PDA

View Full Version : NFL jerseys in next Mastro auction



Number9
11-18-2008, 02:55 PM
Wow, I'm not much of an NFL collector, would like to add more to the few I have, but have everyone seen the lots in the next Mastro auction? Has to be the largest offering of old NFL jerseys I have seen. I hate auctions, but if you like looking at football jerseys you have to check this stuff out:


http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?Action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Search%20List

beantown
11-18-2008, 06:57 PM
Yes, some nice jerseys!

The Jim Brown one looked familiar to me....I believe it's the same one...

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1524.html

I wonder why the winning bidder would consign so quickly? You certaintly don't see Jim Brown game used jerseys everyday!!!

mvandor
11-18-2008, 07:13 PM
Yes, some nice jerseys!

The Jim Brown one looked familiar to me....I believe it's the same one...

http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/auction/2008/1524.html

I wonder why the winning bidder would consign so quickly? You certaintly don't see Jim Brown game used jerseys everyday!!!

Maybe he has a mortgage payment coming due! :D

yanks12025
11-18-2008, 07:54 PM
Does anyone know how they know the Derek Jeter bat ws used to hit the home run that Jeffery Maier caught. They dont really say anything about where it came from.

scottanservitz
11-18-2008, 10:28 PM
Man oh man! That Brown jersey is my GRAIL! I fell just $69K short. What a joy just to see it. Nuff said!

Scott

CollectGU
11-18-2008, 10:59 PM
A few observations on the Jim Brown. Anyone else find it amazing that a Jim Brown from this era has no team repairs or any substantial hit marks considering they didn't change jerseys everyday back then and I wouldn't exactly call Brown a finesse runner trying to avoid the hits. Also, It is the light weight tear away style so that would make it even more susceptible to rips...Also Jim Brown signed it "game jersey" (not "game worn") at a paid autograph show 40 years after he wore it and not when it came off his back

Regards,
Dave

beantown
11-18-2008, 11:20 PM
A few observations on the Jim Brown. Anyone else find it amazing that a Jim Brown from this era has no team repairs or any substantial hit marks considering they didn't change jerseys everyday back then and I wouldn't exactly call Brown a finesse runner trying to avoid the hits. Also, It is the light weight tear away style so that would make it even more susceptible to rips...Also Jim Brown signed it "game jersey" (not "game worn") at a paid autograph show 40 years after he wore it and not when it came off his back

Regards,
Dave


Yes, I've thought about all the things you brought up...has anyone ever seen a Jim Brown jersey that was not a tear away and how much wear/repairs it had?

kingjammy24
11-18-2008, 11:47 PM
A few observations on the Jim Brown. Anyone else find it amazing that a Jim Brown from this era has no team repairs or any substantial hit marks considering they didn't change jerseys everyday back then and I wouldn't exactly call Brown a finesse runner trying to avoid the hits. Also, It is the light weight tear away style so that would make it even more susceptible to rips...Also Jim Brown signed it "game jersey" (not "game worn") at a paid autograph show 40 years after he wore it and not when it came off his back

Regards,
Dave

big surprise, dave bushing buys a jersey and wowwee it gets an A10. dave then submits the item with his own authentication/letter and profits handsomely from the perfect grade. i can just imagine the look of delight and sheer surprise when his own jersey got an A10. i wonder what grade dave would've given it had it not been his own.

i wish i could've seen dave examine this one. sitting at his desk, whistling "we're in the money" as he checks off each item on the mears checklist. perfect! great! meets all requirements! wow, aren't i glad i bought such a great shirt, it seems to have gotten an A10! couldn't see that one coming! what a coincidence an A10 will fetch the absolute highest price. time to consign this puppy and profit from the handsome premium i've just added to it! "i've got good news, to shout in your ears, the silver dollar has returned to the fold, with silver you can turn your dreams to gold."

yeah i know REA and MEARS stated the conflict of interest in the listing but simply announcing there's a conflict hardly negates the conflict itself. dave never should've been allowed to have his own personal item evaluated by MEARS to start with and REA shouldn't accept any items directly from a MEARS member with a MEARS worksheet. people say bushing's done so well because he's such a savvy buyer. really knows how to flip an item. yeah well, it helps when you're the one writing LOAs from the most highy esteemed authenticator (read: fetches the highest prices) on your own items and magically racking up the A10s on your own items. even the savviest of buyers out there weren't able to game the system the way bushing did for years. who else could add a premium like that to their own item? thank goodness that nonsense has stopped.

ok, back to my porch to shake my cane at the kids cutting across my property.

rudy.

helmets
11-19-2008, 10:43 AM
Is it just me, or are many of the jerseys and helmets the same ones over and over again from other auction sites. I collect helmets and Packer items, so I don't keep tabs on the jerseys too much, but many of the helmets in the auction, as well as the Nitschke jersey were in the Heritage auction a year or two ago. Same with the Jim Taylor warmup jacket. The Hornung helmet sold at a Heritage auction with a BD-9 mask attached, and now at this auction, it is for sale again, but without the mask. Why was the mask removed?

nyjetsfan14
11-19-2008, 11:21 AM
Is it just me, or are many of the jerseys and helmets the same ones over and over again from other auction sites. I collect helmets and Packer items, so I don't keep tabs on the jerseys too much, but many of the helmets in the auction, as well as the Nitschke jersey were in the Heritage auction a year or two ago. Same with the Jim Taylor warmup jacket. The Hornung helmet sold at a Heritage auction with a BD-9 mask attached, and now at this auction, it is for sale again, but without the mask. Why was the mask removed?

I always notice that, especially with Jets items constantly going from one auction house to another (a few of the Jets items in this Mastro auction have been seen in several other auctions with the oddest being the Don Maynard items that keep making their rounds). Also, so much of what I see in auction houses I have seen previously on e-Bay. I assume they have reps/buyers surfing e-Bay as well as other regular Joes looking for that flip and corresponding profit. Makes me wonder if any auction house peeps ever look thru the collector to collector classifieds here or if folks buy stuff from the GUU for sale section to flip at an auction house? Anyhow, I have yet to comprehend why a vintage item on e-Bay gets so little action/attention than it gets flipped in an auction house with a worthless letter of opinion and goes for 5+ times more and that's not including the 20% hammer fee mark ups?!

hrvatwill
11-19-2008, 11:33 AM
Hmmmm....another short sleeve Lambert gamer.

mvandor
11-19-2008, 11:37 AM
Re: the Brown, yes, it's hard to imagine a Brown not being pounded, even if he was wearig a new one in his final game and this is it. And if I recall correctly, hasn't Bushing left authenticating at MEARS because he took too much justified heat for authenticating his own stuff and flipping it?

Jake51
11-19-2008, 11:46 AM
Two cents here...and this is all this comment is probably really worth....but I have a high level of confidence that almost all of the items in the auction belong to one private collector who is dumping his [substantial] stash.

So the reason we saw many of these items show up in different auctions and now here is because that is how this person built his collection - buying from the various auction houses.

No comment/clue on the specifics of any of the items but I have to say that some of them are pretty fun to look at!

Thanks,

Tom

ChrisCavalier
11-19-2008, 12:38 PM
Two cents here...and this is all this comment is probably really worth....but I have a high level of confidence that almost all of the items in the auction belong to one private collector who is dumping his [substantial] stash.

So the reason we saw many of these items show up in different auctions and now here is because that is how this person built his collection - buying from the various auction houses.
Hello Tom,

I believe your assessment is correct. In fact, my understanding is that Mastro did secure one of the larger football collections in the hobby and that many of the items were acquired through various auctions, among other venues. That may explain why many of these items have been seen in auction before.

On a separate note as an admin as relates to some previous posts in the thread (not Tom's). If you do have questions about any of the items please feel free to contact Mastro and post any information you find here. I would also ask that the discussions focus on the specifics of the items themselves and not focus on individuals. That is, I don't see the need to bring up anyone personally unless it has verifiable relevance to the item itself. If there is evidence that has a definitive bearing on the item please state the specifics with facts to support it. Otherwise, let's stay focused on the items.

Also, as per the forum rules, I would ask that this thread not turn into an attempt to attack anyone. Again, unless there is something which can be added that can be proven to have an impact on the item itself, let's please stay focused on the items themselves as I think that is where those reading this thread can benefit.

trsent
11-19-2008, 12:56 PM
big surprise, dave bushing buys a jersey and wowwee it gets an A10. dave then submits the item with his own authentication/letter and profits handsomely from the perfect grade. i can just imagine the look of delight and sheer surprise when his own jersey got an A10. i wonder what grade dave would've given it had it not been his own.

i wish i could've seen dave examine this one. sitting at his desk, whistling "we're in the money" as he checks off each item on the mears checklist. perfect! great! meets all requirements! wow, aren't i glad i bought such a great shirt, it seems to have gotten an A10! couldn't see that one coming! what a coincidence an A10 will fetch the absolute highest price. time to consign this puppy and profit from the handsome premium i've just added to it! "i've got good news, to shout in your ears, the silver dollar has returned to the fold, with silver you can turn your dreams to gold."

yeah i know REA and MEARS stated the conflict of interest in the listing but simply announcing there's a conflict hardly negates the conflict itself. dave never should've been allowed to have his own personal item evaluated by MEARS to start with and REA shouldn't accept any items directly from a MEARS member with a MEARS worksheet. people say bushing's done so well because he's such a savvy buyer. really knows how to flip an item. yeah well, it helps when you're the one writing LOAs from the most highy esteemed authenticator (read: fetches the highest prices) on your own items and magically racking up the A10s on your own items. even the savviest of buyers out there weren't able to game the system the way bushing did for years. who else could add a premium like that to their own item? thank goodness that nonsense has stopped.

ok, back to my porch to shake my cane at the kids cutting across my property.

rudy.

Troy Kinunen has posted a reply about this jersey on the MEARS forum. I believe his post is in reference to the post above. As usual, MEARS is upfront and honest about any item they authenticate from their own collection but as usual this is not good enough for some.

The Robert Edwards listing clearly stated: "The jersey was personally purchased by world-renowned jersey and bat authenticator David Bushing and has been consigned to this auction directly from his personal collection/inventory. LOAs from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS and James Spence/JSA." Which clearly states that the LOA is from Dave Bushing, the previous owner, so that there is no concern over his (soon to be former) company writing the LOA for his item.

I will make an observation here that Troy Kinunen determined that it would be impossible to make a living by just writing letters for game used jerseys, bats and other vintage sports memorabilia. He came up with a full disclosure policy to make sure facts about him and his associates were public record so they were playing fair to the publics view. If anyone has a better idea they should share such a concept as maybe MEARS will adopt a new policy based on a different method. For now their policy is groundbreaking in an industry with people hiding ownership of items and writing LOAs on them.

I understand, and I believe Troy Kinunen understands, people will always complain or be jealous of their practice and amazing inventory, but the facts are clear. MEARS has set up a policy where all items authenticated by them for items they own will be clearly marked as such on their LOA and they will disclose such facts on their web site for public record and Robert Edwards will disclose such in their auction description.

Any other auction houses that have an item with a MEARS LOA will have to choose if they mention the previous ownership, as they are not under contract to follow the MEARS rules of integrity, as Robert Edwards Auctions has agreed to follow.

I see MASTRO makes no mention of the Dave Bushing ownership in their current description. They have no ties to MEARS anymore since they decided not to sign the MEARS Auction House Policy Contract.

Troy Kinunen's response follows:

There has been some discussion on game used forum with respects to the Jim Brown jersey which was bought and auctioned in the spring 2008 REA auction and is now available in the current Mastro Net auctions. There has been some speculation and statement of facts that are just plain inaccurate and mischaracterizes Dave Bushing and his involvement in the jersey. Although Dave Bushing was in charge of the marketing of this jersey, I authored both the MEARS LOO and the supporting article. Yes, an A10 grade was given, but the jersey and its merits were carefully chronicled in the detailed MEARS LOO and had nothing to do with Bushings ownership. The history, worksheet, and final LOO along with the detailed step by step process was made available to all bidders. Some criticism of tear away materials and the degree of use was openly debated by some on the GUF, this is a good thing. You do not have to agree with our findings or grade, but at least we offered a detailed, transparent methodology of our procedures which allowed you make your own final decision.

At the time of the sale, I published an article on the MEARS website addressing the jersey. Members can view the story at:

(Link removed as it points to an article only visible by MEARS members) (http://www.mearsonline.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=459)

Regarding the origin and history of the jersey, Dave Bushing and I purchased this item at the show at the 2007 National Convention in Cleveland. This fact was presented by Rob Lifson in his catalog and I personally spoke with the current owner about our ownership.

Part of the reason the jersey obtained a high grade was due to the fact the seller of the item was offering items directly from the estate of a long time Browns employee. Included amongst his historic offerings were photographs from the 1946 AAFC team, Championship Browns footballs, correspondence, and this Jim Brown jersey. The memorabilia along with this Jim Brown jersey were offered for public viewing for the very first time at this show. The jersey was fresh and unmarketed in the hobby. Dave Bushings ownership of the jersey had nothing to do with the assigned grade.

I addressed the issue of the game wear both in the MEARS LOO and in the article.

It is often noted that a jersey has to exhibit team repairs to be considered heavily worn. This is not a universal truth and wear can manifest itself in additional visible manners. For example, examine the area of the crotch piece of this jersey. Along the button opening reinforced stitching, you can see areas of fraying. This was caused from the buttoning and unbuttoning of the piece. The game wear is visible when examining the stress and contact marks found on the fabric. This is especially visible when examining the area of the numeral surfaces. The use may be considered light by some when comparing the fabric to a dureene example with visible team repairs, but close examination reveals wear to the overall areas of the fabric of the body shell, crotch piece and numerals.

Over the past 3 years, I have personally handled nearly 300 game used NFL jerseys. I have purchased many of them on Ebay, dealers, and game used forum members. One of the key components I have noticed was the absence of team repairs. Most of these jerseys were of common players. They were purchased with the intentions to obtain fabric samples and color templates for the MEARS archives. After each jersey was archived, many were sold.

By handling such a large random sample, I was able to empirically illustrate that NFL jerseys would have medium to heavy game wear, without team repairs. Some jerseys were found to have team repairs, but I would estimate that less than 10% of the jerseys were found with team repairs. Therefore, with the aid of actual examples, I was able to document that game worn jerseys of common players were found in high percentages (90%) to not have team repairs.

A counter argument is that common players are not superstars, nor running backs, and common players should not have the same amount of game wear as a running back of Brown's calibre. Many of the samples that we examined were of everyday starting lineman, considered common players by collectors standards. These lineman jerseys were worn in every down, yet did not have repairs. It is also interesting to note that on several instances, MEARS issued unable to authenticate on super star jerseys, bearing manufactured or contrived team repairs. It is our expert opinion team repairs do not alone make a jersey real or fake.

Now, I do not mean to offend the many collectors that have NFL jerseys exhibiting team repairs. I know they exist, and have a database file of photographed players with visible team repairs. I just want to illustrate that a jersey does not have to have a team repair in order to be considered authentic or having heavy game wear.

If any interested parties would like to further discuss the team repairs vs. non team repairs debate, I would be willing to extend an invitation this spring to the new MEARS Research and Conference Center. Our color plate copies of the NFL jerseys referenced above are available for any interested parties. We can compare your actual jerseys to our referenced color plate examples.

This jersey is manufactured from a tear away material. The design of the material is quite thin and has a transparent appearance. The name is somewhat deceiving, as although thin, the material is quite resistant to tearing. I purchased a King OShea college jersey made from this tear away material. With two of my staffers and me engaged in a tug of war, the jersey did not tear. This is also a similar material to what the Chicago Bears wore at times. I have since conducted numerous research on the tear away material, and I can find no specific reference to the materials being names or marketed as such. It is my belief that the King OShea fabric was of a lighter, but stronger blend and had more to do with perspiration absorption than tearing away. With Papa Bear Halas being notorious frugal, the practice of having jerseys tear away during the course of a game is probably more versed in legend than fact. Nevertheless, this thin type fabric is photographically documented and examples from both the Browns and Bears have entered the hobby. I have not been presented with any proof that these tear away jerseys are expected to tear after each game of use.

Again, I have several of these tear away jerseys available for examination at the new MEARS headquarters and I think you would also be surprised at the actual strength this material contains.

Furthermore, I have 4 or 5 crystal clear image of Jim Brown wearing the tear away style jerseys. None of them show visible signs of team repairs. I do feel that team repairs would show in photos, as we have several examples in our database. These images of Jim Brown can be found in the article.

At the time of the article we addressed the images of Brown as follows:

I have provided a close-up image of Jim Brown wearing a similar tear away jersey. Note how the writing of his T-shirt and shoulder pad markings can be seen through the materials.

Regarding the issue of conflict of interest, both sides of the issue have stated their cases and I do not expect to change any existing opinions. What I do feel is that a high majority of active bidders and collectors do not have issues with MEARS members buying and evaluating their own items. This is illustrated by higher prices realized of MEARS evaluated items, even on the items owned and disclosed as being owned by Dave Bushing.

I also feel that the issue of conflict of interest is unfairly targeted at Dave Bushing as he has agreed to voluntarily disclose what he owns. This is done via the our items at auction section on the MEARS website, and the disclosure line of the items for sale at MEARS For Sale. Rob Lifson also voluntarily listed the ownership of Bushing or Bushing/Kinunen in each lot description. As a consignor, both Dave and I were quite pleased with the results of our consignments in the 2008 REA auction. Each of these lots had our financial interests listed, and we did not feel there were any negative impacts from interested bidders. In some cases, collectors seek out items owned by Dave, so the disclosure process actually helps Dave sell items for higher prices. Authenticators John Taube and Lou Lampson are also dealers that have consigned to auction houses in the past. To my knowledge, they have yet to adopt the full disclosure practice mandated by MEARS, yet they never receive criticism. If the current crop of authenticators are still consigning items they own, the collecting public does not know as I know of no formal method of the identification of these items and the disclosure of their owners. Dave received the criticism, as he was the only person disclosing.

But, I guess if you do not disclose, how can anybody see the self applied target on your back? Next time you receive an item in auction that was authenticated as real or you get a PSA letter with a high grade, it might have been owned by Taube or Lampson, but you will never really know due to the lack of full disclosure policies for these individuals.

At least with Bushing, you can run for the hills when you see an item owned by him with a MEARS A10 grade. Or in the case of the Jim Brown jersey, you can bid aggressively with the exact same knowledge of disclosure and pay a World Record price!

With MEARS, we voluntarily provide you with the disclosure of ownership, give you a worksheet to review, a final letter to review, and a bulletin board to discuss. Although we cant please everyone, we still do alright.

Troy

Jake51
11-19-2008, 12:57 PM
Hi Chris,

My intent was never to point a finger at anyone, just trying to give an answer to the question about why these items showed up in previous auctions and now were all in one place.

Sorry if my comment was misconstrued.

Thanks,

Tom

ChrisCavalier
11-19-2008, 01:55 PM
Hi Chris,

My intent was never to point a finger at anyone, just trying to give an answer to the question about why these items showed up in previous auctions and now were all in one place.

Sorry if my comment was misconstrued.
Hello Tom,

Actually I owe you the apology. I guess my post was not clear. My posts contained two parts and the part about the consignor was the only part I intended to reference you (given your previous post).

My reference to mentioning individuals had nothing to do with your post but to posts that were made previous to yours in the thread. I'm sorry for the confusion. I should have made that clearer in my post. In fact, I went back and edited it to try to avoid any further confusion.

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 02:26 PM
tom: i may be wrong but i think chris was pointing at my post.

re: my post and troy's response

first, i think it's a great thing that MEARS has the character to respond, promptly and in full, to these things. perhaps one day lampson will grow a pair, come out from under his rock and follow their example. so hat's off to troy for not ducking things. to the issues:

"Dave Bushing and I purchased this item at the show at the 2007 National Convention in Cleveland...I authored both the MEARS LOO and the supporting article."

if the actual ownership was joint between troy and bushing then the fact that troy wrote the letter and not dave is irrelevant. if you have ownership in the item, you don't write the letter on it. very simple stuff to grasp, especially for an organization that has long trumpeted the importance of true-third party authentication. if you purchase an item and then you evaluate your own item after you've purchased it, how is that third-party authentication? how is it not a conflict of interest, which MEARS has also long railed against?

"Yes, an A10 grade was given, but the jersey and its merits were carefully chronicled in the detailed MEARS LOO and had nothing to do with Bushings ownership."

the jersey may, or may not, very well merit an A10. that's not the issue in the least. the issue solely centers around the inherit existance of bias in evaluating items you own, regardless of whether the grades are justified.

"What I do feel is that a high majority of active bidders and collectors do not have issues with MEARS members buying and evaluating their own items. This is illustrated by higher prices realized of MEARS evaluated items, even on the items owned and disclosed as being owned by Dave Bushing."

most don't have an issue with it and MEARS items sell for more. all completely irrelevant to the issue. what's right is right regardless of whether people have a problem with it or not. ethical behavior isn't a popularity or profit-making contest.

re: disclosure

i'll say it again: disclosure doesn't eliminate the conflict. it only informs people of the conflict.

"Authenticators John Taube and Lou Lampson are also dealers that have consigned to auction houses in the past. To my knowledge, they have yet to adopt the full disclosure practice mandated by MEARS, yet they never receive criticism."

well this i did not know. i always suspected lampson authenticated and consigned his own items into his buddies' auctions because hey that's just the sort of guy that lou is but with doug allen's dodgy responses and mastro's bizarre refusal to identify their authenticators, i never had any proof. hard to criticize without proof. if taube's consigning and authenticating his own items into auctions, then it's as much a conflict of interest as when bushing does it. taube once told me he didn't authenticate his own items, disclosure or not. i believed him.

"If the current crop of authenticators are still consigning items they own, the collecting public does not know as I know of no formal method of the identification of these items and the disclosure of their owners. Dave received the criticism, as he was the only person disclosing."

ok dave gets kudos for disclosing however holding him up against the current crop of authenticators sets the pretty bar low. who are we talking about here..lampson, coppola, cocchi? i'd name mastro's mystery team but doug keeps them a bigger secret than the colonel's original recipe. MEARS made its name by setting themselves to a higher standard. comparing dave to the current crop of authenticators seems to go against that.

"But, I guess if you do not disclose, how can anybody see the self applied target on your back? Next time you receive an item in auction that was authenticated as real or you get a PSA letter with a high grade, it might have been owned by Taube or Lampson, but you will never really know due to the lack of full disclosure policies for these individuals."

i'd like to see taube address this issue. anyway, troy the inherant problem in what you write above is that, due to various factors, folks have the expectation of the highest ethical standards from MEARS. clearly they don't have that same expectation from lampson. sure, in a way you've done it to yourself but i don't think you'd rather go skulking around the shadows and end up as nothing more than a reviled laughing stock.

rudy.

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 02:30 PM
If anyone has a better idea they should share such a concept as maybe MEARS will adopt a new policy based on a different method.

if you own an item, don't grade it. a little complex i know but some may understand it.

the issue is that disclosure doesn't negate the conflict. it's a great start and it's better than what others do but what others do in this industry is so abysmal that it hardly sets the bar. saying you're a good a person because you only stole $5 while everyone else stole $10 isn't much of a case. i agree that disclosure is nice. i agree that MEARS does more than most. neither of these is relevant to the issue.

rudy.

Danny899
11-19-2008, 03:16 PM
As usual, MEARS is upfront and honest about any item they authenticate from their own collection but as usual this is not good enough for some.


I understand, and I believe Troy Kinunen understands, people will always complain or be jealous of their practice and amazing inventory, but the facts are clear. MEARS has set up a policy where all items authenticated by them for items they own will be clearly marked as such on their LOA .

Troy

Joel, your post was accurate and on the money. Especially the two highlighted paragraphs documented above. I also admire your ability not to be lured into a useless debate where you will never get the last word in despite yours and Mears truthfulness. Like anything else in life, no matter what you do or say, someone will have always find a way to complain about it. Good to hear from you again.
Dan

wjonesIII
11-19-2008, 03:23 PM
if you own an item, don't grade it. a little complex i know but some may understand it.

the issue is that disclosure doesn't negate the conflict. it's a great start and it's better than what others do but what others do in this industry is so abysmal that it hardly sets the bar. saying you're a good a person because you only stole $5 while everyone else stole $10 isn't much of a case. i agree that disclosure is nice. i agree that MEARS does more than most. neither of these is relevant to the issue.

rudy.

If I were Lou Lampson, I would submit any item I owned to MEARS before consigning it, because Lou Lampson is not an auction house. he would be allowed to submit the items to MEARS. Then he wouldn't have to ever write a letter on his own jersey again. As far as MEARS goes, who do you want authenticating the items that Troy and Dave consign? Lelands? Mastro? Grey Flannel? The bidder? I am sure the buyer wants a COA. REA did let people know the facts. Do you want REA to write the LOA? Somebody has to write it. Do you just want GUU to authenticate everything. I understand that you don't want the consignor writing the LOA. Many would agree. Again, it was clearly stated by REA though, so what should they have done?

wjonesIII
11-19-2008, 03:25 PM
if you own an item, don't grade it. a little complex i know but some may understand it.


rudy.

Or is the authentication of the Brown jersey by MEARS okay by you, but you feel it should not have received any grade?

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 03:36 PM
Joel, your post was accurate and on the money. Especially the two highlighted paragraphs documented above. I also admire your ability not to be lured into a useless debate where you will never get the last word in despite yours and Mears truthfulness. Like anything else in life, no matter what you do or say, someone will have always find a way to complain about it. Good to hear from you again.
Dan

danny

good to see you addressing the actual points as usual. i succumb to yours and joel alpert's analysis; it's true that my entire take on this issue is solely because i am "jealous of MEARS practice and amazing inventory".

i also concur that the reason joel's found so much resistance on this forum is because, as he's put it before, people just don't like to hear the truth. much like the reason we've had such a hard time in iraq is because those folks just hate freedom and fun. here's hoping you and joel continue on your truth-espousing mission. maybe one day we'll all see the light.

rudy.

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 03:41 PM
If I were Lou Lampson, I would submit any item I owned to MEARS before consigning it, because Lou Lampson is not an auction house. he would be allowed to submit the items to MEARS. Then he wouldn't have to ever write a letter on his own jersey again. As far as MEARS goes, who do you want authenticating the items that Troy and Dave consign? Lelands? Mastro? Grey Flannel? The bidder? I am sure the buyer wants a COA. REA did let people know the facts. Do you want REA to write the LOA? Somebody has to write it. Do you just want GUU to authenticate everything. I understand that you don't want the consignor writing the LOA. Many would agree. Again, it was clearly stated by REA though, so what should they have done?

scintillating to see someone with some genuine comments and questions.
who would authenticate items that belong to troy and/or bushing? perhaps dave grob. really i'm not sure but that's more of a logistical dilemma. i'm simply having an ideological discussion here. if lampson weren't lampson, then the two sides could swap authentications of their personal items back and forth. lou could have his done by MEARS and troy and dave could have theirs done by lou. of course, in reality, that's an abysmal idea solely because lou's "not very good at what he does". troy and dave could submit their items to nick coppola's crew over at GFC or doug allen's mystery band of merrymakers at mastro.

as for what REA should've done, in my opinion, quite simply say they won't run things where the authenticator and consigner are the same person. simple no? if dave bushing loves REA (and let's face it, who doesn't?) and wants to consign all of his items there, then he can simply not grade his items and have another authenticator do it. for his bats, he can get taube or mike specht to do it.

once again, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for actually sticking to the issues.

rudy.

Danny899
11-19-2008, 03:56 PM
danny

good to see you addressing the actual points as usual. i succumb to yours and joel alpert's analysis; it's true that my entire take on this issue is solely because i am "jealous of MEARS practice and amazing inventory".

i also concur that the reason joel's found so much resistance on this forum is because, as he's put it before, people just don't like to hear the truth. much like the reason we've had such a hard time in iraq is because those folks just hate freedom and fun. here's hoping you and joel continue on your truth-espousing mission. maybe one day we'll all see the light.

rudy.

I really don't see how Iraq has anything remotely to do with this topic or this forum for that matter. However maybe if you were less sarcastic and more humble in your writings, some might take you more seriously. Try to realize that members may not always agree with you, and if they don't, there's certainly no reason to become abrasive with them as you have above. It's unfortunate, because I really appreciated your large collection of Rickey Henderson photos in your library. I'm done here.

David
11-19-2008, 05:17 PM
I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. :) I fail to see much difference between the two.

In the end, what matters is whether or not the item is authentic. If MEARS issues an LOA for an authentic garment, there's little to complain about. If MEARS issues an LOA for a fake garment, then there's something to complain about. If MEARS gives LOAs to a lot of bad stuff, everyone will start dismissing their LOAs-- doesn't matter who owned what. If a collector wants to dismiss altogether the LOAs from MEARS, NFL teams or MLB players because they owned the items and profited directly from their sale, that is their right. However, most collectors will put stock in a Miami Dolphins LOA or Nolan Ryan hologram, even though the entity made significant profit from the sale. If Nolan Ryan starts affixing his hologram to baseballs signed by his neice, then collectors will soon question the legitimacy of his holograms.

otismalibu
11-19-2008, 05:25 PM
I assumed KJ24 had an issue with the grading (Mears) of one's own items.

I dunno.

All my collection items have been graded OM10. Just sayin'.

trsent
11-19-2008, 05:44 PM
A few observations:

Rudy - I do not understand, you want MEARS not to write letters on their own items? Who else can authenticate them? MeiGray, the only other 3rd party authenticator I personally trust, doesn't accept all items and even if they did, why would MEARS pay extra fees to authenticate items that they spent countless hours authenticating themselves?

MEARS has started a policy that is above and beyond what anyone asks for. Do not buy their stuff if you do not like their system. I offered to you a few years ago to start an authentication company with you. We all know you were not interested, as you wish to keep this a hobby for yourself. This is great, but no one else has steeped forward as an authenticator with full disclosure policies in this industry to date.

David Archibald - Nice to see you back in the William Jones III persona. Here is the problem with your concept. If Lou Lampson sent items in to MEARS to have authenticated for the purpose of consigning to any auction house other than Robert Edwards Auctions, MEARS would not be willing to authenticate the item per their Auction House Contract Policy.

Danny - Nice to see your post also. I am glad someone who understands my side of a debate posts it. I find too many people just don't like to get into the debate side of things but love to email, call or when they see me in person tell me how they love my posts and rants.

OM10 - A new grade for you and you only?

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 05:48 PM
I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. :) I fail to see much difference between the two.

the two couldn't be more different. players/marketing companies don't authenticate jerseys. mears does. players/marketing companies are simply saying that "X jersey came from X player/team". mears examines jerseys beyond that point, often without any such provenance. mears is in the business of educated guesswork. when the miami dolphins take a jersey from jason taylor and sell it, they aren't guessing. the pro shop folks aren't even attempting to authenticate. they're just selling what comes off the field. they're not telling people to have faith in their knowledge of game-used items.


In the end, what matters is whether or not the item is authentic. If MEARS issues an LOA for an authentic garment, there's little to complain about.

many things in this hobby matter. conflicts of interest are one of them. however, don't take my word for it. MEARS has spent years railing against conflicts of interest.

david, for the most part, "authenticity" in this hobby requires faith. unless you've personally witnessed an item being used on the field and then put immediately into your own hands without ever taking your eyes off of it, there's a leap of faith required. these leaps are tested or questioned when the person saying it's authentic has an inherant bias in their testimony because they stand to personally profit from it. what is so difficult to understand why conflicts of interest are a bad thing? almost every major commercial endeavor has not only realized this but has formal mechanisms in place to prevent here. meanwhile, we're here in this hobby like a bunch of dinosaurs unable to even comprehend what it all means. i know i've said this a few times but truly i should keep my yap shut about this issue. it seems many have no issue with the consigner and the authenticator being the same person. i suppose i should be thankful these folks don't work in accounting, investment banking, or any other profession that demands a clear understanding of conflicts of interest.


"If MEARS issues an LOA for a fake garment, then there's something to complain about."

i understand what you're saying when you that all that matters is whether the is good or bad but it's substantially more complex and subtle than that. this hobby doesn't operate in such absolute shades. a jersey might be good or might be bad. who's going to tip the scales in favor of good? the person who stands to profit from it and whose opinion people rely on to be objective and unbiased?

rudy.

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 06:01 PM
Rudy - I do not understand, you want MEARS not to write letters on their own items? Who else can authenticate them?

grey flannel. john taube. psa/dna. mike specht. GAI. and i'm not suggesting that MEARS, as a whole, not write letters on its items but rather that the specific individuals at MEARS who own a specific item not write letters on that item. if bushing has bought a jersey, he can have grob authenticate it. if grob has purchased a jersey, he can have bushing look at it. would it truly have been such an arduous hassle for dave and troy to have bought the jim brown jersey and given it to dave grob to authenticate? i've been very impressed with much of dave grob's research and i'm sure he could've done a fine job.


why would MEARS pay extra fees to authenticate items that they spent countless hours authenticating themselves?

because it removes the conflict of interest, that's why. does it cost more to be ethical? often yes. joel, when a public company issues its year-end financial statement, there is the requirement that a third-party accounting firm sign off on the results. the company's own in-house accountants can't sign off by themselves. why is that joel? is it because their own in-house accountants have an inherant bias by virtue of being employed by the entity with whom they're supposed to be objective? like i said, the rest of the civilized world has caught up to this issue and this hobby creaks along like it's 1802. someone came up with an auction model 20 yrs ago, inherantly ripe with potential for fraud and exploitation, and we're all still using it and saying "hey, if you don't like it, don't use it".

rudy.

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 06:04 PM
I assume that people who are against MEARS issuing an LOA for items they own/consign/market, are also against players or their marketing companies issuing LOAs for the player's game used or autographs. :) I fail to see much difference between the two.

if dave bushing wants to wear a jersey to play touch football in and then sell that jersey, i have no issue with him attesting to the fact that he personally wore it. dave knows for a fact that he wore it.

if dave wants to purchase a jersey and then authenticate it and determine the degree of authenticity, then i have an issue with it because, unlike his touch football jersey, it's no longer fact, it's simply an opinion. an opinion becomes biased when the person stands to profit from deciding one way or the other.

rudy.

David
11-19-2008, 06:13 PM
As has been said, if a collector wants to dismiss/ignore all MEARS LOAs where they owned and/or consigned the item, that is his right. A collector isn't required to bid on or buy anything.

David
11-19-2008, 06:28 PM
I should add that if you feel a company would lie or otherwise materially embellish the authenticity claims because they own the item, that would be a reason not to trust their authenticity opinion about anything.

wjonesIII
11-19-2008, 06:35 PM
scintillating to see someone with some genuine comments and questions.
who would authenticate items that belong to troy and/or bushing? perhaps dave grob. really i'm not sure but that's more of a logistical dilemma. i'm simply having an ideological discussion here. if lampson weren't lampson, then the two sides could swap authentications of their personal items back and forth. lou could have his done by MEARS and troy and dave could have theirs done by lou. of course, in reality, that's an abysmal idea solely because lou's "not very good at what he does". troy and dave could submit their items to nick coppola's crew over at GFC or doug allen's mystery band of merrymakers at mastro.

as for what REA should've done, in my opinion, quite simply say they won't run things where the authenticator and consigner are the same person. simple no? if dave bushing loves REA (and let's face it, who doesn't?) and wants to consign all of his items there, then he can simply not grade his items and have another authenticator do it. for his bats, he can get taube or mike specht to do it.

once again, from the bottom of my heart, thanks for actually sticking to the issues.

rudy.

Grey Flannel my ***. I know for a fact they were sent a Pujols jersey with a GFC letter they wrote, along with a MEARS "unable to authenticate" letter for the same jersey. The Pujols jersey clearly matches the GFC letter and is obviously the same jersey (other than the autograph signed after in GFC's possession). GFC says "it's not the same jersey" and stole the Grey Flannel letter they wrote, calling it their policy to take back such letters. Instead of taking responsibility and explaining why they disagree with MEARS opinion, they stole the letter! That tells me GFC has shady business practices. I would never consign to them, or have them grade any item. Why would Dave Bushing use those people to authenticate his stuff? For the record, it's a bunch of B.S. that GFC stole the letter that they wrote, and charged $ for.

trsent
11-19-2008, 06:36 PM
Rudy, nice theories, but the facts speak for themselves:

If MEARS owns and writes a LOA on an item, they are standing behind it more than anyone else in the industry. Bid with confidence if an issue is found down the road they will still be there to stand behind the item.

You do not have to bid or buy an item with a MEARS LOA that originated from a member of the MEARS staff. That is your choice, but you do not have to go on a debate of how you find it unethical each and every time an item comes up on this forum. We all know you disagree with their policies, but most people find that MEARS has broken new ground for being honest up front so you can be assured their letters for their inventory is fully disclosed.

As similar to what Troy Kinunen stated in his post, how about auction houses that own their own items, authenticate them and sell them? You do not believe this happens with American Memorabilia, Historic Auctions, Grey Flannel and others? Maybe it doesn't, but I believe they all authenticate items in house, and if they own an item, have you ever seen them disclose such information?

MEARS has a policy to give full disclosure of any item they own and authenticate - A positive step in this industry. You do not have to buy anything they have authenticated, but you have to give them credit for honesty and integrity when no one else has stepped forward with such concepts to date.

Ok, don't give them credit, I'll do such for you.

aeneas01
11-19-2008, 06:45 PM
frankly, i don't understand why mears (troy, dave. etc.) would even consider putting themselves in the of position of inviting these sort of debates (which often leave hints of doubt in their wake) simply because they insist on authenticating/grading their own items. nor do i understand why some want to pretend that this sort of practice, autheticating/grading one's own item, is perfectly benign and not frought with potential abuse.

as far as the robert edward "disclaimer" is concerned, imho it falls well short of full disclosure - it assumes that the general public understands the inner workings of mears, how the grading process is determined and who determines the final grade. mears, a sports memorabilia evaluation service and dealer, is the owner and seller of this jersey. they have determined the jersey's authenticity and have awarded it the highest grade available. information regarding mears can be found at mearsonline.com. that's closer to full disclosure imo.

but here's the thing - we're talking about items that fetch tens of thousands of dollars. the fact that mears ponied up to purchase such items alone speaks volumes given their expertise in the field. so why muddy the water? why not seek out a reputable third party authenticator to confirm what mears already knows. call it peer review. now you have a gem offered from the personal colection of one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the world (mears) independently authenticated by xyz. it looks and smells better - and in the long run would be well worth the relatively small layout for the thrid party evaluation imo.

moving on, i was very impressed with troy's detailed and thorough observations regarding the jersey's use. specifically, it strikes me that he's spot on regarding the term "tear away" and its apparent loose definition. i'm with him - i find it hard to beleve that halas, or any owner from that era, would invest in a stockpile of tear away jerseys that would need to be continually replaced throughout a season. further, i doubt the jim brown jersey fabric is consistent with the "true" tear away fabric used in the late 70s, early 80s - a shredded tony dorsett pitt jersey comes to mind.

before i forget, what's up with grading a jim brown gamer an a10? i'm sorry, but that's just laughable. i guess the ark of the covenant would grade out at an a10 as well? as if rare gems can't stand alone on their own painfully obvious merits. here's an idea: confine grading to cards and sigs, to bent corners and smears. but i guess that would mean leaving a few bucks on the table.

as far as the football helmets at mastro are concerned, i would say that at least 75% of them have been sold at auction within the last couple of years. i've only had a chance to take a quick look but i recoginized just about every one i saw, most are in my photo database - i'll post some thoughts as well as what they went for the last time they were auctioned when i get a chance.

to end, here's a shot of a jim brown jersey hanging in canton - there's another photo available that shows the same reinforced elbow stitching.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb.jpg

...

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 06:52 PM
I should add that if you feel a company would lie or otherwise materially embellish the authenticity claims because they own the item, that would be a reason not to trust their authenticity opinion about anything.

bushing? embellish items he owns? never!

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16205

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16211

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16207

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=16206

http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1208396670/1968+Lew+Krausse+Oakland+A%92s+jersey+%28Lot+%23+1 385%29+in+the+current+REA+Auction

anyway, i feel it's unfair to castigate all of mears simply from bushing's actions, especially given that he's already left. i like grob and miedema seems like a good fellow.

rudy.

kingjammy24
11-19-2008, 07:27 PM
frankly, i don't understand why mears (troy, dave. etc.) would even consider putting themselves in the of position of inviting these sort of debates (which often leave hints of doubt in their wake) simply because they insist on authenticating/grading their own items. nor do i understand why some want to pretend that this sort of practice, autheticating/grading one's own item, is perfectly benign and not frought with potential abuse.

as far as the robert edward "disclaimer" is concerned, imho it falls well short of full disclosure - it assumes that the general public understands the inner workings of mears, how the grading process is determined and who determines the final grade. mears, a sports memorabilia evaluation service and dealer, is the owner and seller of this jersey. they have determined the jersey's authenticity and have awarded it the highest grade available. information regarding mears can be found at mearsonline.com. that's closer to full disclosure imo.

but here's the thing - we're talking about items that fetch tens of thousands of dollars. the fact that mears ponied up to purchase such items alone speaks volumes given their expertise in the field. so why muddy the water? why not seek out a reputable third party authenticator to confirm what mears already knows. call it peer review. now you have a gem offered from the personal colection of one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the world (mears) independently authenticated by xyz. it looks and smells better - and in the long run would be well worth the relatively small layout for the thrid party evaluation imo....

robert, what you say makes such clear, perfect sense that i'm positive you're going to encounter some violent opposition. for convenience and brevity, let me save some their wildly non-sequitur responses to robert's fantastic post:

- "if you don't like the system, don't use it" (my favorite. helps ensure the status quo. castro probably had it tattooed on himself).

- "mears makes lots of money" (if something's profitable then it can't possibly be unethical!).

- "mears is better than everyone else" (and therefore is perfect and can't possibly be improved so stop trying).

- "everyone else consigns and grades their own items". (if a lot of people are doing something they shouldn't then it's ok. not sure why that logic didn't fly at the nuremberg trials).

- "conflict of what? all they're doing is personally purchasing items, using their position as unbiased, objective authenticators to assign grades to their own items and then reselling these items for their own personal profit, which in turn is determined by the grade they've assigned to their items. where's the conflict in any of that? you're crazy".

rudy.

Moustache Gang
11-19-2008, 07:31 PM
The 5th example Rudy provided in the previous post may just be the tip of the iceberg or it could be one of a few incidents that has surrounded Bushing. I am referring to the 1968 Lew Krausse A's jersey that was owned by Bushing and auctioned off in the 2008 REA auction.

Most of us agree that MEARS is the best authentication firm around or would at least agree that the MEARS evaluation process is more comprehensive than most others especially the very subjective Lampson grading scale and evaluation process.

If MEARS takes hours to review a game used jersey and put it through a rigorous audit to come up with a final score based on 30+ identifiers, matching color plates, alterations, etc how then can Bushing miss a stain on the front of 1968 gold flannel jersey that is larger than the size of a quarter and can clearly be seen by a guy with 20/600 vision?

One answer is that in most cases a grade of an A-10 will bring in more money than an A-9 or A-8.

By the way after much consternation and impirical evidence showing it was indeed a stain the jersey was re-evaluated and given a score of an A-10.


Mark

Moustache Gang
11-19-2008, 07:36 PM
Forum members...

I apologize for my last email...after much consternation and empirical evidence the Krausse jersey was re-evaluated and given a final score of an A-9 One point was subtracted for the stain.

Mark

trsent
11-20-2008, 01:03 AM
Based on Dave Bushings four posts today on the MEARS forum, I guess it is safe to say people have really gotten under his skin.

It is too bad, Dave Bushing appears to try hard and works with MEARS and their policies and then people always bring up issues that MEARS has fully addressed each and every time.

I guess no one will ever be happy, but MEARS appears to me to be working in a positive direction, just as the GUU Auction House, to work with the public in case there is any reason for discussion.

wjonesIII
11-20-2008, 09:09 AM
why not seek out a reputable third party authenticator to confirm what mears already knows. call it peer review. now you have a gem offered from the personal colection of one of the most knowledgeable collectors in the world (mears) independently authenticated by xyz. it looks and smells better - and in the long run would be well worth the relatively small layout for the thrid party evaluation imo.

Who is that authenticator then? I know Taube and Specht were mentioned for bats, but who will authenticate their jerseys? GFC, Mastro, etc, AMI, and even the GUU auction all have had "suspect/questionable" items in their auctions that their authenticators passed prior to the auction opening for bidding, but then were later proven to have issues. Do you think MEARS wants those auction houses with a history of mistakes to authenticate the MEARS owned items?

Troy has clearly stated that he wants you to show him who else has the MEARS resources, experience, rules, etc? There have been names mentioned for bats that are acceptable, but name one jersey expert or authentication company who hasn't made some high profile mistakes discussed on this board?

lund6771
11-20-2008, 11:04 AM
Who is that authenticator then? I know Taube and Specht were mentioned for bats, but who will authenticate their jerseys? GFC, Mastro, etc, AMI, and even the GUU auction all have had "suspect/questionable" items in their auctions that their authenticators passed prior to the auction opening for bidding, but then were later proven to have issues. Do you think MEARS wants those auction houses with a history of mistakes to authenticate the MEARS owned items?

Troy has clearly stated that he wants you to show him who else has the MEARS resources, experience, rules, etc? There have been names mentioned for bats that are acceptable, but name one jersey expert or authentication company who hasn't made some high profile mistakes discussed on this board?

I agree with Rudy....

this is not a small time hobby anymore!...it has gone from local flea markets and card shows to a multi-million dollar industry...Multi-million dollar industries need some sort of regulation....unfortunately, it hasn't caught up yet....So who's going to decide what prcatices are ethical and legal?...the guys behind the tables who originated from these flea markets?

if Bushing wants to authenticate his own items, I don't have a problem with it, but it should not be the ONLY authentication...and it doesn't matter what is disclosed

I agree WJones that the places listed above are not the best authenticators, but there should be at LEAST ONE third party looking at this!....it would help diminsh the "conflict of interest" level

someone still needs to explain to me how this Jim Brown jersey, that is as durable as the t-shirt I'm wearing, would not be destroyed from even a few games....wasn't that the intent of the tear away, so that it would TEAR AWAY!!!!!...maybe the jersey is real, but game worn?...
we're talking common sense, not how many OTHER tear aways I have seen that don't show any wear

this would be an ideal situation for third party discussion or authentication...ecspecially when we are talking about a piece that is worth $50,000

Nathan
11-20-2008, 11:35 AM
Thanks to Troy for a fairly detailed response.

That said, the issue is exactly what Rudy and Robert are saying it is. Someone authenticating their own acquisitions and consigning them to an auction house, in spite of how transparent or opaque the various policies may be, creates the appearance of a conflict of interest and of impropriety.

Let's say this wasn't MEARS involved; let's say it was Lampson. Lampson buys a jersey from sources unknown, writes a letter authenticating it, and then consigns it to an auction house. Regardless of how good or bad the item may be (and we'll certainly discuss it here), it creates the impression that he's hacking it for an added buck. I mean, the guy told me to my face that the he had never seen anything that would indicate that the Orioles ever wore green jerseys when I asked him about the green Ripken jersey; really, that's not the point either.

The point is, in spite of any acts of full disclosure and transparency, bidders are supposed to be fine with the fact that a jersey was purchased by someone who then authenticated it and is currently consigning it.

trsent
11-20-2008, 04:51 PM
So, what does everyone want?

Dave Bushing has sold his shares of MEARS, and he will not be working for them anymore. The MEARS For Sale site is not going away. Troy Kinunen has made it clear that he is going to continue to write LOAs for his own memorabilia and he will fully disclose any item being sold with a MEARS LOA that originated from his collection as being his item with his personal LOA.

If you don't like it, buy elsewhere, but putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes now.

They are not going to use other authenticators, as for some items they do not feel there is anyone more qualified. They are doing what they feel they have to do to run a business, and I am pretty sure they are doing their best to show their efforts this way.

If you do not like it, do not buy it. If you are like Rudy, genuinely concerned about people buying items that they do not understand the concept, I do not know what to tell you.

There is a gas station around the corner from me that today gas is priced at $2.79 a gallon. Across the street there is gas priced at $2.08 a gallon. I cannot stand there all day and let everyone who is paying .71-cents more a gallon know that they are paying too much. I have to worry about more important things.

I'm sure people will complain about my comparison, but it is the same sour grapes. People want to tell others how to spend their money and run their private businesses.

Now a business has broken ground with full disclosure, and it is still not good enough. Other businesses are buying, selling and authenticating their own items (or having suspect 3rd party authenticators authenticate it) and no one is complaining - Because they do not know it is happening.

Now an industry player has offered 100% full disclosure, and it just isn't good enough.

Sorry, Charlies, they have made a great effort and as usual, the complainers are just SOUR GRAPES as if these complainers would look at similar situations and see 0% ownership disclosure - 0% authentication disclosure they would have something more mature to debate.

lund6771
11-20-2008, 05:45 PM
Joel...

I don't think that anyone would disagree with you that Mears is putting everything all out there....by far more than anyone else

But I think the point is not in comparing Mears to other auction house's practices....it's just a simple and basic point that people should not be the ONLY authenticators of their own items...

I have a hard time believeing that Mears feels that they are more knowledgable than EVERYONE else on EVERY item....my point being, I don't think that people are seeking 3rd party authentications from people like 100% Authentic and Lampson...I'm referring to people who specilaize in niches....

like Aeneous on helmets...they should have spcialized collectors look at these items...

Aeneous, I'm not trying to blow up your ego here...but I would consider someone like yourself, an expert in your field of collecting....your opinion ,with any Mears letter, should be more than an acceptable as third party authentication

you can't tell me that Aeneous is the only expert in any niche out there...I'm sure that the guys from Mears have spoken to many known collectors through out the years who specailize in many niches...

why not show these big ticket items to some of these experts?....obviously I think that it would be difficult to get EVERY piece of memorabilia looked at....but if they are going to be selling items for $50,000 +, don't you think it would be ethical to have someone take a 2nd look?

kingjammy24
11-20-2008, 05:49 PM
my apologies to the original poster of this thread for the way i've caused it to veer off course. i didn't intend to go down this path at all. i simply thought i'd slip in a little quip about being surprised that a $70k jersey owned by troy and dave managed to get an A10 from troy and dave. in the past i swore i'd never bring up conflicts of interest because this discussion always goes down the same predictable path; a scant few get it, most don't and never will, and dave whips himself into a foamy-mouthed frenzy on the mears forum where he comes as close as a human being can come to combusting. that said, it was nice to see a few folks like robert, nathan, and lund really grasp the core issues so it gives me a little hope. i also thought dave grob's response was articulate, logical, and clear. truth is, i agree with almost all of what he says. it's nice to see that grob sees the value in intellectual discourse and can constructively debate things without turning into a petulant child who throws his arms in the air and screams he's quitting, selling all of his shares, and noone can play with his ball again. dave b: i understand you feel forced to reply to these things to defend yourself to your customers but truly, your responses do you far more damage than anything i could possibly write. despite all of that that, i think i'll hook myself up to an electrical device that'll be programmed to shock me when i start to type the words "conflict of..".

wjonesIII: you're talking about the actual feasibility and logistics of all of this. i simply was discussing the theoretical nature of it. if the hobby, as a whole, could see and agree that the consigner and the authenticator being the same person isn't in the best interest of buyers, that would be a massive step. i can't even get people to understand why it's a problem, much less discuss how to handle it. regardless, let me address your question of who could possibly authenticate jerseys for mears employees. the greatest collective knowledge in the hobby is not in the auction houses or "professional authenticators" but amongst hobbyists/niche experts that know more about their niche than any of the "big names". is there anyone who wouldn't gladly accept a letter from aeneas about helmets or howard wolf on vintage phillies jerseys or patrick scoggin on broncos jerseys? patrick has probably forgotten more about broncos shirts than bushing will ever know. furthermore, it's hard to imagine that anyone in the hobby has a bigger rolodex than dave bushing. the man must know how to contact every single dealer, authenticator, and niche expert around. to answer your question, all dave would have to do is find the "aeneas" of vintage browns jerseys. somewhere out there is an individual who's spent his entire collecting tenure doing nothing but studying vintage browns jerseys and, like the niche experts mentioned above, his word would gladly be accepted amongst collectors of that niche. of course, all of this depends on whether you want the letter in order to genuinely suss out an item or if you simply want it to boost the value of an item. no doubt a mears letter adds a financial premium. people love seeing a name that's been heavily marketed as "the foremost expert" even if the reality is that foremost expert (on everything from gloves to football jerseys to baseball bats) doesn't actually know more about a given niche than a niche expert.

nathan & lund: exactly

joel: "putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes". yes that's exactly what this is all about. we're all pissed that mears offers 100% disclosure. anyway, as for yours and danny's comments about folks never being satisfied and things not being good enough, well i suppose there are some who are perfectly content with the status quo and never improving and others who constantly seek to help things become better. until reading your posts i never realized that striving for constant improvement was a bad thing. thanks for the enlightenment.

rudy.

trsent
11-20-2008, 06:01 PM
joel: "putting MEARS down for offering 100% full disclosure is just sour grapes". yes that's exactly what this is all about. we're all pissed that mears offers 100% disclosure. anyway, as for yours and danny's comments about folks never being satisfied and things not being good enough, well i suppose there are some who are perfectly content with the status quo and never improving and others who constantly seek to help things become better. until reading your posts i never realized that striving for constant improvement was a bad thing. thanks for the enlightenment.

rudy.

Rudy, as usual, you have to take rebuttals personally and that is not fair. I give my views on the debate, and you have to thank me for the enlightenment.

I believe the MEARS staff actually has 3rd party people they work with who are experts in certain areas and they contact them when they wish to check their work. The speculation sounds as if MEARS doesn't ever go to their friends and associates in the industry who can verify such information when they wish to check/balance or just plain need help identifying an item. I know for a fact they do contact associates for check/balances and when they are stumped.

You got your shots in against Dave Bushing - You can sleep better knowing that your posts had something to do with Dave Bushing selling off his shares of MEARS.

Maybe you should stop speculating what MEARS does or doesn't do in their process of authenticating an item because you are not there and they are not going to use another authenticator for an item they are confident in and will stand behind with full disclosure of ownership.

Yes, SOUR GRAPES.

Rudy, you don't address my concerns, which are why not attack the auction houses that are buying items, in house authenticating these items (or using a suspect 3rd party authenticator), and then selling the items at their own auction house without disclosing that they own the item?

You rather pick on Dave Bushing (and brown nose Dave Grob) for together having a company that fully discloses any item them own and authenticate. This is just too easy for you.

At least when MEARS looks to sell an item that they have fully disclosed ownership of along with authentication - We know you will find their practice wrong, and you have that right - You will have a right to check/balance their work and if you find issues they will address your concerns as few others in the industry will.

In the meantime, did you want the addresses of those gas stations? You could help a lot of innocent people save a lot of money.

trsent
11-20-2008, 06:04 PM
Joel...

I don't think that anyone would disagree with you that Mears is putting everything all out there....by far more than anyone else

But I think the point is not in comparing Mears to other auction house's practices....it's just a simple and basic point that people should not be the ONLY authenticators of their own items...

I have a hard time believeing that Mears feels that they are more knowledgable than EVERYONE else on EVERY item....my point being, I don't think that people are seeking 3rd party authentications from people like 100% Authentic and Lampson...I'm referring to people who specilaize in niches....

like Aeneous on helmets...they should have spcialized collectors look at these items...

Aeneous, I'm not trying to blow up your ego here...but I would consider someone like yourself, an expert in your field of collecting....your opinion ,with any Mears letter, should be more than an acceptable as third party authentication

you can't tell me that Aeneous is the only expert in any niche out there...I'm sure that the guys from Mears have spoken to many known collectors through out the years who specailize in many niches...

why not show these big ticket items to some of these experts?....obviously I think that it would be difficult to get EVERY piece of memorabilia looked at....but if they are going to be selling items for $50,000 +, don't you think it would be ethical to have someone take a 2nd look?

I believe the 2nd look is coming from the collecting community. How many suspect items get brought up on this forum? There is a lot of behind the scenes homework being done.

If you expect MEARS to come to this forum and ask for help, that is not going to happen. Too many people have attacked them when they have really had an open door policy to listening and addressing concerns since I have been involved with MEARS.

kingjammy24
11-20-2008, 06:14 PM
some excellent points from mears' dave grob on all of this:

"I think it is counter productive to address this, at times emotionally charged issue, through the rationale of "look what everyone else is either doing or not doing".

couldn't agree more. reminds me of those folks who get a speeding ticket and spend their entire time pointing out to the cop all of the other folks were speeding too as if it has any relevancy whatsoever.

"MEARS should rightly expect to be the object of scrutiny and attention for any number of reasons. Much of what we have done in terms of process and procedures has been the result of either solicited or unsolicited collector feedback... We are comfortable with who we are as individuals and as an organization. This is not the same thing as being complacent. I would like to think we are always looking for ways to improve what we do and how we do it."

"The other thing is that we (MEARS) can not be afraid to have these issues come to public light and debate. I have always felt that fear of embarrassment and the cost to ones reputation, both personally and professionally, should act as primal motivator to do the best job you can every day and every time."

well you can either have it motivate you to do your best or you can quit, go home, and lament that everyone has it out for you and it's all personal.
i guess it all depends on your mettle.

entire post here:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1227150709/Dueling+Message+Boards

rudy.

trsent
11-20-2008, 06:20 PM
well you can either have it motivate you to do your best or you can quit, go home, and lament that everyone has it out for you and it's all personal.
i guess it all depends on your mettle.

rudy.

Rudy, point blank question:

Do you have issues with Dave Bushing as a collector, dealer and authenticator?

I am not asking if you have issues with his position in the industry, do you have a vendetta against him personally because that is what your attacks, time and time again, begin to look like.

kingjammy24
11-20-2008, 06:30 PM
I believe the MEARS staff actually has 3rd party people they work with who are experts in certain areas and they contact them when they wish to check their work. The speculation sounds as if MEARS doesn't ever go to their friends and associates in the industry who can verify such information when they wish to check/balance or just plain need help identifying an item. I know for a fact they do contact associates for check/balances and when they are stumped.

i'm well aware that MEARS has niche experts help them out with nuggets of advice. this is very different than who ends up writing the final LOA and determining the final grade on the item. it's the grade that affects the sales value.


You got your shots in against Dave Bushing - You can sleep better knowing that your posts had something to do with Dave Bushing selling off his shares of MEARS.

it's going to take a lot more than witnessing another one of dave's awkward outbursts to make me sleep well at night.


Rudy, you don't address my concerns, which are why not attack the auction houses that are buying items, in house authenticating these items (or using a suspect 3rd party authenticator), and then selling the items at their own auction house without disclosing that they own the item?

because i had actual proof with the jim brown jersey. show me which other auction houses and authenticators are doing it and i'll be more than happy to discuss them as well. truthfully joel, i mean that. show me and i'll engage them. i need some actual proof though not just a private email saying "i hear so-and-so might possibly have some ownership interest in this item they graded..but i'm not sure so don't quote me".

when doug allen was found to have consigned a kellen winslow helmet that he had a financial interest into his auction without so much as any disclosure, i think i squeezed that one for at least 6 or 7 posts. i publically questioned how it was possible for the head of an auction house to fail to adhere to his own policies and standards. as well, i've constantly wondered aloud on this forum how GFC can be a dealer/
authenticator/auction house without smashing every conflict of interest to the ground. if you and bushing think i haven't discussed the folks at mastro, GFC, AMI and lampson at length then you must've missed the first 1500 of my posts. for some bizarre reason you and bushing think i have something personal against him. i've never even met or spoken to the man so how could it be personal? truth is i rather like his shiny noggin and loud shirts. bushing gets discussed a lot because he's a very big fish who once worked for a firm that touted itself as the new standard of ethical conduct. that's fine to say but it also sets a pretty big expectation. i don't think they'd rather have it any other way though. dave's only other serious competitor is lampson and honestly, i think lampson's been discussed here once or even twice.

rudy.

kingjammy24
11-20-2008, 06:36 PM
I believe the 2nd look is coming from the collecting community. How many suspect items get brought up on this forum? There is a lot of behind the scenes homework being done.

If you expect MEARS to come to this forum and ask for help, that is not going to happen. Too many people have attacked them when they have really had an open door policy to listening and addressing concerns since I have been involved with MEARS.

it's not about private consultations. it's about who writes the final letter and issues the final grade. that is, it's about who specifically influences the sales price via the authentication.

rudy.

Nathan
11-20-2008, 07:47 PM
Rudy, as usual, you have to take rebuttals personally and that is not fair. I give my views on the debate, and you have to thank me for the enlightenment.

I believe the MEARS staff actually has 3rd party people they work with who are experts in certain areas and they contact them when they wish to check their work. The speculation sounds as if MEARS doesn't ever go to their friends and associates in the industry who can verify such information when they wish to check/balance or just plain need help identifying an item. I know for a fact they do contact associates for check/balances and when they are stumped.

Joel,

Maybe it's just me, but if MEARS sent me a bagful of recent Tennessee Vols football jerseys and asked me to look at them, I'd want my name out there. And if it came down to being sent a bagful to look at that was owned by one of the higher-ups, common sense (to me anyway) would dictate that the split between the owner and the authenticator be made absolutely clear. In the interest of full disclosure, this would make sense. I believe it is beyond dispute that Dave purchased a Jim Brown jersey, his company authenticated it, and it is now consigned at auction. I also believe it is beyond dispute that this creates, at best, an enormous perception of impropriety.

Let's consider this. Say someone walks in off the street and offers me a UT Peyton Manning jersey (the ultimate grail) with no documentation. I purchase it with the intention of flipping it for a huge profit; all that I need is the authentication. I'm confident that I would be able to do it, but I would have one of the following two things happen:
1) Have someone else of similar knowledge authenticate it without me being involved, or
2) Have someone closely involved or of similar knowledge authenticate it as a supplement to my own authentication.

Since I don't like being a target for much of anything, I believe that I would go out of my way to emphasize the fact that someone "in the know" who is otherwise uninvolved also believes it to be good, and I certainly wouldn't be drawing up my own authentication letter using my own company. My goal, besides a tidy profit, would be to avoid the slightest appearance of a conflict of interest. If that means tracking down the equipment managers from that time frame and having them look at it and finding Peyton Manning and finding it as well as scouring for a photomatch, that's what it would take.

Joel, this isn't about who else is doing what or what advances MEARS has or hasn't made compared to the largely shady world of authenticating. This is about whether, in this case here, there is a conflict of interest. This is about whether, in this case here, there is the possibility for fraud to have been committed. This is about whether, in this case here, a neutral observer would question the manner in which this is being done.

I commend MEARS for going further than the others are going and certainly for striving toward full disclosure. I don't believe this case helps that cause at all.

trsent
11-20-2008, 08:15 PM
Nathan and Rudy, fine. You don't like the way they run their business but they are not going to change it.

They have revolutionized the industry with full disclosure and if you do not like it, please continue to complain about it but at the end of the day they are doing what they find best for their business and their integrity.

No one has to buy their items, but they have set a standard that others ignore because they wish to play by rules that we wouldn't approve but since we don't know the inside facts and MEARS gladly discloses such facts for public record they get people to insult their full disclosure policy.

beantown
11-20-2008, 09:01 PM
How about if MEARS has an item of their own they authenticate, its fully disclosed and examined/authenticated by an independent 3rd party...

Nathan
11-20-2008, 11:57 PM
Nathan and Rudy, fine. You don't like the way they run their business but they are not going to change it.

They have revolutionized the industry with full disclosure and if you do not like it, please continue to complain about it but at the end of the day they are doing what they find best for their business and their integrity.

No one has to buy their items, but they have set a standard that others ignore because they wish to play by rules that we wouldn't approve but since we don't know the inside facts and MEARS gladly discloses such facts for public record they get people to insult their full disclosure policy.

Joel,

You again totally miss the point. I'm not saying that a phony item is being passed off as authentic by someone looking to turn a quick buck on the back of an unsuspecting collector. I'm saying that, to neutral observers or interested uninvolved observers, it would appear that there is either a conflict of interest or impropriety. Were I in the position of someone who is looking to flip a jersey or other item, I would go out of my way to whatever extent possible to ensure that there is ZERO appearance of a conflict of interest or a possible conflict of interest.

I appreciate MEARS; I have yet to use their services, but I believe they've set a standard that no one else seems to have any interest in touching. But a situation like this doesn't help their perception. If this were Lampson who acquired a jersey, then consigned it after a letter from "100% Authentic" were drawn up for it, wouldn't we be all over that and justifiably so? The various MEARS policies are terrific, but this particular situation doesn't look like something to herald.

trsent
11-21-2008, 12:22 AM
Joel,

You again totally miss the point. I'm not saying that a phony item is being passed off as authentic by someone looking to turn a quick buck on the back of an unsuspecting collector. I'm saying that, to neutral observers or interested uninvolved observers, it would appear that there is either a conflict of interest or impropriety. Were I in the position of someone who is looking to flip a jersey or other item, I would go out of my way to whatever extent possible to ensure that there is ZERO appearance of a conflict of interest or a possible conflict of interest.

I appreciate MEARS; I have yet to use their services, but I believe they've set a standard that no one else seems to have any interest in touching. But a situation like this doesn't help their perception. If this were Lampson who acquired a jersey, then consigned it after a letter from "100% Authentic" were drawn up for it, wouldn't we be all over that and justifiably so? The various MEARS policies are terrific, but this particular situation doesn't look like something to herald.


Ok, MEARS fully discloses their items, and that is all there is to it. Rudy can continue to complain about it, but the facts are clear and Troy Kinunen and Dave Grob have made every effort to publicly disclose this information and if people don't like this policy THEY DO NOT HAVE TO BUY IT.

Comparing this to if Lou Lampson consigns an item to AMI and it is authenticated by 100% Authentic, which is his signature, but AMI and Lou Lampson fully discloses they have authenticated the item: WHO CARES?

It is the same concept, and they are telling any potential buyers they owned and authenticated the item.

Then again, you could just deal with Mastro Auctions, who has a panel of secret authenticators who authenticate items and no one knows who owns the items or who authenticates them.

Again - If you do not like this policy, do not buy MEARS For Sale Items.

This debate is getting old. Having Rudy say that he never met Dave Bushing so he is not out to get him, but then he picks on Dave Bushing's taking his attacks personally time and time again shows a pattern.

I will defend any authenticator (and there are not many) who write letters for their own memorabilia and sell it retail or auction.

Oh wait - I just figured it out - Grey Flannel has been doing this since day one and no one whined about it because they do not mention that they own all the items for sale on their web site.

Guys, find better rationale or just do what an educated consumer would do - Buy elsewhere.

MEARS has done what no one else has the guts to do because they want to be honest and show an effort but all they get is people who scream "Conflict of Interest" and you know what it is a conflict of interest that they fully disclose which no one else in the industry has ever done.

Finally, as for "Missing the point" I guess you just want to join the bandwagon that this debate is over a conflict of interest - Which it is and MEARS know this, so they fully disclose such so there is no one who can complain but...

Oh wait, the usual complainers come here.

I already received an email today from a forum reader who says he is tired of the debaters always making it personal and he will no longer post on the forum, and he was a semi-regular contributor.

As usual, the masses think they are going to change the world when the changes for the good are positive and their solutions are not even reasonable.

Like MEARS is going to send their game used items to Lou Lampson for authentication. I hope others are laughing at this also. The solution is simple, MEARS writes LOAs for their own items and the FULLY DISCLOSE THIS CONFLICT OF INTEREST so anal buyers like Rudy do not buy such items since they are losing sleep over such a practice.

trsent
11-21-2008, 12:24 AM
Let me make the point totally clear so there is no confusion:

MEARS KNOWS THE CONCEPT IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST SO THEY FULLY DISCLOSE SUCH IN ADVANCE SO ANYONE WHO IS LOOKING AT AN ITEM MEARS OWNS AND AUTHENTICATED IS TOLD SUCH IN ADVANCE SO THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN DETERMINATION.

MEARS KNOWS THIS IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST - NO GAMES - THEY DISCLOSE SUCH.

helmets
11-21-2008, 07:25 AM
Wow, I'm not much of an NFL collector, would like to add more to the few I have, but have everyone seen the lots in the next Mastro auction? Has to be the largest offering of old NFL jerseys I have seen. I hate auctions, but if you like looking at football jerseys you have to check this stuff out:


http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?Action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Search%20List

I bet ol' Number9 had no idea this thread was going to turn into this...

I sure wish I would have been allowed to grade all of my own papers and tests in college. I'd be making a lot more money...

jboosted92
11-21-2008, 03:15 PM
Let me make the CONFLICT OF INTEpoint totally clear so there is no confusion:

MEARS KNOWS THE CONCEPT IS A REST SO THEY FULLY DISCLOSE SUCH IN ADVANCE SO ANYONE WHO IS LOOKING AT AN ITEM MEARS OWNS AND AUTHENTICATED IS TOLD SUCH IN ADVANCE SO THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN DETERMINATION.

MEARS KNOWS THIS IS A CONFLICT OF INTEREST - NO GAMES - THEY DISCLOSE SUCH.


Save your breath, Joel.....your arguing with an entity that adds no value to the hobby other than grandstanding. A10, A9, A4...it doesnt matter, if item meets the grading criteria in the Policy, WHICH was created PRIOR to said item. Dave could buy 100 GU jerseys and MEARS could grade them A10...it doesnt matter...cause ...The rules were made before the game. "IF" said item is found to be mistaken by the "actual" buyer, then said buyer can discuss with MEARS and there buyback policies.

MEARS does a great job of responding to everyones thoughts, even if they are exorbitant to the issue. Frankly, I would continue to send links to the policies that are put in place than continue to entertain weightless discussions. However, hats off to them for caring.

G1X
11-21-2008, 10:19 PM
Instead of entering into the debate about conflicts of interest, I would like to point out a hidden nugget in this thread that is absolutely invaluable to any football jersey collector who has interests in collecting 20th century football jerseys. This information can be found in post #15 where Joel Alpert quotes Troy Kinunen's post on the MEARS website regarding older football jerseys.

Troy is dead-on in his assessment. I have been very fortunate to have had thousands of game-worn football jerseys go through my hands over the years, and I can attest that my experiences and observations are in total agreement with Mr. Kinunen.

Football jerseys for most of the 20th century were made differently and worn differently than today's jerseys. Modern jerseys are not only designed differently, they are worn very tightly. With this combination, it doesn't take much to damage a modern jersey. Older jerseys were more durable by design, and players tended to wear them more loosely. It took a lot more pulling and tugging, hits, and other similar abuse to create rips and tears.

In my humble opinion, and with all due respect to Troy, labeling the Jim Brown jersey as a tear-away jersey has created a bit of confusion and understandable questioning from some GUU members. Although I have not seen the jersey in person, judging from the photos, it appears to be simply a case where a lighter weight durene was used in manufacturing and not an actual tear-away material. (The above observation is not intended to be interpreted as any type of validation or dismissal of MEARS grading of this jersey.)

For a little background on tear-away jerseys, this style came into prominence around 1970 when college teams such as Texas, Oklahoma, and Alabama started running the wishbone. It didn't take much to destroy a tear-away jersey. Living in Alabama at the time, I was never surprised to see the QB or running backs make several changes during a game. The equipment staff would have extra jerseys tucked in their belts so that they could make quick changes on the sidelines. (The lineman and defensive players normally did not wear tear-aways.)

If the Jim Brown jersey was a true tear-away, Troy's "tugging match" would have turned a very valuable jersey into a couple of strips of cloth!

Troy's very informative and educational observation of older jerseys bears repeating. I beg each football jersey collector out there to read and absorb this golden nugget.

It is often noted that a jersey has to exhibit team repairs to be considered heavily worn. This is not a universal truth and wear can manifest itself in additional visible manners. For example, examine the area of the crotch piece of this jersey. Along the button opening reinforced stitching, you can see areas of fraying. This was caused from the buttoning and unbuttoning of the piece. The game wear is visible when examining the stress and contact marks found on the fabric. This is especially visible when examining the area of the numeral surfaces. The use may be considered light by some when comparing the fabric to a dureene example with visible team repairs, but close examination reveals wear to the overall areas of the fabric of the body shell, crotch piece and numerals.

Over the past 3 years, I have personally handled nearly 300 game used NFL jerseys. I have purchased many of them on Ebay, dealers, and game used forum members. One of the key components I have noticed was the absence of team repairs. Most of these jerseys were of common players. They were purchased with the intentions to obtain fabric samples and color templates for the MEARS archives. After each jersey was archived, many were sold.

By handling such a large random sample, I was able to empirically illustrate that NFL jerseys would have medium to heavy game wear, without team repairs. Some jerseys were found to have team repairs, but I would estimate that less than 10% of the jerseys were found with team repairs. Therefore, with the aid of actual examples, I was able to document that game worn jerseys of common players were found in high percentages (90%) to not have team repairs.

A counter argument is that common players are not superstars, nor running backs, and common players should not have the same amount of game wear as a running back of Brown's calibre. Many of the samples that we examined were of everyday starting lineman, considered common players by collectors standards. These lineman jerseys were worn in every down, yet did not have repairs. It is also interesting to note that on several instances, MEARS issued unable to authenticate on super star jerseys, bearing manufactured or contrived team repairs. It is our expert opinion team repairs do not alone make a jersey real or fake.

Now, I do not mean to offend the many collectors that have NFL jerseys exhibiting team repairs. I know they exist, and have a database file of photographed players with visible team repairs. I just want to illustrate that a jersey does not have to have a team repair in order to be considered authentic or having heavy game wear.

If any interested parties would like to further discuss the team repairs vs. non team repairs debate, I would be willing to extend an invitation this spring to the new MEARS Research and Conference Center. Our color plate copies of the NFL jerseys referenced above are available for any interested parties. We can compare your actual jerseys to our referenced color plate examples.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

lund6771
11-22-2008, 02:24 AM
Mark...I'm looking at this outside the box...

There is fraying around the buttons from buttoning and un-buttoning the crotch piece?....that's how this is deduced as being game worn?...please

Was this jersey matched up against a known to be 100% real Jim Brown from this era? Noone knows beacuse the A10 worksheet says nothing....it reads "moderate use", "no repairs"....hmmmmm, so let's give it an A10, because if we give it a grade less than that, it won't fetch as much....what a bunch of BS...

seeing the conflict of interest yet Joel?

what do you think this jersey would have sold for if Mears would have listed it as Real, but unable to be 100% certain if it was worn on the field....like an A5 or so....half at best?

You talk about how Mears is so revolutionary....are all of the fake jerseys that have a grading of A5 revolutionary?....

until Mears decided that they were going to be an auction house, I don't think that you can make a comparison with GFC, Mastro, AMI, etc...Mears WAS an authenticator and the others are auction houses....but now that they are an auction house, they can grade everything an A10 so that they can squeeze every last penny out of the collector with their system

cohibasmoker
11-22-2008, 08:28 AM
I'd like to make 2 statements:

First: I think Mark and Troy have it right. I believe it should be a combination of factors and not just whether or not a jersey has wear on it or not when trying to determine authenticity of a jersey. How can someone discount a jersey because it does NOT have a lot of wear? Who can say what the journey of any jersey, vintage or modern, was if they weren't in the locker-room? There could be a multitude of reasons why a jersey doesn't show wear - it could have been stolen, donated to charity, player superstitions, injury, player released or taken by a player or staff member and given away to friends. It could have been removed after one game, two games or a seasons worth of use.

Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.

But that's just my opinion.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

trsent
11-22-2008, 09:12 AM
Mark...I'm looking at this outside the box...

There is fraying around the buttons from buttoning and un-buttoning the crotch piece?....that's how this is deduced as being game worn?...please

Was this jersey matched up against a known to be 100% real Jim Brown from this era? Noone knows beacuse the A10 worksheet says nothing....it reads "moderate use", "no repairs"....hmmmmm, so let's give it an A10, because if we give it a grade less than that, it won't fetch as much....what a bunch of BS...

seeing the conflict of interest yet Joel?

what do you think this jersey would have sold for if Mears would have listed it as Real, but unable to be 100% certain if it was worn on the field....like an A5 or so....half at best?

You talk about how Mears is so revolutionary....are all of the fake jerseys that have a grading of A5 revolutionary?....

until Mears decided that they were going to be an auction house, I don't think that you can make a comparison with GFC, Mastro, AMI, etc...Mears WAS an authenticator and the others are auction houses....but now that they are an auction house, they can grade everything an A10 so that they can squeeze every last penny out of the collector with their system

Ok, so you don't like the system - Don't bid in their auctions or buy items with their letters. Next issue...

What "fake jerseys that have grading of A5" are you refering to?

I believe the forum rules require you to give examples of such and not just such a broad statement. Forgive me if I am wrong, but your statement doesn't have any facts to back it up.

lund6771
11-22-2008, 09:22 AM
Smoker...

I think with having the various grades of A5-A10 is what part of my issue is here...the difference in auction sales from an A5-A10 is enormous...and when the authenticator puts numerous pieces in an auction, that are all graded a perfect A10, that raises a lot of ethical questions

I think the whole authentication business is a scam....

I agree with all that Mears is trying to set new levels of standards...but when you compare that level in this industry vs other industries in the REAL world, Mears' standards are still in the horse and buggy stage

lund6771
11-22-2008, 09:28 AM
Good Morning Joel....

I don' want to wase my entire Saturday putting A5 examples up here....You've seen as many as I've seen over the years....how about Tom Brady's, Kobe Bryant, and Steelers jerseys?...go to E-bay, i'm sure there's a few Lebron James' on there....usually is

The A-5 is the biggest joke of all....if they would have gone with a pass/fail it wouldn't be as a big an issue to me...but the difference in $ between an A5 and an A10 is substantial

mvandor
11-22-2008, 09:45 AM
I'd like to make 2 statements:

First: I think Mark and Troy have it right. I believe it should be a combination of factors and not just whether or not a jersey has wear on it or not when trying to determine authenticity of a jersey. How can someone discount a jersey because it does NOT have a lot of wear? Who can say what the journey of any jersey, vintage or modern, was if they weren't in the locker-room? There could be a multitude of reasons why a jersey doesn't show wear - it could have been stolen, donated to charity, player superstitions, injury, player released or taken by a player or staff member and given away to friends. It could have been removed after one game, two games or a seasons worth of use.

Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.

But that's just my opinion.

Jim

flaa1a@comcast.net

That would actually drop them to the level of autograph authenticators. I think their grading system speaks to the LIKELIHOOD an item is legitimate. I assume obvious fakes get their "unable to authenticate", no?

trsent
11-22-2008, 10:10 AM
Good Morning Joel....

I don' want to wase my entire Saturday putting A5 examples up here....You've seen as many as I've seen over the years....how about Tom Brady's, Kobe Bryant, and Steelers jerseys?...go to E-bay, i'm sure there's a few Lebron James' on there....usually is

The A-5 is the biggest joke of all....if they would have gone with a pass/fail it wouldn't be as a big an issue to me...but the difference in $ between an A5 and an A10 is substantial

Ok, so you don't like their system, so what is the big deal? Don't buy items they have authenticated. Buy items authenticated by other authenticators.

You can pick and choose your arguments over the A5 grade, conceit facts are much more appealing than a blanket statement that you cannot back up without doing some homework.

G1X
11-22-2008, 11:00 AM
lund6771,

My post was not intended to validate the Jim Brown jersey, but rather to point out a very educational piece of information about older football jerseys stated by Troy Kinunen that was buried in post #15. I have not seen the Jim Brown jersey in person or held it in my hands, so I have no comment about its authenticity. That was the purpose of my disclaimer at the end of the fourth paragraph in my previous post.

I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors.

All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

otismalibu
11-22-2008, 11:24 AM
Ok, so you don't like their system, so what is the big deal? Don't buy items they have authenticated.

Based on this reasoning, I guess if you don't like slavery, don't buy slaves.

No one is forcing you to.

Sour grapes!!!

kingjammy24
11-22-2008, 12:48 PM
Second: I like MEARS and I think they do a good job. BUT, what's with the different grades of authenticity? A jersey should be either authentic or not authentic. It's like being pregnant - either you are or you are not pregnant. That's it.

Jim


i've long thought that as well. from what i can tell, MEARS' intention wasn't to render a conclusive verdict per se but simply provide information for buyers to make their own minds up. i can understand that, however, in that case, why even bother with subjective interpretations/evaluations? simply sell the raw research itself and really let folks make up their minds. rather than have bushing say a bat matches factory records and sell that opinion, for example, sell the actual factory record itself and really let folks make up their minds.

at the end of the day, all buyers ultimately care about is whether a jersey was likely to have been game-worn or not likely. "L" or "NL". simple huh? they could still outline all of their reasoning behind either grade in the corresponding worksheets. i still have no idea what the differences are between an A6, A7, A8, A9. i've read through all of their documentation and from what i gather you can get points taken off for things like a missing button or a stain. for the love of pete, what does a missing button have to do with authenticity? is a jersey with a missing button less likely to have been game worn than a jersey with the button intact? what's the difference between an A1 and an A3? all i know is both have serious issues. who cares about varying degrees of serious issues if the final point is that the jersey is "unlikely to have been game worn"? does it matter that one jersey has an incorrect nob font, incorrect numbers, and missing patch and the other has all of those plus it's the wrong size, wrong customization, and wrong material? they're both garbage! garbage is garbage. what's the benefit in discerning and categorizing different shades of garbage? "hey guys i got an A3. the jersey's got serious issues but thank god it's not an A1 because then i'd really be in trouble". it puts a tremendous onus on buyers to read through all of the grade definitions and understand them, which is an arduous task in itself.

as well, the grading system has really opened up a can of worms for mears. by having such a variable scale, it gives the individual authenticator a lot of leeway to slide across the grades. maybe, for example, he doesn't see a large stain on the front and maybe an A9 becomes an A10. this problem would be entirely avoided with a "Likely" and "Not likely" grade. it's simply too easy and too subjective to slide across 10 different grades and that's where many of MEARS headaches have come from. folks arguing they should've gotten an A8 instead of an A7 for example. simply having 2 grades would really simplify the entire thing for everyone. they could still include all of the worksheets.

rudy.

kingjammy24
11-22-2008, 01:31 PM
Based on this reasoning, I guess if you don't like slavery, don't buy slaves.

No one is forcing you to.

Sour grapes!!!

i'm surprised joel was such a fervant obama supporter given that barack ran on a platform of "change". one would've thought the alpertian response to barack's constant promises of substantial change would've been to tell him if he doesn't like the way america currently is, he's not forced to live here.

don't like how the war was handled, obama? sour grapes! obama's just jealous of bush's amazing military strategery!

rudy.

nyjetsfan14
11-22-2008, 01:47 PM
lund6771,

My post was not intended to validate the Jim Brown jersey, but rather to point out a very educational piece of information about older football jerseys stated by Troy Kinunen that was buried in post #15. I have not seen the Jim Brown jersey in person or held it in my hands, so I have no comment about its authenticity. That was the purpose of my disclaimer at the end of the fourth paragraph in my previous post.

I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors.

All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms


Greetings Mark, long time no chat. I hope this post finds you in good health and spirits. I trust you are enjoying a very successful Falcons season thus far.

I was leaning towards letting the well knowns air this one out but when I saw your post I decided to throw my hat in the ring as it is always a rewarding exchange when we interact regarding football collecting. While I understand most on this forum (and off) are unfamiliar with me, my Jets collection, and my experience/knowledge of Jets uniform traits I think you know a little bit about me. I personally authenticate all Jets pieces I purchase/trade for and put no stock in any third party authenticators and/or their documentation when it comes to Jets items (not saying that as a slight against any particular person rather I just prefer to do and trust my own research). If and when I have any doubts/questions about a Jets piece that I cannot answer with my extensive Jets library and resources I confer with a fellow Jets collector/friend who happens to be a respected member of this forum. I unfortunately have seen more misauthenticated (yes I am aware I may have just made up a word) Jets items for auction than I care to discuss.

With that being said, I was a bit taken aback when you agreed with the authenticator that 90 plus percent of legitimate vintage game worn AFL or NFL jerseys will demonstrate no team instituted repairs. This is absolutely positively not the case with New York Jets jerseys from the AFL or early merger era. Even most common Jets player jerseys from that particular era more often than not (that could be anywhere from 51% to 49% and up) will exhibit use to include team repairs (of course obviously a players position, type of playing style, and amount of playing time will have a dynamic impact on percentages). If someone offered me say a Matt Snell NY Jets AFL or early merger era game worn jersey that had no team repairs and tried to insinuate that it was in fact a perfect example of a Matt Snell jersey from said era, that would be a laughable scenario and an insult to my collecting knowledge. I would be further insulted if they tried to tell me good wear was shown via the crotch piece with evidence of numerous buttonings and unbuttonings. I am in no way saying that a jersey of such a player as Matt Snell displaying no team repairs would or could not have belonged to/been issued for/or used by Matt Snell nor am I saying that the crotch piece wear should not be taken into consideration but to give it a label of perfect example or A10 or whatever else someone might want to call it is just not correct in my mind. While undoubtedly there would be a percentage of jerseys from said era that might not exhibit team repairs (the approximate percentage could be debated I am sure and factors as mentioned above would come into play) I find it nearly impossible to fathom that 90 or more out of 100 jerseys of players who played significant time during that era would exhibit use without team repairs, to me that is irresponsible writing solely dedicated to selling a particular item.

When we talk about perfect examples or A10's it would only stand to reason that we expect the piece to be positively the premeire example of a jersey from that player. If we are talking about a perfect example of a Jan Stenereud game worn jersey that would more than likely be a jersey with no team instituted repairs but when we are talking about a Jim Brown game worn jersey, who was clearly one of the more physical runners to ever put on shoulder pads, I just don't feel a jersey of his without team repairs but with crotch piece wear would warrant a "perfect" label or A10. I think it was the grade awarded considering the above that really stirred the conflict of interset pot.

Before we annoint pieces with LOA's, grade numbers, worksheets, expert opinions, etc...
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=18550

Thanks for hearing me out Mark. All the best and enjoy the rest of the NFL season. Happy collecting to all and may everyone have a warm and safe Thanksgiving!

RKGIBSON
11-22-2008, 08:21 PM
First, I think the whole authentication field is a joke, a big rip off. The only impact any of them have had on this hobby is negative. I would think their mission is to deem a item real or not? I would like for them to admit they are not really interested is saying that a item is real or not, they are just interested in getting paid for every item that is submitted. A5 to me means that there is a 50/50 chance it is real. Its a score not a authentication. I would think that making your opinion something that is understandable and something that is not open to interpetation would be a goal if you really know what you are talking about. I would bet that most of their customers are dealers that are hoping to use their smoke and mirrors grading system to trick some unknowledgable person out of a few more bucks.

Joel, you seem to be the mouth piece for MEARS here. A couple questions;
How does any jersey that has a photo match not get the highest score? It is proven real, right?

How can any jersey that has no provenace, or photo match, get the highest score? Recieving the highest score should be reserved for a item that there is absolutely no doubt it is real, right?

I do not know any of the guys at MEARS. I would guess that each has a lot of knowledge on somethings and not much on others. Collectively they have a lot of knowledge. I would guess that to properly evaluate a Jim Brown jersey you would have had to have had one, that was known to be real, to compare to and proof that Brown wore this one, in order to render a opinion that this is perfect. It is true that general knowledge of Browns jerseys from this era could be obtained by looking at common player jerseys. I would think that if absolute accuracy was their goal in evaluating, potentially, one of the most significate jerseys in existance, the highest score would only be awarded if there was absolutely no doubt. If getting the most money out of a item was the goal, the scrutiny might be less.

Roger

RKGIBSON
11-22-2008, 08:47 PM
Joel,
You want examples of A5, heres a A8 graded LT jersey that cannot be proven real. The photo match say 83 photos and 84 Topps card, which is not correct. This type font was never used by the Giants in this era. Explain.


http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=12058&highlight=Lawrence+taylor

trsent
11-22-2008, 09:15 PM
Joel,
You want examples of A5, heres a A8 graded LT jersey that cannot be proven real. The photo match say 83 photos and 84 Topps card, which is not correct. This type font was never used by the Giants in this era. Explain.


http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=12058&highlight=Lawrence+taylor

I am sorry, your shouting is too hard to read.

Moustache Gang
11-22-2008, 09:23 PM
Joel,

I am not shouting at you. Can you explain RKGIBSON's example of the A* LT jersey?

Mark

trsent
11-22-2008, 09:52 PM
Joel,

I am not shouting at you. Can you explain RKGIBSON's example of the A* LT jersey?

Mark

Mark, I looked at the thread - Did MEARS respond to concerns? I can't find a copy of their A8 letter anywhere on the thread. What is the concern? Did they get addressed with MEARS? I see the jersey had a personal letter from Lou Lampson.

Someone didn't like the font, what did MEARS say when asked about it? What did Lou Lampson say?

How can I answer if the questions were never asked of MEARS or Lou Lampson? What does this jersey prove to the debate at hand?

G1X
11-22-2008, 10:00 PM
Hi Matt,

First and foremost, I feel the need to once again emphasize that my posts in this thread have nothing to do with MEARS grading system or the Jim Brown jersey. That issue continues to be brought up in the responses to my posts. I have no comment or opinion on the Jim Brown jersey as clearly stated in my last post as I have never seen this jersey in person or held it in my hands. I also have never given the MEARS grading system much thought as I simply do not depend on such when making purchase decision.

Let me also repeat a statement from my last post that seems to have been overlooked - "I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors. All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn."

The key words here are "in general". I have no doubt that the Jets jerseys from the 1960s that you have seen and owned show great use and repairs. And others in the hobby may have had similar experiences in what they collect. But while you are mainly a Jets collector and expert, Troy is seeing a wide variety of jerseys from virtually every team and league. He has a much wider sampling to observe than the average collector.

As for me, I have had thousands of jerseys go through my hands over the years simply by the virtue of being in the hobby for a very long time. I have also been fortunate to view major inventories of other dealers and several large personal collections. Being a dealer myself, I have had access to a lot more jerseys and a wider variety than the average collector. For example, I have bought out nearly an entire league (WLAF) consisting of over 500 jerseys, and have made team bulk buys through the years with the largest being close to 800 jerseys. This has given me the opportunity to see a lot of jerseys.

This doesn't make me or Troy any smarter than anyone else, it simply means that we have seen and studied a whole lot of stuff and have a fairly good idea of how many repaired jerseys we've seen in a very large sampling. I am certainly not discounting you or anyone else's experiences as we all have to go on what we've seen.

Regardless of all of that, after reading your post, I thought that the 90% figure might be a bit ambitious. So, I went downstairs and wandered through my personal collection and notes. I tried to come up with a variety of items. Here is what I found:

32 various NFL durene jerseys, 19 had no repairs - 59%

50 mesh Atlanta Falcons jerseys (1973 to 1999), 40 had no repairs - 80%

33 WFL jerseys (1974 & '75), 30 had no repairs - 91%

15 various NFL jerseys (players from UAB), 13 had no repairs - 87%

22 UAB jerseys (players who went on to the NFL), 20 had no repairs - 91%

In the 1990s, I purchased 521 jerseys directly from the WLAF from the league's first two seasons (1991 & '92). I made handwritten notes on each of the jerseys. In looking at those notes, 500 of the jerseys had no repairs - 96%

In my overall sampling of 673 jerseys, 91.5% did not have team repairs. It's not that these 673 sampled jerseys don't show nice use (some have holes, rips, runs, etc.), it's simply a matter that most do not have actual repairs.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

cohibasmoker
11-22-2008, 10:18 PM
Hi Matt,

I read with interest your thread and have just one question for you. The question is, just how many Jets jerseys, from the era you stated have you personally owned and/or personally examined to substantiate the below statement?

With that being said, I was a bit taken aback when you agreed with the authenticator that 90 plus percent of legitimate vintage game worn AFL or NFL jerseys will demonstrate no team instituted repairs. This is absolutely positively not the case with New York Jets jerseys from the AFL or early merger era. Even most common Jets player jerseys from that particular era more often than not (that could be anywhere from 51% to 49% and up) will exhibit use to include team repairs (of course obviously a players position, type of playing style, and amount of playing time will have a dynamic impact on percentages).

Jim

nyjetsfan14
11-22-2008, 10:39 PM
Hi Matt,

First and foremost, I feel the need to once again emphasize that my posts in this thread have nothing to do with MEARS grading system or the Jim Brown jersey. That issue continues to be brought up in the responses to my posts. I have no comment or opinion on the Jim Brown jersey as clearly stated in my last post as I have never seen this jersey in person or held it in my hands. I also have never given the MEARS grading system much thought as I simply do not depend on such when making purchase decision.

Let me also repeat a statement from my last post that seems to have been overlooked - "I was simply intending to make a point about 20th century football jerseys in general, not the Jim Brown jersey in question. In my 34 years of rambling around this hobby, this seems to be an area of collecting that is poorly understood by most collectors. All I am trying to do is share information from my experiences with those who are willing to listen and learn."

The key words here are "in general". I have no doubt that the Jets jerseys from the 1960s that you have seen and owned show great use and repairs. And others in the hobby may have had similar experiences in what they collect. But while you are mainly a Jets collector and expert, Troy is seeing a wide variety of jerseys from virtually every team and league. He has a much wider sampling to observe than the average collector.

As for me, I have had thousands of jerseys go through my hands over the years simply by the virtue of being in the hobby for a very long time. I have also been fortunate to view major inventories of other dealers and several large personal collections. Being a dealer myself, I have had access to a lot more jerseys and a wider variety than the average collector. For example, I have bought out nearly an entire league (WLAF) consisting of over 500 jerseys, and have made team bulk buys through the years with the largest being close to 800 jerseys. This has given me the opportunity to see a lot of jerseys.

This doesn't make me or Troy any smarter than anyone else, it simply means that we have seen and studied a whole lot of stuff and have a fairly good idea of how many repaired jerseys we've seen in a very large sampling. I am certainly not discounting you or anyone else's experiences as we all have to go on what we've seen.

Regardless of all of that, after reading your post, I thought that the 90% figure might be a bit ambitious. So, I went downstairs and wandered through my personal collection and notes. I tried to come up with a variety of items. Here is what I found:

32 various NFL durene jerseys, 19 had no repairs - 59%

50 mesh Atlanta Falcons jerseys (1973 to 1999), 40 had no repairs - 80%

33 WFL jerseys (1974 & '75), 30 had no repairs - 91%

15 various NFL jerseys (players from UAB), 13 had no repairs - 87%

22 UAB jerseys (players who went on to the NFL), 20 had no repairs - 91%

In the 1990s, I purchased 521 jerseys directly from the WLAF from the league's first two seasons (1991 & '92). I made handwritten notes on each of the jerseys. In looking at those notes, 500 of the jerseys had no repairs - 96%

In my overall sampling of 673 jerseys, 91.5% did not have team repairs. It's not that these 673 sampled jerseys don't show nice use (some have holes, rips, runs, etc.), it's simply a matter that most do not have actual repairs.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

To start off Mark I appreciate your experiences and knowledge combined with your willingness to share. As it pertains to your figures we can throw out everything but the first line as the rest isn't in the topic of discussion for this thread. So we'll go with your 59% (assuming they are from the era of our discussion). Then, as noted in my first post, it would behoove us to further break it down by position as of course kicker & QB jerseys are much less likely to exhibit repairs. Then we would have to eliminate players who never or rarely touched the field. I stand by my assessment that if we are looking at position players who actually played from the 50's and on into the 60's that 90+ percent of those jerseys not exhibiting team instituted repairs is just not even in the same area code as realistic. Again, that doesn't rule out a jersey as being legit but in a case where a player had a brutal style of play at a position where contact is constantly absorbed an A10 or perfect rating is absurd (I understand you are not making any statements on any particular piece). You can't possibly tell me that if you came across a Falcons Junior Coffey gamer that you would expect it to have no team instituted repairs or that you would feel as confident as you would with a Coffey jersey exhibiting team repairs? We can play numbers games all evening but it really comes down to a matter of common sense.

G1X
11-23-2008, 10:00 AM
Matt,

I think that we might not be on the same page. I was speaking of 20th century jerseys in general. The mid-1970s WFL jerseys and 1991-92 WLAF jerseys are 20th century as are 1973-1999 Falcons and late 1990s UAB jerseys, so they can't be eliminated in supporting my statement. Nor can the thousands and thousands of other jerseys I've held in my hand. Nor can all of the jerseys that Troy Kinunen has observed and recorded.

All we are trying to do is share information based on what we have observed.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

Number9
11-23-2008, 03:10 PM
Mark,
Fascinating factual numbers, thanks for sharing.


Mike

kingjammy24
11-23-2008, 03:57 PM
jim, matt, mark, et al.,

despite not being a football collector, i've been enjoying your discussion regarding team repairs and the brown jersey.

a couple of questions popped up for me, regarding the brown jersey. i'd appreciate your insight. it seems that some feel that the lack of team repairs on the brown jersey is a red flag. to my layman's sensibilities, in judging the brown jersey, i wonder if there's been a step missed. from what i can tell, the jersey's been described as having light use. even without considering team repairs, shouldn't such a shirt exhibit heavy use? that is, i'm sure it's possible for a football jersey to show heavy use without having any team repairs. even if we forget the entire issue of team repairs for a minute, ought there be other substantial signs of use for such a shirt? would the absense of heavy use on such a shirt be a red flag? mastro notes that "There are no team repairs, suggesting short-term overall usage most likely during the hot weather of early season games". i've seen some modern RB football gamers that were only used for a couple of games and they appeared hammered to all hell. even if the brown shirt were only worn for a few "early season games" and didn't necessitate any team repairs, should there not be substantially more use?

i've read both the REA and Mastro descriptions of the jersey. the Mastro description notes "light surface stress marks to the numbers". i'm not sure if this refers to the "folds" in the numbers but if it does, in my experience with baseball shirts, there's a noticeable difference between wash wear on numbers (puckering) and the folds that occur simply when the jersey is crumpled/folded up. i've left many jerseys folded up and they show the exact same types of "folds/stress marks" that are seen on the brown jersey. upon looking at a closeup of one of the numbers, it's clear that the folds really are caused by folds in the shirt and not by any sort of use.
http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/6850/sillywl2.jpg

perhaps the folds aren't what mastro is referring to when the refer to the "stress marks" though. at any rate, if the numbers had encountered use that resulted in stress marks, would it be a reasonable expectation that some of the threads on these numbers be torn?

anyway, thanks in advance for humoring a layman.

rudy.

nyjetsfan14
11-23-2008, 05:14 PM
Matt,

I think that we might not be on the same page. I was speaking of 20th century jerseys in general. The mid-1970s WFL jerseys and 1991-92 WLAF jerseys are 20th century as are 1973-1999 Falcons and late 1990s UAB jerseys, so they can't be eliminated in supporting my statement. Nor can the thousands and thousands of other jerseys I've held in my hand. Nor can all of the jerseys that Troy Kinunen has observed and recorded.

All we are trying to do is share information based on what we have observed.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

Mark, you didn't give me any props for dropping the Junior Coffey reference...I worked really hard to dig that one up just for you ;) Your Dirty Birds are looking good so far but might the Jets now be the class of the league? Should be a fun sprint to the finish! Again, Happy Thanksgiving.

G1X
11-24-2008, 12:30 AM
Matt,

All I can say is that I wish that I had ANY of Junior's #34 jerseys from that era! :)

Your Jets are rolling to the playoffs. Keep your fingers crossed for my team (a huge win today).

Best wishes for a Happy Thanksgiving!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

G1X
11-24-2008, 12:46 AM
Rudy,

Football jerseys for most of the 20th century were made differently and worn differently than today's jerseys. Modern jerseys are not only designed differently (with some being highly customized for the individual player), they are worn very tightly. With this combination, it doesn't take much to damage a modern jersey.

Older jerseys were more durable by design, and players tended to wear them more loosely. You rarely see special customization as most durene jerseys were sort of "box" cut and not tapered. It took a lot more pulling and tugging, hits, and other similar abuse to create rips and tears.

Hope this information is helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

aeneas01
11-25-2008, 05:30 AM
given the significance of the jim brown jersey and considering the wealth of quality information already posted about this jersey by very knowledgeable jersey collectors and guu forum members, i think a dedicated "jim brown jersey" thread should be started. perhaps the posts in this thread pertaining only to the brown jersey could be "extracted" leaving this thread to those that wish to continue discussing mears's business model (which i think is an important conversation). anyway i think it would be a shame if the highly educational jersey information found in this thread (troy, g1x, nyjetsfan14, kingjammy24, rkgibson, cohibasmoker, etc.) became lost in the other posts and eventually banished to page 20...

although i know virtually nothing about jerseys, i've always found game used vintage jerseys to be absolutely stunning - in my next life i will most likely opt for vintage jerseys over vintage lids, much easier to store and hide from the wife!

as far as the jb jersey is concerned, troy mentioned that he's personally handled over "300" jerseys in the past three years and has found that just 10% or so exhibit team repairs. first of all, "300" jerseys strikes me as a rather small reference sample - especially considering that mears has been presented to the sport memorabilia collecting public as a "research center". i'm not trying to be flippant here, i just think that this point is worth mentioning because a "research center" implies, at least to me, access to an extraordinary number of exemplars.

second, wouldn't any sample be rather meaningless unless the bulk of the examples were from the era in question? according to saleem choudhry (football hall of fame head researcher, 20+ years) who i spoke with on monday, vintage jerseys in the hall's possession from the jim brown era were recycled frequently and were prone to show team repairs and runs. in short, mr. choudhry's comments seemed to support exactly what forum member nyjetsfans14 stated earlier in this thread. anyway, i can't help but wonder if a sample of 300 jerseys from the late 50s & early 60s, used by starting rbs, lbs and linemen, would yield the same findings, the same 10% result.

btw, are there many photos or film footage available of jim brown actually wearing this sort of lightweight jersey in a game? there are clearly many promotional/portrait/program photos of jb posing in such a jersey but i've had no luck finding a photo (or film frame from my nfl films dvd collection) of him actually wearing such a jersey while in action. granted, i have not conducted an exhaustive search nor do i have a keen eye for for jerseys. but nonetheless i thought i would have quickly come across at least a few obvious game examples.

could it be that this jersey is something jb only wore during photo sessions, football card photo shoots, promotional shots, etc.? or could it even be a salesman sample - something a king o'shea sales rep proudly showed to nfl equipment managers around the league while boasting "jim wears a king o'shea"? if none of these scenarios can be conclusively ruled out, how can it be conclusively determined that the jersey was game worn given what appears to be light use?

as far as grading is concerned, the mears webite (for sale section) features several jerseys that fall into the salesman sample (jim covert), photo shoot (mario williams), game issued (derrick gainer) and lightly worn (blair kiel) categories. obviously none of these jerseys graded out at an a10 - but i wonder how the limited game use and light wear the kiel jersey exhibits (per mears's description) compares to the jb jersey. i'm sure such limited game use and light wear factored into the a5 the kiel was awarded, no? and weren't other jerseys graded by mears penalized points due to limited game use and wear? i believe there were a couple of threads discussing this some time ago. further, assuming two virtually identical jim brown jerseys (tags, etc.), would the one with a couple of team repairs and slightly greater wear score higher or lower than the one without repairs and lesser wear?

regarding the research conducted on this jersey, it's apparent that troy has studied the jersey - but were any other jersey experts consulted? specifically, were jersey experts that have extensive experience with jerseys from this era consulted? as i mentioned, on monday i spoke with saleem choudhry of the pro football hall of fame - among other things i asked him if the hall would ever assist a collector in determining a rare piece's authenticity, if someone could make an appointment to meet with a hall researcher to discuss the item and to compare it to exemplars in the hall's possession. mr. choudhry responded "absolutely". amazingly, mr. choudhry also told me that the hall is rarely, if ever, approached with such requests - he went on to say that those that contact the hall's research department almost always are seeking the hall's assistance in determining an item's value, not the likelihood of the item's authenticity. btw the hall will not assist collectors with an item's potential value! anyway after speaking with mr. choudhry i couldn't help but wonder if perhaps mears had approached the hall, had visited the hall to speak with their researchers and to examine their rather impressive inventory - especially considering that the hall also boasts three jim brown gamers. would this be an effort that a collector might expect from a "research center"? again, i'm not being flippant - it's an honest question.

here are a few photos showing jim brown sporting well worn, torn and/or repaired jerseys. is it at all possible that any of these jerseys, assuming they made into the collecting world and were photo matched, would score lower than an a10, lower than the mears jersey? let's say they weren't photo matched but were conclusively determined to be authenic jb gamers - is there any chance they would score below an a10? if so, how could this be possible? further, how could the mears jersey score an a10 if these jerseys existed? is it the absence of such jerseys that allows mears to score their jersey an a10?


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb01.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb04.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb03.jpg


here are a few promo photos showing jim brown sporting the type of lightweight jersey offered by mears through mastro. there really is no shortage of these type of "photo shoot" photos of jb sporting this type of jersey - but i haven't come across a photo of brown wearing such a jersey in a game, albeit i haven't pounded the pavement looking for one.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb02.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb05.jpg


and, for the heck of it, here are a few "non jim brown" vintage beauties from the pro football hall of fame...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb06.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb07.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/jb08.jpg


....

cohibasmoker
11-25-2008, 09:04 AM
So Matt, its been a few days since you posted the below statement and I am still awaiting your response to my initial question which was and still is: just how many Jets jerseys have you PERSOANNLY inspected from the era you stated to substantiate the below statement. Mark Hayne gave a wonderful response and substantiated his claims and Troy stated that he personally handled over 300 jerseys but I am still wondering what your sampling was to make the below claim?

You wrote:

With that being said, I was a bit taken aback when you agreed with the authenticator that 90 plus percent of legitimate vintage game worn AFL or NFL jerseys will demonstrate no team instituted repairs. This is absolutely positively not the case with New York Jets jerseys from the AFL or early merger era. Even most common Jets player jerseys from that particular era more often than not (that could be anywhere from 51% to 49% and up) will exhibit use to include team repairs (of course obviously a players position, type of playing style, and amount of playing time will have a dynamic impact on percentages).

Jim

kingjammy24
11-25-2008, 07:48 PM
1) light use: i think "light use" is entirely appropriate (ie: ideal) on some jerseys and wholly inappropriate on others. i passed on bidding on a certain jersey in a recent AMI auction because the wear was too heavy. that is, it seemed disproportionate to the time the player had spent on the team that season. in considering mark's rollie fingers shirt and this brown shirt, one would think that if light wear were appropriate for one jersey and not the other it'd be on the fingers and not on the brown. apparently, mears felt differently. mark hayne brought up the fact that apparently older football shirts were able to take more a beating. i'd think the brown shirt would still show something though? for a shirt of this magnitude, now offered from 2 premier auction houses, both descriptions have only mentioned the crotch piece wear.

2) from the REA description: "The offered jersey is not only the first Jim Brown game jersey we have ever seen.. but is also the only example ever seen by MEARS or documented in the MEARS population report...This is the only documented Jim Brown jersey known to date"

the first jim brown shirt MEARS has ever seen and noone from MEARS spoke to the Football HOF, who have 3 in their possession? this strikes me as really, really odd. a $70k shirt and a phone call can't be made to an institution that has 3 of what you have none of? wierd, wacky stuff as johnny c. would say.

3) promo items and salesman's samples have long posed concerns for collectors of all niches. i'm not sure how king o'shea worked back in the day but i'm curious if the promo item route was explored and if so, what sorts of conclusions were reached. it seems saleman's samples would be most common around the time that a given team is either undergoing a redesign or entertaining the notion of changing from it's current supplier. in 1996, the jays gave russell a try for their home jerseys from their main supplier wilson who'd they'd been using since 1977. i imagine around '96, russell made a few samples that led to wooing the jays away from wilson.
and of course, teams have been known to make up promo shirts for things like photo shoots and charity donations. not sure how common that was with the browns in the 60s.

rudy.

gridman80
11-25-2008, 11:20 PM
Two cents here...and this is all this comment is probably really worth....but I have a high level of confidence that almost all of the items in the auction belong to one private collector who is dumping his [substantial] stash.

So the reason we saw many of these items show up in different auctions and now here is because that is how this person built his collection - buying from the various auction houses.

No comment/clue on the specifics of any of the items but I have to say that some of them are pretty fun to look at!

Thanks,

Tom

Looks to me as though some of this stuff may have come from Duke Hott's collection. He sold just about all of it to mastro a couple years back.

G1X
11-26-2008, 02:01 AM
Now to the issue that most of us durene collectors don't like to think about. Not only were jerseys often recycled back in those days (they still are today, by the way), many were later reused in practice. Did the repairs come from game action or did they come from practice/camp use? So the next time you get all excited about those 17 repairs on your favorite durene jersey, you might want to think about how many resulted from a couple of years of practice and summer camp! :)

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

nyjetsfan14
11-26-2008, 01:36 PM
Now to the issue that most of us durene collectors don't like to think about. Not only were jerseys often recycled back in those days (they still are today, by the way), many were later reused in practice. Did the repairs come from game action or did they come from practice/camp use? So the next time you get all excited about those 17 repairs on your favorite durene jersey, you might want to think about how many resulted from a couple of years of practice and summer camp! :)

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

Always looking for Atlanta Falcons and WFL uniforms

Having had the distinct pleasure, privilege, and honor of communicating with/interviewing several of the old NY Titans and early AFL Jets players regarding many topics to include uniforms (RIP Roger Ellis and Thurlow Cooper - two great AFL players who were so incredibly gracious). As Mark points out, much of the early Titans gear was continuously recylced (literally hundreds of players went through the Titans franchise), used for practices, used for camp, THEN sent on to local high schools and/or leagues for use. One must remember many/most/all of the AFL teams early on were financially challenged (especially the NY Titans) and thus were desparately trying to save funds in every way imagineable, including with equipment. At the onset the NY Titans did not even employ a team Dr. According to the players I spoke to these uni's would typically be beat to all heck.

beantown
12-06-2008, 11:51 AM
http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=88715&CurrentRow=1&Category=Game%20Used%20Football%20Uniforms%20and%2 0Equipment

Cold weather jersey? I have never heard of the Steelers wearing anything in this era other than nylon durene, which this is certaintly not...can anyone add to this?

both-teams-played-hard
12-06-2008, 12:17 PM
http://live.mastroauctions.com/index.cfm?action=DisplayContent&ContentName=Lot%20Information&LotIndex=88715&CurrentRow=1&Category=Game%20Used%20Football%20Uniforms%20and%2 0Equipment

Cold weather jersey? I have never heard of the Steelers wearing anything in this era other than nylon durene, which this is certaintly not...can anyone add to this?

Durene is mercerized cotton (treated and pre-washed). Sand Knit often used a nylon and durene cotton blend for their 70s football jerseys. I can't see a close-up to get a good idea of the material used.

genius
12-06-2008, 01:38 PM
The front numbers on the Greene jersey look skinnier than they should. They actually resemble the 1993 throwback version made by Champion.