New York Jets Rawlings Jerseys

[cohibasmoker]

If any Jets fans gets a chance, check out the 1967 New York Jets jersey being offered by Hunt Auctions. The jersey comes with a MEARS A8 LOA. But, how can that be? I thought Rawlings didn't make the jerseys for the Jets during this period? Interesting.

http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=54&lot_num=156

Jim

[nyjetsfan14]

If any Jets fans gets a chance, check out the 1967 New York Jets jersey being offered by Hunt Auctions. The jersey comes with a MEARS A8 LOA. But, how can that be? I thought Rawlings didn't make the jerseys for the Jets during this period? Interesting.

http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/imageviewer.cfm?auction_num=54&lot_num=156

Jim

Interesting that an auction house would offer a supposed game worn Jets jersey that is in no way consistent with Jets gamers of the era? Yeah, you rarely if ever see auction houses do that type of thing :confused:

[cohibasmoker]

Interesting that an auction house would offer a supposed game worn Jets jersey that is in no way consistent with Jets gamers of the era? Yeah, you rarely if ever see auction houses do that type of thing :confused:

It's not just Hunt's - the jersey comes with a MEARS LOA - maybe the jersey is consistent?

Jim

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1504/jets4ny1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/9839/jets8vo4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5563/jets1abg8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/3528/jets6ya8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Original thread asking about this jersey:http://www.network54.com/Forum/379976/thread/1108506439/last-1108583401/Any+idea+about+this+Jets+Jersey-

I sold this jersey about three years ago...I do not remember the buyer. KingJammy- how about some imagery analysis?
Hunt Auction:
http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/8382/jets17lz7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[both-teams-played-hard]

http://www.both-teams-played-hard.com/catalog/item/1438508/1367790.htm

[nyjetsfan14]

It's not just Hunt's - the jersey comes with a MEARS LOA - maybe the jersey is consistent?

Jim

Absolutely, maybe it is consistent when you are desparately trying to pimp a similar jersey all around for mega profit. In your case it is quite obvious you are only going to hear what you want to hear - in this case your coveted MEARS LOA. I regret all the time and effort I spent politely on your behalf and then when the results weren't want you needed you copped an attitude. Do me a favor and please do not contact me anymore regarding Jets items. Any further questions should be directed to the MEARS authentication team :D

[cohibasmoker]

Absolutely, maybe it is consistent when you are desparately trying to pimp a similar jersey all around for mega profit. In your case it is quite obvious you are only going to hear what you want to hear - in this case your coveted MEARS LOA. I regret all the time and effort I spent politely on your behalf and then when the results weren't want you needed you copped an attitude. Do me a favor and please do not contact me anymore regarding Jets items. Any further questions should be directed to the MEARS authentication team :D

Very professional comments. Yes, I do have a Jets jersey that was worn by John Huarte. I got the jersey and a letter from the gentleman who stated that the jersey was obtained directly from a gentleman who currently works for the Jets. My jersey along with other durene jerseys were found in the NY Jets training facility in a large hamper in the mid-1980's. Some of the jerseys had NOB that were stripped while others were completely intact.

I have four questions for you:

-One: In all the research that you have done on 1960's Jets jerseys, can you say that you assumptions are 100% correct that Rawlings NEVER made the jerseys for the Jets in the mid 1960's?

-Two: In your research, have there been any inconsistencies or wild cards in their jersey design and/or manufacturers who supplied the jerseys for the Jets?

-Three: How do you explain the jerseys that Brad Moore, MEARS, BTPH, and my Huarte - which came directly from the Jets training room lockerroom?

-Four: Were the buyers who have purchased Rawlings manufactured Jets jerseys both on eBay and Hunt's auction in the 1000.00 range ripped off?

PS Try to keep it professional and if you can, stay away from the "pimp" references - it's not nice or professional. As for the copped attitute, You have my permission to post any email that I wrote you that shows that I had a "copped" attitude. To be fair and balanced, my only request is that you post the entire email - including your comments.

[both-teams-played-hard]

I am trying to point out that I think the shirt that I sold is the SAME one as the one sold by Hunt's. In my opinion, the "HOWLAND" nameplate was removed AFTER it left the BTPH facility, here in Los Angeles.
Please review the archived thread link from the original GUF.


*BTPH facility is code for a "duffle bag in my closet".

[trsent]

From the MEARS web site, Troy Kinunen responds:

1967 Jets Jersey in Hunts current auction

October 1 2008 at 9:50 PM Troy R. Kinunen (troy@mearsonline.com) (Login troykinunen2008 (http://www.network54.com/Profile/troykinunen2008))

I have been asked via email regarding the LOO MEARS issued in support of 1967 Mike Taliaferro game-worn New York Jets road jersey which appears in the current Hunt’s Internet auction. The topic has been discussed on the Game Used Forum, http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=18550 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=18550)

Some folks on the GUF have a different opinion of the evaluation offered by MEARS. Discussions and critique of the MEARS evaluation process is actually encourage by MEARS as long as it is done in a professional and honest manner.

The entire MEARS evaluation system was developed to offer the hobby complete transparency which allows collectors to see what MEARS said about and item and why. This feature is supported by our voluntary offering of all LOO’s online to MEARS members.

By supplying the LOO’s online, this allows all interested members the ability to see what we said about an item. If we are correct, this information can be used by other collectors to evaluate their own items. If we are in error, the collecting public can dispute our findings and we can make any necessary amendments. By archiving our findings, this creates the basis for which future evaluations can be predicated on.

MEARS does use previously completed LOO’s as one of the tools used for the evaluation process. This is also used in addition to the 74,000 images currently digitally archived in the MEARS database. With all of this information, a collector might rightfully ask why would MEARS offer an opinion on a Rawlings supplied Jets jersey?

Fair question. I will use the question of did Rawlings supply the Jets with jerseys to support the opinion we offered. Upon public review, we may be found to be correct, or evidence may indicate we need to revise our letter. This is a practice that we always encourage, especially when new information is brought to our attention. This may or not be the case of this question Jets jersey. I want to use this Jets jersey as an example to explain the thought process that went into our evaluation and how we reached our conclusion.

Our task was to evaluate whether or not Rawlings supplied the New York Jets with game worn jerseys?

To begin our evaluation, MEARS referenced the followings sources:

MEARS LOO database: 0 1960s Jets game worn jerseys examined

MEARS jersey archives: 2 Joe Namath game worn jerseys, non Rawlings

Google search: AMI sold 3 1960s game worn Jets jerseys. None were Rawlings.

Actual examples examined were:

1960s Pete Perreault Jets Durene Jersey (Sandknit) (w/Family Letter http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=39485 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=39485)

1969 Don Maynard Jets Durene Jersey (Champion) http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=40204 (http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=40204)

1960s Jets MacGregor MEARS database

With all of our current data, we could only find 5 game used Jets jerseys which were offered publicly for sale. The MEARS jersey archives show a high percentage of game worn jerseys which were offered through major auctions. There were zero examples of common players, and the only player referenced was Joe Namath. This means that to our knowledge, there have only been 6 or so game worn Jets jerseys to be offered publicly.

With such a small sampling, we did not feel that manufacture alone would indicate whether this jersey was game worn or not.

As in the case of the Chicago Bears, it was long thought that only King O Shea was the supplier of the team’s jerseys in the 1960s. As the hobby developed, documented Wilson examples entered the market, thus verifying two suppliers. By searching the MEARS LOO database, we were able to conduct trend analysis regarding manufacture. MEARS did examine one 1960s AFL Rawlings supplied jersey.

Regarding Rawlings jersey being issued to be used in the NFL during the 1960s, MEARS examined a 1967-70 Jim Tyrer Chiefs Road jersey MEARS A8 supplied by Rawlings.

Therefore, we had confirmation that Rawlings did supply AFL teams during the 1960s with jerseys. We did not feel it was too much of a stretch to conclude the Jets wore Rawlings jerseys, especially when there were only 5 or so additional jerseys available for comparison, as in the case of the Bears the team was supplied by several vendors, and Rawlings was a documented AFL jersey supplier.

With respects to the Rawlings tag, it verified as being the correct style, 1962-73 (MEARS tagging database, courtesy of Dave Grob), as being the proper tag expected to be found on a circa 1967-69 Jets game worn jersey.

#17 was issued during the era of 1962-67. At the end of the time span, 1967, the number was assigned to Mike Talaferro. At the time of evaluation, the jersey did not contain a nameplate. I was unaware of the fact that the jersey had previously sold with a nameplate. MEARS did accurately note that the nameplate had been removed.

In summary, I want to open this jersey up to discussion while explaining the process used to offer our original opinion. MEARS based our findings on:

1. Correct style of Rawlings tag for the period of 1967-69
2. The fact Rawlings did provide AFL teams with jersey during the same time span
3. #17 was issued by the Jets during the time span
4. Style of jersey. Corbis BE059563 illustrates the Jets in 1969 wore a white shell body, similar sleeve stripes, and body and sleeve numbers with serifs.


There were very few common player jerseys available for comparison; therefore MEARS evaluated the jersey based on facts 1-4. In addition, the jersey was thought to be issued to a non-Hall of Fame player. Typically, forgeries are found of players at the caliber of Joe Namath. We thought that a jersey thought to be Mike Talaferro would less likely be forged.

Now, that was the basis of our original opinion. We were not aware that the jersey had previously sold with a nameplate. I do not know who removed the nameplate or why. This fact may or may not change our opinion. If any Jets experts can shed light on this subject, we will be happy to share any information. In addition, I will offer the fee charged for evaluating this jersey to any party that can provide information that supports/refutes our original findings.

This post was intended to explain the process applied to the evaluation of this jersey, and if we were in error, to at least illustrate that a logical step by step process was applied and our original conclusion was based on reason.

Regards,


Troy Kinunen
MEARS

[kingjammy24]

KingJammy- how about some imagery analysis?


all you ladies need to do is ask hunt for a close-up photo of the rawlings tag on their jersey. upon receipt, it will immediately be apparent if it's the same howland jersey that warren humphrey of los angeles, CA sold years ago.

who's going to be macho enough to ask hunt for the photo?

rudy.

[nyjetsfan14]

Against my better judgement I will play. I have absolutely no agenda but to lend a helping hand however I feel this is entirely a no win situation for me. While people like Mr. Kinunen (not a personal attack because I do not know him or know about him - rather an indictment on how most collectors see supposed auction houses/authenticators with their inflated reputations) make money hand over foot for their "in depth" and "professional" analysis I will most certainly be chastised by those with an agenda in regards to this topic. But here it goes:

When looking at the bundle of Rawlings Jets dureens that have surfaced over the last year (and there have been well over a handful to surface) I feel it behooves us to initially look at the whole rather than the individual pieces. The first ones I saw popped up on e-Bay about a year or so ago. They were listed as game worn Jets dureens of early 70's Jets players, one of which was Burgess Owens. I believe there were three, none had NOB's and none showed any wear/usage. If you look closely at all the Jets Topps Vault negatives on e-Bay over the past year (or most any other resource depicting early AFL Jets) you can clearly see that even most non star players dureens show multiple repairs and considerable use. This stands to reason as players were usually issued just one dureen jersey. Matt Snell had a dureen jersey (a Sand Knit manufactured jersey) for 2 or 3 seasons that ended up with a fellow collector/friend. Also, another interesting point was that all 3 of the Rawlings Jets dureens were the same size which, if I recall correctly, was size 40.

Then I saw a couple more of the Rawlings Jets dureens offered on a dealers website. Again, no NOB's (the only time I have seen supposed Jets gamers with no NOB's which raises a red flag), no wear/usage, only this time they were described as mid 60's Jets players. Now we have supposed game worn Rawlings Jets dureens from the early 70's and now also the early AFL days? We know that Rawlings was never an "official" supplier of the Jets (typically Sand Knit supplied dureens and Champion the mesh) so while maybe we can't rule out an odd Rawlings piece somehow slipping in the Jets inventory it seems highly unlikely that so many would surface and supposedly covering different eras which the Jets number font traits changed.

As it pertains to early/mid 60's Jets dureens one would be very hard pressed (my polite way of saying absolutely no way) to find a #1 font that matches the style of the 17 jersey. That #1 font didn't come into play for the Jets until the late 60's/early 70's mesh. I have literally 100's of Jets AFL resources/pictures/videos and not once can I find any player wearing a dureen with that style of 1 font until the Jets later changed font styles in the late 60's/early 70's (the length, style, and angle of the top left on the 1). Yet the 17 jersey is claimed to be of a player who played in the mid 60's. I just don't see it.

Next we have the Namath Rawlings dureen that surfaced on e-Bay a month or so ago. Again, a size 40 I believe with all crudely screened on identifiers. This was obviously a blank Rawlings dureen that had the Namath number and name screened on at a later time. Everyone should know that the Jets dureens of the era consistently had sewn on identifiers and never screened. This is another huge hit against Rawlings dureens being actual gamers.

To recap we have a group of similar jerseys popping up at the same time showing identifier traits similar to early 70's Jets even though some are claimed to be from early/mid 60's. All approximately the same size (40-44). Most having no NOB's and showing zero wear (well, until somebody reads this and heads to the backyard). Some having seen some very weird changes in their life (i.e. the Namath being poorly screened and possibly the Howland having a nameplate removal which instantly becomes a vintage AFL game worn Mike Taliaferro? BTW does anyone know of a Howland ever on the Jets roster?). In fact, the Rawlings examples do not match several traits/characteristics to be expected of a Jets AFL jersey.

So what could they be? MEARS says it is a gamer in part because they only see a handful of Jets dureens on the internet (excluding these Rawlings I guess) but those are not enough to rule out a Rawlings. I have a Sand Knit dureen in my collection (a very common player) with multiple repairs. I have a couple early 70's Champion mesh in my collection (common players). I have a friend who owns several Jets dureens of star and common players (Sand Knits) all of which exhibit repairs/use. A couple were auctioned by Leland’s a couple years ago (again Sand Knits). So there are many more examples out there. And lastly I own an early 80's Champion dureen! What is odd/special about my early 80's Jets champion dureen? Champion did not supply dureens for the Jets during that time, that was exclusively Sand-Knit. My dureen has no NOB. It is a salesman sample as prospective suppliers were always vying for contracts. The Jets did not bite and Sand Knit remained the dureen supplier for the Jets. If I put a NOB to correspond with the jersey number on my salesman sample does that make it a gamer? It is my personal opinion (and no I am not a paid authenticator and this is strictly my personal opinion) that Rawlings produced a batch of Jets dureens in the early 70's (making these, in my opinion, salesman samples) to present to the club to try and become a supplier. In time some of them have probably had NOB’s added then removed or changed which we can clearly see in this thread. Some had even worse alterations in the case of the Namath with the poor screening.

I also feel that when an auction house or an individual seller is representing these items as 100% authentic and selling them for thousands that they have a responsibility to do more than just find a few flippant reasons why a piece might be real. Here are some of the reasons MEARS pointed to in their authentication:

1. They looked on the internet
2. It was a common player
3. #17 was a number issued to a Jets player in a span of 6 years (are you kidding me?)
4. The Bears had two jersey suppliers
5. A Chiefs player wore a Rawlings jersey

This is the research we pay so heavily for? There are a couple longtime Jets collectors out there who have seen just about everything Jets, have handled some of the most vintage of Jets items to surface, and have had some contact with and knowledge of Bill and Clay Hampton who could provide some really reliable insight...I just don’t think that because a hockey guy had one for sale, a nameplate was mysteriously removed, and MEARS slaps down an LOA automatically makes these inconsistent examples legit gamers.

This is directly to cohibasmoker: This is all research you (or any auction house/authenticator) could have done on your own but you again used me in an attempt to quickly flip your jersey. You continually sent my private and personal correspondence to your prospective buyers and other collectors when in fact I specifically indicated that I did not want you using my opinions/thoughts in the soliciting of your items. My research was a personal favor to you, even after you were dishonest in a previous transaction, and not meant to be shared and/or excerpted. Also, my correspondence went out of the way to be humble, polite, and cordial giving you the benefit of the doubt and not trying to be deflating following the acquisition of your jersey. I am in no way an authenticator or consider myself an expert in any matter pertaining to this hobby and my opinions are just that: personal opinions that could be right or could be wrong. I am simply a long time Jets fan and collector who likes to share ideas with other Jets collectors. I will no longer be fielding questions from you in reference to Jets items or any other matters and I will no longer be addressing any of your comments here. I hope all this verbiage is professional enough for you to comprehend.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1969-Topps-Orig-Color-Negative-Dennis-Stuewe-JETS_W0QQitemZ200251413256QQihZ010QQcategoryZ50129 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp16 38Q2em118Q2el1247


http://cgi.ebay.com/1968-Topps-Orig-Color-Negative-Jerry-Richardson-JETS_W0QQitemZ190255744253QQihZ009QQcategoryZ50129 QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp16 38Q2em118Q2el1247

[cohibasmoker]

Matt, I feel that I need to set the record straight as to some of the statements you made about me in your thread.

-First, after I got the Huarte jersey, the issue of whether or not Rawlings supplied jersey to the NY Jets in the mid-1960's arose. As part of my research, I sent out scans and info via email to a number of collectors to get their opinions. Some of those individuals are members of this forum. As I was compiling my information, I did not keep it to myself. I took the time to forward any additional information to everyone that was in the loop. When I forwarded the emails, they were sent unedited and in their entirety.

With that said, you seem to think that I used one of your emails to try and sell the jersey to someone. If you can produce any correspondence that I sent to anyone where I was trying to sell the Huarte and I used your email EXCLUSIVELY as a form of authentication, I WILL GIVE YOU $100.00 dollars. All you need to do is post the ENTIRE email and we’ll let forum members decide if I ever did such a thing.

-Second, on 7/7/08@1122PM, you sent me an email and for the first time, you stated that you did not want your emails shared with anyone. If you can produce any of your emails that I sent to anyone after that date, I give you permission to post those emails also.

You wrote, “personal opinions that could be right or could be wrong”.This is absolutely true. But, let me ask you THREE simple questions:

First, it seems from your post that there are equal amounts of Jets jerseys on the market that were made by both Sand-knit and Rawlings. So why isn’t it conceivable that both suppliers did supply jerseys for the Jets?

Two: You wrote that Matt Snell wore a jersey for 2 or 3 seasons. In the mid-1960’s, I’ve read that, all of the teams in the AFL, including the Jets were struggling financially. With that said, are you going to tell me that if Rawlings or some other manufacturer gave the Jets a set of jerseys during this time, they wouldn’t use them?

Three: You wrote the following, “We know that Rawlings was never an "official" supplier of the Jets”,just how do you know this is a 100% accurate statement?

Jim

[wjonesIII]

You wrote, “personal opinions that could be right or could be wrong”.This is absolutely true. But, let me ask you THREE simple questions:

First, it seems from your post that there are equal amounts of Jets jerseys on the market that were made by both Sand-knit and Rawlings. So why isn’t it conceivable that both suppliers did supply jerseys for the Jets?

Two: You wrote that Matt Snell wore a jersey for 2 or 3 seasons. In the mid-1960’s, I’ve read that, all of the teams in the AFL, including the Jets were struggling financially. With that said, are you going to tell me that if Rawlings or some other manufacturer gave the Jets a set of jerseys during this time, they wouldn’t use them?

Three: You wrote the following, “We know that Rawlings was never an "official" supplier of the Jets”,just how do you know this is a 100% accurate statement?

Jim[/QUOTE]

I would also like to know the answers to those questions. These must also be many Jets players from those teams still alive. Surely one of them would know if they ever wore a Rawlings made jersey.

This appears to possibly be a case where the NY Jets jersey collector is making assumptions, rather than arguing with facts--see:

Three: You wrote the following, “We know that Rawlings was never an "official" supplier of the Jets”,just how do you know this is a 100% accurate statement?

Has it ever been proven the Jets did not wear Rawlings?

And why was the nameplate removed?

[cohibasmoker]

You wrote, “personal opinions that could be right or could be wrong”.This is absolutely true. But, let me ask you THREE simple questions:

First, it seems from your post that there are equal amounts of Jets jerseys on the market that were made by both Sand-knit and Rawlings. So why isn’t it conceivable that both suppliers did supply jerseys for the Jets?

Two: You wrote that Matt Snell wore a jersey for 2 or 3 seasons. In the mid-1960’s, I’ve read that, all of the teams in the AFL, including the Jets were struggling financially. With that said, are you going to tell me that if Rawlings or some other manufacturer gave the Jets a set of jerseys during this time, they wouldn’t use them?

Three: You wrote the following, “We know that Rawlings was never an "official" supplier of the Jets”,just how do you know this is a 100% accurate statement?

Jim

I would also like to know the answers to those questions. These must also be many Jets players from those teams still alive. Surely one of them would know if they ever wore a Rawlings made jersey.

This appears to possibly be a case where the NY Jets jersey collector is making assumptions, rather than arguing with facts--see:

Three: You wrote the following, “We know that Rawlings was never an "official" supplier of the Jets”,just how do you know this is a 100% accurate statement?

Has it ever been proven the Jets did not wear Rawlings?

And why was the nameplate removed?[/quote]

It would be interesting to see if Matt answers our questions.

[nyjetsfan14]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Joe-Willie-Namath-game-issued-New-York-Jets-jersey_W0QQitemZ170315099896QQihZ007QQcategoryZ501 18QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

From the item description: "No alterations, this is the real thing." :eek:

[gridman80]

I've been going to Jets games for 40 years...season ticket holder for 30 and uniform collector for 28 years. To net this out, all the 'evidence' supporting Rawlings as having supplied the Jets is circumstantial or based on convoluted logic, e.g, "Rawlings supplied other AFL teams so why not the Jets". Many of these arguments come under the heading of wishful thinking or 'Damn, I couldn't have been burned on this piece' in my humble opinion.
I think it's prudent to lay down hundreds or sometimes several thousands for these pieces based only on hard evidence rather than emotion. I try not to convince myself that a piece is good...been burned too often doing that....
On the other hand, the evidence supporting MacGregor and SandKnit is factual and indisputable, as I own examples that I have obtained directly from the players or their families over the years. I would not lay down a dollar for a Rawlings piece unless I had direct photographic or player/equipment mgr evidence of its provenance. If you have such evidence, please show me that I am wrong as I completely open minded.
Hope this helps the discusssion...I don't want to see anyone burned on a piece....sharing factual knowledge among collectors helps all....speculative arguments can lead to wasted money and hurt feelings...

[nyjetsfan14]

The Namath piece resurfacing should be the final nail in the coffin here. The Jets never screened identifiers on their dureens during that era so this lends to the possible early 70's salesman sample theory as maybe Rawlings was trying to provide an example of what screened dureens would be like in comparison to the sewn dureens? Obviously the screened Rawlings Namath size 40 is in no way a team issued piece. In case somebody was interested in my font synopisis here are some photos (picked from many). The first two (Don Maynard and Mike Taliaferro) are the types of #1 fonts that can be found on Jets dureen jerseys of the AFL era. The third (Matt Snell) is the type of #1 font used by the Jets on their screened mesh starting around/after the merger. You can compare to the personalized Howland piece shown earlier in this thread, that had the NOB removed than subsequently authenticated/sold as a Talieferro gamer, and see that the Howland #1 matches that of the early 70's Jets mesh - the slant angle of the top of the 1. I too hope this discussion has been of value to fellow collectors, paid authenticators, and even our banned member Mr. WJones III. As always, happy collecting to all.