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101password
06-24-2008, 02:01 PM
I'm a little new to game used jersey's. Was interested in anyone's comments on a Sid Luckman used jersey on ebay
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200234067133&ssPageName=STRK:MEBI:IT&ih=010

Looks like the seller forgot about the jersey and just wants to sell it.
Thanks Barry

nyjetsfan14
06-24-2008, 02:15 PM
I am not a Bears expert but if that actually is the real deal, which it looks to be, then WOW - what a great piece of NFL history! I'd be interested in hearing from any resident Bears experts about this jersey and what the estimated value on this baby might be. The seller doesn't have it listed in the game used category so that might hurt a little bit. Thanks for pointing it out and happy collecting.

both-teams-played-hard
06-24-2008, 02:31 PM
I agree. I am sure this shirt is the real deal. It has now been outed on this forum. It has a weak listing, minus many keywords.
Wonder how many offers to end early this seller will receive today? The auction houses are scrambling! Save the pictures folks...this may end early and be in a glossy catalog for a fall auction. Might be a $10,000 item. Thanks for posting...I would have never seen this item!

nyjetsfan14
06-24-2008, 02:46 PM
I agree. I am sure this shirt is the real deal. It has now been outed on this forum. It has a weak listing, minus many keywords.
Wonder how many offers to end early this seller will receive today? The auction houses are scrambling! Save the pictures folks...this may end early and be in a glossy catalog for a fall auction. Might be a $10,000 item. Thanks for posting...I would have never seen this item!

Great call! I too would have never seen this jersey and feel it has a very high likelihood of ending up on an AMI girl in the near future. This may sound really stupid so please forgive my ignorance in advance...but does anybody know if auction house reps frequent/read this site at all for these types of reasons?

both-teams-played-hard
06-24-2008, 03:29 PM
EBay auctions often end up in glossy catalogs. There are numerous examples. No way of knowing about auction house employees and their trolling habits, but without a doubt, auction house consignors troll eBay and maybe this forum.
Cliff Hagan hoop jersey, Robisch Laker jersey, etc.,etc. These are recent examples off the top of my head.
There is nothing wrong with finding a good deal and turning a profit.

both-teams-played-hard
06-24-2008, 06:31 PM
$75 to $910 in just a few hours...

javabob123
06-24-2008, 07:05 PM
Well, I'm the guy with the jersey and I really (obviously) had no idea what was hanging in my closet.

I have multiple offers. I'm a little stunned.

Can anyone suggest a source for authentification?

Could a jersy like this be worth over 20k? With freaking paint specs on it?

Thanks.

both-teams-played-hard
06-24-2008, 07:12 PM
Well, I'm the guy with the jersey and I really (obviously) had no idea what was hanging in my closet.

I have multiple offers. I'm a little stunned.

Can anyone suggest a source for authentification?

Could a jersy like this be worth over 20k? With freaking paint specs on it?

Thanks.
Collectors want signs of wear. Any rips or tears that appear to be sewn and repaired? Add it to the game used category-NFL-football and maybe pay the extra 19.99 for the featured plus option on eBay.

nyjetsfan14
06-24-2008, 07:24 PM
Could a jersy like this be worth over 20k? With freaking paint specs on it?

LOL, gotta love this country! You indeed appear to have something pretty valuable on your hands so be diligent and all the best in selling it.

otismalibu
06-24-2008, 07:30 PM
Could a jersey like this be worth over 20k? With freaking paint specs on it?

Those paint specs add character...and value.

Think Lewinsky dress.

Vintagedeputy
06-24-2008, 08:30 PM
java - I am beyond amazed that you had this item hanging in your closet and had no idea about its value! You are a lucky, lucky man. Things like that are near impossible to find.

Congrats!

Jim

jwasserman
06-24-2008, 08:46 PM
Luckman is also jewish and jewish collectors pony up big $$$ for vintage jerseys. I'd relist with 'jewish' and 'chicago bears' somewhere in the title listing.

SkubeBats
06-24-2008, 09:12 PM
Dave Bushing is the high bidder. Good luck to the rest of you!!
Thanks,
Jamie

gwh11
06-24-2008, 09:56 PM
Javabob123,
I would argue that you will literally lose thousands of dollars by selling this on eBay. A higher-end auction house would bring more exposure and reach many more potential bidders. I'm sure many of us could give you helpful ideas on where to consign the jersey.
Guy

both-teams-played-hard
06-24-2008, 10:38 PM
Dave Bushing is the high bidder. Good luck to the rest of you!!
Thanks,
Jamie
How do you know this for sure?

javabob123
06-25-2008, 12:44 AM
Greetings:

Jamie: What's the significance of Dave Bushing? Curious.

I'm open to suggestions, but $10,000 is on the board after one day...how much can an auction site really bring in (after commission)?

Thanks,

Java

both-teams-played-hard
06-25-2008, 12:45 AM
$10,000 with nine days left. Starting bid was $15. I bet Luckman never made 10 grand for a full season with the Bears.

josports
06-25-2008, 01:35 AM
Java you are correct 10k in the first day is a great start on the jersey. Dave Bushing is a vintage sports dealer.

You will have alot of interest in the jersey as you should. I will be watching the jersey close with interest. If you want to talk more about this particular jersey and my thoughts you can email me:
officialjosportsinc@hotmail.com

Jarrod

34swtns
06-25-2008, 06:52 AM
Next to a Halas jersey..................
it just doesn't get any better than this.

Easily the most amazing and historically significant jersey this Bears collector has EVER seen. Good luck with the sale, javabob!

aeneas01
06-25-2008, 06:57 AM
Greetings:

Jamie: What's the significance of Dave Bushing? Curious.

I'm open to suggestions, but $10,000 is on the board after one day...how much can an auction site really bring in (after commission)?

Thanks,

Java

dave bushing is a sports memorabilia collector and dealer - i think the post that referenced bushing was meant to be taken as an alert that your jersey has come to the attention of those (including bushing) that make a living purchasing and selling rare, vintage sports items - those that are well versed in spending significant sums for special items. bushing is also a sports memorabilia authenticator so if he is indeed bidding on your item i would assume it implies that he believes that it's the real deal and is well aware of its potential value on the open market.

for more on bushing and the folks he works with (known as mears), you can check out this link to their website store.

http://www.mearsonline.com/forsale/


as far as your jersey is concerned, it looks like a real find to me but i am by no means an expert when it comes to vintage jerseys. nonetheless, i did not find anything on the net that would appear to rule out your jersey belonging to luckman - quite to the contrary in fact. one thing i did find very interesting is that it appears luckman was the only chicago bears player to have ever been issued the number 42. if this is true, which the bears' alltime roster seems to support, then it would appear that your jersey could have only belonged to luckman - in other words, it can't be argued that perhaps it's a game used jersey that was issued to and worn by another player after luckman had retired. imo this is significant.


here's a vintage college all-star jersey, circa mid 40s, that sports the same "may & halas" tag as yours.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/lf.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/jlf.jpg


here's a photo of a vintage bears jersey, said to be circa late 40s despite early 40s font, that also sports the same "mays & halas" tag as yours - it sold for $5,500 in february at auction. it was described as most likely belonging to hank norberg and/or ed cody. needless to say, these players don't even begin to enter the conversation when discussing a player like luckman who was one of the greatest players in nfl history and is an nfl hall of famer.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/hhy.png



here's a photo of one of luckman's jersey hanging in the hall of fame - i'm sure the hall would love to get their hands on your jersey...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/luckman_sid1.jpg


here are a few photos of luckman....

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/sl2.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/sl1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/5146919aeneas01625200810848AM.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/6717811aeneas01625200811809AM.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/halas550water.jpg



as i mentioned before, it seems to me that you have a real winner on your hands - as far as i can tell the only scenario that could undermine the authenticity of your jersey is if a jersey expert can demonstrate that this exact style of jersey, including the tags, was also known to have been used by high school and/or college teams during that era. i only mention this because this is often the case when it comes to vintage football helmets from this period - for example, many of the early riddell rt helmets that the pros wore were also worn by college and high school teams - exact same color schemes, exact same models.

but i'm pulling for you - i hope your jersey proves to be the real deal and that it brings a record amount at auction! your story is just another example of why collecting sports memorabilia is such great fun!

...

javabob123
06-25-2008, 09:18 AM
First of all, thanks to everyone who has provided support and information. I'm really blown away by your community.

Needless to say, my head is spinning. At 10:45 Sunday night, I decided to finally sell this old jersey. Less than two days later, I've been contacted by collectors, people indicating they represent the Bears, people indicating they represent the Hall of Fame...about 120 e-mails over all.

It seems to me that the advice I recieved earlier is starting to make sense (I have already been offered 27,500) and I am giving strong consideration to pulling it, getting it authenticated and taking it to an appropriate auction house.

My concern: Is this a Barry Bonds baseball? That's an overstatement I know, but let's face it, the action on this thing is out of control.

Another alternative: Get it evaluated in Las Vegas or LA (does anyone know a reputable dealer) and let it ride. After all, the e-bay commission is low and the big players would seem to be at the table already. I'm sure the big auction houses send 1099's. Does e-bay?

Thanks again everyone. You guys are awesome.

34swtns
06-25-2008, 04:35 PM
Aaaaaannnd, it's gone.

Wise move, java. An ebay listing is such an undignified way for one of the most legendary jerseys in NFL history to change hands......that thing needs to be celebrated and offered up in grand fashion.

Thanks for joining us on our humble forum and please let us know what you decide to do with it as I'm sure several members here would still like a chance at owning it.

aeneas01
06-25-2008, 04:53 PM
i noticed that you ended your ebay auction - imo that was a smart move.

so what are your plans? before paying for the services of a "professional authenticator" i would suggest that you contact the chicago bears directly to see if there is someone within their organization that can speak authoritatively about your jersey. perhaps track someone down within the bears' organization that can actually compare, physically, your jersey with one they have archived. if you can swing this, and get the bears to issue a letter of authenticity on team letterhead, i think such documentation would dwarf anything a "pro" authenticator could provide and would certainly further enhance the value of your item. no doubt it would be worth the cost of a flight to chicago.

as far as the bonds thing is concerned, it sounds like you are worried that if you don't jump on a big offer something could surface to queer the deal. it also seems that you are worried about tax implications.

imo your jersey is nothing like the bonds sitch and patience on your part will only increase the amount you will eventually realize on the sale. contact the bears, get them to issue you a team letter and then list your jersey with a reputable sports memorabilia auction house after negotiating a reduced commission cut - keep in mind that your jersey will bring a tremendous amount of publicity and prestige to the house that lists it.

as far as taxes are concerned, i would recommend that you get used to the idea that you will owe capital gain taxes on the transaction. speak with a good tax accountant, pay the tax bill, and enjoy your profit without having to look over your shoulder for the rest of your life. ebay may not report such a sale to the irs but it would likely surface if you ever get audited down the road - penalties and interest, not to mention that not reporting it would most likely smack of tax evasion, is something i'm sure you will not like facing down the road. on the up side you will probably, and legally, be able to circumvent sales tax if the jersey is sold in a state where you do not reside.

keep us posted.


...

nyjetsfan14
06-25-2008, 05:50 PM
I am undoubtedly in the minority on this one but to me (meaning this is strictly my personal opinion) it would be an absolute shame to see this type of piece pimped by an auction house (and filling their pockets with exoberant buyer/seller fees) only to find it's way into a persons private collection. A piece like this should be on display in the HOF or with the Bears for fans young and old to enjoy. Hopefully you can do that and maximize your profit at the same time. Either way, thanks for sharing and all the best in your endeavors with the jersey.

ndevlin
06-25-2008, 08:17 PM
I have a feeling this will be bought....authenticated...and resold again.

treant985
06-25-2008, 08:47 PM
...as far as taxes are concerned, i would recommend that you get used to the idea that you will owe capital gain taxes on the transaction....

A sidenote...would he only have to pay capital gains on the $$ from selling it? Seems like it'd just be straight up income since it's not an investment, thus taxed at a higher rate than CG.

javabob123
06-26-2008, 10:02 AM
Again...great feedback and advice.

One thing for sure...I am going to slow this whole process down and proceed carefully.

A couple of auction houses have been all over it and private offers have hit 40K from people that I'm sure you all know. I've been in the "business" for two days and I already know a number of the major players...thanks to you guys.

So, I'll probably talk to the Bears - a dealer who claims to represent them has contacted me, but I'll go direct. Then, I'll make my best deal with one of the major auction houses. Then, I'll probably get hooked on this action!

Thanks again and I'll keep you posted.

One more thing - How big is the American Memorabelia Football Show - September 18 in Vegas?

rjtwh@yahoo.com if you need to say something off the board.

otismalibu
06-26-2008, 11:51 AM
I've been in the "business" for two days and I already know a number of the major players...thanks to you guys.

Just search those names on this site and you'll have even more information on which to base your decision. In case you already haven't done so :)

ChrisCavalier
06-26-2008, 12:17 PM
Hello javabob,

I sent you an email directly. Please let me know if you received it.

aeneas01
06-26-2008, 05:20 PM
A sidenote...would he only have to pay capital gains on the $$ from selling it? Seems like it'd just be straight up income since it's not an investment, thus taxed at a higher rate than CG.

if the seller was engaged in the business of buying and selling items (think the mears store, an antique dealer, power ebayers, etc.) then his profit on the sale of the jersey would be treated as, as you say, "straight up income". but if the seller is someone that wants to simply sell an item that has been in his possession for a long time due to an inheritance, a gift, a past purchase, a discovery, etc. then the profit would be treated as a capital gain - most likely a long-term capital gain. the trick will be establishing a fmv. at least that's my understanding...

javabob123:

here are some big-buck game-used jerseys that have sold at auction during the past few years - imo none are as significant (read valuable) as your jersey...

jim brown - $70,000

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/05-3.jpg

johnny unitas - $59,000

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/02-4.png

ray nitsche - $39,000

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/01-6.jpg

johnny unitas - $37,000

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/03-4.jpg

johnny unitas - $20,000

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/02-4.png

ironmanfan
06-26-2008, 06:01 PM
On a somewhat related note, Lenny Moore himself has consigned an early 1960's GU Baltimore Colts jersey to Ironclad Authentics "Legends" Auction in late July...

gridman80
06-26-2008, 07:21 PM
javabob, A very good friend of mine is the foremost collector of NFL QB jerseys in the world. He is missing only 2 QB's, one of whom is Luckman. He is very discreet and does not buy from the auctions....I suggest you try to avoid the auction houses and sell directly to a collector such as my buddy. I can call him and let him know about this, if he does not already (thru one of the dealers looking to make a big buck off him by brokering this piece). If he is interested, then I would simply pass along his phone number to you so that you could deal directly with him....LMK ..thanks and good luck with your piece!

javabob123
06-30-2008, 09:09 AM
I appreciate your feedback, but I can't imagine why I would want to avoid a reputable auction house that is willing (by contract) to pay a large advance, earn a modest commission and be willing to pay the proceeds within 5 business days. The jersey will be exposed to the maximum number of bidders and quite honestly, would be quite entertaining.

Then again, I might just put it on display in my den, behind the bar.

Nah.

bigtruck260
06-30-2008, 09:37 AM
Then again, I might just put it on display in my den, behind the bar.

Nah.

Here is a GREAT idea. I'm certain that nobody has thought of this one.
Cut the jersey into 1x1 inch squares and stick them onto Sid Luckman football cards. Hand number them to 100 and sell them for $2000 each.

Sell the pieces with white paint on them as "2 color patches" and watch the bidding wars begin. ;)

nyjetsfan14
06-30-2008, 03:51 PM
Then again, I might just put it on display in my den, behind the bar. Nah.

LMAO

cards-bats
06-30-2008, 04:13 PM
Why not buy a Brain Urlacher pro-cut jersey, cut it up into 2,000 pieces, place them on Sid Luckman cards, hang your Sid Luckman jersey behind the bar, cash your check and call it good?

bigtruck260
06-30-2008, 06:46 PM
Why not buy a Brain Urlacher pro-cut jersey, cut it up into 2,000 pieces, place them on Sid Luckman cards, hang your Sid Luckman jersey behind the bar, cash your check and call it good?

Even better. I am envoius.:D

34swtns
07-01-2008, 06:37 AM
Since javabob isn't familiar with this "business" it might be a good idea to let him know that you aren't making fun of him with your jokes.

They were simply citing examples of similar things that have actually been done, java.

Eric
07-01-2008, 06:53 AM
http://cgi.ebay.com/SID-LUCKMAN-JUMBO-JERSEY-PATCH-NATIONAL-TREASURES-1-1_W0QQitemZ250261735119QQihZ015QQcategoryZ149911QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

34swtns
07-01-2008, 03:45 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/SID-LUCKMAN-JUMBO-JERSEY-PATCH-NATIONAL-TREASURES-1-1_W0QQitemZ250261735119QQihZ015QQcategoryZ149911QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What a shame.

Nathan
07-01-2008, 11:40 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com/SID-LUCKMAN-JUMBO-JERSEY-PATCH-NATIONAL-TREASURES-1-1_W0QQitemZ250261735119QQihZ015QQcategoryZ149911QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And it's from an Ohio State fan....I hereby vow to hate Ohio State with every ounce of my being from here into the indefinite future!

Oh wait, I already do.;) And I live in central Ohio!

NFLJerseyCollector
07-03-2008, 08:26 AM
Hello Javabob123,

You are 1 very lucky person having a jersey like that 1.

I know its hard to resist when every1 and auction houses too are offering $$$ for the jersey.
I look at it this way, why let some1 else have the pleasure of having it in their private collection, where it will only be viewd by their family, friends and any1 that swing by their place.

Your Jersey is Truly a piece of History.
Its should be in the Hall Of Fame, so every1 could view it.

mvandor
07-04-2008, 09:17 AM
Hello Javabob123,

You are 1 very lucky person having a jersey like that 1.

I know its hard to resist when every1 and auction houses too are offering $$$ for the jersey.
I look at it this way, why let some1 else have the pleasure of having it in their private collection, where it will only be viewd by their family, friends and any1 that swing by their place.

Your Jersey is Truly a piece of History.
Its should be in the Hall Of Fame, so every1 could view it.

From the pic earlier in this thread it looks like the Hall already has one nearly identical to this jersey - without the paint spots. :D

karamaxjoe
07-23-2008, 08:04 PM
I just received an email from American Memorabilia:

American Memorabilia is proud to announce the upcoming auction offering: 1946-47 Sid Luckman game-worn jersey -- undoubtedly one of the finest Hall of Fame quarterback jerseys ever. Luckman could be considered the father of the pass. To our knowledge this is the first Luckman game worn jersey ever offered.
The Luckman jersey will be on display at the National in Chicago next week as will other September features. We will be accepting high end consignments for our upcoming auctions at the National. Bring us your best as the September auction is already filling up with many museum quality items.
American Memorabilia will be at booths 1017, 1019, 1116 and 1118 at this year&rsquo,s preeminent convention. The show runs July 30- Aug. 3 at the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont.
To set up an appointment with Victor *or* Kieta please call their toll free cell phone 866-411-7575.

Best Wishes,
AMI Staff

AMI is not exactly the company I'd choose for this jersey, but I guess they presented the best deal.

lund6771
07-23-2008, 09:58 PM
I just received an email from American Memorabilia:

American Memorabilia is proud to announce the upcoming auction offering: 1946-47 Sid Luckman game-worn jersey -- undoubtedly one of the finest Hall of Fame quarterback jerseys ever. Luckman could be considered the father of the pass. To our knowledge this is the first Luckman game worn jersey ever offered.
The Luckman jersey will be on display at the National in Chicago next week as will other September features. We will be accepting high end consignments for our upcoming auctions at the National. Bring us your best as the September auction is already filling up with many museum quality items.
American Memorabilia will be at booths 1017, 1019, 1116 and 1118 at this year&rsquo,s preeminent convention. The show runs July 30- Aug. 3 at the Donald E. Stephens Convention Center in Rosemont.
To set up an appointment with Victor *or* Kieta please call their toll free cell phone 866-411-7575.

Best Wishes,
AMI Staff

AMI is not exactly the company I'd choose for this jersey, but I guess they presented the best deal.


Uh-Oh!!!!

trsent
08-21-2008, 01:15 PM
Just curious, I was talking about this jersey with an associate, and he told me that he has been told that the Sid Luckman jersey is real, game used and worn by Sid Luckman but that the jersey has a team number change and it may not be all original.

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

lund6771
08-21-2008, 11:08 PM
Just curious, I was talking about this jersey with an associate, and he told me that he has been told that the Sid Luckman jersey is real, game used and worn by Sid Luckman but that the jersey has a team number change and it may not be all original.

Has anyone else heard anything about this?

I saw this jersey at the National and it is absolutely beautiful and so well preserved...it has to be one of the best football jerseys ever auctioned/sold...

I bet it goes huge!!!!

trsent
08-21-2008, 11:43 PM
I saw this jersey at the National and it is absolutely beautiful and so well preserved...it has to be one of the best football jerseys ever auctioned/sold...

I bet it goes huge!!!!

That is great, but did you notice if there was a number change as I was told there was on this jersey? No one has publicly disclosed this information anywhere yet and I assume it is something that should be disclosed sometime, somewhere.

lund6771
08-22-2008, 12:03 AM
That is great, but did you notice if there was a number change as I was told there was on this jersey? No one has publicly disclosed this information anywhere yet and I assume it is something that should be disclosed sometime, somewhere.

I did not notice anything

both-teams-played-hard
08-22-2008, 12:33 AM
There are a few white specs on the*jersey and my*Dad asked Sid what that was from.* "I painted in it," said Luckman.



http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/254/luckmanpaintzd8.jpg

CollectGU
08-22-2008, 08:50 AM
That is great, but did you notice if there was a number change as I was told there was on this jersey? No one has publicly disclosed this information anywhere yet and I assume it is something that should be disclosed sometime, somewhere.

It was the 1940's and number changes back then were normal to see on a jersey, shoudln't hurt the value or scare away any bidders, especially not with traceable provenance. If one player didn't make the team the jerseys would be recycled to another player and not discarded. What is important is that the number change was vintage and team instituted, and that the jersey with it's changed numbers was then used by that player during the referenced period. I'm sure any info. on the jersey will be disclosed at auction.

Regards,
Dave

trsent
08-22-2008, 09:22 AM
It was the 1940's and number changes back then were normal to see on a jersey, shoudln't hurt the value or scare away any bidders, especially not with traceable provenance. If one player didn't make the team the jerseys would be recycled to another player and not discarded. What is important is that the number change was vintage and team instituted, and that the jersey with it's changed numbers was then used by that player during the referenced period. I'm sure any info. on the jersey will be disclosed at auction.

Regards,
Dave

Dave, I understand it was a common practice, I just have not seen or heard anyone stating that this jersey appears to have a number change. This is something that should be disclosed to any potential bidders, right?

trsent
08-22-2008, 10:00 AM
It was the 1940's and number changes back then were normal to see on a jersey, shoudln't hurt the value or scare away any bidders, especially not with traceable provenance. If one player didn't make the team the jerseys would be recycled to another player and not discarded. What is important is that the number change was vintage and team instituted, and that the jersey with it's changed numbers was then used by that player during the referenced period. I'm sure any info. on the jersey will be disclosed at auction.

Regards,
Dave

Dave, I just had a discussion with an associate and this jersey was brought up in discussion. I asked him about number changes for vintage jerseys of this nature. He gave me some interesting comments which I took notes from.

It was normal back then for jerseys to have number changes, but it still does affect the value tremendously. From his discussions with people in the hobby about this jersey since he saw it listed on eBay, he determined that an original Sid Luckman jersey should bring $50,000 through $75,000 at a major auction house. He then determined that such a jersey with a number change may only be worth $10,000 through $20,000.

When the seller on eBay was offered $27,500 or so, he had not disclosed a number change from all I can tell. I think my friend's guess for what a jersey is worth from this era with a number change may be on the low side, but at the same time this information needs to be disclosed as it does affect the value of the jersey.

trsent
08-22-2008, 11:39 AM
Since I have been told in private email that I was trying to discredit the Sid Luckman jersey - I thought it best to post here that is not the case.

I was stating a fact that has not been mentioned to date. I understand the original eBay seller may not know what a number change is, but before we get all hyped, thinking this is a $100,000 jersey, it should be brought to the public's attention that this jersey has a legitimate number change which will affect the value.

lund6771
08-22-2008, 12:13 PM
Since I have been told in private email that I was trying to discredit the Sid Luckman jersey - I thought it best to post here that is not the case.

I was stating a fact that has not been mentioned to date. I understand the original eBay seller may not know what a number change is, but before we get all hyped, thinking this is a $100,000 jersey, it should be brought to the public's attention that this jersey has a legitimate number change which will affect the value.

Joel, why even bring this up until the auction catalogue comes out?

I'd see how it is described by AMI and then I'd start talking about disclosures...

to me it also seems like your trying to discredit the piece, but that's just the way I'm reading it

anyways...have you seen it for yourself?

Have a good weekend!!!

CollectGU
08-22-2008, 01:09 PM
I was stating a fact that has not been mentioned to date. I understand the original eBay seller may not know what a number change is, but before we get all hyped, thinking this is a $100,000 jersey, it should be brought to the public's attention that this jersey has a legitimate number change which will affect the value.

A number change doesn't necessarily affect value when it is institiuted by the team during the time period used, because it makes the numbers original to their use on the field. Number changes that involve restorations to bring the jersey back to it's original on-field state done after the jersey has been retired from field use are very different and do certainly detract from value.

Regards,
Dave

RKGIBSON
08-22-2008, 05:50 PM
Trsent,

Your trying to discredit the jerseys translates into, your raising a legitamate question, is going to cost me money.

In my opinion the only thing that matters here is, was Sid Luckman the last player to wear this jersey in a game as it is now with the number changed to his. If the number was changed prior to him wearing it, is only a part of the history of this jersey. I do not see that as a negative. If the number was changed to Luckman's and he in fact never really wore this jersey is the only issue, and a big one. We are back to the provenace, do you believe it?

Roger
irestorecars@sbcglobal.net

cohibasmoker
08-22-2008, 06:46 PM
Trsent,

Your trying to discredit the jerseys translates into, your raising a legitamate question, is going to cost me money.

In my opinion the only thing that matters here is, was Sid Luckman the last player to wear this jersey in a game as it is now with the number changed to his. If the number was changed prior to him wearing it, is only a part of the history of this jersey. I do not see that as a negative. If the number was changed to Luckman's and he in fact never really wore this jersey is the only issue, and a big one. We are back to the provenace, do you believe it?

Roger
irestorecars@sbcglobal.net



Roger, nice thread.

Jim

trsent
08-22-2008, 11:33 PM
Trsent,

Your trying to discredit the jerseys translates into, your raising a legitamate question, is going to cost me money.

In my opinion the only thing that matters here is, was Sid Luckman the last player to wear this jersey in a game as it is now with the number changed to his. If the number was changed prior to him wearing it, is only a part of the history of this jersey. I do not see that as a negative. If the number was changed to Luckman's and he in fact never really wore this jersey is the only issue, and a big one. We are back to the provenace, do you believe it?

Roger
irestorecars@sbcglobal.net



Who ever said I was trying to discredit this jersey? What you find as not a negative, real customers may consider as a negative.

I was simply stating the facts - that Lou Lampson has made it clear that there was a number change on the jersey.

I have heard rumors that AMI has this jersey, I do not know this for fact. I do not care who owns the jersey, the original auction on eBay was ended early. I believe eBay has a policy against ending a listing early and selling an item elsewhere, but who cares about that issue?

I am costing you money? What are you talking about? Do you own this jersey? If so, where did you buy it since it was not sold on eBay but there was a paid eBay listing for the jersey with no high bidder so if the item was sold through eBay, did eBay get their commissions? Really, I couldn't care less about this, but I assume the seller changed his mind and kept the jersey until you tell me I am now costing you money? I am so confused.

Where did I ever - show me - state Sid Luckman didn't wear this jersey? First comments I made stated Sid Luckman wore the jersey, but that the numbers were changed. This is a fact it now appears - The original owner, who I bet doesn't know what a number change is, didn't disclose such so I pointed this out. It is the truth, right? So what have I done to discredit this jersey expect state a fact that was not stated in the once eBay listing.

If AMI now has the jersey as rumored, good for them. I was stating a fact about a jersey last seen on eBay in an ended auction. I never said the next owner will not disclose this, but I heard it first and I posted on this forum the facts I have found about this item. I was going to bid on it originally, but the listing disappeared so I was shut out.

Why are you shouting at me again?

trsent
08-22-2008, 11:52 PM
Funny thing I meant to mention but forgot because someone posted that I was costing them money...

At the Cubs game today I was sitting next to a memorabilia dealer. When he brought up the Sid Luckman jersey to me he said something that I never thought of. He said if he had such a jersey to consign to an auction house, American Memorabilia would be his first choice since they get the most money for game used vintage football jerseys.

lund6771
08-23-2008, 01:16 AM
[quote=trsent;96291]

I was simply stating the facts - that Lou Lampson has made it clear that there was a number change on the jersey.

quote]


Lampson is a loser and how can what you HEAR be a fact?

Again..have you seen the jersey?...Examined it under a light table?


I have also heard there was a big foot discovery

trsent
08-23-2008, 01:25 AM
[quote=trsent;96291]

I was simply stating the facts - that Lou Lampson has made it clear that there was a number change on the jersey.

quote]


Lampson is a loser and how can what you HEAR be a fact?

Again..have you seen the jersey?...Examined it under a light table?


I have also heard there was a big foot discovery

Sir, please make this a mature discussion or do not comment.

I have asked about a number change in this thread which appears to exist and was not mentioned in the eBay listing. You say Lou Lampson is a loser, I say he knows more about vintage football jerseys than most anyone else in the world, so if he said it, I assume it true.

When you wish to have a reasonable discussion, please post again, otherwise, please do not call names and make arguments that are not mature and adult.

No, I never got to see the jersey listed on eBay because I was deprived of being able to buy it due to what appears to be a sale of an eBay item off eBay which is against eBay rules.

trsent
08-23-2008, 01:39 AM
I am confused what everyone is getting so crazy about over this discussion. I receive emails from a few people and posts on here that are really insane.

I joined this discussion stating that I heard there was a number change on this jersey, one listed and ended without a buyer on eBay, and now I am told that I am trying to sabotage an auction that doesn't even exist. Someone even posted on here that I am costing them money, though I have no clue what that statement meant.

I didn't accuse American Memorabilia of not disclosing any alterations to this jersey, I have no clue who has the jersey but the guy who listed it on eBay. I am not on speaking terms with American Memorabilia these days, after personal issues with how they handled my past consignments I decided it best not to deal with them anymore. Not a big deal, they appear to have a fine auction house. I just found others that I like better.

Finally, the first post I made I stated that this jersey appears to be a legitimate Sid Luckman jersey - I never once stated that the jersey is not legitimate.

I wish people would stop assuming anything expect for the questions I posted.

RKGIBSON
08-23-2008, 08:43 AM
TRSENT,

I was being facetious. I meant, who ever emailed you and said you were discrediting the jersey, they must have a interest in it and thought it was costing them money by raising the issue. I have no interest in the jersey or interest in buying it. IT WAS A JOKE!

Roger

34swtns
08-23-2008, 10:51 AM
Quote.....trsent
"I do not care who owns the jersey, the original auction on eBay was ended early. I believe eBay has a policy against ending a listing early and selling an item elsewhere, but who cares about that issue?"

"No, I never got to see the jersey listed on eBay because I was deprived of being able to buy it due to what appears to be a sale of an eBay item off eBay which is against eBay rules."


Joel, please don't even pretend to go to bat for ebay and it's rules and policies. Believe me, you will be a one-man cheerleading squad in that regard and you'll be doing serious damage to my image of you as one of the more stand-up guys on the forum.
Regarding the ending of the auction, we ALL encouraged that seller to take his item elsewhere in order to liquidate it as ebay was simply not an appropriate outlet for an item of such historical significance. Not to mention the seller would benefit greatly from the increased exposure to the high rollers in this hobby via a higher profile auction scenario.
That is the reason the ebay auction was and should have been ended early.

trsent
08-23-2008, 11:12 AM
TRSENT,

I was being facetious. I meant, who ever emailed you and said you were discrediting the jersey, they must have a interest in it and thought it was costing them money by raising the issue. I have no interest in the jersey or interest in buying it. IT WAS A JOKE!

Roger




Oh, a joke. I do not know how to take a joke. (That is a joke)

Thanks Roger, now I understand. I thought you owned the jersey or something odd like that.

sammy
08-23-2008, 11:19 AM
"He said if he had such a jersey to consign to an auction house, American Memorabilia would be his first choice since they get the most money for game used vintage football jerseys."

Being as AMI doesn't pay their consignors within ANY reasonable timeframe, I hope the owner of this jersey can afford to wait up to 6+ months for payment, or received some written guarantee of prompt payment from AMI, within 30 days from auction end, before turning the jersey over to them.

trsent
08-23-2008, 11:19 AM
Quote.....trsent
"I do not care who owns the jersey, the original auction on eBay was ended early. I believe eBay has a policy against ending a listing early and selling an item elsewhere, but who cares about that issue?"

"No, I never got to see the jersey listed on eBay because I was deprived of being able to buy it due to what appears to be a sale of an eBay item off eBay which is against eBay rules."


Joel, please don't even pretend to go to bat for ebay and it's rules and policies. Believe me, you will be a one-man cheerleading squad in that regard and you'll be doing serious damage to my image of you as one of the more stand-up guys on the forum.
Regarding the ending of the auction, we ALL encouraged that seller to take his item elsewhere in order to liquidate it as ebay was simply not an appropriate outlet for an item of such historical significance. Not to mention the seller would benefit greatly from the increased exposure to the high rollers in this hobby via a higher profile auction scenario.
That is the reason the ebay auction was and should have been ended early.


My only issue is people telling me to wait for the new owner to list the jersey for sale - What new owner? The jersey was not sold on eBay as it was ended early and I never got a chance to bid in a fair listing. I am told to wait for AMI or whoever has possession of the jersey - My comments are all based on an eBay listing - I did not say AMI or the next consignor of this item was hiding anything - I was just stating facts I heard.

trsent
08-23-2008, 11:28 AM
"He said if he had such a jersey to consign to an auction house, American Memorabilia would be his first choice since they get the most money for game used vintage football jerseys."

Being as AMI doesn't pay their consignors within ANY reasonable timeframe, I hope the owner of this jersey can afford to wait up to 6+ months for payment, or received some written guarantee of prompt payment from AMI, within 30 days from auction end, before turning the jersey over to them.

I wanted to say something like what you stated, but I didn't have the guts but this link will help your cause:

http://www.network54.com/Forum/567138/thread/1207348547/last-1212335915/American+Memorabilia

saftey45
08-26-2008, 03:52 PM
Has anyone on this site ever seen the jersey?? It was that the national in chicago and I did take a look at it. I thought it looked liked way to clean to be game worn. I did not notice anything on it, except for the paint. Sleeves/elbows, shoulders were as clean as the day the shirt was produced. I was going to take pictures but It in a glass case and there was way to much reflections from the lights. Anyone else get a look at it let us know... hope that helps it anyone is interested. Mike

platinum1
08-26-2008, 06:00 PM
its finally up
http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=45086

both-teams-played-hard
08-26-2008, 07:16 PM
Why didn't AMI mention that Luckman caused the paint stains himself? It seems the story would add to the provenance.
http://img370.imageshack.us/img370/1186/luckmanamericanawh1.jpg

trsent
08-26-2008, 09:39 PM
Why didn't AMI mention that Luckman caused the paint stains himself? It seems the story would add to the provenance.


There you go again with the PhotoShop work!

From the American Memorabilia listing:

In the course of professional analysis, it was discovered that the jersey had undergone a team-instituted number change. Traces of an original “12” outline in this exact font style can be faintly detected. Part of the reason that such can be determined is that the situating of the numerals ("1" and "2") was oriented differently than "42." It is conclusive that the present "42" was period-instituted, franchise-sanctioned and administered. This is satisfactorily explained in that an aspiring player in 1946, Walt Lamb, didn't make the club in ’47, and his jersey was thereby converted from #12 to #42. According to authenticator Lou Lampson, this was a common practice in the austere “Papa Bear” 1940s and '50s era, and Lamb’s physical bearing (6’ 1”; 195 lbs.) nearly mirrors that of Luckman (6’ 0”; 197 lbs.).

Not a big deal, but I just asked if anyone else knew about the number change before it was published. At the time, I didn't even know it was going to be auctioned off by AMI (even though I was told I should have seen it at The National - I do not stop by the AMI booth anymore for personal reasons. Oh yeah, and I was at The National for four hours or so and never came back) but I am glad AMI described this number change in their listing.

Now, we can see what this brings with a disclosed number change!

lund6771
08-27-2008, 09:14 AM
Has anyone on this site ever seen the jersey?? It was that the national in chicago and I did take a look at it. I thought it looked liked way to clean to be game worn. I did not notice anything on it, except for the paint. Sleeves/elbows, shoulders were as clean as the day the shirt was produced. I was going to take pictures but It in a glass case and there was way to much reflections from the lights. Anyone else get a look at it let us know... hope that helps it anyone is interested. Mike

When I looked at the shirt at the National, it appeared the same to me as well....there didn't seem to be much for wear...and regardless of what position he played, jerseys from this era should show a considerable amount of use...

the description states that there is one repair UNDER the sewn on number...did that happen from the guy who previously wore this?...or did the tear happen in the process of the number change?

The description is very accurate about being preserved so well...the orange colors on the numbers are extremely vibrant and again I was amazed that something so old stayed in such great condition

Regardless of whether it was field worn or not, this thing belongs in a museum....it's that nice....I'd be suprised if anyone who really wanted this thing would buy it sight unseen in the auction...so I guess they can make their own judgement as far as what it's worth....it will be interesting to see what it goes for

lund6771
08-27-2008, 09:38 AM
I appreciate your feedback, but I can't imagine why I would want to avoid a reputable auction house that is willing (by contract) to pay a large advance, earn a modest commission and be willing to pay the proceeds within 5 business days. The jersey will be exposed to the maximum number of bidders and quite honestly, would be quite entertaining.

Then again, I might just put it on display in my den, behind the bar.

Nah.


was this what was promised to you Java?

CollectGU
08-27-2008, 10:17 AM
...

the description states that there is one repair UNDER the sewn on number...did that happen from the guy who previously wore this?...or did the tear happen in the process of the number change?



I think they mean below, as in lower then, the number & not below the sewn on number......

lund6771
08-27-2008, 11:12 AM
I think they mean below, as in lower then, the number & not below the sewn on number......

Gotcha...I was thinking that they might want to re-word that, but on the other hand if someone is going to spend that kind of money, they probably already know that anyways

Eric
08-29-2008, 11:17 PM
Interesting shots of this rare and valuable jersey being worn by an American Memorabilia model on page 116 and 117 of their catalog

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/catalogs/catalog.pdf

Fnazxc0114
08-30-2008, 12:00 AM
eric
if you ever do this with the guu auction catalogues i will officially quit this board. whoever owns the jersey can do with it as they wish but to see it in this format makes me sick

mvandor
08-30-2008, 10:50 AM
Interesting shots of this rare and valuable jersey being worn by an American Memorabilia model on page 116 and 117 of their catalog

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/catalogs/catalog.pdf

Well, since Kieta also is the Editor of the catalog it does explain why she lacks the time to et checks out to consignors. :)

platinum1
08-30-2008, 12:45 PM
Interesting shots of this rare and valuable jersey being worn by an American Memorabilia model on page 116 and 117 of their catalog

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/catalogs/catalog.pdf
That SUCKS!!!! Doesnt it take a very long time to set up these shoots? Also there was a very good chance that Sid was the last person to wear the jersey even if he used it to paint. Now to think some stupid blond bimbo wore this jersey is CRAZY

Nathan
08-31-2008, 12:12 AM
The table of contents refers to Brett "Fabre".

How long until we see Lampson authenticate a jersey with a FABRE nameplate? It happened already with Willie MCGINIST and Troy POLOMALU.

ndevlin
08-31-2008, 05:21 AM
Man oh man, to some, it may have lost some value due to the fact the blondie is displaying the jersey. I didnt care to see it. The girl, ok, I did. But not her wearing the jersey. That was a bit of a shock to see that they even let her put it on.

yanks12025
08-31-2008, 09:10 AM
If i was the consigner i would not be happy with any of this. And i would bet that american memorabilia lost him money.

34swtns
08-31-2008, 10:17 AM
Nah.

Won't have any effect, whatsoever, on the final value of that jersey or any jersey for that matter. Some guys make too big a deal of AM's models posing in the items for sale. You've no idea how many fat, out-of-shape sports collectors have tried on the majority of these items over the years. I've yet to see any damage caused by a 110-pound model's young, perky set of boobs on a game worn jersey.

Minor indignities.......very minor.

ndevlin
09-01-2008, 05:14 AM
Its not the damage people are worried about. That actually never crossed my mind. The fact that someone else is wearing it may scare away a buyer or at least lose a little bit on the sale. Its a mental thing.

34swtns
09-01-2008, 07:34 AM
Yep, "mental".
I think that's a fitting term for anyone who wouldn't buy a rare item simply because a beautiful girl had tried it on. Quite mental.

cohibasmoker
09-01-2008, 09:44 AM
Nah.

Won't have any effect, whatsoever, on the final value of that jersey or any jersey for that matter. Some guys make too big a deal of AM's models posing in the items for sale. You've no idea how many fat, out-of-shape sports collectors have tried on the majority of these items over the years. I've yet to see any damage caused by a 110-pound model's young, perky set of boobs on a game worn jersey.

Minor indignities.......very minor.

What a person/owner of a jersey does with their property is up to them. With that said, does American Memorabilia own the jersey? No they don't so, whether perky boobs are involved or not, they should and I am sure they do take care on how they handle someone else's property.

Maybe, Victor asked the owner of the jersey if the jersey could be worn by one of his models? I don't know if he did or didn't but the owner of the jersey is a member of this forum. Maybe he'll comment on how the jersey was displayed? If he doesn't mind, I guess it would be a moot point.

Jim

34swtns
09-01-2008, 06:53 PM
Guarantee you, come pay day, he won't care if those girls wiped their a$$es with that jersey......and pay day is coming, BIG TIME.

B1SON
09-01-2008, 11:39 PM
Man oh man, to some, it may have lost some value due to the fact the blondie is displaying the jersey. I didnt care to see it. The girl, ok, I did. But not her wearing the jersey. That was a bit of a shock to see that they even let her put it on.

I don't have a problem with it, BUT I have to admitt I'd prefer to see her without it on. Without any jersey that is! ;)

aeneas01
09-02-2008, 01:25 AM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/03-5.jpg

trsent
09-02-2008, 01:47 AM
That is pretty cool and it has a great story to go with it.

Now if only they can have a story like that one to go with the Sid Luckman.

Did the guy who asked for our advice who owns the Sid Luckman tell us if he got his requested terms of being paid in a prompt period of time, etc. from American Memorabilia?


I appreciate your feedback, but I can't imagine why I would want to avoid a reputable auction house that is willing (by contract) to pay a large advance, earn a modest commission and be willing to pay the proceeds within 5 business days. The jersey will be exposed to the maximum number of bidders and quite honestly, would be quite entertaining.

Then again, I might just put it on display in my den, behind the bar.

Nah.

I assume AMI offered these type of terms to be sure they received this item. Now, I guess they just have to pay on time. I just figured the consignee would disclose to us if he received such terms and does he still feel safe after reading all the posts about AMI on that other forum I previously linked.

I think since making a deal with AMI the owner of this jersey in discussion has really kept quiet on this forum. This maybe someone at AMI told us about how evil this forum is?

Evil to some equals honest to others.

clementeking
09-10-2008, 12:29 PM
BTW....The jersey Sid Luckman is wearing on the cover (and inside) of the AMI auction catalog is NOT the one that they are auctioning. It is not the same jersey as you can see the difference quite easily. The one they are auctioning has a greater distance between the collar and the top of the number. The one Sid is wearing has the top of the numbers only about a half inch to an inch away from the collar.

Please note.....This is not to say that the jersey isn't legit.....It's just not the same one he is wearing in the photo. :confused:

Nathan
09-10-2008, 03:13 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/03-5.jpg

I've seen that a couple of times before, and each time I swear that the number underneath is 69. In fact, it seems fairly obvious. A 0 wouldn't have a bar through the middle of it, and it wouldn't have an obvious stop on a vertical bar. The fact that the second number looks like a flipped 6 (thus, a 9) adds to it.

matt
09-10-2008, 05:01 PM
Current bid is $25K with over a week to go.

Who wants to make a prediction on final price now that you have all agonized over the item's flaws (paint, lack of game use, number change, unwanted boob contact, etc)

My guess is $60K, but I claim no great expertise here.

Matt

B1SON
09-20-2008, 12:59 PM
I am going to guess roughly $40,000! :D

trsent
09-22-2008, 01:22 PM
I am going to guess roughly $40,000! :D

After 20% - $50,000.

What in the world is a 20% buyers premium and how does anyone get away with it?

I am going to start my own auction house and charge 20% someday, but for now...

lund6771
09-22-2008, 01:41 PM
After 20% - $50,000.

What in the world is a 20% buyers premium and how does anyone get away with it?

I am going to start my own auction house and charge 20% someday, but for now...


Hopefully the seller will post again and describe his experience with all this...

skipcarayislegend
09-22-2008, 02:26 PM
Hopefully the seller will post again and describe his experience with all this...

Ditto. I wonder how many weeks/months/years/decades will pass before he sees a check.

lund6771
09-22-2008, 04:47 PM
Ditto. I wonder how many weeks/months/years/decades will pass before he sees a check.

or presidential terms?

If the consignor wants the AMI Playbook for excuses as to why he's not getting paid...it would make for an interesting thread

But I guarentee you that the buyer got called by 9 the monring after the auction for payment

ivo610
01-19-2010, 11:25 AM
Wow what a great story to see a jersey go from start to finish. I do wonder how the seller felt at the end of this though.

both-teams-played-hard
01-28-2010, 02:22 PM
Did anyone save the original photos from the original eBay listing (not from AMI)?