Staubach Fake Finally Finds A Home....

[aeneas01]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=120376954046

ebayer dalcowbill has been floating this staubach fake for years and it appears that he has finally hooked some poor soul to the tune of $2,800 in a "best offer" ebay deal. i suppose the bright side is no one ever jumped on his "buy it now" price of $9,500.

years ago dalcowbill listed this thing, signed by staubach, with a "buy it now" price of $525. but despite having the dumb luck of tracking down an incorrectly dated getty image that seemed to support the lid, his staubach reproduction didn't move. yet dalcowbill's lucky streak wasn't over - he eventually tracked down staubach at a show and was actually able to convince staubach of the helmet's authenticity - further, he was able to get staubach to sign a letter attesting to this claim.

now armed with an incorrectly dated getty image and a letter from staubach, dalcowbill boldy relisted the lid with a "buy it now" price of $9,500. after months and months of no takers the "buy it now" price was lowered to $6,500. eventually a "best offer" was added which produced an offer of $2,800 which has apparently been accepted.

the skinny on the fake sold by dalcowbill:

1. it's a riddell suspension helmet with a date code of 1975
2. staubach stopped wearing a riddell suspension helmet after the 1972 season
3. from 1973 through the time he retired staubach wore a clearshell maxpro helmet
4. the getty image used by dalcowbill to support his helmet was incorrectly dated (1975)
5. the getty image used by dalcowbill is actually from the 1971 season

as i mentioned earlier, dalcowbill had the good fortune of finding a incorrectly dated getty image that shows staubach wearing a suspension helmet in 1975 - this was great luck given the 1975 date code of his reproduction helmet. the problem is the getty image is actually from the 1971 season, should have been dated 1971, during which time staubach did indeed wear a suspension helmet.

using the search term "roger staubach 1975" at getty, all returns except one show staubach sporting his clearshell maxpro helmet - this makes perfect sense given that by 1975 staubach had been wearing a maxpro for 3 years running. in fact staubach switched from a suspension helmet to the better padded maxpro helmet because of his recurring concussion issues. the only image returned showing staubach sporting a suspension helmet is the image dalcowbill used to pitch his lid, an incorrectly dated image, something dalcowbill perfectly understands.

here are two getty images that are supposed to be from the same 1975 playoff game between the cowboys and vikings - both images are dated 1975 and both are described as the same 12/28/75 nfc divisional playoff game. the image on the left is the incorrectly dated image used by dalcowbill, the image on the right is correctly dated and from that game. notice the difference in the cowboys jerseys - the image on the left shows numbers on the sleeves, the image on the right shows numbers on the shoulder pads. 1973 was the last season the cowboys sported numbers on the sleeves of their road jerseys - so how could the image on the left, dalcowbill's supporting image, be from the 1975 season? and, of course, the image on the left shows staubach sporting a suspension helmet and the image on the right shows him sporting his maxpro - that's because the left image is from 1971 and the right image is from 1975.

how long before this fake makes it to the big auction houses?


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/rs.jpg

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[lund6771]

This guy belongs behind bars

[otismalibu]

Is there part of a white stripe on the picture on the left at the bottom of his left sleeve? Maybe different socks too?

[aeneas01]

This guy belongs behind bars

the guy often gets his hands on authentic, quality game used items and therefore will most likely continue to conduct business as usual - especially considering that even though most collectors hate crooked dealers it seems that more than a few are willing to give such dealers a pass when they get their hands on something the collector really wants, something obviously legitimate. frankly i don't know how a collector could ever trust such dealers given that greed obviously drives them...


Is there part of a white stripe on the picture on the left at the bottom of his left sleeve? Maybe different socks too?

yes there are several details that indisputably show that the photo on the left is from earlier than 1975 (the year the helmet in question was manufactured) and was dated incorrectly by the wire service. for example the size of the vikings horns - by 1975 the vikes' horns had taken on a slimmer, more streamlined shape when compared to the early 70s - this can be seen when comparing the two photos. frankly i think the vikes should return to those classic, larger horns - they were great...

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[lund6771]

all part of the scam

[slats7]

Nice "forensic" work by Aeneas. The pants alone should have set off alarm bells, since they got significantly bluer after the 1973 season. Prior to that, they were almost grayish blue. The pic on the left is from the divisional playoff game vs Minnesota in 1971.

Speaking of suspicious Staubach auctions, take a look at this one:

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?auctionid=112&lot=1398

The thumbnail they provide isn't that big or clear, so it's hard to evaluate the jersey in great detail. To the naked eye it looks like it could be the "Hail Mary" jersey (serif font, proper nameplate lettering, screenprinted numbers, etc.), but because of it's more or less pristine condition, that would mean that someone had it washed or dry cleaned.

[gwh11]

The original catalog picture is much better and, as much as you can make an assessment from just using photos, it does appear that this indeed was the jersey Staubach wore in the "Hail Mary" game.

The description states that it was nabbed by a sideline/stadium worker after the game. Nonetheless, someone did wash it afterwards and the ripped hole that is quite visible in the game film ("inside" the front number 2) was repaired after the game.

Guy

[yosef777]

I am sorry to hear that someone got 'taken' on that Staubach helmet. I also contacted the seller about a year ago and tried to explain the same thing Aeneas01 was describing but to no avail as the crook wouldn't listen. Only thing I would add is that Staubacch's original clearshell was actually a Marietta which soon after became MaxPro. Same helmets but different names. It was similar to the way MacGregror became Kelley (via a transfer of ownership).

[yosef777]

Also, didn't Staubach wear the large foam snubber on his Riddell not the typical small, vinyl version?

[cards-bats]

I would keep a lookout to see if the buyer/seller leaves feedback for the transaction and try to contact the buyer that way. It may be too late to do anything, but it would be worth a shot.

[slats7]

The original catalog picture is much better and, as much as you can make an assessment from just using photos, it does appear that this indeed was the jersey Staubach wore in the "Hail Mary" game.

The description states that it was nabbed by a sideline/stadium worker after the game. Nonetheless, someone did wash it afterwards and the ripped hole that is quite visible in the game film ("inside" the front number 2) was repaired after the game.

Guy

Well, for $17K, it better be the real thing.

[slats7]

Also, didn't Staubach wear the large foam snubber on his Riddell not the typical small, vinyl version?

He definitely did in 1971. He missed most of 1972 with a shoulder injury, save for the last two playoff games, so I'm not sure if he was still wearing it. The foam "snubber" was gone for good by 1973.

[aeneas01]

Only thing I would add is that Staubacch's original clearshell was actually a Marietta which soon after became MaxPro. Same helmets but different names. It was similar to the way MacGregror became Kelley (via a transfer of ownership).

very true - in 1973 staubach switched from a tk suspension helmet to a kineomatic clear shell helmet, but for the first few years the kineomatic was sold under the name "marietta" and subsequently under the name "maxpro". i've read that maxpro purchased marietta in 1978 but i believe the deal went through earlier, around 1976.


Also, didn't Staubach wear the large foam snubber on his Riddell not the typical small, vinyl version?


He definitely did in 1971. He missed most of 1972 with a shoulder injury, save for the last two playoff games, so I'm not sure if he was still wearing it. The foam "snubber" was gone for good by 1973.

staubach did sport the stock small rubber snubber during his rookie year but it was gray, the white snubbers and rivet gaskets had yet to be introduced. he then switched to the wider white snubber the following year, a snubber which many cowboys used including calvin hill, mel renfro, etc. - he never did sport the stock small white snubber. here's a link that discusses the helmet before dalcowbill got staubach to sign a letter stating that it was his gamer:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=10018&highlight=staubach

as far as the jersey is concerned: so what's the deal, it was swiped from the sideline and then subsequently repaired? if this is the case, i guess it's not a team repair - wouldn't this decrease the value? anyone that collects vintage football helmets has heard the stories of helmets belonging to great players being swiped - there's a well known story about a helmet and a dumpster. but these stories tend to remind me of the restaurant/bar stories in that, more than often, they seem a convenient alternative to legitimate provenance.

btw i would think if staubach removed his shirt after the game, to put on a flak jacket, he would have removed his shoulder pads at the same time. rather than battling with a jersey, it's much easier to just undo the shoulder pad straps and remove both the shirt and pads together, in one fell swoop - this affords a convenient way to tote them to the locker room.

anyway, the whole thing strikes me as quite a reach - a jersey that looks identical to what he wore the following two weeks against the rams and steelers - and during the regular season. nope, this shirt is not any of these jerseys, it's the one he wore during that very famous "hail mary" game.

here's staubach in the three postseason games of 1975 - from left to right: against the vikes (hail mary game), against the rams the following week and against the steelers in the super bowl.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zzrs01.jpg

here's the jersey compared to a couple of photos from the "hail mary" game:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/zzrs02.jpg

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[slats7]

I'm less and less convinced that this was the Hail Mary jersey (or any jersey from the '75 season), mainly because of the nameplate. In the auction photo, the letters that spell out "STAUBACH" are tightly bunched, especially the letters AUB and UBA. Here's some screengrabs of Roger warming up a week later before the game vs. the Rams:

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-78-vlcsnap-357848.png

And here he is in Super Bowl X:

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-78-92034007.jpg

Notice how much space there is between all of the letters.

Now take a look at the auction jersey:

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-547-zzrs02.jpg

No comparison to the previous two examples. Also, the number "12" appears to be too high on the front of the jersey, and the sleeves a tad too short. Likewise, the numbers and nameplate appear to be navy blue, whereas the Cowboys used royal blue. Something tells me someone got ripped off.

[gwh11]

I like these discussions; significant pieces, even if they've been sold years ago, should be worthy of scrutiny.

Kind of an odd story that goes w/this jersey; I think it's more useful to see if the jersey stands on it's own merits, using any available visual resources.

I would think that the jerseys used in the subsequent games would be different, since the "Hail Mary" jersey would have that noticable rip/repair on the front. I'll see if I can post some video stills from that game. The nameplate seems to match up (in the "Hail Mary" game, I mean).

Guy

[slats7]

I would think that the jerseys used in the subsequent games would be different, since the "Hail Mary" jersey would have that noticable rip/repair on the front.

Oh, of course. But the Cowboys used those wide-lettered nameplates during most of the 1970s. It makes no sense that he'd suddenly have bunched letters on his jersey for the "Hail Mary" game, and then revert to the normal style the next two games. The equipment manager wouldn't be that erratic/sloppy.


I'll see if I can post some video stills from that game. The nameplate seems to match up (in the "Hail Mary" game, I mean).

That should end the debate once and for all. I have that game on a DVD somewhere, but can't find it.

[gwh11]

Here are a couple of shots of Staubach from the "Hail Mary" game. Compare the alignment and spacing of the letters on the nameplate to the one in the Lelands photo. What do you think?
Guy

[slats7]

Here are a couple of shots of Staubach from the "Hail Mary" game. Compare the alignment and spacing of the letters on the nameplate to the one in the Lelands photo. What do you think?
Guy

Thanks for hunting down the screengrabs. I guess I'm still bothered by the nameplate lettering. The letter alignment in the auction photo is still too tight compared to the video grab. Also, the "C" in STAUBACH looks different, although it could be due to a bad camera angle. The mystery widens.

[gwh11]

Look closely at how the A, B and A on the nameplate are aligned above the 1 and 2 below. Compare to the Lelands pic. Frankly, I don't see much difference here.
Guy

[aeneas01]

great screen grabs gwh11!

the grabs that slats7 posted, of staubach warming up before the rams game, seem to show staubach sporting a shirt that was heavily stained around the shoulder pads, that the wash didn't completely knock out - in the same area where he was muddied in the vikes game. also, there seems to be the same funky thing going on with the "t" when comparing the rams grabs to the vikes grabs, kind of sits a little higher than the rest of the letters... looks like the same shirt to me.

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[slats7]

great screen grabs gwh11!

the grabs that slats7 posted, of staubach warming up before the rams game, seem to show staubach sporting a shirt that was heavily stained around the shoulder pads, that the wash didn't completely knock out - in the same area where he was muddied in the vikes game. also, there seems to be the same funky thing going on with the "t" when comparing the rams grabs to the vikes grabs, kind of sits a little higher than the rest of the letters... looks like the same shirt to me.

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Clarification: I wasn't suggesting that Roger was wearing the same jersey he wore he in Minnesota. I mean, why would they mend a torn, dirty jersey when they could just issue him a new one? If the Leland's jersey is fake (and I'm still leaning that way), then someone went to a great deal of trouble to make it look like the real thing--right down to the mended tear.

[UGA-1]

Great work so far on this jersey guys!

What bothers me is the story. Why such a crazy story if it is genuine? Also, can the auction house sell an item that the cosigner says was stolen? If I tried to sell my jerseys as "stolen straight off the bench when no one was looking!" I might be asking for trouble. Don't cha think??
Just curious.

[gwh11]

Thanks Roger; I don't think I have the Rams game so I can't check to see if the jersey was used in that game as well.

This grab shows the rip near the 2 on the front.

Does anyone remember an old, old post (maybe on the first version of this forum) where someone said they had this jersey and it was stolen from their home? Or am I imagining things?

Guy

[gwh11]

Whoops, meant to say "Thanks Robert"!
Guy

[slats7]

Regarding a discussion earlier in this thread about foam padding on his helmet, here's a pic that proves that he did use it during the 1972 season--the last such season, in fact.

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-374-BE059792.jpg
12/23/72

[John in KY]

Regarding a discussion earlier in this thread about foam padding on his helmet, here's a pic that proves that he did use it during the 1972 season--the last such season, in fact.

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-374-BE059792.jpg
12/23/72

According to Helmet - this one they have displayed should be that helmet that Staubach is holding above. According to the HelmetHut text it was acquired from the team before training camp in 1973 - which would correspond to Staubach's switch to the Maritta/Maxpro helmets. Photo from HelmetHut:

http://www.helmethut.com/Cowboys/roger4.jpg http://www.helmethut.com/Cowboys/roger1.jpg

It's interesting to note in the first photo this helmet appears drilled for a "U-bar" - you can see the holes under the blue stripes.

On a side note - I think I read somewhere that "Maxpro" was a second "brand" for Marietta applied only to those kinetic helmets - kind of like Ford owns the brand "Lincoln" - but when the company changed hands in the mid 1970s it took the Maxpro name. I'm not sure of the details, but at some point they also either merged with Kelley or at least took over producing and distributing them while Kelley himself retained ownership.

[John in KY]

http://www.helmethut.com/Cowboys/roger4.jpg

It's interesting to note in the first photo this helmet appears drilled for a "U-bar" - you can see the holes under the blue stripes.



EDIT - I thought the holes were too narrow for a Wildcat sweatband which is why I said "U-bar", but upon closer look the holes would be the same for a U-bar and a sweatband. Also didn't realize you can't edit your posts here.

[slats7]

According to Helmet - this one they have displayed should be that helmet that Staubach is holding above. According to the HelmetHut text it was acquired from the team before training camp in 1973 - which would correspond to Staubach's switch to the Maritta/Maxpro helmets. Photo from HelmetHut:

http://www.helmethut.com/Cowboys/roger4.jpg http://www.helmethut.com/Cowboys/roger1.jpg

It's interesting to note in the first photo this helmet appears drilled for a "U-bar" - you can see the holes under the blue stripes.

On a side note - I think I read somewhere that "Maxpro" was a second "brand" for Marietta applied only to those kinetic helmets - kind of like Ford owns the brand "Lincoln" - but when the company changed hands in the mid 1970s it took the Maxpro name. I'm not sure of the details, but at some point they also either merged with Kelley or at least took over producing and distributing them while Kelley himself retained ownership.

I kinda doubt that that helmet was used in the Dallas-Frisco playoff game or any other game. Looks too darn pristine to me. No scratches, no chipped paint, facebar looks brand new, etc. More likely it was "game-issued" but never used. Still valuable, though.

[mvandor]

I kinda doubt that that helmet was used in the Dallas-Frisco playoff game or any other game. Looks too darn pristine to me. No scratches, no chipped paint, facebar looks brand new, etc. More likely it was "game-issued" but never used. Still valuable, though.

If it was obtained prior to the 1973 training camp, it had likely been refurbished in the off-season with the expectation Staubach would be using it, but he switched to Maxpro instead making this lid expendable in compliance with the high ranking NFL team exec's request.

Of course, the only provenance HH shares is that story really, so who knows?

[slats7]

Here's a photo from the '72 playoff game. Pretty safe to say it's not the same one in the Helmet Hut collection. The game photo shows an extra "stud" forward of the earhole, and the star itself is placed much higher on the helmet than the HH example.

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-291-47290c.jpg

[aeneas01]

It's interesting to note in the first photo this helmet appears drilled for a "U-bar" - you can see the holes under the blue stripes.

it wasn't uncommon for riddell helmets to leave the factory pre-drilled to accommodate "cage" facemasks, i.e. facemasks that were attached to the top and sides of the helmet. with that in mind, one has to wonder why the helmet hut lid only has drill holes at the top, not on sides given that staubach's 1972 gamer was clearly drilled in both locations.


On a side note - I think I read somewhere that "Maxpro" was a second "brand" for Marietta applied only to those kinetic helmets - kind of like Ford owns the brand "Lincoln" - but when the company changed hands in the mid 1970s it took the Maxpro name.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/mp01.jpg

as far as the jersey is concerned, i didn't catch the chat about the hole - given this it's pretty clear that he's not sporting the same jersey in the rams game which i thought could be the case...

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[yosef777]

John in KY brought up an interesting thought in regards to MaxPro being a 'brand' of Marietta. Anyone else have more any info in that regard?
I recently obtained a Chiefs Marietta K 112 Suspension helmet which looks and feels identical to my MaxPro Kineomatic 21 helmet in terms of the shape of the shell. However, it is an impregnated red plastic (not a clear shell) and has a traditional style riveted, suspension opposed to the leather pads that were velcroed in the Kineomatics.
I also included a brief but informative write up from Helmet Hut's Dr. Del Rye column which gives a history of Marietta and Maxpro.

"Marietta Corp. of Dallas Texas was founded by a California dentist named Dr. Marietta in the late 1940s or early 1950s. They initially produced sports mouth guards and facemasks. Eventually (in the late 1950s?) they started making a suspension football helmet to compete with Riddell.

In the early 1970s Marietta invented the clear shell Lexon shell helmet. Their Lexon shell was twice as thick as the rival Macgregor clear shell helmet which was invented in the late 1950s or the very early 1960s. The Marietta clear shell Lexon helmet used Velcro attached padding compared to the Macgregor helmet which used a riveted in top leather added suspension combined with sewn in (later plastic tab snapped in) padding. During this same period Marietta also introduced a non-clear shell with the same padding system as their clear shell Lexon helmet. In approximately 1977 the Marietta Corp. went bankrupt.

Maxpro started in approximately 1978 when they bought out the bankrupt Marietta Corp. Maxpro used the newly acquired but antiquated Marietta manufacturing facility in Dallas until 1981 when they built a new high tech facility in Grand Prairie, Texas. In addition to building a new manufacturing facility (in the mid 80's) Maxpro also bought the Bill Kelley helmet company around the same time. Kelley started in 1977 after purchasing the Macgregor helmet line which had been dormant since 1974. Maxpro produced their helmet and the newly acquired Kelley helmet in their new Grand Prairie facility. Unfortunately, Maxpro went out of business due to skyrocketing liability insurance costs in approximately 1984-85."

[John in KY]

Based on the other better photos from the '72 playoff game that HelmetHut piece pretty clearly isn't Staubach's 1972 helmet. It might have been a new 1973 Riddell (usually HelmetHut is pretty good about confirming the shell date stamps but that is conspicously absent in their write-up) that the Cowboys had that was never used since he switched to the Marietta/Maxpro.

I believe the plastic is acutally Lexan (made by GE) not "Lexon" as stated in the write-up. I never turned up the piece that I thought I read where Maxpro was a "brand" under Marietta. Everything I can fine show that Maxpro bought Marietta from bankruptcy and kept Kineomatic in production. I was thinking about them still making Kelleys as a brand.

Great photos and info as always on this forum!

[aeneas01]

Based on the other better photos from the '72 playoff game that HelmetHut piece pretty clearly isn't Staubach's 1972 helmet. It might have been a new 1973 Riddell (usually HelmetHut is pretty good about confirming the shell date stamps but that is conspicously absent in their write-up) that the Cowboys had that was never used since he switched to the Marietta/Maxpro.

to tell you the truth john, your post strikes me as somewhat accusatory, rather suspicious in nature, as if you're implying that helmet hut is trying to pull a fast one.

you state that helmet hut is "pretty good about confirming the shell date stamps", but since no mention was made in this instance it strikes you as "conspicuously absent". first, a quick look at the many helmets featured at helmet hut will easily confirm that hh often doesn't bother to mention what a helmet's date stamp is in their informative write ups - in fact, mention of a helmet's date stamp in these descriptions is more the exception than the rule. second, when looking at the page hh has dedicated to the staubach helmet, i think it's more than obvious that hh has clearly identified it as staubach's 1973 helmet - in bold letters, at the top of the page, in the title. yet because they fail to also mention a 1973 date stamp, you construe this as suspicuous, "conspicuosly absent"? i just don't get it.

also, hh makes absolutely no mention or reference to the 1972 season in their write up, none whatsoever. in fact hh is perfectly clear that it's a 1973 helmet that they're presenting to their reader's. yet you seem to want to make a case that it's not his 1972 helmet, as if hh is suggesting that perhaps it is. i took a stab at sarcasm with my last post, trying to point out that it was painfully obvious that the hh lid wasn't his 1972 gamer which hh would obviously know, but i missed the mark (i have to stop hanging out with "helmets"!).

anyway, it seems to me that helmet hut has clearly stated in their description of this helmet that it was obtained at the start of the 1973 training camp, not before the start of training camp, not at the end of the 1972 season. further, it seems to me that hh is saying that staubach wore this lid at the start of training camp, apparently during an early camp scrimmage game (i know the cowboys had a long history of scrimmaging my rams during that era) and, as such, it could very well represent the last riddell staubach ever wore.


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[aeneas01]

I never turned up the piece that I thought I read where Maxpro was a "brand" under Marietta. Everything I can fine show that Maxpro bought Marietta from bankruptcy and kept Kineomatic in production. I was thinking about them still making Kelleys as a brand.

yes, kineomatic was the model (and name) that maxpro kept alive when they purchased the company from marietta, as opposed to maxpro being a "second brand" under marietta. much like kelley kept the 100mh model (and name) alive when they purchased the company from macgregor. at least that's always been my understanding which seems to be supported by the kineomatic helmets in circulation, some with marietta logos and some with maxpro logos...

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[John in KY]

to tell you the truth john, your post strikes me as somewhat accusatory, rather suspicious in nature, as if you're implying that helmet hut is trying to pull a fast one.

you state that helmet hut is "pretty good about confirming the shell date stamps", but since no mention was made in this instance it strikes you as "conspicuously absent". first, a quick look at the many helmets featured at helmet hut will easily confirm that hh often doesn't bother to mention what a helmet's date stamp is in their informative write ups - in fact, mention of a helmet's date stamp in these descriptions is more the exception than the rule. second, when looking at the page hh has dedicated to the staubach helmet, i think it's more than obvious that hh has clearly identified it as staubach's 1973 helmet - in bold letters, at the top of the page, in the title. yet because they fail to also mention a 1973 date stamp, you construe this as suspicuous, "conspicuosly absent"? i just don't get it.

also, hh makes absolutely no mention or reference to the 1972 season in their write up, none whatsoever. in fact hh is perfectly clear that it's a 1973 helmet that they're presenting to their reader's. yet you seem to want to make a case that it's not his 1972 helmet, as if hh is suggesting that perhaps it is. i took a stab at sarcasm with my last post, trying to point out that it was painfully obvious that the hh lid wasn't his 1972 gamer which hh would obviously know, but i missed the mark (i have to stop hanging out with "helmets"!).

anyway, it seems to me that helmet hut has clearly stated in their description of this helmet that it was obtained at the start of the 1973 training camp, not before the start of training camp, not at the end of the 1972 season. further, it seems to me that hh is saying that staubach wore this lid at the start of training camp, apparently during an early camp scrimmage game (i know the cowboys had a long history of scrimmaging my rams during that era) and, as such, it could very well represent the last riddell staubach ever wore.


...

Going back and rereading my post it does come off that way - which was not my intent. My apoligies to Curtis and HH.

I don't think HH was trying to pull a fast one - it isn't even their helmet. It belongs to the Cowboys Hall of Fame and is going to be on display when their new stadium opens and HH was just showing it off. Frankly I thought Curtis mentioned date stamps on more of the famous player game-used helmets he has on display. I thought perhaps it could have been the 1972 helmet since Staubach didn't play much in 1972; the photo evidence in this thread cleary indicates that it isn't (missing some drill holes, etc.). My belief is this helmet was ordered for Stauback for 1973 and was never worn as he switched to the Marietta.

And on that note goodbye.

[slats7]

Not to beat a dead horse, but here are three training camp pics from 1973. I think it's safe to say that the helmet depicted is not the same one in HH's collection.

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-585-4E84B74B73894B5EA634E2C752DFA2F1.JPG

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-126-6855377D945048B195D090B879491566.JPG

http://www.123imagehost.com/uploads/235-601-CAA0EF3A67B24AB586706975D8387ABE.JPG

[aeneas01]

Not to beat a dead horse, but here are three training camp pics from 1973. I think it's safe to say that the helmet depicted is not the same one in HH's collection.

and i also think it's safe to say that the photos you posted are not from the cowboys' 1973 camp! the shots appear to be snatched "vintage sports images" which would explain the problem given that they often misdate their photos. getty and wire have these camp photos dated as may 1972, but it's a only "date created" reference (read posted) which is not the same as a "date taken" reference. imo the shots are actually from the cowboys' 1970 training camp...

here's another example of a "vintage sports images" date error - they attribute this shot to 1973 - of course staubach didn't sport a suspension helmet in 1973. the photo is actually from the cowboys 1972 divisional playoff game against the 49ers...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/9DD5343D067E4FD5B3C775B88741E239.jpg

...

[slats7]

and i also think it's safe to say that the photos you posted are not from the cowboys' 1973 camp! the shots appear to be snatched "vintage sports images" which would explain the problem given that they often misdate their photos. getty and wire have these camp photos dated as may 1972, but it's a only "date created" reference (read posted) which is not the same as a "date taken" reference. imo the shots are actually from the cowboys' 1970 training camp...

Couldn't find these pix (or anything similar to them) at Getty. And if anyone plays fast and loose with dates, it's Getty. In the early 70s, it was common practice to print the month and the year on the cardboard section of the slide. Of course, that would only denote when the slide was developed, not necessarily when it was taken. Maybe VSI noticed such a date on one of the Staubach slides. Maybe not. It would be irresponsible of them to simply guess.


here's another example of a "vintage sports images" date error - they attribute this shot to 1973 - of course staubach didn't sport a suspension helmet in 1973. the photo is actually from the cowboys 1972 divisional playoff game against the 49ers...

Well, he wore the exact same helmet a week later in DC, meaning January of 1973, so they were in the "vicinity" of the truth. :o

[aeneas01]

If the Leland's jersey is fake (and I'm still leaning that way), then someone went to a great deal of trouble to make it look like the real thing--right down to the mended tear.

this statement reminded me of a dallas cowboys helmet that sold on ebay a couple of years ago. it was listed as a hurvin mccormack gamer and included a "mccormack" rear dymo tape. it went for a steal. it was then relisted a month later as helmet belonging to pro bowler a leon lett with a new dymo tape reflecting lett's name. when i contacted the seller, he told me that he had purchased it from a brick & mortar dealer, that he didn't buy the mccormack helmet, but nonetheless didn't feel comfortable giving me the name of the b&m or the bm's location.

he said he was embarrassed, honest mistake, and pulled it. a few weeks later the helmet surfaced again on ebay, but this time as a cowboys gamer attributed to no specific player. the dymo tape? the seller had actually photoshoped out the name on the dymo tape in his ad - he apparently thought this would keep it from being recognized as the mccormack that was turned into a lett helmet...

photo on the left is when it was listed as mccormack's helmet, photo on the right when it was listed as lett's helmet:


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2001/dcow1.jpg

left photo mccormack, center photo same helmet but with a lett dymo tape (note the "game used" ragged look he gave that tape!), right photo the photoshoped ad...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/2001/dcow2.jpg


anyway it's amazing how far some will go to make a few extra bucks...

....

[slats7]

anyway it's amazing how far some will go to make a few extra bucks...

....

Which makes me think that dalcowbill would have been much better off trying to pass off his phony Staubach helmet as a 1971 or '72 model instead of '75. Of course, the date code made that impossible, so he stuck to his guns and hoped that no prospective buyers would research Roger's helmet history. He eventually wrangled a sucker.