Player provenance down the tubes?

[kingjammy24]

years ago, before this steroid mess, player provenance was usually taken as gospel. if johnny ballplayer said he used a jersey/glove/bat, then what more could you ask for!

i'm curious if collectors are now going to evaluate player provenance on a case-by-case basis given the amount of bold-faced liars that many players have shown themselves to be. i mean, if tejada apparently has no issues with lying to congress and arod has no issues lying on national tv, then i imagine they wouldn't think twice when it comes to game-used items. take what has to be among the worst of them: arod:

"For the record, have you ever used steroids, human growth hormone or any other performance-enhancing substance?" Couric asked.

"No," Rodriguez replied.

Asked if he had ever been tempted to use any of those things, Rodriguez told Couric, "No."

at least mcgwire didn't outright lie. he simply said he didn't want to talk about it. sosa "no habla englais". palmeiro and tejada were outright liars. personally, i think you can toss bonds and clemens in there as well.

arod, palmeiro, tejada, bonds, and clemens have moved a lot of memorablia over the past 10 years. a lot of stuff directly from them. my opinion is if a player is shown to be an outright, bold-faced liar on serious issues, then his provenance can't be relied upon. i'm not talking about white lies here; i'm talking about having the cojones to lie to congress, lie on national tv, lie under oath, lie to law enforcement, etc. a letter on a piece from bonds or clemens or arod doesn't mean much anymore.

thoughts? agree? disagree? would you still put faith in a letter from bonds/clemens/tejada/arod/palmeiro?

rudy.

[mfsquirrelmaster]

totally agree. There was a post a little will back talking about Arod putting the same home run inscription on two different lightly used bats.

[staindsox]

Those manufactured COAs are a joke. How can you trust someone who's schelping a guy's socks, belt, and jock strap? It would have to be a hand written letter from the player and not a pre-printed form letter to make me feel any better about the authenticity.

[aeneas01]

how many collectors get items directly from a player these days? if i'm correct in assuming that not many, then i would think that provenance is the same leap of faith it has always been in that, typically, a middleman is usually involved who tells the collector that the game used item came directly from the player. i think a scarier question is which is easier for a collector to swallow: a) a player that lies about steroid use wouldn't lie about his game used equipment or b) a player that knows full well the money to be had in game used items wouldn't lie about his game used equipment.

...

[allstarsplus]

Rudy - Player provenance is not down the tubes if you work with athletes with character and honesty and integrity.

I had a sitdown recently with a player. He brought all of his equipment that he kept from the year and I was going to buy it all.

Great stuff. I came across a bat of his that didn't have the same characteristics as the others and I asked him about that particular bat. He picked it up and said, yah the clubhouse guy must have stuck it in my bag and this was used by another player. He tossed it aside.

All was good and made me feel confident in the items that were coming direct from the player.

After the meeting, I spent time style matching all the items. After doing my follow-up analysis, I felt absolutely 100% confident in the provenance as I was able to photomatch a few items and stylematch all of the items. A pair of cleats I photomatched to a key game and a fellow forum member photomatched a bat and cleats to a HR game.

My advice is, even if it comes straight from the player you still should do your homework.

[suicide_squeeze]

years ago, before this steroid mess, player provenance was usually taken as gospel. if johnny ballplayer said he used a jersey/glove/bat, then what more could you ask for!

i'm curious if collectors are now going to evaluate player provenance on a case-by-case basis given the amount of bold-faced liars that many players have shown themselves to be. i mean, if tejada apparently has no issues with lying to congress and arod has no issues lying on national tv, then i imagine they wouldn't think twice when it comes to game-used items. take what has to be among the worst of them: arod:

"For the record, have you ever used steroids, human growth hormone or any other performance-enhancing substance?" Couric asked.

"No," Rodriguez replied.

Asked if he had ever been tempted to use any of those things, Rodriguez told Couric, "No."

at least mcgwire didn't outright lie. he simply said he didn't want to talk about it. sosa "no habla englais". palmeiro and tejada were outright liars. personally, i think you can toss bonds and clemens in there as well.

arod, palmeiro, tejada, bonds, and clemens have moved a lot of memorablia over the past 10 years. a lot of stuff directly from them. my opinion is if a player is shown to be an outright, bold-faced liar on serious issues, then his provenance can't be relied upon. i'm not talking about white lies here; i'm talking about having the cojones to lie to congress, lie on national tv, lie under oath, lie to law enforcement, etc. a letter on a piece from bonds or clemens or arod doesn't mean much anymore.

thoughts? agree? disagree? would you still put faith in a letter from bonds/clemens/tejada/arod/palmeiro?

rudy.

rudy,

I would still believe them.

But I'd wash my hands every time after handling that letter, because I wouldn't want to wake up with a Jay Leno chin, and not be able to put my shoes on.

Regards,

Steve