football debacle. they may as well just close the entire football section down. what do you think the odds are that most of those bad shirts came from a single entity just dumping their garbage anonymously? i've seen ebay sellers shut down, suspended, etc. i've seen ebay cooperate in law enforcement investigations against sellers. if the auction houses get rid of authentication, what similar claim can they make that they're protecting consumers? have you ever heard of a consigner banned for consigning crap?

rudy.