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kingjammy24
02-27-2009, 06:53 PM
for the most part, prices seem tied to player stats. beyond that, scarcity also plays a role. that said, there are a few players whose items have always struck me as notably overpriced and others as underpriced without any rhyme or reason. what players do you feel are inexplicably, oddly overpriced and/or underpriced? my list:

overpriced
----------

1) bo jackson. a solid KC Royals game-used jersey would fetch around $2k (even more if there's provenance). $2k+ for a guy who had a total of 4 good seasons and racked up these completely mediocre career stats:
141 career HRs
598 career hits
.250 career BA
never a single season with more than 32 HRs and 1 all-star game. his stats are on par with ron kittle and i don't see ron kittle jerseys going for $2k+. no doubt bo was very exciting but it was for a very, very brief amount of time.

2) mark mcgwire. i recently read about solid bats of his going for upwards of $2k. i imagine jerseys would be around $4k? what would prices be if he hadn't, you know, juiced it his entire career? $5k bats? the steroid fiasco decimated prices for canseco, sosa, and clemens items. it also deeply affected bonds' items. at least bonds racked up some impressive stats cleanly before he started juicing it in the latter half of his career. if canseco is to be believed, and he's been right on the money so far, mcgwire began juicing it early on in oakland. one big juiced career and his bats are still upwards of $2k? why did canseco and sosa take such a massive hit from it and not mcgwire? canseco bats can be had for peanuts. sosa's got more career HRs than mcgwire.

3) any rookie who's had a 1-2 yrs so far. eg: pedroia. jtbats is currently selling an ellsbury for $499. sure ellsbury's 2008 season with a thundering 9 HRs and a couldn't-quite-get-to-300 .280 BA is astounding
and has probably been replicated by only 8000 other major leaguers, but it makes me wonder why jtbats is charging much less for bats of frank thomas, gary sheffield, jim thome, etc.

underpriced
-----------

1) rickey henderson. one of the greatest ballplayers of all time, first ballot HOFer, over 3000 hits, holds the SB record, and yet his bats seem to go for around $500. compare that to ripken's bats that often go well over $1k.

2) frank thomas. thomas bats go for 1/3 to 1/2 of griffey bats. what is the big disparity between the two? neither have ever been implicated in the steroids mess. thomas has a clean 521 HRs and griffey has 611, but thomas has a .301 career BA compared to griffey's .288. sure griffey was a great outfielder for a while. i'm not knocking junior but was he really twice or three times the player thomas was? as for supply, griffey was a bat factory for his entire career, pumping stuff out to mill creek and coast to coast. certainly no scarcity for his bats. the price of thomas bats seem to be on par with sosa bats which is really confusing considering thomas' HRs are clean and sosas' aren't.

what other pricing oddities are out there?

rudy.

Yankwood
02-27-2009, 07:46 PM
I put Thome in the same category as Frank Thomas. For many different reasons, accomplishments and popularity do not go hand in hand. Nobody will argue that Paul O'Neill is a better hitter than Chipper Jones, but O'Neill's stuff holds it's value and he is immensely popular among fans. Fred McGriff's stuff is also easily attainable at very fair prices. Maybe one of the reasons is the home run became cheapened in this era. Why else would Craig Biggio's bats be sought after far more than, say, Dave Winfield. Winfield had more hits than Biggio, and did it with power, yet for some reason he is not very popular with collectors. Especially when you factor in that he spent a good part of his career with the Yankees. Sellers always seek $500 to $750 for his bats but almost never seem to get that much. They're on eball all the time with very little interest.

On the other hand, it's hard to find another player from the 1970s and more recent era who played as many years as Bobby Murcer who did not have a HOF type career, yet whose bats bring about so much interest. And of even more recent vintage, Don Mattingly's bats, as witnessed on collector sites like this, are untouchable, that is, if you can even find them.

treasurechest collectibles
02-27-2009, 07:56 PM
overpriced: japanese ball players. supply and demand. more demand from international collectors who are willing to pay whatever it takes.

emann
02-27-2009, 08:04 PM
Good thread.

Quick address of your picks and I'll add mine.

2) I think Sosa did further damage to his prices/legacy with the corked bat incident. Add the steroids and he's cheated on multiple levels. Similar to Palmerio... I think the majority of collectors just don't like him. McGwire at least was the first one to break the HR record, I think that over inflated his value. Why his bats have not dropped back down is beyond me. I wouldn't pay anywhere near 2K for one. Currently, you could have buy a Puckett, Boggs, Eddie Murray & Rickey Henderson for that... Crazy, his bats should be like $400 tops.

3) Totally agree on the prices of all the rookies. The $500+ prices are totally driven by speculation... See last sentence above...

Overpriced-
1) The majority of the GU items on MLB Auctions.
2) The majority of Steiner's GU product.
3) Relatively marginal players whose value is based on being on the Yankees or Red Sox: Cano, Damon, Posada, Varitek, Lowell, etc.

Underpriced-
1) HOF bats of Boggs, Puckett, Molitor, Henderson, Winfield, Carew & Morgan. All 1st ballot HOFers, all around $500 for solid examples (and WAY lower if you want a Winfield Cooper for example). Gwynn & Ripken's values seem where most of these players should be...

2) Possible HOFers: Thomas, Ivan Rodriguez, Jeff Kent, Sheffield... All hover around $150-200.

Rboitano
02-27-2009, 08:08 PM
Don Mattingly is way overpriced.
Paul O'Neill is definately not a better hitter than Chipper Jones.
O'Neill career BA .288 281 homers
Jones career BA .310 408 homers

Yankwood
02-27-2009, 08:11 PM
Also in the marginal HOFer category: Tim Raines. I have auctioned several of his bats -and I mean very nice ones with tons of use-and you're lucky to get 75 bucks.

Rboitano
02-27-2009, 08:12 PM
I wish legit Mcgwire bats with legit autographs were $400, they are worth that kind of money cause people will still pay that for him. In the last year their has been a ton of Pudge and Sheffield bats out for sale, most could be had for 150-200 signed.

Yankwood
02-27-2009, 08:12 PM
Don Mattingly is way overpriced.
Paul O'Neill is definately not a better hitter than Chipper Jones.
O'Neill career BA .288 281 homers
Jones career BA .310 408 homersThat's what I said. But in spite of that O'Neill will bring more in an auction...It's a popularity issue.

Rboitano
02-27-2009, 08:18 PM
Ya I guess because collectors putting together championship team bats, and O'Neill was on a number of them. jones bats still bring good money. I really think Griffey is underpriced, may be one of the only clean players of the last twenty years.
George Brett bats are also way overpriced. Wade Boggs was better, and his bats dont bring near to what Bretts does.
Bretts career BA .305
Boggs career BA .328

Yankwood
02-27-2009, 08:24 PM
Even before the steroid issue, Palmeiro's bats were not really all that popular. Also, high on the All time hit list with no interest is Harold Baines. The other night my mother called me because her house was cold and she had run out of firewood. I drove over to her house with 3 Baines bats and they kept her warm for the night. I couldn't get rid of them any other way so at least they went for a good cause.

metsmetsmets
02-27-2009, 08:29 PM
Of course, this thread requires one to define the terms "underpriced" and "overpriced". By one view, there might not be such a thing as under or over priced.

If a buyer is willing to, and has to pay $2,000.00 for a particular baseball bat because the next highest bid came in at $1,990.00, then that bat, at that precise moment in time, is worth $2,000.00. By that view, it would make no difference that some others might be unwilling, or unable to pay the $2K.

Is a Rolls Royce overpriced at over $100K just because I might not spend that money for the car, even if I was able to?

emann
02-27-2009, 08:32 PM
Yankwood-
Hope it's a joke on the Baines bats. He's actually on my want list... I'll take him or Raines off your hands. :p

I agree Brett is overpriced. Same on Mattingly...

suave1477
02-27-2009, 08:34 PM
for the most part, prices seem tied to player stats. beyond that, scarcity also plays a role. that said, there are a few players whose items have always struck me as notably overpriced and others as underpriced without any rhyme or reason. what players do you feel are inexplicably, oddly overpriced and/or underpriced? my list:

overpriced
----------

1) bo jackson. a solid KC Royals game-used jersey would fetch around $2k (even more if there's provenance). $2k+ for a guy who had a total of 4 good seasons and racked up these completely mediocre career stats:
141 career HRs
598 career hits
.250 career BA
never a single season with more than 32 HRs and 1 all-star game. his stats are on par with ron kittle and i don't see ron kittle jerseys going for $2k+. no doubt bo was very exciting but it was for a very, very brief amount of time.

2) mark mcgwire. i recently read about solid bats of his going for upwards of $2k. i imagine jerseys would be around $4k? what would prices be if he hadn't, you know, juiced it his entire career? $5k bats? the steroid fiasco decimated prices for canseco, sosa, and clemens items. it also deeply affected bonds' items. at least bonds racked up some impressive stats cleanly before he started juicing it in the latter half of his career. if canseco is to be believed, and he's been right on the money so far, mcgwire began juicing it early on in oakland. one big juiced career and his bats are still upwards of $2k? why did canseco and sosa take such a massive hit from it and not mcgwire? canseco bats can be had for peanuts. sosa's got more career HRs than mcgwire.

3) any rookie who's had a 1-2 yrs so far. eg: pedroia. jtbats is currently selling an ellsbury for $499. sure ellsbury's 2008 season with a thundering 9 HRs and a couldn't-quite-get-to-300 .280 BA is astounding
and has probably been replicated by only 8000 other major leaguers, but it makes me wonder why jtbats is charging much less for bats of frank thomas, gary sheffield, jim thome, etc.

underpriced
-----------

1) rickey henderson. one of the greatest ballplayers of all time, first ballot HOFer, over 3000 hits, holds the SB record, and yet his bats seem to go for around $500. compare that to ripken's bats that often go well over $1k.

2) frank thomas. thomas bats go for 1/3 to 1/2 of griffey bats. what is the big disparity between the two? neither have ever been implicated in the steroids mess. thomas has a clean 521 HRs and griffey has 611, but thomas has a .301 career BA compared to griffey's .288. sure griffey was a great outfielder for a while. i'm not knocking junior but was he really twice or three times the player thomas was? as for supply, griffey was a bat factory for his entire career, pumping stuff out to mill creek and coast to coast. certainly no scarcity for his bats. the price of thomas bats seem to be on par with sosa bats which is really confusing considering thomas' HRs are clean and sosas' aren't.

what other pricing oddities are out there?

rudy.

KingJammy I agree with what your saying but at the same time I think your missing a little of the point which you answered your own question
Supply and Demand

Demand plays parts in different ways not just because of stats alone.

Ill explain, on your examples

First of all Fan Favorites plays a part in all the names you mentioned

1) Bo Jackson - no not the greatest player but the fact he was pretty good in 2 sports. Makes him a Fan Favorite because you do not find too many 2 sport players good at both, also rarity of his items. You just don't see that many. (Many that are real).
So when one comes along, put both reasons together = high premium

2) Mark McGwire - was a fan favorite before the whole roid thing ruined him. First player to break (Artificially) Mari's record in almost 40 years. Did it as a Cardinal. Same last team Maris ended up with.
And again extremely rare (real McGwire bats and Jerseys)
Again when one comes along = High premium
(Now with the names you mentioned) Palmeiro Sosa Canseco - there is still a desrire for there items but there items are flooded on the market. Takes away from the demand when the supply is plentiful.

3) New Rookies on the scene - well technically it is a different era now of collecting and with game used hobby becoming so commercialized. You have ten times the amount now of collectors. So why not raise the price???? There will be someone out there to pay it. Now with the rookies every one is looking for the next phenom player and that there values are going to skyrocket once they become that player.
Items like mantle, Ruth, Ted Williams, Roberto Clemente game used items were taken for granted and being thrown out because no one knew that this would turn into an actual hobby.
Another mans trash is another mans fotune. - So we all learn that years later.

So with the rookies of today everyone is trying to cash in now on that hoping it will be one day there fortune.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

1) Rickey henderson - as great as he is and stolen base king, people have always favored interest in the almighty HOME RUN. Its more exciting to watch someone hit a ball out of a stadium then just another fast runner.
Not to mention the almight dollar signs Rickey saw by flodding the market with his own equipment

2) Frank Thomas - no question great hitter but in comparison to Griffey Jr. well the home run record speaks for that. To be apart of the 500 home run club in an era that seems like everyone else is becoming apart of the club, isn;t that exciting any more. Compared to being a part of the 600 Home Run club which most if hardly any ever last long enough in baseball to get there. Griffey will also be of moe desire!!

Yes Grifffey did pimp out his game used stuff. But Thomas isn;t far behind.
He jumped on the bandwagon and pimped out his own stuff.

I remember a year or 2 ago Thomas gave/sold to ESM like 10 home run bats and 20 game used bats.

The Game Used Hobby is turning into a business just like any other Hobby!!


These are just my opinion!!

suave1477
02-27-2009, 08:46 PM
Good thread.


3) Relatively marginal players whose value is based on being on the Yankees or Red Sox: Cano, Damon, Posada, Varitek, Lowell, etc.
.

I agree with everything you said except in your post except for this line with mentioning Posada

He is no Arod, I agree, but I do believe he is clearly above marginal especially in comparison to other players of his position.

You mentioned Pudge as a possible HOF
Well compare Posada to Pudge - Posadas numbers are right behind Pudge.
With some of Posadas numbers are better then Pudge's
Now don't forget Pudge has been doing it for 18 seasons while Posada has been around for 14.
So Posada is on pace to match most of Pudges numbers if not beat them.

Now think about this alot of Pudges numbers were due to roids. So take away some of his numbers because of the roids and where does that put Posadas numbers - way passed Pudge!!

Marginal I think not lol lol:D

Vintagedeputy
02-27-2009, 08:49 PM
Defintions:

Underpriced - what I own and can't afford to sell

Overpriced - what I want and can't afford to buy

Yankwood
02-27-2009, 08:49 PM
Yankwood-
Hope it's a joke on the Baines bats. He's actually on my want list... I'll take him or Raines off your hands. :p

I agree Brett is overpriced. Same on Mattingly...Where were you when I sold these? There's actually a really nice Baines on Ebay right now. It's signed really well and has a Make Offer type bid.

emann
02-27-2009, 09:02 PM
I agree with everything you said except in your post except for this line with mentioning Posada

He is no Arod, I agree, but I do believe he is clearly above marginal especially in comparison to other players of his position.

You mentioned Pudge as a possible HOF
Well compare Posada to Pudge - Posadas numbers are right behind Pudge.
With some of Posadas numbers are better then Pudge's
Now don't forget Pudge has been doing it for 18 seasons while Posada has been around for 14.
So Posada is on pace to match most of Pudges numbers if not beat them.

Now think about this alot of Pudges numbers were due to roids. So take away some of his numbers because of the roids and where does that put Posadas numbers - way passed Pudge!!

Marginal I think not lol lol:D

I'll give you the numbers- it is possible that Posada will pass Pudge on some of the numbers. But remember, they are the exact same age and Pudge should have a few more years in him as well. Granted, I think the steroid issue you mention might ruin him as it has the others but for now...

Pudge: 14X All Star, 13X Gold Glove and MVP winner at 37... 2,600+ hits
Posada: 5X All Star, 5X Gold Glove at 37... 1500? hits

I still think Posada means little to anyone who isn't a Yankee fan. He's like Varitek (or even Ortiz), I still think he'd be even less known if he was out of the major market.

I'm also a Sox fan (who is trying to be fair- they'd revoke my Red Sox Nation card for dissing Ortiz), so maybe that's it. ;)

emann
02-27-2009, 09:04 PM
Where were you when I sold these? There's actually a really nice Baines on Ebay right now. It's signed really well and has a Make Offer type bid.

Dunno, I've been posting in the Item Wanted section for months... Looking for nice 80's star bats (Raines, Dawson, Parker, etc). Search for the post and feel free to drop me a note...

suave1477
02-27-2009, 09:22 PM
I'll give you the numbers- it is possible that Posada will pass Pudge on some of the numbers. But remember, they are the exact same age and Pudge should have a few more years in him as well. Granted, I think the steroid issue you mention might ruin him as it has the others but for now...

Pudge: 14X All Star, 13X Gold Glove and MVP winner at 37... 2,600+ hits
Posada: 5X All Star, 5X Gold Glove at 37... 1500? hits

I still think Posada means little to anyone who isn't a Yankee fan. He's like Varitek (or even Ortiz), I still think he'd be even less known if he was out of the major market.

I'm also a Sox fan (who is trying to be fair- they'd revoke my Red Sox Nation card for dissing Ortiz), so maybe that's it. ;)

Again you still failed to realize Pudge put up a lot of those numbers due to the roids.
Posada did it on his own talent

Pudge should have a few years in him as well??? No one wants him, hge hasn't signed anywhere.

Not to mention 2 of Posadas 14 seasons he barley played. which is basically like putting up 12 seasons against 18

You say no one would know who Posada was, if he was on another team is uuuuuum completely the opposite.
Posada is considered to be one of the most underated players due to being on the team he is on, the whole lineup is consisted of superstars.
Put Posada on any other team and he would be a SuperStar.

I understand your mad because your a Red Sox fan and have had Varitek as a catcher lol lol

But comparing Posada to Damon, Varitek, Cano, Lowell????? Are you serious???

Posada
5 x All Star
2 x Voted top ten MVP
4 x WS Champ
5 x Silver Slugger

Varitek
3 x All Star
1 Silver Slugger
2 x WS Champ

emann
02-27-2009, 09:41 PM
I don't want to derail the thread on this, but you missed my point, read it again... I didn't compare Tek to Posada. Posada is easily better. That Pudge is better than Posada was my point. C'mon, seriously- compare those numbers. 2X top ten for MVP for Posada? What does that get him? Also, I did agree that Pudge is probably going to be ruined w/ the steroid use (let's assume he took them). He'll end up in the same boat as Palmerio, Sosa, etc.

Another to add to overpriced:
Ryan Howard & Chase Utley. I like both of them, but I've seen $800 Howard bats. WAY too high right now compared to other available players.

xpress34
02-27-2009, 09:46 PM
overpriced: japanese ball players. supply and demand. more demand from international collectors who are willing to pay whatever it takes.

I have to agree with that - and not just GU items... cards and autos as well...

I am working a GU and AU card set from Fleer from 2004... the most scarce AUTO (and yet to surface) is a Ted Williams 1/1. Ironically if it surfaced, I could probably obtain it cheaper than the Hideo Nomo AUTO (25 copies) from the same set... I've seen 4 of the Nomo's surface over the years on eBay and everyone of them SOLD to Japanese buyers for OVER $800 each!!!

- Chris

kingjammy24
02-27-2009, 09:53 PM
Of course, this thread requires one to define the terms "underpriced" and "overpriced". By one view, there might not be such a thing as under or over priced.... Is a Rolls Royce overpriced at over $100K just because I might not spend that money for the car, even if I was able to?

quick comment to answer this question: i meant underpriced and overpriced relative to other players of equal stats. eg: (hypothetical) paying $1000 for a brett bat but only $500 for a yount. my entire point was to compare similar players with wildely disparate prices. to keep with your rolls royce example, it has nothing to do with what you might spend or are able to spend. a rolls royce, at a $100k, would be overpriced IF you could buy a similarly equipped bentley at $50k. the two cars would be extremely similar in every aspect, including prestige, except for the price which would make it an oddity. this is my entire point.

rudy.

xpress34
02-27-2009, 09:57 PM
New Rookies on the scene - well technically it is a different era now of collecting and with game used hobby becoming so commercialized. You have ten times the amount now of collectors. So why not raise the price???? There will be someone out there to pay it. Now with the rookies every one is looking for the next phenom player and that there values are going to skyrocket once they become that player.
Items like mantle, Ruth, Ted Williams, Roberto Clemente game used items were taken for granted and being thrown out because no one knew that this would turn into an actual hobby.
Another mans trash is another mans fotune. - So we all learn that years later.

So with the rookies of today everyone is trying to cash in now on that hoping it will be one day there fortune.

Suave -

You hit the Nail on the Head - Look at 'Sid the Kid' Crosby in the NHL... he was so hyped (and he hasn't disappointed), but he and his Dad hatched a GREAT Rookie plan - NEW jersey EVERY game - and he and his Dad kept EVERY Jersey and Every stick and started their own 'memorabilia' business...

A lot of rookies and their agents are cashing in...

- Chris

Birdbats
02-27-2009, 10:01 PM
I think the McGwire thing was covered well by others -- there's still demand because he still has fans from his years in St. Louis... and supply of legit, signed bats is very thin. Lots of pilfered bats with phony use, but not many real gamers with real use.

The flip side of Mac is Ozzie Smith. His bats typically sell for less than $500, and I actually saw a Cooper gamer of his sell for less than $200. You'd think he'd be worth more, but there's more supply than demand. His bats are like Pete Rose autographs -- if a collector ever wanted one, he/she probably has one.

I think the most undervalued bat remains Stan Musial. His gamers sell for a fraction of those used by Williams, DiMaggio and Mantle. If Stan had played in New York, he'd have a borough named after him. OK, maybe not a borough, but you get the idea.

Overvalued? I love him, but I don't get the price of Cal Ripken gamers. They don't seem to be scarce. Brett and Mattingly also are on my list, even though they're two of my favorite players.

camarokids
02-27-2009, 10:13 PM
Posada did it on his own talent


Plus Posada pees on his hands......:D

Vintagedeputy
02-27-2009, 10:20 PM
Plus Posada pees on his hands......:D

What? Doesnt everyone?

Rboitano
02-27-2009, 10:24 PM
How about Ryan Zimmerman, hasnt really done anything. He is way overpriced! Hanley Ramirez is undervalued.

jetersbatboy
02-27-2009, 11:11 PM
overpriced: japanese ball players. supply and demand. more demand from international collectors who are willing to pay whatever it takes.
I am one of those that over pay for Japanese baseball items...But its still fun to collect... OVER PRICED: YOUNG PROSPECTS THAT HAVE ONLY HAD ONE OR TWO GOOD SEASON'S(Longoria, Fielder, Etc). UNDER PRICED: CURRENT HOF'S (HENDERSON, MURRAY, WINFEILD, BOGGS, ETC

Fnazxc0114
02-28-2009, 12:30 AM
Defintions:

Underpriced - what I own and can't afford to sell

Overpriced - what I want and can't afford to buy

that pretty much sums it up right there.

earlywynnfan
02-28-2009, 01:15 AM
Ya I guess because collectors putting together championship team bats, and O'Neill was on a number of them. jones bats still bring good money. I really think Griffey is underpriced, may be one of the only clean players of the last twenty years.
George Brett bats are also way overpriced. Wade Boggs was better, and his bats dont bring near to what Bretts does.
Bretts career BA .305
Boggs career BA .328


Am I the only one who disagrees with this statement? Boggs was better than Brett?? Go ahead, take that .328 average full of singles slapped to to left. I'll take the 200+ homers, 500+ RBI, and fiery leadership. Boggs was a selfish SOB to play with, Brett just wanted to win.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Nnunnari
02-28-2009, 01:27 AM
Undervalued:
McGriff
Winfield
Alomar
Pudge
Sheffield
Thomas
Rickey

All HOFers whose bats you can get for under $300 on ebay.

Overvauled:
All Yankees/Red Sox bats
All JT Bats

kingjammy24
02-28-2009, 01:32 AM
good responses and i agree with most of them. interesting to see there's pretty much a consensus of who's undervalued. great underpriced examples of mcgriff (493 clean HRs!), winfield, and especially raines who spent his entire career underrated.

also completely agree with the overpriced examples of mattingly ($2k+ for a bat of a non-HOFer who didn't set any records?) and ripken. boggs, gwynn, and puckett (all HOF'ers, all 3000-hit members) were what mattingly was supposed to be had he not crapped out so early and yet mattingly's bats are worth twice what boggs', gwynns', and pucketts are worth. supply explains some of it but i don't see a lot of nice early-career boggs, gwynns, or winfields flying around. i don't even see a lot of nice early career mcgriffs around and his bats go for peanuts. who knew hitting 493 clean HRs would be worth so little.

while i agree that the HR has been devalued ever since bonds made a complete mockery of it and hit 73 (73! very subtle barry! he may as well have hit 120) but you'd think that'd place an even bigger premium on clean sluggers like griffey, mcgriff, and thomas and it hasn't really. ripken and brett were never really HR guys and their items go for more than sluggers like mcgriff and thomas. (ripken still confuses me. small-market team, sub-500 HRs, sub-.300 hitter, good supply of his bats floating around and i never quite understood the excitement behind a consecutive-game streak).

mcgwire also confuses me. at one point, sosa was very popular (had his own pepsi commercials!) yet his popularity completely died out. on the other hand, despite everyone believing that mcgwire juiced it from beginning to end, he's still got a large enough fan base to support these high prices? at this point, it's becoming apparent that mcgwire is not getting into the HOF. yet his values are still at HOF prices. every other big-name steroid star was kicked to the curb, except mcgwire. his bats may be in relative short supply but does that matter if the majority of his career has one huge asterisk? solid bonds gamers are in short supply and folks couldn't care less. jeff kranz took a bath when he unloaded his bonds items. yet mcgwire juiced all he wanted and it doesn't really seem to have affected his collectability. maybe fans don't care as much about steroids as they let on? maybe if you're a friendly, HR-hitting, elbow-basher you'll get a free pass?

it seems popularity plays a huge role. you can miss the HOF and juice it your entire career but if you somehow manage to remain popular, then your items will be worth more than your peers who made the HOF and didn't juice it. crazy. sounds like collectors might be better off looking at popularity than stats.

rudy.

Yankwood
02-28-2009, 04:15 AM
Am I the only one who disagrees with this statement? Boggs was better than Brett?? Go ahead, take that .328 average full of singles slapped to to left. I'll take the 200+ homers, 500+ RBI, and fiery leadership. Boggs was a selfish SOB to play with, Brett just wanted to win.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.comNot to derail or intercept the post because I think it's a good one, but I agree with you. I'll take Brett over Boggs in a heartbeat. And I don't really think it's that close.

Yankwood
02-28-2009, 04:17 AM
Undervalued:
McGriff
Winfield
Alomar
Pudge
Sheffield
Thomas
Rickey

All HOFers whose bats you can get for under $300 on ebay.

Overvauled:
All Yankees/Red Sox bats
All JT BatsWinfield played a good part of his career with the Yankees, so obviously it's not ALL Yankees bats. However most of the time, I think it's true.

suave1477
02-28-2009, 08:30 AM
good responses and i agree with most of them. interesting to see there's pretty much a consensus of who's undervalued. great underpriced examples of mcgriff (493 clean HRs!), winfield, and especially raines who spent his entire career underrated.

also completely agree with the overpriced examples of mattingly ($2k+ for a bat of a non-HOFer who didn't set any records?) and ripken. boggs, gwynn, and puckett (all HOF'ers, all 3000-hit members) were what mattingly was supposed to be had he not crapped out so early and yet mattingly's bats are worth twice what boggs', gwynns', and pucketts are worth. supply explains some of it but i don't see a lot of nice early-career boggs, gwynns, or winfields flying around. i don't even see a lot of nice early career mcgriffs around and his bats go for peanuts. who knew hitting 493 clean HRs would be worth so little.

while i agree that the HR has been devalued ever since bonds made a complete mockery of it and hit 73 (73! very subtle barry! he may as well have hit 120) but you'd think that'd place an even bigger premium on clean sluggers like griffey, mcgriff, and thomas and it hasn't really. ripken and brett were never really HR guys and their items go for more than sluggers like mcgriff and thomas. (ripken still confuses me. small-market team, sub-500 HRs, sub-.300 hitter, good supply of his bats floating around and i never quite understood the excitement behind a consecutive-game streak).

mcgwire also confuses me. at one point, sosa was very popular (had his own pepsi commercials!) yet his popularity completely died out. on the other hand, despite everyone believing that mcgwire juiced it from beginning to end, he's still got a large enough fan base to support these high prices? at this point, it's becoming apparent that mcgwire is not getting into the HOF. yet his values are still at HOF prices. every other big-name steroid star was kicked to the curb, except mcgwire. his bats may be in relative short supply but does that matter if the majority of his career has one huge asterisk? solid bonds gamers are in short supply and folks couldn't care less. jeff kranz took a bath when he unloaded his bonds items. yet mcgwire juiced all he wanted and it doesn't really seem to have affected his collectability. maybe fans don't care as much about steroids as they let on? maybe if you're a friendly, HR-hitting, elbow-basher you'll get a free pass?

it seems popularity plays a huge role. you can miss the HOF and juice it your entire career but if you somehow manage to remain popular, then your items will be worth more than your peers who made the HOF and didn't juice it. crazy. sounds like collectors might be better off looking at popularity than stats.

rudy.

Again KingJammy your correct on everything and answered your own question to a point.... Yes popularity plays a huge role... but.... this is nothing new this goes for any kind of hobby. This isn't something that just poppped up for the Game Used Hobby.
Players you mentioned McGriff, Winfield, raines were all great players but they all made there numbers with out any pizazz which is what interests alot of people espcially people who don't normally buy into the hobby.

Brett - remembered for the pine tar incident - Show me a game used Brett bat with Pine Tar, I'll show you ten buyers.
Ripken - remembered for breaking Gherigs record - Show me a game used bat of his, i'll show you pleny of buyers

McGriff - yes he hit alot of home runs quietly over years - but to be honest with you what is he really remembered for that sticks out other then just playing??
(Now I am not saying he hasn't done anything, but nothing I remember, so if he did do something how memorable can it be to collectors who never heard of him)

Especially every day that goes by the collectors are getting younger and younger. They are going to compete to get the guys they heard of Brett, ripken. Mcgriff whooo???

You say collectors rather the roid guys over the clean ones, yes and no.

Here is my example I gave someone a few weeks back - 1919 Black Sox the biggest cheaters in the game to this day - But imagine if someone offered you an Ed Cicotte Jersey or Buck Weaver bat. Would you turn it down??? because they were cheaters??? Maybe you would, but I wouldn't and many other collectors wouldn't. Why?? beacause they were cheaters??? No because they were involved in one of the biggest scandals in history!!!

Human Interest = Popularity + Rare Item = High Premium


Somoeone here said Pudge is undervalued??? How is that so??? His items sell for a high premium and he is not even worth it. In my opinion he is over valued

Cano over valued

While with the Yankees Sheffield i felt started becoming a bit over valued, but his prices have dropped to where I think they should be.

corsairs22
02-28-2009, 10:01 AM
Suave
That is a good point about the Black Sox items. Of course, harldy anybody would have wanted their bats, autographs etc. from the 20's thru the early 60's. It was only when they died off and the book came out that they came to be seen as romantic outlaws rather than as crooks or traitors. I imagine it will take a few decades before Bonds, Clemens, etc. become victims in the public imagination.

FastLane80
02-28-2009, 11:02 AM
Undervalued:
Fernando Valenzuela. For the icon he was, I'd think his stuff would fetch more than it has.

kingjammy24
02-28-2009, 12:22 PM
...Players you mentioned McGriff, Winfield, raines were all great players but they all made there numbers with out any pizazz which is what interests alot of people espcially people who don't normally buy into the hobby.

Brett - remembered for the pine tar incident - Show me a game used Brett bat with Pine Tar, I'll show you ten buyers.
Ripken - remembered for breaking Gherigs record - Show me a game used bat of his, i'll show you pleny of buyers
McGriff - yes he hit alot of home runs quietly over years - but to be honest with you what is he really remembered for that sticks out other then just playing??..
Especially every day that goes by the collectors are getting younger and younger. They are going to compete to get the guys they heard of Brett, ripken. Mcgriff whooo???

what was mattingly's "pizazz" then? what's exciting things is he remembered for? playing on some bad yankees teams? never going to the world series? breaking no records? crapping out after only 6 seasons? because his bats go for a mint. the only thing that comes to mind is the time he refused to cut his mullet. in a way, mattingly reminds me of dale murphy, except that murphy lasted longer than 6 seasons and won 2 MVPs compared to mattingly's 1. is there any interest in dale murphy bats? mattingly's bats are rare but so are mcgriffs' from the same pre-1990 time frame.

you say ripken's premium comes from breaking gehrig's record. where's henderson's premium then for breaking lou brock's record? it's not there. both them are non-HR records yet only ripkens seems to have added a premium. ripken is remembered for breaking gehrig's record but henderson isn't remembered for breaking brocks'? any way you slice it, ripken and mattingly prices are pretty strange.

rudy.

byergo
02-28-2009, 04:24 PM
The reasons Bo Jackson items bring top dollar: he is revered all over the country--particularly Alabama, KC, Oakland/LA, Chicago, Anaheim, (note: LA and Chicago are the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the US = HUGE fan base), his GU items are scarce, many consider him to be the greatest athlete ever, and he did it CLEAN.

Watch this amazing highlight reel and let me know who is as exciting to watch as Bo?:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1893021144722060873

Trying to compare another mere mortal to Bo is akin to comparing them to Superman. They always fail in comparison. No other athlete is compared to Bo because who else can run a 4.19 forty, and hit Ruthian homeruns? It would be laughable. Even when stacked up against HOF'ers and supposedly great athletes Bo makes them look like chumps. There are plenty of players where you have to think to yourself: "What is their most memorable/remarkable play?" What did they do that displayed greatness?" For Bo the reverse is true: "Which of this never ending highlight reel of freakish, mind-blowing plays should I pick?"

His body of work is not just 4 years in the NFL and 8 years in MLB (playing two professional sports at the same time nonetheless), but also 4 years of completely dominating D-I football winning the Heisman Trophy and entry to the Collegiate Football HOF, as well as amazing feats in track and baseball. His sports marketing acomplishments and pop culture significance are icing on the cake.

Some collectors are more into the professional athlete "lifetime achievement" category, while some appreciate the amazing awe inspiring athlete.

On the eighth day God created Bo Jackson.

kingjammy24
02-28-2009, 05:20 PM
The reasons Bo Jackson items bring top dollar: he is revered all over the country--particularly Alabama, KC, Oakland/LA, Chicago, Anaheim, (note: LA and Chicago are the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the US = HUGE fan base), his GU items are scarce, many consider him to be the greatest athlete ever, and he did it CLEAN.

Watch this amazing highlight reel and let me know who is as exciting to watch as Bo?:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1893021144722060873

Trying to compare another mere mortal to Bo is akin to comparing them to Superman. They always fail in comparison. No other athlete is compared to Bo because who else can run a 4.19 forty, and hit Ruthian homeruns? It would be laughable. Even when stacked up against HOF'ers and supposedly great athletes Bo makes them look like chumps. There are plenty of players where you have to think to yourself: "What is their most memorable/remarkable play?" What did they do that displayed greatness?" For Bo the reverse is true: "Which of this never ending highlight reel of freakish, mind-blowing plays should I pick?"

His body of work is not just 4 years in the NFL and 8 years in MLB (playing two professional sports at the same time nonetheless), but also 4 years of completely dominating D-I football winning the Heisman Trophy and entry to the Collegiate Football HOF, as well as amazing feats in track and baseball. His sports marketing acomplishments and pop culture significance are icing on the cake.

Some collectors are more into the professional athlete "lifetime achievement" category, while some appreciate the amazing awe inspiring athlete.

On the eighth day God created Bo Jackson.

wow! all wrapped up in a deceptive .250 career batting avg. all the strikeouts were probably a part of his master plan..to..avoid..getting on base..or something. never able to crack more than 32 HRs in a season, i'm guessing bo was holding back his monstrous power on purpose lest he send a shot into orbit and knock a planet out of alignment...or just to avoid scoring more runs. ripken once hit 34 HRs. ruthian!

revered by so many hundreds of millions of adoring fans that he made the all-star team once in 8 years. again, part of his master plan...to..avoid racking up the awards...thus..saving money on shelf space.

have you considered loaning your jackson jerseys to the louvre? or the smithsonian? or would they just make the mona lisa or the wright flyer look like worthless trinkets? you could possibly sell them and use the money to buy new york city. of course, then you'd be only be known as the guy who owns new york city which pales in comparison to the being the guy with a bo jackson jersey. humility has its perks though.

rudy.

byergo
02-28-2009, 05:26 PM
Joe P @ KC Star says it better than I ever could:
---------------------------------------------------------

Between the Seams | Recalling Bo Jackson's days in baseball
By Joe Posnanski


Bo Jackson hit monstrous home runs, made miraculous defensive plays and stunned opponents with his speed. "This is not a normal guy," said teammate George Brett.



KANSAS CITY, Mo. — OK, so one day in New York, Bo Jackson complained in the dugout before a game. Reporters surrounded Bo, which never made him happy anyway. Reporters wanted to explain things, and Bo Jackson wasn't about explaining. Bo was about doing.

"Everything I do, people tend to exaggerate it," he moaned. "With me, they want to make things bigger than they are."

Bo said he was just another guy. He wasn't some sort of folk hero, like John Henry or Pecos Bill. No, he hurt like other players. He made mistakes like other players. He struck out a lot. He wasn't forged out of steel, and he couldn't outrun locomotives, and he couldn't turn back time by flying around the world and reversing the rotation of the earth.

"I'm just another player, you know?" he said.

Then the game began, Royals versus Yankees at Yankee Stadium.

First time up, Bo hit a 412-foot homer to center field.

Second time up, Bo smashed a 464-foot opposite-field home run. Longtime Yankees fans said that ball landed in a far-off place where only home runs by Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle from the left side ever reached.

"Colossal," teammate George Brett would say. "I had to stop and watch."

Third time up, Yankees manager Stump Merrill walked out to the mound to ask pitcher Andy Hawkins how he intended to get Bo out this time.

"I'll pitch it outside," Hawkins said.

"It better be way outside," Merrill replied.

Hawkins threw it way outside. Jackson poked the ball over the right-field fence for his third homer. The New York crowd went bananas.

Bo never got a fourth time up that day. Instead, he hurt his shoulder while diving and almost making one of the great catches in baseball history. New Yorkers stood and cheered as he walked off the field.

"You know what?" Royals Hall of Famer Frank White said almost 20 years later. "I really did play baseball with Superman."

It began a generation ago

It has been 20 years since Bo Jackson was a rookie. An entire generation of young baseball fans never experienced the thrill of watching Bo play baseball.

How can you explain Bo Jackson to a kid today? Old-time baseball fans and scouts tell tall tales about players. "Oh, you should have seen Mickey Mantle before he hurt his knees; he ran so fast he could bunt for doubles," they'll say.

Or, "Before Pete Reiser started running into walls, he could play left field and center field at the same time."

Or, "There was nobody quite like Monte Irvin before he went to war; he used to hit for the cycle three times a week."

So what makes Bo different? Well, for one thing, it's all on video. Bo really did break a baseball bat over his thigh after striking out. Bo really did throw a ball from left field all the way to first base on a fly to double up Hall of Fame catcher Carlton Fisk. Bo really did, in his spare time, transform into the most sensational running back the NFL has ever seen. He really did ... well, he really did a lot of stuff.

But Bo Jackson was always grouchily unimpressed with himself. Michael Jordan thought that was part of Bo's magic. "Neither of us is very easily amazed," Jordan told Newsweek in those days when he and Bo were the two greatest athletes in the world.

When Bo Jackson was called up to the big leagues after only 53 minor-league games, he shrugged. When he had his first four-hit game in only his fifth game, he announced, "It's just another night."

Two days after that, he faced Seattle's Mike Moore, a power pitcher who would win 161 games in the big leagues. Before the game, Bo went over to Willie Wilson's bats, liked the feel of one, and announced, "This is mine."

With Willie's bat, Bo hit a 475-foot blast to left-center, the longest home run ever hit at Royals Stadium.

"There's something about Bo," Royals general manager John Schuerholz said then. "Call it mystical or magical."

Sept. 2, 1986: Bo's first game. His first at-bat was against Hall of Famer Steve Carlton. He hit a ground ball to second base, and Tim Hulett picked it up and threw to first — only Bo was already past the bag.

"Oh man, nothing that big should move that fast," said Royals Hall of Famer and former hitting coach John Mayberry.

July 29, 1988: Bo Jackson was facing Baltimore's Jeff Ballard. He called timeout and stepped out of the box. He adjusted his batting glove when he realized that the umpire did not actually grant his timeout, and Ballard was throwing the ball. Jackson jumped back into the box, swung that bat and ... yeah. He hit a home run.

"Most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life," says Bob Schaeffer, Kansas City's first-base coach at the time.

May 15, 1989: Baseball writer Peter Gammons was in Minnesota to write a Sports Illustrated cover story about Jackson, so he watched Bo take batting practice. It was a typical Bo hitting session — he cracked rockets all over the field. Then it was time for his last swing. Bo jumped into the cage and hit left-handed.

He hit a titanic shot 450 feet off the Hardware Hank sign in right field.

Left-handed.

"I got work to do," Bo said to the other players, whose jaws had dropped. He ran out to the outfield to shag some fly balls.

July 11, 1990: Bo ran up the outfield wall. Literally. He chased down a fly ball and caught it about four steps in front of the fence. He put his right foot on the wall, then his left, then his right — until he was 7 feet off the ground and sideways. For a guy who didn't want to be seen as a superhero, he sure kept doing superhero things.

"What do you think of Bo Jackson?" a reporter asked Bo Jackson.

"I've known this guy for years," Bo said of Bo. "And nothing he does fazes me."

"The Throw"

There are so many more. Once, he ran over catcher Rick Dempsey. Dempsey broke his thumb but said, "I held him to fewer yards than Brian Bosworth." That goes back to a Monday night game.

And we don't even have time for all the legendary football stories.

"The Throw" deserves its own section, however. On June 5, 1989, the Royals were playing at Seattle. It was the 10th inning, score was tied 3-3, Harold Reynolds was on first base when Scott Bradley rifled a double to left field. Reynolds was running on the pitch, so it was obvious he would score the winning run. He rounded third, headed for home and prepared to have his teammates mob him when he saw his teammate Darnell Coles pumping his arms, the baseball signal for "SLIDE!"

Reynolds thought: "Slide? Are you kidding me?"

So, he was about to launch into what he called "a courtesy slide" when he saw that Kansas City catcher Bob Boone had the ball. Boone tagged him.

Bo Jackson had made a flatfooted throw of 300 feet in the air. It was a perfect strike. It was so impossible, so ridiculous, so absurd that no umpire was on the spot to make the call. Plate umpire Larry Young finally came to his senses and made a fist — Reynolds was out.

"Now I've seen it all," Scott Bradley said.

"This is not a normal guy," said teammate George Brett.

"That was just a supernatural, unbelievable play," said Seattle manager Jim Lefebve.

"I just caught the ball, turned and threw," Bo grumbled. "End of story. ... It's nothing to brag about. Don't try to make a big issue out of it."

Bo Jackson's baseball career really ended on a football field in Los Angeles. He hurt his hip against the Cincinnati Bengals. He did come back and did a few remarkable things after that, but it was different. He wasn't superhuman anymore.

Harry Houdini in cleats

The thing is, anyone who saw him play will never forget him. Every game was like a Harry Houdini performance — you expected to see something you had never seen before.

This story began with that July day in 1990 at Yankee Stadium when Bo Jackson hit three home runs before being injured.

He missed more than a month, then returned on Aug. 11 to face Seattle. He came up in the second inning. The pitcher was Randy Johnson. First pitch, Bo crushed a long fly ball to center field. The ball splashed in the waterfall to the left of the scoreboard. The Royals estimated the homer flew 450 feet.

"I'm not trying to brag," Jackson said. "But I actually saw the threads on the ball right before I hit it."

For once, Bo Jackson had impressed himself. And that might have been his greatest feat of all.

cjw
02-28-2009, 05:50 PM
Joe P @ KC Star says it better than I ever could:
---------------------------------------------------------

Between the Seams | Recalling Bo Jackson's days in baseball
By Joe Posnanski


Bo Jackson hit monstrous home runs, made miraculous defensive plays and stunned opponents with his speed. "This is not a normal guy," said teammate George Brett.



KANSAS CITY, Mo. — OK, so one day in New York, Bo Jackson complained in the dugout before a game. Reporters surrounded Bo, which never made him happy anyway. Reporters wanted to explain things, and Bo Jackson wasn't about explaining. Bo was about doing.

"Everything I do, people tend to exaggerate it," he moaned. "With me, they want to make things bigger than they are."

Bo said he was just another guy. He wasn't some sort of folk hero, like John Henry or Pecos Bill. No, he hurt like other players. He made mistakes like other players. He struck out a lot. He wasn't forged out of steel, and he couldn't outrun locomotives, and he couldn't turn back time by flying around the world and reversing the rotation of the earth.

"I'm just another player, you know?" he said.

Then the game began, Royals versus Yankees at Yankee Stadium.

First time up, Bo hit a 412-foot homer to center field.

Second time up, Bo smashed a 464-foot opposite-field home run. Longtime Yankees fans said that ball landed in a far-off place where only home runs by Ruth, Gehrig and Mantle from the left side ever reached.

"Colossal," teammate George Brett would say. "I had to stop and watch."

Third time up, Yankees manager Stump Merrill walked out to the mound to ask pitcher Andy Hawkins how he intended to get Bo out this time.

"I'll pitch it outside," Hawkins said.

"It better be way outside," Merrill replied.

Hawkins threw it way outside. Jackson poked the ball over the right-field fence for his third homer. The New York crowd went bananas.

Bo never got a fourth time up that day. Instead, he hurt his shoulder while diving and almost making one of the great catches in baseball history. New Yorkers stood and cheered as he walked off the field.

"You know what?" Royals Hall of Famer Frank White said almost 20 years later. "I really did play baseball with Superman."

It began a generation ago

It has been 20 years since Bo Jackson was a rookie. An entire generation of young baseball fans never experienced the thrill of watching Bo play baseball.

How can you explain Bo Jackson to a kid today? Old-time baseball fans and scouts tell tall tales about players. "Oh, you should have seen Mickey Mantle before he hurt his knees; he ran so fast he could bunt for doubles," they'll say.

Or, "Before Pete Reiser started running into walls, he could play left field and center field at the same time."

Or, "There was nobody quite like Monte Irvin before he went to war; he used to hit for the cycle three times a week."

So what makes Bo different? Well, for one thing, it's all on video. Bo really did break a baseball bat over his thigh after striking out. Bo really did throw a ball from left field all the way to first base on a fly to double up Hall of Fame catcher Carlton Fisk. Bo really did, in his spare time, transform into the most sensational running back the NFL has ever seen. He really did ... well, he really did a lot of stuff.

But Bo Jackson was always grouchily unimpressed with himself. Michael Jordan thought that was part of Bo's magic. "Neither of us is very easily amazed," Jordan told Newsweek in those days when he and Bo were the two greatest athletes in the world.

When Bo Jackson was called up to the big leagues after only 53 minor-league games, he shrugged. When he had his first four-hit game in only his fifth game, he announced, "It's just another night."

Two days after that, he faced Seattle's Mike Moore, a power pitcher who would win 161 games in the big leagues. Before the game, Bo went over to Willie Wilson's bats, liked the feel of one, and announced, "This is mine."

With Willie's bat, Bo hit a 475-foot blast to left-center, the longest home run ever hit at Royals Stadium.

"There's something about Bo," Royals general manager John Schuerholz said then. "Call it mystical or magical."

Sept. 2, 1986: Bo's first game. His first at-bat was against Hall of Famer Steve Carlton. He hit a ground ball to second base, and Tim Hulett picked it up and threw to first — only Bo was already past the bag.

"Oh man, nothing that big should move that fast," said Royals Hall of Famer and former hitting coach John Mayberry.

July 29, 1988: Bo Jackson was facing Baltimore's Jeff Ballard. He called timeout and stepped out of the box. He adjusted his batting glove when he realized that the umpire did not actually grant his timeout, and Ballard was throwing the ball. Jackson jumped back into the box, swung that bat and ... yeah. He hit a home run.

"Most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life," says Bob Schaeffer, Kansas City's first-base coach at the time.

May 15, 1989: Baseball writer Peter Gammons was in Minnesota to write a Sports Illustrated cover story about Jackson, so he watched Bo take batting practice. It was a typical Bo hitting session — he cracked rockets all over the field. Then it was time for his last swing. Bo jumped into the cage and hit left-handed.

He hit a titanic shot 450 feet off the Hardware Hank sign in right field.

Left-handed.

"I got work to do," Bo said to the other players, whose jaws had dropped. He ran out to the outfield to shag some fly balls.

July 11, 1990: Bo ran up the outfield wall. Literally. He chased down a fly ball and caught it about four steps in front of the fence. He put his right foot on the wall, then his left, then his right — until he was 7 feet off the ground and sideways. For a guy who didn't want to be seen as a superhero, he sure kept doing superhero things.

"What do you think of Bo Jackson?" a reporter asked Bo Jackson.

"I've known this guy for years," Bo said of Bo. "And nothing he does fazes me."

"The Throw"

There are so many more. Once, he ran over catcher Rick Dempsey. Dempsey broke his thumb but said, "I held him to fewer yards than Brian Bosworth." That goes back to a Monday night game.

And we don't even have time for all the legendary football stories.

"The Throw" deserves its own section, however. On June 5, 1989, the Royals were playing at Seattle. It was the 10th inning, score was tied 3-3, Harold Reynolds was on first base when Scott Bradley rifled a double to left field. Reynolds was running on the pitch, so it was obvious he would score the winning run. He rounded third, headed for home and prepared to have his teammates mob him when he saw his teammate Darnell Coles pumping his arms, the baseball signal for "SLIDE!"

Reynolds thought: "Slide? Are you kidding me?"

So, he was about to launch into what he called "a courtesy slide" when he saw that Kansas City catcher Bob Boone had the ball. Boone tagged him.

Bo Jackson had made a flatfooted throw of 300 feet in the air. It was a perfect strike. It was so impossible, so ridiculous, so absurd that no umpire was on the spot to make the call. Plate umpire Larry Young finally came to his senses and made a fist — Reynolds was out.

"Now I've seen it all," Scott Bradley said.

"This is not a normal guy," said teammate George Brett.

"That was just a supernatural, unbelievable play," said Seattle manager Jim Lefebve.

"I just caught the ball, turned and threw," Bo grumbled. "End of story. ... It's nothing to brag about. Don't try to make a big issue out of it."

Bo Jackson's baseball career really ended on a football field in Los Angeles. He hurt his hip against the Cincinnati Bengals. He did come back and did a few remarkable things after that, but it was different. He wasn't superhuman anymore.

Harry Houdini in cleats

The thing is, anyone who saw him play will never forget him. Every game was like a Harry Houdini performance — you expected to see something you had never seen before.

This story began with that July day in 1990 at Yankee Stadium when Bo Jackson hit three home runs before being injured.

He missed more than a month, then returned on Aug. 11 to face Seattle. He came up in the second inning. The pitcher was Randy Johnson. First pitch, Bo crushed a long fly ball to center field. The ball splashed in the waterfall to the left of the scoreboard. The Royals estimated the homer flew 450 feet.

"I'm not trying to brag," Jackson said. "But I actually saw the threads on the ball right before I hit it."

For once, Bo Jackson had impressed himself. And that might have been his greatest feat of all.

He was entertaining. He couldn't pull off an English accent though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekL3Nm4VD0M

Yankwood
02-28-2009, 05:57 PM
Perhaps supply and demand come into play here also. For as great as he was, I think I might hold him higher than alot of you do, Joe Morgan bats have never brought in much money either. Especially the ones from very late in his career. Very plentiful and thus, not very expensive.

suave1477
02-28-2009, 07:08 PM
what was mattingly's "pizazz" then? what's exciting things is he remembered for? playing on some bad yankees teams? never going to the world series? breaking no records? crapping out after only 6 seasons? because his bats go for a mint. the only thing that comes to mind is the time he refused to cut his mullet. in a way, mattingly reminds me of dale murphy, except that murphy lasted longer than 6 seasons and won 2 MVPs compared to mattingly's 1. is there any interest in dale murphy bats? mattingly's bats are rare but so are mcgriffs' from the same pre-1990 time frame.

you say ripken's premium comes from breaking gehrig's record. where's henderson's premium then for breaking lou brock's record? it's not there. both them are non-HR records yet only ripkens seems to have added a premium. ripken is remembered for breaking gehrig's record but henderson isn't remembered for breaking brocks'? any way you slice it, ripken and mattingly prices are pretty strange.

rudy.

I agree with you on Mattingly wasn't that great as his bats are valued for, but it was a NY Yankee favorite. What made him stick out was that he above average during a Yankee era where most were below average. Plus his game used items are scarce.
Again - Popularity + Rarity = High Premium

Now I am shocked at your comparison of Gehrig/Ripken vs Brock/Henderson

I am not even sure if you were serious about that comparison???

I mean seriously that is a No Brainer - I am not trying to be insulting so please do not take it that way - just trying to make a point.

Gehrigs stats and Popularity
BA. 340
HR 493
AB 8001
2 X MVP
7 X All Star
7 x Voted Top Ten MVP
Hits 2721
AL Triple Crown
6 x WS Champ
23 Grand Slams
Most BB by a First Baseman
(Stats go on and on)
Stats are compared to 7 other Hall of Famers
Not to mention was part of the 1 - 2 punch of Babe Ruth
Was on the Yankees - a huge market fan base team
Gave the greatest sports speech.
Died 2 Years later in 1941 - Died way before his time
Held one of Baseball longest records to play in games. (Which was he was most famous for due to dying of an illness that caused him to stop playing)

Cal Ripken Jr.
Broke the most coveted record of a man who did all that

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lou Brock stats and popularity
BA. 293
HR 149
6 X all Star
5 X Voted Top Ten MVP
Hits 3023
SB 938
2 x WS Champ
Stats compared to 5 Hall of famers
Was on the Reds team - nowhere near the fan base of the Yankees

Rickey Henderson
Broke his stolen base record


Do you see the difference??

How can you compare Gehrig and Brock to be the same?

bigtruck260
02-28-2009, 07:33 PM
McGwire bats are desireable because it was never proven that he took steroids. His bats that are legit are usually blasted with use, and in all probability, if you have a 1998-1999 model there is a very high probability that he hit a homer(s) with it. If he had confessed to juicing point blank...things MIGHT have been different.

I am one of those people that would pay handsomely (if I had the cash right now) for a Mac bat with heavy use and team paperwork...and from what I have seen - $2000 seems about par for the course. Guys my age (33) and around my age have strong memories of Mac's whole career...and it was, for some of us, very entertaining. Nostalgia is the other half.

OVERPRICED, overhyped - overdone...Derek Jeter. Sorry, he is an average player who had a few good seasons. His defense is terrible, the worst. If he played in any other city, his value would be FAR less than $1-2K for a cracked bat.

Magglio Ordonez is undervalued. His numbers are off the charts, yet I have seen bats of his sell for less than $100.

spartakid
02-28-2009, 07:43 PM
Bigtruck- Wasn't Ordonez tied to steriods? I bet that's why his bats have lost value.

kingjammy24
02-28-2009, 08:01 PM
"Do you see the difference??"

yes but i'm not sure what that has to do with anything. from what i can follow of your logic, you're saying that since gehrig was a better player than brock, gehrig's record means more. that's some logic. so the importance of a record is dependent on how good a player the recordholder was?

the importance of a record is inherant in the record and not who held it. otherwise why would people place so much importance on the single season HR record when it was held by an otherwise mediocre player like maris? it's the record that matters, not the record holder.

gehrig was a great player who accomplished much and just happened to hold the consecutive game streak. it was a coincidence that a great player held the streak. the consecutive game record could be held by anyone lucky enough to stay healthy. it could've been held by steve trout for pete's sake or whoever else managed to show up at the park for the most consecutive games. and then what..ripken would've broken steve trout's record. you seem to imply that by breaking gehrig's record, ripken became as good as gehrig. in a performance-based record, it'd be true. in '61 maris did become a better single-season HR hitter than ruth. but ripken didn't become as good as gehrig simply by showing up to the park more times. he was just healthier and luckier. henderson's record on the other hand will only be broken by a faster, smarter baserunner.

"How can you compare Gehrig and Brock to be the same?"

where did i compare gehrig with brock? it was you who compared the two and then concluded that since gehrig was better than brock, ripken's record means more than hendersons. i simply said that upon breaking a non-HR record, ripken's bats saw a premium whereas henderson's didn't. do you see the difference?

rudy.

kingjammy24
02-28-2009, 08:15 PM
McGwire bats are desireable because it was never proven that he took steroids.

but when did collectors ever actually wait for proof before voting with their wallets? look at clemens and sosa. no proof on those two and their items have plummeted. i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom. i think even mcgwire collectors feel he juiced it but just don't care. like you said, they remember being entertained for a number of years and that's apparently all that really matters. i think you're right about nostalgia which amounts to popularity. ultimately, mcgwire's fans stuck by him and sosas' didn't. not sure why. same thing driving bo jackson prices; nostalgia. everyone remembers the "bo knows" commercials and how entertaining the whole bo campaign was. 20 yrs later, apparently bo knows long-term value.

rudy.

suave1477
02-28-2009, 08:30 PM
"Do you see the difference??"

yes but i'm not sure what that has to do with anything. from what i can follow of your logic, you're saying that since gehrig was a better player than brock, gehrig's record means more. that's some logic. so the importance of a record is dependent on how good a player the recordholder was?

the importance of a record is inherant in the record and not who held it. otherwise why would people place so much importance on the single season HR record when it was held by an otherwise mediocre player like maris? it's the record that matters, not the record holder.

gehrig was a great player who accomplished much and just happened to hold the consecutive game streak. it was a coincidence that a great player held the streak. the consecutive game record could be held by anyone lucky enough to stay healthy. it could've been held by steve trout for pete's sake or whoever else managed to show up at the park for the most consecutive games. and then what..ripken would've broken steve trout's record. you seem to imply that by breaking gehrig's record, ripken became as good as gehrig. in a performance-based record, it'd be true. in '61 maris did become a better single-season HR hitter than ruth. but ripken didn't become as good as gehrig simply by showing up to the park more times. he was just healthier and luckier. henderson's record on the other hand will only be broken by a faster, smarter baserunner.

"How can you compare Gehrig and Brock to be the same?"

where did i compare gehrig with brock? it was you who compared the two and then concluded that since gehrig was better than brock, ripken's record means more than hendersons. i simply said that upon breaking a non-HR record, ripken's bats saw a premium whereas henderson's didn't. do you see the difference?

rudy.

First you prove my point then dispute it.

Maybe this is a better example Gehrig held the record for 56 years and no one ever expected it to be broken (granted a record that means you have to show up at the ball park every day for your career and play a few innings every game)
But 56 year record is a very long time
I don't think anyone at this point is speculated to break Ripkens Record

Brocks record stood from 1979 till 1991 - 12 years
Not a very long time in comparison which makes the playing every day record and staying healthy seem that much more harder.

With already there is speculation that Jose Reyes if he was to stay healthy is on pace to passing Brock and possibly Henderson

But we will see.

Again it all boils down to popularity and Rareness.

Especially since Henderson pimped out his own equipment and added a lot more to the Game Used Hobby Market.

Yankwood
02-28-2009, 08:39 PM
McGwire bats are desireable because it was never proven that he took steroids. His bats that are legit are usually blasted with use, and in all probability, if you have a 1998-1999 model there is a very high probability that he hit a homer(s) with it. If he had confessed to juicing point blank...things MIGHT have been different.

I am one of those people that would pay handsomely (if I had the cash right now) for a Mac bat with heavy use and team paperwork...and from what I have seen - $2000 seems about par for the course. Guys my age (33) and around my age have strong memories of Mac's whole career...and it was, for some of us, very entertaining. Nostalgia is the other half.

OVERPRICED, overhyped - overdone...Derek Jeter. Sorry, he is an average player who had a few good seasons. His defense is terrible, the worst. If he played in any other city, his value would be FAR less than $1-2K for a cracked bat.

Magglio Ordonez is undervalued. His numbers are off the charts, yet I have seen bats of his sell for less than $100.Of course Jeter is an average player. The Hall of Fame is loaded with "average" players who have collected over 3000 hits and are "terrible" fielders who have won multiple gold gloves. I've done it-haven't you?:rolleyes:

suave1477
02-28-2009, 08:40 PM
but when did collectors ever actually wait for proof before voting with their wallets? look at clemens and sosa. no proof on those two and their items have plummeted. i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom. i think even mcgwire collectors feel he juiced it but just don't care. like you said, they remember being entertained for a number of years and that's apparently all that really matters. i think you're right about nostalgia which amounts to popularity. ultimately, mcgwire's fans stuck by him and sosas' didn't. not sure why. same thing driving bo jackson prices; nostalgia. everyone remembers the "bo knows" commercials and how entertaining the whole bo campaign was. 20 yrs later, apparently bo knows long-term value.

rudy.

This is a perfect point!!

Except to add why people stood more with Sosa (I think) then Mac was because Mac was the first one to break Maris record.

Here is another example:
Why are BMW so much more expensive then Honda Accords??

Is it that much better of a car noooo they break down just like Hondas do.
Some may even say Hondas don't break down as much.
Is the BMW roomier inside then a Honda nooo Actually a Honda Accord is more roomier then a BMW.
How about maintenance costs?
Is a BMW cheaper to fix? No
Actually a BMW probably costs about 3 times more to fix than a Honda Accord.
So why are they more expensive and people would rather have a BMW (Granted if they could afford it) over a Honda.
More Hondas are produced a year Vs. BMW
Maybe it's because BMW are faster. well really what dose it matter we all have to follow the same laws and drive up to the same speed.

Because of popularity and rareness!!

lund6771
02-28-2009, 09:25 PM
but when did collectors ever actually wait for proof before voting with their wallets? look at clemens and sosa. no proof on those two and their items have plummeted. i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom. i think even mcgwire collectors feel he juiced it but just don't care. like you said, they remember being entertained for a number of years and that's apparently all that really matters. i think you're right about nostalgia which amounts to popularity. ultimately, mcgwire's fans stuck by him and sosas' didn't. not sure why. same thing driving bo jackson prices; nostalgia. everyone remembers the "bo knows" commercials and how entertaining the whole bo campaign was. 20 yrs later, apparently bo knows long-term value.

rudy.


great thread!...for myself, I've always been interested in gettng both McGuire and Sosa bats for my collection...and also a Bo Jackson jersey from the Raiders...why is that I thought to myself after reading this thread?

Was it all the media hype that these guys were getting during their "primetime"?....built up by the media as "Superman"?....maybe...for me it has nothing to do with their stats...it's the way these players made me feel while watching them

For myself, McGuire's 1998 season got me interested in baseball again...it was so much fun watching him daily that year..and the media built him up as a Paul Bunyon...McGuire was folk lore..a big, strong, all-american type of guy..a hero

I think that Sosa was just along for the ride that year...his accomplishments in 98 made the whole story even better

If McGuire presented himself before congress the same way that Pailmero and Clemens did, I think that people would think differently of him now..but he didn't...I think that people almost feel sorry for him instead of anger that they feel towards Clemens and the others...they feel betrayed by these guys now because the lied to the public that day in congress

If McGuire would have accomplished his feats cleanly, I'm sure that his jerseys would be in the $10,000 range and bats would be $5000+....

A Bo Jackson Raiders jersey is so extremely rare...

the people that pay the big money for these items are the ones that remember that these guys were larger than life in a certain period in history..will my kids have any idea who Bo Jackson was?...probably not, but there are a lot of people in my generation that will, and those are the people that will pay the big money

suicide_squeeze
02-28-2009, 10:20 PM
for the most part, prices seem tied to player stats. beyond that, scarcity also plays a role. that said, there are a few players whose items have always struck me as notably overpriced and others as underpriced without any rhyme or reason. what players do you feel are inexplicably, oddly overpriced and/or underpriced? my list:

overpriced
----------

1) bo jackson. a solid KC Royals game-used jersey would fetch around $2k (even more if there's provenance). $2k+ for a guy who had a total of 4 good seasons and racked up these completely mediocre career stats:
141 career HRs
598 career hits
.250 career BA
never a single season with more than 32 HRs and 1 all-star game. his stats are on par with ron kittle and i don't see ron kittle jerseys going for $2k+. no doubt bo was very exciting but it was for a very, very brief amount of time.

2) mark mcgwire. i recently read about solid bats of his going for upwards of $2k. i imagine jerseys would be around $4k? what would prices be if he hadn't, you know, juiced it his entire career? $5k bats? the steroid fiasco decimated prices for canseco, sosa, and clemens items. it also deeply affected bonds' items. at least bonds racked up some impressive stats cleanly before he started juicing it in the latter half of his career. if canseco is to be believed, and he's been right on the money so far, mcgwire began juicing it early on in oakland. one big juiced career and his bats are still upwards of $2k? why did canseco and sosa take such a massive hit from it and not mcgwire? canseco bats can be had for peanuts. sosa's got more career HRs than mcgwire.

3) any rookie who's had a 1-2 yrs so far. eg: pedroia. jtbats is currently selling an ellsbury for $499. sure ellsbury's 2008 season with a thundering 9 HRs and a couldn't-quite-get-to-300 .280 BA is astounding
and has probably been replicated by only 8000 other major leaguers, but it makes me wonder why jtbats is charging much less for bats of frank thomas, gary sheffield, jim thome, etc.

underpriced
-----------

1) rickey henderson. one of the greatest ballplayers of all time, first ballot HOFer, over 3000 hits, holds the SB record, and yet his bats seem to go for around $500. compare that to ripken's bats that often go well over $1k.

2) frank thomas. thomas bats go for 1/3 to 1/2 of griffey bats. what is the big disparity between the two? neither have ever been implicated in the steroids mess. thomas has a clean 521 HRs and griffey has 611, but thomas has a .301 career BA compared to griffey's .288. sure griffey was a great outfielder for a while. i'm not knocking junior but was he really twice or three times the player thomas was? as for supply, griffey was a bat factory for his entire career, pumping stuff out to mill creek and coast to coast. certainly no scarcity for his bats. the price of thomas bats seem to be on par with sosa bats which is really confusing considering thomas' HRs are clean and sosas' aren't.

what other pricing oddities are out there?

rudy.

Rudy,

My take......

Bo Jackson's stuff has high demand for one reason and one reason only: He was a superstar athlete who was the ONLY one who ever made it as an All-Star in two professional sports. That alone makes his G.U. Items big time collectibles.

Mark McGwire.....tough case. No matter how you feel about him, I believe he will always have popularity in the game. His epic battle with Sosa was HUGE in '98, I can't remember a more popular time in the game (in our lifetime) than that duel.......and he was the first ever to hit 70 bombs in a single season, breaking Roger Maris' record on the way. Yes, it's obvious he used steroids, but he was a likeable guy......not an arrogant a-hole like Bonds, or aloof and disinterested like A-Rod can be. Last point on McGwire......He was always a big bomb hitter. Who knows where he would have ended up if he had done it square?

Underpriced......

Rickey Henderson......I will probably take a lot of heat for this, but.....I believe Ricky juiced. His body was that of a greek God, built like a brick s#!t house. He had that "strange" longevity thing going on too (make you think of anyone else who performed at a HIGH level LATE in his career?):eek:
Also, let's just say it's hard to warm up to the guy....His third-person conversations about himself are just this side of "Twilight Zone" stuff.

Frank Thomas......also some controversy in his career, mainly in the way he was ousted by the Sox. But I think his stuff is already on the rise, and will continue as time marches on. However, there is that big fat "Steroid" question mark hanging over his head.....basically a "guilt-by-assocition" unproven theory.

Here's to hoping he's clean, and was one of the good guys.

bigtruck260
02-28-2009, 10:22 PM
but when did collectors ever actually wait for proof before voting with their wallets? look at clemens and sosa. no proof on those two and their items have plummeted. i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom. i think even mcgwire collectors feel he juiced it but just don't care. like you said, they remember being entertained for a number of years and that's apparently all that really matters. i think you're right about nostalgia which amounts to popularity. ultimately, mcgwire's fans stuck by him and sosas' didn't. not sure why. same thing driving bo jackson prices; nostalgia. everyone remembers the "bo knows" commercials and how entertaining the whole bo campaign was. 20 yrs later, apparently bo knows long-term value.

rudy.


I was reading on CNN/SI the other day about how 'smart" Mac was for not implicating himself in the steroid scandal. This way, if it ever comes out as fact - he can't say he lied the way Clemens did. Lying on top of cheating is sinking lower than low. The public can forgive mistakes on some levels (NOT murder O.J.) but if you lie to them repeatedly, you just come off as a jerk - much the way A-Rod is looking right about now.

Personally, I believe that Mac juiced at some point. Maybe not his whole career - but certainly at some point when he was injured. I also think he worked very hard at his game...the folks in STL tend to treat baseball players like royalty. With Mac, many of them turned tail and ran ---but a few die hard collectors here drive the market up every time. The logic is (and I've bid before)...'Hey - there is a Mac bat on eBay that looks legit - Jeff Scott says it looks good...and it's only at $400 with a day left to go...I'll place a $600 (enter higher price) bid and see what happens.

There are different levels of disposable income, so there will be different limits. Logic in collecting tells you that even at $1200, a legit 1998 Mac bat is a deal. When you get to $1200 - why not go $1500? If you really want it, that is. I've never taken that plunge - but I will someday if I have to. I bet every person who has a bat of Mac's with great air tight provenance treats is as a showcase piece in thier collection (everyone but the afformentioned Mr. Scott, who has a conucopia of showcase pieces:D )

As for Magglio and roids - now that you mention it, yes, I think I do remember hearing something along those lines. I still think it's a deal for $100. If Magglio took steroids, he doesn't anymore (if he does, he's really stupid) and he's still got great numbers.

Carlos Lee is another one...

suicide_squeeze
02-28-2009, 10:42 PM
You know........Another VERY important thing about McGwire......

He didn't "hang on" to the game, sucking out the last few years he could to puff up his career stats. He quit at 38, turning down a huge contract and walking away from the game because he said his "body had had enough." That unselfish act made way for Pujols.

I think that left yet another positive in the minds of fans about the guy. That alone proved that he wasn't in it for the money, or the fame. He played the game because he enjoyed it, loved it, and he did give us all one HELL of a show.

As I mentioned in another prior thread, I truly believe that if he came out and told us all.......if he came clean about his use..........He would be forgiven with open arms (with some initial backlash) and, eventually, be elected to the Hall.

skyking26
02-28-2009, 11:30 PM
You know........Another VERY important thing about McGwire......

He didn't "hang on" to the game, sucking out the last few years he could to puff up his career stats. He quit at 38, turning down a huge contract and walking away from the game because he said his "body had had enough." That unselfish act made way for Pujols.

I think that left yet another positive in the minds of fans about the guy. That alone proved that he wasn't in it for the money, or the fame. He played the game because he enjoyed it, loved it, and he did give us all one HELL of a show.

As I mentioned in another prior thread, I truly believe that if he came out and told us all.......if he came clean about his use..........He would be forgiven with open arms (with some initial backlash) and, eventually, be elected to the Hall.
I agree. My dad as well as my wife think McGwire is one huge a*shole that let me down as well as so many others. People are people, not Gods. I always took the stance that McGwire was injured SO OFTEN (in fact his career looked over in 93-94 with foot, etc injuries and back to back 9 HR seasons), that he may have taken the steroids initially to heal. When he not only overcame injuries but it physically made him better, he continued.

We all know McGwire was a born natural HR hitter from little league on. His first hit as a little leaguer was a HR. He did not need roids to help his game. I have never liked the way he handled the congressional meetings. I think he damaged his rep there. Should he come up front humbly, and we all know he can because he is a likeable guy, I think he would be forgiver very quickly and in the Hall eventually. While many experts may point to him as a one dimensional guy, he was an entertainer and we all know about 1998. I'll never forget it sitting at home with my 1 pound, 8 oz. son. It kept my head on straight during some very tough times in my life then.

I also agree with suicide's passing of the torch analogy. If you go back, it's just the way life is. Kingman retired in 86 to make way for Mac and canseco, McGwire walked away from alot of $$ in 01 to make way for Pujols. For any negatives bestowed on McGwire's career, there are many bright spots. He never said a word about a team mate either.

I'd love to have a legit McGwire A's or Cards home jersey, Cards bat. Finding one is tuff. Those in the know keep an eye out for me, but I guess they are scarce...or my phone doesn't work!

Birdbats
02-28-2009, 11:50 PM
i remember when sosa bats were 4 figures. mac's bats have stayed up there in terms of price and sosa's did a race to the bottom.

rudy.

When McGwire retired, up until his fiasco on Capitol Hill, his signed Cardinals-era bats routinely sold at auction for $3,500-4,000. An airtight '98 bat could get $5K at auction. In the past few months, I've seen a perfect 2000 bat sell for as little as $1,100 ($1,500-1,800 is typical for non-'98 bats) and a perfect 1998 bat sell for a shade over $2K ($2,200-2,500 is typical). Both bats were purchased by Forum members. That's still a good chunk of change, but to suggest McGwire's prices have stayed "up there" is ignoring the fact that his bats now are selling for about 30-50 percent of what they used to fetch.

$1,000 Sosa bats today sell for $350-500 -- about the same loss of value, percentage-wise.

We could debate all day about who was more popular and why, but there's no question that Sosa's bats were (and are) much more plentiful than legit McGwire bats -- and that's the key reason for the disparity in price.

People who bought Sosa bats at their peak have lost hundreds of dollars in value. People who bought Mac bats at their peak have lost thousands.

panthrotc
03-01-2009, 12:03 AM
When McGwire retired, up until his fiasco on Capitol Hill, his signed Cardinals-era bats routinely sold at auction for $3,500-4,000. An airtight '98 bat could get $5K at auction. In the past few months, I've seen a perfect 2000 bat sell for as little as $1,100 ($1,500-1,800 is typical for non-'98 bats) and a perfect 1998 bat sell for a shade over $2K ($2,200-2,500 is typical). Both bats were purchased by Forum members. That's still a good chunk of change, but to suggest McGwire's prices have stayed "up there" is ignoring the fact that his bats now are selling for about 30-50 percent of what they used to fetch.

$1,000 Sosa bats today sell for $350-500 -- about the same loss of value, percentage-wise.

We could debate all day about who was more popular and why, but there's no question that Sosa's bats were (and are) much more plentiful than legit McGwire bats -- and that's the key reason for the disparity in price.

People who bought Sosa bats at their peak have lost hundreds of dollars in value. People who bought Mac bats at their peak have lost thousands.


jeff, what is it gonna take to get that mac HR bat outa your collection? is their anywhere you can point in the direction to a signed mac gamer? I have a 90 signed gamer and a 2000, but i need another one...

skyking26
03-01-2009, 12:06 AM
jeff, what is it gonna take to get that mac HR bat outa your collection? is their anywhere you can point in the direction to a signed mac gamer? I have a 90 signed gamer and a 2000, but i need another one...
Hell, I can't even find a signed regular Mac uncracked bat...

kingjammy24
03-01-2009, 12:30 AM
jason: i just didn't think your point made much, if any, sense: henderson breaking brock's SB record isn't as impressive as ripken breaking gehrig's consecutive game streak on the grounds that gehrig was a better overall player than brock? you're comparing the record-holders instead of the specific records themselves. even under your logic, there's the fact that brock broke ty cobb's previous single-season SB record and his career record and cobb was better than gehrig. as for long-standing records, it's true that brock's only stood for 12 years, but when he broke it in '77 it had stood for 76 years. it was simply bad timing that henderson arrived in the majors shortly after brock broke it.

as for reyes and passing henderson, henderson owns both the single season and all-time SB records. reyes has been in the majors 6 yrs already and the most he ever stole was 78. rickey did 100 his second season and then swiped 130. not only is his single-season record safe but in order for reyes to pass him career-wise, he'd have to steal 60 bases, every season, for the next 19 years. good luck.

it seems that when it comes to prices, popularity trumps actual performance.

re: bo jackson. i like bo a lot. he was a lot of fun. if a well-priced bat or jersey of his came up, i'd purchase it. i just don't get why an 80s jersey of a guy who never accomplished all that much is well over 4-figures. not counting the infinite wisdom of joe p., bo himself may have said it best when he said "Everything I do, people tend to exaggerate it," he moaned. "With me, they want to make things bigger than they are."
superhuman strength! superhuman strength that couldn't crank out more than 32 homers in '89, his best year. little howard johnson cranked out more home runs in '89 and so did 6 other guys who didn't have bo's superhuman strength. as for the tape measure homers, bo didn't set any records there either. a whole lot of guys hit them as far and further, including mantle, frank howard, kingman, and cecil fielder yet noone ever said they were from another planet. kingman's insane 530-footer tops any bo ever hit. his superhuman speed never translated to anything more than a career-best 27 SBs. i'm sure his strength and speed made for a great NFL Combine but on the baseball field, it didn't seem to amount to much other than a ton of strikeouts and some fun highlight reels. he was so loved by the fans that in his 4 best seasons, he was only voted to the all-star team once which is incredible given his popularity and therefore can only be viewed as a statement of how poorly bo compared to his peers during those years. gets named MVP at the '89 ASG, puts on a great show and doesn't even called as a reserve in 1990 despite having a typical year? (by the way, the 1990 ASG was held in chicago, one of the cities bo is revered according to byergo. apparently he couldn't even make the reserve squad to appear in one of his biggest fanbases).

pete i think you hit the nail on the head: "it's the way these players made me feel while watching them". honestly, it surprises me that mcgwire collectors don't care whether he juiced it or not. it was fun watching him and that's all that really seems to matter. apparently, the same doesn't apply to sosa for some reason.

"Bo Jackson's stuff has high demand for one reason and one reason only: He was a superstar athlete who was the ONLY one who ever made it as an All-Star in two professional sports. That alone makes his G.U. Items big time collectibles."

except that he wasn't the only one. brian jordan made the NFL Pro Bowl in '92 and the MLB All-Star team in 1999. jordan and jackson have similar career stats in baseball but jordan's jerseys go for a tiny fraction of jacksons'. deion sanders on the other hand is the only two-sporter who appeared in both a world series and a super bowl. championships are considered more valuable than all-star games and bo never went to either a world series or super bowl yet his items are still pricier than sanders'. all logic just seems to fly out the window.

re: rickey on the juice
canseco named a ton of names. canseco and henderson played together, sharing the outfield on the A's from '89-92, the prime mcgwire/canseco juicing years. canseco specifically addressed henderson in his first book and said that all he had to say about rickey was that he went to the park every day and worked his ass off. if henderson had juiced it then i don't see how canseco wouldn't have known and if he did, then i can't imagine why, of all people, canseco would've kept it quiet.

rudy.

chakes89
03-01-2009, 12:35 AM
Lou Brock stats and popularity
BA. 293
HR 149
6 X all Star
5 X Voted Top Ten MVP
Hits 3023
SB 938
2 x WS Champ
Stats compared to 5 Hall of famers
Was on the Reds team - nowhere near the fan base of the Yankees


Lou Brock was never on the Reds

kingjammy24
03-01-2009, 12:37 AM
When McGwire retired, up until his fiasco on Capitol Hill, his signed Cardinals-era bats routinely sold at auction for $3,500-4,000. An airtight '98 bat could get $5K at auction. In the past few months, I've seen a perfect 2000 bat sell for as little as $1,100 ($1,500-1,800 is typical for non-'98 bats) and a perfect 1998 bat sell for a shade over $2K ($2,200-2,500 is typical). Both bats were purchased by Forum members. That's still a good chunk of change, but to suggest McGwire's prices have stayed "up there" is ignoring the fact that his bats now are selling for about 30-50 percent of what they used to fetch.

$1,000 Sosa bats today sell for $350-500 -- about the same loss of value, percentage-wise.

We could debate all day about who was more popular and why, but there's no question that Sosa's bats were (and are) much more plentiful than legit McGwire bats -- and that's the key reason for the disparity in price.

People who bought Sosa bats at their peak have lost hundreds of dollars in value. People who bought Mac bats at their peak have lost thousands.

j. birdbats scott,

in '98 and '99 did sosa bats really only sell for $1k? during the height of sosa/mcgwire what did solid sosa bats go for?

rudy.

mr.miracle
03-01-2009, 08:03 AM
good responses and i agree with most of them. interesting to see there's pretty much a consensus of who's undervalued. great underpriced examples of mcgriff (493 clean HRs!), winfield, and especially raines who spent his entire career underrated.

also completely agree with the overpriced examples of mattingly ($2k+ for a bat of a non-HOFer who didn't set any records?) and ripken. boggs, gwynn, and puckett (all HOF'ers, all 3000-hit members) were what mattingly was supposed to be had he not crapped out so early and yet mattingly's bats are worth twice what boggs', gwynns', and pucketts are worth. supply explains some of it but i don't see a lot of nice early-career boggs, gwynns, or winfields flying around. i don't even see a lot of nice early career mcgriffs around and his bats go for peanuts. who knew hitting 493 clean HRs would be worth so little.

while i agree that the HR has been devalued ever since bonds made a complete mockery of it and hit 73 (73! very subtle barry! he may as well have hit 120) but you'd think that'd place an even bigger premium on clean sluggers like griffey, mcgriff, and thomas and it hasn't really. ripken and brett were never really HR guys and their items go for more than sluggers like mcgriff and thomas. (ripken still confuses me. small-market team, sub-500 HRs, sub-.300 hitter, good supply of his bats floating around and i never quite understood the excitement behind a consecutive-game streak).

mcgwire also confuses me. at one point, sosa was very popular (had his own pepsi commercials!) yet his popularity completely died out. on the other hand, despite everyone believing that mcgwire juiced it from beginning to end, he's still got a large enough fan base to support these high prices? at this point, it's becoming apparent that mcgwire is not getting into the HOF. yet his values are still at HOF prices. every other big-name steroid star was kicked to the curb, except mcgwire. his bats may be in relative short supply but does that matter if the majority of his career has one huge asterisk? solid bonds gamers are in short supply and folks couldn't care less. jeff kranz took a bath when he unloaded his bonds items. yet mcgwire juiced all he wanted and it doesn't really seem to have affected his collectability. maybe fans don't care as much about steroids as they let on? maybe if you're a friendly, HR-hitting, elbow-basher you'll get a free pass?

it seems popularity plays a huge role. you can miss the HOF and juice it your entire career but if you somehow manage to remain popular, then your items will be worth more than your peers who made the HOF and didn't juice it. crazy. sounds like collectors might be better off looking at popularity than stats.

rudy.

As a 20 plus year collector of Ripken and someone that lives 50 miles north of Baltimore and works in Baltimore city, I can say that it is very easy to underestimate the appeal that Ripken had. Don't forget first of all that DC did not have a team during Cal's career in the majors so you add the DC and Baltimore metro area poplulation giving you over 8 million people within that market. In addition, the southern part of PA is a very heavily populated Orioles hotbed so you are probably looking at in excess of 9 million people all situated within a 100 mile radius of Baltimore alone.

Having collected Cal for over 20 years, I can tell you that while I don't necessarily know his overall appeal across the country, I do know a number of devout Ripken collectors some in Denver, San Diego, Minneapolis, Boston, New York, Atlanta etc. His appeal stretched everywhere. A recent poll I just heard on the radio the other day amidst all of the recent steroid discussion asked which athlete current or former across all sports is the most trusted, easy to believe, role model type of athlete and Ripken was named #1.

I cannot overstate that at a time when the Orioles began slidding into mediocrity and below, Ripken was to Baltimore a notch below God. As Brooks Robinson was Mr. Oriole, Cal eclipsed even Brooks in Baltimore lore. In a recent sports poll in the city naming the greatest athlete in Baltimore history, only Johnny U beat out Cal.

While you can certainly argue that Ripken was by no means the greatest player of all time, or even perhaps of his own generation, his mass appeal as a clean and wholesome player who just showed up and played the game the right way is I think underestimated.

Ripken's appeal is that Baltimore prides itself as a blue collar pack your lunch and work hard all day long, town. Cal did that for 16 years without fail, and people in this region really identified with something out of an era long since passed. As someone who has not missed a day of work in over 20 years, I can certainly identify with that mentality of showing up, giving your best effort, in a day and age when I am luck if half of my staff can go two weeks without missing a day of work.

There is also a great deal of money in this area especially into the Washington and Southern PA areas. There are many, many Ripken and Oriole collectors who will pay a pretty penny for authentic Ripken items. That also coupled with the fact that while Cal's bats seem to show up fairly often, his Jersey's at least legit examples are still nearly impossible to find. I have seen probably 300 laughable jersey's of Cal's which were labeled game used over the past ten plus years and probably only five or six that I could say were rock solid. If you want a Ripken glove, forget about it, they do not exist. One or two reportedly got out of Cal's hands over his 21 year career. Unless you have the keys to the Ripken vault you just are not getting any gloves and you will probably be searching long and hard for legit game jerseys. Even Ripken bats from earlier in his career showing "solid, heavy use" are difficult to find. While you will see a number of Ripken bats out there, most don't show a great deal of overall use. So, you can find Ripken bats, just not often ones that are hammered with overall use.

All that being said, I too wish his game used bats, jersey's etc. were not so expensive. I would love to add more to my collection. I am guessing you are paying such a high premium for his jersey's because they are nearly impossible to find. Add to the fact that Cal has never sold off his game used gear or inscribed it game used and sold it etc. and you have a bit of a premium placed on the truly unique and hard to find collectible.

mr.miracle
03-01-2009, 08:09 AM
I agree. My dad as well as my wife think McGwire is one huge a*shole that let me down as well as so many others. People are people, not Gods. I always took the stance that McGwire was injured SO OFTEN (in fact his career looked over in 93-94 with foot, etc injuries and back to back 9 HR seasons), that he may have taken the steroids initially to heal. When he not only overcame injuries but it physically made him better, he continued.

We all know McGwire was a born natural HR hitter from little league on. His first hit as a little leaguer was a HR. He did not need roids to help his game. I have never liked the way he handled the congressional meetings. I think he damaged his rep there. Should he come up front humbly, and we all know he can because he is a likeable guy, I think he would be forgiver very quickly and in the Hall eventually. While many experts may point to him as a one dimensional guy, he was an entertainer and we all know about 1998. I'll never forget it sitting at home with my 1 pound, 8 oz. son. It kept my head on straight during some very tough times in my life then.

I also agree with suicide's passing of the torch analogy. If you go back, it's just the way life is. Kingman retired in 86 to make way for Mac and canseco, McGwire walked away from alot of $$ in 01 to make way for Pujols. For any negatives bestowed on McGwire's career, there are many bright spots. He never said a word about a team mate either.

I'd love to have a legit McGwire A's or Cards home jersey, Cards bat. Finding one is tuff. Those in the know keep an eye out for me, but I guess they are scarce...or my phone doesn't work!

While McGwire has completely faded out of the public eye and has become somewhat of a recluse over the past eight years or so, he was never necesaarily the type of person who thumbed their nose at the media and fans. I think McGwire values his privacy and in an age when some athletes have to be pried away from the sport kicking and screaming long after their careers are finished, McGwire had no problem simply walking away when he new the time was right.

The summer of 98 captivated baseball fans everywhere. I believe some of these comments are correct, the fact that McGwire did not wag his finger at Congress saying I did not take steroid period, or continue to fabricate ridiculous stories and try to cover up the truth, probably helped him in the publics eye. St. Louis is an incredible baseball town where the fans are loyal almost to a fault. While Mac probably forever tranished him image that day on capitol hill in the minds of many, he will forever have a fan base in St. Louis and elsewhere based on that magic summer of 98 whether or not it was pumped up, juiced up or whatever.

sylbry
03-01-2009, 09:19 AM
The reasons Bo Jackson items bring top dollar: he is revered all over the country--particularly Alabama, KC, Oakland/LA, Chicago, Anaheim, (note: LA and Chicago are the 2nd and 3rd largest cities in the US = HUGE fan base), his GU items are scarce, many consider him to be the greatest athlete ever, and he did it CLEAN.

Watch this amazing highlight reel and let me know who is as exciting to watch as Bo?:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1893021144722060873

Trying to compare another mere mortal to Bo is akin to comparing them to Superman. They always fail in comparison. No other athlete is compared to Bo because who else can run a 4.19 forty, and hit Ruthian homeruns? It would be laughable. Even when stacked up against HOF'ers and supposedly great athletes Bo makes them look like chumps. There are plenty of players where you have to think to yourself: "What is their most memorable/remarkable play?" What did they do that displayed greatness?" For Bo the reverse is true: "Which of this never ending highlight reel of freakish, mind-blowing plays should I pick?"

His body of work is not just 4 years in the NFL and 8 years in MLB (playing two professional sports at the same time nonetheless), but also 4 years of completely dominating D-I football winning the Heisman Trophy and entry to the Collegiate Football HOF, as well as amazing feats in track and baseball. His sports marketing acomplishments and pop culture significance are icing on the cake.

Some collectors are more into the professional athlete "lifetime achievement" category, while some appreciate the amazing awe inspiring athlete.

On the eighth day God created Bo Jackson.

That's some serious man-love.

skyking26
03-01-2009, 09:44 AM
That's some serious man-love.
Yea, definate Bo-lover there.

kingjammy24
03-01-2009, 12:59 PM
As a 20 plus year collector of Ripken...

hey brett,

very good posts on ripken and mcgwire. i think they pretty much fully explain ripken and mcgwire values. moreso, i think they also explain ripken and mcgwires' popularity. while ripken, for me, wasn't terribly electric to watch, he did stand out from his superstar peers in terms of the wholesome way he conducted himself on and off the field. during ripken's time, there were better hitters, more powerful hitters, and better fielders but for various reasons they didn't connect with fans the way that ripken apparently did.

while i understand ripken's appeal and the consequent effect on his items, weren't there other "regional ripkens" (players who held immense, deep-seated appeal in a given region) whose items are as rare and still far cheaper? ozzie smith? another very wholesome, clean-cut guy who played the game very well and play his entire career in a baseball-crazy town. his shirts aren't common yet they still don't command ripken prices.

in terms of items, of all the "superstar" jerseys from ripken's time period, the most jerseys i've ever seen from a single player have been ripkens'. you say that the overwhelming majority of those are fake and that's likely true. i'm just saying that over the past 10 yrs, if you looked at the supply of 90s superstar jerseys, ripken would definitely be in the top 2 or 3 and i don't even know who the others would be. i've seen more ripkens than griffeys and griffey was a memorabilia machine. that said, i also believe that ripken jerseys are the most frequently faked/doctored. the '95-'01 timeframe being responsible for the majority of them.

so ultimately, if it's popularity, rather than stats, that really supports prices who of today's players are going to be the overpriced/underpriced guys of tomorrow? arod and manny have to be two of the most unpopular guys around despite having incredible stats. no long term values for them? the dodgers haven't even signed him yet and already the entire city is disgusted with him. the guy brought a world series to boston, a city that'd been waiting for 86 years, and they still couldn't wait for him to leave!
arod also couldn't be more unpopular. i'm sure he'll set some records but the reaction will probably be as disinterested as when bonds hit 73. on the other hand, jeter could run for mayor of nyc despite many thinking he's an overrated player. in 2020 will jeter prices still be holding while manny's prices sank because of how unpopular he was?

who are the ripkens of today? the guys who aren't going to set any records but whose pieces will hold solid based mainly on their immense, long-term popularity? while there are lots of great players today, there don't really seem to be any that have the immense appeal that ripken did.

and how did sosa go from being beloved by a massive fanbase to competely forgotten? he hit over 600. he was 1/2 of the magical summer of '98. he played in a baseball-crazy town. technically he didn't lie..he just forgot how to speak english. mcgwire's still got a strong following but i don't think there's a single sosa fan left out there.

rudy.

skyking26
03-01-2009, 01:36 PM
hey brett,

very good posts on ripken and mcgwire. i think they pretty much fully explain ripken and mcgwire values. moreso, i think they also explain ripken and mcgwires' popularity. while ripken, for me, wasn't terribly electric to watch, he did stand out from his superstar peers in terms of the wholesome way he conducted himself on and off the field. during ripken's time, there were better hitters, more powerful hitters, and better fielders but for various reasons they didn't connect with fans the way that ripken apparently did.

while i understand ripken's appeal and the consequent effect on his items, weren't there other "regional ripkens" (players who held immense, deep-seated appeal in a given region) whose items are as rare and still far cheaper? ozzie smith? another very wholesome, clean-cut guy who played the game very well and play his entire career in a baseball-crazy town. his shirts aren't common yet they still don't command ripken prices.

in terms of items, of all the "superstar" jerseys from ripken's time period, the most jerseys i've ever seen from a single player have been ripkens'. you say that the overwhelming majority of those are fake and that's likely true. i'm just saying that over the past 10 yrs, if you looked at the supply of 90s superstar jerseys, ripken would definitely be in the top 2 or 3 and i don't even know who the others would be. i've seen more ripkens than griffeys and griffey was a memorabilia machine. that said, i also believe that ripken jerseys are the most frequently faked/doctored. the '95-'01 timeframe being responsible for the majority of them.

so ultimately, if it's popularity, rather than stats, that really supports prices who of today's players are going to be the overpriced/underpriced guys of tomorrow? arod and manny have to be two of the most unpopular guys around despite having incredible stats. no long term values for them? the dodgers haven't even signed him yet and already the entire city is disgusted with him. the guy brought a world series to boston, a city that'd been waiting for 86 years, and they still couldn't wait for him to leave!
arod also couldn't be more unpopular. i'm sure he'll set some records but the reaction will probably be as disinterested as when bonds hit 73. on the other hand, jeter could run for mayor of nyc despite many thinking he's an overrated player. in 2020 will jeter prices still be holding while manny's prices sank because of how unpopular he was?

who are the ripkens of today? the guys who aren't going to set any records but whose pieces will hold solid based mainly on their immense, long-term popularity? while there are lots of great players today, there don't really seem to be any that have the immense appeal that ripken did.

and how did sosa go from being beloved by a massive fanbase to competely forgotten? he hit over 600. he was 1/2 of the magical summer of '98. he played in a baseball-crazy town. technically he didn't lie..he just forgot how to speak english. mcgwire's still got a strong following but i don't think there's a single sosa fan left out there.

rudy.
Thome is one of those guys like Sosa, I'll get back to that shortly.

First of all you asked about the Ripken's of regional areas: I give you Jim Thome. Playing in Cleveland, he was a God-like iconic figure there for his tenure with Indians. He held out when free agency came hoping to sign, and Indians brass wanted to sign him, but Philly offered a better deal. When it comes down to it, Jim is no different than anybody else. He has a young family and baseball careers are short. $$ matters. He gave Cleveland every opportunity to match it. How fickle that there are fans that now boo him when he comes in as a White Sox player. In Philly, ask anyone, he was revered. Try an locate ANY Philly Thome item... They are in collections and will stay there. In Chicago he is loved....

The point of all this? Each region he goes to he is highly respected. In my opinion, when he hit #500 he did it quietly. When he hits #600 not many will care. He is baseballs next Sammy Sosa, in that he is respected, but he just is not the household name. The interest level in his stuff is very low. Always has been. ZIf he'd have played in NY, doubtful that would be the case...

mr.miracle
03-01-2009, 01:49 PM
hey brett,

very good posts on ripken and mcgwire. i think they pretty much fully explain ripken and mcgwire values. moreso, i think they also explain ripken and mcgwires' popularity. while ripken, for me, wasn't terribly electric to watch, he did stand out from his superstar peers in terms of the wholesome way he conducted himself on and off the field. during ripken's time, there were better hitters, more powerful hitters, and better fielders but for various reasons they didn't connect with fans the way that ripken apparently did.

while i understand ripken's appeal and the consequent effect on his items, weren't there other "regional ripkens" (players who held immense, deep-seated appeal in a given region) whose items are as rare and still far cheaper? ozzie smith? another very wholesome, clean-cut guy who played the game very well and play his entire career in a baseball-crazy town. his shirts aren't common yet they still don't command ripken prices.

in terms of items, of all the "superstar" jerseys from ripken's time period, the most jerseys i've ever seen from a single player have been ripkens'. you say that the overwhelming majority of those are fake and that's likely true. i'm just saying that over the past 10 yrs, if you looked at the supply of 90s superstar jerseys, ripken would definitely be in the top 2 or 3 and i don't even know who the others would be. i've seen more ripkens than griffeys and griffey was a memorabilia machine. that said, i also believe that ripken jerseys are the most frequently faked/doctored. the '95-'01 timeframe being responsible for the majority of them.

so ultimately, if it's popularity, rather than stats, that really supports prices who of today's players are going to be the overpriced/underpriced guys of tomorrow? arod and manny have to be two of the most unpopular guys around despite having incredible stats. no long term values for them? the dodgers haven't even signed him yet and already the entire city is disgusted with him. the guy brought a world series to boston, a city that'd been waiting for 86 years, and they still couldn't wait for him to leave!
arod also couldn't be more unpopular. i'm sure he'll set some records but the reaction will probably be as disinterested as when bonds hit 73. on the other hand, jeter could run for mayor of nyc despite many thinking he's an overrated player. in 2020 will jeter prices still be holding while manny's prices sank because of how unpopular he was?

who are the ripkens of today? the guys who aren't going to set any records but whose pieces will hold solid based mainly on their immense, long-term popularity? while there are lots of great players today, there don't really seem to be any that have the immense appeal that ripken did.

and how did sosa go from being beloved by a massive fanbase to competely forgotten? he hit over 600. he was 1/2 of the magical summer of '98. he played in a baseball-crazy town. technically he didn't lie..he just forgot how to speak english. mcgwire's still got a strong following but i don't think there's a single sosa fan left out there.

rudy.

Rudy, excellent points the whole way around. I am not sure what it is or was about Cal that changed everything. I will say that from my own perspective, I think that for whatever reason that the streak galvanized many, many people across this country and that forever changed the way Cal was viewed. He was a very popular player prior to him breaking Lou's record but after that, it seemed like this really took him to a whole new level. While McGwire/Sosa are largely portrayed as having "saved baseball" after the 94 strike, I know that many many people kind of came back to the game during those couple of days in Sept. of 95 due to its magical and historical significance.

In one sense it is a very strange record in that it may be the only one that you could actually circle on the calendar at the beginning of the year and say this is the day. Although we know when a player is approaching 500 homers, 3000 hits, 755 or whatever your record is, we don't know when the player will get those marks. All the fanfare that led up to that Sept. 6, 1995 because it could be planned and the subsequent lap around the field the 21 minute standing ovation, all the pomp and circumstance have not and largely cannot be duplicated.

While Ozzie certainly was an icon to St. Louis he also did not play his entire career with one team like Cal and Tony Gwynn did for instance. I think it is a combination of factors with Cal. He played his whole career for one organization, he was born and raised in the area, his father was the heart and soul of the "Oriole Way" back in the days when Baltimore was a very relevant and feared team, having spent thirty plus years in the Orioles organization. Cal broke a record that whatever you regard in terms of its significance, was said to be unbreakable. One of only a handful of records that truly were or are unbreakable such as 511 career wins. He played with class and very few bad things to my knowledge have ever been said about him. He was very selfless in signing autographs for everyone game after game, year after year. The one negative that I have ever heard is that he was selfish for wanting to stay in the lineup. I tend to take the same approach at my jobs he took with his I think. If you have someone better let them do my job but I am the best at what I do and when that day comes that I am not, then replace me with someone better.

Cal was never the best hitter, never the best fielder, never the best power hitter, but then again, he must have really been a fan favorite everywhere to be elected to 19 all-star games. The fact that he did win 2 MVP awards is not too shabby either. I think it is more or less an example of a fairy tale story that often does not really happen in sports or elsewhere. About the only thing that I think could have topped what he did was if either the Orioles were more competitive over his years in Baltimore and or he would have homered in his final at bat a la Ted Williams.

In terms of Ripken Jersey's, you are right on the money, I would even say 93 - 01's are just everywhere. If Cal actually wore all the jersey's reported to be his by sellers, he would have been changing jersey's every other inning in every game of his career and giving them away. I believe you are right, Ripken jersey's are so often faked because of all of the stars of the 80's 90's etc. his jersey's are one of the highest selling premiums out there. I believe that the true collector that knows what to look for by and large can spot the fakes and as a result most of these go untouched or without any real sales figures.

Birdbats
03-01-2009, 03:18 PM
in '98 and '99 did sosa bats really only sell for $1k? during the height of sosa/mcgwire what did solid sosa bats go for?


Without having the old catalogs, I don't know how many legit gamers of Mac and Sosa were sold during 1998 and 1999, but I suspect there weren't many because it takes a little while for game-used items to filter into the hobby. I know a collector who says the Cubs retail store sold Sosa bats for $800 around that time; he bought 10 of them (and still has them).

I started archiving bat auction results in 2000, so I went back and took a look at auction prices from 2000-2003 (Mastro and Leland's), when prices were still high for both players.

I found four 1998 Sosa bats auctioned during that period. They sold from $949 to $1,254 and the average was $1,154.

I found six pre-1998 bats. They sold from $757 to $1,531 and the average was $978.

I found 16 post-1998 bats. Included among these was the bat used for HR #498 that was cut up on ESPN and examined for cork. It sold for $7,259. Also included was a documented HR bat, #63 from 1999 -- it sold for $3,342. Excluding these two bats, the highest price was $2,040 and the lowest was $643. The average for all 16 bats was $1,552; the average excluding the two "special" bats was $1,017.

Overall, the average price of all 26 bats was $1,358. Thirteen of those bats sold for less than $1,000, 13 sold for more. If you throw out the two "special" bats, the average price for 24 bats was $1,030.

Granted, auction values are influenced by many factors, such as use, condition, autographs, etc. I'm assuming these all were legit Sosa bats, which could be naive considering most McGwire bats sold in these auctions didn't demonstrate appropriate Mac characteristics. I also don't have any information on Sosa bats that were auctioned at Chicago-area charity events; those types of auctions always attract unusually high prices.

In the end, though, I think it's fair to say a collector could find a Sosa bat for $1,000 during those "peak" years when people were paying 3-4 times that much for legit Mac gamers.

earlywynnfan
03-01-2009, 09:57 PM
Yankwood-
Hope it's a joke on the Baines bats. He's actually on my want list... I'll take him or Raines off your hands. :p

I agree Brett is overpriced. Same on Mattingly...


I have a black/natural Baines Cooper bat with tremendous use, if you're interested. Let me know.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

metsmetsmets
03-02-2009, 01:24 AM
quick comment to answer this question: i meant underpriced and overpriced relative to other players of equal stats. eg: (hypothetical) paying $1000 for a brett bat but only $500 for a yount. my entire point was to compare similar players with wildely disparate prices. to keep with your rolls royce example, it has nothing to do with what you might spend or are able to spend. a rolls royce, at a $100k, would be overpriced IF you could buy a similarly equipped bentley at $50k. the two cars would be extremely similar in every aspect, including prestige, except for the price which would make it an oddity. this is my entire point.

rudy.

I understand entirely. But by one view, it might not matter. If a Bentley and a Rolls are the same in your hypothetical, then why does the Rolls command twice the price? Even by your hypothetical facts, the guy that wants the Rolls has to pay the Rolls price and can't pay half the price just because the Bentley goes for half.

If a Brett goes for $1,000 and a Yount goes for $500, then it's just as fair to say that the Brett goes for twice as much rather than that they're the same and one is either over or under priced. Because they're not the same. Try buying the $1,000 Brett for the half price of the Yount and you'll find out. Something is distinguishing the prices of those two bats. If it's not the player stats, it might be the popularity of one player over another.

I collect Mets stuff. If I collected the KC Royals, I'd be paying less than half price for comparable stuff. It doesn't help at all to point out that I should pay less for that Met Saberhagen jersey being offered because his Royals jerseys are cheaper and that he had his best years in KC.

Anyway, this is all philosophical. Because if you want the item, you gotta pay the price, even if it is over priced. The only other option would be not to buy.

skyking26
03-02-2009, 04:09 AM
I understand entirely. But by one view, it might not matter. If a Bentley and a Rolls are the same in your hypothetical, then why does the Rolls command twice the price? Even by your hypothetical facts, the guy that wants the Rolls has to pay the Rolls price and can't pay half the price just because the Bentley goes for half.

If a Brett goes for $1,000 and a Yount goes for $500, then it's just as fair to say that the Brett goes for twice as much rather than that they're the same and one is either over or under priced. Because they're not the same. Try buying the $1,000 Brett for the half price of the Yount and you'll find out. Something is distinguishing the prices of those two bats. If it's not the player stats, it might be the popularity of one player over another.

I collect Mets stuff. If I collected the KC Royals, I'd be paying less than half price for comparable stuff. It doesn't help at all to point out that I should pay less for that Met Saberhagen jersey being offered because his Royals jerseys are cheaper and that he had his best years in KC.

Anyway, this is all philosophical. Because if you want the item, you gotta pay the price, even if it is over priced. The only other option would be not to buy.
In 16 years Kingman played in SF, NYM, CHINL, OAK, (NYY/CAL/SD) all over that period. Anything associated with his Met or Yankee years is over the top in price. Last year many items became available. Sure, some of the SF jerseys went quick purely out of vintage interest, but the Mets/Yanks stuff always commands the interest and that is always reflected in price. While a vintage 71-74 Giants helmet could be had for sale $1200...........I know the Yankees helmet went close to $3K as did the Yanks helmet that was worn for 8 days.

I certainly unstand that NY thing. To be a NY collector means your pocket needs to be alot deeper. Kingman's never been a overly popular guy more or less, but people tend to remember those Met years. Oakland? Forget it. Nobody cares. I think Oakland jerseys are cool, but people in general could care less. McGwire played in STL and Oakland. Granted he did all the records in STL, but I'm sure if you removed that people would still remember those STL years, not the Oakland. As spotlight un-friendly as Kingman and McGwire both were, I'm sure they enjoyed the animinity(sp) of Oakland in trenchcoat and sunglasses.

Trublubrucru
03-02-2009, 09:55 AM
Just a note on some recent auctions this past week

94 McGwire A's road jersey $ 600
98 Mac Rawlings bat $ 400
01 Sosa Hr bat $ 350
89-93 Palmeiro bat $ 67

yet

92-95 Mattingly bat $850
2007 Pujols bat $1000

The steriods scandel is far from over, and players caught up in it will have big affects on their stuff. Overall in the hobby, the economy has had put more sellers out there, and the overpriced stuff will come down. The market will correct itself just like other hobbies and investments (coins,antiques,muscle cars). I have personally obtained 14 bats i've been looking for in just the last three months, some I have been looking for many years. I'm curious to see how the next year's economy will affect the overpricing in the hobby. Jeff

Birdbats
03-02-2009, 11:05 AM
Just a note on some recent auctions this past week

94 McGwire A's road jersey $ 600
98 Mac Rawlings bat $ 400
01 Sosa Hr bat $ 350
89-93 Palmeiro bat $ 67

yet

92-95 Mattingly bat $850
2007 Pujols bat $1000


Do you have links to these auctions? It could be those prices were realized because the items were questionable. I'd love to see them. Thanks.

suave1477
03-02-2009, 11:09 AM
Do you have links to these auctions? It could be those prices were realized because the items were questionable. I'd love to see them. Thanks.

I was actually thinking the same thing.

Can I also see those links?

suave1477@yahoo.com

suicide_squeeze
03-02-2009, 11:34 AM
Without having the old catalogs, I don't know how many legit gamers of Mac and Sosa were sold during 1998 and 1999, but I suspect there weren't many because it takes a little while for game-used items to filter into the hobby. I know a collector who says the Cubs retail store sold Sosa bats for $800 around that time; he bought 10 of them (and still has them).

I started archiving bat auction results in 2000, so I went back and took a look at auction prices from 2000-2003 (Mastro and Leland's), when prices were still high for both players.

I found four 1998 Sosa bats auctioned during that period. They sold from $949 to $1,254 and the average was $1,154.

I found six pre-1998 bats. They sold from $757 to $1,531 and the average was $978.

I found 16 post-1998 bats. Included among these was the bat used for HR #498 that was cut up on ESPN and examined for cork. It sold for $7,259. Also included was a documented HR bat, #63 from 1999 -- it sold for $3,342. Excluding these two bats, the highest price was $2,040 and the lowest was $643. The average for all 16 bats was $1,552; the average excluding the two "special" bats was $1,017.

Overall, the average price of all 26 bats was $1,358. Thirteen of those bats sold for less than $1,000, 13 sold for more. If you throw out the two "special" bats, the average price for 24 bats was $1,030.

Granted, auction values are influenced by many factors, such as use, condition, autographs, etc. I'm assuming these all were legit Sosa bats, which could be naive considering most McGwire bats sold in these auctions didn't demonstrate appropriate Mac characteristics. I also don't have any information on Sosa bats that were auctioned at Chicago-area charity events; those types of auctions always attract unusually high prices.

In the end, though, I think it's fair to say a collector could find a Sosa bat for $1,000 during those "peak" years when people were paying 3-4 times that much for legit Mac gamers.

Funny thing is......No matter how this whole steroid era thing plays out (who's career gets tarnished, what end result Bud "the GEEK" Selig seeks as proper recourse to the admitted or confessed cheaters/users, whether records are ultimately asterisked or removed from the books, etc.).....I still feel the '98 home run race will live in infamy as a very exciting re-invigorating time in baseball history. Add to that fact that both Mark McGwire AND Sammy Sosa were extremely likeable and popular players.....I just think their game-used items will always hold their value, and may even creep back up in time.

That said, here's my full diclosure:

I own only one Sammy Sosa bat. It was his blonde Louisville Slugger used to hit his career home run #536 (which tied him with the Mick on the All0Time home run list). It's signed and inscribed by him as such. Has the big bulbus taped knob......just a whole lot of desirable aspects to it.

I paid $6,000.00 for it. I have absolutely no regrets and I believe I didn't over-pay for it. It is likely Sammy hit his over-600 home runs without using PED's? IMHO, no. But he will forever be one of the two folk-lore participants in that magical 1998 season, however fraud-latent it was. It was still a part of history, and an amazingly fun time in baseball.

As a baseball purist, historian, and fan of the game and proponent in keeping it right, I realize I am over the line in hypocracy taking this stance. But somehow, the guys who followed these two, and used to "match-up" or in the case of Bonds, "better" them because he saw himself as better than they were, just stink the joint up. It then wasn't about the game anymore.....it was about how great they could make themselves look, and how much money and fame they could achieve. The ruins that came with it has led to the strong movement (at least in us baseball purists and fans) to clean up the game.

But the historic battle of 1998 will always have a positive aspect to it. It brought people back to the game.......as wrong as it may have been. So to me, as a baseball fan and collector, not owning a piece from one of the two participants is just missing out on a large part of the history of the game. And, I'm happy with the one piece of Sammy's I do own.

Trublubrucru
03-02-2009, 08:20 PM
Hey guys,

Those items were mostly from mastro auction ending Feb25 and 26. I skimmed through and posted prices from guys mentioned in the thread.

Jeff

Vintagedeputy
03-02-2009, 08:42 PM
I own only one Sammy Sosa bat......
I paid $6,000.00 for it.

May I just say sir, that you have one giant, nay..GIGANTIC set of stones. I dont think that I could ever bring myself to pay 6K for a bat unless it was Ruth or Gehrig or the like.

To each his own, as long as it makes you happy. :)

Vintagedeputy
03-02-2009, 08:50 PM
Yankwood-
Hope it's a joke on the Baines bats. He's actually on my want list... I'll take him or Raines off your hands. :p



I had Baines on my list for a while too. Found a gorgeous hammered one and bid and won it. They I found out that it was listed in error and had already been sold.

I did snag a Raines though....and for what I consider a ridiculously low price for a future HOF

Birdbats
03-02-2009, 09:51 PM
Those items were mostly from mastro auction ending Feb25 and 26. I skimmed through and posted prices from guys mentioned in the thread.

Thanks for pointing us in the right direction. That McGwire bat is no good. Legit bat, but almost certainly not used by Mark. That explains its low price. The Sosa bat is very nice.

skyking26
03-05-2009, 10:05 PM
I had lamented not long ago to some friends that I did not believe what I was personally witnessing in the hobby marketplace even remotely resembles a said recession. Again today on ebay I had my butt kicked by buyers whom presumably live at Fort Knox.

All that said, a friend once said to me, "this is a very small hobby." I get his point. Now and then like today I make a deal that is fair and is a nice addition to my collection. Thanks to those that have recently assisted. It's better dealing with those you know sometimes than competing against these clique guys and their deep wallets.

RK

Nathan
03-06-2009, 01:52 PM
Suave -

You hit the Nail on the Head - Look at 'Sid the Kid' Crosby in the NHL... he was so hyped (and he hasn't disappointed), but he and his Dad hatched a GREAT Rookie plan - NEW jersey EVERY game - and he and his Dad kept EVERY Jersey and Every stick and started their own 'memorabilia' business...

A lot of rookies and their agents are cashing in...

- Chris

I'm not sure where you're getting this information from. Joe Tomon (J&J Distributing) has a contract with the Penguins to get their game jersey sets, including a rookie year set 1 white that was photomatched to multiple games.

In addition, hockey sticks are made of a graphite/carbon fiber composite; breakage is much more common with hockey sticks than with baseball bats. No player in his right mind is going to relinquish a stick that has great feel to make a few bucks. Heck, Mike Green of Washington just broke the record for consecutive games with a goal by a defenseman and promptly told the Hockey Hall of Fame to sit on it when they requested his stick....he used the same one for all those games and kept raving about how it was the best he ever used.

JETEFAN
03-11-2009, 04:43 PM
good responses and i agree with most of them. interesting to see there's pretty much a consensus of who's undervalued. great underpriced examples of mcgriff (493 clean HRs!), winfield, and especially raines who spent his entire career underrated.

also completely agree with the overpriced examples of mattingly ($2k+ for a bat of a non-HOFer who didn't set any records?) and ripken. boggs, gwynn, and puckett (all HOF'ers, all 3000-hit members) were what mattingly was supposed to be had he not crapped out so early and yet mattingly's bats are worth twice what boggs', gwynns', and pucketts are worth. supply explains some of it but i don't see a lot of nice early-career boggs, gwynns, or winfields flying around. i don't even see a lot of nice early career mcgriffs around and his bats go for peanuts. who knew hitting 493 clean HRs would be worth so little.

while i agree that the HR has been devalued ever since bonds made a complete mockery of it and hit 73 (73! very subtle barry! he may as well have hit 120) but you'd think that'd place an even bigger premium on clean sluggers like griffey, mcgriff, and thomas and it hasn't really. ripken and brett were never really HR guys and their items go for more than sluggers like mcgriff and thomas. (ripken still confuses me. small-market team, sub-500 HRs, sub-.300 hitter, good supply of his bats floating around and i never quite understood the excitement behind a consecutive-game streak).

mcgwire also confuses me. at one point, sosa was very popular (had his own pepsi commercials!) yet his popularity completely died out. on the other hand, despite everyone believing that mcgwire juiced it from beginning to end, he's still got a large enough fan base to support these high prices? at this point, it's becoming apparent that mcgwire is not getting into the HOF. yet his values are still at HOF prices. every other big-name steroid star was kicked to the curb, except mcgwire. his bats may be in relative short supply but does that matter if the majority of his career has one huge asterisk? solid bonds gamers are in short supply and folks couldn't care less. jeff kranz took a bath when he unloaded his bonds items. yet mcgwire juiced all he wanted and it doesn't really seem to have affected his collectability. maybe fans don't care as much about steroids as they let on? maybe if you're a friendly, HR-hitting, elbow-basher you'll get a free pass?

it seems popularity plays a huge role. you can miss the HOF and juice it your entire career but if you somehow manage to remain popular, then your items will be worth more than your peers who made the HOF and didn't juice it. crazy. sounds like collectors might be better off looking at popularity than stats.

rudy.

Unless someone is only into this hobby for investment purposes only, records and how good of a player is way down on the totem pole as far as value. I'm pretty sure that everyone on this forum collects what they do because they like the player. Sure being good helps but player likability and popularity to me is the primary factor. The more the player is liked, the more people collect their stuff, the more people collect their stuff, the more scarce it becomes, the more scarce it becomes, the higher the price! Mattingly, though many feel overpriced is a perfect example, numbers very comparable to Puckett so he was a damn good player, gave you 100 % every time out and was the best player in the universe for a period of 3 or 4 years. bats are almost impossible to find cause everyone wants one, thus the price....simple, I'll take 10 more bats please...." Bottom line, Donnie is better liked than probably most players mentioned on this thread solely for their numbers!!! My humble opinion..

George

byergo
03-12-2009, 02:44 PM
Agree 100% about Mattingly. I don't like the Yankees, but Donnie Baseball was one of my favorite players. You just can't hardly be a baseball fan who followed the game back then and not like Don Mattingly and appreciate the way he played the game. Anyone would be lucky to own a Mattingly gamer.