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View Full Version : Thoughts On Junior Seau helmet?



Eric
03-21-2008, 11:00 PM
Is this helmet being offered by ebay user acl233
10850
10849
http://cgi.ebay.com/JUNIOR-SEAU-MIAMI-DOLPHINS-GAME-USED-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ150228090586QQihZ005QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

the same as this one? The seller says it's not.
10848

Is there any way to tell? (I think the use might have to be discarded when comparing the two)

Anyone know the seller acl233?
Thanks

Eric
03-21-2008, 11:02 PM
Here's the interior of the one on ebay

10851

mvandor
03-22-2008, 01:22 AM
What second helmet are you comparing to?

aeneas01
03-22-2008, 01:34 AM
eric -

the "seau" helmet listed on ebay is a schutt pro-air model which seau never wore - he wore schutt's next generation model, the air-advantage, throughout his years with the fins. in short, there's a big problem with the listed lid.

speaking of seau and helmets - he was a riddell guy during his years with the bolts and returned to wearing a riddell when he joined the pats. as a matter of fact, he even wore a riddell when he first joined the fins - at least during his first training camp with the fins and the first few preseason games. but once the regular season started he began sporting a schutt air-advantage and continued to do so until he left for new england. did schutt pay him for this? did a dolphin teammate turn him onto schutt? who knows...

it's pretty easy to quickly tell the difference between the two schutt models as shown below - the forehead sizer (padding) that can usually be seen when looking at these helmets head-on is very different, especially in the corner areas (circled in red). and, fwiw, the photos of seau the ebay seller has included in his ad show seau sporting an air-advantage, not the pro-air he is selling....


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp.jpg

aeneas01
03-22-2008, 02:00 AM
eric -

i thought you were asking if the ebay was authentic, which it's not. but i see that you are asking something else - if the helmet listed on ebay is the same one as shown in the photo you provided. imo there is little doubt they are the same lid....

mvandor
03-22-2008, 04:57 AM
the "seau" helmet listed on ebay is a schutt pro-air model which seau never wore - he wore schutt's next generation model, the air-advantage, throughout his years with the fins.

aeneas, the Advantage is the current Schutt model with the slit behind the ear hole, isn't it? Some Seau shots on Getty show the helmet sans that slit, which would make it the Air II, no?

http://cache3.asset-cache.net/xc/56133839.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CE4ACAEF2D095515F2 4E9C89C783688B46

Eric
03-22-2008, 10:38 AM
I had remembered seeing a Seau Dolphins helmet sold on Steve Misturini's AuthenticSports website. I wrote the ebay seller and asked if it was srouced from them. The seller says it came from a teammate of Seau's.

(This seller has two ebay accounts acl233 and nfl2mlb and is/was selling
a 2003 Dante Hall game used Chiefs helmet
http://cgi.ebay.com/DANTE-HALL-82-KANSAS-CITY-CHIEFS-GAME-USED-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ150221425077QQihZ005QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

AuthenticSports was selling a 2001 Dante Hall game used helmet

A Champ Bailey Redskins 2003 helmet
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150211072496

AuthenticSports was selling a Champ Bailey 2003 helmet

A Chad Pennington Jets helmet
CHAD PENNINGTON N.Y. JETS QB GAME USED WORN HELMET (#150200356032)

AuthenticSports was also selling a 2004 Pennington helmet

Here is a list of what helmets AuthenticSports had in their inventory a while back
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=27599&postcount=7

The seller also is selling or has sold a Warren Sapp helmet
http://cgi.ebay.com/WARREN-SAPP-GAME-USED-WORN-TAMPA-BAY-BUCS-HELMET_W0QQitemZ110233984228QQihZ001QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And a Drew Bledsoe helmet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/DREW-BLEDSOE-GAME-USED-WORN-BUFFALO-BILLS-HELMET_W0QQitemZ110229508059QQihZ001QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Aeneas, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these pieces. I enjoy reading your informative posts and you are a true asset to this board and the hobby
Eric

I know helmets are very hard to come by, so if this is a coincidence, it's an amazing one.

mvandor
03-22-2008, 02:06 PM
As aeneas has said many times, modern lids are just too easy to replicate. In the case of the Seau, even the chinstrap is readily available, only the pearl white metallic finish might be a challenge to procure.

Guy is NOT getting game used prices from the items you listed, more like custom helmet prices. Betting his stories are the same on where he got them in each case. Hard to trust people playing the multiple account game for sure.

zachary
03-22-2008, 04:20 PM
IN addition does anyone have any thoughts on the Thomas
jersey the same seller has listed.

aeneas01
03-23-2008, 08:18 AM
aeneas, the Advantage is the current Schutt model with the slit behind the ear hole, isn't it? Some Seau shots on Getty show the helmet sans that slit, which would make it the Air II, no?

good eye mvandor....

the thing is, when we discussed your tomlinson helmet i was under the impression that schutt had released the air-advantage around 2004-2005 - i was also under the impression that the "slit" was standard when the air-advantage was introduced and that it provided a quick and convenient way to easily tell schutt models apart.

but the fact of the matter is schutt introduced the air-advantage in time for the 2001 season - further, the early models did not have the "slit". from what i can tell, it appears that the slit was added in 2004/2005.

with that said, tomlinson has worn an air-advantage since joining the bolts in 2001 - never a pro-air. further, from what i can tell, tomlinson never switched to the newer air-advantage with the slits as far as his navy helmet was concerned; he only switched to the newer av with the slits hen it came to his white helmet. this tells me that lt probably stuck with the same navy lid for quite a few years.

but back to the seau helmet in question - seau definitely wore an air-advantage when with the fins, the earlier "slitless" model, not a pro-air as listed on ebay. as far as the ebay helmet being the same helmet eric was asking about, compare the small dot below the right "5" of the "55" appearing on the inside of the helmet. also compare the the light dot on the orange stripe just above the nose bumper. in the game photo i posted of seau there also appears to be a light dot in the same location - heck, it would be tempting to even call it a photo match. but imo this dot in the game photo is simply an extension of a reflection which is supported by other game photos. on the other hand i don't believe the dot on the listed helmet is a reflection - i think it is there and shows on both helmets making them the same lid.


Aeneas, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these pieces.

eric, as mvandor mentioned, i feel that these sort of helmets are just too easy to imitate so i really don't spend much time looking at them closely - i did see all of the helmets you mentioned and there was nothing about them that made me believe that they couldn't have been easily pieced together.

and, fwiw, i think a lot of buyers seem to be very impressed with the "special team paint" appearing on some ebay helmets - they seem to believe that the lids must be authentic given the metallic or pearl finishes. but this isn't a special paint - what gives helmets this look is just pearl or metallic powder mixed with a translucent polyurethane top coat; it can purchased at many paint outlets.

back to pro-air and air-advantage helmets: from the photos below you can see that it's pretty easy to tell the difference between a schutt pro-air (left) and air-advantage (right) when looking at the lid head-on. isaac bruce switched from a pro-air to an air-advantage the year the av became available. the bottom two photos show an air advantage without the "slit".


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y238/aeneas1/sub/comp-1.jpg

mvandor
03-23-2008, 09:13 AM
So you're saying the Advantage has the square interior pad, the Air the round?

aeneas01
03-23-2008, 11:42 PM
So you're saying the Advantage has the square interior pad, the Air the round?

short answer:

yes

long answer:

excluding jaw pads, the interior padding of the two helmets is also considerably different - the interior of the air-advantage consists of nothing more than the air-bladder and a very cheap feeling / looking styrofoam padding. frankly mvandor, the styrofoam in the air-advantage has the look and feel of what one might expect from a floor display model with fake padding.

schutt billed the air-advantage as a "lighter" alternative to the pro-air given the pro-air was fitted with thicker, heavier vinyl-covered foam padding (sizers) - some players even continued to use the thicker pro-air sizers with their air-advantage lids when they first came out. also, the larger ventilation holes in the air-advantage apparently saves on some weight as well. but imo the weight difference is negligible once the facemask, hardware, paint, etc. is added. imo schutt simply discovered a more efficient air-bladder that allowed for less redundant padding.

speaking of schutt lids, the original "air-power" helmet (pro-air's predecessor) was manufactured by bike products and introduced in the mid to late '70s. schutt eventually acquired bike helmets in the late '80s but didn't change the helmet design until the pro-air was introduced. but the change was very slight and mostly effected the "round" air-bladder you mentioned - instead of 8 spokes the bladder was reduced to 7 which created a better forehead padding area. so when you see older schutt helmets, the ones with 8-spoke bladders are air-power models and the ones with 7-spoke bladders are the newer pro-air models. but everything else about the helmets are virtually identical....

btw mvandor, when i was checking out this "seau" lid i revisited our discussion from months ago when you and i chatted about lambeualeeper and your tomlinson helmet - those were my first posts to the forum and, i have to say, i was pretty embarrassed by my tone and sarcasm as i reread the thread, especially in response to your posts. further, and again embarrassingly, it doesn't appear that i ever mentioned in the thread the reasoning for my tone. if that's the case then let me explain now - i was a complete jerk when i responded to your posts because i was sure that you were lambeauleeper and that you were using the forum to try and convince forum members of the authenticity of the goods.

obviously i should have spent more time reading posts and getting to know forum members before i shot off at the mouth in that manner - but i guess i was so excited to find this haven (and so annoyed at folks like lambeau) that i just couldn't wait to post my thoughts on the matter. anyway mvandor, please accept my apology.

mvandor
03-24-2008, 02:47 AM
anyway mvandor, please accept my apology. None needed, that exchange was the beginning of my education, I learned much and continue to from your posts. I definitely got taken by ole Lamby and overpaid at least $200+ for my LT lid. There's even a better one on ebay now for $300 honestly represented as a copy. Same facemask issue and too many rear decals, but is a very good LT 2006 knockoff at a reasonable price. I love that helmet but I'll never recover what I have into it.

John in KY
03-24-2008, 03:02 PM
short answer:

yes

long answer:

excluding jaw pads, the interior padding of the two helmets is also considerably different - the interior of the air-advantage consists of nothing more than the air-bladder and a very cheap feeling / looking styrofoam padding. frankly mvandor, the styrofoam in the air-advantage has the look and feel of what one might expect from a floor display model with fake padding.

schutt billed the air-advantage as a "lighter" alternative to the pro-air given the pro-air was fitted with thicker, heavier vinyl-covered foam padding (sizers) - some players even continued to use the thicker pro-air sizers with their air-advantage lids when they first came out. also, the larger ventilation holes in the air-advantage apparently saves on some weight as well. but imo the weight difference is negligible once the facemask, hardware, paint, etc. is added. imo schutt simply discovered a more efficient air-bladder that allowed for less redundant padding.

speaking of schutt lids, the original "air-power" helmet (pro-air's predecessor) was manufactured by bike products and introduced in the mid to late '70s. schutt eventually acquired bike helmets in the late '80s but didn't change the helmet design until the pro-air was introduced. but the change was very slight and mostly effected the "round" air-bladder you mentioned - instead of 8 spokes the bladder was reduced to 7 which created a better forehead padding area. so when you see older schutt helmets, the ones with 8-spoke bladders are air-power models and the ones with 7-spoke bladders are the newer pro-air models. but everything else about the helmets are virtually identical....

btw mvandor, when i was checking out this "seau" lid i revisited our discussion from months ago when you and i chatted about lambeualeeper and your tomlinson helmet - those were my first posts to the forum and, i have to say, i was pretty embarrassed by my tone and sarcasm as i reread the thread, especially in response to your posts. further, and again embarrassingly, it doesn't appear that i ever mentioned in the thread the reasoning for my tone. if that's the case then let me explain now - i was a complete jerk when i responded to your posts because i was sure that you were lambeauleeper and that you were using the forum to try and convince forum members of the authenticity of the goods.

obviously i should have spent more time reading posts and getting to know forum members before i shot off at the mouth in that manner - but i guess i was so excited to find this haven (and so annoyed at folks like lambeau) that i just couldn't wait to post my thoughts on the matter. anyway mvandor, please accept my apology.

Great post that sums up the differences in the Air helmets. I'm more of a "historian of helmet design" than a collector, but I should point out that some of the original Bike/"Air Helmet Inc."/Schutt Air Power helmets with the 8-spoke bladder actually had a two-layer bladder. I saw a "fitting" video back on an NFL pre-game show in the late 1970s that showed the player with just the bladder on his head getting the inner layer inflated. Then it was installed in the helmet, the entire helmet fitted and the upper layer inflated. I've never seen one in person; just the Pro Airs and later models. Schutt used to have old Air Power parts on their website with a cut-away of the two layer bladder. Also, I think the Pro Air might date to the final year of the Bike name (circa 1985 or so).

You can see the progression from the Air Power where the inlflated bladder was the element that provided the most protection, through the Pro Air where they were moving toward more foam padding, through to the current Air Advantage where it is relying mostly on the foam padding instead of the air bladder.

Final trivia - Bike is actually a two-time loser at the helmet game. Bike's parent company was a medical equipment supplier that was sold to a larger company in the mid-1980s. The new owners got very nervous about having deep pockets and getting sued by someone with a football neck injury, so they spun the helmet division off under the name "Air Helmet Inc." It lasted as an independent for less than one year before Schutt bought them. After their non-compete with Schutt expired, Bike brough out their "Pro Edition" helmet, which was an ultra-light model worn by people like Warren Sapp. Bike was a victem of their own sucess with this one and couldn't fill the orders. They were forced to sell this line of helmet to Adams, who makes the current version of the helmet.

Eric
03-25-2008, 09:30 PM
I had remembered seeing a Seau Dolphins helmet sold on Steve Misturini's AuthenticSports website. I wrote the ebay seller and asked if it was srouced from them. The seller says it came from a teammate of Seau's.

(This seller has two ebay accounts acl233 and nfl2mlb and is/was selling
a 2003 Dante Hall game used Chiefs helmet
http://cgi.ebay.com/DANTE-HALL-82-KANSAS-CITY-CHIEFS-GAME-USED-WORN-HELMET_W0QQitemZ150221425077QQihZ005QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

AuthenticSports was selling a 2001 Dante Hall game used helmet

A Champ Bailey Redskins 2003 helmet
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150211072496

AuthenticSports was selling a Champ Bailey 2003 helmet

A Chad Pennington Jets helmet
CHAD PENNINGTON N.Y. JETS QB GAME USED WORN HELMET (#150200356032)

AuthenticSports was also selling a 2004 Pennington helmet

Here is a list of what helmets AuthenticSports had in their inventory a while back
http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=27599&postcount=7

The seller also is selling or has sold a Warren Sapp helmet
http://cgi.ebay.com/WARREN-SAPP-GAME-USED-WORN-TAMPA-BAY-BUCS-HELMET_W0QQitemZ110233984228QQihZ001QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And a Drew Bledsoe helmet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/DREW-BLEDSOE-GAME-USED-WORN-BUFFALO-BILLS-HELMET_W0QQitemZ110229508059QQihZ001QQcategoryZ868 28QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Aeneas, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these pieces. I enjoy reading your informative posts and you are a true asset to this board and the hobby
Eric

I know helmets are very hard to come by, so if this is a coincidence, it's an amazing one.

see another thread for an additional overlap between authenticsports and acl233

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=77630&postcount=2

Eric
03-25-2008, 09:34 PM
acl233 also sold a 1999 carl pickens

http://cgi.ebay.com/CARL-PICKENS-CINCINNATI-BENGALS-GAME-USED-WORN-JERSEY_W0QQitemZ150228275563QQihZ005QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

steve misturini's authenticsports coincidentally used to have one in his inventory

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showpost.php?p=27599&postcount=7

same for the 2003 sam madison

http://cgi.ebay.com/SAM-MADISON-DOLPHINS-GIANTS-GAME-USED-WORN-JERSEY_W0QQitemZ150223509135QQihZ005QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

aeneas01
03-29-2008, 02:46 PM
the "seau helmet" sold for $1,000 - amazing....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150228090586&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

speaking of amazing, how about this "miami dolphins 1972 game worn helmet team signed" that just sold on ebay for $2,300. who knew that the 1972 undefeated dolphins were running around with wd1 lids on their heads - ya learn something every day, eh?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150229382963&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005

Eric
03-29-2008, 03:17 PM
After I pointed out some odd coincidences between this seller's goods and questionable items sold by authenticsports, acl233 stopped responding to my emails and continued with his sales.

Another coincidence?
Eric

aeneas01
03-29-2008, 04:19 PM
After I pointed out some odd coincidences between this seller's goods and questionable items sold by authenticsports, acl233 stopped responding to my emails and continued with his sales.

Another coincidence?
Eric

i emailed the buyer and pointed him to this thread - i wonder how long it will take acl233 to get hip to ebay's "private bidder" feature....

Eric
04-05-2008, 12:20 AM
looks like acl233 slipped up. the seller said he had nothing to do with steve misturini or his authenticsports inventory. he has been showing all of his ebay listings as coming from Las Vegas.

He listed one which says "Lindenhurst, New York" which happens to be the place Misturini and AuthenticSports were operating before they disappeared from ebay.
11137

Eric
04-14-2008, 11:22 AM
Seller acl233 who has been selling some of Steve Misturini's AuthenticSports inventory is also buying and bidding on some nice items...

NFL Game Wilson Football Brush $1.00 NO RESERVE
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330217983659
Item number: 330217983659
NFL game day Wilson football brush. The same exact brush they use on the balls to prep them for the games. This item is brand new in box. Please check out my other items up for sale

11279

Vince Young Auto. GAME USED Tenn.Titans helmet! RARE!!!

Authentic game used helmet- includes all pads / straps!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130206881590
http://pics.ebaystatic.com/aw/pics/s.gifYou are bidding on a GAME used Tenn. Titans helmet Autographed by Vince Young! This helmet was worn in GAME ACTION by running back Chris Brown durring the 2005 season! This helmet includes ALL stickers straight from Titan's game use. This has the optional player use chinstrap cut to Chris Brown's length and monikered with his number "29". This is the officail helmet with air-pump holes and all padding! This helmet is from a celebrity/charity auction held by the Nashville Predators. The Vince Young auto is GUARANTEED to pass PSA/DNA certification. If you purchase the helmet you can have PSA/DNA give it their "quicklook" certification and I will take the price you paid ($7.99) off the ending price! Being that it's game used there are scuffs and scrapes... but thats the WHOLE POINT!!! IF you want a GREAT game used helmet here it is... PERSONALLY AUTOGRAPHED by one of the games greats!! Shipping includes insurance!!

.
Game Used Schutt Pro Air II Football Helmet

Item number: 290216714225
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290216714225


Manny Ramirez 2004 game issued Cleats Boston un used

Item number: 310036865412
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310036865412
2004 Boston Redsox Manny Ramirez Game-Cleats


Manny Ramirez is one of the best players in the big leagues today. These are the best custom cleats I have ever offered. Reebok "11" cleats. "24" is applied on the side of the cleat. The back heel has Manny home flag applied. Reebok manufacture tags appear on the inside and reveal promotion samples size: us 11. If you look at all the photo from the 2004 world series, you will see the same style cleats S/H $12.95
11278


[SIZE=2]1923- 2008 New York Yankee Stadium Patch Jersey Yankees

Item number: 290220302442
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290220302442

MAXPRO GAME READY FOOTBALL HELMET MEDIUM 63/8-7

Item number: 320237361737
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320237361737

New York Jets Game Used Worn Helmet NFL

Item number: 140222302193
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140222302193
11277

2008 NY Yankee Stadium All Star Game Jersey Patch Combo

Authentic MLB Product Actual Photo Hologram + Serial #Item number: 120245087548
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120245087548

New York Yankee Stadium 2008 All Star Game Patch Set NY

Guaranteed ready-to-sew! Military & Int'l addresses OK!Item number: 300214753378
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300214753378

Eric
04-16-2008, 09:59 PM
acl233 is now listed as "not a registered user" that's odd

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=acl233&ftab=AllFeedback&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:SFS&iid=150233484620&item=150233484620&frm=1883

same for nfl2mlb
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=nfl2mlb&ftab=AllFeedback&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:SFS&iid=110235055407&item=110235055407&frm=1883

wonder what happened

mvandor
04-17-2008, 11:18 AM
acl233 is now listed as "not a registered user" that's odd

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=acl233&ftab=AllFeedback&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:SFS&iid=150233484620&item=150233484620&frm=1883

same for nfl2mlb
http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=nfl2mlb&ftab=AllFeedback&sspagename=STRK:MEWA:SFS&iid=110235055407&item=110235055407&frm=1883

wonder what happened

You outed em, they need to "change masks". :)