Are baseball salaries too high?

[cjclong]

All of us are familiar with the fact that the top baseball salaries now run from around $15 million to around $25 million a year. When I first started following baseball in the early 60's Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays were the two top players at $100,000 a year. And they were the top player in the game at the time destined for the Hall of Fame. Most fans did not complain about Mantle or Mays making that money or Babe Ruth earlier making $80,000. I don't know what Mantle or Mays salary would equal in today's money, but I don't believe it would be what the top salaries are today. Also, totally mediocre players and players having terrible years like Andrew Jones are making millions of dollars. We think of someone who wins a $4 million lottery as being very lucky while players with poor or average statistics are making that much and more every year. And it seems even worse in today's economy. I know we live in a capitalistic society and I think most people accept that people with special talents will always be paid more than firemen, policemen, teachers and others who are actually necessary for society to function. And I know that no one puts a gun to the heads of baseball executives to make them pay those salaries. I don't think most fans would have a problem with the top players making $10 million or some more a year. If salaries were reduced their could be some reduction in ticket prices, even if a small amount. I don't think most of us object to talented players being well paid, its the excessive amounts that bother us. What do the rest of you think?

[shoremen44]

I don't know if anyone would say that they aren't too high.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the ticket prices piece. While I dont even come close to the ARods of the world I make a very good living, and to take my wife and two boys to a game is rediculous.

The reason that the players of the bygone era are so loved even to this day is, 1) they were average guys who lived in the neighborhood, and 2) everyone could afford to go see a game and see them play.

I take the new Yankee stadium as the perfect example. Their ticket prices are going to be so high, that only corporations or the ultra rich can afford season tickets... I for one hope they play to empty seats.

[TFig27]

I don't know if anyone would say that they aren't too high.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the ticket prices piece. While I dont even come close to the ARods of the world I make a very good living, and to take my wife and two boys to a game is rediculous.

The reason that the players of the bygone era are so loved even to this day is, 1) they were average guys who lived in the neighborhood, and 2) everyone could afford to go see a game and see them play.

I take the new Yankee stadium as the perfect example. Their ticket prices are going to be so high, that only corporations or the ultra rich can afford season tickets... I for one hope they play to empty seats.

I was able to get season tickets for next year for $20 a ticket.

[shoremen44]

I stand corrected...

http://newyork.yankees.mlb.com/nyy/ticketing/season_plans.jsp?content=full

if you want to sit in the corners of the upperdeck $20... or the grandstand just $12...

I did find it funny that they dont list prices on the season ticket locator for the stuff behind home plate or the lowest level... you have to call to get those prices

[BULBUS]

No question, salaries are rediculous! Like you said, it comes down to ticket prices. As long as we the fans are paying, the owners can afford to give the players these salaries.

As far as the new Yankee Stadium, a friend of mine has the Sunday plan and he upgraded his seat and pays 35 a ticket whereas last year he paid 25. Not too bad. That being said, I used to go to at least 10-15 games a year in the 90's and now with the cost of everything (tickets, food, and PARKING:eek: ), I go to about 1 maybe 2 games a year.

[yanks12025]

Do you guys know when they are taking deposits for the 41 game package.

[joelsabi]

The reason that the players of the bygone era are so loved even to this day is, 1) they were average guys who lived in the neighborhood, and 2) everyone could afford to go see a game and see them play.



i saw a documentary on the old brooklyn dodgers and most of the players did live in the neighborhood and even walked to the stadium for their games. times have changed.


advertising and endorsements money really makes the owners well off. you think players can just purchase a ball club? players make a fraction of what the owners are making. due to union membership, the salaries have gone up as well.

[camarokids]

Yes, salaries are out of this world. The owners agree to pay the high salaries. So they can blame themselves.

Also, don't forget about all the money owners receive from the TV contracts.....so ticket revenues are just more icing on the cake.

Then you have the rich teams wanting to outbid everyone else....

[jppopma]

Way way way too high. I don't so much feel bad for those of us with decent jobs who can afford to pay the outrageous prices, but the kids out there that really are not getting as first hand chance to fall in love with the sport. Many of the best players came from very humble upbringing and fell in love with the game as an escape from the reality of the streets. Overcommercialization of the game is really taking away from the sport and cutting alot out.

My simple solution...cut everything in half! Salaries and ticket prices as well. It's not like any of these players will be hurting if they make 4 million instead of 8 million.

[Vintagedeputy]

i saw a documentary on the old brooklyn dodgers and most of the players did live in the neighborhood and even walked to the stadium for their games. times have changed.




I saw a similar show that said that the local deli owner would drop off packages of deli meat to the player's homes to help make ends meet during the off season when they didnt make any money!

[suave1477]

i saw a documentary on the old brooklyn dodgers and most of the players did live in the neighborhood and even walked to the stadium for their games. times have changed.


advertising and endorsements money really makes the owners well off. you think players can just purchase a ball club? players make a fraction of what the owners are making. due to union membership, the salaries have gone up as well.

Yes most of the Yankees in the old days lived right in the neighborhood and what made it su much more of a love of the game was that they were (of the town) guys so not only did they live down the block from you. You got to see them hanging out around town.
Mantle, Maris & Bob Cerv live in an apartment in queens
Whitey Ford lived in an apartment in queens
Gil Hodges lived in Brooklyn and his wife still lives in the same houe til this day
So not only did Joe Schmoe who lived down the block play baseball he hung out at a club, bar or somthing else in the area.

Thats what made you love these guys they can be spotted anytime in your area - they didnt have the arod money to be flying every other weekend to vacation in the Islands. They hung out around town

How many signtings do you see or hear about of AROD in New York no where near as many as you might of heard about Mantle.

AS FAR AS PLAYERS BEING ABLE TO BUY CLUBS - DO THE MATH - THEY CAN
Current Value of the NY Yankees $1026 mil

All that takes is these players salaries

AROD
Jeter
Texira
Jason Giambi

These 4 players combined could buy the club

[suave1477]

AS FAR AS PLAYERS BEING ABLE TO BUY CLUBS - DO THE MATH - THEY CAN
Current Value of the NY Yankees $1026 mil

All that takes is these players salaries

AROD
Jeter
Texira
Jason Giambi

These 4 players combined could buy the club

I forgot to mention that would be a break down over a ten year span

[mariner_gamers]

No, salaries are in line with what someone is willing to pay for a very specific skill set. More people in this world are qualified to become doctors and lawyers than 3rd basemen for the Yankees. Salaries will climb until baseball hits a financial wall and then they will start to come down.

I find it humorous individuals compare their professions to professional athletes. We have built them, we cheer them on and we covet the items they use at their jobs. There is no comparison, clearly most people in our culture find athletics and entertainment our most important professions. I am not talking the lip service we pay doctors and teachers I am talking about how we vote with our dollars. They are a reflection of all of us buying tickets, jerseys, hot dogs, beer, etc.

Why does an athlete making $8 million a year make people feel better than one making $30 million?? Who cares!?!? Both those numbers are astronomical and more than 95% of us will ever see.

MLB is more accessible to today's children than it has ever been. There is no longer just the game of the week or daily paper. Baseball is 24/7 during the season with the net, tv, stadiums, video games etc. Sure in the 1950's it was great to spend the day at the stadium but nowadays that is not ideal for everyone. Inexpensive tickets can still be found at all venues and you can take your own sandwiches and peanuts in.

[kingjammy24]

admittedly, i don't understand much of this thread.

in 2007, nike made $800mm from the "air jordan" brand. what would be a fair, proportionate amount for michael jordan to ask for from a firm that made $800mm from his brand? $100k? would that be fair? if alex rodriguez helped personally generate $40mm for the yankees in increased ticket sales, tv contracts, and merchandise, what should he ask for? $1mm? because taking $10mm from $40mm that he generated would be "too much"?

if players agreed to work for 50% less, where would the additional money go? to the owners. is that a better solution? would folks be much happier if arod played for $5mm/yr and gave the $15mm he gave up to steinbrenner?

some here seem to be saying that if players made less, then ticket prices would be reduced, as if ticket prices are a result of salaries. they are not. ticket prices are a result of teams seeing the maximum amount they can charge while still managing to fill the stadium up to a decent level. if the lakers find they can fill staples center to 90% capacity every single night and charge $200/ticket then they'll charge $200 a ticket. if their player expenses increased, and they found they charge $250/ticket and still maintain 90% capacity, then they'd obviously increase prices to $250/ticket. it has nothing to do with player salaries. it has to do with profit maximization. if the lakers were filling up the house at $200/seat and their payroll then decreased, why on earth would they reduce ticket prices? they'll just keep the extra profit.

this is basic economics 101. how can ticket prices and salaries be "too high" when teams are operating at a profit? if an item is priced "too high" (ie: out of the range of the majority of the target market) then the product wouldn't sell and the company would go out of business. baseball teams aren't immune to basic economic principles. the montreal expos weren't selling and eventually the team folded. if there really were tons of empty seats constantly at yankee stadium, then the team would be forced to reduce prices and reduce expenses or else they'd up like the expos. if neither are being reduced then it's likely that while ticket prices may be too high for some consumers, they aren't too high for others. if most of those others end up being the "ultra rich" then i guess that's just free market economics.

some have brought up baseball in the 50s and 60s. what were tv contracts like back then? and global merchandising? were kids in china buying duke snider tshirts and watching jackie robinson on tv? there's more money to be had so what are you going to do with it all? altruistically pass the savings to the consumer? this isn't communism. ;)

rudy.

[shoremen44]

Rudy,
I understand your point and business is business... the fans and the market have created these issues, but it is not simple free market economics... Sports leagues in this country are a monopoly and free to function as such.

The reason I dont pay $200 for a pair of Nikes is that I have 500 other options. When it comes to my baseball team I do not. But it goes even deeper than that... th issue is that fans like me grew up watching the same teams their fathers and grandfathers rooted for... understandable again the fans are still going and paying the prices, but when players are getting upwards of $20 Million a season, and teams are making money hand over fist, yet the fans are asked to pay an exorbitant amount for tickets, hot dogs, ect... the emotion comes out because we follow these teams every year and we bleed with them...

I have no problem paying more money for tickets every year, but it is out of control... after one of the worst years economically in American history the Avg MLB ticket is still rising 11%...

I grew up going to Memorial Stadium in Baltimore... I used to go to the games as kid, walk up and buy seats with my dad for nothing... we did this almost every day during the summer... Now I am lucky if I go to one game a year...

I understand the economics of it, but it is more than a business to the fans, and I for one feel slighted

[cjclong]

When I started this I said that we live in a capitalistic society and that certain people with unusual skills that are in demand will earn more than the average person. Most of us accept that. Obviously there are more people that can be doctors in society than Hall of Fame hitters. (Although we need doctors more than athletes. There are not many countries that do well without doctors while there are plenty without 3rd basemen.) My big complaint is the EXCESS of salaries. Its a valid point that society and the game have both changed. But I think one of the changes that hurt sports was the overpaying of players. I'm sure there have always been people who complained about athletes salaries (Someone asked Babe Ruth when he made $80,000 if he thought it was right that he made as much as the President of the United States and Ruth said, "I had a better year." If the President was Hoover he was probably right.) But I don't think most fans begrudged Ruth or Mantle their salaries because they were not totally out of line with what other people, like firemen or policemen or teachers made. Now they are. Andrew Jones had one of the worst seasons in baseball history and no one expects he will give any of the millions he was paid back. Players who are not producing are making more in a year than most people will make in their lives. It is totally out of proportion It was asked who cares if a player makes $30 million. When the salaries get totally out of whack, and remember we pay them, then fans resent it and I think fewer will come, especially if the economy stays bad. Would it be good if the salaries were lower and the owners kept the money? Of course not, but that is not the only alternative. There is no reason that ticket prices could not be cut somewhat, and if the public demanded it that is what would happen. Even if a team continued to make money no one wants to play in a 50,000 seat stadium with 5,000 fans. I'm not one who hates players because of their salaries. I like Jeter and Teixeira and Rivera and I'm even ok with ARod. But I do think their salaries are too high And if the excessive salaries are beginning to get to me, and I don't think I am the only one. And I think at some point, if it continues it will hurt the sport.

[jppopma]

Economics being economics....do the owners seem to have any care of the whole business crashing? There has to be a point at which people will have enough. However, less people go, they raise prices, and keep their profit level (all while whining and crying nonstop). It's just a shame that they will continue to milk anything they can from the fans.

Personally I am a fan of the game, not the business or anything else. Maybe that's why I actually prefer to go to minor league games with my son where he can have more interaction with the players and we can stretch our money further. This year, I may even try to take him to some Michigan baseball games or even high school.

That's just me..I can't answer for the people I see at games with season tickets looking like their kids may go hungry to afford them.

[kingjammy24]

bert:
i understand and appreciate that an integral part of american culture is increasingly withheld from the masses. i do think this is unfortunate. i was simply pointing out that player salaries aren't out of line when seen in the context of total team revenue and player salaries aren't responsible for ticket price increases. demand drives ticket prices and ticket prices in turn drive player salaries. not the reverse. in 2003, arte moreno increased the angels team payroll and yet decreased ticket prices. the angels have one of the highest payrolls in the major leagues yet their ticket prices are in the middle of the pack.

i think owners are in part able to increase ticket prices because urban populations are increasing while stadium sizes are staying constant, thus making it substantially easier to fill stadiums. the old yankee stadium held 57,545 and was built in 1923 when the population of nyc was 5.6mm. today the population of nyc is 8.3mm and the capacity of the new yankee stadium is 52,325. for those that say there'll be a lot of empty seats in the new yankee stadium, i'd like you to think about how effortless it is to fill 52k seats in a city of almost 9 million. all they have to do is get 0.05% of the city to come. should be quite a challenge, especially in such an impoverished place like nyc.

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

cjclong:
your baseline for determining "excess" and "overpayment" is to compare it to the average joe and historical baseball salaries. i don't understand the validity of any of that. there's more money available today than there was 60 yrs ago. by your logic, michael jordan making $100mm in 1 year from nike alone would be "excessive" and "out of proportion". but what of the fact that nike made $800mm from the "air jordan" brand? the pie is so massive that any slice is going to be deemed "excessive". in fact, the amount paid to jordan would be very much in proportion to the amount he generated. but you're not looking at the big pie. you're just looking at the fact that jordan made $100mm and johnny fireman made $60k and back in the day george mikan didn't make that much more than the local fireman even though in george mikan's day there were no tv contracts. again, if you generated $800mm/yr, how much should you be entitled to? i'd really like to hear your answer. (remember, if you say anything above $10mm it's excessive. of course, $10mm is only 1% but you don't look at percentages that truly show what's proportionate. you simply look at what other folks are making and $10mm is more than most so therefore it's excessive.) like i said, the money, supplied by the fans, is there. someone has to get it. your alternative for this money:

"There is no reason that ticket prices could not be cut somewhat, and if the public demanded it that is what would happen."

there's no financial reason to cut them if a team is enjoying healthy attendance figures. the public is going to demand it? what public is this? apparently not the public that's actually filling the stadiums up. the public that can't afford to go to games? they'll demand it and teams that are financially healthy will do it? wow. i need to go picket outside my local porsche dealership. i can't wait to drive home in a carrera GT for $30k! i won't hold my breath though. the only way prices will go down is if demand goes down, which you imply will happen:

"Even if a team continued to make money no one wants to play in a 50,000 seat stadium with 5,000 fans."

how would a team continue operate profitably by attracting 5000 fans to a 50,000 seat stadium? if demand truly goes down, then obviously prices will go down. however, contrary to what you're saying, prices aren't causing demand to go down. from an '07 MLB article:

"Major League Baseball remains on pace for a fourth consecutive year of record-breaking attendance. Through Saturday's games, 49,999,879 fans had attended games this season at an average of 32,258 fans per game. Attendance through Saturday's games is running 4.4 percent ahead of the total through the same date last season."

from an '08 article:

"The 2008 Major League Baseball regular season is the second highest attendance mark in history, drawing 78,624,324, falling just 1.14 percent below last year’s record of 79,502,524 in paid attendance, a sign that baseball’s popularity remains exceptionally strong."

fenway park has the highest average ticket price (over $48) in the entire major leagues and yet sets attendance records every season. conversely, oakland has an average price of $29 and yet is 27th in attendance.

rudy.

[frikativ54]

Maybe I am the only one who feels this way, but I think that athletes have a right to make as much money as they can possibly get. People like to talk about doctors, teachers, and firemen, but when it comes down to it, athletes mean more in the sports fan's lives than do these people. Who thinks about their second grade teacher any more or the doctor who took out their wisdom teeth? What we think about is the guys on the diamond, and as fans, their success is intimately tied to our own self-concept. The same cannot be said for firemen. And as long as we continue to enjoy the fruits of these athletes' talents, I think it only fair to compensate them for their hours of work and training. Plus, the money is worth it for the lack of privacy that these guys have. How would you like it if you couldn't even have a beer at the local bar without 20 people coming up to you and hounding you for an autograph? These people deserve every penny of what they make, and many give back to the community and their skills help keep the economy running.

[kellsox]

Maybe I am the only one who feels this way, but I think that athletes have a right to make as much money as they can possibly get. People like to talk about doctors, teachers, and firemen, but when it comes down to it, athletes mean more in the sports fan's lives than do these people. Who thinks about their second grade teacher any more or the doctor who took out their wisdom teeth? What we think about is the guys on the diamond, and as fans, their success is intimately tied to our own self-concept. The same cannot be said for firemen. And as long as we continue to enjoy the fruits of these athletes' talents, I think it only fair to compensate them for their hours of work and training. Plus, the money is worth it for the lack of privacy that these guys have. How would you like it if you couldn't even have a beer at the local bar without 20 people coming up to you and hounding you for an autograph? These people deserve every penny of what they make, and many give back to the community and their skills help keep the economy running.
Yeah, I'm sure the cancer(or fill in any other serious illness) survivor never thinks of the doctors that treated them. Same can probably be said of the student who had a teacher that helped him/her get into college or help them work out their problems. Baseball is entertainment and players are compensated accordingly. What was said about the other professions in the above post is extremely shortsighted.
Kelly

[mariner_gamers]

cjclong:
your baseline for determining "excess" and "overpayment" is to compare it to the average joe and historical baseball salaries. i don't understand the validity of any of that. there's more money available today than there was 60 yrs ago. by your logic, michael jordan making $100mm in 1 year from nike alone would be "excessive" and "out of proportion". but what of the fact that nike made $800mm from the "air jordan" brand? the pie is so massive that any slice is going to be deemed "excessive". in fact, the amount paid to jordan would be very much in proportion to the amount he generated. but you're not looking at the big pie. you're just looking at the fact that jordan made $100mm and johnny fireman made $60k and back in the day george mikan didn't make that much more than the local fireman even though in george mikan's day there were no tv contracts. again, if you generated $800mm/yr, how much should you be entitled to? i'd really like to hear your answer. (remember, if you say anything above $10mm it's excessive. of course, $10mm is only 1% but you don't look at percentages that truly show what's proportionate. you simply look at what other folks are making and $10mm is more than most so therefore it's excessive.) like i said, the money, supplied by the fans, is there. someone has to get it. your alternative for this money:

"There is no reason that ticket prices could not be cut somewhat, and if the public demanded it that is what would happen."

there's no financial reason to cut them if a team is enjoying healthy attendance figures. the public is going to demand it? what public is this? apparently not the public that's actually filling the stadiums up. the public that can't afford to go to games? they'll demand it and teams that are financially healthy will do it? wow. i need to go picket outside my local porsche dealership. i can't wait to drive home in a carrera GT for $30k! i won't hold my breath though. the only way prices will go down is if demand goes down, which you imply will happen:

"Even if a team continued to make money no one wants to play in a 50,000 seat stadium with 5,000 fans."

how would a team continue operate profitably by attracting 5000 fans to a 50,000 seat stadium? if demand truly goes down, then obviously prices will go down. however, contrary to what you're saying, prices aren't causing demand to go down. from an '07 MLB article:

"Major League Baseball remains on pace for a fourth consecutive year of record-breaking attendance. Through Saturday's games, 49,999,879 fans had attended games this season at an average of 32,258 fans per game. Attendance through Saturday's games is running 4.4 percent ahead of the total through the same date last season."

from an '08 article:

"The 2008 Major League Baseball regular season is the second highest attendance mark in history, drawing 78,624,324, falling just 1.14 percent below last year’s record of 79,502,524 in paid attendance, a sign that baseball’s popularity remains exceptionally strong."

fenway park has the highest average ticket price (over $48) in the entire major leagues and yet sets attendance records every season. conversely, oakland has an average price of $29 and yet is 27th in attendance.

rudy.

Damn, how do you type so fast!!! I concur with every point and have one small one to add. I travel quite a bit and been to many ballparks. It always seems the $5-$20 seats are the empty ones and the most expensive are packed. Most all seats in today's parks offer a great view. How much lower would folks like to see tickets get??? Perhaps I need to start a thread on how you can see baseball games cheap?

[frikativ54]

Yeah, I'm sure the cancer(or fill in any other serious illness) survivor never thinks of the doctors that treated them. Same can probably be said of the student who had a teacher that helped him/her get into college or help them work out their problems. Baseball is entertainment and players are compensated accordingly. What was said about the other professions in the above post is extremely shortsighted.
Kelly

I have medical problems, and of course, I thank the doctors who have been helpful in my life. And I owe nice teachers - though few and far between - a debt that I can never repay. But that doesn't mean they deserve more money than a professional athlete. I would hate to live in a world where doctors made more money than athletes. How many doctors would be in it just for the money and not for the love of helping patients? But I still don't think that doctors can provide as much joy in patients' lives than athletes do for the common human being. That's why they are paid the big bucks. While a doctor might bring joy to those of us with serious medical problems, the sick are a minority in society. Most people are healthy. And for those of us who aren't healthy, I can testify that athletes have brought more joy into my life than most doctors have.

[godwulf]

A Baseball player who has to keep himself at least somewhat in shape year-round, over many years, train, practice, and then play in 150 or more games over the course of the season, and spend close to half that time on the road, away from family and home, doing what only an elite few in the entire world are even capable of doing at his level, makes 15 to 20 million dollars, and people get snarky about it.

A top, A-list actor gets the same money for performing in front of a camera for two to three months, making a movie in ten minute increments, with plenty of breaks for snacks and cocktails, and everybody thinks it's great. :rolleyes: