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View Full Version : Should Collectors DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK?



ChrisCavalier
12-27-2008, 06:30 PM
Hello Everyone,

I saw a recent interaction of the forum regarding whether or not team LOAs are important when buying modern game used items. While I am certainly not going to make a blanket statement for all current game used items, I would like to address whether or not it is important for a game used item to have team paperwork when it comes from a professional sports football team that has a deal with a memorabilia company.

Although we have yet to formally announced it, Game Used Universe recently completed a team deal with the Oakland Raiders and J.O. Sports, Inc. For those not familiar with J.O. Sports, Inc., they also have team deals with the Minnesota Vikings, Chicago Bears and Washington Redskins. Among other things, the deal will give GUU and J.O. Sports, Inc. exclusive rights to market Raider game used items for the next three years.

While we were in discussions with the Raiders, I was speaking with someone who was interested in acquiring a game used JaMarcus Russell jersey. Prior to the GUU/JO/Raider deal, those knowledgeable in the industry were well aware that the Raiders really haven’t put many modern gamers out on the secondary market. Knowing it was nearly impossible to find legitimate current Raider game used items, I told this person I had some contacts with the Raiders and would let them know if I would be able to get them the jersey they wanted. In talking with the Raiders, I was able to find out that there had only been one legitimate JaMarcus Russell game used jersey previously ever offered to the secondary market and that jersey had been sold in a Raider auction through Ticketmaster. As things progressed with the Raiders and we knew that the deal would likely happen, I thought I would be able to impress our customer with our ability to provide him with this hard-to-find item.

As we completed the deal with the Raiders I went back to the customer only to find out they had already acquired what they were told was a JaMarcus Russell “gamer” from a dealer in the hobby. When I heard this I thought to myself, how could this dealer get a JaMarcus Russell gamer? The one sold through Ticketmaster almost surely went to a collector. What are the odds of the dealer actually having a legitimate JaMarcus Russell gamer, especially one without team paperwork? Quite frankly, I’d say the odds were almost zero.

As I thought about this I also thought about all the other supposed football “gamers” without team paperwork I have seen offered through various venues in the secondary market when I know marketing companies have rights to those items. While certainly there may be some instances where players may want to keep their jerseys or something along those lines, how many jerseys can there really be outside the ones going through the marketing companies when the marketing company has a deal with the team? I know the deal we have with the Raiders is exclusive and, although the Raiders do have the right to offer a few on their own in various Raider events, every Raider gamer will come with documentation from the team. How could it be then that our customer was able to get a JaMarcus Russell “gamer” from a dealer in the hobby without Raider paperwork?

I also know about the J.O. Sports deal with the Vikings. Although J.O. Sports doesn’t get every Adrian Peterson game used jersey, they get most of them and know where the ones they don’t get end up. How is it then that there are so many Adrian Peterson “gamers” being offered in the market, especially without team paperwork? And again, everyone who knows the hobby intimately knows it is just about impossible to get New England Patriots game used jerseys, let alone a legitimate Tom Brady game used jersey. Yet, I don’t know how many Tom Brady “game used” jerseys I have seen on the market in the last six months alone, a number of them with third-party authentication.

For those of you thinking these items are “getting out the back door” let me tell you that I have personally met with both the marketing and operations people from the Raiders. I will tell you that they are all knowledgeable, intelligent and highly ethical. In fact, I personally go to the Raiders facility to pick up the jerseys directly from them. To be honest, the idea that these jerseys are/will be “getting out the back door” is just not true. While I don’t want to take the liberty of speaking for others, I can tell you the same is also likely true for the Cowboys, Bears, Vikings and Redskins.

To go one step further, it is my understanding that the FBI is looking into where some of these supposed “game used” jerseys are coming from and I hope something is done about it. I also hope the entities selling these types of jerseys for consignors will begin to take more responsibility in what they are selling. Instead of putting money first and writing it of as it just being a “matter or opinion”, those accepting consignments should be aware of the deals these teams have with marketing companies and take responsibility when consignors try to sell these supposed “gamers” through their venues.

Lastly, collectors need to take the time to educate themselves as well. On items where they know team deals exist, they should DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK. In my opinion, there will come a time when the general collecting community will become more aware of team deals and collectors will know there is just no way so many of these supposed “gamers” without team paperwork can really exist. I hope at that point those creating these items will be held accountable for what they have done. To me, it is no different than a counterfeiter only one uses paper as their medium and the other a garment. Whether or not that happens remains to be seen. However, what I do believe is the ones who are really going to lose out are the ones buying these items believing they are getting “deals”. They will be the ones in the end who will be holding these suspect items when the general collecting community becomes more aware of the situation. As a collector, when you know a professional team has a deal with a marketing company for their game used items it is up to you to DEMAND TEAM PAPERWORK. Otherwise, you may end up being the one left holding the bag.

TFig27
12-27-2008, 07:09 PM
Team paperwork is good to a point. I believe there should be some consistency between the teams on how the COAs are written. Are there pictures of the item? Is there some numbered database to look up a COA? There needs to be some way to directly connect the paperwork to the item.
I collect mostly baseball and am not sure what your team paperwork looks like. But, I purchased a Derek Jeter game used bat direct from Steiner this year and received a paper COA signed by Derek. But, there's no way to tie this bat to the letter. This has to be one of the most ridiculous ways to have a COA for an item. Now, I plan on keeping the bat, so it really doesn't not affect me. But, if someone wanted to sell their bat they have no way of proving "this letter" goes with "this bat". Or even, if someone wanted to switch out the Jeter bat, and sell any Jeter bat with the letter, they could.
For other team COA's, I have also seen team letter that have a blank line where someone writes in pen what the item is. Five to ten years from now when someone sees this type of letter when they are looking to buy an item, they might have no clue if this letter really originated from the team, or is connected to the item. Many of these letters can be created on a computer by anyone.
I would be interesed in seeing what your paperwork looks like and how it connects directly to the item.

Good luck with the deal,
Tom

G1X
12-27-2008, 08:54 PM
As a collector, I have never asked for paperwork and never will. Too many times I have seen teams dish out letters stating that a jersey is game-worn when it is nothing more than obviously team-issued or made for charity purposes such as game-cut jerseys. There is also the problem where dishonest folks will take a good letter and put it with a bad jersey. (See Tom's excellent post.)

As a dealer, I sell mostly NFL jerseys of common players at very reasonable prices. I rarely provide team paperwork unless it is offered by the team. My customers do not demand team paperwork for the most part, so I never ask for team letters when negotiating a deal. But again, I am dealing mostly in "commons" and avoid the super stars for a variety of reasons. Why bother asking for a letter on a 2005 Eagles jersey of Michael Lewis that shows brutal game wear?

I have made small bulk buys from both the Eagles and the Redskins over the past several years despite both teams dealing almost exclusively with other companies. These were legitimate deals made through their respective front offices. So, are my Eagles and 'Skins jerseys not any good simply because they don't have paperwork?

Despite what some might think or say, don't believe for a moment that items never "escape" from the teams. The idea of a guy standing at the back entrance with a handful of Ben Franklins waiting for the equipment manager to sneak out a few jerseys is probably fantasy for the most part, but some stuff gets out from various sources, and I would think that it is done legitimately in almost every case. Just because stuff gets out into the hobby doesn't mean that anything illegal or underhanded took place.

As for demanding paperwork, it is just my humble opinion, but part of the problem with the hobby is that some collectors depend way too much on paperwork. There are more than a few collectors who wouldn't know a legitimate jersey if they held it in their hand. Instead of worrying about the fancy paperwork, they should be learning about the jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL jerseys

mvandor
12-27-2008, 09:16 PM
With all due respect Chris, in cutting your deal with the Raiders to include such LOA paperwork, you have a pretty clear vested financial interest in magnifying the value of such while creating worries about items lacking what you have to offer. Your post is of course self promotional and not so thinly veiled. Your sandbox, your rules, granted - no complaints, just the observation.

Should such be a plus? Sure. But I do find it pretty likely that players take jerseys home, as do other personnel with adequate opportunity or authority where the checks and balances in place don't prevent same.

Is a team LOA a plus? Certainly, particularly if tied to the item through photos and holograms, but very often those team LOA's are just letterhead that can be matched to any item. Hopefully your procedures are or will be tighter.

both-teams-played-hard
12-27-2008, 11:32 PM
These are my own comments cut&pasted from another thread:

"Impeccable sources of provenance, team paperwork, letters of authenticity, certificates of opinion, notorized statements, etc. really don't mean jack. They look nice when framed next to the item in question, to impress the neophytes. A game used jersey or bat or glove either is real or it is not real. Legitimate items authenticate themselves. Think about Tony's Arod bat.....Arod himself claims it to be something that it may not be."

However, I can see why team paperwork can help a dealer's sales. Many collectors are new to the game and they might need re-assurance. Many are not collectors at all; they just dig sports.
So, as for team letters of provenance: "Nice paperwork, if you can get it."
The LOAs might not always correctly identify the item. A team letter is gravy, but gravy sometimes has lumps.

jppopma
12-28-2008, 12:16 AM
While team LOAs have their problems and some may question their worth, I have always gone with the notion that anything is better that nothing. Even if it doesn't mean anything to you, it may be the breaking point to a buyer at some point down the road. If the team does not issue a LOA on team letterhead, it would be wise to keep a copy of the sales slip, packing slip, or anything else to show later on that the item was indeed purchased from the team.

scottanservitz
12-28-2008, 12:23 AM
I think the posts made on this topic are all correct in one aspect, that sure team letters are very reassuring to buyers that really don't know what they are looking for. I've seen jerseys that have team COA and show little to no wear. I actually own one. I have no doubt it came from the team and the jersey saw action in maybe one game. We have also debated whether team repairs prove actual authenticity. I know there are many good jerseys without team repairs. I tend to agree that the jersey should prove it is or isn't a gamer. Especially NFL jerseys. A punter jersey versus a linebacker jersey would definitely tell a better story than a piece of paper. I've bought from Mark without a team letter and was 100% satisfied with the jersey because the jersey was the telltale about its use. I do like the fact that most of JO's jerseys say what game they were used in. The buyer has a very high chance of being able to find photos that will match up to the jersey. I for one would say photo evidence is very crucial in identifying authenticity. I have one jersey that I found about 5-6 things that match up perfectly to the jersey. For me that is the most reassuring proof I could get. And it doesn't have a team letter. I also have an older jersey from the Patriots that has the team stamp on the inside. It is also photo matched. I have a Rams jersey with the Prova tag. They said if the data base doesn't have the game listed that the jersey is just team issued. My jersey shows numerous turf burns and sweat marks. I know others that have similar jerseys with wear on them and Prova is known for having some glitches in their system. The shirt tells the story. So in closing, yes team LOA are nice. But in the end the jersey has to tell the buyer something in the way of where it's been. Atleast in my eyes.
Scott

skyking26
12-28-2008, 01:30 PM
Everybody knows where I stand on this. Letters and homework. The more info the better.

I received an email today from a gentleman selling a 2000 McGwire jersey. Wants an offer. Not one picture sent. I'm supposed to make an offer based on what??

RK

ChrisCavalier
12-28-2008, 02:36 PM
Hello Everyone,

First of all, thanks to everyone who has already shared their thoughts on this thread. I think this is an extremely important issue and I hope more people will also share their opinions. At this point, I did want to make a few points of clarification:

1) To make sure it is clear, as I stated in my initial post, the comments I made pertained to modern football teams who have deals with memorabilia companies. In particular, I was specifically looking to address modern star football player jerseys as those are the ones that are being targeted by whoever is making up the fake ones and those are the ones constantly up for sale throughout the hobby (that is why I used the JaMarcus Russell, Adrian Peterson and Tom Brady examples).

2) Contrary to the post that accused the topic of being one of “self promotion”, the reason for the post is actually to help collectors understand more about this major problem in the hobby. For those of you who don’t think it’s a problem, I can tell you the FBI is investigating this very issue. I just don’t think the FBI would spend their time investigating something that hasn’t been established as a legitimate problem.

While the FBI is doing what they are doing, we are also trying to do everything we can to protect collectors from bogus items that are being disseminated in the secondary market. That is why GUU is now involved with so many items that are being sourced directly from the teams (especially football). We know there is a problem in the market and we are working to provide collectors with truly legitimate items.

3) Regarding the LOAs, I think the point about the LOAs matching the items is a good one. Let me tell you what we are doing with the Raiders (JO Sports is also using the same protocols for Vikings, Redskins and Bears items). First of all, we are trying to get every item unwashed. All of the initial Raiders items we have received thus far are unwashed and show visible wear. In addition, all the Raider jerseys will have a “ThermoPatch” placed on the inside of every jersey which indicates the player and the game (or games) in which the jersey was used. When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage. The ThermoPatch will also have a hologram on it that will correspond to a matching hologram on a separate, physical LOA and the LOA will be signed by a representative of the Raiders.

I hope that makes things a little clearer regarding both the scope of the original post as well as why we are taking the efforts we are taking to make sure collectors have access to truly legitimate items. I have really enjoyed reading the comments thus far and look forward to hearing any additional thoughts/opinions as well.

ndevlin
12-28-2008, 03:11 PM
I dont know about you guys, but I learned quite a bit with GUU's auction of Rollie Fingers glove(with letter),the Arod bat with a letter signed by him, and the items going on with Favre.

If you want a letter, let me know, I can get one for you. Is it comforting? Sure, but it doesnt mean the item is what it is.

So are you asking our opinion based on the agreements you have made with NFL teams? If so, wouldnt that be for promotional use? Lets face it folks, this site is for profit now, nothing more, nothing less.

MichaelofSF
12-28-2008, 04:05 PM
Imagine if all 32 NFL teams had contracts with dealers to distribute their unwashed used jerseys. Imagine if all of these jerseys came with team letters with serial numbers on the letter and on the jersey.

If this were the standard there would be no reason to buy a back door/"impeccable team source" jerseys. There would be no reason to buy an undocumented jersey because there would be so many documented jerseys out there. The premium we now pay for documentation (NFL auctions/JO Sports/GUU store) would possibly be less too because this would now be standard. I currently am willing to pay more for a jersey from one of these places because they are easy to photomatch so I know the jersey I buy is good. If I knew all jerseys on the market were good, this premium would no longer exist. If all jerseys were documented, then jerseys without documentation couldn't exist as much as they do today.

Would there still be some of these bad jerseys? Sure, there will always be thiefs and suckers. Would it be easier to catch these criminals? Yes because the smarter criminals would find a different area for their thievery leaving the dumber ones to be caught. Use can be faked, team letters without specificity can be faked/switched.

I think MeiGray/JO sports/GUU store are a leap in the right direction. I know the prices are higher right now but the market will dictate what sells and what doesn't. If they become the standard, the supply of good jerseys will be higher, the premium we pay for documentation will go down and prices will have to come down (think Steiner).

Team letters done properly should be demanded going forward not because I need it to know a jersey is good, but to make less room for the bad jerseys.

MichaelofSF
12-28-2008, 04:10 PM
typo thiefs = thieves

JETEFAN
12-28-2008, 04:22 PM
Nate,

Couldn't agree with you more, the "ONLY" thing team exclusive distributorship does is create monopolies..... of course if I had an exclusive I would tell the world that you must have the letter !!! If one thing Steiner has done besides ruin the market for Yankees items is to show everyone that the "Steiner letter" does not guarantee the item is what they say it is. I have seen tons of mistakes on their part.. Do your own homework, I don't need a letter from Gerneral Motors to tell me the car I am looking at is a Camaro !!!! Back door, front door or side door, there will ALWAYS be more than 1 source for legit gamers.!!!!;)

George

jppopma
12-28-2008, 05:18 PM
These letters and safeguards are all good to us here, but in reality I'm not sure how much it will help elimiate the fake jerseys out there. It will certainly slow it down. However, sadly there are too many people out there that are not informed and will by these beyond fake jerseys that show up on ebay and elsewhere.

I guess we should appreciate any step, no matter how large or small, that we can take to eliminating the problems in our hobby. Hopefully the FBI investigation will get alot of press and in turn educate people about what is out there (but not so much as to affect our legit item's prices or scare people away from out hobby).

suave1477
12-28-2008, 08:20 PM
With all due respect Chris, in cutting your deal with the Raiders to include such LOA paperwork, you have a pretty clear vested financial interest in magnifying the value of such while creating worries about items lacking what you have to offer. Your post is of course self promotional and not so thinly veiled. Your sandbox, your rules, granted - no complaints, just the observation.

Should such be a plus? Sure. But I do find it pretty likely that players take jerseys home, as do other personnel with adequate opportunity or authority where the checks and balances in place don't prevent same.

Is a team LOA a plus? Certainly, particularly if tied to the item through photos and holograms, but very often those team LOA's are just letterhead that can be matched to any item. Hopefully your procedures are or will be tighter.

I think this was a great statement by this member.

I would also like to add.

Chris I would also like to say your saying everything is being accounted for the front offices, equipment managers, and who ever else on these staffs are keep an eye on everything. But one thing you left out.........

WHAT ABOUT THE PLAYER HIMSELF???

Its not like we know of any Home Run Hitter that plays for a team in New York thats sells his own stuff out the back door????????

So what would stop a NFL Player for ordering a couple of his own jerseys on the side and do what he wants with them whether it be to wear them and give them away to his family or for sale for profit???

Who's stopping the player????

skyking26
12-28-2008, 08:27 PM
I dont know about you guys, but I learned quite a bit with GUU's auction of Rollie Fingers glove(with letter),the Arod bat with a letter signed by him, and the items going on with Favre.

If you want a letter, let me know, I can get one for you. Is it comforting? Sure, but it doesnt mean the item is what it is.

So are you asking our opinion based on the agreements you have made with NFL teams? If so, wouldnt that be for promotional use? Lets face it folks, this site is for profit now, nothing more, nothing less.
Nate, I still learn and share at this site. What I do not understand is the feeling amongst many that this site or any other can operate for free?? Nothing is for free in life, other than advise, and many chrage for that as well!

kingjammy24
12-28-2008, 08:27 PM
many great points made so far. personally, i don't think the issue here is whether legit items exist without team paperwork. obviously they do, in the same way that there are also items with team paperwork that aren't what they're purported to be. rather, i think the real issue is whether collectors, in the face of "exclusive team deals", should limit themselves only to items with team provenance. that is, if legit items exist with provenance and without then why choose the ones without? sure mark hayne's jerseys are good but if you could purchase the same jerseys with team paperwork then isn't that a more attractive option? i see this as a "provenance vs no provenance" issue and to that end, i think there's merit in chris' argument. while provenance is no guarantee, i'd think at a minimum it's preferable to not having any provenance. (and saying "impeccable team source" is tantamount to having no provenance).

where i disagree is with chris' estimations of legit jerseys leaving via unofficial channels. obviously there are fewer than evidenced by ebay but i don't think things are as airtight as seems to be implied here. look at steiner's "exclusive" deal with the red sox. lowell, beckett, papelbon, and pedroia have all legitimately offered many of their jerseys through PMI. manny took most of his from the sox and dodgers as well. that's some "exclusive" contract when notable players on the team are able to strike individual contracts with competing firms and market their jerseys through those firms. time and time again i've seen legit shirts escape "exclusive" deals via a myriad of ways and reasons. i've yet to see a truly, 100% iron-clad exclusive deal where barely a single shirt escapes. chris, you address this issue by saying you've "..personally met with both the marketing and operations people from the Raiders...they are all..highly ethical...the idea that these jerseys are/will be “getting out the back door” is just not true. While I don’t want to take the liberty of speaking for others, I can tell you the same is also likely true for the Cowboys, Bears, Vikings and Redskins."

things won't be flowing out the back because you've met with some raider folks and they struck you as highly ethical? if they were unethical, would they have come out and admitted it to you? or were you able to somehow conclusively suss out such highly private information? if bernie madoff gained enough trust to manage $50 billion and play every single one of his investors, many of them highly intelligent, and the SEC for fools, then i'm guessing that it'd be possible for the raiders equipment staff to pull one over on chris cavalier.

"While certainly there may be some instances where players may want to keep their jerseys or something along those lines, how many jerseys can there really be outside the ones going through the marketing companies when the marketing company has a deal with the team?"

lots. if each of the 53 members of the raiders kept only 3 of their jerseys from the 2008 regular season, that'd be 159 legit gamers from 2008 alone that wouldn't be from JO Sports. if your deal allows players to keep some of their shirts, as the steiner/red sox deal does, then all you need is a couple of ramirezs and ortizs to take the majority of their shirts and market them privately. if jamarcus russell pulls a manny ramirez and takes most of his shirts, what will JO Sports do then? claim his shirts aren't legit because they don't come from JO Sports?

"In talking with the Raiders, I was able to find out that there had only been one legitimate JaMarcus Russell game used jersey previously ever offered to the secondary market.."

you were told there was only one legitimate one released. this may be different than how many were actually released. after all, if some were released and shouldn't have been, those probably wouldn't have been disclosed to you. anyway, did the number given include any jerseys that jamarcus took and resold himself/privately?

anyway, chris asked a blanket question and i don't think there's a blanket answer. i think every situation ought to be evaluated on its own merits. each person is different, each team is different, each company is different. all team provenance is not created equal. the JO Sports deals will be evaluated based on the quality of their offerings, not simply on their provenance. i think solid provenance is definitely a good thing. i don't think it's infallible. i don't believe things will be as airtight as chris implies. i think it definitely behooves JO Sports' bottomline for people to believe things are completely airtight; that it's as black and white as "if it's from us, it's legit, if it's not from us, it's not legit". as i said, i've seen too many athletes take their own shirts (even going so far as to fool team/league staff), shirts taken by team staff, taken by visting VIPs, etc to believe the whole thing can be airtight.

rudy.

kingjammy24
12-28-2008, 08:44 PM
will the JO Sports/Raiders deal be as exclusive as the Steiner/Red Sox deal?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130265437545

http://www.steinersports.com/ssm/control/product/~pid=200810451510025

or will the players determine that? if the contract enables players to take their jerseys, then they'll take them and market them wherever it's most profitable to them personally thereby rendering your agreement as no longer exclusive.

"There are few teams in sports with the storied history of the Boston Red Sox and Fenway Park. Developing an exclusive collectibles series is an exciting opportunity,” said Steiner Sports CEO Brandon Steiner. The deals are the latest of Steiner’s exclusive relationships with specific teams or universities."

rudy.

allstarsplus
12-28-2008, 09:08 PM
many great points made so far.

i think solid provenance is definitely a good thing. i don't think it's infallible. i don't believe things will be as airtight as chris implies. i think it definitely behooves JO Sports' bottomline for people to believe things are completely airtight; that it's as black and white as "if it's from us, it's legit, if it's not from us, it's not legit". as i said, i've seen too many athletes take their own shirts (even going so far as to fool team/league staff), shirts taken by team staff, taken by visting VIPs, etc to believe the whole thing can be airtight.

rudy.

Rudy - I agree.

Some may think that JO gets all of the Redskins jerseys which I don't think that may be correct as Comcast Sports has advertised significant Redskins jerseys from this year and then there is the Redskins Visa card promotion where you can get game used jerseys and then you have players that have jerseys.

Also to mention in these theories is whether the players are changing jerseys at Halftime.

Anyway, I think JO is doing an admirable job and their sales appear to be good.

I wish Chris much luck in the new store.

allstarsplus
12-28-2008, 09:16 PM
if the contract enables players to take their jerseys, then they'll take them and market them wherever it's most profitable to them personally thereby rendering your agreement as no longer exclusive.


rudy.

Rudy - As an agent said to me about Manny and his jerseys, "Is the team going to send him to the Minors for taking his jerseys?"

Let's face it, many players take liberties with their jerseys and equipment. It may not be right, but it happens all of the time.

In football, you had Brett Favre, Michael Vick, and others with their own GU deals. Peyton Manning jerseys were all over the internet.

kingjammy24
12-28-2008, 10:03 PM
Also to mention in these theories is whether the players are changing jerseys at Halftime.

Anyway, I think JO is doing an admirable job and their sales appear to be good.

I wish Chris much luck in the new store.

i hope my posts didn't come across as being critical of JO's efforts. certainly i think any ethical, competent outfit that scores a deal with a team and comes up with a great system to ID, tag, and sell gamers is definitely a good thing. i only meant to point the realities behind jerseys escaping "exclusive" deals.

certainly i think we're entering an era of "manufactured" gamers; ie: jerseys worn for specific time periods for the sake of resale. in a way i think that sort of production-line approach is unfortunate.
on the other hand, i think it's incredible how today you can place pre-orders for anything from cleats to locker nameplates to pants, jerseys, bats, hats, gloves, etc from specific players and specific games even. sure the supply has exploded but for pure collecting purposes it's hard to see that as a bad thing per se. if only things had been like this 20 yrs ago and i could've scored joe carter's cleats, robbie alomar's glove, or john olerud's custom batting helmet.

you know, i once asked steiner what's the deal with arod. they said that even cashman can't do anything because noone wants to run the risk of pissing him off. at $275 million, he pretty much owns them, rather than the other way around. if brian bruney wouldn't give over his shirts, steiner would go in swinging. if it's arod, noone can do anything. much like manny i guess. "it's good to be the king". maybe if steiner could've procured more ramirez and arod jerseys, they wouldn't have to resort to selling mike lowell jerseys for $4k. i believe they paid a fixed amount for the contract and likely figured in the price they thought they'd be getting for ramirez and arod shirts. once those two skidaddled, i imagine they had the jack the price up on everything else in order to make up for the ramirez/arod absence.

anyway, if JO Sports manages to procure fantastic gamers for the football crowd and they've got a solid system behind them, then it seems like a good thing all around.

rudy.

kingjammy24
12-28-2008, 10:09 PM
Rudy - As an agent said to me about Manny and his jerseys, "Is the team going to send him to the Minors for taking his jerseys?"

you remember when they sued ortiz!

"Ortiz also violated the exclusivity clause of their agreement by providing at least four other companies with autographed memorabilia and game-used items, diluting the value of items provided to Steiner, the suit claims.
The lawsuit asks for $1 million plus interest and an accounting of Ortiz' dealings with memorabilia companies in which he received money for autographs and used items."

then again, that was over a contract steiner had directly with ortiz himself. i imagine steiner couldn't/wouldn't sue the yankees because arod doesn't hand over his stuff.

rudy.

allstarsplus
12-28-2008, 10:26 PM
i hope my posts didn't come across as being critical of JO's efforts. certainly i think any ethical, competent outfit that scores a deal with a team and comes up with a great system to ID, tag, and sell gamers is definitely a good thing. i only meant to point the realities behind jerseys escaping "exclusive" deals.

rudy.

I think you were fair with your analysis. There is just not too many "sure things".

The closest to a sure thing I think is MLB Authenticators that are 3rd party individuals with law enforcement backgrounds that are on-site but even they are not 100% but it has more to do with their understanding of the players and the Game Used market. For example, they take a cracked bat and put a hologram on it and you check player characteristics to find it was used by another player. Honest mistakes will always happen.

allstarsplus
12-28-2008, 10:37 PM
i once asked steiner what's the deal with arod. they said that even cashman can't do anything because noone wants to run the risk of pissing him off. at $275 million, he pretty much owns them, rather than the other way around. rudy.

That's how I have heard it too.

One day I will share my story about my dealings trying to purchase some of Manny's significant game used items. That is a soap opera for another day.

gamer35
12-28-2008, 11:06 PM
Rudy,
From what I have seen, Steiner has gotten as many Manny Red Sox shirts as any other player throughout the course of the season (6 in 2007). And I also saw that when the Manny jerseys were sold through Steiner at 5k a pop, they were sold almost immediately. Yet when the initial buyers went to sell them in the secondary market, they saw $2500 tops (I remember one selling thru Lelands at 3k, but that is an anomaly). It does not seem too wise, but I guess it does show you that collectors are willing to pay a premium through Steiner even though there are other legit Manny jerseys out there without team LOA's.

ChrisCavalier
12-29-2008, 11:59 AM
First of all, I want to say I think there have been some really great posts on this topic so far. I’d like to add a few more thoughts.

1) Relating to the Raiders items, I believe I mentioned in my original post that there would certainly be instances where some players may want to keep their jerseys as well as the fact that the Raiders may still offer a few jerseys through various Raider events.

2) Regarding the ones offered through the Raiders, I personally would think all of those items would also have Raider paperwork. I believe the same is true for other teams with memorabilia deals as well. For example, I do know the Redskins offer some items outside of the ones they offer to JO Sports. However, from what I can see the other ones coming from the Redskins also appear to all have Redskin paperwork. I personally think the fact they do provide team letters helps weed out the questionable ones that are being offered in the hobby. That is, I would expect any item coming through these various channels by the Redskins to have Redskin paperwork.

3) As for items kept by the players, I really couldn’t say with certainty where those items go. However, given the ones that are taken by star players for resale purposes are now often being sold with player LOAs, I personally don’t think all of the star football jerseys on the market without any paperwork are coming through that scenario. They again, I guess that is a matter of opinion.

4) As for whether or not a team would circumvent a contractual deal they have with a memorabilia company by offering items through unauthorized channels, I guess that is a matter of faith. There is really no way to absolutely refute the comment made here that it is possible. Of course anything is possible. The point I was making was that, based on the relationship we have established with the Raiders, I believe they intend to honor the contract. I can say the same for the Cowboys as I was in the meetings with them as well. And, if a number of star Raider jerseys begin to show up in the secondary market without team paperwork, there will likely be some discussions with them as to why.

I guess that brings me back to the question I would be asking if I was a collector. That is, we know for a fact that there is a problem with bogus jerseys being offered in the secondary market. Specifically, A-Tier football players (quarterbacks, running backs and wide receivers) since that is where the money is being made. If it wasn’t a problem, I don’t think the FBI would be involved. With that said, what can we continue to do on our end to help prevent this problem from continuing? Among other things, I was suggesting that collectors should demand team paperwork on items coming from teams with memorabilia deals. In instances where team paperwork does not exist for these teams, I think collectors should ask every question possible before making a purchase. For example, I would be very skeptical of any hockey jersey being offered without a letter from teams that have a deal with MeiGray. We know right now the collecting community is being exposed to many supposed “game used” items that truly aren’t and I think that is one way to help protect collectors.

JETEFAN
12-29-2008, 01:34 PM
First of all, I want to say I think there have been some really great posts on this topic so far. I’d like to add a few more thoughts.

1) Relating to the Raiders items, I believe I mentioned in my original post that there would certainly be instances where some players may want to keep their jerseys as well as the fact that the Raiders may still offer a few jerseys through various Raider events.

2) Regarding the ones offered through the Raiders, I personally would think all of those items would also have Raider paperwork. I believe the same is true for other teams with memorabilia deals as well. For example, I do know the Redskins offer some items outside of the ones they offer to JO Sports. However, from what I can see the other ones coming from the Redskins also appear to all have Redskin paperwork. I personally think the fact they do provide team letters helps weed out the questionable ones that are being offered in the hobby. That is, I would expect any item coming through these various channels by the Redskins to have Redskin paperwork.

3) As for items kept by the players, I really couldn’t say with certainty where those items go. However, given the ones that are taken by star players for resale purposes are now often being sold with player LOAs, I personally don’t think all of the star football jerseys on the market without any paperwork are coming through that scenario. They again, I guess that is a matter of opinion.

4) As for whether or not a team would circumvent a contractual deal they have with a memorabilia company by offering items through unauthorized channels, I guess that is a matter of faith. There is really no way to absolutely refute the comment made here that it is possible. Of course anything is possible. The point I was making was that, based on the relationship we have established with the Raiders, I believe they intend to honor the contract. I can say the same for the Cowboys as I was in the meetings with them as well. And, if a number of star Raider jerseys begin to show up in the secondary market without team paperwork, there will likely be some discussions with them as to why.

I guess that brings me back to the question I would be asking if I was a collector. That is, we know for a fact that there is a problem with bogus jerseys being offered in the secondary market. Specifically, A-Tier football players (quarterbacks, running backs and wide receivers) since that is where the money is being made. If it wasn’t a problem, I don’t think the FBI would be involved. With that said, what can we continue to do on our end to help prevent this problem from continuing? Among other things, I was suggesting that collectors should demand team paperwork on items coming from teams with memorabilia deals. In instances where team paperwork does not exist for these teams, I think collectors should ask every question possible before making a purchase. For example, I would be very skeptical of any hockey jersey being offered without a letter from teams that have a deal with MeiGray. We know right now the collecting community is being exposed to many supposed “game used” items that truly aren’t and I think that is one way to help protect collectors.

Chris,

When you refer to "Bogus items being offered in the secondary market" what exactly are you refering to, use, real gamers, altered , etc? If you pick up an item from the secondary market and it is bogus, you didn't do your homework, don't buy a duck if it walks and barks like a dog, that holds true for items regardless of who's LOA is attached. Even the so called experts and "exclusive suppliers" have been linked to bogus items. Bottom line if all matches up and you check it out from all angles, an "LOA" and a hefty price tag does not make the item any more real or legit.

George

yankees24
12-29-2008, 01:36 PM
what happens even if you get official paperwork but the jersey/equipment doesn't photo match?

allstarsplus
12-29-2008, 02:53 PM
First of all, I want to say I think there have been some really great posts on this topic so far. I’d like to add a few more thoughts.

We know right now the collecting community is being exposed to many supposed “game used” items that truly aren’t and I think that is one way to help protect collectors.

Chris - I think that if I knew the Raiders had a deal for all game used jerseys and someone was offering me a JaMarcus Russell without a team letter I would probably pass on it unless there was an overwhelming reason to believe it was real. I have taken the same tact with current Yankees jerseys and to-date have not purchased any without Steiner documentation.

If you recall, there have been many a heated discussion on non-Steiner Derek Jeter game used jerseys. The jerseys at hand were properly tagged but had no Steiner paperwork.

I checked today on the Redskins jerseys that Comcast had and there were Redskins letters with those particular jerseys.

With all that said, I have taken a different approach to Red Sox jerseys. There are so many legit looking Red Sox jerseys on the market without Steiner paperwork, that I feel comfortable purchasing those.

Bottomline is these exclusive "team" deals are only as good as the overall control they keep on the supply of game used jerseys.

allstarsplus
12-29-2008, 03:02 PM
what happens even if you get official paperwork but the jersey/equipment doesn't photo match?

Look at the problem with Favre jerseys. If there are photo match problems, then the integrity of the whole system is called into question.

One of the problems with football jerseys is some players change jerseys at halftime so the LOAs should specify if it was worn for the whole game, 1st half, 2nd half, etc.

kingjammy24
12-29-2008, 05:34 PM
again, i think the general idea of collectors demanding team paperwork, on items where exclusive team deals exist, entirely depends on the controls and track records of these teams/companies. as andrew lang stated, if you've got something as porous as the steiner/red sox deal, then why put much faith in a purportedly "exclusive" deal? if i can get numerous legit red sox gamers, from legal, legit sources, then steiner does not have an exclusive deal. they ought to stop bandying about the word in some effort put themselves forth as the only legit source when the reality is they aren't.
conversely, if a firm shows itself to have airtight controls and a stellar track record, then sure i'd probably say it's in the collectors best interests to confine themselves to such paperwork. sure jerseys will always escape but why bother with those shirts? why even take that 1% chance?

a few here have said that the shirt will, or won't, stand on its own and any paperwork is entirely meaningless. personally, i'm not so cocksure that i think i could always distinguish a washed-several-times-over game-issue and a gamer. i don't know, for example, what's going on over in that red sox clubhouse but 2005-2007 ortiz shirts flew out of there like LOAs out of lampson's typewriter. they were all properly tagged, properly numbered, properly sized, etc. yet ortiz couldn've have possibly worn all of them. photos of these shirts don't seem to show any red flags. of course, they came with no paperwork. were they just shirts ordered by ortiz' minions or some clubhouse staffer gone awol? did they sneak out of the majestic factory? who knows. i'd challenge warren or george to examine any of those ortiz shirts and conclusively say whether or not they were worn by ortiz. and i think that's the point here. if the shirts had come with iron-clad team paperwork, handled by a firm like meigray, then at least collectors would know the shirts genuinely came out of the red sox clubhouse.

if i ran such a firm, i believe the best system would be as follows:

1) review the first jersey order sheets at the start of the season
2) assign unique ID numbers to each jersey on the order sheets, even before they've been delivered
3) enter these IDs into a database
4) when the jerseys are delivered to the team, sew/glue on hard-to-counterfeit tags that feature these unique IDs. check off each unique ID
from the order sheet to what's actually been delivered. account for any discrepancies.
5) before each game, have the equipment manager disclose specifically which uniquely ID'd jerseys will be used in that game by each player
6) after the game, pick up the jerseys directly from the locker room and again each ID. change the status in the database from "issued" to "worn" and record the date/game/opponent. again, account for any discrepancies between what the equipment mgr said would be worn and what's found after the game.
7) take a photo of the jersey the day it becomes ready for sale, put it on the LOA.
8) make the database publically accessible.

i noticed the JO system seems to tag shirts after the game. why not pre-tag them as meigray does? that way, IF a shirt escapes the locker room at least it'll be tagged with a unique ID and checking the database will reveal some facts about it. pre-tag these things as soon as they're delivered so players can't pull switches and these things won't leave out the back untagged.

rudy.

MichaelofSF
12-29-2008, 06:04 PM
if i ran such a firm, i believe the best system would be as follows:

1) review the first jersey order sheets at the start of the season
2) assign unique ID numbers to each jersey on the order sheets, even before they've been delivered
3) enter these IDs into a database
4) when the jerseys are delivered to the team, sew/glue on hard-to-counterfeit tags that feature these unique IDs. check off each unique ID
from the order sheet to what's actually been delivered. account for any discrepancies.
5) before each game, have the equipment manager disclose specifically which uniquely ID'd jerseys will be used in that game by each player
6) after the game, pick up the jerseys directly from the locker room and again each ID. change the status in the database from "issued" to "worn" and record the date/game/opponent. again, account for any discrepancies between what the equipment mgr said would be worn and what's found after the game.
7) take a photo of the jersey the day it becomes ready for sale, put it on the LOA.
8) make the database publically accessible.

i noticed the JO system seems to tag shirts after the game. why not pre-tag them as meigray does? that way, IF a shirt escapes the locker room at least it'll be tagged with a unique ID and checking the database will reveal some facts about it. pre-tag these things as soon as they're delivered so players can't pull switches and these things won't leave out the back untagged.

rudy.

Sounds like a plan Rudy, that is what I would be 100% for! Would leave little room for all of the bad jerseys

kingjammy24
12-29-2008, 06:19 PM
Sounds like a plan Rudy, that is what I would be 100% for! Would leave little room for all of the bad jerseys

on the eve of his NBA deal, i asked barry how his system deals with athletes taking their own shirts, even to the point, for example, where they'd remove the shirt after the game and toss it into the crowd. barry said all of the shirts are pre-tagged and entered into the database before even being put into the player's lockers so, in the event that a player would take his own shirt and perhaps toss it into the crowd, then at a minimum that shirt would still have a unique that could then be conclusively confirmed by meigray as to when it was issued for game play, etc.

if you really put some thought into this, you could make things very airtight even in the face of player shenanigans. if you record, for example, jersey #145 being placed into jamarcus russell's locker for a game on 12/12 and then after the game you go to collect the jersey and russell gives you an untagged shirt or one with a different ID, then you know something's gone wrong and can at least try to reconcile things. i just don't believe post-tagging is the way to go. way too many loopholes. every shirt should be assigned a unique ID on the order sheet and then physically tagged upon delivery to the team and those unique IDs ought to go into a database where they can then be tracked each and every step of the way from order to delivery to game issuance to game play, like a FedEx package.

if a shirt disappears anywhere along the way, then you'd notice the absence in the database because it was assigned a unique ID on the order sheet itself. what if a shirt is taken prior to game issuance? the post-tagging system would completely fail. with my system, if it was taken prior to game issuance, then you'd notice a missing ID in the database and could even flag it as "missing/stolen".

what if russell tosses his shirt into the crowd? woopsie, the post-tagging system fails again. someone catches it, tries to sell it, and because it has no tag JO Sports says it's not legit when in fact it is. if it was pre-tagged, you could still then record that specific jersey as having been tossed into the crowd after that specific game and mark it as "game used".

my prediction? noone will take my suggestions.

rudy.

allstarsplus
12-29-2008, 07:27 PM
i just don't believe post-tagging is the way to go. way too many loopholes. every shirt should be assigned a unique ID on the order sheet and then physically tagged upon delivery to the team and those unique IDs ought to go into a database where they can then be tracked each and every step of the way from order to delivery to game issuance to game play, like a FedEx package.


my prediction? noone will take my suggestions.

rudy.

Rudy - Great ideas and I for one like your suggestions!!!

I like the pre-tag idea along with a final exit #'d hologram where the exit hologram would show game of last use.

The MLB system is nice with a 3rd party hologram but it is a hologram that is essentially a date of last use then it is always guesswork when it was 1st used.

Your Fedex analogy is actually a great idea especially if the pre-tag was actually a barcoded strip it would be easy to do.

A more expensive system would be dugout based electronic transponders similar to those you get at toll booths for smart tags where you don't have to stop at the toll booth as it reads your electronic transponder as you pass by. The only problem I would see with that is the cost and whether the electronic tag built into the jersey could stand up to the rigors of the washer and dryer.

indyred
12-29-2008, 10:09 PM
Pretty sure most of teams JO Sports works with the team puts the game date tag in the jersey before the game. I know for the Redskins it seems like they do. Look real close on the bottom right of jerseys of Portis, Campbell, Cooley....Like in this photo of Cooley.
http://uspresswire.com/image/2359201

kingjammy24
12-29-2008, 10:46 PM
Pretty sure most of teams JO Sports works with the team puts the game date tag in the jersey before the game. I know for the Redskins it seems like they do. Look real close on the bottom right of jerseys of Portis, Campbell, Cooley....Like in this photo of Cooley.
http://uspresswire.com/image/2359201

how is this possible if some jerseys have a single thermopatch that states the jersey was used for multiple games? wouldn't you only know it was used for multiple games after the fact? how could you put a thermopatch on a jersey with "thru" on it before the player was about to play 3 or 4 games? what do you do..hope to hell the player doesn't become injured in the first game thus rendering the thermopatch false or hope this (see front of jersey) doesn't happen in the first game?:

http://www.josportsco.com/view_product.asp?ProductID=921

"In addition, all the Raider jerseys will have a “ThermoPatch” placed on the inside of every jersey which indicates the player and the game (or games) in which the jersey was used. When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage."

rudy.

kingjammy24
12-29-2008, 11:30 PM
"When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage."

if these tags are applied after the games and each jersey is only tagged once, how then does someone keep track of whether a jersey was used in multiple games?

thus far, i haven't seen a system on the market that beats meigrays'. meigray pre-tags those things before they even hit the locker room with unique IDs. from that point, everything can be tracked. if the jersey is lifted from the locker room before it's even used, it can be tracked. if it's thrown into the stands in the middle of a game, it can be tracked before the game even ends. barry sells hockey jerseys where he can tell you not only what game it was used in but what period (if applicable). i don't understand why, if someone doesn't have a superior system, they don't just don't adopt meigrays'. there's a great system out there and yet people seem to ignore it and continue tinkering with inferior ideas. why? it's like edison's come up with the lightbulb and years after people keep announcing they've just devised out a new torch.

andrew:

the barcode idea is great in that it removes the possibility of human error in recording/transcribing the unique IDs. however, if these are going into football jerseys, there's the risk of tearing or defacing the barcode, which would render it useless. the bar code would need to stay perfectly intact to be readable. if an alpha-numeric code is defaced, a person could probably still make out what the code was. the transponders would probably face similar concerns over durability.

rudy.

indyred
12-29-2008, 11:42 PM
how is this possible if some jerseys have a single thermopatch that states the jersey was used for multiple games? wouldn't you only know it was used for multiple games after the fact? how could you put a thermopatch on a jersey with "thru" on it before the player was about to play 3 or 4 games? what do you do..hope to hell the player doesn't become injured in the first game thus rendering the thermopatch false or hope this (see front of jersey) doesn't happen in the first game?:

http://www.josportsco.com/view_product.asp?ProductID=921

"In addition, all the Raider jerseys will have a “ThermoPatch” placed on the inside of every jersey which indicates the player and the game (or games) in which the jersey was used. When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage."

rudy.

I don't think the Redskins jerseys are used in multiple games. They have the tags in them before the game, it's easy to see the tag in pictures of the marketed guys jerseys from certain games.

Have no idea how the thru games tag works. But what would be so bad if the jersey game date patch thru is put on before the first game you know he is playing in. He gets hurt and doesn't suit up the next game. Wouldn't be that hard to figure out he used it in the first game and oviously didn't in the second game. Like how Meigray tags the jersey before it is used and you can look up the dates when each set was worn. Doesn't mean the player played in all those games. Just have to look up those games box scores and see what games the player was in. Some jerseys may have been used in all games that set, some only one.
Maybe Jo Sports will do a population report type thing on the thru game jerseys. Where you can look up and see when exactly it was worn or when player had 2 jerseys in a set ect.

kingjammy24
12-30-2008, 12:34 AM
"But what would be so bad if the jersey game date patch thru is put on before the first game you know he is playing in. He gets hurt and doesn't suit up the next game. Wouldn't be that hard to figure out he used it in the first game and oviously didn't in the second game."

1) this isn't a matter of what's hard to figure out. it's a matter of what the tag states. chris stated "When a jersey was used for multiple games the patch will use the term “thru” to indicate multiple game usage". why should i have to figure anything out when JO Sports is supposed to be on the case? this isn't rocket science. they're tracking the things and yet i have to play detective on each shirt and see if the tag makes sense?

2) if the jersey was ripped beyond repair, as the jamarcus russell shirt i linked to was, then there's no way of knowing anything even from boxscores. a boxscore doesn't tell you when a jersey was ripped and put out of commission.

3) jerseys are kept, traded, and sold for decades. in 2040, someone acquires a 2007 redskins shirt that states it was worn in multiple games and they've got to go look up the boxscore 33 years after the fact?

this is nonsensical. why not simply use a unique ID and record the games in a database like anyone living in the 21st century would? this idea of putting a "worn in multiple games" tag in a jersey BEFORE it was actually worn in multiple games is ludicrous. it completely flies in the face of common sense.

"Like how Meigray tags the jersey before it is used and you can look up the dates when each set was worn. Doesn't mean the player played in all those games. Just have to look up those games box scores and see what games the player was in. Some jerseys may have been used in all games that set, some only one."

meigray tags them with IDs, not dates, not specific games. an ID can correlate to anything. a single ID can correlate to various pieces of different information. that's the beauty of it. a date can only correlate to a date.

"Maybe Jo Sports will do a population report type thing on the thru game jerseys. Where you can look up and see when exactly it was worn or when player had 2 jerseys in a set ect."

why make it so unnecessarily complicated? pre-tag the jerseys with predictions of what games we think they might be worn in and then we can do a population report afterwards and collectors can look up boxscores 10 years after the fact and put all the pieces together for themselves. brilliant. very, very efficient system. why would anyone do this when there's a clean, simple, FedEx-like system they could use instead? each one is pre-tagged with a unique ID and as it moves through the process from order to delivery to issuance to use, you simply record each event in a public database. no need for collectors to do any work at all. when they get a jersey, they can go to the website, type in the unique ID, see when it was ordered, delivered, issued and exactly what games it was used in and print out the results for a hard copy. if you've got a poor system and a good system, why choose the poor system?

anyway, we can talk about how we think it works all day long but i guess chris cavalier will have to come on and fill in the details. pre-tagging jerseys with "predicted" games they might be used in has honestly got to be one of the most bizarre, illogical ideas i've heard. if that's what's going on, then i'd rather have them post-tagged with the truth, rather than pre-tagged with predictions and left for collectors to piece together via boxscores and population reports.

rudy.

indyred
12-30-2008, 01:42 AM
Does anyone own one of these thru tag jerseys? I've only seen Redskins and Bears jerseys that JO has sold. They just have the game that it was used in tag and don't use the thru tag. So their is no issue of what game it was used in.
I do know JO puts own serial hologram on the game date tag and both the JO COA and team COA state when the jersey was worn.
I wonder if the thru tag jerseys letters say the exact game dates the jersey was used. This would clear up any issues of if the jersey was just used one, twice ect. So you don't have to figure out a thing on your own. Or in cases where a jersey is torn up the COA says worn in the first half of whatever game. Maybe they should just label jerseys with set 1, set 2 ect and clear up the thru problem, where people will think it automaticaly means it was worn in the thru game on the tag.

No question we all would like to see some Fed Ex system. Maybe some day there will be a simple system in place. Where tamper proof tags are scanned and a accurate data base is on the net with all records of when each jersey was in play. I'm sure we would still find problems in that chain as well. Isn't the prova tag like that, where it is some kind of micro chip? Never owned a jersey from them. MLB has the data base and we all know how well that thing works.

I'm done with thru tag talk, I guess I could really care less about the term. I can see where it makes things difficult. Maybe this will spark some better wording on tags.

G1X
12-30-2008, 01:59 AM
I think that I may have posted this before, but I will do so again as it is relevant to this topic. In 2006 and 2007, the Washington Redskins picked 16 players each year as their "marquee" players (Portis, Samuels, Cooley, etc.) who wore a new jersey each game. These jerseys are tagged and coded as mentioned in a previous post. The rest of the players were not wearing a new jersey each week, and to my knowledge, the jerseys of these "common" players are not tagged and coded.

In the case where I made a small bulk buy from the team's front office in March 2008 that consisted of their "throwback" helmets from 2002 and 2003 plus a small number of jerseys from 2004 through 2006, I did not request any paperwork. I also did not request any paperwork when I made a small bulk buy from the Eagles' front office in December 2006 (consisting mostly of jerseys from the 2005 season).

In both purchases, there were only a couple of star players involved. Since most of my customers do not demand paperwork, I saw no need to pursue the issue. From my observations as both a collector and dealer, most football uniform collectors seem to not be concerned with paperwork for "common" players as they trust their own knowledge and expertise.

As a dealer, I avoid selling super star jerseys for a variety of reasons. However, if it was my marketing strategy to pursue star players from NFL teams, I would insist on team paperwork for those jerseys for obvious reasons.

My point is that legitimate stuff gets out without paperwork, and if the price is right, those jerseys will sell. It all depends on each collector's comfort level. For those collectors who don't feel comfortable, they can pay the higher price for the piece of paper and peace of mind.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL jerseys

beavisrules
12-30-2008, 09:57 AM
There are some great posts and ideas in this thread. I think that for star players, there should be a more definitive tagging/tracking system, and a lot of the ideas noted in here make sense. The pre-use tagging is a great idea that Meigray implemented. I think the fact that the star players have 16 jerseys (or more) a year is absolutely ridiculous, but that's just my opinion, and not relevant to this thread.

Since I collect more commons than superstars, I agree with Mark that typically I could care less if it comes with paperwork, because the amount of work it would take to fake a common is cost-prohibitive in most cases. If it comes with paperwork, great, a bonus; but not required from my standpoint with rare exception.

However, to be honest, I wish all jerseys (commons included) did simply have a tag sewn in when team issued just like Meigray does. The Bucs equipment manager was in another thread saying all jerseys ordered were carefully inventoried and accounted for. Great - then slap a tag on each jersey, enter it in a basic database, and there you go - a fairly decent system for all in even this basic of form if nothing else.

And let me give you an example of when common tagging is very important (if possible) - commons who become significant stars. I'll give examples - Bertrand Berry, Tony Romo, and any other low draft picks or undrafted free agents who end up doing well. Coming into the NFL, neither of these guys were given much thought - then, the right opportunity came along, and they are now well known players who's jerseys command a premium. However, their early jerseys were viewed essentially as relative commons prior to this, and are very few and far between - tagging on those jerseys would have been ideal to preserve the scarcity of these early jerseys (they weren't numbering 16 jerseys per year initially, that's for sure).

Just my two cents.

jppopma
12-30-2008, 01:34 PM
Rudy,

I have seen some universities that will use the barcoding to keep track of their inventory. For example, some of the Michigan State jerseys that I have include a thick plastic barcode sticker on the inner tail. I grabbed one of the jerseys and see that it has the barcode as well as a printed inventory number on it. While it looks to have some wear and tear on the barcode, my guess is that it would still work if scanned.

Maybe some of these schools would be able to shed a little better light on their tagging methods and what problems they may have encountered with barcoding.

Keep it up man,

John

josportsco
01-01-2009, 02:12 PM
First of all I want to thank everyone for the posts. This is a very good post and informative. As for J.O. Sports, Inc. we deal strictly in modern football so this post I am making is in regards to modern football. Let me address the identification issue. We use a ThermoPatch that is heat pressed into the inside tail of the jerseys. This ThermoPatch is nearly impossible to remove. On the ThermoPatch we supply the buyer with as much information about the particular jersey: Name of player, date(s) worn, opponent, web address. Also supplied is the hologram which matches the hologram on the COA. This is an identification process we supply on all of our jerseys that we obtain through team and/or players. I have read Rudy’s post regarding his identification ideas and it is a great idea. Although to process the idea you have to have total team support from top to bottom and the man power to support. Talking and dealing with the teams, this is a process is difficult to implement to every team we deal with. As for the Redskins, they have also implemented the ThermoPatch process. They apply the patch to all of their jerseys prior to use. Of note: we do have a database identifying every jersey we have certified and patched.
Anyway, to get back on topic regarding team paperwork. I think what Chris is mostly talking about is should collectors purchase modern game worn football jerseys with team paperwork? Although there have been several different topics regarding the purchase of jerseys with team paperwork. You can dispute either way. What the topic is directed more towards the star players. As a collector you should feel more secure in the purchase of an Adrian Peterson with Vikings/JO paperwork rather than the one’s in auction house that supply their own or third party paperwork. I have personally seen at least 4 Peterson’s within the last 2 years offered for sale or auction that was accompanied without any or third party paperwork. So the question is would you feel more secure purchasing those 4 at around $1000-$1500 or one for $5000+ with Vikings paperwork? Recently GUU/JO Sports have secured a team deal with the Raiders. With that being said we offer guys like McFadden down to R. Brown all are accompanied with Raiders-GUU/JO Sports paperwork with identifiers and unwashed. Although I have not seen any Raiders merchandise in the open market ask yourself: If you are offered a McFadden via personal deal or auction without the Raiders-GUU/JO Sports paperwork and identifiers would you feel comfortable in the purchase? This brings us to the next issue. How do jerseys make it to the open market? Are jerseys sold out of the “back door”? Some may be. Do players take their jerseys and market them? Yes some do. With this being said I can only answer for josportsco. I will break it down per team. Vikings/ Bears/ Raiders- WE ARE EXCLUSIVE. The teams do have the right to hold some (very minimal) inventory to sell through their charity, community, etc. This is why you will see 1 Peterson possibly make it to NFL Auctions, 1 Russell make it to their charity etc. Redskins- We are allotted X amount of jerseys and they hold the right to sell jerseys via charity and any other sources they chose. We have built the cooperation with our teams to be involved in the jersey ordering. WE KNOW EXACTLY HOW MANY JERSEYS ARE ORDERED PER PLAYER FOR VAROIUS TEAMS. So now ask yourself again: Would you feel comfortable in the purchase of a Peterson or McFadden without the team paperwork? Let’s move to the player portion. Yes, some players take their jerseys and market them. I think our company answers that question in itself. We have done a deal with Westbrook, McNabb, Holmes etc. BUT josportsco will not do a player deal without a COA signed by that particular player. The way the market is today josportsco has changed its buying and selling habits. We rarely purchase or sell anything without the team or player paperwork. We try to photo match everything and purchase unwashed when we can. Mark Hayne mentioned bulk buys without team paperwork. I personally would feel comfortable in purchasing from Mark but if josportsco is to purchase equipment from the teams we require the team paperwork to accompany the merchandise to help the security of the buyer especially if it is washed.
As for the pricing what we are trying to build is a source for the collector to obtain unquestionable merchandise for their favorite team or player. These deals are not cheap!! There for we have to offer such merchandise at said prices. It is funny to me that collectors in one breath complain about bogus merchandise then in the same breath complain that when you find good merchandise the prices are too high. We continue to keep our price integrity. We have collectors that are appreciative that we can supply them with these modern relics and understand the market and hobby and have no problem spending the money that true game worn jerseys should command. I commend GUU and the members that share their information. I hope this helps and can always be reached at jarrod@josportsco.com (jarrod@josportsco.com)

byergo
01-01-2009, 03:40 PM
From a cursory glance the luxury of getting an item with team paperwork is a VERY expensive proposition. One that certainly will leave almost 100% of buyers financially buried into an item where they will not only never sell for a profit, but likely take a huge financial beating should they decide to part with the item later. Just my opinion...

josportsco
01-01-2009, 04:15 PM
Opinion appreciated. You must be referring to 95% of sports memorabilia. Barring a player making a significant impact or HOF in their sport, the return for any merchandise in today’s questionable market can be limited especially without team paperwork. Remember the major point of this thread is merchandise with team paperwork in today’s market. An Urlacher with team paperwork may not be for you but it sure is for the guy I met at the Chicago show that had me look at an Urlacher that had several issues and was purchased out of auction as game used and it definitely was not used. Should have seen his face when he was having Urlacher sign it as a used jersey and was told it was not worn by him. I’m sure someone will come on and post that they have heard tons of athletes saying they own every jersey they wore so this post is directed towards this particular instance only.

wideright
01-04-2009, 07:11 PM
Opinion appreciated. You must be referring to 95% of sports memorabilia. Barring a player making a significant impact or HOF in their sport, the return for any merchandise in today’s questionable market can be limited especially without team paperwork. Remember the major point of this thread is merchandise with team paperwork in today’s market. An Urlacher with team paperwork may not be for you but it sure is for the guy I met at the Chicago show that had me look at an Urlacher that had several issues and was purchased out of auction as game used and it definitely was not used. Should have seen his face when he was having Urlacher sign it as a used jersey and was told it was not worn by him. I’m sure someone will come on and post that they have heard tons of athletes saying they own every jersey they wore so this post is directed towards this particular instance only.

I'm sorry, but being a novice game-used collector this is just scary and intimidating. This instance plus the Favre story are enough to make me not want to get into this market. Is anyone working on some sort of system to chart each jersey an athlete wears and tag it somehow so that it truly makes it GU? Isn't this a big enough multi-million dollar fraud operation that major league sports associations would create a new system to monitor and track items?