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aeneas01
01-23-2009, 07:37 AM
like mastros' last auction, hunt will be offering a huge number of game used vintage football helmets in their upcoming "nfl experience" auction slated for saturday, jan 31st (super bowl eve). and like mastro's last auction, hunt has chosen a "live" auction format as well. will the super bowl crowds in tampa, where the live auction will be held, drive up auction activity? will super bowl "high rollers" drive up hammer prices? time will tell and it should be interesting. whatever the case, i can't imagine that the activity could possibly be less than the action at mastro's last live auction.

for the past two weeks i've been playing phone tag with hunt, trying to get questions about the helmets answered as well as additional photos. i sent an itemized list requesting specific information regarding helmet date codes, interior markings, etc. and i also requested photos of certain areas of each helmet. at the eleventh hour, right before hunt packed up the lots for the trip to tampa, cheryl goyda of hunt managed to email two additional photos of each helmet i was interested in. unfortunately i never did get answers to my questions nor did i receive the specific photos i had requested. frankly i can't believe this sort of information, including photos, was not prepared in advance in anticipation of such inquiries - especially considering the high value of many of these items.

i will say, however, that every person i spoke with at hunt, including cheryl goyda, was nothing but extremely courteous and professional. further, phone calls were returned and so were emails. the fact that i did not receive answers to my many questions had more to do with missing each other than anything else imo. however, i did put my questions in writing, in an email that hunt received, and therefore believe that someone at hunt should have been able to get back to me with answers via email. but it never happened.

anyway, here are some of my thoughts regarding a few of the helmets that will be featured - there are some real gems. also, cheryl goda reminded me that the additional photos she emailed were property of hunt and therefore could not be shared, so i won't. but she also said that she would be more than happy to answer any questions about lots from tampa and can be reached at 610-524-0822.

norm van brocklin:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=87&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

i have no idea why hunt chose to prominently feature a unitas helmet in their advertising campaign when they had their hands on this treasure - i mean this thing is as good as it gets! authentic rams helmets from this era are just not around, in fact i would say that this is easily one of the rarest nfl helmets to have ever hit the auction blocks. the only thing that would trump this beautiful lid would a a transparent rt2 rams helmet. this particular helmet is an early rk4 6-point suspension helmet fitted with factory anti-concussion padding and ultra-rare, half-pie, snap-in leather jaw pads. van brocklin (1949-1957 with the rams), wore an rt2 transparent helmet during most of his years with the rams, from his rookie year through at least 1955, possibly 1956. as such, this helmet would be from vb's last two years with the rams, or perhaps even from just his last year. what is certain is vb wore an rk4 during his final season with the rams. given that the rk4 helmet was introduced in 1954, it would have still been a pretty new riddell model in '56 and '57. did this particular rk4 rams helmet ever belong to vb, was it ever worn by vb? it appears that the provenance is what you would want it to be - but we all know how that goes sometimes. whatever the case another thing is for certain - this is an ultra rare, authentic rams helmet from yesteryear. i would recommend that anyone interested in this lid contact cheryl goyda and ask her to remove the concussion padding, which is very easy to do without causing harm to the helmet or padding, to see if there exists any ink-stamped date information on the inside of the helmet shell.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_vb1.jpg

some nice shots of vb in action - photo in upper left corner shows vb wearing an rk4 helmet (the type of helmet up for auction) and is from the '56 or '57 season, the other photos show vb wearing his transparent rt2 helmet. although the rt2 and rk4 are very similar, it's usually pretty easy to tell the difference because rt2 helmets tend to show "dimpling" in the rivet areas of the helmet. this is caused by the interior cotton suspension webbing shrinking over time, due to becoming wet, which pulled the soft rt2 plastic (tenite) inward at the rivet points. the rk4 helmets were made from a much sturdier plastic which eliminated this problem. also, as the rams moved from rt2 helmets to rk4 helmets, the shape of the horns changed - the horn tips became less exaggerated...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_vb2.jpg


johnny unitas:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=168&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

yet another unitas "gamer", the fifth (i repeat, the fifth) unitas "gamer" to have hit the blocks in the last year and a half. incredible. and yet they continue to sell - for very big bucks. again, incredible. that's the bad news, the good news is that the last two entries (including this one) are better representations than the others. nonetheless, this offering has problems as well and i don't think it's the real deal. but guess what? who cares? it's sure to fetch at least $20k anyway. this particular helmet is a riddell "kra-lite-8" (hunt got the lot description wrong calling it an "88") which allows us to date its birthday to 1970, the only year riddell used this designation. consequently we can rule out the 14 previous years unitas played for the colts (1956-1969) and just concentrate on the last 3 (1970-1972). looking at the many photos and film frames of unitas from 1970-1972, none come up showing him wearing a tk helmet with the rubber nose snubber in place, it had been removed. in fact when unitas packed his bags for san diego, he conitnued to sport a tk without the rubber nose snubber. yet this latest offering shows the snubber perfectly intact.

the upper left photo shows the "unitas" helmet being offered by hunt, the upper right photo shows unitas's hof display, and the other photos show unitas from 1970-1972. check out the tear in the stripe i've circled - it appears that the hof has the last helmet unitas wore during his final years with the colts, not hunt.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_unitas.jpg


vintage gamers:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=184&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=174&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=170&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=187&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

four very, very nice vintage game used helmets. particulary special are the steelers and rams rk2 helmets.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_mix3.jpg


joe montana:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=219&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

another autographed montana "gamer" with lots of problems. if anyone is interested in bidding on this item i would call cheryl and ask for the date code (found below the left ear hole, inside the helmet or behind the rear neck pad). but even if the date code lined up, i would still be very doubtful. for one, montana sported a "red dot" (standard) opo facemask, the facemask in the auction is a "green dot" opo facemask (large). further, montana also sported a red dot helmet, the helmet in the auction is a green dot. in short, montana wore a smaller lid and facemask.

upper left photo is the "montana" lid offered by hunt. i've circled the size "dots" (facemasks & helmet). i've also included a couple of other interesting photos: the photo at the bottom left shows montana leaving the pro bowl game with a seattle seahawks helmet, which he more than likely traded for his helmet. the photo at the bottom right is from montana's rookie year when he sported a wilson f2002, the same type of helmet he wore at notre dame. that was the only year montana wore a wilson with the niners.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_montana.jpg


dwight clark:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=218&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

this helmet was offered at b&e collectibles website and there's a lot to like about it, clark definitely wore an early af2 as presented. but, oddly, clark sported an out-of-date wildcat bumper with the riddell logo stenciled in uppercase, not the ubiquitous riddell logo that appears in the auction. what's so strange about this clark oddity is that the stenciled wildcat bumper had pretty much run its course by the mid '70s yet he sported it through 1983! by the mid '80s clark had adopted the "49ers" bumper decal that covered the riddell logo and had switched facemasks, so even if the typical riddell logo (as pictured in the auction) lurked below the "49ers" decal, the auction facemask would still be incorrect. hmm...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_clark.jpg


a couple of nice eagles gamers:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=182&lot_qual=a&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=183&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

two great looking eagles gamers circa 1969-1973. not sure why, but this has always been my favorite eagles helmet scheme - probably because the wings show so well against the white shell. the helmet on the right is attributed to tim rossovich and, consistent with what rossovich wore during that period, the auction helmet is an early h9 microfit. is it tr's lid? if so, it doesn't match the game photo of tr shown below. the helmet on the left is a classic tk2 attributed al coleman (not pictured). both great looking authentic lids imo that could have very well belonged to the players mentioned.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_eagles.jpg


a few more lids:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=33&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=32&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=37&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=149&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

a great looking 4-year giants lid, a wd1, which the giants sported from 1976-1979 (the hunt lost description incorrectly describes it as a circa '80s lid), a nice chiefs gladiator helmet, although it's missing its padding, which sports an interesting, custom white dungard dg104 facemask, a cowboys lid and another autographed "payton gamer" - apparently any navy wilson with a "c" on it, autographed payton, is automatically a payton "gamer"

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_mix1.jpg


some more:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=191&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=36&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=35&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=34&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

the cowboys helmet is attributed to laidlaw and has been floated on ebay by ebayer dalcowbill for what seems like forever. this helmet strikes me as an authentic laidlaw gamer especially given that he did wear this unique, rare model (manufactured by a long since defunct texas company named "protective products". they weren't around for very long but they did produce great, heavily padded helmets. it seems that most of their helmets were destined for texas college teams but the cowboys, along with at least a couple of other nfl teams (chiefs, cards) were known to use them as well.) but dalcowbill has also floated some absolute bush helmets including a pearson "gamer" and a staubach "gamer".

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_mix2.jpg


leather helmets:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=58&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

hunt always seems to offer a very nice selection of leather helmets and this auction is no exception. but for whatever reason leather helmets have never seemed to be as popular as their vintage plastic counterparts - could it be that most football fans like the helmet logos that leather helmets typically lack? who knows - but i really dig leather football helmets and am fortunate enough to have a few gems in my collection. fwiw it appears that all of the leather helmets offered at hunt have been treated - some like this look but i don't, i prefer their natural state. for those interested in leather football helmets i highly recommend ebay - oddly, these ancient relics aren't as rare as one might think and they abound on ebay. you can often pick up a real gem on ebay at a very reasonable price - that is unless you find yourself competing against mears for the lid. mears actively buys leather helmets on ebay (at least they used to) and relists them at their site at quite a markup - nothing wrong with this of course, but one could do much better on ebay, price-wise. in fact i think a few of the hunt helmets came from mears - i didn't take a close look but i know that mears definitely had at least one of these lids listed at their site. another great thing to look for are bulk lots - for whatever reason some auction houses like to bundle quite a few leather helmets together in a single lot and you can end getting them for a steal. keep the one or two you like and flip the others on ebay - you will pay for yours and most likely even turn a profit! however, i will say, bulk lots have become less common.

if you do decide to venture into leather football helmets i would recommend that you do a little homework tho because the number of styles and defunct manufacturers of leather helmets is about as limitless as the stars! and some styles from some manufacturers aren't worth squat! for example, here are some manufacturer names and they all have a line of styles: goldsmith, brine, draper-maynard, spaulding, rawlings, wilson, macgregor, nokona, wright & ditson, reach, stall & bean, ken-wel, low & campbell. i have about 5,000+ photos of leather helmets in my photo database, many with selling prices, so if you come across one that grabs you let me know and i'll give you an idea of its value.

here are a few of the leather helmets listed at hunt. "a" is an "executioner" style lid and probably the rarest and most desirable of all leather football helmets. hunt has listed an estimated value of $10k-$15k for this lid, which has been treated, but they can be had in the $6k range. if you see one on ebay you have to jump on it, you have to contact the seller and make him an offer, because someone else will!! most of these that hit ebay are "ended early". of course the seller is rarely offered close to what they're worth - i know because twice i've contacted ebayers that ended their auctions early for these things and told them that if they accepted less than "x" then they got robbed. one guy immediately relisted his (he had found it at a garage sale) and it sold for $6,500, he was blown away. the other guy decided to contact dealers armed with his new information - neither guy was offered more than $500 and neither guy knew what they had!

"b" is a "nose mask" and typically fetches around $500 at auction and, again oddly, they are not as rare as one might suspect. hunt has estimated the value of theirs at $1,500-$2,500 - on the very high side but it comes with the original box. collectors love things that come with their original box - regardless of how beat up the box is! "c" is a very nice little helmet that has made the rounds, again and again. mears owned this one for a bit, had it listed at their site - prior to this it made the rounds at the auction houses. this 8-spoke style was hugely popular in the '40s and just about every manufacturer had their own version with the wilson d236 probably being the most popular. fwiw most leather helmets that are dyed a color, whether it's the entire helmet or just a section such as the spokes, tend to fetch considerably higher prices.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_leather.jpg

speaking of executioner style helmets, here are a few that sold at auction along with their selling prices. i've also included a few other interesting photos...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_exec.jpg

...

John in KY
01-23-2009, 09:56 AM
a few more lids:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=33&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=37&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

a great looking 4-year giants lid, a wd1, which the giants sported from 1976-1979 (the hunt lost description incorrectly describes it as a circa '80s lid), a nice chiefs gladiator helmet, although it's missing its padding, which sports an interesting, custom white dungard dg104 facemask, a cowboys lid and another autographed "payton gamer" - apparently any navy wilson with a "c" on it, autographed payton, is automatically a payton "gamer"

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/hunt_mix1.jpg


some more:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=34&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm


...
aeneas01,

I have a couple of questions on these as I was looking through the Hunt auction; I'm glad you raised brought this up.

The Giants looks like a train wreck to me - that 1976-1979 era should have a white facemask, not a grey (they switched to white with the "Disco NY" helmets of 1975). Also, it couldn't be a WD-1; Riddell didn't make them until 1982 - 3 years past the removal of the white stripes on the Giants' helmet. It appears that helmet also has a modern-style rear bumper - which I don't think appeared until later in the 1980s. That could have been added, but the mask issue still makes me wonder.

The Cowboys lid is interesting from the standpoint that it's an '80s helmet (again, look at the rear snubber) with a 60's-style round-bottom NPO mask.

Same issue with the Packers helmet - an '80s helmet with a 70s mask. By that point the mask should have been green and should be a more modern style.

Any thoughts on these? The discussion of the others is spot-on; the Van Brocklin is the real gem here, and the Eagles HA-9 is another cool find.

rose14
01-23-2009, 11:37 AM
Robert, I think any auction house that is selling any form of football helmet should consider using your services. Your research on the VB helmet might get them a few more bids.

Todd

gwh11
01-23-2009, 12:55 PM
Robert,
Once again, thanks for your thoughtful analysis.
Guy

reed1216
01-23-2009, 02:53 PM
Robert- I always look forward to hearing your thoughts on helmets that are offered for sale. Although I don't collect them, I find it amazing how many of these helmets on the market have issues. Thank you for your thoughtful comments on these!!

cjw
01-23-2009, 03:28 PM
Great info...thanks for the insight!

tom1315
01-23-2009, 08:32 PM
Robert, thank you for this incredible analysis and summary of findings. The depth of your discussion aids us novice "lid collectors" to be careful and do our homework.

Thanks again! Tom

buc
01-23-2009, 09:30 PM
Very nice work, but the Payton is not being offered as a gamer. The wear they are talking about is just that is shows scratches and dings, not game use wear.

princip
01-24-2009, 11:43 AM
"a couple of other interesting photos: the photo at the bottom left shows montana leaving the pro bowl game with a seattle seahawks helmet, which he more than likely traded for his helmet."

My guess is it's Dave Krieg's lid from the 1989 Pro Bowl? However, could be Largent's from the 1987 Pro Bowl? I'd have a better guess if I could see the mask.

princip
01-24-2009, 11:46 AM
Looking closer, I'd say it's Steve Largent's helmet from the 1987 Pro Bowl, that Montana's holding, because it looks to be a BD-9 facemask.

aeneas01
01-26-2009, 11:12 AM
aeneas01,

I have a couple of questions on these as I was looking through the Hunt auction; I'm glad you raised brought this up.

The Giants looks like a train wreck to me - that 1976-1979 era should have a white facemask, not a grey (they switched to white with the "Disco NY" helmets of 1975). Also, it couldn't be a WD-1; Riddell didn't make them until 1982 - 3 years past the removal of the white stripes on the Giants' helmet. It appears that helmet also has a modern-style rear bumper - which I don't think appeared until later in the 1980s. That could have been added, but the mask issue still makes me wonder.

The Cowboys lid is interesting from the standpoint that it's an '80s helmet (again, look at the rear snubber) with a 60's-style round-bottom NPO mask.

Same issue with the Packers helmet - an '80s helmet with a 70s mask. By that point the mask should have been green and should be a more modern style.

Any thoughts on these? The discussion of the others is spot-on; the Van Brocklin is the real gem here, and the Eagles HA-9 is another cool find.

thanks for bringing up those lids kentucky - my relative lack of interest in riddell cell helmets probably explains my rather hasty opinions of those particular lids! microfits, m155's and an occasional pac3 are about as excited as i get about riddell non-suspension helmets. anyway you are absolutely right - wd1 lids didn't hit the scene until the the early 80s and, as such, an authentic giants wd1 helmet would have never seem such a logo/stripe scheme given this design had run its course by 1979.

further, nape snubbers didn't hit the scene until the mid 80s and didn't really start taking hold until the late 80s. and, of course, riddell's "new and improved" foam forehead padding, housed in a wildcat pocket, didn't hit the scene until about '82 or '83 either.

consequently i went back and took a closer look at some of the riddell "cell" helmets listed at hunt, specifically the packers, cowboys, giants and 49ers helmets, and wasn't particularly excited about what i found. first, the giants and packers helmets are both wd1 lids, no doubt about it. i suspect the 49ers and cowboys helmets are as well but i don't have photos of their interiors.

further, on both the packers and giants helmets, the rear screw used to hold the bottom cell segments in place, as typical with pac3 and wd1 helmets, has also been used to also hold the nape snubber in place, i.e. the screw has been punched through the nape snubber! not only do these two helmets have this oddity in common, but both "retain their original facemasks" - non-period xl jop's!

here's a look at the the four helmets i mentioned - all have the exact same nape snubber, all are fitted with the exact same jaw pads and it appears that all are fitted with the same warning and size decals. this leads me to believe that these helmets are nothing more than the store model wd1 helmets with mid 80s date stamps that riddell offered some time ago, the type that usually came with usfl facemasks. this seems even more likely given they all came from the same consignor, don biernat - chicago inner city sports hall of fame museum. doesn't strike me as anything nefarious - just an honest mistake...

a note about the nape snubbers: as you probably know, riddell has rolled out a surprisingly large number of different types of nape snubbers over the years - not only has the inside portion of the snubber varied considerably given it has needed to fit different padding schemes, but the outside portion (width/height) and lip (transition section from interior to exterior) have varied enormously as well. the nape snubber found on these four particular helmets, 3-hole lip section, was short-lived and easily the least common in circulation. what are the odds that all of these helmets would happen to have the same, uncommon snubber? very slim imo - yet they do.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/WD.jpg



Very nice work, but the Payton is not being offered as a gamer. The wear they are talking about is just that is shows scratches and dings, not game use wear.

glad you mentioned this buc because, to tell you the truth, i originally intended to write that it was refreshing to come across a navy wilson helmet with payton's sig that wasn't attributed to payton. but right before i posted i re-read the lot description and felt that it did indeed imply that it "could" have been worn by payton i.e, a chicago bears' helmet with wear signed by payton. further, i didn't think hunt went out of their way to clearly state or to make perfectly clear that it wasn't payton's game used helmet. but i have since re-read the lot description and i have to agree with you - hunt is not claiming that this helmet is a payton gamer.


Looking closer, I'd say it's Steve Largent's helmet from the 1987 Pro Bowl, that Montana's holding, because it looks to be a BD-9 facemask.

yes, it was largent's.... and to the rest of the guu gang, glad you enjoyed the (long) read!

....

aeneas01
01-30-2009, 04:42 AM
in keeping with the "positive experiences with auction houses" theme (per the mears - wow! thread), i just wanted to let the forum know that dave hunt dropped me an email regarding my post. i have to say i'm impressed with how hunt handled my inquiries - promptly and professionally. phone calls were always returned and emails always received a reply. unfortunately i was not able to get all of my questions answered, but it was certainly not due to being stonewalled. anyway here's his email, in full, in which he asked me fair questions about my frank post - i found his email to be very professional and sincere...

=============================

----- Original Message -----
From: David Hunt
To: livie@horizoncable.com

Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 06:40
Subject: Forum posting


Robert,
I wanted to thank you for your interest in our current NFL auction. I was impressed by several of your observations and opinions and quite frankly am always interested in learning more about the fields that we all enjoy. I did want to take a minute to point out a few things:

-With regard to your rendered opinion on the Unitas helmet, certainly several points of reference that you make which are of note and certainly are worth sharing for any interested parties. That said, I am curious as to your thoughts as to offering a fairly firm opinion (either positive of negative) without personally inspecting an object of this significance. It is obviously a personal preference but in my business career I will never render a full and definitive opinion unless I have inspected the piece in person. Again, just curious as while photos and information are very useful I truly believe that a formal and definitive opinion is not able to be rendered without such inspection.

- Regarding the “Payton Gamer”. As already referenced by another Forum member, we never represented this helmet as being anything other then a signed helmet. Not a big deal but why would you list this as a problem with us when it was so clearly represented as simply a signed helmet?

Again, I sincerely do appreciate your interest in our auction, and in general, helping to educate buyers. It is something that everyone can benefit from if offered for the right reasons and I do believe that you are in fact attempting to do as much. Please do not ever hesitate to contact me directly if you have any questions about any items within our auctions.

Best Regards,
David

David Hunt
Hunt Auctions, Inc.
256 Welsh Pool Rd.
Exton, PA 19341

=============================

fwiw in my response to dave's email i told him that i felt it was extremely important to physically inspect items but that there were instances in which a physical examintaion would serve no purpose given it would not change fundamental issues with an item. i used the namath helmet for example - there was no need to physically inspect that helmet to know it wasn't namath's sb3 helmet. i also used the $50k untas helmet sold by hunt some time ago as another example - it was what it was, a macgregor which unitas did not wear, and physically inspecting it would not change this fact.

as far as the payton helmet is concerned, i told dave that in retrospect i agreed with him and guu member "buc's" opinion that hunt did not state that the listed helmet was a payton gamer. i also told dave that i re-posted to the forum accordingly.

....

helmets
01-31-2009, 09:48 PM
johnny unitas:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=36&lot_num=168&lot_qual=&url_referer=view_lots_items_list.cfm

yet another unitas "gamer", the fifth (i repeat, the fifth) unitas "gamer" to have hit the blocks in the last year and a half. incredible. and yet they continue to sell - for very big bucks. again, incredible. that's the bad news, the good news is that the last two entries (including this one) are better representations than the others. nonetheless, this offering has problems as well and i don't think it's the real deal. but guess what? who cares? it's sure to fetch at least $20k anyway.
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Wrong Robert...it went for $24K + the auction fees...

joelsabi
01-31-2009, 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeneas01 View Post
johnny unitas:
http://www.huntauctions.com/online/i...items_list.cfm

yet another unitas "gamer", the fifth (i repeat, the fifth) unitas "gamer" to have hit the blocks in the last year and a half. incredible. and yet they continue to sell - for very big bucks. again, incredible. that's the bad news, the good news is that the last two entries (including this one) are better representations than the others. nonetheless, this offering has problems as well and i don't think it's the real deal. but guess what? who cares? it's sure to fetch at least $20k anyway.
...


Wrong Robert...it went for $24K + the auction fees...

robert said at least $20K so he is right. nice analysis robert.

aeneas01
02-02-2009, 10:18 AM
robert said at least $20K so he is right. nice analysis robert.

lampson won't use computers, "helmets" won't give up his abacus, is it any wonder why there's so much chaos in the world of game-used helmet collecting today? :D ;)

not only does hunt's latest unitas offering represent the 5th different unitas "gamer" to have hit the auction blocks in the last year and a half, but it also represents the 5th different make and model! who knew that unitas liked to sport so many different helmets made by so many different helmet manufacturers during his career? what type of unitas helmet will surface next? a maxpro? a wilson? a kelley? how about a bike? nothing would surprise me now....

so for those counting at home, here are the many different unitas "gamers" that have collectivley fetched a cool $120,000 in the last year and a half:

macgregor - $50,000
rawlings - $7,000
trojan - $10,000
riddell rk - $25,000
riddell tk - $27,000

good grief.

i'm hoping hunt will update their auction results - from what i understand, several of the items currently showing "dns" (did not sell) actually did sell. i'm particularly interested in knowing what the van brocklin went for. some real steals tho - the steelers rk gamer went for only $450 or so. the good looking bolts tk only fetched $500. the two eagles lids fetched solid prices imo. the leather "executioner" lid went for closer to what i felt it would bring (mentioned earlier in the post) than the $10k-$15k estimate it was given. can't believe someone dropped $4,500 plus fees on that montana "gamer".

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kingjammy24
02-02-2009, 11:19 AM
robert

i wonder if i'm missing something here. are you saying you informed david hunt himself of the serious issues with the namath helmet, he acknowledged receipt of your info, and not only did they go ahead with it but they didn't even amend the description?

david hunt said that "..With regard to your rendered opinion on the Unitas helmet, certainly several points of reference that you make which are of note and certainly are worth sharing for any interested parties." so if the information is certainly worth sharing for any interested parties, why didn't they update the description..you know..to share the information with any interested parties?

as for mr.hunt's question regarding "..offering a fairly firm opinion (either positive of negative) without personally inspecting an object of this significance. It is obviously a personal preference but in my business career I will never render a full and definitive opinion unless I have inspected the piece in person. Again, just curious as while photos and information are very useful I truly believe that a formal and definitive opinion is not able to be rendered without such inspection."

an auction house could use this line of reasoning for every single item out there. oh what's that? you're running a size 40 clemens jersey, with a #88 on the back, and has the nob spelt "klemenz"? well, i'd need to see that in person. information and photos are great but if you saw this piece of garbage in person, it might possibly be legit. is that it? it's a cop-out to be able to run any piece of garbage under the sun because anyone could always say "well you haven't seen it in person". wrong tagging, wrong font, wrong size, wrong style, wrong patch? well you haven't seen it in person! i'm surprised lou hasn't adopted that policy. seems easier than devising his colorful stories.

robert, i, and i'd think any person with a modicum of common sense, would concur fully with your answer; sometimes a piece is so clearly and seriously flawed you don't need to see the thing in person. heritage removed their namath superbowl helmet without you physically inspecting it. over the past few years, many auction houses have removed items on the information and photos provided by this forum. what nonsense.

rudy.

helmets
02-02-2009, 04:22 PM
"helmets" won't give up his abacus, is it any wonder why there's so much chaos in the world of game-used helmet collecting today? :D ;)
...

Not only did I not know how to spell it, I don't know how to use it either. Is that the thing with all of the beads on it? I picked one up once, but I didn't know if was for counting. I was just ripping on you for once again being so accurate.

Yes, I dropped out on the 2 Eagles lids, and also on the Rob Johnson helmet - even though the Rob Johnson shows a DNS.

aeneas01
02-04-2009, 08:01 AM
robert, i, and i'd think any person with a modicum of common sense, would concur fully with your answer; sometimes a piece is so clearly and seriously flawed you don't need to see the thing in person. heritage removed their namath superbowl helmet without you physically inspecting it. over the past few years, many auction houses have removed items on the information and photos provided by this forum. what nonsense.

rudy.

yeah, to claim (or imply) that it's impossible to render an educated opinion on an item without first inspecting it physically is quite a reach. i came across a bunk michigan "gamer" listed by hunt last year and, after i contacted hunt about the helmet's problems, it was yanked - i didn't need to physically handle that helmet to know it was bunk nor did hunt ask me how i could possibly render such an opinion on that helmet without first checking it out in person. so, clearly, hunt knows that physically handling an item isn't always necessary. but the stakes were a little higher with the unitas helmet i suppose...


Not only did I not know how to spell it, I don't know how to use it either. Is that the thing with all of the beads on it? I picked one up once, but I didn't know if was for counting. I was just ripping on you for once again being so accurate.

i knew you were just having some fun with me! btw you scored some nice "lids" at good prices. as i told another forum member that recently emailed me, who also won a lid at the hunt auction, just about any of those helmets that were picked up in $150-$400 range could be flipped on ebay for a decent profit imo.

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helmets
02-04-2009, 12:34 PM
btw you scored some nice "lids" at good prices. as i told another forum member that recently emailed me, who also won a lid at the hunt auction,
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A "lid" is something on a jar, or what my wife tells me to put down after I use the toilet...

cndart
02-04-2009, 03:39 PM
Robert, PM sent.

aeneas01
02-04-2009, 06:25 PM
A "lid" is something on a jar, or what my wife tells me to put down after I use the toilet...

and something that was described as 2-4 fingers back in the day....

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aeneas01
02-04-2009, 07:10 PM
Robert, PM sent.

i tried to reply to your pm but you have your pm feature disabled - or it's not working. pm me with your email address...

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cndart
02-10-2009, 05:38 PM
PM replied. thanks.


i tried to reply to your pm but you have your pm feature disabled - or it's not working. pm me with your email address...

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