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aeneas01
09-06-2008, 07:08 AM
hunt:

"The attribute that we at Hunt Auctions, Inc. are best known for is our reputation for honesty and integrity. In today's marketplace the old auction adage of "Buyer Beware" has never been more appropriate as the number of unscrupulous dealers and forgers increases daily. We exercise great efforts to secure pieces from reputable sources including former Major League players, estates and private collections."

huggns & scott:

"A Sports Memorabilia Auction Company selling Baseball Cards, Football Cards, Graded Cards, Signed Autographed Vintage Sports, Boxing, Ice Hockey Memorabilia, Non-Sports & Americana Collectibles. WE TAKE IT ALL & WE SELL IT ALL"

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Huggins & Scott - LOT 1288 - 1966-71 Houston Oilers Game-Used #11 Helmet - Starting Bid $200.00
http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=8891

the two photos on the left show the helmet currently listed at h&s that is said to be an authentic, vintage, oilers gamer - further, h&s claims that it is a riddell helmet. bidding starts at $200. the helmet on the right is a modern nokona youth helmet available today, new, for around $70 or used on ebay for about $40. in short, the helmet h&s claims to be a vintage riddell game used oilers lid is in fact a modern, inexpensive youth helmet made to look like an oilers lid from yesteryear.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/fake01.jpg


fwiw the facemask and chinstrap found on the h&s helmet are reproduction accessories available at helmet hut and the side decals (oil derricks) are modern, thick mil, one piece knockoff vinyl decals readily available on ebay.

here are a couple of links to nokona youth helmets in the event you, or h&s, would like to pick up a few...

http://www.bizrate.com/footballequipment/oid746248669.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/Nokona-Youth-S-small-Football-Helmet-NEW_W0QQitemZ320169994800QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3 286.m20.l1116

here's a shot of the real deal....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/lid.jpg


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Hunt Auctions - LOT 581 - University of Michigan game helmet, c.1980s-90s.
http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=54&lot_num=581

Description: University of Michigan game helmet, c.1980s-90s. Blue and yellow Riddell VSR-4 helmet as issued for use by U of M. Exhibits extensive usage wear. Player unknown: EX with note to usage wear.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/mich.jpg

obviously not an authentic michigan gamer - wrong colors, decal wings instead of painted, etc., etc., etc. - you have to wonder if some auction houses don't even realize that high school teams throughout the country mimic college and pro uniforms - or even worse, you have to wonder if some auction houses do realize this but count on the fact that many that are new to collecting don't. god forbid the high school helmets pictured below ever fall into some of their hands...


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/mix.jpg


.......

allstarsplus
09-06-2008, 08:37 AM
Huggins & Scott - LOT 1288 - 1966-71 Houston Oilers Game-Used #11 Helmet - Starting Bid $200.00
http://www.hugginsandscott.com/cgi-bin/showitem.pl?itemid=8891


.......

Robert - The Huggins auction doesn't start until October 5th so all lots are on preview and open for analysis like you did.

I emailed Bill Huggins and I am very confident he will personally look into this and if it doesn't look right will be pulled.

This is how Bill has always handled past issues if you check their history.

Bill is as honest as they come so fear not and expect swift action on this one!

josh@hugginsandscott.com
09-06-2008, 10:48 AM
thank you for bringing this to our attention. I will certainly look into it and if, as you say, there is no way that it is a legit Oilers helmet, we will pull it from the auction and return it to the consignor.

thanks again,
Josh Wulkan
VP of Auction Operations
www.hugginsandscott.com

commando
09-06-2008, 11:50 AM
One of the main reasons I come to this forum is in hopes of finding a new aeneas01 post. This weekend has kicked off quite well!!! :)

aeneas01
09-06-2008, 06:37 PM
Robert - The Huggins auction doesn't start until October 5th so all lots are on preview and open for analysis like you did. I emailed Bill Huggins and I am very confident he will personally look into this and if it doesn't look right will be pulled. This is how Bill has always handled past issues if you check their history. Bill is as honest as they come so fear not and expect swift action on this one!

i'm very glad to hear that h&s is considered a very reputable and honest auction house - and a vote of confidence from a respected guu member such as yourself goes a very long way in my book.

the thing is i have such a tough time understanding how something like this could possibly happen at a reputable sports memorabilia auction house - and i have a tougher time understanding how something like this could have happened twice before (this helmet previously sold at auction, at least once before at h&s, for $600 & $800).

i mean it's not like this helmet remotely resembles an authentic, vintage riddell helmet from that era - yet h&s clearly states that it is indeed a vintage riddell helmet (presumably because of the riddell logo printed on the reproduction chinstrap). further the h&s lot description states that "extensive research" was performed on the helmet in an effort to determine, among other things, which player from that era wore the number "11" appearing on the helmet.

this would imply that h&s at least noticed the number "11" on the helmet - yet they didn't notice that the oilers never used the type/style of numbering appearing on this helmet?

anyway i'm sure it's just an honest mistake - but when you see something like this that is so obvious you have to question h&s's commitment to detail and/or the scope of their expertise.

...

allstarsplus
09-06-2008, 07:25 PM
Robert - I know when I have consigned "Game Used" to them I have been given the option of paying for an authenticator to give a Letter on it which I have done on some more expensive items.

Members of GUF like yourself has done them a great service and you should be commended for that. I am glad Josh jumped on it quickly.

The H&S main office is 20 minutes from my home so I have been able to see many of their pieces. In my opinion, much of their auction is sports cards and their game used items are certainly growing.

It appears to me that you have the most knowledge I have seen in helmets that you ought to think of branching out and do authentications for other auction houses for $$$.

RKGIBSON
09-06-2008, 09:59 PM
I agree, the real problem here is that these items made it into the auction. It just tell me that they do not have a clue what they are doing. They may be honest, but not knowledgable.

Roger

trsent
09-07-2008, 12:14 AM
I agree, the real problem here is that these items made it into the auction. It just tell me that they do not have a clue what they are doing. They may be honest, but not knowledgable.

Roger


i'm very glad to hear that h&s is considered a very reputable and honest auction house - and a vote of confidence from a respected guu member such as yourself goes a very long way in my book.

the thing is i have such a tough time understanding how something like this could possibly happen at a reputable sports memorabilia auction house - and i have a tougher time understanding how something like this could have happened twice before (this helmet previously sold at auction, at least once before at h&s, for $600 & $800).

i mean it's not like this helmet remotely resembles an authentic, vintage riddell helmet from that era - yet h&s clearly states that it is indeed a vintage riddell helmet (presumably because of the riddell logo printed on the reproduction chinstrap). further the h&s lot description states that "extensive research" was performed on the helmet in an effort to determine, among other things, which player from that era wore the number "11" appearing on the helmet.

this would imply that h&s at least noticed the number "11" on the helmet - yet they didn't notice that the oilers never used the type/style of numbering appearing on this helmet?

anyway i'm sure it's just an honest mistake - but when you see something like this that is so obvious you have to question h&s's commitment to detail and/or the scope of their expertise.

...

I think what is being forgotten here is that the auction houses have a ton of competition trying to find quality items. They are not experts on everything, and some auction houses try hard to be honest and come on here when something is called into question and do the right thing. Then there are some auction houses that read the forum and pull lots when there are issues found. Finally there are the auction houses who do not care what is found to be questionable - They ignore all the facts and pretend Game Used Universe doesn't exist.

This helmet made it through the ropes at Hunt Auctions, this great discussion forum brought it to their attention and they will pull the lot. They were classy enough to come on here and discuss it with us.

Every auction house is going to make an error from time to time, and working with them instead of scaring them away by criticizing them for missing something that may be obvious to some will hurt our reputation.

I have never even remember picking up a Hunt Auctions catalog, but I will tell you I am pleased they joined the discussion about this questionable item and we should keep them in good graces for the next time an error is found in their auction so the work with us unlike many auction houses that prefer to ignore Game Used Universe due to what they feel is unfair abuse (most of it, in the end, is deserved and fair).

aeneas01
09-07-2008, 03:16 AM
I think what is being forgotten here is that the auction houses have a ton of competition trying to find quality items. They are not experts on everything, and some auction houses try hard to be honest and come on here when something is called into question and do the right thing. Then there are some auction houses that read the forum and pull lots when there are issues found. Finally there are the auction houses who do not care what is found to be questionable - They ignore all the facts and pretend Game Used Universe doesn't exist.

This helmet made it through the ropes at Hunt Auctions, this great discussion forum brought it to their attention and they will pull the lot. They were classy enough to come on here and discuss it with us.

Every auction house is going to make an error from time to time, and working with them instead of scaring them away by criticizing them for missing something that may be obvious to some will hurt our reputation.

I have never even remember picking up a Hunt Auctions catalog, but I will tell you I am pleased they joined the discussion about this questionable item and we should keep them in good graces for the next time an error is found in their auction so the work with us unlike many auction houses that prefer to ignore Game Used Universe due to what they feel is unfair abuse (most of it, in the end, is deserved and fair).


first, huggins & scott joined this discussion, not hunt. second, both helmets remain listed at their sites. apparently h&s would rather let it ride while they look into it rather than pull it while they do their checking.

also keep in my mind that we're not discussing a vintage memorabilia item that could have easily been misidentified by anyone well versed in vintage sports memorabilia. we're not discussing, for example, an authentic 1960s game used rams suspension helmet made my gladiator that was erroneously listed as an authentic riddell suspension helmet. what we are discussing is a modern, readily available child's helmet, practically a toy, that has been listed by an experienced sports memorabilia auction house as a game used vintage professional model football helmet worn almost 50 years ago - and it was listed as something that was subjected to their "extensive research".

i don't consider this a minor lapse - a harmless oversight resulting from the "ton of competition" they face "trying to find quality items" as you mention. the item of topic is so blatantly and clearly not what h&s claims it to be that i consider it nothing short of a complete and total disregard for the accuracy of their own claims. further, if they are uncertain about the authenticity of an item, they have no business listing it as authentic. this isn't ebay - when a reputable sports memorabilia auction claims that an item is authentic, when it clearly states that "extensive research" has been performed, they better do better than this.

is it admirable that h&s jumped in here to say they would check it out? sure, although it doesn't exactly instill a great deal of confidence in me that something so obviously incorrect requires a fact finding mission. i would have been more impressed if h&s simply took one look at, gasped "how the heck did this toy make it to auction", and removed it immediately.

and, fwiw, i could really care less if an auction house feels alienated by critical posts, feels reluctant to participate in this forum because of what they deem to be harsh treatment. i'm only concerned about the collector - that he/she gets a fair and honest shake and receives what was described, what was advertised. but if i were you i wouldn't spend too much time worrying about auction houses - they are big boys, smart business folks and know how to make money. and that's why they do in fact visit guu.

...

trsent
09-07-2008, 04:39 AM
first, huggins & scott joined this discussion, not hunt. second, both helmets remain listed at their sites. apparently h&s would rather let it ride while they look into it rather than pull it while they do their checking.

also keep in my mind that we're not discussing a vintage memorabilia item that could have easily been misidentified by anyone well versed in vintage sports memorabilia. we're not discussing, for example, an authentic 1960s game used rams suspension helmet made my gladiator that was erroneously listed as an authentic riddell suspension helmet. what we are discussing is a modern, readily available child's helmet, practically a toy, that has been listed by an experienced sports memorabilia auction house as a game used vintage professional model football helmet worn almost 50 years ago - and it was listed as something that was subjected to their "extensive research".

i don't consider this a minor lapse - a harmless oversight resulting from the "ton of competition" they face "trying to find quality items" as you mention. the item of topic is so blatantly and clearly not what h&s claims it to be that i consider it nothing short of a complete and total disregard for the accuracy of their own claims. further, if they are uncertain about the authenticity of an item, they have no business listing it as authentic. this isn't ebay - when a reputable sports memorabilia auction claims that an item is authentic, when it clearly states that "extensive research" has been performed, they better do better than this.

is it admirable that h&s jumped in here to say they would check it out? sure, although it doesn't exactly instill a great deal of confidence in me that something so obviously incorrect requires a fact finding mission. i would have been more impressed if h&s simply took one look at, gasped "how the heck did this toy make it to auction", and removed it immediately.

and, fwiw, i could really care less if an auction house feels alienated by critical posts, feels reluctant to participate in this forum because of what they deem to be harsh treatment. i'm only concerned about the collector - that he/she gets a fair and honest shake and receives what was described, what was advertised. but if i were you i wouldn't spend too much time worrying about auction houses - they are big boys, smart business folks and know how to make money. and that's why they do in fact visit guu.

...

So, you do not blame them for leaving the item listed while they investigate your claim and that is your issue? If it was my auction, I would wait to be sure to verify your allegations before pulling the item - Not that you are wrong, but they have to do some homework before pulling a consignors lot - Good or bad. I do not know what the difference is from Hunt and Huggins and Scott, so I do not know what the issue is there.

I think you should appreciate that you will help a collector not end up with a replica item and not continue to harass the auction house for missing an item. People are trusting, and all the complainers who constantly say I defend the auction houses too much are missing the point here - They said they will pull the item and you continue to preach how it should have never got by their authentication process in the first place.

Life goes on, you did a great job and then you continue to state how this should have never passed and you want to punish an auction house for promising to do the right thing.

No big deal to my life, but you should sleep well knowing you helped save an innocent person from buying a suspect item and let sleeping dogs lie. I think that is how the saying goes.

aeneas01
09-07-2008, 06:33 AM
"So, you do not blame them for leaving the item listed while they investigate your claim and that is your issue? If it was my auction, I would wait to be sure to verify your allegations before pulling the item - Not that you are wrong, but they have to do some homework before pulling a consignors lot - Good or bad."

you obviously made up the part i underlined - they are required to do no such thing.

"I do not know what the difference is from Hunt and Huggins and Scott, so I do not know what the issue is there."

i have no idea what you are talking about.

"I think you should appreciate that you will help a collector not end up with a replica item and not continue to harass the auction house for missing an item."

joel, i've wanted to mention this to you in past but have held off... here's the thing - you are the one that perpetuates and fuels the negative comments leveled towards auction houses and dealers. you. forum members post their thoughts, concerns and warnings when they find issues. you respond to these posts by inviting more discussion, further examples and additional damnation. do you not see this? perhaps you sincerely believe that you are going to bat for some of the auction houses that have been mentioned in the past -but, trust me, you are doing them more harm than good.

"They said they will pull the item and you continue to preach how it should have never got by their authentication process in the first place."

case in point joel - now i'm forced to respond as follows: when an auction lists garbage, doesn't check their work, yet has the audacity to say that the item has undergone "extensive research" all should be forgotten, or they should be praised, if they simply come on this board and say "we'll check it out"? is that what you really think?

"Life goes on, you did a great job and then you continue to state how this should have never passed and you want to punish an auction house for promising to do the right thing."

life does indeed go on and, unfortunately, so do the mistakes auction houses continue to make - it goes on and on. should auction be expected to get it right 100% of the time? of course not - no one that i know would hold them to such a standard. is it unrealistic to expect an experienced sports memorabilia auction house to know the difference between a child's helmet available today at the corner sporting goods store and a circa late 60s vintage, game used pro football helmet? no, i don't think this is unrealistic.

...

trsent
09-07-2008, 07:12 AM
"So, you do not blame them for leaving the item listed while they investigate your claim and that is your issue? If it was my auction, I would wait to be sure to verify your allegations before pulling the item - Not that you are wrong, but they have to do some homework before pulling a consignors lot - Good or bad."

you obviously made up the part i underlined - they are required to do no such thing.

"I do not know what the difference is from Hunt and Huggins and Scott, so I do not know what the issue is there."

i have no idea what you are talking about.

"I think you should appreciate that you will help a collector not end up with a replica item and not continue to harass the auction house for missing an item."

joel, i've wanted to mention this to you in past but have held off... here's the thing - you are the one that perpetuates and fuels the negative comments leveled towards auction houses and dealers. you. forum members post their thoughts, concerns and warnings when they find issues. you respond to these posts by inviting more discussion, further examples and additional damnation. do you not see this? perhaps you sincerely believe that you are going to bat for some of the auction houses that have been mentioned in the past -but, trust me, you are doing them more harm than good.

"They said they will pull the item and you continue to preach how it should have never got by their authentication process in the first place."

case in point joel - now i'm forced to respond as follows: when an auction lists garbage, doesn't check their work, yet has the audacity to say that the item has undergone "extensive research" all should be forgotten, or they should be praised, if they simply come on this board and say "we'll check it out"? is that what you really think?

"Life goes on, you did a great job and then you continue to state how this should have never passed and you want to punish an auction house for promising to do the right thing."

life does indeed go on and, unfortunately, so do the mistakes auction houses continue to make - it goes on and on. should auction be expected to get it right 100% of the time? of course not - no one that i know would hold them to such a standard. is it unrealistic to expect an experienced sports memorabilia auction house to know the difference between a child's helmet available today at the corner sporting goods store and a circa late 60s vintage, game used pro football helmet? no, i don't think this is unrealistic.

...


I am sorry you do not like to hear the truth, that auction houses and police officers do make mistakes, and you can pick on my reply, point by point to try to make me look like a fool (I don't, you just didn't re-read your post before reading mine to understand my comments), but at the end of the day they said they will remove the lot if they confirm your findings and that is not good enough for you.

Get over it, you are an expert at some things, they are an expert at others and they made a mistake and for once an auction house came on here and said they would correct it and you still are ripping them.

Why? Am I the bad guy here for telling you to work with them and throw away that box of Kleenex? Say something positive when the auction house says they will work with your comments and findings and don't continue to whine that they made an error they should have never made.

Everyone makes errors, be it judges, cops, art auction houses, gold buyers (I have bought gold that wasn't gold), presidents, lawyers, priests, rabbis, other holy figures, Adam and Eve, John Belushi, Ted Kennedy and I could go on and on...(Warren, a funny photo of this concept would be nice) but you want to rant over how this error should have never happened - Deal with it. Don't buy from them, but they said they would make good and you were still complaining and that is INSANE.

Have a nice day, life is too short to lose sleep over other's errors that do not keep food off your family's table.

trsent
09-07-2008, 07:18 AM
case in point joel - now i'm forced to respond as follows: when an auction lists garbage, doesn't check their work, yet has the audacity to say that the item has undergone "extensive research" all should be forgotten, or they should be praised, if they simply come on this board and say "we'll check it out"? is that what you really think?



I forgot to mention, maybe if people stopped assuming that all auction houses are out to commit blatant fraud (I only assume one myself) and understand that they receive consignments that they take at the word of their consignor the item is genuine - Then you would stop rubbing in errors that were already promised to be corrected.

There is a difference between an error and fraud and no one at Hunt, Huggins, Scott or whoever was intentionally trying to commit fraud with this helmet - I'd bet double or nothing on the money I lost on Stanford last night on that prop.

lund6771
09-07-2008, 09:33 AM
Robert does a great job helping anyone and everyone when they need help with a helmet question...

Everyone of his posts have substance and I enjoy reading them because I feel educated...Thanks Robert!!!!

At least for myself....I definitely skip over any post that TRsent puts up here because there is never any substance..I got suckered in on this one because I saw Robert was posting and was looking forward to learning something...but there he is rying to instigate again

I hope that you aren't offended in any way by this guy Robert...because if you quit posting, like other knowlegable people have, the forum will be taking 10 Steps back!!!

RKGIBSON
09-07-2008, 10:09 AM
Joel,

Come on, this stuff slipped through the cracks. It's not like this is a good replica. This is yard sale stuff that kids play with. Who ever passed this is just not knowledgable enough to be making those decisions on football helmets. Can you admit that. No on brought up fraud but you. You do fuel the fires here with you defending things that have no defense.

I am glad that the auction company reads the forum and actually came here to respond, thank you. I am confident that they will pull the items when the evaluate the information give. I have no problem with them making their own opinion. My original post was meant to say to them, they need someone that knows helmets to clear them for auction. No one can know everything about all kinds of sports items. My guess is the went off the word of the consignor or possibly one of the many worthless LOA's given to junk like this everyday.

Liberals never want anyone to feel blame, cirumstances caused this, right Joel?

Roger

josh@hugginsandscott.com
09-07-2008, 11:24 AM
All:

very interesting discussion. All of us at Huggins and Scott appreciate the support that we receive from many of you (Aaron, Joel, etc...). I do apologize for letting the item into the auction in the first place. We try our best to do research on every item that we sell, but to be honest, we are human and we do make mistakes. In this particular case, this helmet was sold to us about a year and half ago in a large deal of other authentic game-used football helmets. A few of the better ones were looked at by an advanced collector and he purchased those, as he liked them. What was left, was sold individually in our October 2007 sale. This Oilers helmet was one of them. The research that was done was to determine the potential players who wore #11 at the time that this helmet would have been used.

We have since pulled the helmet and fully refunded the consignor his money and apologized for any error or inconvenience. I will also offer our apologies to the board, as it is not our intention to deceive anyone or offer "bad" material to the public. We will stand behind any item we sell and we are thankful that people like Robert and others have more knowledge than we do on items like this and can help us sell only quality items through our auction.

If you have any other questions, or concerns, please feel free to email me directly. One of the things that we take great pride in is our customer service. In the future, if someone has an issue with what we are selling, you can email me directly and we can have a discussion about it.

thanks again,
Josh Wulkan
VP of Auction Operations
Huggins and Scott Auctions
www.hugginsandscott.com

RKGIBSON
09-07-2008, 01:35 PM
Josh,

Thank you for a honest explanation. Most auction companies never respond to points raised here. Integrity over money will always lend benefits in the future.

Roger

cjmedina1
09-07-2008, 01:53 PM
Forum Members

I'm in no way a expert in game used helmets,But I can recognize great customer service.People make mistakes and as long we all learn from our mistakes,We are going to be that much smarter down the road....This is my first time reading about an H&S auction item having a problem........I think they've handled it in a timely,professional matter.To top it all off The V.P of Operations Josh Wulkan came on this message board and gave us an explanation on how they got the item and the result of the findings in this thread,Now having the auction lot pulled.For H&S to come on here admit they made a mistake,It says alot and I tip my hat to them,I cant say that about other auction houses.

On a personal note I've won 2 items in different auctions from H&S and I'm very impressed with their customer service....So Josh tell your team to keep up the good work and I cant wait until you get some more high end Mcgwire bats :D

Carlie Medina III
carliemedinaiii@sbcglobal.net

trsent
09-07-2008, 02:11 PM
Robert does a great job helping anyone and everyone when they need help with a helmet question...

Everyone of his posts have substance and I enjoy reading them because I feel educated...Thanks Robert!!!!

At least for myself....I definitely skip over any post that TRsent puts up here because there is never any substance..I got suckered in on this one because I saw Robert was posting and was looking forward to learning something...but there he is rying to instigate again

I hope that you aren't offended in any way by this guy Robert...because if you quit posting, like other knowlegable people have, the forum will be taking 10 Steps back!!!

I do not mind Robert's posts until the auction house comes on the forum, says they will look into the issue and Robert still complains how they could have made the error in the first place.

Now Huggins and Scott has given a full explanation and pulled the lot.

We have an auction house that replies to us on the forum and Robert didn't want to accept they made an error, he wants them to still be punished after admitting they would investigate the error.

Pete Peschel, I do not know what your issue is with me, but I have not seen or talked to you in over 15 years. If you have anything you wish to discuss, my email address is listed in every post I make on Game Used Universe and I will gladly correspond with you if you have anything you would like to work out. If you do not wish to read my posts, click on my used name above and there is a button you can click to block my posts.

Again, I do not mind the research Robert has done, I find it amazing. I mind that after the auction house comes on here and comments, they still received a hard time for doing what was right. Errors happen, a lack of understanding is an issue.

commando
09-07-2008, 02:36 PM
First off, let me say that my post is not targeted at Huggins & Scott in any way, but to sports auction houses in general. There is no doubt in my mind that Huggins & Scott is an honest, reputable establishment that has excellent communication, as we have seen in this thread. I wholeheartedly think that the helmet in question here was listed in error (which I'll give my humble opinion on below).

We all understand that the competent authentication of vintage memorabilia is important because of an obvious reason -- big money is at stake. Hungry collectors seem quite happy to spend big bucks on scarce jersey and helmet styles (which the 1966-71 Houston Oilers helmet style certainly qualifies. I can't remember the last time I saw one available). As far as the present debate between trsent (Joel) and aeneas01 (Robert), I believe both of you bring up good points. My humble opinion resembles that of Robert's more closely, and here's why:

It's true that everyone makes mistakes in life and at their jobs... But I believe there are different levels of mistakes, and we all know there are different levels of consequences. For example, sticking with the police officer theme, let's say that an officer issues a ticket to someone for "jaywalking" across a street, and it later turns out the pedestrian hadn't broken any laws. A judge can find the person "not guilty" and life goes on. But what if the officer believes he sees someone jaywalking, throws them to the ground, cuffs them, puts them in the back of a patrol car, and brings them to jail? Not only would the officer lose their job, but they would probably lose their house too after the civil suit.

Keep in mind that a police officer has been thoroughly trained, both in an academy and with training officers on the street, so this kind of example rarely happens.

What I'm trying to say is that there are definitely different "levels" of mistakes, as others have pointed out. It is not enough to just say that everyone makes them... You need to consider the severity of the mistake versus the supposed qualifications of the expert. When an auction house states, "...we strive not only to have the best in the business authenticating our memorabilia, but also to have the most experience possible in our team of authenticators to always ensure our customers satisfaction" (once again, this is not talking about Huggins & Scott), what are they stating? Hopefully, this means a simple Getty Images search won't make them look like fools.

Debate is a good thing. Mudslinging is not. The vast majority of us want to be a part of a fun, clean hobby. Maybe we have differing opinions on what "mudslinging" actually means. But i think we all realize that knowledge is key in this hobby, and threads in this forum have given me lots of it.

lund6771
09-07-2008, 03:49 PM
I do not mind Robert's posts until the auction house comes on the forum, says they will look into the issue and Robert still complains how they could have made the error in the first place.

Now Huggins and Scott has given a full explanation and pulled the lot.

We have an auction house that replies to us on the forum and Robert didn't want to accept they made an error, he wants them to still be punished after admitting they would investigate the error.

Pete Peschel, I do not know what your issue is with me, but I have not seen or talked to you in over 15 years. If you have anything you wish to discuss, my email address is listed in every post I make on Game Used Universe and I will gladly correspond with you if you have anything you would like to work out. If you do not wish to read my posts, click on my used name above and there is a button you can click to block my posts.

Again, I do not mind the research Robert has done, I find it amazing. I mind that after the auction house comes on here and comments, they still received a hard time for doing what was right. Errors happen, a lack of understanding is an issue.

I have no issues with you...in fact I don't ever remember speaking with you 15 years ago...have I bought somethng from you?...

anyways it seems that you have opinions on every thread...I'm a substance kind of guy and not a Chatty Cathy....and it seems to me that you try to instigate..maybe I'm wromg, but that's how I'm reading it

I enjoy coming on here and learning from guys like Robert and many others...I hope that knowledgable people like them will not be turned of from the forum because of mixing it up with you

but it is a free world so post away and I'll follow your suggestion about the block button

lund6771
09-07-2008, 03:58 PM
I also think that H & S' s post was very positive as well..

it'd be nice if other auction houses did the same....I don't know anything about helmets, but if Robert feels that strongly about what this helmet really is....it must be that bad

trsent
09-07-2008, 04:01 PM
I have no issues with you...in fact I don't ever remember speaking with you 15 years ago...have I bought somethng from you?...

anyways it seems that you have opinions on every thread...I'm a substance kind of guy and not a Chatty Cathy....and it seems to me that you try to instigate..maybe I'm wromg, but that's how I'm reading it

I enjoy coming on here and learning from guys like Robert and many others...I hope that knowledgable people like them will not be turned of from the forum because of mixing it up with you

but it is a free world so post away and I'll follow your suggestion about the block button

If you don't remember me, no big deal. I remember you so we will leave it at that. Do you still have a brick throwing gallery in your basement?

aeneas01
09-07-2008, 05:41 PM
All:

very interesting discussion. All of us at Huggins and Scott appreciate the support that we receive from many of you (Aaron, Joel, etc...). I do apologize for letting the item into the auction in the first place. We try our best to do research on every item that we sell, but to be honest, we are human and we do make mistakes. In this particular case, this helmet was sold to us about a year and half ago in a large deal of other authentic game-used football helmets. A few of the better ones were looked at by an advanced collector and he purchased those, as he liked them. What was left, was sold individually in our October 2007 sale. This Oilers helmet was one of them. The research that was done was to determine the potential players who wore #11 at the time that this helmet would have been used.

We have since pulled the helmet and fully refunded the consignor his money and apologized for any error or inconvenience. I will also offer our apologies to the board, as it is not our intention to deceive anyone or offer "bad" material to the public. We will stand behind any item we sell and we are thankful that people like Robert and others have more knowledge than we do on items like this and can help us sell only quality items through our auction.

If you have any other questions, or concerns, please feel free to email me directly. One of the things that we take great pride in is our customer service. In the future, if someone has an issue with what we are selling, you can email me directly and we can have a discussion about it.

thanks again,
Josh Wulkan
VP of Auction Operations
Huggins and Scott Auctions
www.hugginsandscott.com (http://www.hugginsandscott.com)


josh -

i agree that it has been an interesting discussion and i think it's very commendable (and beneficial to all concerned) that you chose to participate in this discussion.

for the record, i emailed your company with my concerns the first time you listed this helmet a year and a half ago - as a matter of fact the photos of the helmet that i've included in this thread are actually from your previous auction, not your current auction, which i saved to my reference photo database. despite the two emails i sent, your company never responded and the helmet eventually sold for around $800. to be clear, this was before i was an active member to this forum - before i began posting such concerns publicly.

i would like to think that my emails to you were simply lost in the shuffle - that you didn't respond this time around simply because the issue was made public. i mention this only because of my past experiences with other auction houses. but given the nice things forum members i respect have said about your company, i'm sure my emails to you must have simply been an unfortunate oversight.

as i mentioned before, i understand that mistakes do happen - in all walks of life. no one at this forum expects an auction house to bat 1.000. further, i don't believe that anyone implied that it was h&s's intention to deceive in this matter - i know i certainly didn't. as i stated, my concern was that i found it very difficult to understand how such an obviously problematic item could have passed even the most casual inspection. but from your explanation it appears that the helmet was never really looked at - an "advanced collector" looked at a few of the helmets from your bulk buy and purchased those and the "extensive research" preformed by your company was only to determine who might have worn number 11 during that era. if this is the case how could you list the helmet as an authentic game used helmet? and if the "advanced collector" did look at the oilers helmet, were you not curious why he would pass on such a rare item?

btw was the current consignor the same person that purchased your helmet a year and a half ago for around $800? if not, will you contact the original buyer? is that even possible now that so much time has passed? i know that mastro had success contacting the buyers of erroneously advertised helmets, helmets that mastro incorrectly claimed were authenticated by mears.

anyway thanks again for participating in this discussion - more importantly thanks for understanding that the goal here is not to marginalize the reputations of auction houses but, as you put so well, help auction houses sell only quality items through their auctions.


...

RKGIBSON
09-07-2008, 07:00 PM
Lund,

Have you got Earnest T. Bass in your basement?

Roger

jppopma
09-07-2008, 07:37 PM
I normally don't respond to the drama on here, but seeing that people are trying to explain things with police examples...I will give some law enforcement input.

Say an officer gets a call of a bank robbery with the description of a white male wearing a red ballcap. He drives down the street and sees a black male wearing this white Oilers helmet. He grabs the guy he sees walking and cuffs him up. Now when someone else points out that he made an OBVIOUS error...what does he do? Accept that the error is obvious and move on, or say let's hold this guy for an hour while we do some more checking.

The point that Aeneas brought up is that sometimes mistake is so obvious, that there should be no need for an in depth investigastion to it.

As for the auction houses, kuddos to Huggins and Scott for making amends. With the money they all make, I'm sure they can pay some pretty good lawyers to write a 10 page liability clause. That's the whole purpose of this forum; to help people with the buyer beware aspect that our hobby brings.

trsent
09-08-2008, 12:19 AM
I normally don't respond to the drama on here, but seeing that people are trying to explain things with police examples...I will give some law enforcement input.

Say an officer gets a call of a bank robbery with the description of a white male wearing a red ballcap. He drives down the street and sees a black male wearing this white Oilers helmet. He grabs the guy he sees walking and cuffs him up. Now when someone else points out that he made an OBVIOUS error...what does he do? Accept that the error is obvious and move on, or say let's hold this guy for an hour while we do some more checking.

The point that Aeneas brought up is that sometimes mistake is so obvious, that there should be no need for an in depth investigastion to it.

As for the auction houses, kuddos to Huggins and Scott for making amends. With the money they all make, I'm sure they can pay some pretty good lawyers to write a 10 page liability clause. That's the whole purpose of this forum; to help people with the buyer beware aspect that our hobby brings.

Amen.

both-teams-played-hard
09-08-2008, 01:33 AM
Lund,

Have you got Earnest T. Bass in your basement?

Roger
right-wing nut
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/5913/rightwingnutnk2.jpg

josh@hugginsandscott.com
09-08-2008, 10:55 AM
Robert,

we actually have only sold this helmet once. It was in our March 2007 sale. The hammer price was $600.00 + 15% buyers premium = $690.00. The person that bought it is the same person that consigned it back to us for this auction and we completely refunded his money.

As for your emails, I am actually the person that receives every email that comes to the general mailbox of our company and there has not been a single email questioning the authenticity of any item that I have not personally and specifically addressed. I am not saying you didn't send the emails, but I can guarantee you, that if I had received them, I absolutely would have addressed the situation. I can also guarantee that if those emails had been as clear as your post here, there is no way I would have left that Oilers helmet in our March 2007 sale. Believe me, I have been doing shows and in this business for 23 years, since I was 13 years old (all with Bill Huggins). If situations like this arise, I deal with them, immediately. I don't want any bad items in the market place, and certainly not ones that we would have sold. I apologize if those emails were sent and not responded to, but I can assure you that I didn't receive them. For the future, for you and anyone else, please feel free to keep my direct email around. If you ever see anything in any one of our auctions, that you have questions on, please email me and I will be happy to look into it and try to resolve the matter as quickly as possible.

thanks again,
Josh Wulkan
VP of Auction Operations
Huggins and Scott Auctions
josh@hugginsandscott.com

aeneas01
09-08-2008, 05:08 PM
Robert,

we actually have only sold this helmet once. It was in our March 2007 sale. The hammer price was $600.00 + 15% buyers premium = $690.00. The person that bought it is the same person that consigned it back to us for this auction and we completely refunded his money.

As for your emails, I am actually the person that receives every email that comes to the general mailbox of our company and there has not been a single email questioning the authenticity of any item that I have not personally and specifically addressed. I am not saying you didn't send the emails, but I can guarantee you, that if I had received them, I absolutely would have addressed the situation. I can also guarantee that if those emails had been as clear as your post here, there is no way I would have left that Oilers helmet in our March 2007 sale. Believe me, I have been doing shows and in this business for 23 years, since I was 13 years old (all with Bill Huggins). If situations like this arise, I deal with them, immediately. I don't want any bad items in the market place, and certainly not ones that we would have sold. I apologize if those emails were sent and not responded to, but I can assure you that I didn't receive them. For the future, for you and anyone else, please feel free to keep my direct email around. If you ever see anything in any one of our auctions, that you have questions on, please email me and I will be happy to look into it and try to resolve the matter as quickly as possible.

thanks again,
Josh Wulkan
VP of Auction Operations
Huggins and Scott Auctions
josh@hugginsandscott.com


i have to say josh, you have convinced me of the following:

1. my previous emails to h&s concerning this helmet did not make it to your attention. 2. if they had you would have certainly acted in the same professional, prompt manner as now. 3. huggins & scott genuinely cares about their customers, the health of the hobby and the items they represent.

on another positive note, it appears that hunt auctions has also removed the other helmet i mentioned in this thread - the michigan helmet they had listed as an authentic gamer.

not a bad monday for collectors and their bank accounts.

...

b.heagy
09-08-2008, 05:16 PM
Robert,
I was curious if you had tried to contact Hunt Auctions with your concerns. I have always had great response with them in the past.

Great work as always. You never cease to amaze me with the knowledge that you are willing to share with everyone. Keep up the good work my friend, the hobby NEEDS you.