GFC errs on another MeiGray Rangers jersey

[kingjammy24]

The jersey:

http://www.greyflannel.com/sales_main_Detail.php?updateID=1860

"2003 Rafael Palmeiro Texas Rangers Game-used Alternate Jersey"

In light of the recent incident where GFC issued an LOA stating "game used" on an Alex Rodriguez jersey that showed up on Ebay ( http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=1877 )that was proven by MeiGray/Barry Meisel to actually be game-issued, I was curious about this 2003 Palmeiro on GFC's site. I emailed MeiGray/Barry to ask him to check the inventory number on the GFC "game used" Palmeiro. Surprise, surprise, it too was originally sold as game issued.

So somewhere in between MeiGray selling the Palmeiro as "game issued" and Grey Flannel acquiring it and advertising it as "game used", this jersey apparently was used in a game by Palmeiro.

As well, it appears the same buyer bought both the Ebay jersey and the Palmeiro that GFC is now selling. I've contacted GFC about the issue(s).
I'm wondering how many game-issued Rangers jerseys GFC has sold as game-used?

Rudy.

[PK]

Rudy, nice catch!!!

Barry cannot be too pleased with the folks at GFC

[suave1477]

Boy you guys dont use your noggins!!!!!

Arod and Palmeiro both bought back there jerseys from Meigray bcuz they ran out of jerseys in a game and then after they were done sold them to GreyFlannel.

lol lol lol:D

[hblakewolf]

Rudy-
This is simply appalling!

How can a jersey that was originally sold as non-game worn now appear on Grey Flannels own web site, show wear and have a Grey Flannel letter indicating it is a gamer? The MeiGray identification tag allows anyone to check on the history of these jerseys. For the life of me I don't understand how, in less than a week, two unworn Rangers jerseys suddenly show up with Grey Flannel LOA's, show wear and have new LOA's, especially when ANYONE can call MeiGray and research the history!

Hats off the Barry Meisel for such a great system, and allowing collectors to track both game worn and non-game worn jerseys.

Rudy, please post any additional information you obtain from either Barry Meisel or Grey Flannel on this.



Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[R. C. Walker]

The jersey:

I'm wondering how many game-issued Rangers jerseys GFC has sold as game-used?

Rudy.

Not only GFC, but others as well. Next in line are the Steiner Yankees "Game Issued".

Buyer Beware!

[trsent]

Do you folks really think Grey Flannel has made these items game used or do you think they were set up somewhere along the line?

Think before you answer...

[BULBUS]

trsent, i dont think anyone is implying that grey flannel is making these game issued jerseys into game used. they just arent doing their homework when writing letters. a simple phone call to barry would let them know exactly what they have, a game ISSUED jersey. and if they do know what they have, shame on them.

regarding the steiner game issued jerseys, i heard that they are putting invisible synthetic dna (like psa does) on the jerseys to mark game used and game issued. anyone, is this true?

[psmachetti]

What more proof does anybody need to realize these clowns are just a bunch of freakin' crooks! That's what most of these auction houses basically are. They're no better than some scumbag collector trying to sell fake game worns . They ought to be charged w/ fraud. This crap just pisses me off to no end.:mad:
Paul

[suave1477]

b

[suave1477]

bulbus i heard that also i dont know for sure but i can definitely check. But there items do have tamper proof holograms on the jersey and on there LOA so that would also help identify the history of the jersey as the document everything about the jersey or other game used item.

[suave1477]

psmashetti thats is tottaly wrong of you, they are far from crooks. They are just not doing their hoemwork on where the items actually came from but that doesnt make them a crook.

[BULBUS]

suave, did you ever try to take one of those yankees steiner holograms off a jersey? they sometimes come off easy and you can stick it on something else. they dont stick to fabrics so great. i recently bought a jersey from them and the hologram was on the yankees ny. i didnt like it there so i saw that it was coming off easy and i moved it to the tag on the front. it looks much better now.

[suave1477]

bulbus actually no i never tried actually pulling one off, but thanks for the heads up. if you dont mind me asking which yankees jersey did you pick up

[otismalibu]

To many collectors, the LOA, COA, etc. is what "makes" a jersey game worn or an autograph authentic. Not saying it's the brightest approach, but many people put all their faith in the letter that accompanies the piece.

Greg

[BarryMeisel]

Joel,

Since you do not know who originally purchased these jerseys from MeiGray, may I respectfully suggest you refrain from making comments that I can quite confidently state you would regret if you had that information.

MeiGray does have the records of who originally purchased these jerseys. While we will not share that information publicly, I can share with you, Joel, the belief that your post would read differently if you were privy to that information.

Rest assured, that the original purchaser of these jerseys will not be offered any game-issued jerseys again by MeiGray.

Respectfully,

Barry

[seven4five20]

The fact is that it could have been anyone that originally misrepresented the jersey. It could have been the first owner, or the sixth owner. These days jerseys get passed around like Madonna did earlier in her career.

It was a rather sloppy job by one or more people, but you just don't know who "manufactured" the game use, so I think it is unfair to point fingers.

[kingjammy24]

If a private seller sold these to GFC, then the seller's representation is completely irrelevant. Who cares if they said the jerseys were game-used? GFC is responsible for conducting their own independent examination of the jersey and rendering their own opinion. To anyone with an ounce of brains, this analysis would naturally include a call to MeiGray. If, on the other hand, GFC was the original purchaser of these jerseys...

This is twice now that GFC has done this. Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, ..anyone wanna dig up some more GFC-authenticated 2003-2005 Rangers jerseys and see if we can make it a third time?

Joel, a "set up"? On a simple level, it's impossible seeing as how nobody but GFC wrote those GFC LOAs. At the end of the day, the onus is on GFC for their verdict. On a more sinister level, I believe I understand what you're implying and it seems like nonsense. Here:

A 2002 Dan Miceli "game-worn" jersey auctioned off by AMI, LOA'd by Lampson.
http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=17442

Again, a call into MeiGray shows this jersey was sold as "game issued". Another "set up"? At some point, you've got to stop waving that GFC flag.

By the way, did the boys at MEARS ever reply to your email and address why they're unable to discern a retail jersey from a gamer?

Rudy.

[kingjammy24]

Incidentally, that GFC 2003 Palmeiro was previously sold at a June 2005 Lelands auction:

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=41&auctionid=506

Rudy.

[kingjammy24]

And before being sold in the June 2005 Lelands auction, it was sold in the
December 2004 Lelands auction?:

http://www.lelands.com/bid.aspx?lot=1131&auctionid=412

Rudy.

[R. C. Walker]

If you actually believed this headache was not on the horizon when the term “Game Issued” was recently introduced (relatively speaking). Wait until all the Steiner Yankees game issued are washed a couple times.

What a mess it will be!

[hblakewolf]

When I first read this post, I was tempted to buy the jersey. I have seen many Palmiero jerseys with the MeiGray LOA in the past, but the fact that this particular one had the all important Grey Flannel LOA really cinched the deal for me! I just went to their web site, however, and it appears the item is "no longer in the data base" or available.

If anyone should locate another star alternate blue Rangers jersey, especially Hank Blalock, with a Grey Flannel LOA and void of the original MeiGray paperwork, please let me know. At this rate, should expect to hear from one of you by this Friday?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[trsent]

Since you do not know who originally purchased these jerseys from MeiGray, may I respectfully suggest you refrain from making comments that I can quite confidently state you would regret if you had that information.

MeiGray does have the records of who originally purchased these jerseys. While we will not share that information publicly, I can share with you, Joel, the belief that your post would read differently if you were privy to that information.

Rest assured, that the original purchaser of these jerseys will not be offered any game-issued jerseys again by MeiGray.

Barry, nice job. You leave us all wondering if it was bought right from Grey Flannel or not, but you make us all very curious with your post. I am sorry, I was making the point that since your company only knows who bought the items, Grey Flannel could have been set up and none of us would know.

Now, if I owned a company such as yours I would have never made a post in a public discussion group leaving the door open to an answer that most of us would hate to hear (Oh wait, Rudy wants all 3rd party authenticators to burn) since we all wish to believe the best for our authenticators.

So where do you wish to leave us with this discussion? Do you want to indirectly point at Grey Flannel with your post and make me look like an idiot? What did I do or say that got under your skin. I just can't believe the people on here wish to attack Grey Flannel without all the knowledge of this item. No one but your company knows who bought these jerseys, so why do you tell me to refrain from making comments?

I take the side that all is good until proven otherwise because people on here wish to incriminate without the facts. If you know the facts, don't beat around the bush. Either publish the information or don't leave us hanging that I won't like your answers. You don't have to comment, but don't vaguely post about it pointing me out because I took the honest side.

[both-teams-played-hard]

Barry, nice job. You leave us all wondering if it was bought right from Grey Flannel or not, but you make us all very curious with your post.


Joel, Nice job
You speak regularly why the "insiders" don't post on this forum, and then you try to call out the insider of all insiders.

[trsent]

Joel, Nice job
You speak regularly why the "insiders" don't post on this forum, and then you try to call out the insider of all insiders.

Say what you want, but Barry posted that we wouldn't like the answer to the question at hand leaving us in the dark, which is fine. I know my business policy is not to name names when it is asked who bought an item from my company. This is a general business policy.

My original issue was that Grey Flannel was being pinned with doctoring jerseys without any proof that they did it themselves. Barry came back and told me not to discuss as I won't like the answers.

That looks like finger pointing to me and it didn't seem right. I have no problems with Barry or his company, they seem to do a fine job at what they do. This whole issue has me confused, and at a loss because it appears Barry said we will not like to know the truth, which raises hidden suspicions which just isn't right.

[Mike Grueber]

Rather than asking Barry if Grey Flannel was the original purchaser of these jerseys, wouldn't it be more appropriate to ask Grey Flannel to acknowledge whether it was the oriiginal purchaser of these jerseys from the Meigray Group?

Since Grey Flannel was the party found to be selling game-issued jerseys as game-worn, it seems like the onus should be on it to explain how that happened.


Mike Grueber

[trsent]

You are right, and as a businessman I would expect that MeiGray would not publish who bought items from them unless it became a legal issue. The issue here is I am pretty sure that Grey Flannel does not respond to issues on this forum due to a feeling that they do not get a fair shake on this board.

Maybe someone would contact them for a statement if they even have been informed of the situation already.

[hblakewolf]

Joel-
Yesterday, I received an email from Richie Russek at Grey Flannel about the first Rangers jersey in question, the Arod. The folks at Grey Flannel are well aware of the contents and postings on the Forum. Likewise, when a jersey that is offered on their website is sold, it is marked as sold or unavailable, however, is still shown with the other jerseys that are for sale. In the case of this Palmiero jersey, it is no longer even on their site! It has been removed. Joel, based on this information, it seems only appropriate for someone at Grey Flannel to respond to this post, and hopefully, also shed light on the other Arod Rangers jersey in question.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[BarryMeisel]

Joel,

You did not get under my skin. I do not know you personally. In fact, I appreciate and respect your enthusiasm for the hobby. I also agree with your philosophy that people are innocent until proven guilty, and I was not attempt to finger-point.

I was attempting to warn those who offer opinions without all the facts. If you took that personally rather than literally, I apologize, because I did not mean it that way.

For legal and ethical reasons, I cannot publish the information of the original owner without permission. But I can warn those who might be making mistakes based on information MeiGray does have not to make those mistakes.

My only interest here is registering and authenticating game-worn jerseys, and doing my part as a dealer to help the hobby stay as clean as possible. MeiGray has invested heavily in a registration system that helps collectors.

All you have to do is use it, as Rudy did in this case.

I have seen many questions/inaccuracies/problems with game-worn baseball jerseys, as we all have. Since MeiGray has a deal with the Texas Rangers, we can offer a level of authenticity that is lacking with so many teams' jerseys.

You say I have raised suspicions and not offered the truth?

The truth is:

1) A jersey sold by MeiGray as game-issued to a well-informed original owner was sold as game-worn by a major authenticator that is well aware of MeiGray's registration system.

2) The jersey still had the inventory serial number in it, which would have made it incredibly easy for any subsequent owner to check on. MeiGray offers a toll-free number for this service.

3) Even if the jersey changed hands a number of times, and one or more owners did not know of MeiGray's registration system, the authenticator who put his name to the jersey is familiar with MeiGray's system, and of MeiGray's deal with the Texas Rangers. Of that we are certain.

Isn't that the real issue here: Why aren't the authenticators checking with the original source of the Texas Rangers jerseys? Why are they calling something game-worn without referring to our database?

Respectfully,

Barry

[hblakewolf]

Barry-
As always, a great job of cutting through the fluff and presenting just the facts.

Your statement, "Isn't that the real issue here: Why aren't the authenticators checking with the original source of the Texas Rangers jerseys? Why are they calling something game-worn without referring to our database?" is really the issue at hand.

As I noted in my earlier post, the folks at Grey Flannel are aware of this site, and were aware of the previous thread about this same problem associated with the Arod that they also wrote a LOA.

The folks at Grey Flannel are the only individuals who can provide factual insight to this entire issue, and hopefully, will respond with the desired information.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[trsent]

Ok, good, issues resolved. I was making the point that I doubt Grey Flannel was responsible for anything but authenticating a jersey that someone else must have altered before it came to them.

Howard, I have said it before, many auction houses and authenticators will not respond to any allegations on this forum because they are bashed after responding time and time again without their views being accepted. I was proud of the forum when Vintage responded a few months ago and their answers were accepted without making the situation worse.

I am through with this topic, I can only assume a dealer bought this jersey, fixed it up and sold it to Grey Flannel as game used, which it was not. Why they didn't check the numbers out with the system is not my concern, but I assume it looked good so they assumed it came from MeiGray as good and wrote their letter.

When I dealt in Upper Deck Authenticated memorabilia exclusively I called UDA to verify about 2% of the holograms of the items I bought. It just never crossed my mind, as I assume this was one big misunderstanding.

Then again, if the item was removed they must have been notified of the error and are correcting it.

[BULBUS]

The only way to correct it is to burn the jersey so it can do no more harm!

[flaco1801]

so grey flannel had this jersey. they had it authenticated by a third party? they wrote a letter, and all they had to do was call an 800 number to verify its status? seems like a lot of work. i guess this is gonna be swept under the rug as a mistake. this is really bothersome to me. does anybody believe that grey flannel should have known better? isnt this a premier auction house? i am wondering now if any laws have been broken? i really dont expect any response from grey flannel here, do you?

[Mike Grueber]

When it comes to authenticating game-worn items, I am sure that experienced authenticators such as Grey Flannel know better than to simply accept someone else's assertion that a particular item is game-used. This holds true even in cases where an item was supplied by the very person who supposedly wore the item.

While Grey Flannel may believe that it's protecting its reputation and integrity by failing to explain why it did not call Meigray as part of its authentication process, I believe that Grey Flannel's silence is having exacty the opposite effect.

We are all human and make mistakes. We should all learn from our mistakes and move on. I, personally, have absolutely no interest in dealing with those who refuse to ackowledge and accept responsibility for their errors.


Mike Grueber

[ChrisCavalier]

I have said it before, many auction houses and authenticators will not respond to any allegations on this forum because they are bashed after responding time and time again without their views being accepted.
Hello Joel-

I have seen you post this comment a few times and felt the need to respectfully disagree. There are clearly examples of authenticators (e.g., Barry Meisel from MeiGray) and auction houses (e.g., Mike Heffner from Lelands and Steve Jensen from Vintage Authentics)) who have taken the time to address the forum and not been "bashed" as you say. The forum has made great strides in making sure people post responsibly and will continue to make progress in that area. As such, I think the logic that people will get "bashed" is longer an acceptable reason not to address important questions on this forum that can benefit the hobby.


I am through with this topic, I can only assume a dealer bought this jersey, fixed it up and sold it to Grey Flannel as game used, which it was not. Why they didn't check the numbers out with the system is not my concern, but I assume it looked good so they assumed it came from MeiGray as good and wrote their letter..
I also find this comment intriguing. I agree that what you proposed is the most likely scenario of what happened. However, why do you not think it is important to make sure the collecting community understands exactly what transpired (rather than leave it to individual speculation) as well as what will be done in the future to make sure it does not happen again? Please know that I am not challenging you for argument sake but I think fully understanding the situation will clearly benefit collectors and help them make more informed decisions in the future.

The fact of the matter is, this forum has done its job in bringing to light something that deserves an explanation for the benefit of the community. In my opinion, being "through with this topic" at this point would only leave individuals to speculate on what actually transpired. While I am sure there is a rational explanation, I think the collecting community deserves to know what it is. In fact, given my generally positive opinions of Grey Flannel, I believe the disclosure of what happened (rather than leaving it to subjective speculation) will only benefit Grey Flannel in the long run.

Just thought I would add my humble opinion.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

[suave1477]

Well Hey!!!!

Heres A Thought Instead Of Everyone Going Back And Forth With Right And Wrong Here Has Anyone Herre Stepped Up To The Plate To Contact Greyflannel And Let Them Know Of The Situation?

I Mean Seriously Everyone Here Is Arguing About Why It All Happend And I Havent Seen One Person Say That They Have Contacted Grey Flannel!!!!

[Mike Grueber]

Well Hey!!!!

Heres A Thought Instead Of Everyone Going Back And Forth With Right And Wrong Here Has Anyone Herre Stepped Up To The Plate To Contact Greyflannel And Let Them Know Of The Situation?

I Mean Seriously Everyone Here Is Arguing About Why It All Happend And I Havent Seen One Person Say That They Have Contacted Grey Flannel!!!!

In the very first post in this thread, Rudy indicated that he had contacted Grey Flannel about this matter.


Mike Grueber

[hblakewolf]

I personally sent Richie at Grey Flannel an email about the first Rangers jersey in question, the non-game worn ARod that they also wote a LOA for (indicating it was game worn).

The reply from Richie pointed out that they are the authenticators for the Basketball Hall of Fame, Yogi Berra Museum and also selected by the Yankees (no idea for what) and concluded with "Get a Life".:confused:

Based on the previous response, I don't think I'll waste my time on contacting them on the Palmiero jersey.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[suave1477]

Are you serious they actually told you to get a life?

If that is true!!

With hearing what you just said and with my experiences of American Memorabilia what the heck is this world coming too, Does business ethic and Professional courtesy not exist in Game Used collecting world?

You be damned to hear someone from Microsoft, Sony, Cablevision, Turner Broadcasting, Ford, Sara Lee and other Fortune 500 companies hang up a phone on you or to tell you get a life.

How do these authenticating companies plan to stay in business if they keep pissing off there own customers

[hblakewolf]

Are you serious they actually told you to get a life?

If that is true!!

With hearing what you just said and with my experiences of American Memorabilia what the heck is this world coming too, Does business ethic and Professional courtesy not exist in Game Used collecting world?

You be damned to hear someone from Microsoft, Sony, Cablevision, Turner Broadcasting, Ford, Sara Lee and other Fortune 500 companies hang up a phone on you or to tell you get a life.

How do these authenticating companies plan to stay in business if they keep pissing off there own customers

Correct. The email ended with "Get a Life".

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[ChrisCavalier]

Well Hey!!!!

Heres A Thought Instead Of Everyone Going Back And Forth With Right And Wrong Here Has Anyone Herre Stepped Up To The Plate To Contact Greyflannel And Let Them Know Of The Situation?

I Mean Seriously Everyone Here Is Arguing About Why It All Happend And I Havent Seen One Person Say That They Have Contacted Grey Flannel!!!!
Hello suave-

I agree with your recommendation. In fact, I have a call into Grey Flannel (I had to leave a message) and will let you know if I hear anything.

Sincerely,
Chris

[kingjammy24]

I contacted GFC yesterday morning, prior to starting this thread. To date GFC has still not contacted me.

"Grey Flannel does not respond to issues on this forum due to a feeling that they do not get a fair shake on this board."

It doesn't take a genius to see they're getting an even worse shake by not posting. It's impossible to give someone a fair shake when they won't even give you the opportunity. They've never posted, yet they naturally presume the worst for themselves.
If Steve Jensen can do it, there's no reason Vari or anyone else can't as well. Jensen did it, issues were addressed, items were corrected, he got a fair shake, and at the end of the day, I came away with a better impression of Jensen and Vintage Authentics. Every time a GFC issue comes up, they sit there as quiet as mice and it doesn't help anyone. Especially them.

"Grey Flannel was being pinned with doctoring jerseys without any proof that they did it themselves"

Grey Flannel was never pinned with anything of the sort. They were pinned with acquiring game-issued jerseys and selling them as game-used. Noone ever mentioned anything about any sort of doctoring.

"Why they didn't check the numbers out with the system is not my concern"

That's the entire issue! As Barry put it: "..the real issue here: Why aren't the authenticators checking with the original source of the Texas Rangers jerseys? Why are they calling something game-worn without referring to our database?".

"it looked good so they assumed it came from MeiGray as good and wrote their letter."

That's "the standard of the industry"? God help the Basketball Hall of Fame if that's how GFC authenticates. Keith Vari acquired some 2003 Rangers jerseys and noticed they were missing their typical MeiGray paperwork. He chose to ignore that red flag, didn't bother to spend 4 minutes to contact MeiGray, and assumed the jerseys were fine. If that's what happened, then at best it's the epitome of sloppiness.

Like I said earlier, whatever the seller may have told GFC about the jerseys is completely irrelevant. Any possible manufactured use is irrelevant. At the end of the day, it was up to GFC to contact MeiGray. At least twice, they failed to do this.

Of course, I suppose the other real issue is whether GFC was simply negligent by genuinely forgetting to call MeiGray or whether the entire thing was intentional. If it's eventually revealed that these jerseys were acquired by GFC with their original MeiGray paperwork intact, then I guess that answers that issue.

Rudy.

[33bird]

I don't get you man. Everytime an auction house screws up, Trsent comes to the rescue. Grey Flannel charges huge dollars for jerseys and makes huge dollars in all their auctions. We're expected to do our homework, but they aren't? Even though game used jerseys ARE THEIR BUSINESS??
I can see you backing the auction houses up sometimes (they can't always be so stupid, right?) but you back them up everytime someone on here makes a legit complaint. GF's head is in the sand if they don't know about the Rangers exclusive deal with Barry. And that's unacceptable. GF plays stupid so that they can claim ignorance and still make their 20% commission. They don't care if it's real or not. They want their cut-that's all. They've lost in People's court. They sell (and have sold) many bogus jerseys, etc. Why back them up? Let us know why you always back them up? Sometimes I think people on here have done a lot of business with the GF's and the AMI's, etc., and then when they here the crap they are selling to the public, they get scared and think, "Maybe some of the stuff I've bought from them is bogus too. I better go and defend them, because I don't want my stuff to be fake too." Am I right? If not, what then? I can't figure you out. It's so simple. But I guess you're the same guy who thinks barry bonds never juiced too. See ya.

[silverschmidts]

Are you serious they actually told you to get a life?

If that is true!!

With hearing what you just said and with my experiences of American Memorabilia what the heck is this world coming too, Does business ethic and Professional courtesy not exist in Game Used collecting world?

You be damned to hear someone from Microsoft, Sony, Cablevision, Turner Broadcasting, Ford, Sara Lee and other Fortune 500 companies hang up a phone on you or to tell you get a life.

How do these authenticating companies plan to stay in business if they keep pissing off there own customers

As incredible as that may sound, I was treated in a similar fashion yesterday by Richard Bond at Lelands in regards to my inquiry about a Ruth/Gehrig ball that I bought from them in their December auction. As you can imagine, I paid them several thousand dollars for this item. The ball was advertised as coming with a letter of provenance from the family that originally obtained the ball. The letter was never provided and I have been trying for three months now to get it. Yesterday, I was insulted by Bond for insisting that I should be provided with the letter in an expeditious manner. IN addition to several other things, he said that he was busy putting together their next auction (implying that he didn't have time to get this straightened out). He has since taken some action to get the matter corrected, though not without my having to suffer several insults and waiting for three months. I'm relaying this episode only to point out that my experience has been that nearly all of the major auction houses provide simply terrible customer service, even when you've made major purchases from them. I have suffered similar experiences with American Memorabilia and Grey Flannel. I won't purchase from any of them any more because their service is just too spotty. Simply put, they are not reliable. Just my two cents. --Steve

[pietraynor]

I haven't dealt w/ Leland's in years ref. to an item I submitted for auction w/them through an employee who is still w/them. On a side note, I saw this same emp's name on several St. Louis Cardinals items at the "Garage Sale" they held a few mos. back. Leland's was there to offer "Appraisals" at the show. And no, he didn't stand in line like the rest of us.

[Mike Heffner]

I would like to respond to Steve's comments about myself (Richard Bond) and the company that I work for.

Steve purchased an authentic Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig baseball in our December Auction. The Letter of Provenance from the family of the original owner wasn't sent to him right away (our error). Mr. Silverman emailed Leland's general mailbox in the middle of February wanting to return the ball because he didn't receive the letter. I emailed Steve letting him know the letter would be sent. I personally handed the letter to our Shipping Manager that day. The letter got lost in the mail; not his fault, nor ours. He emailed again, and I told him I would contact the consignor for a replacement letter (which I did). Mr. Silverman phoned me yesterday (3/21) and basically called me a liar when I told him I personally handed the Letter of Provenance to our Shipping Manager, and my conversation with the consignor. I then told Steve I would contact the consignor and give her Mr. Silverman's phone number and email address. The consignor had NO PROBLEM speaking with him and supplying another LOA. My lasts words to Steve were "If you have any other questions or problems, give me a call". He did not call. We are very conscious of customer service here and appreciate any constructive comments for improvement.

Sincerely, Richard Bond Director of Acquistions Lelands.com

PS--I NEVER insulted Mr. Silverman (even though he was pretty unruly on the phone). Rich

[hblakewolf]

Forum readers-
Although this recent post is not related to the Grey Flannel LOA issue, it proves that the various auction houses do indeed read The Forum! This is not the first time Lelands has been called on an issue, however, I do give them credit for at least responding to previous and current posts and issues discussed here.

I believe we have asked the same from the folks at Grey Flannel on the Palmiero and Arod issue, however, I'm not aware of any response. Chris Cavilier indicated he had contacted them. Chris, any update?

Richard, thanks for providing your information on the subject. All my best to Josh and Mike.:D

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[ChrisCavalier]

I believe we have asked the same from the folks at Grey Flannel on the Palmiero and Arod issue, however, I'm not aware of any response. Chris Cavilier indicated he had contacted them. Chris, any update?
Hello Howard-

I have not heard back from Grey Flannel yet. I will update the forum as soon as I hear anything.

Sincerely,
Chris

[CollectGU]

In defense of Richard Bond, I purchased a number of items from the Decmber auction and had an issue with one of the items. After calling Rich and explaining to Rich my reservations about the item, he took the item back no questions asked and provided a full refund. He was never rude or impolite...

[silverschmidts]

Well, since Mr. Bond replied to my post, I can't resist the temptation to set the record straight. While I'm sure he doesn't want to admit this to everyone on this forum, in fact he was quite rude and insulting to me yesterday. When I asked him why he hadn't sent the "lost in the mail" LOA by overnight delivery or some other traceable service, he said, "well, I would have if I had realized that you were going to be such an . . . ." Wow. That's a fine way to treat a customer, especially a customer who has paid you a lot of money and after three months you still haven't managed to deliver the goods. As for truthfulness, I won't bore the forum readers with all the gory details; however, suffice it to say I was told different things by different Lelands employees over the last three months that were inconsistent. In the end, Mr. Bond's answer was, "it must have been lost in the mail." You can decide for yourself if that's a satisfying (or truthful) answer. I guess the most amazing thing about this episode is that even though Lelands admits it dropped the ball on this (no pun intended), rather than apologize to me or display any urgency in trying to make things right, they basically blamed the victim. That's a shameless tactic, usually employed by a party who has something to hide or who is guilty of doing the thing for which they're accused. Again, my point is that nearly every auction house, even the big ones, are guilty of very poor customer service, so I wasn't surprised at all when GF told one of our forum members "to get a life." They're gracious enough when they're trying to lure in your business, but after the sale, their customer service is frequently pretty terrible. Some of this may be due to what Mr. Bond stated to me yesteday; i.e., they are so busy trying to make the next sale that they don't really have time to follow through making good on the sales that have already been banked. Of course, even worse than this customer service issue is the authentication problem that was the original source of this thread. When you put the two together (items of dubious authentication and poor customer service) the picture that begins to crystalize is simply this: many of these establishments, despite the fancy catalogs and flowery rhetoric, are not very high quality enterprises and the buyer must truly beware when he/she decides to do business with them. I'm not saying that every auction house is like this, but I would say most of the ones dealing in sports memorabilia are. I've had some good experiences with sports auction houses to offset the bad experiences, but the bottom-line is the quality of their services is inconsistent. And that's why there is so much bashing of the "insiders" on this forum. If these insiders consistently had their act together, they would receive more praise and respect. Unfortunately, they frequently sacrifice high quality standards for making a quick buck, and that sometimes get them in trouble. And when happens, they deserve to be criticized. Thank goodness, though, there is a forum like this that can at least shine a little light on some of poor practices that occur in the hobby. --Steve

[Mike Heffner]

Mr. Silverman, I have to laugh a little reading your elaborate and dramatic portrayal of yesterday's conversation. Anyone that knows me well (you don't) knows I am a fair and honest person within this fine hobby. I prefer to let other serious clients come to their own conclusions about me. I am not worried one bit. I honestly wish you much luck with your collection in the future, and if I can help you with a nice piece you wish to bid on in a Leland's Auction, again, please do not hesitate to call me. I am there from 9-6 just about every day. Have a fantastic evening Steve...Richard

[norristrophy]

Mike or Richard,

Just curious when a preview and/or bidding will commence on the lelands site for the April auction.

Thanks.

[Mike Heffner]

The auction went up on our site today and is open for bidding. If anyone has any questions regarding any items in the auction, please feel free to call me our Richard Bond at the office (516-409-9700). Thanks and good luck.

Mike

[trsent]

Thats not surprising.

If you met him you would see his shadiness.

Don't judge a book by its cover...

(It's Saturday night, anyone get the Rocky Horror Picture Show reference?)

[ChrisCavalier]

Hello Howard-

I have not heard back from Grey Flannel yet. I will update the forum as soon as I hear anything.
Hello Everyone-

I wanted to let everyone know that Keith Vari was kind enough to return my call and provide his perspective on the jersey. According to Keith, Grey Flannel had two jerseys (a Pudge Rodriguez and the Palmeiro) for which Keith called MeiGray to check against their database. According to Keith, he called on a Thursday and was told by the gentleman who answered the phone that Stu, the person who could check on the jerseys, was out at that moment and asked that Keith call back the following day (Friday) to do the verification. Subsequently, Keith said he was out of the office that Friday and the person at Grey Flannel in charge of putting items on their site accidentally posted it before the verification was made against the MeiGray database. Further, Keith noted that once the issue was identified the jersey was pulled off the website.

Please feel free to let me know if that answers the questions on the forum regarding Grey Flannel. Personally, I think it appears to be an honest mistake by Grey Flannel and I am grateful to Keith Vari for returning my call and providing his perspective.

Once again, please feel free to let me know if that adequately answers the question regarding Grey Flannel raised here previously.

Sincerely,
Christopher Cavalier

[both-teams-played-hard]

... he called on a Thursday and was told by the gentleman who answered the phone that Stu, the person who could check on the jerseys, was out at that moment and asked that Keith call back the following day (Friday) to do the verification. Subsequently, Keith said he was out of the office that Friday and the person at Grey Flannel in charge of putting items on their site accidentally posted it before the verification was made against the MeiGray database.


No further questions. The prosecution rests. The members of this forum should be ashamed of themselves for pre-judging Grey Flannel. Honest mistake.

"c'mon...you know Keith Hernandez? Get outta here! You expect me to believe that you know Keith Hernandez?...c'mon"

[BULBUS]

Chris,
Did he explain the letter for the AROD jersey on Ebay? Did Meigray not return his call then? If it was just one jersey, I would accept it as an honest mistake, just not twice.

[kingjammy24]

While everyone's free to form their own impressions and opinions, my personal feeling is that the explanation is rubbish.

The jersey was "accidentally" put up? If I had gone ahead on the Website and purchased it, would they accidentally have accepted my money?

Secondly, GFC owned these 2 jerseys and did not check them prior to purchasing them? Are these jerseys consignments? If not, then I have a very tough time believing that GFC would blindly purchase 2 jerseys like these with the intent to check them out after purchasing them. You don't buy a jersey and then start making calls. GFC knows exactly what it has in it's inventory.

Thirdly, why wait for Stu specifically? Personally, I just email Barry directly and he always gladly checks out any numbers I ask. On this particular jersey, Barry emailed me back literally within 5 min.

Fourthly, since when is GFC in the business of selling game-issued jerseys?All I've ever seen in their inventory are "game worn" jerseys. Of course, I guess they didn't know the jersey was game-issued when they bought it. They were going to check it out after purchasing it, right?

Fifthly, while saying it was accidental is one thing for the Palmeiro, did they have an answer for the Rodriguez, Chris? They sold an ARod with a GFC letter stating "game used" when it was in fact, game-issued. Did they accidentally put that one up for auction and sell it?

Sixthly, when a person alerts you to an error you've made and thereby saves you a huge hassle, do you respond by telling them to "get a life"?

Like I said, everyone's free to form their own opinions and these are mine.

Rudy.

[trsent]

Rudy, you do not know the relationship with Howard Wolf and Ritchie Russick, and neither do I, but I do believe there is some bad blood there.

Now, as usual, you have posted comments after an auction house responded to a situation and instead of making them more comfortable so maybe they'll respond to our next inquiry, they now feel no matter what they do or say someone will come back on here and bash them some more.

I don't care if their excuse is black or white, at least they addressed it and then you come back and call the kettle black.

[blackbeard]

Subsequently, Keith said he was out of the office that Friday and the person at Grey Flannel in charge of putting items on their site accidentally posted it before the verification was made against the MeiGray database.

Did the regular guy quit?

I have noticed a decrease in quality of photos on there.

[ChrisCavalier]

Secondly, GFC owned these 2 jerseys and did not check them prior to purchasing them? Are these jerseys consignments? If not, then I have a very tough time believing that GFC would blindly purchase 2 jerseys like these with the intent to check them out after purchasing them. You don't buy a jersey and then start making calls. GFC knows exactly what it has in it's inventory.

Thirdly, why wait for Stu specifically? Personally, I just email Barry directly and he always gladly checks out any numbers I ask. On this particular jersey, Barry emailed me back literally within 5 min.

Fourthly, since when is GFC in the business of selling game-issued jerseys?All I've ever seen in their inventory are "game worn" jerseys. Of course, I guess they didn't know the jersey was game-issued when they bought it. They were going to check it out after purchasing it, right?

Fifthly, while saying it was accidental is one thing for the Palmeiro, did they have an answer for the Rodriguez, Chris? They sold an ARod with a GFC letter stating "game used" when it was in fact, game-issued. Did they accidentally put that one up for auction and sell it?
Hello Rudy-

I asked in my previous post if I had adequately answered the questions raised about Grey Flannel. I also agree everyone is entitled to formulate their own opinion. As such, I wanted to simply respond to your points above as I believe I solicited them in my previous post. Please note that I was not personally privy to what transpired and I am only relaying what I have been told. Thus, anything I post here is coming from an outsider who simply called Grey Flannel and relayed what was told to them.

I will only respond to points 2 through 5 since I have no opinions or perspectives on points 1 and 6 of your post.

Regarding point #2, I honestly have no idea (nor did I ask) if these jerseys were consigned to or owned by Grey Flannel. I pretty much approached the task as simply an attempt to provide Grey Flannel's perspective to the forum. I honestly didn't plan any additional questioning.

Regarding point #3, this is probably a question the people at MeiGray would need to answer. I can only relay what I was told from Keith in that Keith said the person at MeiGray told him he would need to speak with Stu and that Stu was not in that day. I honestly have no idea why no one else was asked. Once again, since I was not directly involved I cannot offer any additional perspective.

Regarding point #4, I am guessing this is based on the assumption that Grey Flannel purchased the jersey and it was not consigned to them. If they did purchase it I guess that goes back to your point #2.

Regarding point #5, I honestly did not ask Keith the specifics of the ARod jersey. I actually thought this thread was asking primarily about the Palmeiro so I did not ask him about anything else (including the ARod). As noted above, I approached the task simply to get Grey Flannel's perspective and provide it to the forum.

Please note that I am trying to answer your questions based on what I know as someone simply relaying what he was told and not someone involved in the situation. I wish I could be of more help but it appears the level of granularity you are seeking can only be answered by Keith or MeiGray. As such, I will have to leave it to them to respond. While I would love to be of more assistance, it appears these questions would involve more than simply relaying someone else's perspective (the only role I intended to play).

Rudy, please let me know if I have fairly addressed your questions based on what I know.

Sincerely,
Chris

[both-teams-played-hard]

I would like to sincerely thank Chris Cavalier for posting details of his correspondance with Grey Flannel. My last post was meant to be sarcastic. Not towards Chris C. but towards this sketchy excuse from GFC. I should have included a few LOLs and smiley face icons.


No further questions. The prosecution rests. The members of this forum should be ashamed of themselves for pre-judging Grey Flannel. Honest mistake.

"c'mon...you know Keith Hernandez? Get outta here! You expect me to believe that you know Keith Hernandez?...c'mon"

The Hernandez reference was taken from "Seinfeld" as a sign of disbelief:

GEORGE: I gave. I gave everything I could Mrs. Sokol. but nothing was good enough
for her.
MRS. SOKOL: Sign here please.
GEORGE: Ha, I don't know who she's looking for. I don't know. I'll tell you something.
She's very particular, your daughter. Very particular. What is she looking for some
big hot shot businessman? Well I've got my pride too. I'm not going to beg her.
MRS. SOKOL: All right just sign it. People are waiting.
GEORGE: You, uh, you like baseball? [picks up baseball from desk]
MRS. SOKOL: That was autographed by the '86 Mets. I saw every inning that year.
GEORGE: Funny, cause I happen to be very good friends with Keith Hernandez.
MRS. SOKOL: You know Keith Hernandez.
GEORGE: Know him? Would you, uh, like to meet him?
MRS. SOKOL: Oh, come on. Come on.
GEORGE: I can produce Keith Hernandez right here within the hour.
MRS. SOKOL: All right. You got ONE hour.
GEORGE: All right Mrs. S. I and my good pal Keith Hernandez will be right back.
[exits]

I would like to apologize to all forum members for my weak attempt at humor during this difficult situation.
And by the way...Grey Flannel has numerous sports relics and beautiful vintage jerseys in ALL of their auctions. I search their auctions in AMAZEMENT. I look forward to viewing their items. They always have tons of jerseys that I would love to own!

[kingjammy24]

Chris,

You've done more than ought to be realistically expected. As I mentioned, there are some serious incongruities with the explanation that GFC accidentally put the jersey up for auction; if the jersey was a consignment that was accidentally put on the site prior to researching it, then how were they able to put a firm price on it? If they were still waiting to hear back from MeiGray to find out if the jersey was game-issued or game-used, then how on earth were they able to come up with a price? They don't know the status of a jersey yet they can still price it?

If the jersey was not a consignment and GFC owned it, then they're saying that they bought it without contacting MeiGray first?

Rubbish.

And of course, how do they explain the ARod - a jersey they auctioned off, sold, and wrote a letter on that was in fact game-issued. It would be foolish to expect anyone but GFC to be able to answer those questions. Unfortunately, it also seems foolish to actually expect GFC to come here and answer those questions. I have little doubt that they've read this thread. As Joel has elaborated, GFC, like some timid forest creature, apparently needs to be gently coaxed and wooed out of its safety zone in order to do what Vintage Authentics and Lelands has done several times over. It's not an 'treat' or a 'privilege' for a public business to respond to legitimate consumer concerns. It's a responsibility. At this point Chris, I think you've done more than enough.

thanks for your efforts,

Rudy.

p.s. No I never got any sort of reply back from my email to GFC. Surprise.

[trsent]

Rudy, you should pick up the phone and invite GFC to come here to this forum and discuss topics of interest to you.

Oh wait, you must not use your phone because I know I emailed you to call me about something a few months ago and I never heard from you.

Did you hear, I am moving next week?