Mastro - Vintage GU Football Helmets

[aeneas01]

some thoughts on the bounty of vintage game used football helmets currently listed at mastro - has there ever been this many interesting helmets listed by an auction house at the same time? i don't think so. in no particular order, here's a closer look at some of the lids with a few comments based on photos. anyway, jump in you helmets heads....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A01-1.jpg

i've never seen this "circa 70s bobby bell" helmet listed at auction before but i'm not too crazy about it. bell wore an rk style helmet (bubbled/flared ear style helmet) for most of his career but switched to the tk style (pictured) in the very early 70s. the thing is, it appears bell may have taken advantage of the larger tk shells that were introduced around the time he made the switch. whatever the case, the dungard facemask positioning of the auction helmet is entirely inconsistent with bell's actual tk lid. notice where the top "t" of the facemask is mounted in the game photos - it's so close to the shell edge that the front rivet can be seen. notice the side mountings in the game photos - the facemask clips are so close to the helmet edge that the facemask is beyond the shell. now compare this with the auction photos - i've never seen an example of bell ever wearing a helmet with his dungard positioned as in the auction. for a look at a beautiful bell gamer, visit "helmet hut" and check out bell's pro bowl lid.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A05.jpg

great looking vintage pro bowl gamer - but did it belong to lamonica, was it his '72 pro bowl lid? pro bowlers typically brought their lids with them to these all star matchups - they were simply painted over in gold, red, white, etc. depending on the era. in '72, the year in question (and his final pro bowl season), lamonica sported an rk helmet (bubbled/flared ear), not a tk helmet as pictured in the auction. in fact, it's pretty safe to say that the "mad bomber" was definitely an rk helmet man, which he wore throughout his career with the raiders (although he may have switched to a tk in his final two seasons). the last game lamonica played before the '72 pro bowl was against the steelers, a game that will forever be remembered thanks to franco harris's "immaculate reception" - lamonica can clearly be seen sporting his rk in this final game. of course this doesn't mean lamonica didn't wear a tk in the '72 pro bowl - maybe he was given a tk at the pro bowl because his rk got lost, maybe he didn't want his rk painted red, who knows. whatever the case, as a buyer i would want conclusive photo evidence that lamonica wore a tk in the '72 pro bowl and, if he did, i would also have to feel comfortable with the fact that the lid falls well short of a classic example of what lamonica wore during his great, and i do mean great, years with the raiders. btw, i can't believe lamonica isn't in the hall of fame. btw, btw - there's a great looking lamonica gamer featured at helmet hut.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A06-1.jpg

looks like a dead ringer - it also appears to have very similar game markings as indicated above, markings that could potentially match up even better with the helmet in hand, rotated to reflect same angle. icing on the cake would be a game photo of unitas showing the short-lived "kra-lite-8" logo heat stamped on the back of his helmet. obviously physically examining the lid could tell a different story but from the photos alone it sure looks good. fwiw this helmet has sold for $7,500 & $10,000 in the past.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A04-1.jpg

although this helmet is a much, much better representation than the $50,000 macgregor "gamer" that sold at hunt's and the $10,000 trojan "gamer" that sold on ebay, it has far too many problems to be an actual game helmet used by unitas imo. the most obvious problems are the facemask drill holes - although these sort of drill holes are very common when it comes to authentic gamers, i have never seen a photo or film frame of unitas wearing such a helmet. in the mid 60s, for a year or two, unitas wore an rk helmet with drill holes but their location, compared to the auction helmet, were different. as can be seen in the game photos above, the side drill holes were located just above where a bd facemask would be mounted and the top drill holes were located close to the center stripe and well above helmet edge. in short, the drill holes on unitas's helmet were consistent with a "cowcatcher" facemask (pictured at the bottom left - raymond berry), and not consistent with a clip-on facemask or butterfly clip-on facemask as in the auction helmet. nonetheless, if history is any indication, this unitas "gamer" should easily fecth five figures.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A09.jpg

probably my two favorite helmets in the auction - just beautiful rk gamers. if i had to pick one, i would have to go with the atkins (saints) lid. this thing is just a knockout - a classic rk (rac) helmet, a vintage, well-worn, clip-on nop facemask, optional (and rare) factory leather forehead padding, vintage chinstrap, vintage two-piece side decals, etc. throw in the fact that it belonged to a hall of famer and that it's a helmet from the inaugural season of an nfl franchise and it becomes clear how special this lid is. if i were the owner of this lid i wouldn't be particularly happy with the part of the item description that states: "Overall, this helmet is destroyed." - imo pretty goofy wording regardless of the intent. fwiw this helmet has sold in the past for a paltry $500 and for a more deserving price of $2,000. the philbin (jets) lid is another absolute knockout - a classic xl rk (husky) helmet fiited with optional (relatively rare) factory leather padding.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A11.jpg

here's that george blanda "gamer" again which recently sold for $4,400 at another auction house. when it was previously listed i created a guu thread discussing the huge problems with this lid - i mention this because this time around the lot description includes 17 pages of "addendum & photographic support" which is a rebuttal clearly directed at what i had posted about the lid here at guu. whoever wrote the rebuttal obviously spent some time putting it together - this person is also, imo, very familiar with game used items including football helmets. and although the rebuttal was interesting and at times an informative read, it contained nothing that would convince me that this was blanda's "70-71 game used helmet".

what the rebuttal did do was try to convince the reader that just about every helmet that comes down the pike could have easily belonged to pretty much any player because, according to the author, "...helmets were used by multiple players without regard to veteran status, star status, salary or any other criteria, save for size, fit, mask, or padding considerations." while this is certainly true to some extent, it's also true that many players wore the same helmet over the course of many of many years (including raiders) - in fact, some players wore the same helmet for their entire careers. like a baseball glove, many players preferred their own broken-in lids as far as the padding was concerned.

anyway, i pretty much disagree with just about everything in the rebuttal including the explanation concerning the outline of the "32" which can be seen below the current decals. i also have to point out that a couple of photos the author used to support his position, that blanda wore a helmet with a white snubber during the 70-71 season, are in black & white and of poor quality. if you look at the higher quality color photos available (as can be seen in the bottom right hand game photo above dated 1970), it's pretty obvious that his snubber is gray. in fact there are even color photos in which the snubber appears almost white - but further investigation proves this effect is simply caused by glare.

as far as this "70-71 blanda gamer" is concerned, i'll ask the author of the rebuttal two simple questions: 1) can you find one photo or film frame, just one, showing blanda wearing a helmet that roughly matches this helmet? and 2) if this helmet was subsequently used by another player (or players) and the drill holes were added to meet that player's facemask requirements as you suggest, then why does blanda's number "16" remain on the back of the helmet? why wouldn't the subsequent player(s) number appear on the back of the helmet?


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A03-1.jpg

this is a tak29 helmet and one of my favorite styles given that it represents the transition from suspension helmet to a cell padded helmet. the problem is i have not seen any evidence that riggins ever wore a tak29 while with the jets. during his first 3 years in new york he sported a suspension helmet (tk) and then switched to a cell for his final two years. a tak29 helmet is easily identified from the exterior because both the rivets (that secure the suspension crown) and pegs (which secure the cell padding) are evident. looking at the game photos above, riggins can be seen wearing a suspension helmet (all rivets) and a cell helmet (all pegs). in the auction photo rivets can be seen and so can the peg(s) (circled in red). this helmet has sold for $3,800 in the past.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A12.jpg

here are a couple of great looking helmets but, frankly, i wish i could feel better about them. the bart starr helmet strikes me as an authentic packers gamer that was made to look like what starr wore. the macgregor "absorblo" e64l chinstrap, which came with macgregor e505 helmets, is consistent with what starr wore although starr's chinstrap was typically fitted with a metal sizer/fastener, not a nylon/plastic one as appears in the auction. the bt2 (stubby) facemask also strikes me as an addon given what appears to be such light use. and, needless to say, i'm not too crazy about this mention in the item desciption: "On the lower back, the outershell numeric identifiers have been enhanced."

as far as the biletnikoff lid is concerned, as a buyer i would feel much more comfortable if i could locate a single photo (of the many in circulation) that roughly matched the details of this helmet. specifically, a photo that showed fred wearing a lid with only top drill holes (as opposed to top holes and side holes) that hadn't been repainted by the reconditioner. too much to ask? perhaps. especially given the many types of looks his rk(s) showed throughout the years including cracks that were merely taped up. could this lid be one of fred's gamers? i suppose. could it simply be a raiders reject gamer signed by fred and then added to? sure. imo.

...

[aeneas01]

continued.....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A07-1.jpg

here are some nice helmets that have sold at auction in the past. a beautiful bengals tk2 (sold for $600), a classic bears wilson f2002 - one of my favorites, that's been attributed to cecil turner (sold for $600 & $480), a great looking cowboys tak29 (sold for $355) and a pac3 oilers lid attributed to nielson (floated on ebay, reached $125 but not reserve).


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A14.jpg

this is the second best early career elway "gamer" i've seen listed - the best one was fitted the correct facemask and clips. anyway, incorrect facemask withstanding, there's a lot to like about this helmet which, incidentally, sold for $7,000 at auction in the past. not only is it a m155 helmet which is what elway wore during that period, but it's also a m155 fitted with the type of mid-forehead padding configuration elway used (as can be seen in the game photo above). the m155 was an odd lid given that the forehead padding area was home to several unique padding schemes. the extra wide wildcat bumper (inner) is also consistent with what elway wore. the alzado lid looks nice as well and is consistent with what alzado wore when with the broncos, a riddell micro fit. that's the good news - the bad news is that no team (as far as i know) was fitted with more m155 & microfit lids than the broncos. as such, if someone got their hands on an authentic broncos gamer from that era (and they are around), it would most likely be a m155 or a microfit. and i think we all know what that could mean.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A15.jpg

some very nice looking gamers. i especially like the timmy brown pro bowl (east vs west) helmet that's painted goldm green paint from his eagles helmet can be seen below the gold paint. the mckenzie (bills) lid looks great as well - gotta love mckenzie, great player and another guy that refused to give up his suspension helmet in favor of the modern padded lids. the mccall (saints) lid is another rk beauty that has sold for $975 at auction in the past. the frank pitts lid is especially interesting and worth a closer look. unfortunately it's not his lid from the chiefs 1969 super bowl season - pitts sported an rk that year.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A02-1.jpg

this dawson "gamer" has made the rounds and according to my records last sold for $7,200. imo this lid has a lot of problems and is most likely not a lid dawson used. it's mentioned in the lot description that the top drill holes are most likely the result of dawson sporting a dungard at one time. the problem is the spacing of the holes is not consistent with the dungard he wore. he did sport a lid for a while with top holes that matched this lid but it was a different helmet. could have dawson have worn this helmet at any time during career? i guess anything is possible - especially given the amount of different lids dawson sported. but this thing is a huge leap of faith imo - more so considering that the side arrowhead decal style (with transparent trim/border), despite when the lot description claims, were not introduced until after dawson had retired.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A08.jpg

here are some great looking lids. according to the lot description, the walston (eagles) tk2 helmet was used by him in the 1960 championship game. the problem is the tk2 helmet wasn't introduced by riddell until 1962, two years after the championship game. perhaps this helmet was originally a tk5 (6-point suspension helmet), that walston actually wore in the championship game, which was later reconditioned and fitted with the new 12-point suspension webbing found in the tk2 helmet? hmmm... possible. the fischer (redskins) lid is real beauty - a vintage gladiator "water helmet". the lot description should point out that fischer most likely wore ths very lid in the 1972 super bowl. the pugh (dallas) helmet is spectacular - a classic xl rk "husky" lid which is what pugh wore during his first 5 years in the league. most likely worn in the championship games of the mid 60s against the packers but not the super bowl (he had switched to a tk by the time the cowboys reached the super bowls in the early 70s). the willie davis (packers) helmet is a very rare double-rivet rk "husky" helmet, a real beauty. but as is the case with the bart starr helmet, the numbers appearing on the back of the helmet have been "enhanced". on top of this a helmet hut reproduction suspension unit has been added to the empty sell. a great looking packers gamer to be sure - but i wouldn't pay "willie davis" game used money for this. especially given the number of packers shells (gutted) that have hit the market - possibly packers helmets that were sent to the reconditioner, stripped of their suspension units and rejected. btw i have never seen any of these lids listed at auction before.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A16.jpg

the craig morton lid (dallas) is very curious. it is date stamped '73 which means that it could have very well not been ready for use until the '74 season, morton's last year with the 'boys that saw him traded to the giants after only two games of virtually no action. even if it was issued to morton in '73, the guy only tossed 32 passes all year as backup to staubach. so where did the relatively heavy use come from? was it passsed on to another player after morton left as the lot description suggests? if so, why is morton's name still taped on the back? why is morton's name the only one boldly written on the inside of the lid? maybe it was just the cowboys' way of sending morton a message, that he was on his way out - by giving him a well worn helmet from the '73 season to use in '74. whatever the case, it's hardly an ideal representation of a craig morton gamer imo. fwiw this thing has sold for $3,200 in the past.

as a lifelong rams fan i'm always drawn towards rams gamers. i've seen this youngblood lid listed before, it has sold in the past for $3,400, but i'm not too crazy about it. certainly appears to be an authentic rams gamer, but did it belong to one of the greatest rams players of all time? one of the things i don't like about it is the green dot (large) facemask - youngblood typically squeezed his head into a smaller helmet that was fitted with a red dot (standard) facemask. there was only a 5 year window in which youngblood wore a helmet with yellow horns and a gray facemask ('76-'80) - for the first two years of this 5 year stretch, he used single side facemask clips (as in the auction) and then switched to double side clips. as was the case throughout his career, he only sported a red dot facemask during this period as far as i can tell. i would be interested in knowing the date stamp but mastro no longer responds to my requests.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A13.jpg

the hornung lid (upper left corner) is one of the several gutted packers shells that hit the market not too long ago - it last sold for $10,800. interestingly, it was fitted with a bd9 facemask and chinstrap the last time around - where did they go? the left "g" decal appears to be better atached this time around as well - there's still some lifting but not as much as the last time it was listed. were the back numbers also "enhanced"? the elijah pitts lid (bottom right corner) is another one of those gutted packers shells i've mentioned - it sold for $1,700 the last time it hit the blocks. the charlie sanders pro bowl lid is a good looking helmet, sold for $1,700 in the past, and matches up nicely with photos of sanders from that year. the dallas texans helmet, attributed to jim swink, is a fantastic loking rk4 helmet - just a real beauty. it has sold for $3,100 in the past. another good looking texans helmet, an rk2 style marietta, sold for $4,200 & $5,000 in the past.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/A10.jpg

a few more lids. the james harris lid (upper left) sold for $675 the last time t hit the market. like the hornung helmet, this thing has been picked clean as well - gone are the leather jaw pads and all remnants of the facemask clips and facemask hardware. the joe ferguson "gamer" (upper right) was recently picked up on ebay for $385. the jackie slater lid (bottom right) has made the rounds quite a bit at the auction blocks and has sold for $2,100 in the past. fwiw it's one of the more convincing slater "gamers" that makes the rounds - there are several. the munchak lid has sold for $2,200 in the past.


...

[both-teams-played-hard]

Robert
This is the best information that this forum can possibly offer. You have cut the supply of "game worn helmets" in half. What's wrong with common players? These guys need to realize that every helmet doesn't need to be a Namath or Unitas.
Thanks for your time and energy!

P.S. I know a guy in San Diego, who saw a Unitas Chargers helmet at a flea market in the mid 70s. He was 10 years old and obviously couldn't afford it. It was $100 and could very well be the same one as the one you posted...

[Jake51]

Robert,

It has been said here many times, but thank you so much for your time and your information! Just fantastic!!

Had a question as well, I seem to remember seeing this Alzado lid in an auction a while back - did you see it and if so, do you remember what it went for?

Thanks again!

Tom

[cohibasmoker]

Robert
This is the best information that this forum can possibly offer. You have cut the supply of "game worn helmets" in half. What's wrong with common players? These guys need to realize that every helmet doesn't need to be a Namath or Unitas.
Thanks for your time and energy!

P.S. I know a guy in San Diego, who saw a Unitas Chargers helmet at a flea market in the mid 70s. He was 10 years old and obviously couldn't afford it. It was $100 and could very well be the same one as the one you posted...

BTPH - you are so right - helmets don't need to be a Namath or Unitas. I just got this Tom Randall Cowboys helmet and it says a whole lot about the character of the players who played back in the day. The helmet came with this email from the seller,

Back in the late 1970's I was the controller for a football helmet manufacturer in Florida. After the Super Bowl in 1979, we received a number of helmets from the Cowboys to refurbish and send back. It was determined that the Randall helmet needed to be replaced in it's entirety. I was able to take it home as a souviner. Unfortunately, that was the only Dallas item I had. Hope this helps fill in some of the history on this helmet. Enjoy.

As for Robert - many, many thanks for the information. A lucid thread without any personal attacks and plenty of great information from a guy who has probably "handled and owned" 100's of helmets.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

[nyjetsfan14]

I agree with the rest of the members and while, like most, I have expressed my gratitude on several other ocassions many thanks again for another truly great read. What I like most is that you not only do this research and provide the details for your own personal use but you obviosuly have a strong desire to assist/enlighten others by sharing thus making this a better and more enjoyable hobby. I know I am not the only one who looks forward to your posts, I always learn something new and look at pieces in a different light, for that I am very appreciative!

[princip]

Amazing pics as well. They did a really nice job with these.

One that intrigues me is this Jerry Rhome MacGregor clear shell. For one, I just saw it up on ebay, not too long ago: 64-66 Dallas....... (http://cgi.ebay.com/64-66-Dallas-Cowboys-MacGregor-M100-helmet-Staubach_W0QQitemZ300273267449QQcmdZViewItemQQptZL H_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300273267449&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A13%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)

Now, does anyone happen to have a picture of Jerry wearing this style helmet. I would love to see it. This helmet is unique in every way, and when I first saw the ebay auction I didn't think it was legit. However, now it seems to be?

Jerry Rhome Circa 1966 Dallas Cowboys Game Used Helmet (http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=88807&CurrentRow=121&Category=Game%20Used%20Football%20Uniforms%20and%2 0Equipment)

http://images.mastroauctions.com/images/Auction53/photographs/83096a.jpg

[kingjammy24]

What's wrong with common players? These guys need to realize that every helmet doesn't need to be a Namath or Unitas.

hey warren

i'm probably misinterpreting your statement here but i think the abundance of superstars/scarcity of commons in many niches has to do with folks recovering their costs in making these items up. i don't know what it would cost to make up a really convincing, top notch unitas helmet. i know if i were to make up a flawless early 90s ripken jersey, it'd probably cost me a few hundred. it wouldn't pay off to spend a few hundred to make up a jeffrey leonard shirt. if i spent a few hundred, i may as well go for the ripken in order to turn a good profit. plus, most of the big houses like mastro simply aren't interested in any "low dollar" items.

i'm surprised at how many extremely rare items manage to consistently show up, as opposed to seemingly more common items. you'd be surprised how easy it is to find a mantle jersey but if you're on the hunt for an andy pafko, you'll probably never find one. Heritage dug up babe ruth's 1933 all-star game shirt yet i can't find a john olerud jays jersey to save my life. it's crazy.

rudy.

[princip]

Robert, you mentioned goofy wording on some of these item descriptions, well, ya gotta love this regarding the Colt's logo.

Pertaining to the Johnny Unitas Late 1960s Baltimore Colts Signed Game Used Helmet (HOF) (http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=88794&CurrentRow=141)

"The gamer features the athlete's trademark, single-blue center stripe, as well as the club's famous horseshoe side logos in deliciously flavored minimal mil depth with proper color hue."

[aeneas01]

Amazing pics as well. They did a really nice job with these. One that intrigues me is this Jerry Rhome MacGregor clear shell. For one, I just saw it up on ebay, not too long ago: 64-66 Dallas....... (http://cgi.ebay.com/64-66-Dallas-Cowboys-MacGregor-M100-helmet-Staubach_W0QQitemZ300273267449QQcmdZViewItemQQptZL H_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300273267449&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A13%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318) Now, does anyone happen to have a picture of Jerry wearing this style helmet. I would love to see it. This helmet is unique in every way, and when I first saw the ebay auction I didn't think it was legit. However, now it seems to be? Jerry Rhome Circa 1966 Dallas Cowboys Game Used Helmet (http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=88807&CurrentRow=121&Category=Game%20Used%20Football%20Uniforms%20and%2 0Equipment)

the cowboys macgregor clear shell you saw on ebay is not the one currently in the mastro auction - btw the one on ebay sold for $530 and, fwiw, it was autographed by staubach. i have seen three of these cowboys clear shell macs hit the maket in the last couple of years, all identical 100mh lids with dungard dg105 facemasks.

the thing collectors need to keep in mind is that "back in the day" macgregor offered these helmets, nfl dressed, to the public through their catalogs and through sporting goods stores. their target audience was young boys and these helmets are out there. often times the helmets were packaged with facemasks including dg105 dungards - many were purchased for playing around in at the park and others were purchased for autographs. so you have to be careful when scooping up clearshell macs...

here are some shots from a 1967 macgregor catalog - the two kids can be seen wearing a falcons helmet and a colts helmet. you could pick up a two-bar dungard for $7.00 at the time or for $4.95 if you were buying for a team. also note that 1967 was before the 100mh clear shell was offered with removable "pegged" padding - padding was permanently sewn to the shell.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/mac01.jpg


here are a few shots of some macs that have sold during the last couple of years - a colts helmet with the same dungard (white), the cowboys helmet that just sold on ebay, a youth lid with the same type of dungard and a falcons helmet. there's an interesting story to the falcon's helmet - a woman listed it on ebay as a helmet that her husband purchased as a boy, a helmet he used for pop warner and backyard football. an ebay crook (vintageksusports) scooped it up and relisted it as a game worn falcon's helmet that he had acquired, along with other nfl gamers, from an old sports bar in texas. beautiful. btw i'm not saying that every mac clear shell with a dungard that comes down the road is a youth lid purchased from a catalog nor am i saying that all of the macs pictured below are not authentic gamers - i'm just saying that these lids were also sold to kids and never saw the inside of an nfl locker room.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/mac02.jpg



Robert, you mentioned goofy wording on some of these item descriptions, well, ya gotta love this regarding the Colt's logo.

Pertaining to the Johnny Unitas Late 1960s Baltimore Colts Signed Game Used Helmet (HOF) (http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=88794&CurrentRow=141)

"The gamer features the athlete's trademark, single-blue center stripe, as well as the club's famous horseshoe side logos in deliciously flavored minimal mil depth with proper color hue."

ha ha ha you beat me to it! i wanted to include that embarrassing quote when i posted about the lids but for the life of me could not remember which helmet it was attributed to - i went back and looked through all of the helmet lots a couple of times to find it but just couldn't locate it again! "deliciously"? can you believe it??? and btw i agree 100% - mastro did a very, very nice job with the photos.


BTPH - you are so right - helmets don't need to be a Namath or Unitas. I just got this Tom Randall Cowboys helmet and it says a whole lot about the character of the players who played back in the day.

you would think that a beautiful gamer would be enough, it is for me. but it's amazing how few gamers not attributed any particular player (or to lesser players) ever hit the auction blocks. where are they? i guess it could be argued that because these helmets did not belong to well known players they were deemed worthless and simply tossed and/or destroyed many moons ago. and that there is a disproportionate amount of vintage gamers once belonging to the league's most famous on the market simply because they were deemed worth preserving and were not tossed and/or destroyed.

i wish that was the case - unfortunately it seems to me that there is a disproportionate number of big name gamers out there simply because it is much more profitable to turn a no-name gamer into a hall of fame gamer without much difficulty given that most collectors are not at all up to speed on football helmets. but thanks to the net that is changing.

.....

[Rob L]

Robert, well done. I don't collect football helmets, in fact, don't pay attention to football until the playoffs start. But I really enjoy reading your threads on the football helmets. Well thought out and incredibly informative. Keep up the good work!!!

[both-teams-played-hard]

hey warren

i'm probably misinterpreting your statement here but i think the abundance of superstars/scarcity of commons in many niches has to do with folks recovering their costs in making these items up. i don't know what it would cost to make up a really convincing, top notch unitas helmet. i know if i were to make up a flawless early 90s ripken jersey, it'd probably cost me a few hundred. it wouldn't pay off to spend a few hundred to make up a jeffrey leonard shirt. if i spent a few hundred, i may as well go for the ripken in order to turn a good profit. plus, most of the big houses like mastro simply aren't interested in any "low dollar" items.

i'm surprised at how many extremely rare items manage to consistently show up, as opposed to seemingly more common items. you'd be surprised how easy it is to find a mantle jersey but if you're on the hunt for an andy pafko, you'll probably never find one. Heritage dug up babe ruth's 1933 all-star game shirt yet i can't find a john olerud jays jersey to save my life. it's crazy.

rudy.

You understood my point exactly! A jersey of a common player has more of a chance of being real. You've outlined all of the examples that give me this belief.

1,000,000 Lebrons can't be wrong! (another 900,000 Dwayne Wades).

[cohibasmoker]

Robert, you wrote the following:

you would think that a beautiful gamer would be enough, it is for me. but it's amazing how few gamers not attributed any particular player (or to lesser players) ever hit the auction blocks. where are they? i guess it could be argued that because these helmets did not belong to well known players they were deemed worthless and simply tossed and/or destroyed many moons ago. and that there is a disproportionate amount of vintage gamers once belonging to the league's most famous on the market simply because they were deemed worth preserving and were not tossed and/or destroyed.


Today, I got an email from the guy that sold me my Cowboys helmet: He wrote, in part the following:

I worked for a company called Medalist Gladiator in Leesburg, FL. I was the Controller for the company. I'm a CPA by trade.

When helmets were sent in for reconditioning, it usually went to another division of Medalist somewhere in Pennsylvania. I don't remember their name. We got some helmets for reconditioning from time to time. If the shell was bad, it would be destroyed to avoid it being used again. It was a liability issue. Product liability was a big reason alot of companies got out of the business. The upper end helmets had removable inserts for padding. The cheaper youth helmets had glue-in padding. Any other unsued parts were usually trashed...

Jim

[jdr3]

Robert,

The Fischer is beautiful. There is a question about it being in Super Bowl VII, however. In 1972 his helmet had a sticker on back just to the left of the 7. Could this sticker have been easily removed?

-Jim

[kingjammy24]

Robert,

The Fischer is beautiful. There is a question about it being in Super Bowl VII, however. In 1972 his helmet had a sticker on back just to the left of the 7. Could this sticker have been easily removed?

-Jim

jim

beyond the idea of the sticker being removed, the numbers in your photo are a considerable distance away from the center helmet stripes. (i'm sure i sound like an idiot there but i don't know what helmet folks call those things). on the mastro helmet, the numbers practically touch the stripes.

rudy.

[aeneas01]

jdr3: The Fischer is beautiful. There is a question about it being in Super Bowl VII, however. In 1972 his helmet had a sticker on back just to the left of the 7. Could this sticker have been easily removed?

kingjammy24: beyond the idea of the sticker being removed, the numbers in your photo are a considerable distance away from the center helmet stripes. (i'm sure i sound like an idiot there but i don't know what helmet folks call those things). on the mastro helmet, the numbers practically touch the stripes.when i stated "...the (mastro) lot description should point out that fischer most likely wore this very lid in the 1972 super bowl" i didn't mean to imply that fischer's helmet was retired immediately after the 1972 super bowl, never to be worn again, and therefore the auction lid could be matched to super bowl game photos of fischer. in fact helmets aren't typically put on ice after a super bowl game - they are processed in the same manner as any other season including sent out for reconditioning (stripped, cleaned, repainted, etc.) and readied for the next season.

as far as fischer is concerned, he continued to sport his gladiator lid after the 1972 super bowl, through the 1974 season. as such his helmet was undoubtedly reconditioned after the super bowl and therefore couldn't be expected to match his his super bowl lid in terms of decal placement. does this make sense?

speaking of fischer's gladiator, a few more comments: a) this helmet was featured at the "helmet hut" website (top left photo) but included the back nape padding (circled) - apparently this padding has since been lost given that it's not included in the mastro auction. b) fischer's gladiator gamer was fitted with additional back chinstrap snaps (bottom right photo, circled) presumably intended for use with a four-point chinstrap. while this is pretty standard with today's defensive back helmets, it wasn't in the early 70s. anyway the auction helmet reflects these snaps, identically located when compared to photos of fischer, although the snaps are missing and only the holes remain. c) the top right photo is a nice shot of the inside of fischer's gladiator, taken during the national anthem of 1972 super bowl. d) the rear decal jdr3 referred to is very interesting and i knew i had seen such a decal before - so i dug around my photos and found it (bottom left corner), a 1972 photo of chiefs player. i very much doubt it's a reconditioning decal given that if it were you would expect to find the same sort of decal on the other helmets as well. so what is it, what does it signify? hmm...

btw, given that no mention about the super bowl was mentioned in the mastro auction, perhaps a lucky bidder can pick this up for a steal!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/look.jpg

...

[jdr3]

Thank you! I thought the helmet looked much like the one he used in 73, but do not know how difficult it is not to scar the helmet itself when removing a sticker. One odd thing, the sticker itself looks like an add for Duke Ziebert's Restaurant, a prime Washington in the 70s. I will try to find the caricature in an old program to compare

[helmets]

Robert:

I was wondering why it was taking you so long to post about the Mastro auctions. Now that I see your post and know how much time and research you put into it, I wonder no longer. Great post as always.

I seem to have the same sentiments as you do on most. I think you increased the auction price on some. I may have to check my piggy bank for extra funds to cover the increase due to the "Aeneas01 premium"

Being a Packer fan and from Wisconsin, I am always interested in the Packer helmets. Yes, the Hornung did have a BD9 and chinstrap when it sold on HA, but I believe in the description of that auction that the mask and chinstrap were from a later period. I recall that anyways. Perhaps the new owner removed them as they were not "original" to the helmet.

Interesting story...
My father sold insurance in Wisconsin when I was growing up. - Employers Insurance of Wausau - later Wausau Insurance Companies. He was always bringing "stuff" home to me from his customers. He brought me home a Packer gamer when I was a kid. It had the suspension cut out of the helmet, but the rivets were still there - similar to a helmet lamp. I think the Packers did that for liability. It had a number on the rear - 20's, (24? 26? ) BD9 two bar, and the shell was cracked. I remember trying to wear it and the rivets hurt my head. I wore my Packer winter hat under it for "rivet protection." I had to cut the tassle off of the hat so the helmet sat right. That didn't work too well, so my father went to a fabric store and bought some foam rubber and tried to glue it into the helmet. The glue those days wasn't very good, and each time I would try and wear it, the padding would pull off. Well Santa went to Sears later that year and bought a Rawlings Air-Flo Packers for me, and the Packers Gamer was tossed into a closet. Needless to say the gamer was sold at a rummage sale when I was away at college. I remember seeing other Packer gamers growing up at flea markets, etc, and most had the suspensions removed - cut out. I think the team cut them out - faster and easier, but the reconditioners must have drilled out the rivets like the two on Mastro.

[aeneas01]

Thank you! I thought the helmet looked much like the one he used in 73, but do not know how difficult it is not to scar the helmet itself when removing a sticker. One odd thing, the sticker itself looks like an add for Duke Ziebert's Restaurant, a prime Washington in the 70s. I will try to find the caricature in an old program to compare

yes, i would say it's definitely the same helmet - decals can removed without scarring by reconditioners. if the sticker turns out to be an ad for that restaurant, i wonder how the same sticker on the chiefs helmet can be explained? a chain operation with a store in kansas city? fwiw players have a long history of adding personal decals to their helmets - ken "the snake" stabler sported a yellow happy face on the front of his lid, above his facemask, when with the raiders!




Today, I got an email from the guy that sold me my Cowboys helmet: He wrote, in part the following:

I worked for a company called Medalist Gladiator in Leesburg, FL. I was the Controller for the company. I'm a CPA by trade.

When helmets were sent in for reconditioning, it usually went to another division of Medalist somewhere in Pennsylvania. I don't remember their name. We got some helmets for reconditioning from time to time. If the shell was bad, it would be destroyed to avoid it being used again. It was a liability issue. Product liability was a big reason alot of companies got out of the business. The upper end helmets had removable inserts for padding. The cheaper youth helmets had glue-in padding. Any other unsued parts were usually trashed...

Jim

i would say this is very consistent with the conversations i've had with reconditioning companies in the past.





Had a question as well, I seem to remember seeing this Alzado lid in an auction a while back - did you see it and if so, do you remember what it went for?

Thanks again!

Tom

i'm pretty certain this is the first time i've seen the "alzado" helmet listed...



I just got this Tom Randall Cowboys helmet and it says a whole lot about the character of the players who played back in the day. The helmet came with this email from the seller,

Back in the late 1970's I was the controller for a football helmet manufacturer in Florida. After the Super Bowl in 1979, we received a number of helmets from the Cowboys to refurbish and send back. It was determined that the Randall helmet needed to be replaced in it's entirety. I was able to take it home as a souviner. Unfortunately, that was the only Dallas item I had. Hope this helps fill in some of the history on this helmet. Enjoy.that helmet is a real beauty - below is a shot of randall (#60), notice the extra thick/wide bumper indicating a gladiator helmet which is consistent with your lid. and here's a photo of an absolute beauty that sold at auction for an absolute song some time ago...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/photo01.jpg


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/photo02.jpg


rob l, both-teams-played-hard, nyjetsfan14 and the rest of you guys - thanks for the kind words!

...

[jdr3]

I noticed the Chiefs helmet had the same sticker after I wrote the previous post. There goes that theory.

[kingjammy24]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/look.jpg

...

on the bottom right photo, the sticker actually goes underneath the "center stripes". sort of interesting, no? mayhaps the stripes were put on after the sticker?

re: reconditioning
ok gotcha. not a concept most baseball collectors think of.

rudy.

[Nathan]

Mr. Aeneas,

This is incredible work; it really is.

Funny that the inability to find a Pafko jersey compared to a Mantle was brought up. In hockey, I don't know that anyone has ever been able to find a Russ Romaniuk jersey from any of his various stops (and there certainly were a lot of them). A couple days ago, one of them finally popped up on eBay.

Here's his statline if you want to see how many teams he played for.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdisplay.php?pid=4647

[aeneas01]

Robert:

I was wondering why it was taking you so long to post about the Mastro auctions. Now that I see your post and know how much time and research you put into it, I wonder no longer. Great post as always.

I seem to have the same sentiments as you do on most. I think you increased the auction price on some. I may have to check my piggy bank for extra funds to cover the increase due to the "Aeneas01 premium"

Being a Packer fan and from Wisconsin, I am always interested in the Packer helmets. Yes, the Hornung did have a BD9 and chinstrap when it sold on HA, but I believe in the description of that auction that the mask and chinstrap were from a later period. I recall that anyways. Perhaps the new owner removed them as they were not "original" to the helmet.

Interesting story...
My father sold insurance in Wisconsin when I was growing up. - Employers Insurance of Wausau - later Wausau Insurance Companies. He was always bringing "stuff" home to me from his customers. He brought me home a Packer gamer when I was a kid. It had the suspension cut out of the helmet, but the rivets were still there - similar to a helmet lamp. I think the Packers did that for liability. It had a number on the rear - 20's, (24? 26? ) BD9 two bar, and the shell was cracked. I remember trying to wear it and the rivets hurt my head. I wore my Packer winter hat under it for "rivet protection." I had to cut the tassle off of the hat so the helmet sat right. That didn't work too well, so my father went to a fabric store and bought some foam rubber and tried to glue it into the helmet. The glue those days wasn't very good, and each time I would try and wear it, the padding would pull off. Well Santa went to Sears later that year and bought a Rawlings Air-Flo Packers for me, and the Packers Gamer was tossed into a closet. Needless to say the gamer was sold at a rummage sale when I was away at college. I remember seeing other Packer gamers growing up at flea markets, etc, and most had the suspensions removed - cut out. I think the team cut them out - faster and easier, but the reconditioners must have drilled out the rivets like the two on Mastro.

great story! i would imagine that the rawlings store model packers lid was indeed quite a bit more comfortable than the gamer with protruding interior rivets! although i'm not quite sure how an equipment manager would go about cutting out a suspension unit while leaving the rivets cleanly intact, like a helmet lamp! i would think that if the team wanted to render a helmet useless for liability purposes, the easiest way would be to simply cut the suspension unit in half a dozen places around the crown support and be done with it. but, hey, odder things have taken place in equipment rooms!

so what do think about the "enhancing" of the rear numbers on those packers helmets?

speaking of flea markets, what a potential treasure trove! i have a few vintage helmets that were picked up at an east coast flea market almost 30 years ago - two belonged to a couple of hall of famers, no doubt about it. i'd rather not say much more about them - i made that mistake a couple of years ago and was bugged to no end, and i mean no end, by a couple of auction houses.

as a packers fan do you happen to know if nitschke ever wore a rawlings? i don't think so. nor did butkus as far as i can tell. but the hall of fame has nitschke and butkus gamers on display - both rawlings. speaking of the hall - great people. their researchers and archivists are tremendously helpful and more than willing to help you research anything if you are inclined to pay them a personal visit. i was told that access to their "vault", where they keep 95% of their inventory, is also available by appointment. yet having said that, their off the cuff knowledge can be somewhat lacking. for example, get this, i noticed they had the helmet bruce smith wore in the 1990 super bowl on display. interesting, eh? but guess what? it was riddell vsr4. i told their researcher that it wasn't smith's lid, that he wore a schutt, and that this fact could be easily verified. i was told that they would check it out although he was pretty certain it was smith's sb helmet because it had an american flag decal on the back just like smith's super bowl lid. mama mia! fwiw it appears that they did remove it!

...

[helmets]

Yes, "enhancing." There were a few other things on some of the helmets that were enhanced. Some of the masks on some of the helmets - to me, - IMO, have been "enhanced." In fact it looks like some of them have are hh repros, that have been "enhanced" to look original. If you look at the photos of the helmets where it shows the interior, and you look at the masks, they look very similar to the reproduction masks. I know you like the Pugh helmet, but that mask...look at the shape, look at how it shines, look at the color, look at the runs in the coating, and lastly... the helmet is "absolutely destroyed" but the mask does not have a mark on it.

Is it just me, or are Pat Fischer's numbers - new? They are very white compared to the stripes. Very white for almost 40 years old.

Why is it every GB Husky belonged to Davis? The shape of the side decals - compared to other Packer gamers. They look like the two pc reproduction decals that I have...

I don't think Nitschke ever wore a Rawlings. I could be wrong.

The Aneneas premium has really taken effect on the Atkins. I probably don't stand a chance on that one - 14 proxy bids already.

[helmets]

Yes, one Proxy on the Atkins was $1900, so that is where the bidding started. Anyone here bid on it?

Anyone here buy any of the helmets? Roger, I know you had to have bid on some...

The Hornung went for 3500 I believe. I was on the phone waiting for the Pitts to go and was trying to listen to the auctioneer. That's a far cry from the 10,700 that it brought in May 2007 from Heritage.

[RKGIBSON]

Helmets,

I did want the Adkin's helmet. It was #1 on my list.. Doug Adkin's lives close to a friend of mine in Humbolt TN. We spoke to him about the helmet. He sold it to a local sports dealer in 1999. He said it was the only helmet he was able to keep from his career. He is a great gentleman and I have looked for something of his for several years. My proxy was $1800.00. I would like to own this helmet if it ever comes up for sale or if the new owner wants to turn it for a quick buck.

I just screwed up and was not able to bid today. I called and the said they could not figure how to let me bid today. ??? If the numbers are right on the web, I did get six jerseys.

In my opinion this was a big loser for the owner of these items. To have a live auction on Monday was a joke. To not be able to bid from the internet was a joke. They cost their customer, and their self, thousands of dollars.

Roger

[aeneas01]

Helmets,

I did want the Adkin's helmet. It was #1 on my list.. Doug Adkin's lives close to a friend of mine in Humbolt TN. We spoke to him about the helmet. He sold it to a local sports dealer in 1999. He said it was the only helmet he was able to keep from his career. He is a great gentleman and I have looked for something of his for several years. My proxy was $1800.00. I would like to own this helmet if it ever comes up for sale or if the new owner wants to turn it for a quick buck.

I just screwed up and was not able to bid today. I called and the said they could not figure how to let me bid today. ??? If the numbers are right on the web, I did get six jerseys.

In my opinion this was a big loser for the owner of these items. To have a live auction on Monday was a joke. To not be able to bid from the internet was a joke. They cost their customer, and their self, thousands of dollars.

Roger


great info on atkins - that lid is a beauty. it's hit the blocks before and will probably hit the blocks again - but i'm not sure it will ever go for less. btw it looks like you and i had the same problems when trying to register for the "live" auction. what a disater of a format that auction was!

...

[gridman80]

Robert
This is the best information that this forum can possibly offer. You have cut the supply of "game worn helmets" in half. What's wrong with common players? These guys need to realize that every helmet doesn't need to be a Namath or Unitas.
Thanks for your time and energy!

P.S. I know a guy in San Diego, who saw a Unitas Chargers helmet at a flea market in the mid 70s. He was 10 years old and obviously couldn't afford it. It was $100 and could very well be the same one as the one you posted...

I was offered the Unitas chargers helmet 12 years ago at $2000 and passed...not a goldmine but better than the stock market. Great work Aeneas

[aeneas01]

I was offered the Unitas chargers helmet 12 years ago at $2000 and passed...not a goldmine but better than the stock market. Great work Aeneas

although the unitas bolts helmet appeared to be interesting, i would take one of the many gems in your collection over it any day of the week!

...

[genius]

The Lamonica Pro Bowl lid at the start of this thread just made an appearance on the Pro Bowl broadcast, great archive footage of he and John Madden at the 71 Pro Bowl.

[RKGIBSON]

Does anyone know where the Adkins helmet went? I got a picture from Doug in which he is holding the helmet. I would like to have this helmet for my collection.

Roger
irestorecars@sbcglobal.net

[aeneas01]

The Lamonica Pro Bowl lid at the start of this thread just made an appearance on the Pro Bowl broadcast, great archive footage of he and John Madden at the 71 Pro Bowl.

that was indeed great vintage footage but it was from the 1970 pro bowl, not the 1972 pro bowl (the mastro helmet was billed as lamonica's 1972 pro bowl lid). madden was the afc pb coach in the 1970, noll was was the afc pb coach in 1972. but from the quick glimpses i caught it did appear that lamonica was sporting a tk in that 1970 footage, which is the model in the mastro auction. fwiw the photos i've seen of lamonica in the 1970 pro bowl also seem to show him wearing a tk although i wouldn't say the photos are conclusive.


Does anyone know where the Adkins helmet went? I got a picture from Doug in which he is holding the helmet. I would like to have this helmet for my collection.

roger, would you mind sharing that photo?

...

[RKGIBSON]

Robert,

Here is a quick photo of some of the pictures that I got from Doug. He is a real gentleman. If you want a copy of the Saint picture with the helmet, email me your address and I'll send you one, he gave me two.

Roger
irestorecars@sbcglobal.net

[Jake51]

Hi,

Does anyone know what the Timmy Brown Pro Bowl helmet went for that Robert described earlier in this post?

Thanks,

Tom

[aeneas01]

many thanks to roger for sending me great photos of atkins as well as many other great photos from his fantastic collection!

...