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PAT HODGINS
04-17-2008, 08:16 AM
Dave Bushing posted yesterday on MEARS forum. Things can't be very good if one of your main authenticators quits authenticating.




"Well, After authenticating as well as buying and selling game used memorabilia full time since 1991 with quite a few books, chapters to books, articles , etc I've finally had enough with regards to the authentication aspects of this hobby. As those who acutally know me and have a real name and face to go with their alias, I have always been more than willing to help free of charge anyone who stopped to ask and have written more articles on collecting game used items than probably anyone in the history of this hobby as well as having co-invented/written the very worksheets now used by us and others, the first company to ever do so. In additiion, we published all of the unable to authenticate items for all to see so they would not make it back into the hobby, ever. And it is of no consequence that you can get 8000 items right but if you make a single error, regardles of how trivial and regardless that you will offer to buy back any mistake, no matter what it is, it never seems to be enough for the self proclaimed so called authorities who wait at the computer for an auction catalog to come out merely for the purpose to rip it to shreads to show the world how much they know and how little others do. This behavior is no longer tolerable to me. I do not wish to be a third party authenticator from this day on and will not sign nor look at any piece until such time that MEARS no longer does any research of any kind for anyone except for items in which we sell, much like Lelands does for their own merchandise, all with a money back guarentee. Dave Grob, Troy Kinunen and our able staff can and will continue to do the quality work that everyone expects and I will concentrate soley on the for sale sight and will not grade nor authenticate my purchases and will leave that to the staff. I will continue to write as well as I acually enjoy that along with selling and going to shows. When something is no longer a joy and the pundits far out number the frienly's, time to let someone else do it."

mvandor
04-17-2008, 11:30 AM
Sounds as though he was under some heat or criticism for a mistake or two and got thin skinned about it.

But it's not good for Mears to lose the active participation of such a respected authenticator.

Eric
04-17-2008, 11:53 AM
Mr. Bushing has responded to this thread...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1208442528/More+info

"In a response to is there trouble at MEARS. The trouble is not MEARS, we have a capable staff that is going to do the authenticiy work. The problem is me. I am just plain tired of putting out hudreds of evaluations only to be lambasted continuously by people who are more mysterious than Lou Lampson, people who have no real name or face, cynical self appointed so called experts that never comment on anything good anywhere but spend their time hiding from the public behind some handle and critising everybody else. Since I no longer am an independent third party authenticator, I can buy and sell like everyone else. I will no longer even grade or authenticate my own merchandise, rather leave that to the staff. I am sure there will be people that will find a conspiracy in that as well but I think Dave Grob and Troys reputations will weather such tripe. When and if MEARS completely abandons any third party authenticity work and becomes simply an organization that puts forth the best documented product for sale with a 100% money back guarentee and the most informitive artilces in the hobby with the greatest depth of research material ever gathered in this field, then I will authenticate my own merchandise just like every dealer in the country. We will then become simply a safe place to buy memorabilia as I am sure there will be any number of bloggers that will gladly step up and start authenticating Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig jerseys and take on the full financial reponsibility that goes with such a highly paid and publically rewarding job. Base point, no more conflict of interest, I am simply interested in buying and selling and making a profit. David Bushing"

sammy
04-17-2008, 12:03 PM
Good for you Dave.

You have helped this business/hobby beyond words, and I for one "Thank you!"

--------------------------------------------------------------



Now if some of these so called autograph authentication companies would give it up too.............

jboosted92
04-17-2008, 12:47 PM
Good for you Dave.

You have helped this business/hobby beyond words, and I for one "Thank you!"

--------------------------------------------------------------



Now if some of these so called autograph authentication companies would give it up too.............


Are you implying that BAD AUTOGRAPH AUTHENTICATION COMPANIES should give it up...subsequently meaning Dave was a BAD authenticator?

suave1477
04-17-2008, 01:06 PM
I think its funny he mentioned Lou Lampson lol lol:D

mvandor
04-17-2008, 01:23 PM
Well, he certainly sounds frustrated. Also sounds like there are differences of opinion internally as to what MEARS should be. I don't doubt buying and selling is easier and more profitable than authenticating responsibly, perhaps money is an issue as well.

DRILLINDK
04-17-2008, 01:49 PM
Great intergrity. I respect that decision.

33bird
04-17-2008, 01:59 PM
I think going into authenticating is like going into coaching or refereeing. It's a no win situation. Some will like your decisions and some won't. You can't go into certain professions assuming everyone will love your work. It just doesn't happen in these fields.
Greg

Vintagedeputy
04-17-2008, 02:42 PM
I respect his decision...

but "more mysterious than Lou Lampson" ?

is that even possible?

SkubeBats
04-17-2008, 03:08 PM
I have two questions. I was wondering what you guys think, will this help or hurt MEARS down the road? Do you guys think the rest of the staff at MEARS can do as good of a job as Dave always has.
Thanks,
Jamie

otismalibu
04-17-2008, 03:20 PM
My impeccable sources tells me that the original URL for GUF was...

www.hiding-critical-nameless-faceless-cynical-so-called-experts.com

Would have looked great on a t-shirt.

ndevlin
04-17-2008, 03:34 PM
Something smells fishy about his comments. Im not so sure we saw the last of his authentications.

Now if he said " I have decided to share with the public all of the Louisville Slugger records of every player that played the game. I apologize for buying bats on Ebay with the LS records(when no one else has access to these), authenticating them, and making bonkers off of it. LS has caught on to my deviant act of profit off of their business and no longer do I have access to these records, therefore, not able to authenticate."

Haha, Im sorry. I know a lot of you guys like him, but he really ticks me off on Ebay.

bigtruck260
04-17-2008, 03:41 PM
Something smells fishy about his comments. Im not so sure we saw the last of his authentications.

Now if he said " I have decided to share with the public all of the Louisville Slugger records of every player that played the game. I apologize for buying bats on Ebay with the LS records(when no one else has access to these), authenticating them, and making bonkers off of it. LS has caught on to my deviant act of profit off of their business and no longer do I have access to these records, therefore, not able to authenticate."

Haha, Im sorry. I know a lot of you guys like him, but he really ticks me off on Ebay.

Is it true that he no longer has access to LS records?

If I had that type of access, I would certainly use it to my advantage too...

Dave

ndevlin
04-17-2008, 03:45 PM
Haha, no no no Bigtruck. I just made that up. But now that I think about it, maybe he did get in trouble somehow? who knows?

Very true about using the records, but you know what I mean how that would get frustrating for someone that does not have access to that? According to LS, he is only aloud to use those records for authentication purposes. I'd be pissed if I was LS. Using their records for personal gain, I'd be pissed too!

kingjammy24
04-17-2008, 04:21 PM
i suppose i've got a different take on things. i think differing viewpoints are one of the things that makes this forum so valuable though.

predictably, dave paints himself as a selfless martyr, castigated by bloodthirsty hatemongers, all for nothing more than a couple of simple "mistakes". oh woe is him who hath build this hobby with his bare hands, authored every book and every article ever read by anyone, and helped his fellow collectors more than anyone in history. the nameless, faceless, online hellhounds have chased away a completely well-intentioned man who desired nothing more than to simply help his fellow collectors.

not sure how many caught this recent thread:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1208396670/1968+Lew+Krausse+Oakland+A%92s+jersey+%28Lot+%23+1 385%29+in+the+current+REA+Auction.

a simple "mistake" right? the sort that dave feels he's unfairly persecuted for. let's look at this mistake to see the grave injustices that dave is subjected to. the jersey is owned by bushing and has been given an A10, the highest grade possible. it has a very large, very noticeable stain on the front. mears' own grading criteria explicitly states that points are deducted for stains. anywhere from .5 to 5 pts depending on the size and severity of the stain. in order for the A10 to truly be an innocent mistake, 1 of 2 things must've genuinely occurred: either dave did not see the stain or he was unaware of mears' grading criteria. anyone with one working eye can see that stain. if dave truly missed it, then that is frightening. i don't believe he missed the stain. it's as plain as day, especially for an "expert".
was dave unaware of the details of mears' grading system? after spending years at mears, as their top authenticator, evaluating hundreds of items, i have to think that dave is very well versed in mears' grading system. so if dave saw the stain and was aware that points ought to be deducted for them, then how on earth could this jersey have managed to retain a perfect A10? could it be because dave owned the jersey and stood to personally profit from it? could it be because dave knew that an A10 would put more money in his pocket than an A7 or A8? those certainly seem far more plausible than the idea that he missed the stain or was unfamiliar with mears' grading system. this of course begs the question of how many other A10s has dave slapped onto items he's owned that really should've been graded lower (and thus sold for lower)? this behavior is not tolerable to me.

"I will no longer even grade or authenticate my own merchandise, rather leave that to the staff."

why was this not happening from day 1? if other mears staff could authenticate dave's items, then why on earth was dave doing it himself, especially given mears' strong objection to conflicts of interest?

dave bushing has his fans. i am not among them. if he truly stays retired from authenticating, then it seems he'll be doing what he really does best: blowing his own trumpet and flipping items.

incidentally, i found the notion of a "professional authenticator" calling out others for being "self proclaimed so called authorities" to be absolutely hilarious. especially when it was prefaced with dave "self proclaiming" all of his mighty accomplishments in the hobby. did he tell you how he's written more books than you? more articles, has given more advice, baptised more babies, parted more seas, and saved more planets? what i suspect dave is really tired of is being called out on his shenanigans. he's tired of not being able to operate in the "ethically-challenged" bushingland of the 90s, before mears came along and forced him to disclose conflicts of interest. oh the heady days of when you could buy a dimaggio bat, give it a perfect score, attribute it to his 56-hit streak, and quietly keep secret that you also owned the bat. perhaps he's really tired of having to operate within the confines of an ethical standard all while having his work subjected to the diligent eyes of the internet. it was much easier before GUU came along and before vince malta had the bright idea to release those damn bat records to the public.

"Base point, no more conflict of interest, I am simply interested in buying and selling and making a profit."

i'm not sure dave was ever interested in anything else. mears was simply a convenient tool for him to do it.

rudy.

ndevlin
04-17-2008, 04:31 PM
"I will no longer even grade or authenticate my own merchandise, rather leave that to the staff."

why was this not happening from day 1? if other mears staff could authenticate dave's items, then why on earth was dave doing it himself, especially given mears' strong objection to conflicts of interest?

---Because he buys way too many bats on Ebay:)



dave bushing has his fans. i am not among them. if he truly stays retired from authenticating, then it seems he'll be doing what he really does best: blowing his own trumpet and flipping items.

---- I agree with you! He sounds pretty damn arrogant to me!!

kingjammy24
04-17-2008, 04:35 PM
Very true about using the records, but you know what I mean how that would get frustrating for someone that does not have access to that?

i'm sure mike specht can provide more illumination and/or correct me here. way back when, only a select few had access to the LVS records. clearly this was frustrating to the collecting masses who were forced to depend on the select few for their interpretation of the records. especially frustrating when some of these select few came up with entirely new definitions for "matches factory records". i believe vince malta was instrumental in getting the permission from LVS to be able to release these records in a public format. vince authored 2 books on the matter. it's likely that malta's books are by far the most influential and valuable to bat collectors.

the curious side of me wonders what dave bushing originally thought of vince's idea to release the records to the public.

rudy.

Danny899
04-17-2008, 05:15 PM
[---- I agree with you! He sounds pretty damn arrogant to me!![/quote]

Imagine that, someone arrogant in this hobby. Words like "self proclaimed expert, professional authenticator, impeccable source, expert opinion" and a host of others. Don't forget the endless Lampson posts. It's obvious he doesn't have much credibility in this forum. Am I the only one who's grown tired of them? Do your own research when making purchases and don't rely on a letter or "expert opinion" Because when you question an "expert" whether it's here or through a company, you will certainly see how delicate some feelings are.
P.S. This was my amatuer opinion.

ndevlin
04-17-2008, 05:26 PM
So danny, are you agreeing or disagreeing with my quote you used?

Danny899
04-17-2008, 06:06 PM
So danny, are you agreeing or disagreeing with my quote you used


Mr. Devlin, I am agreeing with you and trying to show that the arrogance of some in this hobby is not limited to just one individual, company or "expert." You can see this on many posts in this forum, auction catalogs or websites. Try telling them them that slight deviations in numbers, fonts, sizing, tagging and tailoring doesn't necessarily mean a jersey is not authentic. Watch a game closely or look at common player jerseys and you can see that if you look hard enough. This is just one example. I'm objective enough to say that there many members on this forum who are extremely knowledgable and often helpful. But try telling some of them, "Hey you might be wrong," and watch the arrogance that you and I mention kick into high gear. Now wouldn't you agree?
Respectfully, Dan

ndevlin
04-17-2008, 06:14 PM
Ohhh ok, I got ya now! I think I just misinterpreted what you were saying:) I would agree with you.

both-teams-played-hard
04-17-2008, 06:32 PM
Authenticating? I thought that MEARS evaluated and researched material? I thought they gathered information about an item, gave an opinion, then let the customer make up their mind. All they have to win or lose is credibility.


Authenticating is like playing a girl in basketball. If you win, then you hear: "it's a girl-you're supposed to win."
If you lose, then you hear:
"how in the hell did you get beat by a girl?"

BMH
04-17-2008, 09:48 PM
Personally I believe Dave Bushing and Vince Malta did a great service for Hillerich & Bradsby by going through the archives, categorizing materials and for making a great manual such as Vince's book. This may sound sad but it's easier for us to use Mr. Malta's book than our own records when looking information on certain models!

The time and effort it must have taken to go through the written materials and through the bat vault is truly astonishing. A lot of our turning models are gone, they were thrown out, sold, or given away during a time when no one thought they were worth anything. At one of our auctions we were interested in buying a Honus Wagner bat that Mr. Bushing had for sale. Mr. Bushing stopped us because he found one in our basement that no one knew about.

I know most of you think of our records as some huge secret or holy grail of collecting, but honestly, there isn't much information there. Most of the details were kept by the turners themselves, in their heads. A lot of what's written in the books are footnotes to help them remember how to make the bats. None of it was really for historical documentation. Some of it are scraps of paper thrown in a folder. If it's anything like most the information I've found it was in one of the old warehouses in some corner and no one knew or cared it was there. I've found some of our old autograph books in our Floyd Street warehouse on the floor rotting.

I personally don't know all of the details with our dealings with Mr. Bushing or Mr. Malta. So if something did happen (which I seriously doubt) to our relationship with Mr. Bushing I haven't heard anything about it. I do know that Louisville Slugger is better off with the help we have received from both of them. I hope to see Mr. Bushing at Fanfest as I have for the past couple years and our auction in November.

Brian Hillerich
Pro Bat Production Manager
Louisville Slugger

allstarsplus
04-17-2008, 09:56 PM
Just last week on my top picks for bat authenticators on a GUF I listed Dave Bushing as one of my picks although I hadn't used his services in a while.

I found this on the MEARs site:


Re: More info

April 17 2008 at 1:37 PMhttp://www.network54.com/PersonalPhotos/1123130816.GIF
Joel Alpert (joel@alpert.net) (Login trsent (http://www.network54.com/Profile/trsent))

Response to More info (http://www.network54.com/Forum/426247/message/1208442528/More+info)Dave Bushing, bravo if it is time to move on but please understand, if you let the likes of certain public forums who believe everyone is out to commit fraud and never give a chance to the honest people in the industry get the best of you, they have done the job they have set out to do.

I stopped posting on one discussion group about a year and a half ago, but I did post a few months ago when questioned about an item I had for sale on eBay to come out of my shell. Before leaving that group on a daily basis, I had more posts in the discussions there than anyone else. I just realized my life was better not reading their criticism each and ever day.

In fact, here is an example. There was many issues with an auction house, Historic Auctions, where they were not replying to emails about questionable merchandise. I went out to dinner with the owner of the company where we discussed him responding to questions in a more professional manner. He promised to do so, then kept ignoring the questions.

Members of the discussion group threw it in my face that I met with the guy and listened to him promise to respond to questions. They literally made fun of me for trying. (I guess in the end they blocked links from the web site of this group, meaning they didn't want to be responsible for listening to questions about their merchandise)

Anyway, best of luck to you. I think you'll find being a buyer and seller only once again to be a great, stress free way to enjoy this great industry.

Joel Alpert
TRS Enterprises
joel@alpert.net

MEARS Certified Dealer

aeneas01
04-18-2008, 06:44 AM
i suppose i've got a different take on things. i think differing viewpoints are one of the things that makes this forum so valuable though.

predictably, dave paints himself as a selfless martyr, castigated by bloodthirsty hatemongers, all for nothing more than a couple of simple "mistakes". oh woe is him who hath build this hobby with his bare hands, authored every book and every article ever read by anyone, and helped his fellow collectors more than anyone in history. the nameless, faceless, online hellhounds have chased away a completely well-intentioned man who desired nothing more than to simply help his fellow collectors.

not sure how many caught this recent thread:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1208396670/1968+Lew+Krausse+Oakland+A%92s+jersey+%28Lot+%23+1 385%29+in+the+current+REA+Auction.

a simple "mistake" right? the sort that dave feels he's unfairly persecuted for. let's look at this mistake to see the grave injustices that dave is subjected to. the jersey is owned by bushing and has been given an A10, the highest grade possible. it has a very large, very noticeable stain on the front. mears' own grading criteria explicitly states that points are deducted for stains. anywhere from .5 to 5 pts depending on the size and severity of the stain. in order for the A10 to truly be an innocent mistake, 1 of 2 things must've genuinely occurred: either dave did not see the stain or he was unaware of mears' grading criteria. anyone with one working eye can see that stain. if dave truly missed it, then that is frightening. i don't believe he missed the stain. it's as plain as day, especially for an "expert".
was dave unaware of the details of mears' grading system? after spending years at mears, as their top authenticator, evaluating hundreds of items, i have to think that dave is very well versed in mears' grading system. so if dave saw the stain and was aware that points ought to be deducted for them, then how on earth could this jersey have managed to retain a perfect A10? could it be because dave owned the jersey and stood to personally profit from it? could it be because dave knew that an A10 would put more money in his pocket than an A7 or A8? those certainly seem far more plausible than the idea that he missed the stain or was unfamiliar with mears' grading system. this of course begs the question of how many other A10s has dave slapped onto items he's owned that really should've been graded lower (and thus sold for lower)? this behavior is not tolerable to me.

"I will no longer even grade or authenticate my own merchandise, rather leave that to the staff."

why was this not happening from day 1? if other mears staff could authenticate dave's items, then why on earth was dave doing it himself, especially given mears' strong objection to conflicts of interest?

dave bushing has his fans. i am not among them. if he truly stays retired from authenticating, then it seems he'll be doing what he really does best: blowing his own trumpet and flipping items.

incidentally, i found the notion of a "professional authenticator" calling out others for being "self proclaimed so called authorities" to be absolutely hilarious. especially when it was prefaced with dave "self proclaiming" all of his mighty accomplishments in the hobby. did he tell you how he's written more books than you? more articles, has given more advice, baptised more babies, parted more seas, and saved more planets? what i suspect dave is really tired of is being called out on his shenanigans. he's tired of not being able to operate in the "ethically-challenged" bushingland of the 90s, before mears came along and forced him to disclose conflicts of interest. oh the heady days of when you could buy a dimaggio bat, give it a perfect score, attribute it to his 56-hit streak, and quietly keep secret that you also owned the bat. perhaps he's really tired of having to operate within the confines of an ethical standard all while having his work subjected to the diligent eyes of the internet. it was much easier before GUU came along and before vince malta had the bright idea to release those damn bat records to the public.

"Base point, no more conflict of interest, I am simply interested in buying and selling and making a profit."

i'm not sure dave was ever interested in anything else. mears was simply a convenient tool for him to do it.

rudy.


i share your take....

but i also thought bushing's meanderings entered the realm of the truly bizarre - twilight zone, actually. i mean where else other than in the mind of mr. serling would you find a staff member announce to the world that he will remain with the company but will quit contributing to the very service the company offers? only in serling's world would this make strategic business sense.

here's a novel idea - rather than whine incessantly about perceived injustices and personal sacrifices that are not appreciated, why not publicly state that the message has been heard loud and clear and that from this point forward energy will be redoubled, commitment refocused, in an ardent effort to regain and maintain the collector's confidence in mears and its staff members. that from this point forward, with the collective help and input of collectors everywhere, mears will strive to be the absolute best in the business.

guess that wouldn't make much sense though, would it? guess when faced with adversity it's much easier to blame others, play martyr and take your ball and go home.

i don't know bushing but i have read some of his articles at mears and he strikes me as a guy that's genuinely passionate about the hobby - and he seems like a decent enough fellow. i just wish that he, nerat and a few others would hang up the ridiculous "evil anonymous poster" schtick. it's an enormous cop out and entirely disingenuous - i have never had any problem whatsoever contacting a forum member, we are here and available. hardly anonymous, hardly incommunicado. i would suggest that it is they that are the anonymous posters, bloggers, because they choose not to engage in discussion - and for good reason from what i can tell....

jboosted92
04-18-2008, 08:02 AM
Personally I believe Dave Bushing and Vince Malta did a great service for Hillerich & Bradsby by going through the archives, categorizing materials and for making a great manual such as Vince's book. This may sound sad but it's easier for us to use Mr. Malta's book than our own records when looking information on certain models!

The time and effort it must have taken to go through the written materials and through the bat vault is truly astonishing. A lot of our turning models are gone, they were thrown out, sold, or given away during a time when no one thought they were worth anything. At one of our auctions we were interested in buying a Honus Wagner bat that Mr. Bushing had for sale. Mr. Bushing stopped us because he found one in our basement that no one knew about.

I know most of you think of our records as some huge secret or holy grail of collecting, but honestly, there isn't much information there. Most of the details were kept by the turners themselves, in their heads. A lot of what's written in the books are footnotes to help them remember how to make the bats. None of it was really for historical documentation. Some of it are scraps of paper thrown in a folder. If it's anything like most the information I've found it was in one of the old warehouses in some corner and no one knew or cared it was there. I've found some of our old autograph books in our Floyd Street warehouse on the floor rotting.

I personally don't know all of the details with our dealings with Mr. Bushing or Mr. Malta. So if something did happen (which I seriously doubt) to our relationship with Mr. Bushing I haven't heard anything about it. I do know that Louisville Slugger is better off with the help we have received from both of them. I hope to see Mr. Bushing at Fanfest as I have for the past couple years and our auction in November.

Brian Hillerich
Pro Bat Production Manager
Louisville Slugger


BMH,

Thanks for saying the following:

"know most of you think of our records as some huge secret or holy grail of collecting, but honestly, there isn't much information there. Most of the details were kept by the turners themselves, in their heads. A lot of what's written in the books are footnotes to help them remember how to make the bats"

Most people think on this site, that those records are the end all of authenticating bats. While its a tremendous assest, to think that the bats listed in the notes were the only ones ordered or the only style(s) ordered is absurd and disproven, even by a L.S. Manager like yourselve!

I realize this is off-topic, but a great point to many other posts.

sicollector1954@insightbb.com
04-18-2008, 09:49 AM
BMH--I would appreciate an e-mail from you if you see this post. I have some pictures I would like you to send you.
I was at the Premier show in Chicago yesterday and talked with both John Taube and Dave Bushing for some time. I did not bring up this subject with Mr. Bushing as I had not read this thread previously and really did not know anything as to what might be going on.

The comments made by jboosted92 in the previous post are very true. I took a bat in for these 2 authenticators to see in person and neither could tell me what it was. They had no records to identify it and had never seen one marked like it previously so an opinion is all they could offer. Apparently--everyone is still learning something when it comes to this hobby--even the so called experts.

sicollector1954@comcast.net

ndevlin
04-18-2008, 09:58 AM
BMH,

Thanks for saying the following:

"know most of you think of our records as some huge secret or holy grail of collecting, but honestly, there isn't much information there. Most of the details were kept by the turners themselves, in their heads. A lot of what's written in the books are footnotes to help them remember how to make the bats"

Most people think on this site, that those records are the end all of authenticating bats. While its a tremendous assest, to think that the bats listed in the notes were the only ones ordered or the only style(s) ordered is absurd and disproven, even by a L.S. Manager like yourselve!

I realize this is off-topic, but a great point to many other posts.


So in saying that, why dont they just release the records to the public? Just curious.

Eric
04-18-2008, 11:06 AM
Regarding the posters being anonymous,

As I have explained before, everyone on this site registers with a valid first name, last name and email address. As I have explained before there is a searchable database of names in the Hobby Network section.

It is by no means anonymous.

Also, I'm confused about something. Bushing wrote "And it is of no consequence that you can get 8000 items right but if you make a single error, regardles of how trivial and regardless that you will offer to buy back any mistake, no matter what it is, it never seems to be enough for the self proclaimed so called authorities who wait at the computer for an auction catalog to come out merely for the purpose to rip it to shreads to show the world how much they know and how little others do."

So the complaint is that he's being corrected by people when an auction catalog comes out? These people- who are de facto niche experts- are saving MEARS the money and effort of having to buy items back.

It's interesting that he didn't say the info being offered by the people on message boards was incorrect, it's that they "show the world how much they know and how little others do"

Actually what they're doing is trying to prevent consumers from buying iterms that aren't entirely as authenticated.

jboosted92
04-18-2008, 11:06 AM
So in saying that, why dont they just release the records to the public? Just curious.


"They" did. Vince took HIS time to organize the info into a very readable book, and for his work, he sells the book. Fair enough.

Im sure all other persons who had the data werent going to dump it out publicly while Vince is making a book.

And remeber these "records" werent the cleanest copies of information to be distrubuted...

ndevlin
04-18-2008, 11:41 AM
I see what you are saying, but when I said "records", I meant every player that has records available, which they have not done.

When you said, "Most people think on this site, that those records are the end all of authenticating bats. While its a tremendous assest, to think that the bats listed in the notes were the only ones ordered or the only style(s) ordered is absurd and disproven, even by a L.S. Manager like yourselve!"

I see what you are saying, but at the same time a lot of people do not want the records for authentication purposes, obviously. I, for one, would like a fair advantage when I go after a bat, and when I go up against someone that has every record of a player. I personally feel thats an unfair advantage for the person that does not have those records. Sure, they've posted lots of records in books, but what about the Fred Hopke's, the Dwayne Helbigs, the Joe Pattersons, the Johnny Lipons?--Very small examples. They arent in those books, mostly just HOF and major stars. But, someone that is supposed to use these records for authentication purposes gets on Ebay and uses it for personal gain, thats what ticks me off. And I know some will disagree with this, but I know people that have gone after items without the records(not knowing for sure if the item is the real deal), to only be outbid by someone that has the records for that player. Then he authenticates his own items, and sells them for a huge profit on their website, as well as individual sales. Now thats wrong! I guess I might be the only one that feels the same about this issue. This is a hot topic for me, if you cant tell:)

G1X
04-18-2008, 12:40 PM
Eric,

How do I research names of posters in the searchable database of names in the Hobby Network section as mentioned in your previous post?

Regardless, it seems much easier to set rules requiring folks to post their full (real) name and email address each time they post. It would lend us all a little more credibility, and completely eliminate the "annonymous posters" and "coward" argument raised by Dave Bushing, Chris Nerat, and others.

Just a thought.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

jboosted92
04-18-2008, 12:48 PM
I see what you are saying, but when I said "records", I meant every player that has records available, which they have not done.

When you said, "Most people think on this site, that those records are the end all of authenticating bats. While its a tremendous assest, to think that the bats listed in the notes were the only ones ordered or the only style(s) ordered is absurd and disproven, even by a L.S. Manager like yourselve!"

I see what you are saying, but at the same time a lot of people do not want the records for authentication purposes, obviously. I, for one, would like a fair advantage when I go after a bat, and when I go up against someone that has every record of a player. I personally feel thats an unfair advantage for the person that does not have those records. Sure, they've posted lots of records in books, but what about the Fred Hopke's, the Dwayne Helbigs, the Joe Pattersons, the Johnny Lipons?--Very small examples. They arent in those books, mostly just HOF and major stars. But, someone that is supposed to use these records for authentication purposes gets on Ebay and uses it for personal gain, thats what ticks me off. And I know some will disagree with this, but I know people that have gone after items without the records(not knowing for sure if the item is the real deal), to only be outbid by someone that has the records for that player. Then he authenticates his own items, and sells them for a huge profit on their website, as well as individual sales. Now thats wrong! I guess I might be the only one that feels the same about this issue. This is a hot topic for me, if you cant tell:)


Last time i checked there wasnt a Fred Hopke store model bat, so if you came across one and it was a professional model, i think it would be a safe bet.


Are you saying that if according to L.S. entries Fred Hopke ordered a 33 inch 33 oz bat, and you came across a 34 inch 36 ounce Fred Hopke Pro-Model...the fact you "knew" that he ordered a 33 inch bat, would deter you from getting it? For common players, i doubt it...

As i doubt Fred Hopke bats were ordered in a heavy manner.

Im not sure if thats 100% of the reason, but think of how many pro -ball players ordered bats.. 60,000?

ndevlin
04-18-2008, 01:08 PM
Fred Hopke was a small example. And the answer to your question--Absolutely! If I had records indicating that a player ordered 33in 32oz bat, and came across a 35 in 34oz bat, whether a no namer or not, I wouldnt purchase it. Why would I? If the records dont match, then its a good probability its not his. Since I do not have the records, I have to go with a pure gut feeling I suppose and do research with the resources that I have. Does this make sense or am I just dumb?--dont answer that!:)

MSpecht
04-18-2008, 01:13 PM
Hi Nate--

At the risk of going too far off topic here, here are my thoughts on the points you raise:

First, to get a historical perspective on how the bat collecting hobby got to this point, check out this piece in the "Expert's Corner" of the GUU site:
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/blog/post.php?topic=151 (http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/blog/post.php?topic=151)

As far as H & B releasing the records to the public --- the effort, cost (in time and money) and the potential audience really does not make that viable , even if they wanted to do it. Remember, H & B primarily in the business of making and selling baseball bats. The records they have were never intended for public scrutiny, they were basically internal documents (or other pieces of information) used to assist in the manufacture and sale of baseball bats. When, after publication of our first book, BATS, H & B agreed, due to the tireless efforts of Vince Malta, to give us full access to their records, it was because Vince convinced them that the distribution of the records would assist collectors in determining the legitimacy of an item and lessen the possibility of collectors getting ripped off. Bill Williams, VP at the time, agreed that would be a good thing.

How much effort did the publication of Vince's second book take? Well, it was initially thought to be about a one year project , but it turned out that it was published 13 years after BATS, and about 10 years after autherization had been gained from H & B. And, that was after the decision to limit the inclusion of players' records to only Hall of Famers. By the way, in a previous post someone mentioned something like 'Vince got the informatiion, wrote the book, and makes the money.' I am absolutely positive that if either Vince or his wife read that, it would give them the best laugh they have had in years. If either of the books would have been viewed only as a profit-making venture, then publication of them would have been the worst business decision ever made. Anyway, as Brian Hillerich points out, the work involved in the research, writing, and publication was overwhelming to Vince and others at times, but ultimately the book proved to be useful to H & B over time as well. Also, H & B subsequently saw fit to use Dave Bushing as well, to access information in the records and respond to inquiries that the company received.

More to the point, Nate. Unfortunately, there is just not a sufficient audience of Johnny Lipon and Jesus Alou fans out there to warrant the effort and expense. The idea has been thrown around to publish another book, something along the lines of "The Next Best 100 Hitters Not in the Hall of Fame," but given the expense and effort, I do not see it happening. Occasionally, I will prepare a limited chart for a collector, and, depending on the number of years played, and the number of bats ordered, it is a 3 to 10 hour (unpaid) job. Actually, Jim Caravello and I have discussed the possibility of getting another 400 - 500 personal H & B shipping records out there through various possible delivery systems, but nothing has worked out yet.

Which brings us to GUU. There is no better place to access available information about professional model player's bats than this site. All of the HOF charts in Vince's book are available in the Game Used Library section of this site. If you use the "Read All Posts" feature by clicking on the name of Jim Caravello or me, you will find responses to questions that give all available information found in the H & B records for many, many non-HOF players, in much more detail than found elsewhere. The willingness of members Jeff Scott, Carlie Medina, Marcus Sevier, and many others to share their expertise in specific areas pertaining to game used bats is the embodiment of the "community" envisioned by Eric and Chris. The willingness of Brian Hillerich to actively participate in GUU is a major bonus to get both insight as to the inner workings of the H & B plus specific information on many current players. Not to say that GUU is the only place to get information. As I have always said, I believe the researched information delivered by Dave Grob, Dave Bushing, and Troy Kinunen on the MEARS site is among the most valuable in the hobby, not to mention the additional information found on Jeff's site - Birdbats , Vince and John Taube's postings on the PSA/DNA site, and others. But GUU is the site where you can get detailed information in pretty much real time, and that is the difference.

All the best in future collecting.

Mike Jackitout7@aol.com (Jackitout7@aol.com)

PS- MARK: to use the Hobby Network festure, take the following steps:

GUU > Log In .> Hobby Network> Search

Mike

BMH
04-18-2008, 01:35 PM
Mike,

Excellent post, I've spent the past hour trying to write something to answer some of the posts made and I believe you did a beautiful job. I'm not the best writer in the world and sometimes transferring what's in my head to the keyboard doesn't go as planned:rolleyes:

I love visiting this site and talking to different people in the business because it helps me learn about my job and it's past. I'm a firm believer in the fact you'll never know where you're going if you don't know where you've been. The information I get from this site is great and I recommend it to anyone that has a question for our company. To this day when I get an email about a bat I first consult Mr. Malta's book and if the information isn't there I give them Dave Bushings number. We don't have the resources to do the legwork so it was a great service to us to have Vince and Dave in our museum to help organize it better. After being on this site for the past year I now give out the web address to people who have questions about our bats.

I can answer most questions about newer models. I've been the one making them since 2003 and have made almost 300 new models. But for the older stuff I first refer to some computer records I have but most of that information is focused on souvenirs and may not accurately reflect what the player ordered.

kingjammy24
04-18-2008, 05:19 PM
robert and eric: agreed.

bushing addresses every single issue under the sun except the actual one at hand.

voice - dave, if you saw the stain and you know that at least .5 pt up to 5 pts should've been deducted, how did it retain an A10?

dave - people on GUF are nameless! and faceless! and good god, do you know how many books i've written?! books for pete's sake! who among you can say you've written books? alright then.

voice - dave, if you saw the stain and you know that at least .5 pt up to 5 pts should've been deducted, how did it retain an A10?

dave - stop focusing on mistakes! do you know that i've gotten many items right? stop hiding behind computers! mears offers guarantees! what other company offers a guarantee? answer me that.

voice - dave, if you saw the stain and you know that at least .5 pt up to 5 pts should've been deducted, how did it retain an A10?

dave - that's it, i'm quitting mears.

the last time i heard a whine like that was from the neighbor boy and it was because he needed his diapers changed. maybe dave needs the same.

rudy.

trsent
04-19-2008, 05:49 AM
dave - people on GUF are nameless! and faceless! and good god, do you know how many books i've written?! books for pete's sake! who among you can say you've written books? alright then.

rudy.

Rudy, I personally appreciate the work you have done on this forum helping create new avenues to authenticate and photo-match memorabilia.

I take the quote above and post it here, because everyone I talk to in the industry feels you are not a real person, that "Rudy" is a bulletin board persona.

I really don't care if you are real, if your real name is "Rudy" or if you buy and sell game used items yourself. I just bring the point up that Mr. Busing's comment that you listed above is a belief of many that even though there is a check and balance system on Game Used Universe, and your work on this forum has often been amazing, that no on really knows who you are or where you came from before the Game Used Universe discussion forum.


Eric,

How do I research names of posters in the searchable database of names in the Hobby Network section as mentioned in your previous post?

Regardless, it seems much easier to set rules requiring folks to post their full (real) name and email address each time they post. It would lend us all a little more credibility, and completely eliminate the "annonymous posters" and "coward" argument raised by Dave Bushing, Chris Nerat, and others.

Just a thought.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

As Mark suggests above, I do not understand how all posts are not responsible to the writer with a full name and email address. I know the staff from this web site has their rules and regulations, but maybe it is time everyone is public if they are going to post on this forum, the most read discussion group in the industry of game used sports memorabilia.

Rudy, I am not picking on you, please don't take it that way. I am just bringing up the point that anyone who ever discusses this forum with me brings up that they have no idea who you are. I would believe that someone in this industry would know you personally who I would have run into over my years of travel and chit-chat.

Finally, after talking to Troy and Dave Bushing from MEARS today, I found no reason to believe there is "Trouble at MEARS". They just introduced their new pin-back button grading and slabbing service at this convention, and they are doing fine. I just believe Dave Bushing has decided it is time to concentrate on his first love once again, which is buying and selling game used and vintage sports memorabilia as a part of MEARS For Sale.

3arod13
04-19-2008, 06:37 AM
All I can say about this thread is WOW!

mvandor
04-19-2008, 09:43 AM
Eric,

How do I research names of posters in the searchable database of names in the Hobby Network section as mentioned in your previous post?

Regardless, it seems much easier to set rules requiring folks to post their full (real) name and email address each time they post. It would lend us all a little more credibility, and completely eliminate the "annonymous posters" and "coward" argument raised by Dave Bushing, Chris Nerat, and others.

Just a thought.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
Personally I agree, but then I already comply with those parameters. I do thoink it would enhance credibility. I also think it would cause some to type more cautiously knowing they couldn't hide behind a handle.

--
Michael Vandor

trsent
04-19-2008, 02:08 PM
To the GUU Moderator who edited my post, what was wrong with my discussion on MEARS For Sale? My short paragraph was removed and I have no clue why.

Please advise on this forum, as I cannot imagine what rule was violated. I have a copy of the the three sentence paragraph on file and I cannot imagine what was wrong with it and I figure if it is going to be removed, me and my public should be notified why.

ndevlin
04-19-2008, 02:25 PM
What good does it to post your name and email address after our posts, if you dont want to? I understand all of your points, but at the same time, if I post something, and at the end put "Yoshi Nastystain Email- Yoshi@yahoo.com" Does that mean you are going to email me and feel better about my post knowing that you guys know my name is Yoshi Nastystain? So to me, posting your name and email address isnt a necessity. Is it sometimes nice for someone to drop a first name? Sure. Some people feel better about not posting that personal info on the net. And if you would really like to see a persons info, just search it on the Experts Corner. I personally have no problem with people posting their opinions whether they put a name/email with it or not. Its a game used forum, we're supposed to have fun and learn, not whine and fight with each other.

-Nate Devlin

Danny899
04-19-2008, 02:45 PM
And if you would really like to see a persons info, just search it on the Experts Corner. I personally have no problem with people posting their opinions whether they put a name/email with it or not. Its a game used forum, we're supposed to have fun and learn, not whine and fight with each other.

-Nate Devlin

Nate, Search the "experts corner." Oh no, there's that word expert again! Maybe rename it the, Ego Corner. We left out, "foremost authenticator." Is humor permitted here? You're right, this forum should be to have fun and learn, and mostly it is, but DO NOT question the experts. BTW, I haven't seen a Lampson mention in almost a day. Can you beleive it?
:D Dan

ndevlin
04-19-2008, 02:51 PM
Nate, Search the "experts corner." Oh no, there's that word expert again! Maybe rename it the, Ego Corner. We left out, "foremost authenticator." Is humor permitted here? You're right, this forum should be to have fun and learn, and mostly it is, but DO NOT question the experts. BTW, I haven't seen a Lampson mention in almost a day. Can you beleive it?
:D Dan


Whoops, thats Hobby Network to search. Are you implying that I am questioning experts?

Danny899
04-19-2008, 03:05 PM
Whoops, thats Hobby Network to search. Are you implying that I am questioning experts?

No Nate, not implying anything. Just venting about the so called experts that I've encountered in this hobby long before this forum existed. I just knew you would sympathize somewhat and maybe inject a little humor into a tense thread. Seriously, I always felt that Dave Meidema was as close to being an expert as anyone. He has always been helpful and a pleasure to speak with. He's the one who explained that slight deviations in size, tagging, fonts and other variables do not always mean a jersey is not authentic. He stated he became wiser by studying common player jerseys, not just stars. How many times do you see a jersey knocked down here because, "the font is slightly smaller." If you've ever spoke with him I'm sure you would agree. Dan

ndevlin
04-19-2008, 03:09 PM
Ah Dan, I got ya, I got ya.

ChrisCavalier
04-19-2008, 04:08 PM
To the GUU Moderator who edited my post, what was wrong with my discussion on MEARS For Sale? My short paragraph was removed and I have no clue why.

Please advise on this forum, as I cannot imagine what rule was violated. I have a copy of the the three sentence paragraph on file and I cannot imagine what was wrong with it and I figure if it is going to be removed, me and my public should be notified why.
Hello Joel,

The portion of your post was deleted because it violated the following forum rule:

No Advertising or Website Promotion. Please do not post any messages anywhere on this site that are primarily for the promotion or advertising of any website, forum, email address, business, multi-level marketing activity or other entity without prior approval from Game Used Universe.

If you now feel compelled to post on this forum again I would suggest making sure you familiarize yourself with the rules. Given your open and public criticisms of this forum, I think it would also help to clarify things up front. If your goal in coming back is motivated by a sincere desire to help the people who participate on this site you are more than welcome. However, if the intent is to cause any discord I will respectfully ask that you reconsider.

Sincerely,
Chris

trsent
04-19-2008, 04:24 PM
Hello Joel,

The portion of your post was deleted because it violated the following forum rule:

No Advertising or Website Promotion. Please do not post any messages anywhere on this site that are primarily for the promotion or advertising of any website, forum, email address, business, multi-level marketing activity or other entity without prior approval from Game Used Universe.

If you now feel compelled to post on this forum again I would suggest making sure you familiarize yourself with the rules. Given your open and public criticisms of this forum, I think it would also help to clarify things up front. If your goal in coming back is motivated by a sincere desire to help the people who participate on this site you are more than welcome. However, if the intent is to cause any discord I will respectfully ask that you reconsider.

Sincerely,
Chris

Chris, I am here to speak the truth about the industry. I was told that too much happens on this discussion group with no respect for the other side. Such as the discussion about Lou Lampson. I don't like his work ethic, but I also respect that he tries and I do not believe he is attempting fraud as many people have speculated on this discussion group.

As for my post about a company's sales policy as a retailer - I was not promoting a business, it was very clear, I was stating that they disclose what items they own and authenticate which is very positive for the industry that they tell you before you buy and item if they own it themselves so you know their letter of opinion came from an item they owned and you can decided to buy the item based on this information.

I know you personally do not like this company, but they are a player in the industry and my paragraph was not a promotion for them. It was making it clear that anyone who wishes to call it a conflict of interest may, because they tell everyone before the sale of the conflict that they stand behind as professionally as anyone I know in the industry.

Let's be clear, I follow the rules the best I can, but I get special treatment because I like to give a view that you may not personally agree with. It is ok for someone to start a discussion speculating that because Dave Bushing will no longer be an authentcator, there may be "Trouble at MEARS". When I come here and state that Dave is now working for a different division of MEARS, a division that fully discloses items they own and authenticate, you remove the paragraph about that - Why?

It is ok for someone to speculate that there is "Trouble at MEARS" but I state a true fact about Dave Bushing's new position, and you remove the part that mentions the company? I was not promoting anything. I was stating the facts.

If there was "Trouble at MEARS" would Dave Bushing been at the MEARS booth all weekend at the Ryan Friedman Sports Auction House Specular all weekend?

Chris, maybe if we work together in having adult discussions that are not edited and not personal attacks against others that are DISCUSSIONS, your fourm will continue to be the most read in the industry.

ChrisCavalier
04-19-2008, 04:43 PM
Joel,

Contrary to what you suggested, your post was not edited because of any personal feelings I have. The post was edited because it violated a rule, the same as tons of other posts on this site have been edited when the rules have been violated. Also contrary to what you suggest, I do not personally "not like" the company. I have had a number of really pleasant email conversations with Dave Grob and I just had an email exchange with Dave Miedema explaining I gave a favorable opinion of him to a collector at the Sun Times Show who asked me what I thought of him.

If you think I (or GUU) am out to get anyone than I can tell you that you are mistaken. We are unequivocally committed to making the hobby better for collectors and we are doing everything we possibly can to make that happen. What I am not interested in is spending my time trying to respond to false accusations (as I am having to do now). I am more interested in spending my time trying to figure out how to help collectors in every way possible.

Again, if you would like to participate in those efforts, please feel free. GUU will continue to do great things for the hobby and all who are committed to helping the collectors on this site are welcome here.

Sincerely,
Chris

trsent
04-19-2008, 05:20 PM
Joel,

Contrary to what you suggested, your post was not edited because of any personal feelings I have. The post was edited because it violated a rule, the same as tons of other posts on this site have been edited when the rules have been violated. Also contrary to what you suggest, I do not personally "not like" the company. I have had a number of really pleasant email conversations with Dave Grob and I just had an email exchange with Dave Miedema explaining I gave a favorable opinion of him to a collector at the Sun Times Show who asked me what I thought of him.

If you think I (or GUU) am out to get anyone than I can tell you that you are mistaken. We are unequivocally committed to making the hobby better for collectors and we are doing everything we possibly can to make that happen. What I am not interested in is spending my time trying to respond to false accusations (as I am having to do now). I am more interested in spending my time trying to figure out how to help collectors in every way possible.

Again, if you would like to participate in those efforts, please feel free. GUU will continue to do great things for the hobby and all who are committed to helping the collectors on this site are welcome here.

Sincerely,
Chris

Chris, I sent you a private message through the system about this discussion. I asked you to show where promoting a business was done that was out of line? I am waiting for a reply.

Stop being so defensive, it is not good for the heart my doctor tells me.

Notice I didn't repost the three sentences you removed? I have no clue how they were in violation. They were commenting about the discussion at hand and you removed them for some reason.

If I posted here say, "Upper Deck Authenticated is a great company with a great authentication system and data base and they disclose when people sign autographs for them and I really think they have an honest system", would you remove it?

There is no difference. It is a discussion, please re-read the three sentences and think about why they were removed.

Have you noticed a pattern with the replies I receive? I post for less than a day and instead of discussing the topics, they bring up strippers and my eBay listings being private? Such a poor defense instead of having a mature discussion.

beantown
04-20-2008, 05:09 PM
i suppose i've got a different take on things. i think differing viewpoints are one of the things that makes this forum so valuable though.

predictably, dave paints himself as a selfless martyr, castigated by bloodthirsty hatemongers, all for nothing more than a couple of simple "mistakes". oh woe is him who hath build this hobby with his bare hands, authored every book and every article ever read by anyone, and helped his fellow collectors more than anyone in history. the nameless, faceless, online hellhounds have chased away a completely well-intentioned man who desired nothing more than to simply help his fellow collectors.

not sure how many caught this recent thread:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/427155/message/1208396670/1968+Lew+Krausse+Oakland+A%92s+jersey+%28Lot+%23+1 385%29+in+the+current+REA+Auction.

a simple "mistake" right? the sort that dave feels he's unfairly persecuted for. let's look at this mistake to see the grave injustices that dave is subjected to. the jersey is owned by bushing and has been given an A10, the highest grade possible. it has a very large, very noticeable stain on the front. mears' own grading criteria explicitly states that points are deducted for stains. anywhere from .5 to 5 pts depending on the size and severity of the stain. in order for the A10 to truly be an innocent mistake, 1 of 2 things must've genuinely occurred: either dave did not see the stain or he was unaware of mears' grading criteria. anyone with one working eye can see that stain. if dave truly missed it, then that is frightening. i don't believe he missed the stain. it's as plain as day, especially for an "expert".
was dave unaware of the details of mears' grading system? after spending years at mears, as their top authenticator, evaluating hundreds of items, i have to think that dave is very well versed in mears' grading system. so if dave saw the stain and was aware that points ought to be deducted for them, then how on earth could this jersey have managed to retain a perfect A10? could it be because dave owned the jersey and stood to personally profit from it? could it be because dave knew that an A10 would put more money in his pocket than an A7 or A8? those certainly seem far more plausible than the idea that he missed the stain or was unfamiliar with mears' grading system. this of course begs the question of how many other A10s has dave slapped onto items he's owned that really should've been graded lower (and thus sold for lower)? this behavior is not tolerable to me.

"I will no longer even grade or authenticate my own merchandise, rather leave that to the staff."

why was this not happening from day 1? if other mears staff could authenticate dave's items, then why on earth was dave doing it himself, especially given mears' strong objection to conflicts of interest?

dave bushing has his fans. i am not among them. if he truly stays retired from authenticating, then it seems he'll be doing what he really does best: blowing his own trumpet and flipping items.

incidentally, i found the notion of a "professional authenticator" calling out others for being "self proclaimed so called authorities" to be absolutely hilarious. especially when it was prefaced with dave "self proclaiming" all of his mighty accomplishments in the hobby. did he tell you how he's written more books than you? more articles, has given more advice, baptised more babies, parted more seas, and saved more planets? what i suspect dave is really tired of is being called out on his shenanigans. he's tired of not being able to operate in the "ethically-challenged" bushingland of the 90s, before mears came along and forced him to disclose conflicts of interest. oh the heady days of when you could buy a dimaggio bat, give it a perfect score, attribute it to his 56-hit streak, and quietly keep secret that you also owned the bat. perhaps he's really tired of having to operate within the confines of an ethical standard all while having his work subjected to the diligent eyes of the internet. it was much easier before GUU came along and before vince malta had the bright idea to release those damn bat records to the public.

"Base point, no more conflict of interest, I am simply interested in buying and selling and making a profit."

i'm not sure dave was ever interested in anything else. mears was simply a convenient tool for him to do it.

rudy.

Some jerseys from the Bushing collection, graded by MEARS with an A10....

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11161

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11153

Also many other jerseys in this auction that come from the Bushing/Kinunen collection with a MEARS A10....

It's not always what you know, but who you know...:cool:

trsent
04-20-2008, 05:23 PM
Some jerseys from the Bushing collection, graded by MEARS with an A10....

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11161

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11153

Also many other jerseys in this auction that come from the Bushing/Kinunen collection with a MEARS A10....

It's not always what you know, but who you know...:cool:

All I can say is at least every item is identified as coming from their personal collection/inventory. What more can be said? They give full disclosure of ownership, isn't this what everyone was asking for to begin with?

I posted more about this before, but the moderator decided I was breaking forum rules discussing a business's practice so he removed those three sentences. I am still confused with what rule I was breaking discussing how a business promotes, certifies and fully discloses their ownership with their certification which means anyone who cries "Conflict of interest" is right but they disclose such right up front so the customer is fully aware with no games.

rose14
04-20-2008, 05:31 PM
Why do some people choose to make statements on here when they don't know 100% of what they are talking about. Beantown, you just made the statement of "it's not what you know but who you know" and then you gave links to two auctions with jerseys graded A10 by Mears.

Just so you know I was the original owner of the 1979 Ozzie Smith Padres jersey. I personally submitted it to Mears about a year ago where it was given an A10 grade. I can tell you 100% that this jersey didn't acheive the grade it did just because of who Bushing knows and who he is in business with.

rose14
04-20-2008, 05:51 PM
Sorry for the spelling error in my original post.

kingjammy24
04-20-2008, 06:12 PM
"½ to 5 points subtracted for the following (determined solely by authenticator):
Fading or staining (minor to abused)
Use is light (-2 to 4)
Use by more than one player or worn more than one season by other player (-3)"

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11113
graded A10. "the jersey displays light wear"

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11115
graded A10. owned by bushing. "the jersey displays light wear throughout"

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11144
graded A10. owned by bushing. "displays light wear including a few light stains on the front".

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11145
graded A10. owned by bushing. "displays light wear throughout"

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11149
graded A10. owned by bushing. "scattered light stains on the front"

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11157
graded A10. owned by bushing. "scattered light stains on the front"

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11158
graded A9. owned by bushing. 1 pt removed for the nameplate. "Use by more than one player or worn more than one season by other player (-3)" "Following the 1979 season this jersey was subsequently used by one of the Expos' minor league clubs." why was only 1 pt deducted and not 3?

in this one auction, of the 23 pre-87 jerseys that received an A10, mears owns 16 of them.

rudy.

beantown
04-20-2008, 06:13 PM
Why do some people choose to make statements on here when they don't know 100% of what they are talking about. Beantown, you just made the statement of "it's not what you know but who you know" and then you gave links to two auctions with jerseys graded A10 by Mears.

Just so you know I was the original owner of the 1979 Ozzie Smith Padres jersey. I personally submitted it to Mears about a year ago where it was given an A10 grade. I can tell you 100% that this jersey didn't acheive the grade it did just because of who Bushing knows and who he is in business with.

The auction states the jersey came from the Bushing collection and was graded by MEARS A10...did I state something incorrectly? I respect REA's full disclosure of the consignor, who also happens to be the authenticator, but that is a DEFINITE conflict....

allstarsplus
04-20-2008, 06:55 PM
IMO, I believe this is called a disclosed conflict and by REA rules is allowed so no rules have been violated.

The only issue is if you believe the rating is not justified.

Just because a jersey is light or moderate use doesn't mean that an A10 is not justified.

Read their criteria for the grading on their Mears Website:

http://www.mearsonline.com/services/jersey.asp

rose14
04-20-2008, 07:20 PM
Beantown, correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you were implying that its pretty convenient of all the jerseys that Dave consigned were given A10 ratings by the same company that he authenticates for?

I can't say about the other jerseys but I owned the Ozzie Smith jersey and paid for the authentication myself when it received the A10 rating. Dave purchased the jersey from the auction house that I consigned it to. How do you know that each and everyone of those jerseys that he has consigned to REA hadn't been originally submitted by an individual to be graded and then Dave or Troy purchased them at a later time either personally or through an auction house?

Just like with my Ozzie Smith Padre jersey, he had seen it personally and authenticated it prior to it being auctioned off so he had knowledge of what he was getting. Does he have an advantage since he has seen all the items that have been authenticated by MEARS that are being sold at auction? Yes, compared to most people who don't even get to see their first look of an item until they receive it after being the winning bidder. Sure you can go and view items in person at the auction house location prior to an auction ending but how many people can actually do that?

The only problem I could ever see is that if Dave or Troy ever gave a low grade to something they authenticated and then purchased it later on and researched it further and gave it a higher grade to sell at a higher price. To my knowledge this has never been done as it would be very hard to get by unnoticed by the very savy collecting community.

beantown
04-20-2008, 07:37 PM
I'm saying that Dave Bushing can and should use his expertise to acquire pieces for his own personal collection. Which he did in this instance….

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11280

However, should he decide to consign/sell a piece from his own personal collection, he should have it examined by an objective third party…

allstarsplus
04-20-2008, 07:38 PM
How do you know that each and everyone of those jerseys that he has consigned to REA hadn't been originally submitted by an individual to be graded and then Dave or Troy purchased them at a later time either personally or through an auction house?


The only problem I could ever see is that if Dave or Troy ever gave a low grade to something they authenticated and then purchased it later on and researched it further and gave it a higher grade to sell at a higher price. To my knowledge this has never been done as it would be very hard to get by unnoticed by the very savy collecting community.

Great points except the other problem would be if the authenticator owned the jersey in their own inventory and then authenticated it with a higher rating than it deserved.

Your example of changing a Rating to a higher rating upon taking ownership would probably be considered "fraud" and be a crime unless there was some fairly material disclosed changes.

Just my opinion.

aeneas01
04-20-2008, 07:43 PM
"Kansas City Royals jersey worn by catcher Fran Healy during the club's inaugural season in 1969. Graded a perfect A10 by MEARS. The white flannel jersey is lettered "Royals" across the front and features the number "16" on the reverse. All letters and numerals are appliquéd in royal blue tackle twill. A Major League Baseball "100th Anniversary" patch appears on the left sleeve. A "Wilson 42" label appears on the left front tail. The jersey is completely original, with no alterations, and displays light wear including a few light stains on the front. This is a very rare flannel Royals jersey dating from the club's inaugural 1969 season. The Royals wore flannel uniforms for just four seasons before switching over to knits in 1973. Fran Healy made his Major League debut with Kansas City in 1969, appearing in six games with the club that year. In 1974 he became the team's starting catcher before being traded to the Yankees in 1976, where he served as backup to Thurman Munson. Healy retired in 1978 and later enjoyed a successful broadcast career as a color analyst. Graded A10 by MEARS. This is one of only five Kansas City Royals flannel jerseys and only the second example from 1969 listed in the MEARS census (the other 1969 jersey is graded A7). It is also only one of three Royals flannel jerseys from any year graded at this level. This jersey has been consigned to this auction directly from the personal collection/inventory of world-renowned bat and jersey authenticator David Bushing. LOA from Dave Bushing & Troy Kinunen/MEARS. Reserve $500. Estimate $1,000/$1,500."

i gotta say fellas, i'm not very impressed with this "full disclosure". stating that the item came from the personal collection of bushing and comes with an loa from bushing, kinunen, mears is not the same as stating that the owner and seller of the item, bushing, is the one that awarded the item its grade. not in my book. as a matter of fact, this "full disclosure" strikes me more an effort to leverage bushing's reputation and connection with the item than an honest accounting of the fact that the seller is the one that graded his own item.

imo a true full disclosure would include the following at the beginning of the item description: note to all perspective bidders: in an effort to provide full disclosure it is important that you understand that the following item has been awarded its grade by the owner and seller of the item, dave bushing, who works as an authenticator and grader for mears authentications services. mr. bushing, through mears, has also issued the letter of authenticity for this item.

i think this would be less confusing - and honest.

Moustache Gang
04-20-2008, 07:43 PM
Forum Readers,

King Jammy24's posting above is empirical evidence of what I have been saying exactly all along. The MEARS scoring system is inconsistent and in some cases not fair, and in other cases sides with jerseys owned by MEARS.

I have a 1974 green Rollie Fingers jersey that was purchased in 2006 from the Robert Edwards Auction. The jersey comes with a certification from MEARS. The certification listed the wear as, "consistent with player (Fingers) and postion (Relief Pitcher)., but on the back they subtracted -2 points for "light wear"!!! How can a jersey be lose two points for "light wear" when it is consistent with the player and the position???

It all goes back to what I produced to Troy at MEARS. I listed at least four points where MEARS was inconsistent in grading the Fingers jersey. Troy stated all my points were good, but they would not respond to changing the grade!!!

Why aren't the MEARS-owned jerseys subtracted by -2?!?!? They talk about holding Auction Houses to a high standard!!!

King Jammy (Rudy), this is incredible information. Thank you for your due dilligence.

Mark

kingjammy24
04-20-2008, 08:42 PM
Just because a jersey is light or moderate use doesn't mean that an A10 is not justified.

Read their criteria for the grading on their Mears Website:

http://www.mearsonline.com/services/jersey.asp


andrew,

from the link you provided:

"½ to 5 points subtracted for the following (determined solely by authenticator):
Use is light (-2 to 4)"

apparently, according to mears' own terminology, if the use is light then points ought to be deducted.

rudy.

allstarsplus
04-20-2008, 08:49 PM
andrew,

from the link you provided:

"½ to 5 points subtracted for the following (determined solely by authenticator):
Use is light (-2 to 4)"

apparently, according to mears' own terminology, if the use is light then points ought to be deducted.

rudy.

Rudy - I could be wrong, but isn't that subtraction for Post - 1987 jerseys?

kingjammy24
04-20-2008, 09:00 PM
Rudy - I could be wrong, but isn't that subtraction for Post - 1987 jerseys?

i could also be wrong but i don't believe so.

"Jerseys dating from 1987 and earlier
A10 No negative traits can be found to receive this grade. The jersey must ... show optimal wear"

i took the point subtractions for light use from the mears grading criteria lists and the specific list for "light use" didn't say "post-1987 only" as it did in another list.

lastly, as you've read in this thread, mark had his 1974 rollie fingers subjected to a 2 point reduction from mears for "light use". if mears subtracted 2 points from marks 1974 jersey for "light use" then how on earth can they award A10s to jerseys that they describe exactly as having "light use throughout" !? ultimately it's this example that really provides the truth. mears took 2 pts off from his pre-87 jersey for light use. whether that's good or bad isn't the issue. it's mears' scale. that's fine. however, what doesn't make sense is why they don't seem to apply that scale accurately. why does mark's '74 rollie jersey get 2 pts off but 3 jerseys that bushing owns that he himself describes as having "light use" manage to have 0 points taken off?

rudy.

Moustache Gang
04-20-2008, 09:11 PM
All Star Plus,

You might want to go back and read the criteria. Under the pre-87 it reads....

"A1 - A8: This grade reflects a cumulative evaluation resulting from documented subtractions of 2 full points or more. All reasons for subtraction will diagramed and noted by the defined point scale."

The defined point scale to add and subtract is below this section. It is my understanding that the listed point scale is used for both pre and post 1987 jerseys.

Mark

allstarsplus
04-20-2008, 09:24 PM
i could also be wrong but i don't believe so.

"Jerseys dating from 1987 and earlier
A10 No negative traits can be found to receive this grade. The jersey must ... show optimal wear"

i took the point subtractions for light use from the mears grading criteria lists and the specific list for "light use" didn't say "post-1987 only" as it did in another list.

lastly, as you've read in this thread, mark had his 1974 rollie fingers subjected to a 2 point reduction from mears for "light use". if mears subtracted 2 points from marks 1974 jersey for "light use" then how on earth can they award A10s to jerseys that they describe exactly as having "light use throughout" !? ultimately it's this example that really provides the truth. mears took 2 pts off from his pre-87 jersey for light use. whether that's good or bad isn't the issue. it's mears' scale. that's fine. however, what doesn't make sense is why they don't seem to apply that scale accurately. why does mark's '74 rollie jersey get 2 pts off but 3 jerseys that bushing owns that he himself describes as having "light use" manage to have 0 points taken off?

rudy.

Rudy/Moustache Gang - I see your points, and the subtractions at the bottom of the MEARs grading page, I read as Post-1987 and the last point on their sheet is "can be added or subtracted at the authenticator's discretion" which gives them that subjective override, but it further says it "will be noted on the "Jersey Grading Authenticating Official Worksheet".

That Rollie Fingers rating would seem problematic if "wear" was the only issue given as it is a Pre-87 jersey as their A-10 description states, "Each piece is also evaluated on the degree of evident use and wear, which must be consistent with that of the player, sport, position,......"

Wouldn't it be nice if someone from MEARs would comment on issues like this on this thread. Maybe there is a simplistic explanation.

By the way, I personally won't bid on any of these "Bushing owned" jerseys and I think every one has to decide on their own what to do.

rose14
04-20-2008, 10:00 PM
Beantown & Allstar, I do agree with you that it is a conflict of interest for someone to authenticate their own items but it happens with alot of other authenitcators/dealers/auction houses. John Taube and Grey Flannel are two that come to mind. I don't think that their is an authenticator in the business that does not have some sort of personel collecting interest. If they didn't I would highly doubt that they would be doing what they do for a living.

Authenticators/dealers do have to walk a very fine line but in the case of Bushing who else could look at their items and check their grading?

trsent
04-20-2008, 10:03 PM
I'm saying that Dave Bushing can and should use his expertise to acquire pieces for his own personal collection. Which he did in this instance….

http://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bidplace.aspx?itemid=11280

However, should he decide to consign/sell a piece from his own personal collection, he should have it examined by an objective third party…

What third party authenticator is there other than MEARS and the members of Game Used Universe's Forum?

MEARS has a policy that they can authenticate items they own and if they sell them, it must be fully disclosed. If anyone doesn't like the policy, they have a right not to buy or bid on it, but they have FULL DISCLOSURE in all listings through REA and their own web site's sales division.

I would think at least they are being honest would end this discussion, but it just appears a few people feel that it should be debated from now until the end of time. They are making it very clear their ownership and authentication (similar to that from say, 100% Authentic that is owned by the same people who own American Memorabilia, but they don't disclose if they own an item and then authenticate it for sale) is done by the same people. They are being honest, but that is not enough?



Wouldn't it be nice if someone from MEARs would comment on issues like this on this thread. Maybe there is a simplistic explanation.

By the way, I personally won't bid on any of these "Bushing owned" jerseys and I think every one has to decide on their own what to do.

MEARS will not reply on this discussion forum to your questions. They have a forum on their web site or I believe you can email them directly with your questions. It is too bad you will not look at any items owned by Dave Bushing, he is one of the old gang that really knows his stuff and I can tell you from my friendship and dealings with him personally, he doesn't spend his money on junk in my opinion.

trsent
04-20-2008, 10:05 PM
Beantown & Allstar, I do agree with you that it is a conflict of interest for someone to authenticate their own items but it happens with alot of other authenitcators/dealers/auction houses. John Taube and Grey Flannel are two that come to mind. I don't think that their is an authenticator in the business that does not have some sort of personel collecting interest. If they didn't I would highly doubt that they would be doing what they do for a living.

Authenticators/dealers do have to walk a very fine line but in the case of Bushing who else could look at their items and check their grading?

Good points, but as I keep stating, at least he is disclosing that he owns the item and his company, MEARS is authenticating it. How often does Grey Flannel (or AMI as I stated before) tell you in their auction catalog when they own the item they are selling, auctioning and authenticating?

Moustache Gang
04-20-2008, 10:15 PM
Joel,

We do not know if Bushing is breaking any ethics rules or is in violation of anything. What we do know is that he has a clear pattern of giving the jerseys he or MEARS owns a score of A10 when they have light wear and even some stains, yet my Rollie Fingers jersey that was won 2 years ago in the REA auction was given an A8 and they subtracted -2 for "light wear" when the exact same MEARS certification stated the wear on the Fingers jersey is "consistent with player and position".

Joel tell how all Bushings jerseys get an A10 and mine gets and A8.

Thanks,

Mark

trsent
04-21-2008, 03:38 AM
Joel,

We do not know if Bushing is breaking any ethics rules or is in violation of anything. What we do know is that he has a clear pattern of giving the jerseys he or MEARS owns a score of A10 when they have light wear and even some stains, yet my Rollie Fingers jersey that was won 2 years ago in the REA auction was given an A8 and they subtracted -2 for "light wear" when the exact same MEARS certification stated the wear on the Fingers jersey is "consistent with player and position".

Joel tell how all Bushings jerseys get an A10 and mine gets and A8.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark, I do not know the answer to your question, but I think you should bring it up each and every day in a new thread on this site and you should add it to any discussion about MEARS on this discussion forum. In fact, you should email them every day and keep posting about your grade until your fingers get tired of typing.

You should also keep posting about it on the MEARS forum. Maybe then they will reevaluate their grade.

jboosted92
04-21-2008, 09:49 AM
Joel,

We do not know if Bushing is breaking any ethics rules or is in violation of anything. What we do know is that he has a clear pattern of giving the jerseys he or MEARS owns a score of A10 when they have light wear and even some stains, yet my Rollie Fingers jersey that was won 2 years ago in the REA auction was given an A8 and they subtracted -2 for "light wear" when the exact same MEARS certification stated the wear on the Fingers jersey is "consistent with player and position".

Joel tell how all Bushings jerseys get an A10 and mine gets and A8.

Thanks,

Mark


Mark,

I didnt see a reply on the MEARS forum? I assume you saw my 3 examples, i provided in 15 minutes or jerseys with similar game use stain?

Eric
04-21-2008, 09:53 AM
Mark, I do not know the answer to your question, but I think you should bring it up each and every day in a new thread on this site and you should add it to any discussion about MEARS on this discussion forum. In fact, you should email them every day and keep posting about your grade until your fingers get tired of typing.

You should also keep posting about it on the MEARS forum. Maybe then they will reevaluate their grade.

Joel-
Please refresh yourself with the forum rules. This is clearly baiting another user.
Eric

sammy
04-21-2008, 11:42 AM
Hi Joel,

Welcome back.

We old timers on this forum sure missed you.

Moustache Gang
04-21-2008, 01:47 PM
Chris,

Thanks for pointing out the rules to Joel now that he is back again. Apparently he still must be upset that MEARS stripped him of his "MEARS certified seller" status and he feels as if he takes their side he can win them over again. His sarcastic comments on this board are not needed and Dave Bushing and I, along with you are in agreement with that as well.

Speaking of Dave, he and I just traded email back and forth. MEARS has agreed to downgrade the Krausse jersey to a A9.5 from an A10. The -.5 was deducted for the stain on the front which I pointed out.

Secondly, MEARS has agreed to update their score sheet to make scoring less subjective and more objective. This again was something that I had requested and I am glad to see, Troy, Dave and Dave move MEARS in this proactive direction. I know this move will provide MEARS with a very effective tool to complete their assessments and at the same time it will reduce the number of issues that come up with subjective grading.

Finally, Dave and I are still on polar opposites when it comes to the A8 grade on the Rollie Fingers jersey. Hopefully something can be worked out.

Sincerely,

Mark

harpt
04-21-2008, 02:01 PM
Mark,

I ask this purly out of curiosity, and am not trying to make any statement with my question. I really do wonder about people's thought processes in these situations.

Question: Why do you care what the grade is?

If you are intending to sell it, and figure it will sell for more because of the higher grade, than I get it. But is this jersey for sale (or will it be)?

If the shirt is not for sale, and you think the jersey is perfect, why do you care if one ONE OTHER PERSON in this hobby thinks it's less. It's just one person's opinion. I know this particular person carries a lot of weight in the community, but it's still just one guy's take on it.

Just my thoughts.

allstarsplus
04-21-2008, 02:03 PM
Good points, but as I keep stating, at least he is disclosing that he owns the item and his company, MEARS is authenticating it. How often does Grey Flannel (or AMI as I stated before) tell you in their auction catalog when they own the item they are selling, auctioning and authenticating?

Joel - I agree with you and this was certainly a step in the right direction with regards to full disclosure. There are plenty of nice items I bid on in the REA Auction---and I hope to win a few.


Finally, Dave and I are still on polar opposites when it comes to the A8 grade on the Rollie Fingers jersey. Hopefully something can be worked out.

I personally felt good about this until Rudy compiled the list of jerseys that were given an A10 (light use) and then Mark made a very good point about his A8 rating for light use.

If Mark's jersey was re-graded to an A10 then I would be fine with this as at least there was some consistency in the rating system

-or-

maybe someone from MEARs can email Mark with a logical answer so Mark can post it here.


Secondly, MEARS has agreed to update their score sheet to make scoring less subjective and more objective. This again was something that I had requested and I am glad to see, Troy, Dave and Dave move MEARS in this proactive direction. I know this move will provide MEARS with a very effective tool to complete their assessments and at the same time it will reduce the number of issues that come up with subjective grading.


Excellent update. There will always be that subjectivity just like the severity of a stain, but the closer their ratings can get to the a-la-carte scoring menu the less problems in the future.

Mark, I really hope you get satisfaction from this.

trsent
04-21-2008, 02:16 PM
Joel-
Please refresh yourself with the forum rules. This is clearly baiting another user.
Eric

My point is the same user complains over and over again about the same thing. Every day a new thread, adding it to any thread they can? Since coming back, it appears the forum rules are watched more closely for my posts than others. Funny, I had three sentences removed because Chris said I was promoting a business. I am watched more closely for discussing issues and why? Eric, I will email you throse three sentances right now.


Chris,

Thanks for pointing out the rules to Joel now that he is back again. Apparently he still must be upset that MEARS stripped him of his "MEARS certified seller" status and he feels as if he takes their side he can win them over again. His sarcastic comments on this board are not needed and Dave Bushing and I, along with you are in agreement with that as well.


Sincerely,

Mark

As for Mark's stupid comment, where did I ever lose my "MEARS Certified Dealer" status? Dave Grob and I have a disagreement over what the term means, but I don't even care about this term anymore, but you said it and I challenge you to show where I was stripped of any status. Please, tell me where you came up with your facts for this really stupid comment that has nothing to do with anything we were discussing.

If you think your posts made MEARS change a few grades, that is great for the industry. If you feel your Rollie Fingers jersey should be reevaluated, I would contact Troy and see about sending the jersey back for a reinspecting.

Coming onto a forum in as many places as possible and complaining about your issues is what my concern is.

trsent
04-21-2008, 02:31 PM
I think I have finally figured it out, I was told my comments are sarcastic. I think people want to believe they are right in every discussion and they don't like to hear the other side, or in this case, the truth about their side.

I was hoping this discussion would die off already as I was hoping to return to my shell again.

Moustache Gang
04-21-2008, 02:39 PM
Joel,

I came up with the fact on the MEARS board. Troy stated and I quote his words posted directly to you, "We chose not to offer you or any individual sellers a contract due to overall market resistence to the 2008 contracts..."

He states furthermore,

"So officially, your title as a certified dealer is "unofficial". "It does not appear to make sense that you would be a MEARS certified dealer when you are against the policies and practices that would be included in all contracts."

So are we missing something here??

No stupid comment by me. I am just relaying the facts. If you want to get into a word war or split hairs and say you were not "stripped" that is fine and I take back the word stripped, but MEARS has clearly laid out their policy and you are now an "unofficial" certified MEARS dealer.

Mark

trsent
04-21-2008, 02:51 PM
Joel,

I came up with the fact on the MEARS board. Troy stated and I quote his words posted directly to you, "We chose not to offer you or any individual sellers a contract due to overall market resistence to the 2008 contracts..."

He states furthermore,

"So officially, your title as a certified dealer is "unofficial". "It does not appear to make sense that you would be a MEARS certified dealer when you are against the policies and practices that would be included in all contracts."

So are we missing something here??

No stupid comment by me. I am just relaying the facts. If you want to get into a word war or split hairs and say you were not "stripped" that is fine and I take back the word stripped, but MEARS has clearly laid out their policy and you are now an "unofficial" certified MEARS dealer.

Mark

Mark, the debate you are showing only part of the discussion is about the MEARS Auction House Contract which I had issues with how it makes it impossible for any major auction house who doesn't sign the contract to be unable to submit items for submission, even at full retail submission. It also means a customer who shows intent to have MEARS write a letter but then turn the item to an auction house who doesn't swow, ign the MEARS letter cannot have their item authenticated at full retail.

I don't need to get into when Troy gave me a copy of the letter and told me I had to sign it, but then they decided it would be for private auction houses only and not eBay sellers.

That is what the debate was about. As for the Certified term, Troy and I came up with that in his office one night. Unofficial, fine, but it was approve and accepted by Troy.

Oh wait, once again, I just realized, when someone is losing the discussion, they look for a way to divert the topic to something else - Like trying to pick on me. Ok, you win, you have changed the subject and personally attacked me by bringing up a subject that has nothing to do with you complaining about the same thing over and over on many discussions. According to your previous post, I guess you have made progress with MEARS, so I guess it worked.

Was there anything else you wanted to attack me on or did you wish to get back to the point at hand which originally was that Dave Bushing's stepping down as an authenticator to concentrate on retail sales does not mean there is any "Trouble at MEARS" but the company is doing just fine?

both-teams-played-hard
04-21-2008, 03:03 PM
I was hoping this discussion would die off already as I was hoping to return to my shell again.

OK. I'm bored. I'll take the bait.
Joel
Did you ever see the film, "The Breakfast Club"? You know the part when Judd Nelson keeps insulting the principal and keeps getting days of detention...and Molly Ringwold mouths the word "Stop" because she wants Judd to quit digging a hole for himself? Well, I'm Molly and you're Judd.

trsent
04-21-2008, 03:07 PM
OK. I'm bored. I'll take the bait.
Joel
Did you ever see the film, "The Breakfast Club"? You know the part when Judd Nelson keeps insulting the principal and keeps getting days of detention...and Molly Ringwold mouths the word "Stop" because she wants Judd to quit digging a hole for himself? Well, I'm Molly and you're Judd.

That movie was filmed at a school right down the road from me.

Ok, I'll stop, but only because you are one of the few people I respect.

dodgersfan
04-21-2008, 03:08 PM
Let's lock this one up.


Rudy

trsent
04-21-2008, 03:09 PM
OK. I'm bored. I'll take the bait.
Joel
Did you ever see the film, "The Breakfast Club"? You know the part when Judd Nelson keeps insulting the principal and keeps getting days of detention...and Molly Ringwold mouths the word "Stop" because she wants Judd to quit digging a hole for himself? Well, I'm Molly and you're Judd.

...but I should add, I don't feel I'm digging any holes. People only want to hear their side of any argument, and my side is always wrong to most posters on here for some reason.

I have my supporters who agree with me but are the large group that reads this forum but doesn't post on it.

...BYE!

nyjetsfan14
04-21-2008, 11:00 PM
only because you are one of the few people I respect.

That's too bad.

mvandor
04-22-2008, 07:47 AM
Let me say I consider Mears the best authentication shop in the biz and Bushing's decision a big loss to the community. Another flipper adds nothing of benefit to offset the loss of a very good authenticator.

I also consider Mears to have about the strongest ethics policy out there. Nevertheless, an authenticator grading his own items should never be permitted, even with disclosure IMHO. This discussion simply indicates how far the industry has yet to go to have proper controls in place, and how it cries out for legislative action to set basic standards.

aeneas01
04-23-2008, 08:29 AM
Let me say I consider Mears the best authentication shop in the biz and Bushing's decision a big loss to the community. Another flipper adds nothing of benefit to offset the loss of a very good authenticator.

I also consider Mears to have about the strongest ethics policy out there. Nevertheless, an authenticator grading his own items should never be permitted, even with disclosure IMHO. This discussion simply indicates how far the industry has yet to go to have proper controls in place, and how it cries out for legislative action to set basic standards.

well put....