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sctizzle
02-08-2008, 04:56 PM
A friend emailed me as he was offered a 94 Jim Kelly Throwback..Here is what he sent me:

Buffalo wore 2 throwbacks in 1994... A white and A Blue... The jersey I am being offered is the blue.. The throwbacks were worn by Buffalo in 2 games... They are both early season games.. One being in Houston in a 15-7 win and the other in a 30-27 loss at home vs Denver on a Monday night. I believe the jersey was worn in the Denver game but I am not sure..

I haven't been able to find any pictures from either game..

--------------------

Does anyone have pix from the game or have any information regarding these jerseys?

Thanks,
Scott
sjnyr@aol.com

scottanservitz
02-08-2008, 08:03 PM
That jersey was offered here as well. I asked for pics and the jersey looks brand new to me. I realize one game used jerseys show little use, but this one shows nothing at all. The labels are crisp, I would be very surprised to see this was a game used jersey. As such, since proving any use is probably almost impossible, it is being sold as game issued. Gamers garner about 3-5 times what they are asking. Just my opinion.
Scott

EndzoneSports
02-10-2008, 12:33 PM
The Bills wore their dark "home" Throwback jersey for the game against Denver of Sep 26, 1994.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,

mchmaj
02-10-2008, 01:17 PM
i got the pictures of 94 throwback kelly jersey from the guy that posted it for sale on this forum...
my problem with the jersey is the numbers are IRON/PRESSED ON BUT the KELLY and stripes are painted/screened on so i think the numbers are ADDED after he gets the jersey... and couple of months ago, I SAW BLANK THROWBACK BILLS JERSEY ON EBAY with KELLY ON back WITHOUT numbers, and it has 1994 tagging and champion tags as well.... i wouldnt touch it
BILLS NEVER WEAR IRON/PRESSED on NUMBERS !!!
thanks
marcus

WOODFERN
02-11-2008, 12:25 PM
This Post Is From The Guy Selling This Jersey. I`m Not An Expert In Game Used Jerseys, But, I Want To Make One Thing Clear, Especially To That Last Post From Marcus. I Won This Jersey In An Auction From Grey Flannel In 2002. I Still Have The Catalog And Loa From Them. If You Have A Problem With This Jersey, Get Your Facts Straight. I Did Not Win This Jersey On Ebay And Add The Numbers Later. That`s A Down Right Lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I Won This Jersey From Grey Flannel And Was Just Looking To Sell It.

toddhead
02-11-2008, 12:37 PM
This Post Is From The Guy Selling This Jersey. I`m Not An Expert In Game Used Jerseys, But, I Want To Make One Thing Clear, Especially To That Last Post From Marcus. I Won This Jersey In An Auction From Grey Flannel In 2002. I Still Have The Catalog And Loa From Them. If You Have A Problem With This Jersey, Get Your Facts Straight. I Did Not Win This Jersey On Ebay And Add The Numbers Later. That`s A Down Right Lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I Won This Jersey From Grey Flannel And Was Just Looking To Sell It.

I have purchased a 1994 throwback jersey from WOODFERN and the transaction was perfect. I know he has sold other throwbacks from 1994 and he has had no complaints that I know of.

Marcus, I think you should do a little more research before public blasting anyone. I know you consider yourself a Bills expert, but that doesn't mean you shoud accuse WOODFERN of being a crook because you don't think the jersey is real.

mchmaj
02-12-2008, 11:56 AM
I have purchased a 1994 throwback jersey from WOODFERN and the transaction was perfect. I know he has sold other throwbacks from 1994 and he has had no complaints that I know of.

Marcus, I think you should do a little more research before public blasting anyone. I know you consider yourself a Bills expert, but that doesn't mean you shoud accuse WOODFERN of being a crook because you don't think the jersey is real.
well my words against urs ... i know for the FACT that BILLS did not wear iron on numbers NO BUT OR IF , now something is really bothering me .... the kelly bills throwback jersey is listing on ebay by WOODFERN, and u just mentioned u brought the jersey from him ??? he listed it yesteday......and be careful i didnt not accuse WOODFERN of being a crook :) and GF COA is not that good anymore .....
heres link
http://cgi.ebay.com/1994-JIM-KELLY-GAME-USED-BLUE-MESH-THROWBACK-JERSEY_W0QQitemZ250215153215QQihZ015QQcategoryZ868 29QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

mchmaj
02-12-2008, 12:02 PM
Marcus, I think you should do a little more research before public blasting anyone. I know you consider yourself a Bills expert, but that doesn't mean you shoud accuse WOODFERN of being a crook because you don't think the jersey is real.[/quote]
I DID some research on the BILLS throwback jerseys so do not assume as if i did not do a little more research... i think YOU DID NOT DO SOME RESEARCH and thats PROBLEM !!!
you be careful, i did not see anything that i did accuse WOODFERN, i am just posting the FACTS about the BILLS KELLY throwback jersey. I DID warned him that BILLS doesnt wear iron on numbers and he just did not listen to me :)
thanks
marcus

b.heagy
02-12-2008, 12:53 PM
can someone post photos of the jersey in question?. that may help.

G1X
02-12-2008, 12:55 PM
Marcus,

It appears that you are not clear on several issues being discussed.
1. Toddhead and WOODFERN are discussing a Bills throwback jersey that was made for use in the 1994 season. I cannot speak about the Bills throwbacks in 1994, but their regular-season jerseys in 1994 had screened-on numbers.
2. You stated that the Bills never wear ironed/pressed-on numbers. It is a well-documented fact that the Bills wore screened-on numbers for many years.
3. Toddhead did not say that he bought the Bills jersey from WOODFERN. He stated that he had bought a throwback jersey (obviously not this Bills jersey) from WOODFERN and the transaction went well.

If you have a problem with the jersey, please follow the Forum rules and address the Seller directly with your concerns. To accuse someone of adding numbers with no evidence to support your belief is horribly unfair to the Seller, and certainly not within the spirit or intent of this Forum.

If you can educate us with the facts and provide evidence of such facts, it would be most appreciated by all. Most importantly, to do so would have avoided the ugliness that has transpired in this thread. That's the reason the moderators set rules for posting - to hopefully avoid this type of thread.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mchmaj
02-12-2008, 01:56 PM
Marcus,

It appears that you are not clear on several issues being discussed.
1. Toddhead and WOODFERN are discussing a Bills throwback jersey that was made for use in the 1994 season. I cannot speak about the Bills throwbacks in 1994, but their regular-season jerseys in 1994 had screened-on numbers.
2. You stated that the Bills never wear ironed/pressed-on numbers. It is a well-documented fact that the Bills wore screened-on numbers for many years.
3. Toddhead did not say that he bought the Bills jersey from WOODFERN. He stated that he had bought a throwback jersey (obviously not this Bills jersey) from WOODFERN and the transaction went well.

If you have a problem with the jersey, please follow the Forum rules and address the Seller directly with your concerns. To accuse someone of adding numbers with no evidence to support your belief is horribly unfair to the Seller, and certainly not within the spirit or intent of this Forum.

If you can educate us with the facts and provide evidence of such facts, it would be most appreciated by all. Most importantly, to do so would have avoided the ugliness that has transpired in this thread. That's the reason the moderators set rules for posting - to hopefully avoid this type of thread.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
wow i must overlooked the toddhead's statement .. but i dont understand why he brought up about his deal with woodfern... the topic is about bills throwback jersey and its not any of woodfern throwback jerseys issues....
once again this topic is about bills throwback jersey question.....i dont care about woodferns business with anyone else... we all know that BILLS worn screened/painted on numbers , and dont we all agree that BILLS NEVER wear iron/pressed on numbers ??
thanks
marcus

G1X
02-12-2008, 02:50 PM
Marcus,

Some collectors interchange the terminology in describing "screened-on" numbers as some call it "ironed-on", some call it "painted-on", some incorrectly say "silk-screened" (an entirely different process), and I have even heard the term "rubberized" numbers. When I hear a collector say "ironed-on" numbers, I assume that the numbers are "screened-on".

With regards to WOODFERN's jersey, he offered it for sale in this Forum several weeks and you asked for photos according to that particular thread. WOODFERN has now put the jersey for sale on ebay.

Toddhead brought up his deal with WOODFERN because you have insinuated in this thread (your initial post) that WOODFERN probably added the numbers after he bought the jersey. Toddhead is stating a fact in defense of WOODFERN while you are stating a potentially damaging assumption that was not supported in your post with any concrete evidence or facts.

Do you not understand why WOODFERN is upset and Toddhead posted in WOODFERN's defense? It wasn't a question about the jersey iteself, but rather the suggestion that WOODFERN altered the jersey that stirred their posts and mine.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

toddhead
02-12-2008, 03:31 PM
http://www.computerwrestlers.com/images/banging_head.gif

mchmaj
02-12-2008, 03:40 PM
Marcus,

Some collectors interchange the terminology in describing "screened-on" numbers as some call it "ironed-on", some call it "painted-on", some incorrectly say "silk-screened" (an entirely different process), and I have even heard the term "rubberized" numbers. When I hear a collector say "ironed-on" numbers, I assume that the numbers are "screened-on".

With regards to WOODFERN's jersey, he offered it for sale in this Forum several weeks and you asked for photos according to that particular thread. WOODFERN has now put the jersey for sale on ebay.

Toddhead brought up his deal with WOODFERN because you have insinuated in this thread (your initial post) that WOODFERN probably added the numbers after he bought the jersey. Toddhead is stating a fact in defense of WOODFERN while you are stating a potentially damaging assumption that was not supported in your post with any concrete evidence or facts.

Do you not understand why WOODFERN is upset and Toddhead posted in WOODFERN's defense? It wasn't a question about the jersey iteself, but rather the suggestion that WOODFERN altered the jersey that stirred their posts and mine.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
the different terms of painted/screened on AND iron/pressed on, they are totally different style of putting numbers on the jersey, and yes i do agree that iron/pressed on is SAME thing with the SILK numbers and rubbering numbers.....

i already see the pictures of throwback kelly jersey and I ASKED SELLER THUR EMAILS before i posted on this FORUM so i DID FOLLOW THE RULES !!!
i told the seller that the numbers doesnt look right and BILLS never wears iron/pressed on numbers (SILK/rubbering like numbers)
I DID MY HOMEWORK AND RESEARCH... i assume this forum is to help each other but seem you are pushing me away and toddhead posted highway sign of man with computer, so this is a JOKE !?
i am trying to help people here and i explained to the seller about the numbers on the jersey, he just didnt show he cares and hoping someone will buy it without notice the numbers , then yet now hes listing it on ebay WITHOUT pictures, he tend not to list them with pictures, doesnt it brings up some questions ??? i do not question the sellers , BUT only the jersey itself
thank you
marcus

mchmaj
02-12-2008, 03:52 PM
i forgot to mention about the jerseys numbers. mostly importantly, when i saw the pictures, the major problem is the letters KELLY on the back is SCREENED/PAINTED ON the nameplate sewning on the jersey while the numbers are iron/pressed on (silk/rubberlike numbers) the jersey ....
that is what i came with the questions with the kelly throwback jersey
Whats more...... i saw the same blue BILLS throwback jersey with KELLY on the back on nameplate without numbers #12s with the same size 42 and year 1994 taggings from EBAY that was sold for maybe $150-$200 COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO. REMMY here i dont know if WOODFERY bought the kelly blank jersey from ebay ......
this is just information of facts i am sharing
marcus

mvandor
02-12-2008, 03:54 PM
the different terms of painted/screened on AND iron/pressed on, they are totally different style of putting numbers on the jersey, and yes i do agree that iron/pressed on is SAME thing with the SILK numbers and rubbering numbers.....

i already see the pictures of throwback kelly jersey and I ASKED SELLER THUR EMAILS before i posted on this FORUM so i DID FOLLOW THE RULES !!!
i told the seller that the numbers doesnt look right and BILLS never wears iron/pressed on numbers (SILK/rubbering like numbers)
I DID MY HOMEWORK AND RESEARCH... i assume this forum is to help each other but seem you are pushing me away and toddhead posted highway sign of man with computer, so this is a JOKE !?
i am trying to help people here and i explained to the seller about the numbers on the jersey, he just didnt show he cares and hoping someone will buy it without notice the numbers , then yet now hes listing it on ebay WITHOUT pictures, he tend not to list them with pictures, doesnt it brings up some questions ??? i do not question the sellers , BUT only the jersey itself
thank you
marcus
We may have language issues here, Marcus. It's clear english is your second language and that may be part of the reason why your posts come across as a bit "know it all" re: Bills' items, a bit rude and condescending, a bit arrogant.

mchmaj
02-12-2008, 03:58 PM
We may have language issues here, Marcus. It's clear english is your second language and that may be part of the reason why your posts come across as a bit "know it all" re: Bills' items, a bit rude and condescending, a bit arrogant.
you rather looking at english of writing on the forum THAN being BURNED with bad jerseys ??
i am just sharing the FACTS here, and i am BILLS expert and why cannot u respect that ?
thank you

toddhead
02-12-2008, 04:03 PM
Marcus,

You are very helpful with your insight of Bills jerseys, but you need to understand that your posts come across as very confrontational. It may not be how you are intending them to be, but that's the way they are coming across.

There is really no need to bring up the e-bay jersey because it is not the one in question. Every time you bring it up it comes across as you accusing WOODFERN of buying it, altering it, and trying to pass it off as the one he purchased from Grey Flannel a couple of years ago.

Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to help you understand how your posts are coming across. Maybe if you just focus on the jersey instead of WOODFERN this post will serve the original purpose it was intended to.

mvandor
02-12-2008, 04:06 PM
Marcus,

You are very helpful with your insight of Bills jerseys, but you need to understand that your posts come across as very confrontational. It may not be how you are intending them to be, but that's the way they are coming across.

There is really no need to bring up the e-bay jersey because it is not the one in question. Every time you bring it up it comes across as you accusing WOODFERN of buying it, altering it, and trying to pass it off as the one he purchased from Grey Flannel a couple of years ago.

Not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to help you understand how your posts are coming across. Maybe if you just focus on the jersey instead of WOODFERN this post will serve the original purpose it was intended to.

Agreed, what I was trying to explain to Marcus.

Unfortunately the only 94 Kelly on ebay has ZERO pics to even see the item or the Grey Flannel paperwork. Without that everyone including any prospective bidder is flying blind.

b.heagy
02-12-2008, 04:06 PM
can someone please post a photo of this jersey as it may be easier to follow. it is impossible to prove to anyone about the numbering if there is no photo to backup what is being stated. Marcus can you help with the photo's that were sent to you?

mchmaj
02-12-2008, 04:17 PM
i found the pictures from my email ..
i made mistake , its size 44 not 42, the ebay blank kelly on back throwback jersey is size 44 too, sorry for error...
heres pictures, includes GF COA
i asked the seller about the numbers and he told me the numbers are rubbering like/silk pressed/iron on and the KELLY is painted/screened on the nameplate...

mvandor
02-12-2008, 04:27 PM
Unfortunately, can't find useful pics of that one game in 94 and the quality of these pics are too poor to see or tell much. Can't really read the GF letter, tell materials, etc.

b.heagy
02-12-2008, 04:33 PM
The ebay jesey is the same size, same year and has a GF LOA, not the same?

mchmaj
02-12-2008, 04:33 PM
Unfortunately, can't find useful pics of that one game in 94 and the quality of these pics are too poor to see or tell much. Can't really read the GF letter, tell materials, etc.
i personally ASKED the seller about the numbers material compare with KELLY on the nameplate ,what he told me that the kelly is painted/screened on and the numbers #12 on front, back and sleeves are different than the KELLY and its in rubber like, silky numbers pressed/ironed on
thanks

mvandor
02-12-2008, 05:14 PM
i personally ASKED the seller about the numbers material compare with KELLY on the nameplate ,what he told me that the kelly is painted/screened on and the numbers #12 on front, back and sleeves are different than the KELLY and its in rubber like, silky numbers pressed/ironed on
thanks

I've had some exchanges with seller and he seems for some reason not to wish to add pics to the listings but rather to email them to requesting parties. Odd way to ebay IMHO.

The Titan
02-12-2008, 07:43 PM
Yea but they sell. he sold an Everett 1994 throwback and a Wilkinson Bengals throwback with no pics. Whatever the seller wants to do is up to him.

I bought from Woodfern, if asking for pics he's very personaly and friendly to give you what you ask for. how he wants to sell is his business.

Thanks for the jersey by the way. ;)

G1X
02-13-2008, 08:12 AM
Marcus,

It is very important in the context of this disucssion to know that the Kelly jersey that was listed for sale in this Forum several weeks ago is the same one listed on ebay. It is also the same Seller.

Also, it bears repeating what I stated in an earlier thread about terminology. Some collectors interchange the terminology in describing "screened-on" numbers as some call it "ironed-on", some call it "painted-on", some say "silk-screened", and I have even hear the term "rubberized" numbers. When I hear a collector say "ironed-on" numbers, I assume that the numbers are "screened-on".

I have known WOODFERN for a long time and am familiar with his collection of 1994 "throwback" jerseys that he is in the process of selling. The Kelly jersey has been part of his collection for a few years. I have not seen the jersey in person, so I will reserve any comments about it being "game-worn", but in conversations with WOODFERN over the years, I can assure you that he usues the term "screened-on" interchangeably with "ironed-on". In other words, it means the same to him. If he sees a jersey with "screened-on" numbers, he will often say "ironed-on".

Although the photos are not very clear, there is nothing that looks unique or unusual about the numbers. It is the classic Champion-style font as was typical of Champion jerseys manufactured in 1994, and the numbers appear to be the typical "screened-on" numbers of that era.

I hope this information is helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

dave8270
02-13-2008, 11:11 AM
the different terms of painted/screened on AND iron/pressed on, they are totally different style of putting numbers on the jersey, and yes i do agree that iron/pressed on is SAME thing with the SILK numbers and rubbering numbers.....

i already see the pictures of throwback kelly jersey and I ASKED SELLER THUR EMAILS before i posted on this FORUM so i DID FOLLOW THE RULES !!!
i told the seller that the numbers doesnt look right and BILLS never wears iron/pressed on numbers (SILK/rubbering like numbers)
I DID MY HOMEWORK AND RESEARCH... i assume this forum is to help each other but seem you are pushing me away and toddhead posted highway sign of man with computer, so this is a JOKE !?
i am trying to help people here and i explained to the seller about the numbers on the jersey, he just didnt show he cares and hoping someone will buy it without notice the numbers , then yet now hes listing it on ebay WITHOUT pictures, he tend not to list them with pictures, doesnt it brings up some questions ??? i do not question the sellers , BUT only the jersey itself
thank you
marcus


I have to disagree with you that the Bills never wore silk screened or iron on numbers. I have a 95 champion jersey and a 99 puma jersey of Phil Hansen. The numbers and letters on both of them are ironed/pressed/silk screened (however you want to say it). 1 jersey is directly from the Bills and the other is photomatched. They are also both verified to be gamers from Phil himself, who is a friend of mine. I am not claiming to be a Bills expert, but the jersey's I have look very similar to the pictures of the Kelly jersey, especially the 95 champion that I have.

Hope this helps a little.
Dave

mchmaj
02-13-2008, 11:41 AM
Marcus,
Also, it bears repeating what I stated in an earlier thread about terminology. Some collectors interchange the terminology in describing "screened-on" numbers as some call it "ironed-on", some call it "painted-on", some say "silk-screened", and I have even hear the term "rubberized" numbers. When I hear a collector say "ironed-on" numbers, I assume that the numbers are "screened-on".

I have known WOODFERN for a long time and am familiar with his collection of 1994 "throwback" jerseys that he is in the process of selling. The Kelly jersey has been part of his collection for a few years. I have not seen the jersey in person, so I will reserve any comments about it being "game-worn", but in conversations with WOODFERN over the years, I can assure you that he usues the term "screened-on" interchangeably with "ironed-on". In other words, it means the same to him. If he sees a jersey with "screened-on" numbers, he will often say "ironed-on".

Although the photos are not very clear, there is nothing that looks unique or unusual about the numbers. It is the classic Champion-style font as was typical of Champion jerseys manufactured in 1994, and the numbers appear to be the typical "screened-on" numbers of that era.

I hope this information is helpful.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
mark, why didnt you just listen to me ? ? i already provide facts and you still yet questioned me .......
i already MENTIONED that the SELLER TOLD ME HIMSELF that the KELLY letters on the back are DIFFERENT material than the NUMBERS on the JERSEY, SUCH AS the kelly and the stripes on each sleeves are painted/screened on and the #12s are different and they are like the shiny numbers as silk rubberlike "yes you are right the KELLY and stripes are different materials than the #12s" that what he said on the emails between us.
facts provided enough, mark ???
thank you very much
my problem with this forum , no one believes me what i have said about BILLS jerseys .... why is that so HARD ?? i got many primary sources of BILLS uniforms history, and whats more my BA is in history !!! so i know my research :) and i already proved some BILLS jerseys that are bad ones and some are good ones from the owners of the BILLS jerseys.....
marcus

mchmaj
02-13-2008, 11:51 AM
heres link of 1994 bills john fina game jersey on ebay
it speaks of itself .....
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320217624616&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011

i have sold 1995 PAUP #95 jersey on ebay couple of years ago and its heavy painted/screened on
not the iron on , i think you are right bills worn rubber like numbers maybe in 1998- 1999 season with PUMA or logo athetics... the iron on numbes is different because the rubber like numbers are softer and the iron on numbers are harder materials. good example of the iron on numbers, the 80s la rams and bears worn them ....

toddhead
02-13-2008, 12:02 PM
It's not that nobody believes you, it's just that you kind of come across as arrogant, so most people don't focus on the facts you are presenting... just the fact that you don't possibly think you can be wrong. I don't doubt that you are an expert in Bills uniforms, but I doubt the fact that you are 100% right all of the time. I have read some of your other postings and they are all the same... maybe if you took a more laid back, less aggressive approach to explaining the flaws in jerseys people post here you would get more discussion about the jerseys instead of time wasted with post like mine.

mchmaj
02-13-2008, 12:11 PM
yeah you are right, and this goes no where now. i am giving the white flag now and this will be be my last post about the bills kelly jersey. i am giving up so you guys calls whatever you thinks !
i have called "all in" with my chips with pocket of red aces.......anyone calls ?? :)
cheers
marcus

G1X
02-13-2008, 01:16 PM
Marcus,

I am not questioning your expertise on Bills materials. The only visual evidence you provided (the photos of the jersey) shows that the numbers and lettering are typical of 1994 jerseys made by Champion. Due to the way a number with trim is screened on to a jersey, it can look and feel like a different material than the lettering screened onto a nameplate and the sleeve stripes (due to the thickness, texture, etc.) This sometimes leads to confusion in terminology when describing a jersey, and this seems to be the case in this instance.

I called WOODFERN last night regarding this jersey. His description over the telephone and my observations of the photos leads me to reason that there is nothing unique or unusual about the numbers and lettering on this jersey. That's just my humble opinion based on his description to me and observing the photos. You feel otherwise based on your email exchanges, but this all seems to be a matter of not being clear on each other's terminology in email exchanges between you and WOODFERN as opposed to actual visual evidence indicating that something is incorrect with the numbers and lettering. Again, what one collector describes as "screened-on", another collector might describe as "ironed-on".

Please ignore for a moment the different use of terminology that has been discussed and look solely at the photos. If there is something that doesn't look right about the numbers and lettering, please share this knowledge with us.

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

WOODFERN
02-13-2008, 04:00 PM
Because I`m The Guy Selling This Jersey I Would Like To Add Something. There`s A Post On Here Stating There Is A 1994 John Fina White Bills Jersey Listed On Ebay. I Got A Closeup Of That Jersey`s Numbers And Compared It To The Numbers On The Kelly Jersey They Sure Look Like They Were Put ON The Same To Me. Maybe Its The Terminology. I Don`t Know. The Only Way To Be Sure Is To Have Both Jerseys In Front Me But By Looking At The Picture And Looking At The Kelly, The Numbering Looks Consistant With Each Other. As Far As How I List A Jersey On Ebay, I Don`t Have A Scanner To Show Pictues, So I Take A Picture From My Cell Phone And Foward It To My Email Address. I Clearly State That If Someone Wants To See A Picture Or Has Any Questions To Please Give Me There Email Address And I Will Gladly Foward The Pictures To Them And Answer Their Questions. I Want To Make That Clear. Is It The Best Way? Maybe Not. But, I Try To Be As Honest As I Can. There Still Is This One Person On This Forum Who Still Thinks I Won This Jersey An Added The Numbers. I Have I Little Bit More Sense That To Try To Do That. I WOULD DO THAT And Never Will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOODFERN
02-13-2008, 04:02 PM
Because I`m The Guy Selling This Jersey I Would Like To Add Something. There`s A Post On Here Stating There Is A 1994 John Fina White Bills Jersey Listed On Ebay. I Got A Closeup Of That Jersey`s Numbers And Compared It To The Numbers On The Kelly Jersey They Sure Look Like They Were Put ON The Same To Me. Maybe Its The Terminology. I Don`t Know. The Only Way To Be Sure Is To Have Both Jerseys In Front Me But By Looking At The Picture And Looking At The Kelly, The Numbering Looks Consistant With Each Other. As Far As How I List A Jersey On Ebay, I Don`t Have A Scanner To Show Pictues, So I Take A Picture From My Cell Phone And Foward It To My Email Address. I Clearly State That If Someone Wants To See A Picture Or Has Any Questions To Please Give Me There Email Address And I Will Gladly Foward The Pictures To Them And Answer Their Questions. I Want To Make That Clear. Is It The Best Way? Maybe Not. But, I Try To Be As Honest As I Can. There Still Is This One Person On This Forum Who Still Thinks I Won This Jersey An Added The Numbers. I Have I Little Bit More Sense That To Try To Do That. I WOULD NEVER DO THAT And Never Will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOODFERN
02-13-2008, 04:03 PM
I Made A Mistake Ending My First Post. It Should Be I Would Never Do That And Never Will.

mchmaj
02-13-2008, 06:09 PM
Maybe Not. But, I Try To Be As Honest As I Can. There Still Is This One Person On This Forum Who Still Thinks I Won This Jersey An Added The Numbers. I Have I Little Bit More Sense That To Try To Do That. I WOULD NEVER DO THAT And Never Will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

i dont still think you bought the jersey from ebay, it was already moved on :)
just that timing is funny because i found the RARE throwback BILLS jersey with no numbers and it has KELLY on the back on the ebay. whats more.... the jersey has SAME taggings of the size 44 and 35th anniv tags. it was sold couple of months ago on ebay.

THEN you posted kelly throwback for sale few weeks ago....that was the SAME TAGGINGS, colors, two stripes and KELLY on the back BUT your kelly had numbers and i did the math and that why i assumed. I am sorry and i was wrong.

Maybe there are few made throwback KELLY jerseys for the BILLS ?
can you send me an email picture of the auction date and close up COA picture of the jersey
take it easy woodfery :)
marcus

WOODFERN
02-13-2008, 08:45 PM
Marcus, I Don`t Have A Problem With That. I Do Need Your Email Address. I`ll Gladly Email You A Picture Of The Auction Catalog, The Jersey Listed In The Catalog And The Coa From Grey Flannel With The Pictures. I Can Tell You That It Was The Summer Games 2002 Auction, Date June 12th 2002. After I Send You The Pictures I Would Like To Move On. I`m An Honest Seller And I Try To Answer Peoples Questions As Best I Can And I`m Sure You Would Too. As I Said Earlier, I Would Never Buy A Jersey AnD Add Numbers And Try To Pass It On A Game Used. I Won This Jersey Ans Was Just Trying To Sell It. Have A Good One

nyjetsfan14
02-15-2008, 11:10 AM
yeah you are right, and this goes no where now. i am giving the white flag now and this will be be my last post about the bills kelly jersey. i am giving up so you guys calls whatever you thinks !
i have called "all in" with my chips with pocket of red aces.......anyone calls ?? :)
cheers
marcus

Marcus, I personally would like to thank you for by far the most entertaining thread of all time! They say laughter is a great cure for what ills a person and let me tell you...I am feeling pretty healthy by now! All in with my chips with pocket of red aces??? CLASSIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

mchmaj
02-22-2008, 03:31 PM
Marcus, I personally would like to thank you for by far the most entertaining thread of all time! They say laughter is a great cure for what ills a person and let me tell you...I am feeling pretty healthy by now! All in with my chips with pocket of red aces??? CLASSIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
guess what !? i have taken down my white flag and show you MY PROOF !
i met a new friend that has largest bills game jerseys collection....
he sent me attachment of pictures from 1994 MNF broncos and bills game, the BILLS worn throwback jerseys and i have PROOF that bills didnt wear the style that woodfern is trying to sell, WOODFERN check it out, maybe next time do your homework ?? and yes the jerseys came BLANKS and it was sold orignially from a guy name AL in FLORIDA then it has been handed to different buyers
heres pictures, it was took by my friend personally in the game in 1994 MNF

mchmaj
02-22-2008, 03:34 PM
guess what !? i have taken down my white flag and show you MY PROOF !
i met a new friend that has largest bills game jerseys collection....
he sent me attachment of pictures from 1994 MNF broncos and bills game, the BILLS worn throwback jerseys and i have PROOF that bills didnt wear the style that woodfern is trying to sell, WOODFERN check it out, maybe next time do your homework ?? and yes the jerseys came BLANKS and it was sold orignially from a guy name AL in FLORIDA then it has been handed to different buyers
heres pictures, it was took by my friend personally in the game in 1994 MNF
jetsfan, 3 people called me with my pocket of red aces and the flop is ace, ace, and 3 spade, i have won 4 of the kind :)my point of this texas holdem , once your GUTS telling u something fishy about the kelly jersey , FOLLOW YOUR GUTS !!!
i forgot to add pictures
here they are.....

b.heagy
02-22-2008, 03:37 PM
the stripes on the sleeves are different.

WOODFERN
02-22-2008, 09:56 PM
Marcus, I Knew I Hadn`t Heard The Last Of You On This Jersey. One Step Ahead Of You. After Further Review, It Has Been Determined That The Jersey Is Have Is Certainly Not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Game Worn And That It Appears A Mistake Was Made By Grey Flannel And Certainly By Me. Got That Marcus! I Have Come Across A Picture Of A Throwback Card Of Kelly Wearing The Blue Bills Throwback From That Game And Like In The Pictures From Your "new" Friend, It Shows The Same Descrepency With The Sleeve Stripping, Also The Sleeves Appear To Be Shorter. If There`s One Thing I`ve Learned, Is That Anyone Including Myself Who Bids On A Star Player From A Grey Flannel Auction Should Do Their Homework, And To Save Themselves From Being Futher Ridiculed By People Like You. Mistakes Are Made And I`m Sure You`ve Made Some Too. I Certainly Hope This Is The Last Time I Have To Post Anything To Defend Myself From, But, I`m Sure I Haven`t Heared The Last Of You.

WOODFERN
02-22-2008, 09:59 PM
Excuse Me. Heard From You.

mvandor
02-22-2008, 10:14 PM
Man, the english language and grammar in general took a real beating in this thread. Wood, why in the world do you capitalize each word, man? T'ain't right and it's hard to read.

G1X
02-23-2008, 12:40 AM
At this point, I think that everyone can agree that the jersey Kelly wore in the game does not match the sleeve stripes on WOODFERN's jersey. However, everything else looks to be correct on WOODFERN's jersey - number font, name-on-back, tail tagging, etc. With everything else appearing to be correct, perhaps the sleeves on the Kelly jersey (and other Bills players such as #81 in the photo) may have been shortened and tailored below the first group of stripes.

Marcus, since you were able to come up with some photos of Kelly from that game, can you or your friend provide some additional sideline shots or other action photos from the game that show numerous other Bills players. I am curious to see if anyone is wearing the full sleeves that include both sets of stripes (as seen on WOODFERN's jersey).

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mchmaj
02-23-2008, 12:30 PM
At this point, I think that everyone can agree that the jersey Kelly wore in the game does not match the sleeve stripes on WOODFERN's jersey. However, everything else looks to be correct on WOODFERN's jersey - number font, name-on-back, tail tagging, etc. With everything else appearing to be correct, perhaps the sleeves on the Kelly jersey (and other Bills players such as #81 in the photo) may have been shortened and tailored below the first group of stripes.

Marcus, since you were able to come up with some photos of Kelly from that game, can you or your friend provide some additional sideline shots or other action photos from the game that show numerous other Bills players. I am curious to see if anyone is wearing the full sleeves that include both sets of stripes (as seen on WOODFERN's jersey).

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net
the sleeves are NOT TAILORED ... that is what they worn during MNF against broncos, you still can see if the sleeves have been tailored, it still DOES NOT MATCH THE SLEEVES stripes with woodfern kelly jersey. you also can see the #81 left sleeve are tucked in while right sleeve is open and its regular sleeve as its not tailored....
i can ask for more pictures to give more proofs
thanks

mchmaj
02-23-2008, 12:39 PM
i forgot to add that my friend told me that the 1994 MNF game the bills worn darker blue jersey as throwback , its darker blue than the jersey that woodfern have.. he has kelly jersey in ROYAL BLUE while the bills worn close to navy blue jersey. you can see the pictures in the game and the pictures of woodfery(his pictures are bad but you can see royal blue color jersey very clear...) now the stripes, the red line is more thicker on woodfern jersey while the red line is more slim on the sleeves in the game photos. so if tailored, it makes no different :)
thanks again

G1X
02-23-2008, 09:25 PM
Marcus,

Maybe it's just me, but I am not seeing any difference in the thickness of the red stripes between WOODFERN's jersey and the game photos. In my humble opinion, the only difference in the jerseys is that WOODFERN's has two sets of the 3-stripe pattern while Kelly and #81 in the game photos only have one set of the 3-stripe pattern on their jerseys. That is the reason I was curious if perhaps some of the Bills had their sleeves tailored, and if any other Bills player can be seen wearing a jersey with both sets of the 3-stripe pattern.

Regarding the concern with the shade of blue, trying to match an exact color shade in various photographs can be deceiving depending on the lighting (day game vs night game, cloudy day vs sunny day, etc.), whether a flash was used, camera settings, method of developing the photos, printing methodology, etc. WOODFERN's photos are at least third generation photos, and the original photos were taken in a room where a flash was most likely used. That is an extremely different lighting setting as compared to a night game under lights bright enough for a color television broadcast.

Having spent many hours in a dark room developing photographs, I can state as fact that shades will not always look exactly the same depending on a variety of the above mentioned factors. Anyone who has taken a photo indoors with a flash understands that colors can be distorted. There are examples seen in newspapers and on the internet every day where the jerseys of a team can appear to be a different shade based on the lighting, angle of the photo, and other variable conditions as previously mentioned. Below is a classic example of two photos of the same jersey where it appears to be a different color shade because of lighting and other factors. This is extremely important to know when researching jerseys.

But enough of that as I don't think that explaining the science of photography is answering my question. Again, please see if your friend has any other photos where we can see the entire Bills sideline. I am curious to know from an educational standpoint if any Bills player can be seen wearing a jersey with both sets of sleeve stripes.

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mchmaj
02-23-2008, 10:14 PM
the answer is right there in the pictures....
you can see the guy next to kelly, and he was wearing sideline proline bills jacket. I am sure you can see its ROYAL BLUE ! and the jersey doesnt show any hint of royal blue color. whats more, study kellys game socks and you will see the different colors of blue. G1X, i am sorry your point is not valid...you need to study the this pictures more ...the redskins retro 70th anniv jersey pictures is FAR DIFFERENT than what i am trying to bring the point about kelly darker jersey VS woodfern royal blue kelly jersey. your two redskins pictures are MUCH THE SAME colors !
YES, i am working on getting more scans of diff players wearing same sleeves pictures....sidenote, he went to the game himself and he explained how much different between darker blue kelly jersey vs woodfern royal blue kelly jersey. i did sent him pictures of woodern kelly jersey and he was hoping i DIDNT buy it ...
thanks
marcus

G1X
02-24-2008, 01:33 AM
Marcus,

To say that my point is not valid is puzzling, especially after I gave a brief explanation of the many various reasons why shading can look different in photos. Are you saying that the two 'Skins photos are much the same color? A lot of folks, including myself, would not agree with you on that point.

Look closely at this photo from the Bills 1994 throwback game. It looks very close to the color of WOODFERN's jersey in my humble opinion. The jersey in this picture appears to be a lighter shade than the photos you provided.

http://i11.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/dc/10/ab89_1.JPG

We can agree to disagree about color hues all night long. I felt that I gave a very logical explanation of color variations in photos based on my experiences in the world of photography, plus I provided a valid photo example from my jersey collection. I think that I have further validated my point with the above photo from the 1994 throwback game. To even further substantiate my point, observe the below example of a Bills game-worn jersey of Jake Arians that is in my collection. Quite amazing how it appears to be an entirely different shade of blue based on the lighting used to photograph the jersey. I won't continue to belabor the point as I am confident that most readers understand this concept and realize that colors can be somewhat deceiving in photographs

I continue to believe that WOODFERN's jersey is correct other than for the second section of sleeve stripes, and if I see one Bills player from that game wearing both sections of the 3-stripe design, then I will feel comfortable that WOODFERN's jersey has a strong possibility of being a team-issued jersey. Most important to note is the way the stripe pattern seems to closely match on the underside of the sleeves (on the section of stripes closest to the shoulders on the WOODFERN jersey when compared to the above game photo).

But my question still has not been answered at this point. I want to know for educational purposes if any Bills player can be seen with the identical sleeve stripe design that is seen on WOODFERN's jersey. That is why I am requesting additional photos of the game so that I can see as many players as possible.

Any input from other Bills collectors or collectors with knowledge of this particular "throwback" style would be most appreciated.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

nyjetsfan14
02-24-2008, 02:55 AM
I continue to believe that WOODFERN's jersey is correct other than for the second section of sleeve stripes, and if I see one Bills player from that game wearing both sections of the 3-stripe design, then I will feel comfortable that WOODFERN's jersey has a strong possibility of being a team-issued jersey. Most important to note is the way the stripe pattern seems to closely match on the underside of the sleeves (on the section of stripes closest to the shoulders on the WOODFERN jersey when compared to the above game photo).

Mark, I have multiple 1994 NY Jets game worn throwbacks in my collection - both the white worn for one game and the green worn for two games. I have an extensive Jets photo data base to include many a 1994 throwback pic and I have a 1994 throwback game on DVD so I think I can speak definitively on the 1994 Jets throwbacks. The NY Jets had MULTIPLE completely disimilar sleeve stripe styles for their 94 throwbacks depending on the player and customization. Some sleeve stripes were screened others were not, some were thick and others were not! With the Jets throwbacks, a backup jersey of a particular could easily have varied in sleeve stripe design from the game jersey of the same player. And as it applies to color hue, the 1994 Jets green throwbacks vary slightly as well. If you would like photographic evidence of such feel free to e-mail me Mark and I'll send along some good stuff for you. God Bless America!

Matthew

toddhead
02-24-2008, 05:44 AM
Give it up guys... he'll never admit that he might be wrong... even a little bit.

nyjetsfan14
02-24-2008, 09:43 AM
Give it up guys... he'll never admit that he might be wrong... even a little bit.

Huh? I am not trying to prove anybody wrong on anything. I have no idea about Bills jerseys nor do I care about Bills jerseys...I specialize in Jets. I was only providing Mark (or any other football collector in general) with specifics that he might find useful in the future as it pertains to 1994 NY Jets throwbacks. My previous post has nothing to do with any of the other posters or their information, questions, or comments.

G1X
02-24-2008, 02:10 PM
Matthew,
Thanks so much for the information. Your point about the Jets jerseys is precisely the point that I am trying to relate as being a possibility with the Bills throwback jerseys worn in 1994.

One-game styles can be very difficult to research and authenticate when they don't end up in the collecting community, so it is best to dig out as many documented facts as possible, especially while the discussion is "fresh" on the table in this Forum.

My apologies to all if the science of photography, color, and lighting (and other side issues) seem to have derailed the discussion, but I felt that it was imperative to delve into those issues as they are very relevant due to some of the claims being made in this post.

At this point, I am appealing to anyone in the Forum to provide photos or review video of the Bills-Broncos 1994 throwback game (Monday Night Game of 9/26/94) to see if the Bills had variations in their sleeve stripes.

Thanks to everyone who has assisted thus far.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

nyjetsfan14
02-24-2008, 03:48 PM
At this point, I am appealing to anyone in the Forum to provide photos or review video of the Bills-Broncos 1994 throwback game (Monday Night Game of 9/26/94) to see if the Bills had variations in their sleeve stripes.

No prob Mark. Was that the only game the Bills wore the dark throwbacks? The Jets wore their green throwbacks twice - once at Miami and then later in the season at home vs. the Pats. They wore their white throwbacks only once, a week 4 Sunday nite home loss to the Bears. The anamolies/differences amongst the Jets throwbacks are vast. Some of the taller players (mostly lineman) had hybrid jerseys...the throwbacks with regular 1994 jersey bottoms sewn to the tail for extra length! Shoulder yolks differed, sleeve stripe style differed (as discussed earlier), color variations existed, etc...and that isn't taking into consideration backup jerseys which could have had different traits/customizations than the game jersey for a particular player (possibly for anticipation of different weather conditions, etc...). Of course, I am a Jets junkie and as mentioned have the throwback games on DVD and many photos from the games.

On the topic of anomolies, we are often quick to dismiss a jersey/helmet that doesn't match our immediate knowledge base. In my experience with Jets items I have seen vintage game photos of a player without a helmet logo, a Jets player (from the 1994 season ironically) with a helmet logo upside down, I have a photo of Al Woodall wearing a funky jersey that was a number 16 turned into his number 18 using pieces of other numbers, I have a photo of a 1960's Jets player wearing a Jets jersey with black trim which every Jets collector/fan knows wasn't done until the 90's, I have a photo of Jets players in the same game with different number AND font styles, and lastly I once told a collector the Jets never ever used Rawlings as a equipment supplier. Then one day I was going through my extensive Jets video library and found one singal game in which Ken O'Brien was sporting a Rawlings helmet - go figure! The point is back in the day things were less "sterile" than they are today. When an equipment manager lacked something he'd make a trip to the local sporting goods store or even borrow something from a local HS or college. A lot of these anamolies are extremely difficult/impossible to photo match because the amount of photos from those past eras are not as plentiful as they are now. Now if we are talking about authentic game issued items (which I believe are much more rare from past eras as they are today as I believe if a player from the 60's or 70's had a jersey there is a high likelihood he wore that jersey at some point) it is even more impossible. If I see an anamoly with a Jets jersey that I am not familiar with I don't automatically rule it out. This is where networking withing your specific aspect of the hobby help - having friends and fellow longtime Jets fans/collectors to bounce things off of is imperative as is an extensive resource base. Now if I could ever have a sit down with Bill and Clay Hampton I'd be set :-)

Sorry to take a very entertaining and humorous thread and ruin but just thought maybe my experiences might assist or relate to others.

God Bless America,
Matthew

G1X
02-24-2008, 09:26 PM
Matthew,

Thanks for the input. My understanding is that the Bills wore their blue throwback jerseys only in the Monday Night Game against Denver.

As a Falcons, WFL, and durene collector, and having made a few bulk buys from teams over the years, I can relate well to the anomalies. The things that come out of a team's equipment room can be simply amazing. Sometimes there will be a few items that are so out of the norm that I will not list them for sale unless I can match them in photos or film.

One of my all-time favorite photos is a Sports Illustrated shot of the Miami Dolphins' defense during the Super Bowl of their undefeated season. Some players are wearing jerseys with sleeve stripes, some are wearing jerseys with no stripes. Some players are wearing orange belts, and some are wearing aqua belts. Everyone in the photo is wearing black shoes except for Nick Buoniconti who is wearing white shoes.

Things tend to be more consistent in the current era, but anomalies can still be found. For example, Jim Yackel recently had for sale a 2005 black Falcons jersey of Rod Coleman that did not have the NFL equipment shield in the neck. Some collectors will quickly run from a jersey without the shield. The Falcons only wore the black jerseys twice in 2005, and if any naysayer would have spent a few minutes searching Getty Images, they would have matched a photo of Coleman wearing a black jersey without the shield. They would have also found other photos of Coleman from 2005 in both his white and red jerseys where no shield can be seen.

Please send me an email when you have a moment as I have some Jets questions that you can probably answer.

Thanks!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

lund6771
02-24-2008, 11:14 PM
if you guys want answers to every question concerning this game I would suggest to get a video of it

G1X
02-25-2008, 12:32 AM
lund6771,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have made that appeal in this thread and asked a few folks offline without any success at this point. I was hoping that a Bills collector or fan in this Forum could help out.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

lund6771
02-25-2008, 12:35 AM
I'm not a Bills fan or collector, but I'll check at work tomorrow if that one is available and get back to you

G1X
02-25-2008, 01:01 AM
lund6771,

Thanks so much!

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

lund6771
02-25-2008, 11:39 AM
I can get a video copy of this game...

petepeschel@qwest.net

nyjetsfan14
02-25-2008, 12:15 PM
if you guys want answers to every question concerning this game I would suggest to get a video of it

lund, as stated numerous times...I have no desire to have any questions answered about Buffalo Bills jerseys. I specialize in and only collect NY Jets. I was only relating my personal experiences with 1994 Jets throwbacks (and Jets jerseys as a whole) as maybe there is some crossover that might assist other types of collectors. Once again, my comments in this thread are not meant to prove anything right or wrong about Bills traits/customizations/variances/or anomalies because I have a very limited knowledge base and/or concern regarding Buffalo Bills equipment. My only hope was that maybe someone might find my personal experiences with NY Jets equipment helpful in some particular way.

lund6771
02-25-2008, 12:46 PM
Jets...was speaking generally

nyjetsfan14
02-25-2008, 09:35 PM
Jets...was speaking generally

LOL, my bad lund...didn't mean to seem so tightly wound. I just need a Michelobe and all will be well :D

lund6771
02-25-2008, 09:39 PM
jets...lol...i'm having a mich golden lite as we speak

G1X
02-25-2008, 09:54 PM
lund,

Thanks for tracking down a video of the game. I owe you a 6-pack of Michelobe Golden Lite for your efforts!

Please keep us posted.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

G1X
03-09-2008, 02:03 AM
Any further word on this topic?

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 10:39 AM
i do not really undersatnd , i alrady gave the proof , i gave you guys few pictures of the DIFFERENT bills throwback jersey.... and you still yet want more proof ?? hows that ?
by the way i am working on getting more pictures and trust me, they all are same sleeves , why would you think linemen, linebacker, or defense line worn different sleeves ???
thanks !

G1X
03-09-2008, 12:41 PM
Marcus,

My last post was intended for lund6771 who was obtaining a video of the game. I saw the photos of two different Bills players you posted, but keep in mind that there are 45 players who dress out each week (46 counting the emergency QB). As most NFL football jersey collectors know, not every player on a team exactly matched on where their sleeve were hemmed during that era.

I am quite surprised that you are asking the question in your previous post why linemen, linebackers, or defensive backs would wear different sleeves. Refer to nyjetsfan14's previous post, observe any photos of the 49ers wearing their throwbacks in 1994, or better yet, check out your team's regular season jerseys from 1994. Go to Getty Images and look at image #50730340 as an excellent example. I hope this answers your question.

No one is saying that you are incorrect about the Bills not having a second set of stripes on their jerseys in the 1994 throwback game against the Broncos. However, experience and examples from other teams leads some of us to at least want to investigate the possibility that some of the Bills may have worn jerseys that contained both sets of stripes (similar to WOODFERN's jerseys). I would feel very foolish to go on record as saying "never" without at least exploring the possibility by thoroughly researching this issue. Until the video of the game is observed, I don't think that any of us who have participated in this discussion can state as 100% fact that every Bills player in that game did (or did not) have only one set of stripes on their jersey.

So, let's wait for the verdict on the video before we come to any conclusions. Fair enough?

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 12:51 PM
yeah for sure it will be solved ASAP !
a friend of mine will send me an email more pictures of BILLS players wearing one stripe sleeves. and whats more he told me himself that they all worn one stripe sleeves but you guys need hardcore proof so i am getting pictures soon today !
thanks

G1X
03-09-2008, 01:01 PM
At this point, I will wait for the verdict on the video before I come to any final conclusions for my own peace of mind.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 01:07 PM
i dont care ! video tape of MNF game between bills and broncos means NOTHING !!! you will have hard time to see the sleeves because TV was not clear back then...
I HAVE 3 close up PICTURES that was took at the bills RICH STADIUM
you can see that the sleeves are different from each players, the loose sleeves got one stripe and the linemen, and linebackers worn TIGHTING BANDS SLEEVES THAT is ONE STRIPE SLEEVE.
the BILLS worn ONE STRIPE on sleeves so therefore the kelly jersey woodfrey sold is bad jersey

ACCEPT THE FACTS HERE that i was right at the whole time:)
thanks guys
marcus chmaj

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 01:08 PM
i dont know why pictures didnt go through
here they are....

G1X
03-09-2008, 01:20 PM
Marcus,

Please tell us that you are not serious when you say that the video means nothing. That is perhaps the most embarrassing and assanine statement I have ever read in this Forum.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 01:25 PM
what can u do with the video tape ??? the picture is blurry and you cannot see the sleeves clearly ...
IF YOU NEED VIDEO TAPE to find a player or name of player or numbers that players wears then it make sense .... BUT YOU NEED IT TO CHECK THE SLEEVES , TELL ME HOW !?
BUT now you dont need video tape because i already provided pictures.. thats why i said video tape means nothing now after i got the new pictures
smile !
have a super day !
marcus

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 01:30 PM
do not get me wrong , everyone would need video tape to find something , but my point telling G1X that video tape of bills and broncos MNF means nothing because i found 3 pictures of bills wearing throwback jerseys with one stripe sleeve. i am helping G1X to save time and not to waste time looking at 1994 video tape:)

nyjetsfan14
03-09-2008, 01:41 PM
Wow, just when you thought this thread was dead - it's baaaaack! I must admit, the more of chmaj and the less of us = better!

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 01:43 PM
i am hoping this will be last one for today and let it go !

nyjetsfan14
03-09-2008, 01:47 PM
Well if this is it what a run it was chmaj. The laughs, the smiles, the heartbeak, the tears...I'll miss it all LOL

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 01:57 PM
LOLOLOL
at least we did learn something here :)

G1X
03-09-2008, 02:02 PM
Marcus,

I've seen pictures of about 4 Bills. Of the 4 players, I noted that their sleeves appear to differ in the way they are hemmed/cut/tucked. That still leaves 42 players, so I will waste my time viewing the video.

Since many folks are able to discern sleeve stripes from grainy black & white coach's film taken from the top of the pressbox, I am sure that there will be no problem seeing if any Bills player had one or two sets of stripes in viewing the videos of the Monday Night telecast. I tend to trust what you are saying as the Bills are your team, but I would just like to be for certain before I go public with such a statement.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@veriuzon.net

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 02:07 PM
HELP YOURSELF !
you refuse to accept that i was right after all
way to go
marcus

G1X
03-09-2008, 02:29 PM
Marcus,

My intent is not to refuse to accept what you have said. I think that I have made myself painfully clear, and anyone reading my numerous, exhaustive posts, clearly understands my point. As I said in my last post, I tend to trust what you are saying as the Bills are your team

If you are taking all of this personally, my apologies as that is not my intent. Feel free to contact me offline if you continue have an issue as I don't think we are answering my question about the video by going around and around on the same issues.

I am hoping that the video proves beyond any further doubt that you are absolutely right, because it seems to be very important to you to be right.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

mvandor
03-09-2008, 02:54 PM
HELP YOURSELF !
you refuse to accept that i was right after all
way to go
marcusM, whatever your knowledge of Bills unis is, and it may be very substantial, it doesn't alter the fact that your people skills could use some work, my friend. Doesn't help you or the board population if you're abrasive and alienate others in making your points.

JMHO.

mchmaj
03-09-2008, 03:07 PM
woodfrey got the jersey from GF,and someone sent it to GF . what i am trying to say that the jersey is originally from a guy in florida, sidenotes, he sold more than 1 kelly throwback jerseys....theres other blank kelly on back only without any numbers sold awhile ago on EBAY so whats ODD of 2 bills throwback kelly jersey with error TWO stripes on the sleeves....

The bills throwback jerseys have only one stripe sleeves with TWO STYLES that has one with screened on/painted stripes on the into loose/open sleeves and other one is the tighting band with dye colors of white red white that sewn attached to the sleeves.

the points you should look at, why would BILLS order the cloth tighting bands on the throwback jerseys ? in the past the bills worn screened/painted stripes on the sleeves, IF any players wanted to tighting their sleeves, THE BILLS reopened the screened/painted stripes on the sleeves, and added the elastic bands inside the sleeves to tight it up. BILLS practiced that for awhile

my point of that, what i think that YOU STILL THINK bills throwback jerseys have two stripes on the sleeves, am i correct ? okay, why would BILLS ordered the cloth elastic bands IF the sleeves have two stripes, the BILLS would have cut the sleeves off and reopen the sleeves and add the elastic band inside and showed only one stripe sleeves.

that what bills praticed for long time, you can look at 1990 bills team, they worn two stripes on sleeves. for example kelly cut off his sleeves to be loose sleeves and it was left only one stripe on the sleeves, some other cut off and tighting it up with elastic bands but into one stripe sleeves or two sleeves. some players left two stripes open/loose sleeves. I CAN SEE THAT THEY HAVE TAILORING SLEEVES. for the 1994 bills pictures i have provided doesnt show any tailoring sleeves.

I am historian so i study pictures and research them very well. i have primary and secondary sources that provide back up information to the jerseys i am collecting...

I am not sure if i was correct, GF got issues with their authenting the jerseys in the past ?? seem someone didnt do their homework ?

to be clear here, kelly jersey woodfrey is AUTHENTIC JERSEY, its not game nor issued jersey.
thank you

gobills123
08-31-2017, 01:34 PM
back from the dead. Was a good read!!!

This has turned into my new grail. Good to know there are a 'few' out there... even if they do have the wrong sleeves....

gobills123
11-22-2017, 01:28 PM
I've used this thread a few times over the years are reference. Parts are very helpful. I wish I was aware of the site over the years as there are some serious information issues - but whats in the past is in the past and we can leave it be. Just worth mentioning if someone else come along looking at this for reference.

What is odd to me is other teams seem pretty easy to acquire a 94 throwback.
The Bills on the other hand, SUPER tough. I've only ever come across a blue fina, white delvin ( incomplete ) and have found a picture of a white Fina that sold at auction. I wonder why these are so difficult to acquire? Odd. Did other teams offer them at retail? The Bills never sold them in the Bills store, or had a 'retail' authentic jersey like their normal white/blue champion did. It seems that any that got out there were still coming from someone one the equpt staff or someone of the sort.

The Fina/Devlin are all cuffed. That picture of the Reich makes it look as though the 2nd stripe is hemmed - tucked and fastened on the inside - BUT if I were to guess I'd guess they were manufactured with 1 stripe, OR because its SO LONG, the 2nd stripe was sewn under. Either way the previous owner of this Kelly said it came from a 'connect' in the locker room. The Fina came from CL and the seller said his father had a connect with the locker room as well. Both came from CL, but were 2 totally different people. Seems there were many 'connects' back then.

Where things get weird for me is this.... I'm not aware of these being sold at retail. I've seen a black box that had a Bills 35th logo on the front that was speculated might have contained a jersey.

Kelly generally wore size 42, but as he got older his size (94-96) jumped to a 44.

Here is what I think is weird. Kelly wore this jersey and to my understanding the jersey he ACTUALLY wore isnt in a collection. I've seen 1 blue in a collection thats autographed and framed.... that is a double stripe. There is one displayed in the HOF in Canton that claims to be 'game worn'.... that has a double stripe. I'd guess neither of those jerseys are the one pictured with a COA earlier in this thread - that is double striped.

Now, with white - the one Kelly wore in the game was single striped. Same idea as the Blue. Personally, I've only ever come across/seen the one that I acquired the other day and a picture on the back of a 2001 Donruss Throwback Threads card (claiming it was game worn etc and obviously wasnt) and this was double striped as well.

Heres the weird part IMO... Bills jerseys from 91-96 that are actually legit from the locker room equpt staff SHOULD and WILL have a number on the inside 100% polyester tag. This is done a certian way and its easy to tell what someone has tried to fake and whats legit. Its some sort of inventory that doesnt directly correspond with the game it was used in other than a low # will be easier to find earlier in the year.

This white Kelly, that the previous owner had for 20+ years framed is a double striped SIZE 46 and the inside tag says #16 in the correct fashion.

Now, I knew going into this that this wasnt the 'hero' jersey so to speak and it wasnt what was worn. I dont care because frankly as a Kelly collector I try and get as many 'feelers' out there as I can and after acquiring the Gamblers one - a blue or white throwback became my pipe dream and white whale/ holy grail. Used or unused, a tough get and not one I thought I'd EVER own.

That #16 though... it got me thinking.
Whats more likely? The Bills made a limited edition jersey that was made with double stripes to differentiate that was then autographed and sold - say 35? (pick a number, just using that in case that black box with the 35 logo was what they were sold in - think the same type of box you see the top of the line Nike football gloves sold it) OR when everything was done they had a couple blanks and had them made up in house as KELLY (with no regard to size, but at least getting the cut right - unlike some charity jerseys from this period where they used a cuffed micromesh blank for a KELLY).

That #16 is the curious part.
I feel like even if it was a limited edition thing I'd have seen more of these over the years rather than just the 5 (blue/white combined) not counting the actual gamers. But as these games took place in weeks 3 and 4, its a weird # for sure.

I guess it also depends the extend of the abilities the Bills had to number on site. I know back in the day blanks were shipped and a local sports store would apply numbers and letters/plates - but since these all the the Champion font - maybe the plates were all that was done in house (which makes sense because preseason and bubble players always had the old sand knit font nameplates rather than the Champion.

http://i.imgur.com/6fpqAPC.png (https://imgur.com/6fpqAPC)
http://i.imgur.com/pCOBOl9.jpg (https://imgur.com/pCOBOl9)
http://i.imgur.com/DTXWUPx.png (https://imgur.com/DTXWUPx)
http://i.imgur.com/fBBuCGQ.png (https://imgur.com/fBBuCGQ)
http://i.imgur.com/LL8Q5ff.jpg (https://imgur.com/LL8Q5ff)
http://i.imgur.com/GEe7YS3.jpg (https://imgur.com/GEe7YS3)

gobills123
11-22-2017, 01:40 PM
http://i.imgur.com/1RhwvgN.jpg (https://imgur.com/1RhwvgN)

gobills123
11-24-2017, 10:24 AM
Mark, you were quite active in the 1st incarnation of this thread.
Have you since learned anything about this 94 throwbacks between now & then?
Have you seen anything similar with other teams?
Thanks for the help and time!

G1X
11-28-2017, 01:13 AM
Mark, you were quite active in the 1st incarnation of this thread.
Have you since learned anything about this 94 throwbacks between now & then?
Have you seen anything similar with other teams?
Thanks for the help and time!

I did not pursue this issue any further to save my sanity :eek:

In all seriousness, I never received the video of the game, so my interest died on the vine at that point.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

ALWAYS LOOKING FOR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS

gobills123
11-28-2017, 01:49 PM
Gotcha lol!!!
Ya, things looked pretty intense. Not to start anything, but its scary how much incorrect Bills info there is on this site. When 1st starting 7 or 8 years ago I used the few threads where you guys got into it pretty religiously in regard to basing rules for purchases etc. Through all the nonsense, there was some good info that served as a good starting point. Over the years there have been many times I've encountered something that was just incorrect though. From the great recycling debate to this, to even finding pics of a 1987 game where a few players actually wore the overlapping style of the Giants. I'd have bet $$ Bills game collars from that era all came to a V rather than overlap. Not the case.

Anywho, any idea as to why some teams are pretty easy to obtain throwbacks for? Conversely, why are some so hard? He may very well be a member here, but I ran into a collector whos long game was obtaining a home and away from each team from the 94 throwbacks. The Bills was the 1 team he couldnt seem to find. As i mentioned, I've only ever owned 3 and none were obtained through traditional channels, but rather someone who was hooked up from the locker room.

Which, brings me full circle to wondering if these Kellys were just made in house with extras to give people or if they made XX amount of these for various purposes. I've never run into anyone who knows sadly, so it may remain a mystery forever

genius
11-28-2017, 02:44 PM
My understanding is that many teams let their players keep their throwback jerseys from 1994 and being so long ago I doubt many would have looked at them as investment opportunities. Some likely have them displayed but my guess would also be that many would either be in storage somewhere or were discarded long ago. You might eventually see them start trickling out in player consignments to auction houses.

gobills123
11-28-2017, 03:11 PM
My understanding is that many teams let their players keep their throwback jerseys from 1994 and being so long ago I doubt many would have looked at them as investment opportunities. Some likely have them displayed but my guess would also be that many would either be in storage somewhere or were discarded long ago. You might eventually see them start trickling out in player consignments to auction houses.

That would make sense! Thanks for the thoughts. Its a shame other teams dont do what the Pats do. I know many 96-01 Bills jerseys are in tubs in storage that the a person associated with their alumni sells to make a few $$ here and there but I have no idea where the earlier ones are. They cant think very much of them though as 'something' was cleaned out last month and as a result a thrift store down the st (who seems to also get the dump when a coach or staff leaves) ended up with a bunch from the 80s ( had since been turned into practice jerseys so by no means the cream of the crop).

That said, I'm curious if each player was issued a gamer and a backup. There are multiple Kellys but the blue Fina I once owned was very clean and I had heard he had his in his collection. I get making multiples of a star player, but with respect to Fina... I cant see them running the presses with #70s. Interesting and probably correct reasoning why they dont tend to pop up.
Anyone noticed other teams whos throwbacks are incredibly hard to obtain?

genius
11-28-2017, 10:52 PM
Steelers 1994 throwbacks are extremely rare, have only seen two game worn. Have seen five or six backups/extras though. I did hear the players got both. Rod Woodson's gamer sold at auction if I'm not mistaken and his backup was at one time displayed in the Hall of Fame.

G1X
11-29-2017, 01:09 AM
I am not a Bills collector and don't really have a whole lot of knowledge in general about their jerseys. With regards to the 1994 throwback jerseys, the only teams that I can speak clearly about are Atlanta, San Diego, New York Giants, San Francisco, and Detroit.

ATLANTA - I had a huge Falcons collection at one point before liquidating most of it a few years ago. Back in the spring of 1995, I was invited to visit the equipment room. I asked about the 1994 throwbacks, and the equipment manager told me that they were given to the players. The Falcons played the Chargers in the Hall of Fame game that summer, and both teams wore their throwbacks (Falcons wore red, the Chargers wore white).

Many years later, I obtained a red throwback jersey of an offensive lineman (#76-Zeno) who played in that game but was cut before the regular season. I still have that jersey in my collection. Other than the red throwback of running back Erric Pegram (#33) that has been on eBay for an eternity, I have never seen another Falcons throwback in the hobby other than a few team-issued white Jeff George jerseys. I had a white George at one point, but I knew it wasn't game worn as the end of the sleeves did not match the one he wore at Washington (the only game where they wore the white throwbacks). This leads me to the assumption that the Falcons probably had some extras made up for charity purposes. Interestingly, when I was on my visit in the locker room, I was shown a rack of white 1995 jerseys for the upcoming season. There was quite a few Jeff George jerseys on the rack.

SAN DIEGO - A few of San Diego's jerseys ended up with Football Heaven which was a game-used helmet and jersey dealer in the 1990s and 2000s. He mainly specialized in helmets, and he had a connection with the Chargers to obtain helmets and jerseys. I ended up with a white throwback of defensive back Darrien Gordon (#21) that I no longer have in my collection. Other than the ones that Football Heaven obtained, I have not seen any in the hobby other than the many Junior Seau jerseys and a few Natrone Means back in the day when he was a star (similar to all of the Brett Favre Packers and John Elway Broncos throwbacks floating around out there.)

NEW YORK GIANTS - A number of these got out into the hobby. They are fairly easy to find as I currently have 5 in my collection.

SAN FRANCISCO 49ers - A company called Man of Steal had a deal with the 49ers and made these available to collectors. (Others in this Forum can probably provide more information on this than me.) I went to the Super Bowl in Miami where the 49ers trounced the Chargers. There was a memorabilia show that weekend in conjunction with the game, and Man of Steal was set up at the show with racks of 49ers throwback jerseys. I never purchased one from them, but I later ended up with a few over the years (both colors) but they have long since departed from my collection.

DETROIT LIONS - The Lions jerseys were auctioned off BEFORE the Monday Night Game where they wore the jerseys for the first time. I believe that it was Jim Hawkins, a major memorabilia dealer in that era who had also been a sport writer covering the Tigers for the Detroit Free Pres, who ran that auction. It was kind of a strange way to conduct an auction, especially not knowing who would be dressed out for the game. Whoever won the Anthony Carter jersey (big star at the time) had the misfortune of ending up with a team-issued jersey as Carter was injured and did not play in the game. The Lions ended up suiting up in throwbacks later in the season (maybe on Thanksgiving - can't remember for sure) and it was always my understanding that they had to obtain a new set since the first set had been auctioned off. The Lions had team sales several times back in those days, and my understanding is that some of the throwbacks ended up in those sales. Mabe a Lions collector or someone from Detroit can chime in with the facts as I am working on fuzzy memories and hearsay at this point. I had a nice throwback of #83-Aubrey Mathews that I really liked but is long gone from my hands.

Other 1994 throwbacks I've had over the years include a red Chiefs, white Saints, and a white Jets. The Chiefs jersey is especially interesting. Wayne Otto of Pro-Am Sports made a huge bulk buy from the Chiefs around 10 years ago. In that batch was some throwback jerseys. I am not sure if Wayne was attuned to this as the throwbacks were only slightly different than the style worn in 1994 (throwbacks did not have the sleeve stripes/cuffs).

This was probably way more information than most of you care to know. If you got this far, see below for photos of a few of the throwbacks I've owned over the years (Falcons, 49ers, Giants, Saints, and Chiefs).

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

PLEASE SELL ME YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!

Samets
11-29-2017, 08:09 AM
Mark,

Excellent post as always. This is what's great about this forum, we can all come together and share our knowledge.

As always, I can only speak for the Chicago Bears game used jerseys, so here's some info I wanted to share...

Chicago Bears must have been one of the more creative teams for the 1994 season as far as the throwbacks go... The team sold t-shirts with the throwback design, low, mid and high grade retail jerseys which ranged from screen printed numbers and going all the way to nice tackle twill sewn numbers. You could also walk into the team store and purchase a team issued jersey that looked 100% correct except some minor differences. Numbers and the name plate were created and applied at the store and for some reason they used different elements. You were literally purchasing a correctly tagged 1994 throwback with both tags, elastic sides and cuffed sleeves!!! I'm not sure what the price was but this was the ultimate level and priced accordingly I'm sure. See the last attachment for different styles sold. You can see in one of the pictures that high end store model butler had the name sewn directly on the back but when stepping up to the pro shop model, you got the name plate. As you can imagine, there are multiples of star players floating around in multiple sizes... I almost bought kickers jersey thinking it was the real deal but was proven wrong right on this forum...

I've been collecting Bears jerseys for a few years now and only was able to add a gamer in 2015 and it was not of a star player. Tory Epps (DT) only played one game in the jersey before being traded. It does exhibit all the traits of a real gamer. The 2nd throwback I purchased the night my 2nd child was born in 2016. This one is of a more famous player and it came directly from players family. It is also photomatched and shows use (all 3 games) with team repairs.

I have not seen photos of another game used 1994 Bears gamer before or since. People claim to have one and when pressed for photos, they flake out or are sitting on a nice team issued/pro shop model.

Bears gave the throwbacks to the players at the conclusion of the season.

Here's some eye candy of the two that I own:

Samets
11-29-2017, 08:15 AM
Forgot to add...

Bears also wore special style pants in gold! The team still has all of them and I've been trying to get a pair for my jerseys...

gobills123
11-29-2017, 10:31 AM
WOW!!!! GREAT POSTS GUYS!!!!!

Thank you, I really enjoyed reading those - VERY informative.
Those throwback pics from Mark and Samets are pretty amazing as well. Fantastic looking jerseys!

Mark, one thing i didnt follow was the Falcons used their throwbacks again for the hall of fame game the following season in 95? Was this an all new set then? Obviously the roster wouldnt be the same and it would be heavily expanded if that game took place in the spring back then as it does now. That seems like a LOT of extra Falcons throwbacks out there so that makes me think I misunderstood you.
The rack of whites you saw, were they all throwback George? or if a year later, just all regular white George that were made for charity/sale etc.
I think I read here some teams had to have a different supplier for the throwback sets? Was there ever a reason or theory as to why this took place?
Also, I've always kinda wondered about the non M&N 'issued/game cut' Favre and Elways out there. Were these just mass produced retail versions or at the time did the team just make a bunch that were sold similar to the Bears story?

Speaking of the Bears story... man- that AWESOME!!! I WISH the Bills did something similar. I was 10 in 94 and was just awestruck with these throwbacks. I thought jerseys in general were cool (as evidenced by my drawings from back then. They always had the the NFL shield at the neck and Champion C logos on the sleeves lol) but I remember my parents inquiring to local stores selling jerseys as well as the Bills store itself trying to find SOMETHING throwback to no avail.

Its REALLY neat that the Bears offered T shirts and different level replica/authentic for purchase. That said, I'm surprised you dont come across these more often if they were avbl for public/retail purchase. What were the small differences between the store and the game jerseys? were the lower level Champion jerseys as well? Very cool the Bears had the foresight to offer something like that as now its a given (and maybe even done FOR the prospect of sales) but back then it obv wasnt taken advantage to its fullest potential for a marketing/sales standpoint. Oddly, that 6 on the kicker jersey looks like an upside-down 9. That was the one you said was a retail, right?

Champion really knew how to make a jersey. The detail and how that appears to be made is REALLY cool. As was the double tagging - tagging done right! Bills jerseys from these years didnt seem to have double tags if it was a mid season order, were Bears done that way too?

Over all, really cool stuff!!! I love talking and learning about these 94 jerseys as they really were ahead of their time as this was kind of the beginning of the 'throwback' trend - and for us jersey heads- thats kinda special.

gobills123
11-29-2017, 10:56 AM
So, i wanted to break up these posts as the last one was responding to prior responses. This is a new batch of questions (not pertaining specifically to the Bills, but used as an example because Im familiar)...

This talk of the Bears pro Shop making the top of the line ones for sale....
I always guessed the jerseys (like back in the day) came to the team blank and they applied #'s on site. When I think about it though, since ALL/MOST legit Champions have that 'Champion Font' - were they numbered/plated during manufacturing and sent out to the team? I ask bc when the Bills had preseason or quick roster adds, the name plates dont have the Champion font but rather the same style/font from back when they were wearing Sand Knit - which makes me think they were only capable of making that style on site.
So, if they DIDNT make jerseys on site, how do things like THIS exist?

http://i.imgur.com/u9DNEHX.png (https://imgur.com/u9DNEHX)

This particular shirt came from Fleer when they went bankrupt. It was a jersey they bought as game worn and would have been sliced and diced for cards - but obviously wasnt due to them ceasing operations. Font is right, name plate font and length is right, and heck - even the micro mesh and cuffs are right for the Bills BUT dont jive with Kelly as he never wore micromesh, nor did he wear this cut furnishing the cuffed sleeves. I'm sure it was just a charity shirt as there were a ton (different from the 'authentics' sold in the Bills store) but I was always curious if it came from Champion or this was a blank made up in house (again needing correct font etc). If by chance it was, then why the funky sand knit font for newbies as I mentioned earlier. Hopefully someone with another Champion wearing team cane shed some light on this - I'd REALLY appreciate it lol.


Lastly, when I got my white throwback Kelly in hand I was amazed at the sleeves. Normal Bills/Kelly gamers were streamlined as the need to cut the bottom stripe to open flexability ended in the 1990 season (prior to champion redesign with nfl shield and making things a bit more 'uniform'). You still saw double stripes rocked by players after this, but they were just old/recycled jerseys.
I wondered if the game jerseys had this issue as well and after finding a pic of Kelly in action, it is apparent that they did indeed had these HUGE shoulder/sleeves. Infact, it may be the reason they only played with 1 stripe.
No matter if they were just tucked and hemmed, chopped off ( I STILL cant tell and it drives me nuts) or were manufactured with 1 stripe (in which case Champion would have had to manufacture something TOTALLY different as all the Kellys in this thread have 2 stripes - those long sleeves and 2nd stripe were/would have been quite restrictive. I TOTALLY see why they wore only the 1 stripe (however the stripe subtraction took place) and I'm starting to lean towards cut or hemmed because the reason the shoulder/sleeve parachutes like that almost seems to be the 2nd stripe!!!!

Normal Bills jerseys only had 1 and didnt have this issue. The following pics show the extra piece of fabric added in the armpit area so the sleeve could be this way and have an extra stripe. Its ironic then it was eliminated bc it appears the entire pattern of the jersey construct was altered to adjust to this. To me, the close up looks like the 2nd stripe might be folded under and sewn/hemmed on the inside rather than cut but it looks like it might exist rather than manufactured w 1. Anyone else see that?

http://i.imgur.com/OpCCN8a.png (https://imgur.com/OpCCN8a)
http://i.imgur.com/U2VPcqv.png (https://imgur.com/U2VPcqv)
http://i.imgur.com/uxXtunt.jpg (https://imgur.com/uxXtunt)


Lastly, I'm not sure if it was all teams, but another reason i think these look great is because they didnt do the dazzle shoulders and went back to the old way of the double later mesh, the same material of the rest of the jersey- just doubled up.

Good stuff, and any thoughts on the above are appreciated!

G1X
11-30-2017, 01:35 AM
Mark, one thing i didnt follow was the Falcons used their throwbacks again for the hall of fame game the following season in 95? Was this an all new set then? Obviously the roster wouldnt be the same and it would be heavily expanded if that game took place in the spring back then as it does now. That seems like a LOT of extra Falcons throwbacks out there so that makes me think I misunderstood you.

The rack of whites you saw, were they all throwback George? or if a year later, just all regular white George that were made for charity/sale etc.

I think I read here some teams had to have a different supplier for the throwback sets? Was there ever a reason or theory as to why this took place?

Sorry for the confusion. I was about as clear as mud in that explanation. That's what happens when I start writing essays after midnight!

To clarify, the Hall of Fame Game I was referencing was played in 1994 (July 30). The Falcons wore their red throwback jerseys in that game and again on September 18 in a regular season game at home against the Chiefs. They wore their white throwbacks in Washington the following week (September 25).

As for the rack of Jeff George jerseys that I saw in the Falcons equipment room in the spring of 1995, those were regular season white road jerseys intended for use in the 1995 season. The main reason the equipment manager was showing me the jerseys is that the Falcons had made a slight change to their white jerseys for the upcoming 1995 season (added a black trim to the collar).

As for different suppliers providing the throwbacks, the only team that I am aware of that used a different supplier for its throwbacks was San Diego. The regular season jerseys were Starter and the throwbacks were Russell. Here are the teams I am familiar with and can positively identify the suppliers:

Atlanta - Russell
Buffalo - Champion
Chicago - Champion
Dallas - Apex
Denver - Wilson
Detroit - Apex (their non-throwback jerseys worn in the first part of the season were Wilson as they didn't start wearing the Apex jerseys until later.)
Green Bay - Starter
Kansas City - Wilson
Los Angeles Rams - Russell
Miami - Wilson
Oakland - Starter
Philadelphia - Russell
Pittsburgh - Starter
New Orleans - Champion
New York Giants - Apex
New York Jets - Champion
San Diego - Russell on throwbacks and Starter for non-throwbacks
San Francisco - Wilson
Seattle - Wilson
Washington - Starter

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

Samets
11-30-2017, 09:28 AM
Also, I've always kinda wondered about the non M&N 'issued/game cut' Favre and Elways out there. Were these just mass produced retail versions or at the time did the team just make a bunch that were sold similar to the Bears story?

As far as the Favre throwbacks are concerned...
There are about three dozen known out there in the hobby. Top-notch forgeries which had been introduced to the market by... the Green Bay Packers.
In 1998, Grey Flannel Auctions contracted with the Packers for the club to provide custom jerseys for an auction. The Packers took thirty-six unused jerseys supplied to the team by Ripon Athletic, but not actually issued by the team to any player, and "re-purposed" them with Favre numbers and nameplates.
I borrowed that from the Green Bay Packers Uniform Database. Read the whole story here! (http://packersuniforms.blogspot.com/2009/05/more-on-forged-favre-gamers-shades-of.html)




Its REALLY neat that the Bears offered T shirts and different level replica/authentic for purchase. That said, I'm surprised you dont come across these more often if they were avbl for public/retail purchase. What were the small differences between the store and the game jerseys? were the lower level Champion jerseys as well? Very cool the Bears had the foresight to offer something like that as now its a given (and maybe even done FOR the prospect of sales) but back then it obv wasnt taken advantage to its fullest potential for a marketing/sales standpoint. Oddly, that 6 on the kicker jersey looks like an upside-down 9. That was the one you said was a retail, right?

Champion really knew how to make a jersey. The detail and how that appears to be made is REALLY cool. As was the double tagging - tagging done right! Bills jerseys from these years didnt seem to have double tags if it was a mid season order, were Bears done that way too?


From what I've gathered myself and other collectors...

Logo Athletic seemed to have made the t-shirts and low end jerseys. Some even had the 1994 75th anniversary patch. Then you stepped up to the Nike's offerings. I've seen a few variations of them. On the higher end ones, Nike had the players name sewn directly to the back of the Jersey. You can see it in the Butler I showed above and the Zorich below.

Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...

As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did... I bet the seamstress had a template that was followed and the ones doing the retail side were done with close enough mentality... I've also included some side by sides of Pro shop versions next to the actual gamer.

gobills123
11-30-2017, 10:47 AM
Amazing pics!!
Crazy LA AND Nike got involved on the throwback train.
IMO, neither look even close to as nice as the Champion ones though.
It looks like a lot went into making those as well w all the pieces etc.
So, maybe this was done differently bc the Bears had sewn numbers but for reg season stuff, do you know what the normal protocol was for jerseys getting numbered? We're the already done upon arrival? Or blank and then numbered by the team?
I think the Jets had gone to sewn numbers by then... maybe the Bengals too? Off the top of my head I can't recall another team using screened number champion jerseys at the time. If there was, maybe an expert from THAT team would know if the screened ones showed up already done to maintain the Champion font.
I know the Bills were one of the last if not THE last to use screened numbers. After the Champion 87 port hole mesh set, all remaining champion and the sprinkled in Apex were screened until 97 when they went to WILSON, followed by logo athletic, puma and finally Reebok. After a few years of red white and blue screen print jerseys they changed to those hideous dark blue ones and brought in sewn numbers. The fact that each of the brand changes prior to that and after champion had different fonts as each company had a different style would lead me to guess they came to the team already #d... but again. I have no idea.

Anywho, thanks again for sharing those cool pics. I'm not a Bears guy but it's really fun and pretty neat to learn about stuff I had no idea about. Again, just amazes me the Bears were so far ahead of their time with this!

gobills123
11-30-2017, 02:31 PM
Sorry for the confusion. I was about as clear as mud in that explanation. That's what happens when I start writing essays after midnight!

To clarify, the Hall of Fame Game I was referencing was played in 1994 (July 30). The Falcons wore their red throwback jerseys in that game and again on September 18 in a regular season game at home against the Chiefs. They wore their white throwbacks in Washington the following week (September 25).

As for the rack of Jeff George jerseys that I saw in the Falcons equipment room in the spring of 1995, those were regular season white road jerseys intended for use in the 1995 season. The main reason the equipment manager was showing me the jerseys is that the Falcons had made a slight change to their white jerseys for the upcoming 1995 season (added a black trim to the collar).

As for different suppliers providing the throwbacks, the only team that I am aware of that used a different supplier for its throwbacks was San Diego. The regular season jerseys were Starter and the throwbacks were Russell. Here are the teams I am familiar with and can positively identify the suppliers:

Atlanta - Russell
Buffalo - Champion
Chicago - Champion
Dallas - Apex
Denver - Wilson
Detroit - Apex (their non-throwback jerseys worn in the first part of the season were Wilson as they didn't start wearing the Apex jerseys until later.)
Green Bay - Starter
Kansas City - Wilson
Los Angeles Rams - Russell
Miami - Wilson
Oakland - Starter
Philadelphia - Russell
Pittsburgh - Starter
New Orleans - Champion
New York Giants - Apex
New York Jets - Champion
San Diego - Russell on throwbacks and Starter for non-throwbacks
San Francisco - Wilson
Seattle - Wilson
Washington - Starter

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

as always, great info...

I wonder why SD had to go w/Russell, especially as your list shows that (and we had discussed GB) starter was willing make throwbacks!

G1X
11-30-2017, 10:53 PM
as always, great info...

I wonder why SD had to go w/Russell, especially as your list shows that (and we had discussed GB) starter was willing make throwbacks!

The Chargers used Russell in 1993, so perhaps they had already made arrangements to have Russell make the throwbacks before deciding to switch to Starter. Maybe a Chargers collector on here can shed more light on this.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

G1X
11-30-2017, 11:08 PM
As far as the Favre throwbacks are concerned...
There are about three dozen known out there in the hobby. Top-notch forgeries which had been introduced to the market by... the Green Bay Packers.
In 1998, Grey Flannel Auctions contracted with the Packers for the club to provide custom jerseys for an auction. The Packers took thirty-six unused jerseys supplied to the team by Ripon Athletic, but not actually issued by the team to any player, and "re-purposed" them with Favre numbers and nameplates.
I borrowed that from the Green Bay Packers Uniform Database. Read the whole story here! (http://packersuniforms.blogspot.com/2009/05/more-on-forged-favre-gamers-shades-of.html)

From what I've gathered myself and other collectors...

Logo Athletic seemed to have made the t-shirts and low end jerseys. Some even had the 1994 75th anniversary patch. Then you stepped up to the Nike's offerings. I've seen a few variations of them. On the higher end ones, Nike had the players name sewn directly to the back of the Jersey. You can see it in the Butler I showed above and the Zorich below.

Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...

As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did... I bet the seamstress had a template that was followed and the ones doing the retail side were done with close enough mentality... I've also included some side by sides of Pro shop versions next to the actual gamer.


Thanks for sharing all of the great information about the Bears throwbacks and the photos. It's really scary to see how close the high end team shop jerseys are to the game-worn jerseys. The information you provided about the Favre throwbacks is also very valuable as it explains how so many got out into the hobby.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

Samets
12-01-2017, 07:25 AM
Thanks for sharing all of the great information about the Bears throwbacks and the photos. It's really scary to see how close the high end team shop jerseys are to the game-worn jerseys. The information you provided about the Favre throwbacks is also very valuable as it explains how so many got out into the hobby.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

Anytime!.

gobills123
12-01-2017, 10:43 AM
ya, seriously great stuff guys - both of you!

I've found some really interesting stuff via search (the young 94 for a boat trade was my favorite) where some of this was mentioned in bits and pieces.
Sorry for anything you guys had to repeat - but even though this shied away from Bills stuff its still GREAT info and very good to know.

The very last thing I'd like to ask you guys (and i assume it just got lost in my barrage of questions)....


Were numbers done in house for your respective teams? I know the bears used champion and I think the Falcons did too (91ish?)
Bears were sewn so it might be different. But I'd think to keep the 'champion font' correct and consistent the jerseys would come already numbered.


depending on what you guys think - either way it explains things and opens more questions at the same time.


Thanks again for the help!!!

Samets
12-01-2017, 10:59 AM
My understanding is that all Bears jerseys even now are purchased as blanks in requested sizes.

gobills123
12-01-2017, 07:30 PM
Ok, makes sense.
I know the Bills are blanks now as well.
To me, that's interesting for screen printed teams....
I wonder how champion made sure all the numbers were uniform and the correct font. It didn't occur to me (but it's painfully obvious) that the Bears never partook in that don't as they have always had their unique number thing going on - which is the coolest font going imo.

G1X
12-01-2017, 11:32 PM
ya, seriously great stuff guys - both of you!

The very last thing I'd like to ask you guys (and i assume it just got lost in my barrage of questions)....


Were numbers done in house for your respective teams? I know the bears used champion and I think the Falcons did too (91ish?)
Bears were sewn so it might be different. But I'd think to keep the 'champion font' correct and consistent the jerseys would come already numbered.


I don't know if the Falcons did the numbers in-house. They used Russell from 1975 through 1996 with the exception of the 1991 season when they used Champion and the 1990 pre-season when they wore black Champion jerseys before going back to Russell for the regular season. The #81 jersey below is from the 1990 pre-season, and the #85 jersey is from the 1991 regular season (tail was hemmed, so the tags are missing).

To confuse matters a bit, in the 1990 pre-season, several players wore the same number in the early preseason due to the size of the roster. Where players wore the same number, it appears that one wore Champion and the other wore Russell. I stumbled onto this when I wound up with a Russell jersey of #73-Oliver Barnett that showed game use. He and offensive lineman Reggie Redding both wore #73 in the preseason. Barnett ended up wearing #72 in the regular season while #73 was assigned to Redding who ended up not dressing for a regular season game until the following season. Ironically, at one point I also had a white jersey assigned to Redding for the 1990 regular season.

On a side note, the Falcons names were always sewn onto the plate dating back to 1970 (when names were first placed on the back of their jerseys) except for the above mentioned Champion jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

gobills123
12-04-2017, 10:31 AM
Good looking jerseys!!
Thanks for sharing!
Excellent Falcons info too, and what a great time back then. Just all these little things like you mentioned keep you on your toes and provide other things to hunt and learn. There isnt much of that now days with Nike and all lol.

If you dont know, I'm not sure I'll ever find out. At some point I'd imagine things went away from the local sports store as it was back in the day.

As I said, coming pre #'d would make sense and explain some things but conversely, if thats the case, then it would also greatly expand whats considered 'team' issued.

Regardless, your falcons post provides the icing on the cake to this thread and i appreciate it.
There is very little to none as far as info on Bills throwbacks are concerned and googling brings one here. Hopefully the info you guys posted will help the next person trying to learn and understand how it worked with the Bills and other teams. Weird stuff.... but SUPER fun!!!

sixburgh
12-20-2017, 10:45 AM
Hello, for quite a few years now I have been admiring many of you guys' collections and soaking up info when I can but other than a handful of exceptions, I mostly stick to retail authentics and team issued jerseys so I can rarely contribute.

However, in this case, I thought some of you may be interested in seeing my '94 Bears jersey after reading Samets' very informative posts early in this thread.
This is a Shaun Gayle I acquired from the parents of Shaun's long term girlfriend, Rhoni, (you may be familiar with that unfortunate story) that he had given to them.
Although the sleeves suggest it was not meant for use on field, the extra length and correct font seem to also rule it out as being the kind sold at retail according to the 2nd page of the thread.

88665
88666

Although the Steelers '94 TBTC is a grail of mine (seemingly unattainable, please help), I always loved the look and construction of the Bears jerseys from that season.
That, combined with the fact that Walter Payton and the '85 team made me fall in love with football and Gayle being the only member of that defense still in CHI in '94 makes this one of my favorites.
I'm already excited to see what teams pull out of the archives for the 2019 100th ann. season.

I also had a question regarding the '91 Falcons Champion jerseys.
Were the identifiers screen printed or heat pressed?
I thought screened but saw a Favre rookie (GF auction, I believe) that said vinyl was used.

Mark? Anyone?

Samets
12-20-2017, 11:15 AM
sixburgh,

You have the Pro Shop model. As you pointed out, the sleeves do not have the elastic band added and the chest numbers look too small for a gamer.

Never-the-less, it's the first Gale throwback I've personally seen!
It's still a nice jersey and cost more than any other retail out there.

I hope you don't mind me stealing your pic for my personal files...

sixburgh
12-20-2017, 12:01 PM
Thanks, Samets

Sure, feel free to copy the pics, happy to contribute.

At first, I believed the font to be the same as a gamer but now that I review the pics again I suppose they are not.

However, it has the 'EXTRA LENGTH '+4"' tag inside that I've never seen on any of my retail Champions.
The 'C' on the sleeves are also the larger gamer version too, embroidered in I believe, rather than the smaller logo with the royal border and sewn on that is seen on retails.

Obviously, you are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am but my theory is, because of those details and considering it came directly from Gayle, that the jersey itself may have been sourced from the locker room and the customization done at the Pro Shop, making it a hybrid of sorts?

Btw, did you see the Conway on eBay listed for 40K?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-1994-CHAMPION-CHICAGO-BEARS-80-CURTIS-CONWAY-AUTHENTIC-GAME-JERSEY-SIZE-44-/222751112203?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

Samets
12-20-2017, 02:24 PM
sixburgh,

Here's my take on these jerseys from a previous post:


...Champion jerseys were only available through mail order or teams pro shop. I'm not sure how this whole thing worked but there are jerseys of players with straight sleeves (more retail and casual wear or QB cut at the time) and some that are cuffed correctly (game wear for most players). Maybe they had multiple tiers? Maybe these were team blank leftovers and you bought based on size you wanted and received whatever they had left? I don't know...

As you can imagine, the devil is in the detail. For whatever reason, the numbers done by the pro shop (mail order/retail) seem to be slightly off sized and placed differently then what the team seamstress did...

You own a team issued jersey owned by the team that was a blank. Pro Shop customized it within 98% of what the team seamstress would have made.

The differences are minor but consistent. Can you actually do me a favor...
Can you take a nice photo of the 75th anniversary patch and post it...

I don't own any issued throwbacks but want to see something... I'll share my conclusion obviously...

sixburgh
12-20-2017, 05:27 PM
Here you go, the biggest size I could attach...
88677

Here is the inside tag, I was actually mistaken about the extra length, there is just what looks like a 'B' written.
I think the small number and vertical stripes make it look longer and I must have seen the '+4"' on one of my NBA Champion jerseys.
This is one of the first jerseys I bought when I started truly collecting about 10 years ago and forgot/confused some details.
88678

So if the only difference is the "C" on the sleeve maybe it is just a Pro Shop jersey, my apologies.

Also, just to be clear I wasn't challenging your knowledge at all. I'm only trying to learn. I'd hate to think my first posts were rubbing a long time member the wrong way.

G1X
12-21-2017, 02:05 AM
I also had a question regarding the '91 Falcons Champion jerseys.
Were the identifiers screen printed or heat pressed?
I thought screened but saw a Favre rookie (GF auction, I believe) that said vinyl was used.

Mark? Anyone?

I am not quite clear on the description that "vinyl was used". The Falcons numbers and lettering on the Champion jerseys they wore in 1991 (also wore black Champion jerseys in the 1990 preseason) are what I typically describe as being screened-on like most Champion jerseys of that era. Hope that helps.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

I AM BEGGING FOR YOUR WORLD FOOTBALL LEAGUE UNIFORMS!!!

sixburgh
12-21-2017, 03:28 AM
Thanks

Most jerseys are screen printed, a process where actual ink and a stencil is used like in the pic below...
88686

Depending on the technique, this can result in small holes left in numbers or not, even before use, sometimes only in certain areas as I'm sure you have noticed on jerseys before.
88687
The ink will also bleed through the mesh and can be seen from the inside of the jersey.

Heat pressed vinyl identifiers are just that, cut out vinyl numbers/letters applied with heat, basically ironed on.
The '80s & '90s Rams, as well as the early '80s 49er jerseys, appear to have done this, often resulting in a glossy look.
88693
88690
88689

Here is actually a perfect example on this Bears jersey (not an original Wilson but a '90s reproduction made at the Sand-Knit/Ripon factory btw) as it shows both methods, with the stripes being screen printed and the letters vinyl pressed.
88691
You can see here from the inside only the screen printing is visible due to it having been applied in a liquid form and seeping through the holes in the mesh.
88692

Samets
12-21-2017, 07:55 AM
Thanks for the pics.

As I suspected it's a 100% legit jersey. The reason I asked to see the patch is because there's a hidden message on it. Many of the non team issued jerseys are missing the hidden feature.

If you look at the base of the 7 you will see 3 letters: HAY That's a nod to Ralph Hay who is credited with the creation of NFL.

Samets
12-21-2017, 08:18 AM
...to be clear I wasn't challenging your knowledge at all. I'm only trying to learn. I'd hate to think my first posts were rubbing a long time member the wrong way.

Please feel free to challenge my knowledge! and don't feel like you're going to rub me the wrong way. We are all here to share and learn.

Some of the things I wrote are hearsay and speculation based on observations from other collectors. Many of those things seem to line up perfectly though...
I've spoken to owners of Chicago Bears regarding these throwbacks and other jersey anomalies and I've gotten some fun stories but no concrete facts. No one ever gave a damn about the equipment...

I own a Wilber Marshall (http://cbgu.webs.com/apps/photos/album?albumid=15323032) jersey that still has the 1983 GSH patch on left chest. George Halas dies on October 31st and the family decides that they will honor him with a patch to be worn for the remainder of the season. 1st up were patches for the road games with next game being played on November 6th just a few days away... Brian McCaskey relayed this story since it was vivid in his mind. He and other equipment guys at the time were burning the midnight oil to get the patches heat pressed onto all jerseys for the game... It was so bad that the home jerseys feature a sewn on patch that is different form the road game...

gobills123
12-28-2017, 12:32 PM
Thanks for the pics.

As I suspected it's a 100% legit jersey. The reason I asked to see the patch is because there's a hidden message on it. Many of the non team issued jerseys are missing the hidden feature.

If you look at the base of the 7 you will see 3 letters: HAY That's a nod to Ralph Hay who is credited with the creation of NFL.

I've always wondered what the qualifications of the HAY were... and by that I mean as far as Bills stuff is concerned EVERY period piece ( champion retail, mail order, team shop etc) with the 75 patch has had it. Obviously repos/knockoffs, anything throwback NOT from that period has not had it.
My assumption has always been anything FROM 94 was a HAY patch and they didnt discriminate regardless of the destination for shirt. Gamer/Retail = same.
Its very interesting that you've found that not to be the case. Not that it really matters one way or another in the grand scheme - just neat.

On a different note, thanks for sharing the Bears throwback pic!! I'll bet that was cool for Samets to see as I'd be stoked if a Bills throwback came out of the wood work. Of note (and FULL disclosure obv rules dont apply to different teams and this is just an observation of the 100+ Bills gamers from 91-96 I've owned or seen) I find it interesting that there is anything at all written on the inner tag. Its not like a RULE per se ( as I always say the 1st rule about 80s and 90s Bills gamers are.... there are NO rules lol) but name plate length and other tells aside - there seem to always be a number (on very few occasions a letter as well) in the same hand writing on the jerseys that have been in the Bills possession. This is prob attributed to HOJO's inventory etc but its pretty matter of fact. Fakes stick out like a sore thumb bc you can get to tell how he wrote his 2s and 4s etc as well as the type of pen used.
I've never seen a retail, team store, mail order from this period with any writing on the opposite side of the inspection sticker or the 100% side.
No clue how the Bears did things - but now im curious as to what the writing means :) another mystery in a thread full of mysteries!!!! :)

gobills1212
01-22-2018, 10:42 AM
So, for whatever reason I go 10 years finding 1 throwback for the Bills.
In oct I was able to buy back an old issued white one I had sold, and Nov got lucky with the Kelly.
Those were both white. I had a blue Fina once I traded for a Jim kelly handwarmer jersey.
The fact someone was willing to trade a rare star jersey for a scrub throwback jersey kinda shows how hard these things really are to find.
Anytwho, out of the blue I get a text from a buddy and $200 later I'm the proud owner of this bad boy.
Sadly, the jersey is trashed. I generally dont buy this condition but figured I'd be kicking myself down the line if I didnt. At least it has some cool alterations.
So now, the Throwback Bills jersey total is at 3:)

http://i.imgur.com/hJCWQ94.jpg (https://imgur.com/hJCWQ94)
http://i.imgur.com/ZMzIHjg.jpg (https://imgur.com/ZMzIHjg)

gobills1212
01-22-2018, 10:49 AM
I also found this which I found interesting and for less than the price of a tank of gas I figured I'd pick it up.
No idea what the Chargers did for retail etc, but I just found it odd this didnt have the neck tag but did have a 2nd jock tag flap.
No NOB, but a cool looking jersey.
Anyone know what it is?

http://i.imgur.com/UWbT5SA.jpg (https://imgur.com/UWbT5SA)

Thanks

sox83cubs84
01-22-2018, 08:26 PM
It looks to be a version of the 1994 Chargers road Throwback jersey of QB Stan Humphries. Numbers on front are smaller than they should be but still is a good looking non-game jersey.

Dave Miedema

gobills1212
01-23-2018, 10:34 AM
Thanks Dave!

I didnt even take into account the #'s, but after seeing the blue gamer I knew this wasnt worn as Humphries did something odd to his neck on that jersey.
Although pics of his white one look absolutely huge like he is swimming in it - the cut here isnt a 'tube' as most gamers are so I knew we obviously arent dealing w a gamer here.
I guess what i just found confusing is (and Russell isnt my 'jam' like Champion - so im not as familiar) there is no neck tag nor was there one like just about every other Russell Ive seen.
The construct is also top notch and feels much more heavy duty than Russell Replicas I've been around. I was just curious if anyone knew if there were different levels of Chargers retail a la the Bears like SAMETS was kind enough to show us. And were there a slew of these replicas made for a few years or more of a limited release around 94? All players or just select?I doubt anyone knows but I'd be interested in learning as the other teams discussed in this thread has been VERY interesting.
Thanks for the help and thoughts!!

gobills1212
11-26-2019, 10:14 AM
89891898928989389894

I found this bad boy a couple weeks ago. Very interesting because I'd never come across a Rams one before. I've seen pics of a couple Bettis issued and a Conlan issued but not much else is out there. This has a repair as well and is in pretty decent shape. As more time has gone by, I find it interesting that some 94 throwbacks of random players seem to go for the same price as regular ones from the same year - while others have a premium and can get quite expensive. Odd how that works and I see no rhyme or reason. This was a just a random come up - but I like how there are guys who seem to specifically collect throwbacks. When they decide they are over it, all of a sudden Ebay gets a nice selection. The night this was posted on one of the apps, a different seller had a retail Starter Raiders 94 TB which was interesting because I was not aware LA had retail authentics made. Samets, of note, over the summer I saw a poster on Let Go who had a 94 Butkus throwback that looked to be a Champion but it was in a frame. I guess you never know where they'll pop up!

G1X
12-01-2019, 09:56 PM
Great acquisition! That's a sharp looking jersey - one of my favorite throwback styles from 1994. Thanks for sharing the photos.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange

Always looking for 1974 & '75 World Football League Jerseys