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allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 05:44 PM
I bought over a dozen game issued 2008 Yankees jerseys from Steiner. I just got the box and popped it open. 1 Joba jersey and 1 Mariano jersey had an odor when I took them out of the bag. Then I saw some dirt marks on them. I bought a game used Ivan Rodriguez which also was similar.

I called my Steiner rep Charles Stabile and he said Congrats, they were probably taken out of their locker and marked game issued. The tags are crisp so I am thinking 1 games use.

I know people have bought game used that appeared to be game issued but what about game issued that appeared to be light use game used?

19159

19160

19161

19162

yanks12025
03-02-2009, 05:52 PM
So now do i have to bid on all their game issued jersey's hoping they were marked wrong.

kingjammy24
03-02-2009, 06:08 PM
hey andrew

given the big difference in price (and profit) between game-issued and game-used i'd think that most sellers would be very diligent in discerning the two. most of them seem to err on the side of saying something has use when it doesn't. of course, the reverse is possible. rare though i imagine.

re: the dirt stains
could be possible that the dirt stains occurred in storage and/or collection? maybe they had some cleats pushed against them or some such.

the "odor" is more compelling. if there's an odor and the dirt hasn't been washed off, i'm guessing if they were game-used then they're unwashed. would the "steiner process", whatever it is, sell unwashed jerseys? i'd try to find out when the jerseys were actually pulled because the idea here is that they were used and before the team could launder them, steiner pulled the unwashed jerseys from the locker. seems to happen a lot more in football than baseball. steiner must've pulled them very shortly after a specific game.

rudy.

trsent
03-02-2009, 06:24 PM
Rudy, what makes you think Steiner "pulled" anything?

Is Steiner in the locker room pulling jerseys or does the team give them jerseys after the game, event and season? I would bet the team gives the items to Steiner, but I could be wrong. It would be neat to know the process.

I always assumed that Steiner doesn't have a game used process such as that of MeiGray, but they could have changed it or I could be wrong.

Andrew, from what you seem to have, there would be no issues for you to assume you have some game used jerseys, but I do not know how you could sell them without a full recap of all details.

I think people would love to have your game issued jerseys!

camarokids
03-02-2009, 06:28 PM
maybe someone was eating ice cream or a candy bar while "processing" the jerseys???

as far as the smell, someone could have tried them on who didn't use their right guard that day???

or maybe you got lucky, an extra b-day present??

markize
03-02-2009, 06:43 PM
Andrew,

now that i see those jerseys, i think i could kick myself. i was contacted by a steiner rep about a jeter game issued jersey that was selling for $700. i passed as i would rather have a game used jersey. i saw that rivera jersey on their website about a week ago (if its the same jersey). nice haul!!

mark

gnishiyama
03-02-2009, 06:51 PM
I have had the same "problems" ( in this case is a potentially good problem ) but the problem is convincing your buyer (and perhaps even yourself) that you have a real game used jersey unless you can positively photo-match it. Perhaps you should retain the services of Kyle to see if you can photo-match it.
The problem is if I can't photo-match it, then I just have a dirty issued jersey. My Japanese customers when buying an issued jersey want something that is clean and mint. Its hard to explain to them that the jersey is dirty from just being mishandled.
My biggest problems with Yankee-Steiner items is those damn holograms that don't just won't adhere to the item!
Goh Nishiyama

gnishiyama
03-02-2009, 06:56 PM
Rudy,
Steiner oftentimes sells un-washed game used jerseys.
Check out my Robinson Cano 2008 9/21/08 Final Home game used pants
that I have on ebay right now. (shameless plug :))
They are filthy!
Goh

JETEFAN
03-02-2009, 07:13 PM
A good friend of mine had the same issue a couple of years ago and was told by his Steiner rep that it was a common occurrence. It's soiling transfer from handling the game used bats, helmets, cleates etc. along with the issued stuff as it's being collected. I have also seen it many times on "issued" items. At least that was Steiners story, makes sense. The issue is as the last poster points out, what's on the paperwork. tell yor rep to send you new "Game used" paperwork along with his congrats.....

George

shafrancollectibles.com
03-02-2009, 07:21 PM
There is no way Steiner would re-cert it as Game Used nor should they. The tags are crisp as can be. The dirt marks could be explained in a variety of ways, both in favor of game use or against it as it could easily be a handling issue either before Steiner got it or within their own warehouse. What if someone buys a game issued jersey and manufactures their own "use" to it with some dirt somewhere down the line? Unless you find 100% photomatch proof of the dirt marks in game action, I can't see how it can be sold as game used.

To offer it as a game used jersey, when the Steiner COA states game issued, would be a bit mis-leading and/or deceptive.

bottomofthe9thonline
03-02-2009, 07:29 PM
If Steiner were willing to re-cert this jersey as game used, a horrible precedent would be set that could cause monumental problems to the game used hobby. Anyone could pick up a game issued jersey for a fraction of the price as a legit gamer and “doctor” it into being game used. We know sellers that move product without integrity play this game already. Why would Steiner EVER be willing to re-cert an item because of a few dirt marks and absolutely not one shred of evidence to prove this jersey was actually game used? This jersey should be pulled from auction as it is clearly labeled in a misleading fashion.

allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 08:31 PM
There is no way Steiner would re-cert it as Game Used nor should they. The tags are crisp as can be. The dirt marks could be explained in a variety of ways, both in favor of game use or against it as it could easily be a handling issue either before Steiner got it or within their own warehouse. What if someone buys a game issued jersey and manufactures their own "use" to it with some dirt somewhere down the line? Unless you find 100% photomatch proof of the dirt marks in game action, I can't see how it can be sold as game used.

To offer it as a game used jersey, when the Steiner COA states game issued, would be a bit mis-leading and/or deceptive.

Who said anything about re-certing the jersey? The COA says Game Issued. May 2nd shows the same placement of #'s however I can't see the patches.

shafrancollectibles.com
03-02-2009, 08:38 PM
The issue is as the last poster points out, what's on the paperwork. tell yor rep to send you new "Game used" paperwork along with his congrats.....

George

This was the quote I referred to when commenting on the possibility (or lack thereof) of having an item re-certed.

bottomofthe9thonline
03-02-2009, 08:41 PM
Who said anything about re-certing the jersey? The COA says Game Issued. May 2nd shows the same placement of #'s however I can't see the patches.

Here is the front of the jersey from May 2, not your jersey. NY is not even close to matching up. http://uspresswire.com/image/2828411

Glad to hear you are not asking to have the jersey re-certed, but you have the jersey listed as Game Used in the title of your eBay auction... you don't believe this to be mis-leading? Label it as game issued, with a slight chance that in your opinion that it could have been mis-documented by Steiner and was perhaps maybe acutally used in a game. To list it game used, espcially in your title is very misleading.

allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 09:16 PM
Here is the front of the jersey from May 2, not your jersey. NY is not even close to matching up. http://uspresswire.com/image/2828411

Glad to hear you are not asking to have the jersey re-certed, but you have the jersey listed as Game Used in the title of your eBay auction... you don't believe this to be mis-leading? Label it as game issued, with a slight chance that in your opinion that it could have been mis-documented by Steiner and was perhaps maybe acutally used in a game. To list it game used, espcially in your title is very misleading.


The jersey was $1,000 as a game issued on Steiner's site. This won't even reach that amount as i won't let it and have noted the auction will be ended early. Should I sell an issued jersey with armpit smell or send it back to Steiner? I offered to give it back to Steiner and my rep told me to keep it and he said Congrats as it happens both ways.

I just bought from him a jersey of a player picked up after July that didn't have the Murcer armband, mistakes happen. You can call Charles Stabile to confirm this.

This Mariano Rivera game issued jersey (unknown year) is on Steiner's site for $500 + 15% fee

http://auction.steinersports.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=102810057&prmenbr=55076099&aunbr=103156767

500goals
03-02-2009, 09:25 PM
Maybe that will make up for all of the game worn items with no wear that they sell. Raifie

allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 09:32 PM
Maybe that will make up for all of the game worn items with no wear that they sell. Raifie

LOL. This shows no wear except for 2 stains and a definite armpit smell.

gnishiyama
03-02-2009, 09:35 PM
I have to agree with the bottomofthe9th on this one. I'm surprised at AllStarsPlus on this one, that he would risk ruining his good reputation in this business listing the jersey as game-used. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that his intent is to attract bidders to his items so they can carefully read the description and come up with their own conclusion. I feel that itself is wrong since not all buyers are as educated as some of us are with game-used memorabilia and by reading Allstars title and description a somewhat uneducated buyer may easily be lead to believe that it is indeed game-used, with less of a possiblity that its not (why would there be dirt marks and odor if it were not used??).

I'm not saying there isn't a possibility that the jersey was used but more proof
needs to be presented to be allowed to be listed as GAME-USED. Theres no place for that maybe, maybe not game used in this hobby, especially from someone as good as reputation as AllStarsPlus.

Goh Nishiyama

bottomofthe9thonline
03-02-2009, 09:45 PM
Offering to end the auction at $1,000 because that was Steiner's retail price does nothing... do whats right and change the title and description and list the jersey as game issued with a possibility of being game used (a very slim and undocumented possibility). Agreeing to sell a game issued jersey that Steiner wholesaled at retail price while still listing it as game used in the title is still not right.

allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 10:06 PM
Goh - I originally listed it that way because I 100% believe it was worn at some point. With that said, I now have changed the auction title to game issued although I feel strange about that. Never have I received a game issued with armpit stink, but like Goh said, reputation is important and I am always fair. I thought the description was fair already.

Someone is going to get a nice jersey and I am afraid someone may lose the LOA and this will become a game used jersey like so many have.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts.

Vintagedeputy
03-02-2009, 10:13 PM
I dont need to see the jersey in person. If Andrew says that the jersey appears to have game use stains and underarm smell, that's good enough for me.

Andrew wouldnt list it as GU if he didnt believe it.

jppopma
03-02-2009, 10:14 PM
I don't see why people are putting Steiner's error onto Andrew? If he keeps the jersey as game issued, he will have to explain the wear on it. What buyer would want to buy a game issued jersey with a story about there being wear on it... So people are suggesting that Andrew eat the fact that he would have a hard time reselling this jersey? Puts him in a bad spot.

On the issue of them recertifying the jersey, I do not see that it would set a president. Andrew is a top notch dealer with a stellar reputation, Steiner should take that into account and be able to see that he is not trying to pull a fast one. I am sure that he has done enough business with them that they are comfortable with his observations and concerns. To any other person, or dealer in lesser standing...they could say yeah right deal with it. Steiner is who issues the LOAs and really can put whatever they feel on them (how many jerseys are listed as game worn with stiff tags and no use...). Now, if Andrew returns the jersey to them for a refund based on the error -- who is to say that the jersey wont' end up back on their site in three days listed as game used with a LOA to boot??

In general, I have seen jerseys from Steiner and even from the teams themselves with a variety of errors. Game issued with team use, the common used with no use, and even time where they are listed as the wrong year (or player based on number). It all goes on and you just have to be able to explain what it is that you have. Good luck with the jersey Andrew.

allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 10:29 PM
maybe someone was eating ice cream or a candy bar while "processing" the jerseys???

as far as the smell, someone could have tried them on who didn't use their right guard that day???

or maybe you got lucky, an extra b-day present??

Not a birthday present as I bought all the remaining inventory of 2008 home jerseys that the wholesale group had for the purpose of reselling.

I am probably going to spray it with Febreeze as someone may be offended getting a jersey they expect to be "new" that has a smell.


On the issue of them recertifying the jersey, I do not see that it would set a president. Andrew is a top notch dealer with a stellar reputation, Steiner should take that into account and be able to see that he is not trying to pull a fast one. I am sure that he has done enough business with them that they are comfortable with his observations and concerns. To any other person, or dealer in lesser standing...they could say yeah right deal with it. Steiner is who issues the LOAs and really can put whatever they feel on them (how many jerseys are listed as game worn with stiff tags and no use...). Now, if Andrew returns the jersey to them for a refund based on the error -- who is to say that the jersey wont' end up back on their site in three days listed as game used with a LOA to boot??



All great points, but I won't even ask Steiner to do that as it left their warehouse as game issued. I have actually returned jerseys they have made mistakes on and have an Ivan Rodriguez without an armband I have to return as it wasn't worn by him.


I dont need to see the jersey in person. If Andrew says that the jersey appears to have game use stains and underarm smell, that's good enough for me.

Andrew wouldnt list it as GU if he didnt believe it. I think I feel better changing the description back to game issued as it isn't worth the hassle.

bottomofthe9thonline
03-02-2009, 10:32 PM
"So people are suggesting that Andrew eat the fact that he would have a hard time reselling this jersey? Puts him in a bad spot."

Yes, your right... So lets give anyone a free pass to mis-represent a jersey so they have no problem selling it to someone who doesn't do all their homework.

I have nothing against AllStarsPlus and commend him for editing his auction.

gnishiyama
03-02-2009, 10:38 PM
Andrew,
In my mind you did the right thing. Its just not worth the potential trouble it may bring. If I had your jersey, I would just return it unless I can positively photomatch which should not be that hard with all the Yankees photos available through Getty, AP, USPress, etc.

As for your comment

Someone is going to get a nice jersey and I am afraid someone may lose the LOA and this will become a game used jersey like so many have.I'm a bit confused on what that means since you originally listed as game used and you 100% believe so.

As for Vintage

I dont need to see the jersey in person. If Andrew says that the jersey appears to have game use stains and underarm smell, that's good enough for me. Andrew wouldnt list it as GU if he didnt believe it.That's a lot of blind trust in an item. Andrew already stated he'll sell the jersey for less than $1000. You collect Yankees right? Why don't you buy it? $1000 for a Mo jersey!? THAT'S A STEAL! Everyones happy!!


Now, if Andrew returns the jersey to them for a refund based on the error -- who is to say that the jersey wont' end up back on their site in three days listed as game used with a LOA to boot??Valid point but what Steiner does later will not be resting on Andrew's reputation or conscience

Regardless I think you did the right thing and its obvious you have been for a long time since you have tons of supporters.
Goh

camarokids
03-02-2009, 10:38 PM
Not a birthday present as I bought all the remaining inventory of 2008 home jerseys that the wholesale group had for the purpose of reselling.

I am probably going to spray it with Febreeze as someone may be offended getting a jersey they expect to be "new" that has a smell.


I was only kidding, I should have put a smilie.

Definitely not a bday present due to the hassle it is giving you.

Try and return it due to the potential headaches...

Good luck....

jppopma
03-02-2009, 10:48 PM
Just curious Bottomofthe9th, What would you do if you were in Andrew's shoes? Say you purchases a game issued jersey from Steiner and it came showing dirt all over and smelling like a$$. Like I said, you as the buyer are placed in a very bad spot by Steiner. Would you sell it like he is and risk taking a loss on it based on the discrepencies? Would you return it to Steiner? Finally, what would you do if Steiner would not take the return since it has left their control (they show game issued...)? Like I said, I'm just curious your take on it, not baiting or bashing or anything. Thanks.

bottomofthe9thonline
03-02-2009, 10:48 PM
Again, I have nothing against Andrew... but this comment is troubling:

"Someone is going to get a nice jersey and I am afraid someone may lose the LOA and this will become a game used jersey like so many have."

This is exactly what you were stating it was originally in the auction.

allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 10:55 PM
Again, I have nothing against Andrew... but this comment is troubling:

"Someone is going to get a nice jersey and I am afraid someone may lose the LOA and this will become a game used jersey like so many have."

This is exactly what you were stating it was originally in the auction.

You seem to now be attacking me and I don't appreciate it. I know the jersey was used, but I was being fair and posting the pic of the LOA that clearly stated GAME ISSUED and mentioned all the facts in the description.

You are now trying to bait me into something and I won't allow you to as I changed the title before any bids were made.

I put this thread up here for opinions and Goh made some great points. You have all my contact information so call me if you want to discuss this further.

bottomofthe9thonline
03-02-2009, 10:58 PM
Just curious Bottomofthe9th, What would you do if you were in Andrew's shoes? Say you purchases a game issued jersey from Steiner and it came showing dirt all over and smelling like a$$. Like I said, you as the buyer are placed in a very bad spot by Steiner. Would you sell it like he is and risk taking a loss on it based on the discrepencies? Would you return it to Steiner? Finally, what would you do if Steiner would not take the return since it has left their control (they show game issued...)? Like I said, I'm just curious your take on it, not baiting or bashing or anything. Thanks.

Absolutely... The very first thing I would have done was try and photo match the jersey, not rush to put it on eBay. Like others have stated this can be done somewhat easily as you have the numbering and logos as well as patches to aid in helping to photo match the jersey. Honestly, I would hope like hell I was able to find a photo match because then yes it would have been a gift in disguise that would make any collector happy. If the jersey is photo matched, you can throw out the Steiner cert and use the photo match as your authenticity, what better proof can you have. But if I failed to match the jersey, the only evidence I can rely on now is that the jersey has a stain and smells... there are a million factors that could explain this... only one of them being it was worn by Mariano in a game.

Now I am in the situation Andrew is currently in. What would I do you ask? I would do exactly what he has done after revising the auction. Sell the jersey as GAME ISSUED with the possibly of maybe being game used, all while being clear to point out that a photo match was not found and their is currently no supporting evidence I could offer to back the jersey as game used other then the smell and dirt.

bottomofthe9thonline
03-02-2009, 11:02 PM
You seem to now be attacking me and I don't appreciate it. I know the jersey was used, but I was being fair and posting the pic of the LOA that clearly stated GAME ISSUED and mentioned all the facts in the description.

You are now trying to bait me into something and I won't allow you to as I changed the title before any bids were made.

I put this thread up here for opinions and Goh made some great points. You have all my contact information so call me if you want to discuss this further.

Not my intent at all. Now that the title has been changed, I have no problems with the way the jersey is listed. Best of luck.

allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 11:13 PM
I just got a call from someone who saw this thread and said the COA says "Arm Band" and this jersey doesn't have one so they probably mixed up the jerseys.

I missed that, but at this point the auction has bids. Maybe Kyle can find a photomatch which would be very cool.

I will hold off hitting it with Febreeze.

jppopma
03-02-2009, 11:22 PM
Andrew, Kyle is the man for the photomatching! Here are a couple of pics that show the numbers lined up pretty close. They look like they are all lined up with the pinstripes. Best of luck! John

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/81029223.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1933F549535AE5A47FC8D06732D2B0969B6 E30A760B0D811297
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/81168841.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1933F549535AE5A47FCE6EE60C38B21C0FC A46BB8D1E5A89175
http://cache1.asset-cache.net/xc/81643759.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934B869679A269F9CC52BB94860F48EA90 E30A760B0D811297

gnishiyama
03-02-2009, 11:26 PM
Andrew,
This will be my last post in this thread since I see you changed the title of your listing which is all I wanted to see to begin with.

However why don't you just end the auction, and try your best to photomatch this jersey using every resource out there? You might have a potential gem in your hand. If this indeed was an error on Steiner's part why should anyone besides you benefit from their error?

Goh

allstarsplus
03-02-2009, 11:49 PM
Not my intent at all. Now that the title has been changed, I have no problems with the way the jersey is listed. Best of luck.

How can you sell this as Game Used without a photomatch or Steiner COA? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330302949545

Are you so sure of your provenance that you can call it game used?

How would you like me to question you and say I have never seen use patterns like that before on a Jeter bat?

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones is my point. You don't know me, and I don't know you, but this isn't a way to get to know each other.

Rboitano
03-02-2009, 11:57 PM
That Jeter bat doesnt look good to me. I wouldnt touch a modern Jeter or Arod LVS that wasnt double dipped to begin with. By modern I mean a 2001 to the present labeling. And the pine tar looks funky.

bottomofthe9thonline
03-03-2009, 12:15 AM
I’m not sure why an educated discourse on hobby matters is turning into a tic-for-tat case of my item vs. your item - if the COA states GI on a jersey, that is how it should be sold unless proven otherwise - that is my simple point. This will be my last post, best of luck with your jersey.

suicide_squeeze
03-03-2009, 12:26 AM
Andrew,
This will be my last post in this thread since I see you changed the title of your listing which is all I wanted to see to begin with.

However why don't you just end the auction, and try your best to photomatch this jersey using every resource out there? You might have a potential gem in your hand. If this indeed was an error on Steiner's part why should anyone besides you benefit from their error?

Goh

My, my........what a thread.

Andrew, I think this is the most enlightening suggestion from a guy who has it right.

Try to photo match it before you let it go. It's no big deal to end the auction early......in fact, it would help explain exactly WHY you ended it early......because of the issues discussed here (possible factors of game use evident).

And by the way, members......if YOU all think Steiner's COA's are God's word......then I think you all need to spend a bit more time reading these posts. They make numerous mistakes.

Hopefully this is one in your favor, Andrew.

suicide_squeeze
03-03-2009, 12:32 AM
I’m not sure why an educated discourse on hobby matters is turning into a tic-for-tat case of my item vs. your item - if the COA states GI on a jersey, that is how it should be sold unless proven otherwise - that is my simple point. This will be my last post, best of luck with your jersey.



........And GREAT JOB with that extremely questionable bat!!!

yanks12025
03-03-2009, 06:12 AM
jppopma,
I looked at video from that game and the front dont match up.

allstarsplus
03-03-2009, 08:46 AM
That Jeter bat doesnt look good to me. I wouldnt touch a modern Jeter or Arod LVS that wasnt double dipped to begin with. By modern I mean a 2001 to the present labeling. And the pine tar looks funky.

The use around the branding looks suspect too. BottomOfThe9th certainly lives in a glass house. That was just a recent auction.

Then this Negative on fake balls:


HAD TO FILE PAYPAL CLAIM. COULD NOT VERIFY BALL W/TRISTAR.RETURNED FOR REFUND.clublevelinc6ra3 (http://myworld.ebay.com/clublevelinc6ra3) ( 8460 (http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=clublevelinc6ra3)http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/icon/iconGreenStar_25x25.gif)
Nov-23-08 13:00

Reply by bottomofthe9thonline (Nov-23-08 13:21):

I GIVE HIM A FULL REFUND +S/H AND I GET NEG FEEDBACK? THIS GUY IS A SCAM & LIAR!
Follow-up by clublevelinc6ra3 (Nov-23-08 14:06):

PAYPAL ISSUED REFUND.HE SENT VULGAR EMAIL.WE HAVE IT ON FILE.NO CERT FOR 1 BALL!
-- (#330283464220d

bottomofthe9thonline
03-03-2009, 08:56 AM
Unbelievable! I get called out as personally attacking you after raising serious questions about the way you have an item listed, doing it all in a professional and informative manner- which apparently set you on a mission to try and blemish my character as you have stooped to an amazing new low by posting the ONE negative comment I have received in 10+ years of selling on eBay when you know nothing about the history of that transaction.

bigtime59
03-03-2009, 08:57 AM
At this point, with so many "issues" surrounding the jersey, I'd end the auction early "due to errors in the listing", contact the bidders to explain why, and look for photo matches before re-listing. (Because you have sooooooo much time on your hands! :D ).
One question: do the holograms match up between the jersey and the letter?

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com

allstarsplus
03-03-2009, 09:19 AM
Unbelievable! I get called out as personally attacking you after raising serious questions about the way you have an item listed, doing it all in a professional and informative manner- which apparently set you on a mission to try and blemish my character as you have stooped to an amazing new low by posting the ONE negative comment I have received in 10+ years of selling on eBay when you know nothing about the history of that transaction.

It's not unbelievable. You come on to this Forum and go on the attack so you opened yourself up to scrutiny.

I have 9+ years on eBay and never any negatives and in my business never one return and never one unhappy person on this Forum.

From the many emails I have received, I appreciate the support as the description is crystal clear. The LOA was photo'd and says "Game Issued" but also has a major inconsistency as it says "Arm Band". The jersey stinks. It obviously isn't the same jersey that the LOA describes.

In the end, someone is going to get a great Mariano Rivera jersey. Maybe it was only used while he sat in the bullpen. Maybe someone can photomatch it to a game that Mariano pitched in. It is light use nonetheless, just like so many Steiner Yankee jerseys I have sold before as game used because the LOA says game used and were purchased as game used. The point I made about the Ivan Rodriguez I just got from them and this jersey is honest mistakes happen.

Now for you BottomOfThe9thOnline, how can you sell that Jeter bat as game used? In my opinion, that bat is very questionable.

allstarsplus
03-03-2009, 09:22 AM
At this point, with so many "issues" surrounding the jersey, I'd end the auction early "due to errors in the listing", contact the bidders to explain why, and look for photo matches before re-listing. (Because you have sooooooo much time on your hands! :D ).
One question: do the holograms match up between the jersey and the letter?

Mark
bigtime39@aol.com

Yes, same holograms. I added that to the jersey description.

MarinersFan34
03-03-2009, 10:37 AM
And by the way, members......if YOU all think Steiner's COA's are God's word......then I think you all need to spend a bit more time reading these posts. They make numerous mistakes.

Hopefully this is one in your favor, Andrew.


Gotta agree here, so far this whole thing is all based on a COA, a 3 cent sheet of paper with text on it. Forget what the item looks like or smells like in this case, that paper is the end all be all. Dang.. LL was onto something, all his stuff is golden, what were we all thinking to question any of it. Nobody ever makes mistakes, COA's are THE final word.

I have an item from Steiner that says GI, but has some marks/stains on it. Doesn't smell that I can tell from opening the bag but it's some pants so I'm not jamming my nose into some pants issued or otherwise. I bought them as issued and if I ever sold them, I'd list them as issued but have the extremely small possibility of being worn once as they are not pristine.

I guess it all depends on people's persepectives and their full discloure of items they sell. The COA on any item I buy is one small piece of the equation but by no means is the asolute single piece of provenance that determines what the item is.

joelsabi
03-03-2009, 10:37 AM
Andrew,
This will be my last post in this thread since I see you changed the title of your listing which is all I wanted to see to begin with.

However why don't you just end the auction, and try your best to photomatch this jersey using every resource out there? You might have a potential gem in your hand. If this indeed was an error on Steiner's part why should anyone besides you benefit from their error?

Goh

andrew,

first i think your description of the item has as much disclosure as possible and i commend you for initiating this post prior to posting the item on ebay.

maybe ending the auction would be nice until you find a photomatch. who ever is in possession of the item holds the risk until a photomatch can be found. whoever has the risk will reap the rewards when the photomatch is found.

i would hold off on using the fabrege while others here hunt down photo for you but then again how does the bo affect the photomatch? :D


i am one of those people that wants a pristine jersey for a game issued item so i hope this is found to be game used.

good luck.

joel

DonFan23
03-03-2009, 01:03 PM
Unfortunately I don't have enough time now to write the lengthy post that this thread deserves, but here are a few quick points to note:

1 - To Joel's point, Steiner does not opperate like MeiGray, with locker room access, tagging what comes off a player's back as it happens. They receive/pcik up shipments from the Yanks and do their best from there.

2 - As Brad noted, Steiner will not re-cert due to an error on their part, no matter how improper the original was. I unfortunately have personal experience with this one as well. However, shifting their process on this would cause more problems in the long run (for a larger pool of items that could then be brought into question) than it would remedy.

3 - As BOT9 (Andrew's biggiset critic in all this) said himself and as we all preach "...do your homework." I can't tell you how many mislabeled YS LOAs I've seen, including those of items in my own collection. "Minty" items with crisp tags whose LOAs state "game used" and vice versa, are all too common.

Last week I received a "game issued" pair of pants that have holes in the rear bottom above the elastic hem where the player would hook the pants beneath his rear spikes.
I have a "circa 2000 game issued home jersey" (player attribution) that couldn't possibly be a 2000 due to the tagging, etc, that shows light use, and that I've photomatched to 2002 regular season and postseason game use by a more-than-inconsequential player.
The list goes on and on, just speaking of items that have passed through my hands or are still in my collection.
On ebay right now are at least a half dozen items in my watchlist that the sellers likely used the LOAs to come up with their titles, but can't possibly be as listed just based on a cursory examination solely based on the limited photos posted (with no further info or pics requested from the seller).Not faulting the sellers on those in the last bullet, as they're listing the items as the LOAs read. However, is it only on the buyers to do their homework? Don't people fault the auction houses with regularity for not doing their homework, but now Andrew is suddenly at fault for doing his?

Knowing enough to come to a conclusion about the authenticity and use characteristics of an item (or lack thereof) isn't meant only for proving that something reported as game worn is not or cannot be. Sometimes it's the other way around. Life is a two-way street, and so is game used collecting.

allstarsplus
03-03-2009, 01:17 PM
andrew,

first i think your description of the item has as much disclosure as possible and i commend you for initiating this post prior to posting the item on ebay.

maybe ending the auction would be nice until you find a photomatch. who ever is in possession of the item holds the risk until a photomatch can be found. whoever has the risk will reap the rewards when the photomatch is found.

i would hold off on using the fabrege while others here hunt down photo for you but then again how does the bo affect the photomatch? :D


i am one of those people that wants a pristine jersey for a game issued item so i hope this is found to be game used.

good luck.

joel


Joel - Great points, but I have 5 bids and already emails from people wanting to outright buy it so at this point so I will let it run its course and if someone comes up with a photomatch then they will get a steal because even if the bids go above $1,000, the winner will only have to pay $1,000 or I may stop it early and award it to the high bid at that point.

There is a home game issued 2008 on eBay for $1,100 so I know someone will be getting a great jersey no matter what. I had purchased 2 Mariano's so I do have another pristine game issued never used 2008 Mariano so I would allow the winner to take that if they want a non-smelly.


http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38.l1313&_nkw=mariano+rivera+game+issued&_sacat=See-All-Categories

On a related note, BottomOfThe9th called me this morning and the conversation was much better than the back and forth on here. He is a major Mariano Rivera collector and said his interest in this jersey was to be fair to all potential bidders. I am fine with that as I always want full disclosure. There is nothing to hide here and never was as I took great photos and described it clearly.

In a strange turn, I saw the auction Goh has for last worn pants by Cody Ransom and Kyle's photomatch to say it is NOT the right pants so it is amazing again with items you think are one thing and really are another and they have MLB holo and Steiner COA so maybe he changed pants during the game. Goh, are you going to stop your auction as Kyle Hess has shown those are not the pants for the final out. http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=23654

http://cgi.ebay.com/CODY-RANSOM-GAME-USED-PANTS-FINAL-OUT-2008-YANKEE-JETER_W0QQitemZ120384569826QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_D efaultDomain_0?hash=item120384569826&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4%7C65%3A3%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1309

BULBUS
03-03-2009, 01:53 PM
As Brad noted, Steiner will not re-cert due to an error on their part, no matter how improper the original was. I unfortunately have personal experience with this one as well. However, shifting their process on this would cause more problems in the long run (for a larger pool of items that could then be brought into question) than it would remedy.

RJ,

I have seen Steiner re-cert a jersey. I sold a jersey that was clearly not what the LOA stated and the buyer was able to get a new LOA issued that better described the jersey.

-Chris

gnishiyama
03-03-2009, 01:55 PM
Andrew,
Its already ended. Kyle saved me from a lot of trouble.
The pants are for sale if anyone is interested.
Thanks
Goh

allstarsplus
03-03-2009, 02:47 PM
Andrew,
Its already ended. Kyle saved me from a lot of trouble.
The pants are for sale if anyone is interested.
Thanks
Goh Goh - Rumor has been that the players got to wear 2 jerseys for the game so maybe 2 pairs of pants too.

I also have 4 pairs of pants from the Final Game that I got from Steiner, but haven't attempted any photo matches. Kyle Hess is amazing at these photomatches as he doesn't let a stitch go un-noticed.

DonFan23
03-03-2009, 02:52 PM
RJ,

I have seen Steiner re-cert a jersey. I sold a jersey that was clearly not what the LOA stated and the buyer was able to get a new LOA issued that better described the jersey.

-Chris

Chris,

Agreed. In my haste I didn't go into enough detail. What I was referring to in my original post was where the LOA notes "game issued" where game use is clearly evident, as was apparently the case with Andrew's jersey.

Regards,

R.J.

joelsabi
03-03-2009, 03:08 PM
Goh - Rumor has been that the players got to wear 2 jerseys for the game so maybe 2 pairs of pants too.

I also have 4 pairs of pants from the Final Game that I got from Steiner, but haven't attempted any photo matches. Kyle Hess is amazing at these photomatches as he doesn't let a stitch go un-noticed.

i found two ransom pants for that day. LH167415 and LH167369

allstarsplus
03-03-2009, 03:10 PM
Chris,

Agreed. In my haste I didn't go into enough detail. What I was referring to in my original post was where the LOA notes "game issued" where game use is clearly evident, as was apparently the case with Andrew's jersey.

Regards,

R.J.I didn't even ask the question but my Rep said they would only re-cert it to correct the "Arm Band" that isn't on the jersey and would leave it at "Game Issued".

allstarsplus
03-03-2009, 03:14 PM
i found two ransom pants for that day. LH167415 and LH167369

There you go and great work to confirm that rumor. Goh's pants were the LH167369.

gnishiyama
03-03-2009, 03:17 PM
Andrew,
I never knew that information about the 2 jerseys. That makes sense. It also would make a lot more sense that Cody would actually keep those pants himself. Had I known I would of done more research before creating such a bold listing.

Anyways I also have up for bidding right now a game used un-washed Robinson Cano pants from that same game >

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=120384572367

If believe I have a solid photomatch and I have listed as so so if anyone (KYLE) can prove these are not the exact pants please let me know asap.

Here are the pics. (please note pinstripes by the belt loop, front zipper, rear posterior)

shafrancollectibles.com
03-03-2009, 03:20 PM
i found two ransom pants for that day. LH167415 and LH167369

LH 167415 are actually authenticated as Batting Practice Pants from 9/21/08 - a pair I had and subsequently sold.

joelsabi
03-03-2009, 03:20 PM
There you go and great work to confirm that rumor. Goh's pants were the LH167369.

LH167415 are batting practice pants maybe taken off after the pregame ceremonies.

joelsabi
03-03-2009, 03:37 PM
Goh - Rumor has been that the players got to wear 2 jerseys for the game so maybe 2 pairs of pants too.

I also have 4 pairs of pants from the Final Game that I got from Steiner, but haven't attempted any photo matches. Kyle Hess is amazing at these photomatches as he doesn't let a stitch go un-noticed.

at least mariano rivero wore 2 game used pants for mariano rivera for that day.

LH167373 and LH167402

no other player has two pants listed.

and bernie williams pants says game used in the mlb database :D

allstarsplus
03-03-2009, 03:37 PM
LH 167415 are actually authenticated as Batting Practice Pants from 9/21/08 - a pair I had and subsequently sold.

Do you know anything about the rumor that Yankees players wore 2 jerseys during the Final Yankee Stadium game?

shafrancollectibles.com
03-03-2009, 03:42 PM
I have heard that same rumor and believe it to be true - I did not purchase any player's jerseys from the last game because of that. I did, however, buy 3 coach's jerseys which showed tremendous use.

jdr3
03-07-2009, 12:38 PM
I was at Andrew's house last night and there is no way you could fake the smell that is on the Rivera jersey. He had one other that had a funk on it also. The shirts must have been in the same car that was in the Seinfeld episode with a stench.

kingjammy24
03-07-2009, 01:13 PM
I was at Andrew's house last night and there is no way you could fake the smell that is on the Rivera jersey. He had one other that had a funk on it also. The shirts must have been in the same car that was in the Seinfeld episode with a stench.

hey jim

i don't think anyone thinks that the smell is 'faked', seeing as how andrew acquired the shirts directly from steiner.

i think the issue is that the two signs of possible wear could possibly have been transferred to the jersey via collection methods rather than actual use. i don't know how the yankees or steiner collect these things but is it possible that they just toss a bunch of items into a bag and take them away to sort out later? if the jersey was in a bag with other well-used jerseys then the smell could've transferred. i've accidentally put good shirts in with smelly shirts in my laundry hamper and the good shirts ended up smelling. if it was with things like cleats or bats then some of the dirt could've rubbed off. or, steiner could've made a mistake and andrew got a gamer.

the deeper issue i think is that with this new practice of sometimes wearing a jersey for only a couple of games, the traditional signs of wear are no longer applicable. whenever i look for wear on a jersey, i look for puckering on the mfr tag, curling flag tags, faded tagging, puckering on the team script and numbers, loose buttons, pilling, fading of the sleeve trim. these things take time to occur and you're not going to get them on a jersey that was worn once or twice. so when you've got a team or league trying to market the hell out of its shirts and selling them after only a few games, what do you end up looking for to discern game-issued from game-used? if steiner had washed the rivera jersey, then there'd be no dirt and no stench and what signs would andrew be left with then? would the shirt be noticeably different from a game-issued shirt? obviously, you need more than just the provenance as this case has shown.

at the end of the day, it was a mess for the customer (andrew) and it shouldn't have been. steiner told him congrats, keep the shirt. nice way of saying "we made an error and don't feel like fixing it. let's just pretend it never happened".

rudy.

allstarsplus
03-07-2009, 03:02 PM
I was at Andrew's house last night and there is no way you could fake the smell that is on the Rivera jersey. He had one other that had a funk on it also. The shirts must have been in the same car that was in the Seinfeld episode with a stench.

That road jersey that stanked was an Ivan Rodriguez game used jersey that there was no question on as it was purchased as a game used and the LOA is game used, but good for comparison as that one was very stinky too.

It was good seeing you last night and thanks for doing the smell test. lol ;)

allstarsplus
03-07-2009, 03:11 PM
hey jim

i don't think anyone thinks that the smell is 'faked', seeing as how andrew acquired the shirts directly from steiner.

i think the issue is that the two signs of possible wear could possibly have been transferred to the jersey via collection methods rather than actual use. i don't know how the yankees or steiner collect these things but is it possible that they just toss a bunch of items into a bag and take them away to sort out later? if the jersey was in a bag with other well-used jerseys then the smell could've transferred. i've accidentally put good shirts in with smelly shirts in my laundry hamper and the good shirts ended up smelling. if it was with things like cleats or bats then some of the dirt could've rubbed off. or, steiner could've made a mistake and andrew got a gamer.

the deeper issue i think is that with this new practice of sometimes wearing a jersey for only a couple of games, the traditional signs of wear are no longer applicable. whenever i look for wear on a jersey, i look for puckering on the mfr tag, curling flag tags, faded tagging, puckering on the team script and numbers, loose buttons, pilling, fading of the sleeve trim. these things take time to occur and you're not going to get them on a jersey that was worn once or twice. so when you've got a team or league trying to market the hell out of its shirts and selling them after only a few games, what do you end up looking for to discern game-issued from game-used? if steiner had washed the rivera jersey, then there'd be no dirt and no stench and what signs would andrew be left with then? would the shirt be noticeably different from a game-issued shirt? obviously, you need more than just the provenance as this case has shown.

at the end of the day, it was a mess for the customer (andrew) and it shouldn't have been. steiner told him congrats, keep the shirt. nice way of saying "we made an error and don't feel like fixing it. let's just pretend it never happened".

rudy.

Someone came up with a good possibility that hadn't been mentioned which was maybe it was worn outside of the stadium for a promotion and got some stink and he put it back in his locker. Who knows....

Since I have kept it out of its bag, the smell isn't as strong. Jim Reed smelled it from the inside of the jersey in the armpit area and smelled the stank and a scent of cologne which I thought maybe was deoderant. In any case, probably not a transfer of stank as it is in both armpit areas only, but it is one of those mysteries that may never be unraveled unless Mariano himself had a recollection which is doubtful.

Much appreciated that a good person like Jim Reed subjected himself to the sniff test and didn't pass out. It was funny seeing a grown man smelling someone else's stank. THANKS JIM!

thomecollector
03-07-2009, 06:47 PM
Great pickups , Andrew ! Way to go. Now, if you could only uncover some long lost Thome items ! :D