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lambertisgod58
12-16-2008, 03:51 AM
I found this information the other day. I know some of us already know, but this is coming directly from Lambert's official website. Thought I'd pass it on. Here the link regarding his game used items.



http://www.lambert58.com/

34swtns
12-16-2008, 07:14 AM
Fascinating. Thanks for sharing that.
If more former players took an interest in this hobby there might be fewer fraudulant items sold.

jhunt28
12-16-2008, 10:30 AM
"there is an exact reason for this-which may be disclosed at some point in the future"...Now I'm intrigued?? Did he wear some kind of armour under his long sleeves to knock people out??? Now I need to do some research...

Nathan
12-16-2008, 11:24 AM
I believe the Lambert jersey was no good from the research and reasons given here. The fact that Jack Lambert says it's no good doesn't really enter into the equation.

The reason I say this is because it's not uncommon for a player to flat-out lie about his old gear. Although Barry Meisel can tell the story better than I can, Wayne Gretzky came out a few years back and made the statement that he owned everything he ever wore and therefore anything on the market was a fake. Obviously that's a mile from the truth. Bobby Orr came out publicly (on a national broadcast, I believe) and said that a jersey of his that was at Classic Auctions was no good because "there's no way we would have worn those in the Cup Finals". Never mind that it was photomatched a bunch of different ways....there are a lot of people that put more stock into what a player says and not enough into what someone who actually is an expert in the field says.

mvandor
12-16-2008, 12:03 PM
I believe the Lambert jersey was no good from the research and reasons given here. The fact that Jack Lambert says it's no good doesn't really enter into the equation.

The reason I say this is because it's not uncommon for a player to flat-out lie about his old gear. Although Barry Meisel can tell the story better than I can, Wayne Gretzky came out a few years back and made the statement that he owned everything he ever wore and therefore anything on the market was a fake. Obviously that's a mile from the truth. Bobby Orr came out publicly (on a national broadcast, I believe) and said that a jersey of his that was at Classic Auctions was no good because "there's no way we would have worn those in the Cup Finals". Never mind that it was photomatched a bunch of different ways....there are a lot of people that put more stock into what a player says and not enough into what someone who actually is an expert in the field says.

This seems pretty incontovertible to me. Lambert himself would certainly know something as basic as did he EVER wear short sleeves.

I certainly would take his word over Lou Lampson's absent photo proof to the contrary.

And I wish all major athletes took more of an interest in the hobby and keeping it clean.

Canseco44
12-16-2008, 12:19 PM
I have thought about this exact topic alot. I know this is not comparing apples to apples, but I tried to think back to my High School football days(just 11 years ago) and I am not sure if I had the jersey I wore right in front of me, that I could tell you it was for sure the one I wore. That even goes for my basketball jerseys. Now can you imagine 30 years ago! I am not saying he wouldn't remember the sleeve length, I could probably do that, but could an athlete tell, for sure, it was there game jersey from 30 years ago. I would be surprised if any athlete was into their game jersey that much. I am not doubting Jack Lambert, but just athletes overall on this subject. I have a pair of Canseco pants that I got from him that he signed Expo Gamers. They are a pair of Blue Jay gamers that are even labeled 1998 in the waistline. He just signed them that way because of the blue and red colors on the stripes. He didn't even know how to read the waist band coding. I would personally not put a lot of faith into what a pro athlete remembers about there equipment.

Todd Ricks

kingjammy24
12-16-2008, 12:59 PM
i think the issue of athlete provenance entirely depends on the particular athlete. they're no different than the rest of the populace in that some of them have great memories and some not so great. some of them are as honest as the day is long and some are downright dishonest. i don't think blanket logic ought to be applied here to say that that all athletes are unreliable or that all athlete provenance is a guarantee. i think it's subjective. unfortunately, in this hobby, that's pretty much what happens. athlete provenance is all treated the same, as if all athletes are the same type of person. it's assumed that if an athlete says it's game worn then it is. there's no distinction of who actually made the comment and whether that specific athlete is reliable or not.

i think the other part that needs to be individually evaluated is the specific claim being made. i think some claims would be realistic for an athlete to be able to make, such as lambert simply knowing whether he wore short sleeves or not, and others, such as hank aaron positively identifying a specific bat used to hit a specific home run in one specific game 34 years after an equipment manager gave it away, would be highly unrealistic. lambert's claim is pretty broad and simple. aaron's claim, on the other hand, is so specific as to be completely absurd.

i think the interesting part in the lambert article is the absolute refusal of the auction house to err on the side of caution and listen to lambert and remove the jersey until more research could be done. anyone know what house it was? looks like an old GFC background to me.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=40892

https://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=8656

rudy.

Canseco44
12-16-2008, 01:53 PM
Well said Rudy. I agree with you on it being a case to case basis. The fact is, to most of the athletes, it is just a job they do and they are not worried about what the strip tag says or what patch is applied to the sleeve. Then again, there are probably some athletes that do know about that stuff.

Todd Ricks

kingjammy24
12-16-2008, 02:07 PM
Well said Rudy. I agree with you on it being a case to case basis. The fact is, to most of the athletes, it is just a job they do and they are not worried about what the strip tag says or what patch is applied to the sleeve. Then again, there are probably some athletes that do know about that stuff.

Todd Ricks

frankly, i think if you managed to get an honest player with a good memory, they'd be able to tell you some incredible pieces of insight about some of their items. sure canseco didn't know the difference between a pair of expos pants and jays pants but i'm guessing he didn't much care about his pants. he'd probably be able to give some good insight into how he specifically scored his bat handles though. i think it depends on how personal the item was to the athlete. i think ripken could probably talk for hours about his gloves or ted williams could discuss his bats for days on end. if you look at jerseys, some athletes take a laundry list of customizations indicating they're very particular about their shirts while others wear completely stock shirts indicating that they're likely not as particular. i've seen some athlete interviews where the players discussed certain items and some of the insight was incredible.

plus it seems like in this day and age items are more disposable than they were in the past. many more items are being collected and sold than in the past so the players aren't with their items for as long as they used to be.

i guess what i'm saying in all of this is that there are many variables in the whole "athlete provenance" equation and depending on those variables, athlete provenance can either be an incredible goldmine or a big letdown.

rudy.

BarryMeisel
12-16-2008, 03:35 PM
Hi everybody,

This is a good topic, and I think it is important to remember that context is important here.

Nathan is correct, Wayne Gretzky in a newspaper story years ago was quoted as casting doubt on all his game-worn jerseys in the hobby. Now we have photo-matched six of his game-worn Oilers jerseys, including one from the 1988 Stanley Cup Finals, so we know he was not correct.

But we believe we understood the context of what Gretzky was saying. (Since we were not speaking to him directly, we can't say for certain). We believe he was trying to warn collectors away from the flood of fakes. And while we applaud that, we believe Gretzky should have not made such a blanket statement.

Regards, Barry

Canseco44
12-16-2008, 03:54 PM
I found two different photos of Lambert wearing jerseys without sleeves. Evidently he can't remember back to 1971. They are under getty images 81248287 & 81248287

You all should get a laugh out of this, but my wasn't he a handsome young man! LOL!

kingjammy24
12-16-2008, 04:37 PM
I found two different photos of Lambert wearing jerseys without sleeves. Evidently he can't remember back to 1971. They are under getty images 81248287 & 81248287

You all should get a laugh out of this, but my wasn't he a handsome young man! LOL!

from lambert's website, they said "we informed the auction house that Jack never, EVER wore short sleeves during any NFL game". the photo above (it's only one as both of the image numbers are the same) is from lambert during his college tenure. lambert entered the NFL in 1974.

had the NFL not come calling, jack could've been a leading man in hollywood. the other actors probably would've called him a prettyboy though.

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/1/sillyta7.jpg

rudy.

Canseco44
12-16-2008, 04:48 PM
Yeah, I realize that. I was trying to throw some humor in there. The other photo was 81248286. Evidently you didn't sense my sarcasm in my last post. I did see a couple of photos with Jack wearing his Game Warden uniform. I did not know he was ever a game warden. But, if you look at the uniform he is wearing, you guessed it, LONG sleeve. LOL Anyways, I did notice the pics were from his college days, I was just trying to be a wise guy. From what I have seen, I would have to agree ith Jack. I have never seen a photo of him wearing short sleeve. There is even one photo on getty's showing Jack at a camp in the heat of summer wearing his long sleeve jersey.

Thanks, Todd Ricks

mvandor
12-16-2008, 05:26 PM
I found two different photos of Lambert wearing jerseys without sleeves. Evidently he can't remember back to 1971. They are under getty images 81248287 & 81248287

You all should get a laugh out of this, but my wasn't he a handsome young man! LOL!

Don't know if your humor went over my head or not but that's him at Kent State, not Pittsburgh....

Canseco44
12-16-2008, 08:55 PM
For the third time, I realize the pics of him off Getty are while he was at Kent. That was part of the humor, that I had to go back that far to find a photo of him wearing short sleeves. Please, no one pic it apart anymore. Please read all previous posts before posting comments.

Todd

mvandor
12-16-2008, 09:00 PM
For the third time, I realize the pics of him off Getty are while he was at Kent. That was part of the humor, that I had to go back that far to find a photo of him wearing short sleeves. Please, no one pic it apart anymore. Please read all previous posts before posting comments.

Todd

Chill, my post crossed with the other one, when it posted I saw someone else had already said it and you'd responded.

Dry wit, I get it.

Canseco44
12-16-2008, 10:21 PM
No problem mvandor, I am just a really funny guy and I can't handle someone not laughing(more humor). I just thought with all the hatin' going on in other threads, I would take a stab at humor. Anyways, back to the original topic of this thread, I would have to agree with ol' Jack on this one. It appears he NEVER wore short sleeves!

Todd Ricks

mfsquirrelmaster
12-17-2008, 12:49 AM
I'm sure there is a reason why Lambert always wore sleeves and he would remember that. Maybe he didn't like the way they fit. Who knows. Gretzky may believe he has all of his gamers, but who knows what happened when they were in the possession of the equipment manager or other team employees.

kingjammy24
12-17-2008, 02:20 AM
stupid me, i just realized the lambert jersey is the one that just sold in the mastro auction for $3500:

http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=88717&LastLotListing=Lot%20Search%20List&CurrentRow=1

so lambert contacted them, told them the jersey wasn't good and they refused to pull it. nice. to mastro's credit they did include a stylematch (as per their announcement that all jerseys in their auction have been "painstakingly photomatched") and here's their photo/stylematch:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/9789/sillyeh1.jpg

for those who think i'm kidding, that's really it. painstaking indeed.
not sure if that million dollar advance that they paid on the football collection influenced things. anyway, i know their authenticators are a big secret and don't want to be associated with their work and mastro apparently doesn't want to be associated with them, but one look at that LOA they posted and the unique prose screams sweet lou lampson. in the very first paragraph lou launches one into the grandstands and clears the bases:

"Lambert was a "long sleeve" guy for the majority of his career, save for perhaps the final year ('84) or two ('83). Colleagues have suggested that pictures exist from very late career of Lambert with short sleeves, and, but the point here is that the sleeves were cut and hemmed, probably after game use for potential use in off season mini camps, informal workouts, and even training camp"

wow. did those suggestive colleagues manage to produce even a single pic or did they just keep it all to suggestions? i can't do even do lou's letters justice. reading them brings me almost as much joy as watching tina fey do sarah palin. anyway, the LOA is posted. lou, in typical lampson fashion, states it's not an ideal lambert, but "acceptable nonetheless". (isn't everything?). anyway, there's no way that LOA is anyone but lampson so i guess now we know who mastro uses and it's not surprising they refuse to put his name on the items. i imagine lou doesn't even want to be associated with his work anymore.

rudy.

kingjammy24
12-17-2008, 02:23 AM
is it the same lambert that's been pinging around the hobby from broadway rick to vintage to GFC?

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?p=40892

rudy.

aeneas01
12-17-2008, 06:19 AM
heck, mears might have graded this thing out at an a10 given a) the lack of game photo evidence b) the fact that other steelers players were known to have worn short sleeves and c) it's clear lambert sported short sleeves while at kent. on the other hand mears might have also deducted a point or two for excessive wear - i mean what collector wants to see repairs made to a jersey?

btw you gotta love how lampson (presumably) has massaged the lot description each time out. when it was listed at vintage, it was a game jersey and the sleeves had been chopped because of hot game time weather. when it was listed at mastro, it became a practice jersey and the sleeves had been chopped for use during "informal workouts" and the like. beautiful.

vintage authentics:
"... sleeves have been custom cut and hemmed perhaps in anticipation of a warm weather game."

mastro:
"...sleeves were cut and hemmed, probably after game use for potential use in off season mini camps, informal workouts, and even training camp."

the level of enthusiasm over the jersey's game use was also tempered by the time it hit mastro:

vintage authentics:
"Overall the game use evidence is solid and consistent throughout leading this quality gamer to a final high authentic grade of 9 - as nice a Lambert as you'll find."

mastro:
"The wear appears consistent and solid but not great... It could have a lot more wear, but it is his final season when he only played eight games... an acceptable representation from a final season."

wow from a "high authentic grade of 9" to an "acceptable representation"? good grief.


to mastro's credit they did include a stylematch (as per their announcement that all jerseys in their auction have been "painstakingly photomatched") and here's their photo/stylematch... for those who think i'm kidding, that's really it. painstaking indeed.

you'll probably get a kick out of this - mastro's "stylematch" photo that you posted was actually cropped to, imo, imply that the sleeves might be short. here's the full, uncropped photo - i think it paints a different picture as far as the sleeves are concerned. btw the photo is from the last game of the steelers' 1983 season, a playoff game in which the steelers were routed by the raiders. following the uncropped photo i've included two other photos from that game - clearly not a short sleeved shirt. the last two photos show lambert in the final game of his career, a playoff loss to the fins to end the 1984 season - another long sleeved jersey, go figure...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jl01.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jl03.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jl02.jpg


from the final game of lambert's career:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jl04.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jl05.jpg

.....

aeneas01
12-17-2008, 06:35 AM
when i mentioned that the mastro "stylematch" photo had been cropped, i may not have been clear. the photo below shows how much of the original photo was excluded from the mastro lot description, everything below the red line. mysteriously the top, left and right edges of the original photo were not cropped, just the bottom. innocent occurrence? you be the judge...


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/cropped.jpg

...

beantown
12-17-2008, 06:42 AM
As I've previously stated before on this forum, if Lambert was wearing a short sleeve jersey that was originally a long sleeve jersey, it would show remnants of the elbow pad stitching into the sleeve stripes...

aeneas01
12-17-2008, 07:41 AM
As I've previously stated before on this forum, if Lambert was wearing a short sleeve jersey that was originally a long sleeve jersey, it would show remnants of the elbow pad stitching into the sleeve stripes...

exactly - but according to lampson.....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/ll01.jpg

...

beantown
12-17-2008, 08:41 AM
exactly - but according to lampson.....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/ll01.jpg

...


Ok, Lou...please explain this photo of Jack Lambert from 1984?

mvandor
12-17-2008, 11:00 AM
You know, you try and give Lou and the auction houses the benefit of the doubt, but when you see auction houses refusing to pull a jersey on the actual player's say so where a clearcut issue is involved like this, mysteriously cropped pics to support an item, and obvious fantasy in item descriptions and LOA's, you really have to wonder what it takes to get a prosecution for fraud in this friggin' country anymore.

kingjammy24
12-17-2008, 01:48 PM
lambert's website says that they notified mastro last spring about a short-sleeved lambert jersey they were running at that time. according to lambert's website mastro "..cited a 'third-party authenticator' had given their blessings as they pertained to the authenticity of the Lambert jersey based upon a data base that was consistent with jerseys worn by Ted Hendricks and Earl Campbell....When we informed the auction house that Jack never, EVER wore short sleeves during any NFL game, they argued that we were incorrect...The sale of this "game used" jersey went as planned to the tune of more than $15,000...So now the same auction house has presented yet another "game used" Jack Lambert jersey for auction".

given that the photo is from the mastro auction that just ended, the post is obviously recent. last spring (spring of 2007), MEARS was still under contract with mastro. i have an email in to dave grob to find out if MEARS authenticated a short-sleeved lambert for mastro sometime around last spring.

lambert's rep seemed pretty certain even going so far as to say there's a very specific reason why lambert never wore short sleeves. yet if you look at the mastro (lampson) loa, lou's not nearly as certain, stating that lambert "perhaps" wore long sleeves. the idea that his colleagues suggested photos exist is laughable because they apparently weren't able to produce a single one of those photos. so his expert colleagues saw rare photos of lambert wearing short sleeves and not a single one of them managed to procure one of these photos? horsepuckey. any decent collector (or authenticator) would have a massive photo library and upon stumbling upon such photos of lambert wearing short sleeves would obviously add the photos to their library knowing what a huge find it is to have even a single pic showing lambert wearing short sleeves in an NFL game.

anyway, about 80% of the lampsons LOA is a defense that tries to justify all of the jerseys anomalies and inconsistencies. it's similar to when lou read robert's analysis of the blanda helmet and then spent his entire LOA countering every point. the jersey's so good that it needs to be defended vigorously. in typical lou style, there are red flags but he casts them all aside and says the jerseys is "acceptable nonetheless". i'm guessing that if mastro sold a short-sleeved lambert last spring for over $15,000 and this one sold for a paltry $3500 then apparently it wasn't acceptable to most bidders.

re: the cropping of the photo.
i suspected as much. the photo suspiciously ended right at the sleeves. golly, what could they be trying to hide? how is a photo of lambert wearing a long-sleeved shirt supposed to be a "photomatch" for a short-sleeved shirt? only in doug allen's wacky world of photomatching, where a photomatch isn't really a photomatch and many times it's not even a stylematch. painstaking!

rudy.

trsent
12-17-2008, 02:19 PM
lambert's website says that they notified mastro last spring about a short-sleeved lambert jersey they were running at that time. according to lambert's website mastro "..cited a 'third-party authenticator' had given their blessings as they pertained to the authenticity of the Lambert jersey based upon a data base that was consistent with jerseys worn by Ted Hendricks and Earl Campbell....When we informed the auction house that Jack never, EVER wore short sleeves during any NFL game, they argued that we were incorrect...The sale of this "game used" jersey went as planned to the tune of more than $15,000...So now the same auction house has presented yet another "game used" Jack Lambert jersey for auction".

given that the photo is from the mastro auction that just ended, the post is obviously recent. last spring (spring of 2007), MEARS was still under contract with mastro. i have an email in to dave grob to find out if MEARS authenticated a short-sleeved lambert for mastro sometime around last spring.

lambert's rep seemed pretty certain even going so far as to say there's a very specific reason why lambert never wore short sleeves. yet if you look at the mastro (lampson) loa, lou's not nearly as certain, stating that lambert "perhaps" wore long sleeves. the idea that his colleagues suggested photos exist is laughable because they apparently weren't able to produce a single one of those photos. so his expert colleagues saw rare photos of lambert wearing short sleeves and not a single one of them managed to procure one of these photos? horsepuckey. any decent collector (or authenticator) would have a massive photo library and upon stumbling upon such photos of lambert wearing short sleeves would obviously add the photos to their library knowing what a huge find it is to have even a single pic showing lambert wearing short sleeves in an NFL game.

anyway, about 80% of the lampsons LOA is a defense that tries to justify all of the jerseys anomalies and inconsistencies. it's similar to when lou read robert's analysis of the blanda helmet and then spent his entire LOA countering every point. the jersey's so good that it needs to be defended vigorously. in typical lou style, there are red flags but he casts them all aside and says the jerseys is "acceptable nonetheless". i'm guessing that if mastro sold a short-sleeved lambert last spring for over $15,000 and this one sold for a paltry $3500 then apparently it wasn't acceptable to most bidders.

re: the cropping of the photo.
i suspected as much. the photo suspiciously ended right at the sleeves. golly, what could they be trying to hide? how is a photo of lambert wearing a long-sleeved shirt supposed to be a "photomatch" for a short-sleeved shirt? only in doug allen's wacky world of photomatching, where a photomatch isn't really a photomatch and many times it's not even a stylematch. painstaking!

rudy.

From the MEARS forum:

The 1984 Jack Lambert Jersey Offered by Mastro

December 17 2008 at 11:03 AM Dave Grob

In response to an e-mail:

dave

did mears authenticate a short-sleeved jack lambert
steelers shirt for mastro some time around last spring?

thanks,

rudy
------------

My response:

Rudy,

How do I answer this? If I tell you that this information is available to you and any one else who wishes to be a MEARS Member, I will railed for blowing you off or assumed to be hiding something. I will answer this your question this time as it is fundamentally unfair to MEARS Members to do so in the future.

We did not look at the 1984 home jersey that appears to be of current debate. There is a Jack Lambert ROAD jersey from 1983 in the data base that had the sleeves "cut short" and left un-hemmed. 1.5 points were taken off for this and the comments for this evaluation include:

"The images we referenced were from 1983 and showed Lambert wearing long sleeves. The sleeves are trimmed with the reason and/or purpose of their shortening unknown."

As I mentioned above, please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it.

v/r
Dave

kingjammy24
12-17-2008, 03:10 PM
while mears didn't examine the recent '84 lambert jersey that is being discussed, dave's warm and friendly reply suggests that they did examine this one:

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot+Information&LotIndex=70594&LastLotListing=Lot+Search+List&CurrentRow=1

the '83 jersey shown above closed in spring of 2007 but sold for only $8,354. lambert's site references one sold by mastro in spring 2007 that sold for more than $15k. how many short-sleeved lamberts could mastro have auctioned off? anyway, apparently on the '83 mears mentioned the sleeves and deducted points for them but that info didn't seem to make its way to the description. not sure how it rated an 8.5 but there you have it. was mears the "third-party authenticator" who refused to budge when confronted by lambert's rep? it's possible given the reasoning, cited by lambert's rep, that it "matched their database" and the comparisons to irrrelevant examples that appear to be mears' hallmarks. then again, to find out for sure i'd probably have to fork over $40.

rudy.

aeneas01
12-17-2008, 09:21 PM
We did not look at the 1984 home jersey that appears to be of current debate. There is a Jack Lambert ROAD jersey from 1983 in the data base that had the sleeves "cut short" and left un-hemmed. 1.5 points were taken off for this and the comments for this evaluation include...i'm not quite sure which jerseys dave is referring to - i believe the jersey being debated is an '84 road jersey (white), not a home jersey as dave mentions. further, the '83 jersey rudy linked to (which appears to be one mears was involved with) is a home jersey - dave states that mears has an '83 road jersey in its database which, obviously, would seem to imply that the '83 home jersey sold through mastro (which rudy linked to) didn't involve mears. if this is the case then we're looking at three short sleeve lambert shirts.

as far as dave stating "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." - i just don't get it nor do i understand why responding to such a question would be "unfair" to mears members. i would think mears would be eager and willing to respond fully to any questions regarding an item thought to have been evaluated by their team - especially given mears' past relationship with mastro. but, hey, what do i know?

btw do any of you jersey experts find anything odd about the letter spacing found on the short sleeve lambert shirt being discussed? as i've mentioned before, i know zilch about jerseys but i noticed that the letters appear to be spaced much farther apart in game photos when compared to the '84 ss road jersey in quesion. photos a&b are game photos, photo c is a long sleeve road gamer sold at auction (letter spacing is consistent with game photos), and photo d shows two shots of the short sleeve '84 road shirt.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jlcomp.jpg


...

aeneas01
12-17-2008, 09:36 PM
Ok, Lou...please explain this photo of Jack Lambert from 1984?

i would like to hear the explanation as well. and while the explanations are flowing, perhaps someone can also chime in on why an old jack lambert wore a black, long sleeve jersey during the final game of his career, a sunny afternoon game in miami, florida. i mean didn't someone state that lambert's sleeves were chopped for just these sort of games...

...

beantown
12-17-2008, 10:19 PM
i'm not quite sure which jerseys dave is referring to - i believe the jersey being debated is an '84 road jersey (white), not a home jersey as dave mentions. further, the '83 jersey rudy linked to (which appears to be one mears was involved with) is a home jersey - dave states that mears has an '83 road jersey in its database which, obviously, would seem to imply that the '83 home jersey sold through mastro (which rudy linked to) didn't involve mears. if this is the case then we're looking at three short sleeve lambert shirts.

as far as dave stating "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." - i just don't get it nor do i understand why responding to such a question would be "unfair" to mears members. i would think mears would be eager and willing to respond fully to any questions regarding an item thought to have been evaluated by their team - especially given mears' past relationship with mastro. but, hey, what do i know?

btw do any of you jersey experts find anything odd about the letter spacing found on the short sleeve lambert shirt being discussed? as i've mentioned before, i know zilch about jerseys but i noticed that the letters appear to be spaced much farther apart in game photos when compared to the '84 ss road jersey in quesion. photos a&b are game photos, photo c is a long sleeve road gamer sold at auction (letter spacing is consistent with game photos), and photo d shows two shots of the short sleeve '84 road shirt.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jlcomp.jpg


...




Robert,

You claim to no "zilch" about these jerseys, but I have to disagree!

You have a very keen eye! As a Steelers collector, that is one of the first things I look at...the font on the name plate and yes, you are correct, it doesn't look right to me either.

Here are some photos from the Steelers Hall of Fame at Heinz Field...notice the name plate font on the road whites...matches Lambert game photos, not the short sleeved road jersey. Also, a Lambert home black jersey....shocker, its long sleeved!

Notice that these jerseys don't have the extra sewn on length added to them that recently sold at a few different auction house....why is that? IMO...they never existed!

Notice that many of these jerseys don't have the Steelers Sand Knit "Exclusive" Tag...why is that? IMO...it was never there to begin with!

Maybe Lou Lamspon thinks like George Constanza...."It's Not a Lie, If You Believe It."

beantown
12-17-2008, 10:26 PM
i'm not quite sure which jerseys dave is referring to - i believe the jersey being debated is an '84 road jersey (white), not a home jersey as dave mentions. further, the '83 jersey rudy linked to (which appears to be one mears was involved with) is a home jersey - dave states that mears has an '83 road jersey in its database which, obviously, would seem to imply that the '83 home jersey sold through mastro (which rudy linked to) didn't involve mears. if this is the case then we're looking at three short sleeve lambert shirts.

as far as dave stating "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." - i just don't get it nor do i understand why responding to such a question would be "unfair" to mears members. i would think mears would be eager and willing to respond fully to any questions regarding an item thought to have been evaluated by their team - especially given mears' past relationship with mastro. but, hey, what do i know?

btw do any of you jersey experts find anything odd about the letter spacing found on the short sleeve lambert shirt being discussed? as i've mentioned before, i know zilch about jerseys but i noticed that the letters appear to be spaced much farther apart in game photos when compared to the '84 ss road jersey in quesion. photos a&b are game photos, photo c is a long sleeve road gamer sold at auction (letter spacing is consistent with game photos), and photo d shows two shots of the short sleeve '84 road shirt.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jlcomp.jpg


...




Robert,

I forgot to add this important observation...notice the #58 on the shoulders and how much the vary in space from the short sleeved version vs. the long sleeve version...a noticeable difference!

If someone can find a photo of Lambert with the #58 shoulder numbers that close to the neck line, please post...I'm willing to bet that photo is as common as Lambert wearing short sleeves.....

kingjammy24
12-17-2008, 10:35 PM
1) as many have seen, lampson has come to some truly bizarre conclusions numerous times over. it's not that folks aren't willing or even wanting to believe him. it's just that, at a minimum, they're curious how he came to his unorthodox opinions. after all, there must be some method to his madness. when lambert asserted he'd never worn short sleeves, his evidence was his memory and first-hand experience which certainly carry substantial weight. what then was behind lou's (and mears') assertion that lambert was wrong? apparently neither can produce a single photo. lou's main evidence seems to be the "suggestions of colleagues" that photos of lambert wearing a short-sleeved shirt, much like photos of sasquatch, may possibly exist. mastro tossed in a cropped "photomatch" that showed a long-sleeve shirt. when mears and lampson were asserting that lambert was wrong, they had no photographic evidence to back it up. what then did they base their opinions on and what evidence did they have add weight to those opinions? i hope it doesn't revolve around these shirts being owned by bushing or lampson.

2) the fonts: the kerning is different. maybe there's a legit reason for it, maybe not. a steelers expert familiar with that era might know. i've seen legit kerning differences (within the same team and same year) and fraudulent kerning differences. robert, in photo C, the "A" and "M" are different fonts than on the other photos. the middle of the M goes all the way to the bottom. not sure which version matches game photos.

3) grob: i understand that mears sells access to their previous evaluations. that's fair. after all, they're in the business of selling opinions and a good amount of work often goes into those opinions. the thing, i wasn't asking for the evaluation results or any of the supporting work. i wasn't asking for photos, pop reports, opinions, or anything of the sort. i was simply asking for mears to either confirm or deny that they'd worked on a short-sleeved lambert in spring 2007. my only purpose was to see if mears was the "third party authenticator" being referred to on lambert's website. what sort of truly bizarre professional outfit won't simply confirm or deny that it was responsible for a certain piece of work? i can't think of a single profession or company that won't take credit for work they've done. then again, if i had slapped an 8.5 onto a short-sleeved lambert and told lambert he was wrong about his jerseys, then i guess i'd be pretty hesitant to take responsibility as well. anyway, judging from some of the sentiment i've heard about dave's response, good luck to mears in soliciting free help from others in the future.

rudy.

aeneas01
12-18-2008, 12:36 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/nob.jpg

yes, not only do the letters appear to be spaced very close together on the short sleeve shirt (framed in blue lines above), but the center "m" is not consistent with the gamers shown. interestingly, even long names such as "greenwood" and "stallworth" were generously spaced when it came to steelers road jerseys of that era - nothing like the short sleeve shirt. in fact the letter spacing and "m" of the ss jersey are consistent with "authentic" reproductions found around the web.

so what are we looking at, what's the score?

1. lambert was known to have worn long sleeve jerseys throughout his career and his website confirms this. further, no photo or film frame of lambert wearing a short sleeve jersey can be produced. yet, according to the loa, lambert "perhaps" wore a short sleeve jersey at the end of his career. the proof? according to the author of the loa, "collegues" have "suggested" as much.

2. the jersey was once listed as a gamer, graded a high 9, and described as "... as nice a lambert as you will find." some time later it hit the blocks again but this time it was listed as a practice shirt, without a grade, and described as "... an acceptable representation". it appears that both descriptions were authored by the same person.

3. when the jersey was first listed as a gamer and graded a high 9, the loa stated that the sleeves were cut to provide comfort during warm game days late in lambert's career. yet every photo and film frame show lambert wearing his long sleeve jersey late in his career, even during hot days. in fact lambert can clearly be seen wearing his long sleeve jesey, his black one no less, in the final game of his career which took place on a sunny afternoon in miami.

4. in one of the loas the author boldly defends the short sleeves by stating "... one might expect to see stitch remnants of oval sleeve reinforcements which extended up into the lowermost regions of the sleeve stripe pattern... by '82, '83, '84, '85 and onward, a long sleeve jersey almost would not have had the reinforcement." fact: photo evidence exists of lambert wearing long sleeve jerseys with sleeve reinforcements through the final year of his career, 1984. fact: photo evidence exists of other steelers players wearing short sleeve jerseys with visible remnants of sleeve reinforcements during the early '80s.

5. so what are we left with? we're left with a) a short sleeve shirt void of any elbow reinforced stitching which would suggest it was once a long sleeved jersey, b) shoulder numbers that appear far too close to the collar, c) nob lettering that's more consistent with "authentic" reproductions than gamers, d) zero photo evidence that lambert ever wore a short sleeve jersey and e) an authenticator claiming that lambert wore this jersey.

6. we're also left with a) clear photo evidence that lambert wore a long sleeve jersey throughout his career including the final game he ever played, b) his word that he never wore a short sleeve shirt and c) a body of evidence that contradicts most everything stated in the loas.

....

kingjammy24
12-18-2008, 02:53 PM
.. so what are we looking at, what's the score?
....

apparently it all adds up to a mears 8.5! almost makes you wonder what sort of lambert jersey you'd have to present to get an "unable to authenticate". maybe one without any sleeves at all? "tank-top style". or would that just be another 1 pt deduction?

rudy.

aeneas01
12-18-2008, 08:14 PM
apparently it all adds up to a mears 8.5! almost makes you wonder what sort of lambert jersey you'd have to present to get an "unable to authenticate". maybe one without any sleeves at all? "tank-top style". or would that just be another 1 pt deduction?

so what's the deal - is dave grob unsure of which lambert jersey mears actually authenticated, is he confused? or does mears' database contain bad information? i ask because dave stated that the only lambert jersey mears authenticated, the only lambert jersey found in mears' database, is a short sleeve '83 road jersey which mears awarded an 8.5 (1.5 points deducted for short sleeves). the thing is, i don't think a lambert '83 short sleeve road jersey has ever surfaced - at least it hasn't been discussed here.

the short sleeve lambert jerseys that have been discused are:

1. vintage athentics (04/07, $7,200): '84 road (white) jersey listed as a gamer, graded 9, and descibed as "... as nice a lambert jersey as you'll find".

2. mastro (11/08, $3,500): '84 road (white) jersey listed as a practice shirt, not graded, and described as an "... acceptable representation...". this jersey is the exact same shirt as mentioned above, previously listed by vintage authentics.

3. mastro (04/07, $8,400): '83 home (black) jersey listed as a gamer, graded 8.5, and described as "...spectacular". is this the "'83 road jersey" dave is referring to? the jersey that mears authenticated and which they contain in their database? fwiw this same jersey sold at gfc in 12/06 for $6,300.

i agree with you rudy - it appears this is another example of mears' inability to photo style-match a shirt yet going ahead and stamping it with a high grade and declaring it an authentic gamer. i wonder if mears owned this jersey when they graded it.

.....

trsent
12-18-2008, 08:34 PM
The jersey Rudy mentioned is the same jersey discussed by Dave Grob as the MEARS database only shows one Jack Lambert jersey, and it is identified as Lot #1431 in the description.

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot+Information&LotIndex=70594&LastLotListing=Lot+Search+List&CurrentRow=1

aeneas01
12-18-2008, 08:41 PM
The jersey Rudy mentioned is the same jersey discussed by Dave Grob as the MEARS database only shows one Jack Lambert jersey, and it is identified as Lot #1431 in the description.

http://www.mastronet.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot+Information&LotIndex=70594&LastLotListing=Lot+Search+List&CurrentRow=1

so dave got it wrong when he stated that the only lambert jersey mears has in its database, the only lambert jersey mears has authenticated, is an "83 road jersey"? because the shirt you linked to is not an '83 road jersey as dave mentioned, it's an '83 home jersey.

...

trsent
12-18-2008, 11:56 PM
so dave got it wrong when he stated that the only lambert jersey mears has in its database, the only lambert jersey mears has authenticated, is an "83 road jersey"? because the shirt you linked to is not an '83 road jersey as dave mentioned, it's an '83 home jersey.

...

I only found this one jersey in the MEARS online database. I assume Dave mis-titled the jersey, but I do not know. Dave's email can be found on the MEARS forum if you wish to email him your question.

aeneas01
12-19-2008, 12:53 AM
Dave's email can be found on the MEARS forum if you wish to email him your question.

i think dave has made it pretty clear that he (and mears) will not answer questions regarding items they have authenticated - something about it being unfair to their paid subscribers. in fact i believe you copied and pasted this point from the mears bulletin board, no?

given mears' policy i guess it's safe to say that mears is pretty much like lampson in terms of trying to get answers about their findings and loas - explanations are simply not available. unless, of course, you care to pay a mears' membership fee to find out why they might have graded a jersey an 8.5, called it "sensational", and declared it a gamer despite no photo support whatsoever. as i've mentioned before, i would think mears would want to respond to questions regarding their curious decisions - promptly and free of charge. but what do i know. btw if lampson ever joined the internet age he could get in on this pay per view service as well.

speaking of lampson, i've noticed that he has no problem changing his findings, changing the content of his loas, as an item makes the rounds and he's asked/paid to write an opinion on the item again. the lambert jersey is a good example, the blanda helmet is another good example and so is a "hacksaw" reynolds rams helmet that he authenticated.

i wonder how it works at mears. given their database, i'm assuming that once mears writes an loa for an item then that's it - that this item will always be backed by the mears loa. if this is the case, then it would seem that as the item makes the rounds through the years accompanied with the mears loa, then any auction house could simply quote the mears loa that came with the item as part of their lot description - without having to pay mears. a free authentication if you will.

...

trsent
12-19-2008, 01:00 AM
i think dave has made it pretty clear that he (and mears) will not answer questions regarding items they have authenticated - something about it being unfair to their paid subscribers. in fact i believe you copied and pasted this point from the mears bulletin board, no?

given mears' policy i guess it's safe to say that mears is pretty much like lampson in terms of trying to get answers about their findings and loas - explanations are simply not available. unless, of course, you care to pay a mears' membership fee to find out why they might have graded a jersey an 8.5, called it "sensational", and declared it a gamer despite no photo support whatsoever. as i've mentioned before, i would think mears would want to respond to questions regarding their curious decisions - promptly and free of charge. but what do i know. btw if lampson ever joined the internet age he could get in on this pay per view service as well.

speaking of lampson, i've noticed that he has no problem changing his findings, changing the content of his loas, as an item makes the rounds and he's asked/paid to write an opinion on the item again. the lambert jersey is a good example, the blanda helmet is another good example and so is a "hacksaw" reynolds rams helmet that he authenticated.

i wonder how it works at mears. given their database, i'm assuming that once mears writes an loa for an item then that's it - that this item will always be backed by the mears loa. if this is the case, then it would seem that as the item makes the rounds through the years accompanied with the mears loa, then any auction house could simply quote the mears loa that came with the item as part of their lot description - without having to pay mears. a free authentication if you will.

...

Robert, Dave said he will not answer questions found in their online database, but if you emailed him asking if there was some confusion over if the jersey was a home or road jersey, I would think he would answer the question.

I think your comparison between MEARS and Lou Lampson is a bit extreme, don't you? MEARS has emails, forums, phones, physical addresses that you can offer them questions and concerns. I believe Dave Grob was addressing a general question that he felt were unfair to paying MEARS members if he answered.

I do not believe MEARS has ever backed down from a discussion about their grades or a particular item when approached. Has Lou Lampson ever answered questions about his authentications that have come up on this forum?

aeneas01
12-19-2008, 02:25 AM
Robert, Dave said he will not answer questions found in their online database, but if you emailed him asking if there was some confusion over if the jersey was a home or road jersey, I would think he would answer the question.apparently you know dave better than i and can speak to what he's most likely open to answering. but based on his response to rudy, i think it's clear he's serious about his position and i would rather not guess what he might answer and what he won't answer. further, i'll respect his position and not ask him about items mears has authenticated.


I think your comparison between MEARS and Lou Lampson is a bit extreme, don't you? MEARS has emails, forums, phones, physical addresses that you can offer them questions and concerns. I believe Dave Grob was addressing a general question that he felt were unfair to paying MEARS members if he answered.i'm not sure what good a physical address, a phone number and an email address serves if mears clearly states they will not answer a collector's questions regarding items they've authenticated if not a paid member. imo this makes mears just as incommunicado as lampson given i have no interest in paying their fee. as far as dave is concerned, i don't think he was answering a "general" question as you suggest - i believe he was answering a very specific question and the question was "did mears authenticate a short-sleeved jack lambert steelers shirt for mastro..." and dave responded very specifically "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." nothing ambiguous or general about the question or response. so, again, i'll respect dave's position.


Has Lou Lampson ever answered questions about his authentications that have come up on this forum?lamspon responded to the gazillion concerns i had with a blanda helmet he authenticated, concerns which i posted at the forum. he addressed every single point i made in a 15 page manifesto which was included in mastro's last auction. he's also responded, indirectly, to other problems i've found with some of the lids he's authenticated. mears responded to my concerns regarding half a dozen bunk helmets sold through mastro that were said to have been authenticated by mears and furnished with mears loas - none of the helmets were as described. mears was quick to say they never looked at these lids nor issued loas, that mastro incorrectly added mears' name to the lot descriptions, and buyers were offered refunds. but i guess mears decided to respond because these lids were not in their database? who knows.

...

trsent
12-19-2008, 12:45 PM
apparently you know dave better than i and can speak to what he's most likely open to answering. but based on his response to rudy, i think it's clear he's serious about his position and i would rather not guess what he might answer and what he won't answer. further, i'll respect his position and not ask him about items mears has authenticated.

i'm not sure what good a physical address, a phone number and an email address serves if mears clearly states they will not answer a collector's questions regarding items they've authenticated if not a paid member. imo this makes mears just as incommunicado as lampson given i have no interest in paying their fee. as far as dave is concerned, i don't think he was answering a "general" question as you suggest - i believe he was answering a very specific question and the question was "did mears authenticate a short-sleeved jack lambert steelers shirt for mastro..." and dave responded very specifically "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it." nothing ambiguous or general about the question or response. so, again, i'll respect dave's position.

lamspon responded to the gazillion concerns i had with a blanda helmet he authenticated, concerns which i posted at the forum. he addressed every single point i made in a 15 page manifesto which was included in mastro's last auction. he's also responded, indirectly, to other problems i've found with some of the lids he's authenticated. mears responded to my concerns regarding half a dozen bunk helmets sold through mastro that were said to have been authenticated by mears and furnished with mears loas - none of the helmets were as described. mears was quick to say they never looked at these lids nor issued loas, that mastro incorrectly added mears' name to the lot descriptions, and buyers were offered refunds. but i guess mears decided to respond because these lids were not in their database? who knows.

...

So, Robert, what are you saying? You don't want to address your question to Dave Grob, and you don't like MEARS, so I do not know how you would like this conversation to continue.

MEARS will answer questions such as the one you have made if you address it to them or they may answer it based on your posts on this forum, but if I were MEARS I would ignore the question since you have compared them to another authenticator because you didn't approve of Dave Grob's public reply to Rudy.

I believe Dave Grob (and I do not speak for him or MEARS) was making it clear that MEARS has a public database that is accessible for a fee so he will not answer questions about what is in that database for non-paying members.

If there is a question about a MEARS LOA I believe MEARS will address the question, but he took a stance and you have turned it all around on them with unpleasant assumptions and comparisons. That is fine if it is how you see things, but I believe they are not going to ignore questions just based on this one situation.

metsmetsmets
12-19-2008, 01:40 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/nob.jpg

yes, not only do the letters appear to be spaced very close together on the short sleeve shirt (framed in blue lines above), but the center "m" is not consistent with the gamers shown. interestingly, even long names such as "greenwood" and "stallworth" were generously spaced when it came to steelers road jerseys of that era - nothing like the short sleeve shirt. in fact the letter spacing and "m" of the ss jersey are consistent with "authentic" reproductions found around the web.

so what are we looking at, what's the score?

1. lambert was known to have worn long sleeve jerseys throughout his career and his website confirms this. further, no photo or film frame of lambert wearing a short sleeve jersey can be produced. yet, according to the loa, lambert "perhaps" wore a short sleeve jersey at the end of his career. the proof? according to the author of the loa, "collegues" have "suggested" as much.

2. the jersey was once listed as a gamer, graded a high 9, and described as "... as nice a lambert as you will find." some time later it hit the blocks again but this time it was listed as a practice shirt, without a grade, and described as "... an acceptable representation". it appears that both descriptions were authored by the same person.

3. when the jersey was first listed as a gamer and graded a high 9, the loa stated that the sleeves were cut to provide comfort during warm game days late in lambert's career. yet every photo and film frame show lambert wearing his long sleeve jersey late in his career, even during hot days. in fact lambert can clearly be seen wearing his long sleeve jesey, his black one no less, in the final game of his career which took place on a sunny afternoon in miami.

4. in one of the loas the author boldly defends the short sleeves by stating "... one might expect to see stitch remnants of oval sleeve reinforcements which extended up into the lowermost regions of the sleeve stripe pattern... by '82, '83, '84, '85 and onward, a long sleeve jersey almost would not have had the reinforcement." fact: photo evidence exists of lambert wearing long sleeve jerseys with sleeve reinforcements through the final year of his career, 1984. fact: photo evidence exists of other steelers players wearing short sleeve jerseys with visible remnants of sleeve reinforcements during the early '80s.

5. so what are we left with? we're left with a) a short sleeve shirt void of any elbow reinforced stitching which would suggest it was once a long sleeved jersey, b) shoulder numbers that appear far too close to the collar, c) nob lettering that's more consistent with "authentic" reproductions than gamers, d) zero photo evidence that lambert ever wore a short sleeve jersey and e) an authenticator claiming that lambert wore this jersey.

6. we're also left with a) clear photo evidence that lambert wore a long sleeve jersey throughout his career including the final game he ever played, b) his word that he never wore a short sleeve shirt and c) a body of evidence that contradicts most everything stated in the loas.

....

I noticed that the "A" in LAMBERT on the short sleeve jersey is off, as well. The triangle inside the short sleeve "A" is significantly smaller than the triangle inside the "A" on the confirmed GU Lambert jerseys in your photos.

5kRunner
12-19-2008, 02:24 PM
I noticed that the "A" in LAMBERT on the short sleeve jersey is off, as well. The triangle inside the short sleeve "A" is significantly smaller than the triangle inside the "A" on the confirmed GU Lambert jerseys in your photos.

The "R" is different as well.

aeneas01
12-19-2008, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by trsent: MEARS will answer questions such as the one you have made if you address it to them or they may answer it based on your posts on this forum... If there is a question about a MEARS LOA I believe MEARS will address the question...a forum member asked dave (mears) the simple question: "did mears authenticate a short-sleeved jack lambert steelers shirt for mastro..." - dave (mears) responded, in no uncertain terms: "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it."

another forum member asked mears several times if they had used his research, without giving him credit, when they updated the "circa dates" several times in one of their lot descriptions (dr. j shoe, current mears auction). mears did not respond to one of the forum member's emails.

given that it was quite evident that mears did use the forum member's work without extending any credit or mention, i also asked mears about this. and i asked mears if they had issued a new loa based on the forum members' information or if they simply updated the "circa dates" in the letter while leaving the other information untouched. after not receiving a response from mears, i persisted and was given the run arouund. like the other forum member, i have still not received answers to my questions.

so again joel, although you appear to be comfortable speaking for mears i don't believe dave was simply whistling in the wind when he stated that mears does not like to answer questions regarding items in their database. consequently i will post my questions and concerns at the forum and mears can respond on their bulletin board if they wish.

...

trsent
12-19-2008, 09:07 PM
a forum member asked dave (mears) the simple question: "did mears authenticate a short-sleeved jack lambert steelers shirt for mastro..." - dave (mears) responded, in no uncertain terms: "...please do not ask again for this type of information for the reasons stated as I will not provide it."

another forum member asked mears several times if they had used his research, without giving him credit, when they updated the "circa dates" several times in one of their lot descriptions (dr. j shoe, current mears auction). mears did not respond to one of the forum member's emails.

given that it was quite evident that mears did use the forum member's work without extending any credit or mention, i also asked mears about this. and i asked mears if they had issued a new loa based on the forum members' information or if they simply updated the "circa dates" in the letter while leaving the other information untouched. after not receiving a response from mears, i persisted and was given the run arouund. like the other forum member, i have still not received answers to my questions.

so again joel, although you appear to be comfortable speaking for mears i don't believe dave was simply whistling in the wind when he stated that mears does not like to answer questions regarding items in their database. consequently i will post my questions and concerns at the forum and mears can respond on their bulletin board if they wish.

...

Robert, that is fine, but without asking Dave Grob yourself, you pass judgments about him and the company he is affiliated with comparing them to Lou Lampson's service, which I do not agree with and I have no problem stating such.

aeneas01
12-19-2008, 10:15 PM
Robert, that is fine, but without asking Dave Grob yourself, you pass judgments about him and the company he is affiliated with comparing them to Lou Lampson's service, which I do not agree with and I have no problem stating such.

joel, i will repeat myself for the third or fourth time: dave has made it perfectly clear that he and mears will not discuss items in their database - the short sleeve jersey rudy asked about and which i've questioned is in their database. i have chosen to respect dave's clear position - yet you insist that i ignore his direction and contact him about this shirt anyway. i have explained my decision to you many times before yet you persist. dave has stated that discussing information accessible only to paid mears subscibers is unfair. i don't agree but, again, i have respected dave's request not to ask him or mears about it. but you continue to tell me that i should nonetheless contact dave about this shirt, about what he's already stated about this shirt. i think i've been perfectly clear joel. is there another way i can explain to you why i have chosen not to contact dave which you might understand? or are you simply stalking me with the hope this thread might be closed if you continue to ask the same question over and over while ignoring the response? actually no need to respond, i think many here already know the answer to this question.

...

aeneas01
12-19-2008, 10:33 PM
You know, you try and give Lou and the auction houses the benefit of the doubt, but when you see auction houses refusing to pull a jersey on the actual player's say so where a clearcut issue is involved like this, mysteriously cropped pics to support an item, and obvious fantasy in item descriptions and LOA's, you really have to wonder what it takes to get a prosecution for fraud in this friggin' country anymore.

i don't know how one would go about prosecuting an "opinion" - perhaps if a blatant pattern of "honest mistakes" could be established. in a case like this, an authenticator could simply point to a photo like the one below and say "oops".

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/haha.jpg

...

beantown
12-19-2008, 11:08 PM
i don't know how one would go about prosecuting an "opinion" - perhaps if a blatant pattern of "honest mistakes" could be established. in a case like this, an authenticator could simply point to a photo like the one below and say "oops".

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/haha.jpg

...

This MUST be Lambert...I see a #5 an the last name begins with an "L"....wow, there is photographic evidence that Lambert wore short sleeves!!!

Actually, that is David Little #50...;)

Keep trying authenticators.....

Eric
12-21-2008, 01:03 PM
Gentlemen-

I wanted to step in here and offer my opinion about some of the comparisons here. I think it is absolutely unfair to compare Dave Grob to Lou Lampson. They couldn't be more different as a matter of fact.

As long as I have known Dave Grob, his goal has been to share information with everyone in the hobby. Dave was the first expert to hop on board with the old game used forum site and offer his expertise.

He has continued to make that his priority at MEARS. Because he doesn't wish to share information for free which is available to the people who pay for a MEARS subscription does not make him Lou Lampson.

Lou Lampson has no contact information and does not justify how he comes to his conclusions. There is a world of difference.

I have enjoyed my conversations with Dave Grob over the years. We haven't always agreed, but we have both been up front with each other about the issues.

If your questions are about how MEARS came to their conclusions, then go ahead and ask them. And post the response here.

I am happy to read or responses here, or you can email me at ecky3@aol.com
Thanks
Eric

both-teams-played-hard
12-21-2008, 05:48 PM
I wanted to step in here and offer my opinion about some of the comparisons here. I think it is absolutely unfair to compare Dave Grob to Lou Lampson.

Agreed. Not even close. LTC Grob makes himself available to collectors and seems to actually like answering questions. He is a thoughtful dude who wants to make the hobby better.
When I read an incorrect LOA from Lampson, I think to myself: "that's just Lampy being Lampy."

33bird
12-21-2008, 05:57 PM
I agree too. Grob has always emailed me right back with great information about Reds game used items. Lampson is the worst of the worst. Come on.
Greg
biggamebird@yahoo.com

kingjammy24
12-21-2008, 06:38 PM
i don't think anyone's questioning dave's character or his contributions.

he's posted lots of great and informative articles, for free, on the mears board. i'm sure he's also willingly assisted many collectors for free. all of that's great and speaks volumes.

which is what makes my experience all the more bizarre. i believe robert was solely referring to my single experience in asking about the lambert jersey, not about dave's last 20 yrs in the hobby. with my experience, it was simply an odd thing to have asked him merely whether mears had looked at an item or not and be told not to ask for such info. the irony of it all? www.100percentauthentic.com (http://www.100percentauthentic.com) is a free, public database of all of the authentications that lou lampson has done for AMI. if i wanted to know whether lou's done any lambert authentications this year, i can go there and check out not only whether he's done it but also the results. if i asked mears the very same question, on the other hand, i'd be told to scram. dave's long trumpeted the importance of accountability and transparency yet it doesn't seem very accountable and transparent when someone evaluates an item and then refuses to say whether or not they've evaluated it.

rudy.

aeneas01
12-21-2008, 07:55 PM
I think it is absolutely unfair to compare Dave Grob to Lou Lampson. They couldn't be more different as a matter of fact.

can someone point me to where dave was compared to lampson? correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe the following was stated:

"given mears' policy i guess it's safe to say that mears is pretty much like lampson in terms of trying to get answers about their findings and loas - explanations are simply not available. unless, of course, you care to pay a mears' membership fee to find out why they might have graded a jersey an 8.5, called it "sensational", and declared it a gamer despite no photo support whatsoever. as i've mentioned before, i would think mears would want to respond to questions regarding their curious decisions - promptly and free of charge. but what do i know. btw if lampson ever joined the internet age he could get in on this pay per view service as well."

if someone would like to make the argument that this is the same as singling dave out given his affiliation with mears, then i would have to respectfully disagree. so let's be clear, dave was not singled out and compared to lampson.

...

trsent
12-22-2008, 10:21 AM
Gentlemen-

I wanted to step in here and offer my opinion about some of the comparisons here. I think it is absolutely unfair to compare Dave Grob to Lou Lampson. They couldn't be more different as a matter of fact.

As long as I have known Dave Grob, his goal has been to share information with everyone in the hobby. Dave was the first expert to hop on board with the old game used forum site and offer his expertise.

He has continued to make that his priority at MEARS. Because he doesn't wish to share information for free which is available to the people who pay for a MEARS subscription does not make him Lou Lampson.

Lou Lampson has no contact information and does not justify how he comes to his conclusions. There is a world of difference.

I have enjoyed my conversations with Dave Grob over the years. We haven't always agreed, but we have both been up front with each other about the issues.

If your questions are about how MEARS came to their conclusions, then go ahead and ask them. And post the response here.

I am happy to read or responses here, or you can email me at ecky3@aol.com
Thanks
Eric

Bravo, Eric - A genuine, honest post.


can someone point me to where dave was compared to lampson? correct me if i'm wrong, but i believe the following was stated:

"given mears' policy i guess it's safe to say that mears is pretty much like lampson in terms of trying to get answers about their findings and loas - explanations are simply not available. unless, of course, you care to pay a mears' membership fee to find out why they might have graded a jersey an 8.5, called it "sensational", and declared it a gamer despite no photo support whatsoever. as i've mentioned before, i would think mears would want to respond to questions regarding their curious decisions - promptly and free of charge. but what do i know. btw if lampson ever joined the internet age he could get in on this pay per view service as well."

if someone would like to make the argument that this is the same as singling dave out given his affiliation with mears, then i would have to respectfully disagree. so let's be clear, dave was not singled out and compared to lampson.

...

So, you compared MEARS with Lou Lampson, I am sure this was an honest error when it was mentioned that you compared Dave Grob and Lou Lampson.

Your intentions are very clear and all the same.

I believe what Eric has suggested is that you email MEARS when you have a question about an item's authenticity and post their response here. I know, it appears some people would rather give trial to items before discussing the authentication with the authenticator, but at least you made an attempt to talk to the authenticator before giving them a public trial.

MEARS has never backed away from questions about items if you can identify the item. If you come to them asking for information only available to members on their web site - I can see why they do not wish to answer the question to a non-member. If you come to them asking about a blanket, blind accusation on a web site that doesn't identify the item or authenticator, I can see why the question about the Lambert jersey was not completely answered.

commando
12-22-2008, 11:54 AM
aeneas01,

If I were you, I'd try to contact MEARS. See if they respond. I believe you started a great topic, but the focus of it has gotten way off track because of this issue.

Instead of addressing how this jersey appears to be unworn by Lambert, and probably not issued by the Steelers at all, we now have a diversion that is focusing on other things.

As usual, thanks to aeneas01 for his outstanding research and knowledge!

jppopma
12-22-2008, 12:12 PM
I always enjoy reading the information and evidence that Robert, Rudy, and others post on here. Even on items that I am not remotely interested in, it's a benefit to learn about the errors and signs to look for on these jerseys as they often bleed into the same problems on items I am looking at. Thank you guys for that.

Joel makes references to public trial and such before contacting them; however this is an open forum and each is allowed to provide their own evidence and observations. I don't think they are trying to be judge and jury in this or any of the cases. In the end we as buyers are the ultimate judge and jury on whatever we choose to buy. THEY are more like expert witnesses in that case, right along with any authenticator or others on each side of the jersey. In their defense, any authenticator or those in agreeance should feel free to post their evidence on these same posts.

If they question an item from Lou, Dave, or anyone else...we should just leave it at that. It's a question (often good question) and can be used by anyone to consider the piece. I don't think they are trying to destroy anybody maliciously; just sometimes an overwhelming frustration will come across. We all have those same frustrations and fears that something we may buy will turn out to be a fake!

flaco1801
12-22-2008, 01:14 PM
i think i know why jack lambert NEVER wore short sleeved shirts. he says he might disclose it later..... he has a tatoo that says... (fill in the blanks)

CollectGU
12-23-2008, 09:30 AM
"given mears' policy i guess it's safe to say that mears is pretty much like lampson in terms of trying to get answers about their findings and loas - explanations are simply not available. unless, of course, you care to pay a mears' membership fee to find out why they might have graded a jersey an 8.5
...


Robert,

Actually their database is only partially available even to mebers who pay a fee. You can see some information on the items they authenticated, but not the actual photos of the items authenticated to see if fonts were correct, tagging, etc...It pretty much makes it impossible to do your own due dilligence against their findings on a jersey.

Dave Grob did give a reason for this a while back:
http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=378

Regards,
Dave

trsent
12-23-2008, 12:55 PM
Robert,

Actually their database is only partially available even to mebers who pay a fee. You can see some information on the items they authenticated, but not the actual photos of the items authenticated to see if fonts were correct, tagging, etc...It pretty much makes it impossible to do your own due dilligence against their findings on a jersey.

Dave Grob did give a reason for this a while back:
http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=378

Regards,
Dave

Dave, that link requires that you are a MERAS member to read, so I'm going to post the article since it helps with the discussion.

IMPORTANT CHANGES TO THE MEARS LOO LIBRARY by Dave Grob

This has been the toughest decision I have had to make while at MEARS since it will impact collectors. Since our inception, we have worked to provided useful and valuable information to both members and non-members. At one time we featured probably the most extensive tagging database in the hobby/industry. We made a decision to take it down when we found that others offering opinions for auction houses we were no longer working for began to rely on it heavily. Today we find ourselves in a similar situation.

In speaking with someone who has been involved in this hobby/industry for decades, it was brought to my attention that the use of the Letters of Opinion on the MEARS web site are likely to be used in a similar manner in the very near future. Unlike the information used by a much larger community of those working with bats, our information on uniforms has been built over time and at great expense. It is available for less than $1.00 a week. Subscriptions have always been such that they paid the cost of running the web site. In order to protect our investment of time and money, uniform LOO’s will no longer be viewable in their entirety. There will be no change in bat LOO’s since as I previously stated, the majority of individuals working in this field are working from the same information, most notably Louisville Slugger production information.

We will leave the jersey census information up as collectors will still be able to track items bearing a MEARS hologram but with no letter. We have found that on any number of occasions sellers seem to lose these letters when their item has been designated as Unable to Authenticate. There are currently over 4000 uniforms in the jersey census so there is still a great deal of information to be had. Should MEARS Members have detailed questions about a particular jersey, we will try to be as accommodating as possible in answering your specific questions.

As such, for any MEARS member who feels this change makes their membership no longer worth the money they paid, I ask that that they contact Troy at Troy@mearsonline.com and he will arrange for a refund. This note has also been sent via e-mails to MEARS members directly. Members have 45 days from the date of this announcement in order to re-assess their position and ask for a refund.

We will continue to write and publish information as we have in the past 2 ½ years, but we can’t allow ourselves to be taken advantage of by a segment of this industry who values what we provide, but it not willing to compensate us accordingly. At the end of the day, the real loser is the average collector who has used our information for the intent we had envisioned. The fact of the matter is the environment that exists today and the role we play in has changed dramatically. People who Dave Bushing and Troy Kinunen have known for decades have made business decisions in the best interests of their organizations that have impacted Dave and Troy’s livelihood. The Bushing and Kinunen For Sales Section was a direct outgrowth of decisions made not to use the MEARS evaluation services. While this has been very successful, Dave and Troy should not be expected to physically and financially underwrite the evaluation efforts of those in the employ of others. I don’t expect the average MEARS member to like this anymore than I do, but I at least hope they can objectively understand my position.

Since this only effects those who have paid a subscription fee to MEARS On Line, some might wonder why I have also made this announcement public. I am doing this for a number of reasons:

1. To ensure that collectors who are considering signing up for MEARS On Line know just what they are or are not getting.

2. To offer some insights on the real nature of this industry as exists today.

3. To ensure that MEARS Members who may not have a current e-mail address on file get this information.

No hidden agenda here… no double talk on why we are doing what we are doing or some spin on how it will help collectors…the sad fact is that it won’t…but this “hobby” is an industry and a business…and based on the actions of others, we have been forced to act and react accordingly.

Dave Grob

Policy Director

MEARS

kingjammy24
12-26-2008, 03:13 PM
i think i know why jack lambert NEVER wore short sleeved shirts. he says he might disclose it later..... he has a tatoo that says... (fill in the blanks)

i don't see any tattoos.

http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/1663/sillyqm1.jpg

rudy.

commando
12-31-2008, 08:57 PM
HAPPY NEW YEAR!