Dave Grob and President Coolidge request your advice

[kingjammy24]

hi dave

this is in response to your recent post, found here: http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=568

let me preface everything by saying that disclosing a conflict of interest is a good thing, while entirely avoiding the conflict is a great thing. it's up to you whether you want to be good or great. as well, there's no doubt in my mind that being great costs more in time, effort, and money than being good. again, it's up to you.

"Folks, let’s face it and be honest about it… If you are running an auction house or selling items on E-Bay or at card show, your goal is to make money….Ouch…dirty as it may seem, it is the truth."

it's not the mere making of profit that folks see as "dirty" or the issue. it's how that profit is made that is the issue. REA, for example, racks up some very substantial auction totals. truly, i can't remember the last, or any, post on here deriding them. rob lifson is a straight-shooter who runs a fine house. noone could care less if he made $100 million a year. conversely, historic racks up paltry totals by comparison and is a constant source of criticism. clearly, folks don't have an issue with an auction house making profit, only with how that profit is made.

"if you expect it to have any impact on our decision making process, you should do more than just complain. Offer something well thought out and constructive. Take for example this golden nugget of knowledge:

“I think the whole authentication business is a scam....I agree with all that Mears is trying to set new levels of standards...but when you compare that level in this industry vs other industries in the REAL world, Mears' standards are still in the horse and buggy stage.”

What am I supposed to do with this? What are the other industries that we should be using as points of reference and what are “the lessons learned” and “best business practices” that we should consider or emulate? And yes, I am looking for specifics that would include some functional assessment as to the impact on both the internal and external operational environment.

Getting back to the sage commentary offered above, I clearly am not sure what the “REAL world” is."

while i don't want to put words into anyone's mouth, i think the "horse and buggy" and "real world" comments may have really referred to this hobby as a whole and it's complete lack of any real, formal oversight, regulations, governing authority, etc. any warm body off the street, with absolutely no training, credentials, or certifications, can open up an auction house for the cost of a business license, cram it full of nothing but ebay junk, authenticate it themselves, shill bid every single item, clear $30k from it, and there's absolutely nothing to oversee or regulate any of it. i'm sure you'd argue that such a house would quickly go out of business but if that were the case, then would lampson be the most prolific authenticator in the industry? it's outlandish that an auction industry that generates tens millions of dollars annually has absolutely no safeguards, standards, regulations or even commonly accepted practices. there aren't even regular, formal audits by an impartial authority for shill-bidding! it's a complete wild-west. having a hotdog cart on the streets of new york city requires more oversight and regulations. here in los angeles, the department of health regularly inspects the hygiene of restaurants and posts grades on the restaurant's front window and it's findings for each and every restaurant on a website. they'll do that for every hole-in-the-wall selling $3 bowls of ramen and generating $10k a year in revenue. conversely, you've got an auction house clearing $30 or $40 million a year and there is absolutely noone or nothing that verifies whether there's shill-bidding, whether the auction house owner is having his buddy, the authenticator, rubber stamp his own items, whether this authenticator intentionally downgrades items submitted to him so he can turn around and buy them cheaply to then stick into his buddies' auction and then jack the grade up and collect the kickbacks from his pal, or even if most of the descriptions are truthful and accurate. there's nothing or noone to mete out any penalties or fines. most other "real" industries don't and can't operate like that. for how many years did mastro tell prospective buyers that "they weren't dealers" and that other auction houses "offered items they owned", only to turn around and admit they consign their own items? how many times has doug allen altered an item, stuck it into his auctions, and not disclosed the alteration? it's lunacy. you know who's policing doug allen and lou lampson? doug allen and lou lampson. doug allen making policies to watch over doug allen. brilliant. it's like lou coming up with "lou's code 'o ethics" to protect folks from himself. doug was once a CPA and in order to obtain that title he had to pass a standard, formal exam (including an exam on ethics) as well as meet several formal, legal requirements in his state of licensure. had he not met those requirements, he wouldn't have been given the title. if doug had been found guilty of certain offenses, a formal, governing body had the authority and ability to yank his title away. dave, who's there to ensure that lou's work is of a satisfactory quality? the auction houses? the same ones that lou himself said "don't want to pay him if he turns an item down".

plumbers, lawyers, architects, cab drivers, nurses, contractors, doctors, accountants, investment advisors, farmers, hot dog vendors, real estate agents, ad nauseum, all licensed and/or certified in some way, all overseen by authorities who regulate their quality of work. that's the "real world". basically, i can think of no other industry that permits the amount of screw-ups, ineptitude, and brazen deception that this industry does.

you asked for industries to examine. here's a good example: a few years ago, there was a big fiasco over investment bankers/analysts. in short, an investment bank has bankers who make their money in banking deals with companies (taking them public, etc), and stock analysts who issue "objective" recommendations. both sides work for the same company. can you already see the conflict? what company is going to sign with a bank whose analysts have been recommending against their stock? you've got Company X, who the analysts (authenticators) feel is a garbage buy (fake jersey) so they say "hey public, this is garbage, don't buy it". job done for them. then you've got the investment bankers (auction house owners) who want to make some substantial deals with this same Company X but Company X tells the bankers that the only way they'll give them a $60million deal is if their analysts upgrade their recommendations. oh oh! the bankers want to make money. the analysts are preventing it. who wins? gee whiz, the bankers pressure the analysts into making rubbish recommendations and money wins out. perfect auction house/authenticator scenario. the only difference? the SEC came down on these firms for their conflicts of interest, forced the firms to change, fined them heavily, and returned money to investors. if you're interested: http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2003-54.htm

"OK then, what is the Cadillac (yes, I still have a thing about buying American) standard in very specific terms and how does MEARS get there?"

off the top of my head:

- a MEARS employee cannot have items, in which they have any ownership stake, evaluated by MEARS, disclosure or not. this includes all evaluations, including private and auction house.

- MEARS employees cannot consign items, in which they have any ownership stake, into MEARS' auctions.

- items submitted to MEARS' auction are evaluated by genuine third-party authenticators who have no interest in the items they've evaluated (read: not MEARS employees).

- lose the grading scale and revert to only 2 verdicts: "Likely to be Game-Used" or "Unlikely to be Game-Used". continue to include your worksheet and all relevant supporting documentation to show how you arrived at the conclusion.

- in it's auction house contracts, MEARS will not evaluate items owned, wholly or in part, by any auction house employees or family members.

- at it's new 15,000 sq ft facility, MEARS will construct wooden stocks for the purpose of humiliating shill-bidding auction house owners and dodgy authenticators. photos of said owners and authenticators with their heads and hands in the stocks will be available for sale on the MEARS website.

- MEARS will implement a "Where's Lou?" function to their website where collectors can report various Lampson sightings.

dave grob and myself would be interested to hear anyone else's suggestions towards improving MEARS.

rudy.

[trsent]

off the top of my head:

- a MEARS employee cannot have items, in which they have any ownership stake, evaluated by MEARS, disclosure or not. this includes all evaluations, including private and auction house.

- MEARS employees cannot consign items, in which they have any ownership stake, into MEARS' auctions.

- items submitted to MEARS' auction are evaluated by genuine third-party authenticators who have no interest in the items they've evaluated (read: not MEARS employees).

- lose the grading scale and revert to only 2 verdicts: "Likely to be Game-Used" or "Unlikely to be Game-Used". continue to include your worksheet and all relevant supporting documentation to show how you arrived at the conclusion.

- in it's auction house contracts, MEARS will not evaluate items owned, wholly or in part, by any auction house employees or family members.

- at it's new 15,000 sq ft facility, MEARS will construct wooden stocks for the purpose of humiliating shill-bidding auction house owners and dodgy authenticators. photos of said owners and authenticators with their heads and hands in the stocks will be available for sale on the MEARS website.

- MEARS will implement a "Where's Lou?" function to their website where collectors can report various Lampson sightings.

dave grob and myself would be interested to hear anyone else's suggestions towards improving MEARS.

rudy.

Rudy, you criticize others business and their practices, but what do you offer to their business? Are you a customer of theirs? They are not going to listen to your concepts about not consigning their own items - It has been stated by others that every auction house consigns items they own - This is not a secret practice, just not everyone will admit if they own an item that is in an auction.

Personally, I believe your suggestions are selfish and your concepts would be perfect in a perfect world, but at the end of the day you have no finical stake in MEARS and I do not believe you are a customer of theirs so I assume they look at your rants as just a jealous consumer who has nothing better to do but time and time again put their concepts down.

From what I have been told MEARS will fully disclose ownership and authentication for all items in their auction and if you do not like it, do not bid and keep publicly attacking this company time and time again when they have a track record that stands above most track records in this industry.

Track record for integrity, honesty, availability and full disclosure.

They will discuss concerns of issues with the public, even the public that is not a customer of theirs such as yourself, Rudy. They are fully available to answer questions about items that they have authenticated. They may or may not change a grade but at least you will get a detailed answer about how they made their final grade and determination. They will let the public know items they own in their sales and if they authenticated the item.

They are not going to change their policy of selling their own items because Rudy doesn't approve. Rudy generally appears to be a loud mouth collector who picks and chooses who he doesn't approve of in this industry and time and time again he complains about their business practices. He has done a lot of good in photo-matching techniques but he also has time and time again attacked the honest in this industry.

Yes, I will state it again, and Rudy states that if we do not know who is doing it, nothing can be done, but I think that is a joke. Full ownership, authentication (or questionable 3rd party authentication of their owned items) disclosure is offered by MEARS. If every auction house owned up to this policy, people such as Rudy would not sleep well at night. It is going on all over the industry and a company steps forward with full disclosure of ownership and in-house authentication to be up-front and honest of their intentions and Rudy tells them they should only accept consignments.

Nice idea, if you saw Troy Kinunen's and Dave Bushing's personal inventories you would know you are wasting your fingers typing your concepts as they are setting up an auction house to compliment their for sale site to sell their own merchandise.

It is clear, you have time and time again attacked MEARS for honesty and integrity. You do not have to like the grades they assign, but there comes a point where it is not your business other than you do not like their full disclosure policy and you find it to be a conflict of interest.

Oh wait, we already know they openly admit this is a conflict of interest so they fully disclose such to make it clear their intentions are known.

Years ago, before MEARS, I used to sell items that I wrote a personal letter of authenticity for. I owned the items and I wrote a TRS Enterprises letter to guarantee the authenticity. This was a conflict of interest, and I never disclosed I owned the items I was selling (never thought of it) was it?

Now, why don't you waste more time point by point attacking my post and make rude, obnoxious, attempting to be humorous comments for each one instead of just admitting you are not going to win this one as MEARS will sell their own items at auction, just as every major auction house does, just in this auction, MEARS will let the bidders know which items they own and authenticate in house due to their full disclosure policy.

Some people never give up, and then attack those attempting to sell the right way, honest to their customers, while there is an industry full of people doing the thing and not disclosing diddley (Bo).

[lund6771]

Joel...

what line of work are you in?

[jdr3]

Good question. Joel comes on here with his holier than thou attitude like he is above reproach. When asked what he had done to help the hobby by identifying dealers who were, to say the least, suspect, he replied, "If I wanted to name any company I would have named them. If you look over the history of this discussion forum, a name may be clear to you." What great moral courage that took. Translation: I am too much of a yellow belly to put my money where my posts are. I long for the days when you honored your self imposed exile.

[3arod13]

Nobody's likes the truth! I'm sick of so many people sitting back and keeping their mouths shut, when they also agree. You know what goes on, yet you'd rather have guys like Rudy do the talking, so you don't put yourselves out there.

We live in a society that is greedy and all about making money. No morales. No integrity. No honesty.

[RKGIBSON]

MEARS will find out soon that their is no money to be made buying good jerseys, at market prices, and auctioning them off. They will only make money when collectors submit their items and they charge the commission fees usually totaling to 30% when you count both sides. So come on everyone, send you good stuff in so they can make 30% and you can lose your ass.

Roger

[trsent]

Joel...

what line of work are you in?


Good question. Joel comes on here with his holier than thou attitude like he is above reproach. When asked what he had done to help the hobby by identifying dealers who were, to say the least, suspect, he replied, "If I wanted to name any company I would have named them. If you look over the history of this discussion forum, a name may be clear to you." What great moral courage that took. Translation: I am too much of a yellow belly to put my money where my posts are. I long for the days when you honored your self imposed exile.

I don't understand - Why the personal attacks?

By the way Jim Reed, I remember the quoted thread above, I was referring to Historic Auctions, but I didn't wish to name them by name at the time, but thanks for bringing it up again, like it has anything to do with the discussion at hand. Keep taking cheap shots at me, really mature. You call me a "yellow belly"? What does that mean? I am here, I voice my views, if you don't like them - Block my posts and live in your closed minded world.

I also sign all my posts with my email and my name - No hidden agenda here - I am real and I can be contacted over my views anytime.

As for the line of work I am in, what does that have to do with anything? Pete Peschel, please do not attack me again. Go back to your basement with your bricks and attack some football jerseys before you attack me. Nice to see the usual idiots attack my posts instead of debating the facts.

I SAY IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN - IF YOUR ARGUMENT IS WEAK - YOU ATTACK THE PERSON MAKING THE COMMENTS. THIS IS HOW WEAK PEOPLE ARGUE WHEN THEY CANNOT FACE FACTS.

[kingjammy24]

hi joel

two questions for you. don't worry, neither of them are funny.

1) clearly, you're an extremely fervent supporter of MEARS and by using the term "extremely fervent" i may be understating things. i haven't even seen troy or dave come to such zealous defense of their company as you manage to do. i'm curious if your constant, almost rabid, defense of MEARS has anything to do with the fact that you're a "MEARS Certified Dealer" (apparently a self-created term that even confused Troy when you first made it up) and all of the game-used items that you flip on Ebay come with MEARS certs? that is, do you fear that if folks begin to question or even lose faith in MEARS that your sales may be negatively impacted? do you feel that the louder you trumpet MEARS' greatness, the more profit you can realize on your MEARS-certed items on ebay?

2) what do you collect? in reading over 1500 of your posts, i've never been able to figure it out. i don't mean what do you sell on ebay. i mean what do you personally collect? where does your collecting niche lie?

rudy.

[trsent]

Nobody's likes the truth! I'm sick of so many people sitting back and keeping their mouths shut, when they also agree. You know what goes on, yet you'd rather have guys like Rudy do the talking, so you don't put yourselves out there.

We live in a society that is greedy and all about making money. No morales. No integrity. No honesty.

You know something funny, I receive emails, calls and people at shows tell me all the time that they love my posts but they do not wish to post on the forum because they are tired of being attacked for debating a subject.

Here is a real email I received earlier in the week, quoted word for word, just the name at the bottom was removed:

"Dear Joel,
I wanted to tell you that I always enjoyed reading your posts as I've found them to be well thought out and educational. I also admire the way you argue your points (as you are currently now) in an articulate and professional manner. As for me, I'm through with posting there. I've grown weary of the egotistical ramblings of the self proclaimed experts and the immature nature of their postings. Mostly the sarcastic personal attacks on members have soured me. Heaven forbid you disagree with them. My last post in the current MEARS thread shows this I believe. I've been collecting for over 15 years and I felt I had some knowledge to offer the forum. I have no desire to do so now. Lastly, please do not abandon your stance in the MEARS controversy or others, rather continue to post your views and not be bullied. I hope you don't mind me emailing you directly. Feel free to contact me when time permits if you like.
Respectfully,
Your friend"

What is too bad is too many people will not comment on this forum for whatever reason. I do not have to have fans or a following. I post what I believe. If my post appears to be an attack on Rudy, it is not. I just find it funny that post and post again is over the same topics, now he has suggested (as asked) for how MEARS can make Rudy happy and he gives suggestions which are not realistic.

So, I received the following email after my post, again, I will remove the name but I will copy it word for word as it is interesting:

"Good points Joel on the GUF. I notice you are winning the battle and gaining more support, not just for your views, but for you as a contributor. If Rudy wants a real crusade, he should start a post asking:

Question to Lou Lampson: Since 2004 (date MEARS was created) Have you consigned items to auction houses that you authenticated? Do you have a disclosure policy when consigning items to auction. Which auction houses have you consigned to? Have you consigned to AMI or Heritage, authenticated your items, and offere disclosure?

John Taube: same question

Mastro Auctions (because you use Lou) Have you accepted consignments from Lou Lampson, John Taube without disclosure

AMI : Have you accepted consignments from Lou Lampson, John taube without disclosure

Heritage: same question

Vintage authentics: same question

If you have, how come only Dave Bushing is criticized. Answer, nobody knows because they don't disclose."

Interesting read. I wish these people would post for them self, but I appreciate the emails with support for my posts and concepts that are ignored because MEARS has a honest, integrity filled policy: They offer full disclosure.

In fact as Tony has found out in the past week, if you have a question about a MEARS letter (or a SCD Authentic letter) you can post on here and you can email and even talk to MEARS about your concerns and they will address them as they take their business very seriously. I challenge any other 3rd party authenticator to show so much attention to detail and customer concerns.

[trsent]

hi joel

two questions for you. don't worry, neither of them are funny.

1) clearly, you're an extremely fervent supporter of MEARS and by using the term "extremely fervent" i may be understating things. i haven't even seen troy or dave come to such zealous defense of their company as you manage to do. i'm curious if your constant, almost rabid, defense of MEARS has anything to do with the fact that you're a "MEARS Certified Dealer" (apparently a self-created term that even confused Troy when you first made it up) and all of the game-used items that you flip on Ebay come with MEARS certs? that is, do you fear that if folks begin to question or even lose faith in MEARS that your sales may be negatively impacted? do you feel that the louder you trumpet MEARS' greatness, the more profit you can realize on your MEARS-certed items on ebay?

2) what do you collect? in reading over 1500 of your posts, i've never been able to figure it out. i don't mean what do you sell on ebay. i mean what do you personally collect? where does your collecting niche lie?

rudy.

Rudy, I have not been selling anything major on eBay recently, what is your point? What do I collect? Why? What does it have to do with the discussion? Nothing? I do not believe I have sold an item with a MEARS letter on eBay for over six months now. Just my decisions not to sell many items on eBay at this time, I am tired of the trends of poor sales on eBay of this type of merchandise.

The MEARS Certified title was something Troy and I agreed to in his office a few years ago, but if you look at my posts now on The MEARS Forum, I sign them "Un-Certified MEARS Certified Dealer". What does this have to do with anything? You are losing your side of the debate so put me down because you have nothing positive to add.

I like your new signature - You attack people and concepts on this forum and though much of your work has been positive, it appears your vendetta against Dave Bushing has reached a new low - You have to attack me because you are losing your side of the argument.

You are losing your debate, so personally attack me.

I SAY IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN - IF YOUR ARGUMENT IS WEAK - YOU ATTACK THE PERSON MAKING THE COMMENTS. THIS IS HOW WEAK PEOPLE ARGUE WHEN THEY CANNOT FACE FACTS.

In other news, I do not believe you have to be a collector to post on this forum. I do have a large collection of checks that people bounced on me over the years. As for my other collection niches, what does it have to do with our conversation, again?

[lund6771]

I don't understand - Why the personal attacks?

By the way Jim Reed, I remember the quoted thread above, I was referring to Historic Auctions, but I didn't wish to name them by name at the time, but thanks for bringing it up again, like it has anything to do with the discussion at hand. Keep taking cheap shots at me, really mature. You call me a "yellow belly"? What does that mean? I am here, I voice my views, if you don't like them - Block my posts and live in your closed minded world.

I also sign all my posts with my email and my name - No hidden agenda here - I am real and I can be contacted over my views anytime.

As for the line of work I am in, what does that have to do with anything? Pete Peschel, please do not attack me again. Go back to your basement with your bricks and attack some football jerseys before you attack me. Nice to see the usual idiots attack my posts instead of debating the facts.

I SAY IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN - IF YOUR ARGUMENT IS WEAK - YOU ATTACK THE PERSON MAKING THE COMMENTS. THIS IS HOW WEAK PEOPLE ARGUE WHEN THEY CANNOT FACE FACTS.

Joel...why do you think my question is attacking you?

I simply wanted to compare this situation with the line of work that you are in....I'm in the construction business...we are regulated by codes, standards, and architects

Nobody is attacking anything except for you....and idiots?

Go find that rock again

[otismalibu]

Joel,

Hugh Jackman's wife emailed me a couple days back saying she still considers me the Sexiest Man Alive.

She wanted to post that comment here, but said the board is littered with smart asses, and she's done with it.

Oh, gotta run. Tiger is texting me...needs more rehab tips.

[trsent]

Joel,

Hugh Jackman's wife emailed me a couple days back saying she still considers me the Sexiest Man Alive.

She wanted to post that comment here, but said the board is littered with smart asses, and she's done with it.

Oh, gotta run. Tiger is texting me...needs more rehab tips.

Who is Huge Jackman and who is Hugh Jackman's wife?

Who cares?

[trsent]

Joel...why do you think my question is attacking you?

I simply wanted to compare this situation with the line of work that you are in....I'm in the construction business...we are regulated by codes, standards, and architects

Nobody is attacking anything except for you....and idiots?

Go find that rock again

I think my signature states that I am buying sports memorabilia, coins, bullion and vintage US Currency. I am sorry if you do not know that I deal in sports memorabilia (trading cards, autographed memorabilia and game used memorabilia), I conduct autograph sessions with professional athletes about 2-6 times on the average month and I deal in rare coins and currency.

Do you smell what The Rock is cookin'?

16042

[kingjammy24]

"Rudy, I have not been selling anything major on eBay recently, what is your point?"

joel, my question didn't specify whether your sales were recent or not. again, does your fervent defense of MEARS have anything to do with the notion that if folks began to lose faith in MEARS, your sales would be negatively affected? i believe it's a relevant question that goes to your real motivations.

myself, i'm not a dealer (unless you count 2 jerseys i sold from my personal collection in order to refocus it and took a loss on both). i've never been an authenticator or worked in an auction house. i have no industry or hobby affiliations. by trade, i'm a software designer.

"What do I collect? Why?"

well i just noticed that it's a rather odd thing to read over 1500 of a member's posts, not including those on the old forum, and have absolutely no idea what he collects. howard's a phillies man, steinmetz is into cubbie shirts, stangel's into old yankees and chargers shirts, i'm a blue jays man, greg otismalibu's a dr.j collector, aeneas enjoy vintage football lids, caravello's a mattingly collector, i could go on and on. but you?

"I do not believe you have to be a collector to post on this forum. I do have a large collection of checks that people bounced on me over the years."

well no you don't but it's certainly an odd place to come for someone who doesn't collect anything but bounced checks. i'm starting to wonder if you just traverse the internet looking for squabbles, regardless of what the forum is about. stop in at the persian-cat-breeders forum and ruffle a few feathers there then drop in to see the folks at the camaro-lovers forum and let them know how crazy they are. any forum will do, doesn't even matter what the topic is.

anyway, as to your anonymous admirer:

lampson: if your admirer has any way for me to contact lampson, be it email, fax, phone number, anything - please let me know and i will gladly contact him. i have been told he's unreachable. besides, is your admirer saying that i haven't been critical of lampson on this forum?

taube: john once told me "We do not grade the bats we sell for obvious reasons." i assume this meant that if he were selling a bat, he wouldn't grade it. unless john lied to me?

gfc/historic/vintage/mastro/etc: have asked, no replies. sure, i'll buy the notion that mears/bushing gets criticized for things they've admitted to while others simply keep quiet. i suppose that's the risk you run when you admit to things.

anyway, i'm off to read some rudy fan club letters myself. i always enjoy the ones that start off "i never thought i'd feel this way about a complete stranger..."

rudy.

[kingjammy24]

joel,

allow me to rephrase my question: if you weren't an ebay dealer who realizes profits from MEARS certs, would you be vehemently defending MEARS' policies in the same manner as you are now?

i realize no profits or loss of profits from MEARS. my opinion stems solely from my genuine interest in the hobby.

if you have the time, i'm dying to know what telling someone to "Go back to your basement with your bricks" means. it sounds like a great insult that i'd like to start using. up until now i've been using george costanza's "stuff your sorrys in a sack, mister" but telling someone to "go back to their basement with their bricks" is even better, once i figure out what it means.

rudy.

[trsent]

"Rudy, I have not been selling anything major on eBay recently, what is your point?"

joel, my question didn't specify whether your sales were recent or not. again, does your fervent defense of MEARS have anything to do with the notion that if folks began to lose faith in MEARS, your sales would be negatively affected? i believe it's a relevant question that goes to your real motivations.

myself, i'm not a dealer (unless you count 2 jerseys i sold from my personal collection in order to refocus it and took a loss on both). i've never been an authenticator or worked in an auction house. i have no industry or hobby affiliations. by trade, i'm a software designer.

"What do I collect? Why?"

well i just noticed that it's a rather odd thing to read over 1500 of a member's posts, not including those on the old forum, and have absolutely no idea what he collects. howard's a phillies man, steinmetz is into cubbie shirts, stangel's into old yankees and chargers shirts, i'm a blue jays man, greg otismalibu's a dr.j collector, aeneas enjoy vintage football lids, caravello's a mattingly collector, i could go on and on. but you?

"I do not believe you have to be a collector to post on this forum. I do have a large collection of checks that people bounced on me over the years."

well no you don't but it's certainly an odd place to come for someone who doesn't collect anything but bounced checks. i'm starting to wonder if you just traverse the internet looking for squabbles, regardless of what the forum is about. stop in at the persian-cat-breeders forum and ruffle a few feathers there then drop in to see the folks at the camaro-lovers forum and let them know how crazy they are. any forum will do, doesn't even matter what the topic is.

anyway, as to your anonymous admirer:

lampson: if your admirer has any way for me to contact lampson, be it email, fax, phone number, anything - please let me know and i will gladly contact him. i have been told he's unreachable. besides, is your admirer saying that i haven't been critical of lampson on this forum?

taube: john once told me "We do not grade the bats we sell for obvious reasons." i assume this meant that if he were selling a bat, he wouldn't grade it. unless john lied to me?

gfc/historic/vintage/mastro/etc: have asked, no replies. sure, i'll buy the notion that mears/bushing gets criticized for things they've admitted to while others simply keep quiet. i suppose that's the risk you run when you admit to things.

anyway, i'm off to read some rudy fan club letters myself. i always enjoy the ones that start off "i never thought i'd feel this way about a complete stranger..."

rudy.

Rudy, I do not have a collection of game used item. I learned years ago, when my part time business that started around 1985 became my primary source of income starting around 1990 until present day today.

Back then I learned it is more fun for me to be willing to sell everything so I have something do to - Find another or at worst find something else to buy and sell. Though I have kept many items for personal reasons, they are not your reasons.

As for me being concerned about MEARS letters being hurt by your attack against their company has nothing to do with my future sales. I am not concerned for that reason, but you keep digging and maybe you'll figure out the angle that you so seek.

Sleep well, find more issues to attack me on personally since you do not like INTEGRITY - HONESTY - FULL DISCLOSURE - CUSTOMER RESPONSE in a major company.

You rather have them use another authenticator for their items. Other than MeiGray, what authenticator do you suggest? I already explained why MeiGray is not a reasonable alternative due to the fact that they will not look at every item. You are not in the business, even though I offered to start an authentication company with you a long, long time ago.

Then again, don't bother - MEARS is not going to change for you. Authentication is too expensive of a service to have everything authenticated elsewhere.

Here is an obvious question for you to explain why this authentication is acceptable but MEARS is not in your view:

How come Upper Deck Authenticated can have people autograph items and they give authentication for the items and they sell them on their web site? Shouldn't they have another company certify the items before they sell them?

Same question, insert: Steiner Sports (autographs and game used memorabilia)

Same question, insert: MeiGray (game used memorabilia)

[trsent]

joel,

allow me to rephrase my question: if you weren't an ebay dealer who realizes profits from MEARS certs, would you be vehemently defending MEARS' policies in the same manner as you are now?

i realize no profits or loss of profits from MEARS. my opinion stems solely from my genuine interest in the hobby.

if you have the time, i'm dying to know what telling someone to "Go back to your basement with your bricks" means. it sounds like a great insult that i'd like to start using. up until now i've been using george costanza's "stuff your sorrys in a sack, mister" but telling someone to "go back to their basement with their bricks" is even better, once i figure out what it means.

rudy.

Rudy, am I friends with Troy Kinunen? Yes. Does Troy have my cell phone number? Yes. Did I miss two calls from Troy earlier today as my cell phone is on silent? Yes. Have I had breakfast with Troy? No. Have I had lunch with Troy? Yes. Have I had dinner with Troy? Yes. Have I sat in Troy's office discussing theory? Yes. Have I disagreed with Troy? Yes. (See my theory of auction houses who do not sign the MEARS Action House Contract Policy not being able to submit to MEARS debate) Does Troy ask me to post on this forum? No. I just believe in him, his company and his concept.

Does my belief that MEARS will be hurt by your arguments will hurt my personal business? Maybe, but I am not concerned about this theory as much as you attacking my friend's company and open disclosure policy.

If this attack was on a similar company I respect, say Game Used Universe, I would feel the same way and give the same return comments.

Sure, you have your fans and followers. People have your private email address? I don't, but people know they can email me if they wish to give me any views or concerns or just talk.

[jdr3]

Joel,

From the inordinate amount of replies you have made in just 2 hours it is obvious your subconscious is racked with guilt because you know every rebuttal to your posts in this chain have been based in truth and fact. Me thinks thou dost protest too much. How many times in your life have you admitted to being wrong? I cannot remember one during your long and blathering tenure on this otherwise useful forum.

Jim Reed
Who could not care less what your grandfather looked like, although he bears a strong resemblence to Julius Rosenburg.

[kingjammy24]

How come Upper Deck Authenticated can have people autograph items and they give authentication for the items and they sell them on their web site? Shouldn't they have another company certify the items before they sell them?

Same question, insert: Steiner Sports (autographs and game used memorabilia)

Same question, insert: MeiGray (game used memorabilia)

1) upper deck: because upper deck representatives personally witness the autographs being signed.

2) steiner: because steiner goes into the clubhouse and personally collects the bats and jerseys.

3) meigray: because meigray personally tags each jersey before the game and then goes in and personally collects them after the game.

are troy and dave now personally collecting game-used items after the game? which one of them went into the browns locker room in 1962 to get that jersey from jim brown? i'm guessing it must've been bushing because troy hadn't been born yet. maybe it was miedema though?

rudy.

[trsent]

1) upper deck: because upper deck representatives personally witness the autographs being signed.

2) steiner: because steiner goes into the clubhouse and personally collects the bats and jerseys.

3) meigray: because meigray personally tags each jersey before the game and then goes in and personally collects them after the game.

are troy and dave now personally collecting game-used items after the game? which one of them went into the browns locker room in 1962 to get that jersey from jim brown? i'm guessing it must've been bushing because troy hadn't been born yet. maybe it was miedema though?

rudy.

Rudy, wait -

Does Steiner certifiy New York Yankees jersey from the past that may have come from The Yankees, but they never saw worn?

Does MeiGray watch the tagged jersey get put on the players back and then taken off?

Even if the answer is "Yes" to both, it doesn't matter - How can they authenticate jersey and then sell them with their LOAs? Isn't this a conflict of interested? (I personally think both companies are fine, but it is a similar practice with no issues by Rudy)

D

[trsent]

Joel,

From the inordinate amount of replies you have made in just 2 hours it is obvious your subconscious is racked with guilt because you know every rebuttal to your posts in this chain have been based in truth and fact. Me thinks thou dost protest too much. How many times in your life have you admitted to being wrong? I cannot remember one during your long and blathering tenure on this otherwise useful forum.

Jim Reed
Who could not care less what your grandfather looked like, although he bears a strong resemblence to Julius Rosenburg.

Jim, yes, both sides have valid points, I do not disagree with such. I just do not understand where the debate is going if MEARS admits they are committing a conflict of interest so they fully disclose such to the public.

I am about to leave for dinner now, I wanted to stay home to watch the Chicago Blackhawks game in Toronto. Great game, Hawks came back from 3-0 down to win 5-4 in overtime for their third win on the road in a row during their yearly circus road trip.

What is your line about my grandfather? Did I post his picture from the Chez Parie on here one day? Glad you are taking the time to read through my hundreds of posts to find that one. He died in 1982 and his last wife (my grandmother died before I was born) told me last night at dinner how she used to go to all sporting events with Grandpa in Chicago. I told he we would go to a hockey game before the end of the year. I am so excited to take one of my two remaining Grandmothers to a hockey game at 90! Aren't you excited?

[trsent]

Joel,

From the inordinate amount of replies you have made in just 2 hours it is obvious your subconscious is racked with guilt because you know every rebuttal to your posts in this chain have been based in truth and fact. Me thinks thou dost protest too much. How many times in your life have you admitted to being wrong? I cannot remember one during your long and blathering tenure on this otherwise useful forum.

Jim Reed
Who could not care less what your grandfather looked like, although he bears a strong resemblence to Julius Rosenburg.

Jim, looking at the thread below:

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=17809

It appears you like to pick on me and bait me and then brag about it.

Why this pattern?

By the way, the only thing I feel guilty about is that my wife is waiting to go out to dinner and I am wasting time being baited by you again so you can insult me, my tact and my integrity.

[Moustache Gang]

Geez,

I know Troy too, and I have his phone number and by gosh Troy emailed me three times today while he was at the show in Chicago!!! And one of Troy's largest articles ever written on the MEARS website was about me.

Have I had lunch with Troy? No. Have I had dinner with Troy? No. But I did have lunch with former U.S. Department of Homeland Security Tom Ridge and I was nominated to a post on his homeland security panel. But that means jack squat. Just the same as has half of Joel's posts.

I too believe that MEARS is the best system that I have have ever observed. Do they have issues? Yes. Do I have problems with their scoring system? You bet I do and I have pointed them out on this website and on the MEARS website. I have serious issues when a person can slap a horrendously fake name, and fake numbers on a 1971 Oakland A's jersey and MEARS deems it game worn by Reggie Jackson. And by the way did I mention the jersey had an outline of the #4 on front and back before somebody slapped a #9 JACKSON on it??? Oh yes it was worn by Reggie because somebody stuck a 9 and name on the jersey. Fabulous assessment of this game used jersey used by a common A's player!!!


Rudy I have no bricks in my basement.

Mark

[jdr3]

Excited, no. Nauseas, however, from you pathetic attempt to turn every post into some needlessly dramatic me against the world diatribe. All the violins in the world play for you and your grandmother and grandfather, and their needless place on this forum. It brought tears to my eyes how you will take her to a ball game. Please reinstate your self imposed exile. I love how everybody who supports you wants to be anonymous. Do you really expect anyone to believe this crap you throw out?

[joelsabi]

--a company is in business to make money and if they limit their profits by just selling the hardwares that people have give them to auction they are limiting themselves.

--conflict of interests is difficult to avoid in a narrow business with very little quality options.

--full disclosure is the compromise of this imperfect market.

--more auction items in an auction means more interest for consumers and if auctioneers want to sell their own stuff why not. its their business.

[kingjammy24]

Rudy, wait -

Does Steiner certifiy New York Yankees jersey from the past that may have come from The Yankees, but they never saw worn?

Does MeiGray watch the tagged jersey get put on the players back and then taken off?

Even if the answer is "Yes" to both, it doesn't matter - How can they authenticate jersey and then sell them with their LOAs? Isn't this a conflict of interested? (I personally think both companies are fine, but it is a similar practice with no issues by Rudy)

D

joel

you're flailing. steiner's not an authenticator, they're a dealer. in their words, a "sports marketing firm". you're confusing someone who simply sells a jersey with someone who explicitly grades and authenticates a jersey and charges for the service of "authentication". when steiner sold their old yankees shirts, in many cases they didn't even know who wore them. there was no "authenticating" per se. bob malandro and sean mahoney wouldn't call themselves authenticators in a million years. on many shirts, malandro didn't even check the rosters. steiner's letters simply said "here's a #24 jersey. not sure who wore it. we got it from the yankees. enjoy". hardly an authentication. same deal with upper deck. what's to "authenticate" when you're literally watching jordan sign the photo in front of you? upper deck is a sports marketing firm as is steiner. neither are viewed as "authenticators". neither issue grades. meigray sells pieces that it collects directly after games and it also authenticates older collector-submitted pieces. meigray is both a dealer and an authenticator.
they don't "authenticate" the pieces they collect after games because there's nothing to authenticate. stick a unique ID on a jersey, give the jersey back to the player and have him use it, collect the jersey after he's used it and sell it. where's the authentication?
MEARS on the other hand is an authenticator (and dealer). MEARS' letters and corresponding worksheets are clear and obvious authentications. i've never heard anyone consider steiner or upper deck "authenticators". they just acquire items and resell them. no authentication. they do come with letters that state the item came from upper deck or steiner but that's it. they're simply letters of provenance, not authentications. the "LOA" term is extremely loose.

rudy.

[earlywynnfan]

Can I officially ask for this p*ssing contest to be over?????? It's going nowhere, people!


Rudy: MEARS has a conflict of interest. You see it. MEARS sees it. We all see it. Even Joel sees it. WE GET IT!! However, with very few options out there for cross-examining items, and also the fact of handing money to a competitor to do a job that you can do as well or better must be galling, this situation may, unfortunately, be the most practical under current conditions. I do not think there are enough quality options out there to have a true checks-and-balances system in place like you (and the rest of us) would like to see. Perhaps most collectors think like I do: I'd rather have something that Bushing personally owned and authenticated himself than the same item looked at by Lampson (obviously), Grey Flannel, or the men behind the curtain at Mastro.

Joel: You love the MEARS gang and how they do business. You think they have the best system out there. WE GET IT!! That's why they are probably the most respected group today. But please listen to me: You are repeating yourself over and over. And over. Please, let it go!


I'm sure everyone who has read these threads this far is educated enough in the biz to see what the issues are, and have and will continue to use their wallets to "choose sides." But these threads have amounted to sniping back and forth and back and forth, and they aren't adding to the knowledge of anyone.

ADMIN: I THINK IT'S TIME TO LOCK THESE THREADS before it just gets more personal and angry.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

[trsent]

--a company is in business to make money and if they limit their profits by just selling the hardwares that people have give them to auction they are limiting themselves.

--conflict of interests is difficult to avoid in a narrow business with very little quality options.

--full disclosure is the compromise of this imperfect market.

--more auction items in an auction means more interest for consumers and if auctioneers want to sell their own stuff why not. its their business.

Thank you - The word "compromise" fits perfectly here.


Excited, no. Nauseas, however, from you pathetic attempt to turn every post into some needlessly dramatic me against the world diatribe. All the violins in the world play for you and your grandmother and grandfather, and their needless place on this forum. It brought tears to my eyes how you will take her to a ball game. Please reinstate your self imposed exile. I love how everybody who supports you wants to be anonymous. Do you really expect anyone to believe this crap you throw out?

Do you ever post anything but abusive posts?


Geez,

I know Troy too, and I have his phone number and by gosh Troy emailed me three times today while he was at the show in Chicago!!! And one of Troy's largest articles ever written on the MEARS website was about me.

Have I had lunch with Troy? No. Have I had dinner with Troy? No. But I did have lunch with former U.S. Department of Homeland Security Tom Ridge and I was nominated to a post on his homeland security panel. But that means jack squat. Just the same as has half of Joel's posts.

I too believe that MEARS is the best system that I have have ever observed. Do they have issues? Yes. Do I have problems with their scoring system? You bet I do and I have pointed them out on this website and on the MEARS website. I have serious issues when a person can slap a horrendously fake name, and fake numbers on a 1971 Oakland A's jersey and MEARS deems it game worn by Reggie Jackson. And by the way did I mention the jersey had an outline of the #4 on front and back before somebody slapped a #9 JACKSON on it??? Oh yes it was worn by Reggie because somebody stuck a 9 and name on the jersey. Fabulous assessment of this game used jersey used by a common A's player!!!


Rudy I have no bricks in my basement.

Mark

Mark, sorry if you misunderstood my intention. It was to let Rudy know that I am close with Troy Kinunen and I believe in his system. I am glad you are also in contact with Troy.


Can I officially ask for this p*ssing contest to be over?????? It's going nowhere, people!


Rudy: MEARS has a conflict of interest. You see it. MEARS sees it. We all see it. Even Joel sees it. WE GET IT!! However, with very few options out there for cross-examining items, and also the fact of handing money to a competitor to do a job that you can do as well or better must be galling, this situation may, unfortunately, be the most practical under current conditions. I do not think there are enough quality options out there to have a true checks-and-balances system in place like you (and the rest of us) would like to see. Perhaps most collectors think like I do: I'd rather have something that Bushing personally owned and authenticated himself than the same item looked at by Lampson (obviously), Grey Flannel, or the men behind the curtain at Mastro.

Joel: You love the MEARS gang and how they do business. You think they have the best system out there. WE GET IT!! That's why they are probably the most respected group today. But please listen to me: You are repeating yourself over and over. And over. Please, let it go!


I'm sure everyone who has read these threads this far is educated enough in the biz to see what the issues are, and have and will continue to use their wallets to "choose sides." But these threads have amounted to sniping back and forth and back and forth, and they aren't adding to the knowledge of anyone.

ADMIN: I THINK IT'S TIME TO LOCK THESE THREADS before it just gets more personal and angry.

Ken
earlywynnfan5@hotmail.com

Ken, very well said on all ends.

Finally, Rudy, the bricks in the basement is a comment about someone's past activites that is an inside comment. Sorry if you think it is more than that, but is it just a fun way to remind someone of their past when they attack my views.

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Everyone,

I just deleted a number of posts that were very off-topic and personal in nature. If you wish to contribute anything more to this thread please make sure it is constructive in nature and beneficial to the community.

Thanks in advance.

[ndevlin]

Hello Everyone,

I just deleted a number of posts that were very off-topic and personal in nature. If you wish to contribute anything more to this thread please make sure it is constructive in nature and beneficial to the community.

Thanks in advance.


I agree with this action, but why not follow forum rules and take further action? Why ban someone for posting an item in the for sale section, if you arent going to play out the rules completely and fairly for a different yet similar offense?

Thats what I dont get about this site. Its like people say and do things as they please, yet they just get a slap on the hand and get their post deleted. Yet when someone does an offense on the For Sale section for example, they get suspended. It feels like you guys make the rules as you go along and its quite frustrating for the common forum member.

I know you guys make the rules, and thats fair with me. But why not follow them like every other forum member does, or is supposed to do. If you guys did, I would bet it would cut back on the name calling, the personal bashing, and the all around poor environment this site sometimes sadly shows.

[allstarsplus]

"Folks, let’s face it and be honest about it… If you are running an auction house or selling items on E-Bay or at card show, your goal is to make money….Ouch…dirty as it may seem, it is the truth."

it's not the mere making of profit that folks see as "dirty" or the issue. it's how that profit is made that is the issue. rudy.

Thanks to Chris for his attempt to get this thread back on track.

There are opinions on all sides of the aisle, and it begins with honesty and integrity and full disclosure.

With that said, the mind sometimes plays tricks on you when conflicts of interest are present. For instance:

1. I buy a game used bat from a reputable source
2. Then I authenticate the bat myself and give it a 10 rating
3. Then I sell it on my own auction site.

I give full disclosure of all the potential conflicts of interest. Doesn't it then become "do your homework" and caveat emptor (let the buyer beware)?

Some would say that dealers are sort of doing the same progression on items they sell, but I disagree.

Yes, I do #1 all the time and that is the start as you buy from reputable sources and then self-evaluate the item as to authenticity, but most dealers don't rate the item (#2) and the LOA is merely a proof of sale as most have agreed that LOA/COA aren't worth the paper they are written on. #3 becomes a problem with any auction house as we all know if you own the auction house there is always the possibility that bids can be manipulated and feedback could be ignored (unless it is GUU) so yes this can be problematic.

I'm of the opinion that the guys at MEARs are honest guys, and I will check out whatever they do and comment when I actually see what they have when their auction goes "live".

As far as Jim Reed goes, he is a highly intelligent, and is as honest as they get. I have not had lunch with him but did buy him and his daughter a Slurpee at 7/11.



Nobody's likes the truth! I'm sick of so many people sitting back and keeping their mouths shut, when they also agree. You know what goes on, yet you'd rather have guys like Rudy do the talking, so you don't put yourselves out there.

We live in a society that is greedy and all about making money. No morales. No integrity. No honesty.
Tony, we don't live in a society that is greedy, we live in a society that has some greedy people. Worse than that, are people that make their money by ripping off people. If the guy that bought the Pedroia jersey a month ago wants to now sell it for a huge profit because he is going to capitalize on Pedroia winning the MVP, good for him if he does it honestly. My problem is the guy that tells you his Favre jersey is game used and is a fake. That is the scum of the earth and the problem with society.

[kingjammy24]

With that said, the mind sometimes plays tricks on you when conflicts of interest are present. For instance:

1. I buy a game used bat from a reputable source
2. Then I authenticate the bat myself and give it a 10 rating
3. Then I sell it on my own auction site.

I give full disclosure of all the potential conflicts of interest. Doesn't it then become "do your homework" and caveat emptor (let the buyer beware)?

Some would say that dealers are sort of doing the same progression on items they sell, but I disagree.

Yes, I do #1 all the time and that is the start as you buy from reputable sources and then self-evaluate the item as to authenticity, but most dealers don't rate the item (#2) and the LOA is merely a proof of sale as most have agreed that LOA/COA aren't worth the paper they are written on. #3 becomes a problem with any auction house as we all know if you own the auction house there is always the possibility that bids can be manipulated and feedback could be ignored (unless it is GUU) so yes this can be problematic.

hey andrew

completely agreed. "LOA/COA/LOO" is a very broad term that unfortunately has come to encompasses many different things. two points to the ones you made above:

1) there's a clear difference, in every respect, to a letter of provenance, which is what dealers offer, and a letter of authentication, which is what authenticators offer.

2) this conflict between authenticating/grading items ones own items and reselling them deals with the notion of perception of bias. obviously, any decent dealer will "authenticate" an item they intend on purchasing and reselling. however, the key here is that buyers aren't under the impression that the dealer is wholly impartial. they realize the dealer has a financial stake so the dealers statements and assurances are naturally taken with a grain of salt, much like a car salesman promising that the car he's selling you is great. sure he may be honest but everyone realizes the bias. third-party authenticators, on the other hand, are assumed to be entirely impartial and unbiased. unlike the dealer, folks assume the authenticator has no stake in it and is being completely honest and candid and so their opinion is taken differently than a dealers. it's these expectations on the part of buyers that strike the fundamental difference between dealers' "letters of provenance" and authenticators "letters of authentication". when the authenticator and the dealer are the same person, these expectations collide and buyers can't be quite sure whether it's the biased dealer speaking or the impartial authenticator. hence the conflict and hence why pointing to dealers who issue letters of provenance isn't a fair comparison.

rudy.

[3arod13]

Tony, we don't live in a society that is greedy, we live in a society that has some greedy people. Worse than that, are people that make their money by ripping off people. If the guy that bought the Pedroia jersey a month ago wants to now sell it for a huge profit because he is going to capitalize on Pedroia winning the MVP, good for him if he does it honestly. My problem is the guy that tells you his Favre jersey is game used and is a fake. That is the scum of the earth and the problem with society.

Andrew, agree 100%. Well said!