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View Full Version : Historic Auctions - '05 Matsui - Steiner issues



kingjammy24
02-13-2006, 11:03 PM
The jersey:

http://www.historicauctions.com/index.cfm&fuseaction=search.List&auctionid=31667

Hideki Matsui 2005 Game Used Jersey
Auction Number: 31667
Current Bid: $6,019.65
Start Time: Nov 18, 2005 10:00:00 AM
End Time: Jan 2, 2006 12:34:43 PM
Number of Bids: 8
LOA - Lou Lampson

The description makes no mention of any Steiner documentation, certificate, or hologram. Images of the jersey don't seem to show any Steiner hologram.

The Steiner response:
"...That jersey, in all likelihood, is NOT what it is being represented as. Yankees-Steiner Collectibles is the ONLY source for authentic game used and game issued Yankees jerseys. We had possession of the only 2005 Hideki Matsui game used jerseys. If the jersey does not come with the Yankees-Steiner hologram or letter of authenticity, then in all likelihood it is not real. .... And one other note, if the person who bought the jersey would like to find out if it is real or not, it can be sent in to Yankees-Steiner, where we will be able to locate the invisible coding that goes into each game used Yankees jersey."

Rudy.

island_style
02-14-2006, 03:21 AM
The jersey:

http://www.historicauctions.com/index.cfm&fuseaction=search.List&auctionid=31667

Hideki Matsui 2005 Game Used Jersey
Auction Number: 31667
Current Bid: $6,019.65
Start Time: Nov 18, 2005 10:00:00 AM
End Time: Jan 2, 2006 12:34:43 PM
Number of Bids: 8
LOA - Lou Lampson

The description makes no mention of any Steiner documentation, certificate, or hologram. Images of the jersey don't seem to show any Steiner hologram.

The Steiner response:
"...That jersey, in all likelihood, is NOT what it is being represented as. Yankees-Steiner Collectibles is the ONLY source for authentic game used and game issued Yankees jerseys. We had possession of the only 2005 Hideki Matsui game used jerseys. If the jersey does not come with the Yankees-Steiner hologram or letter of authenticity, then in all likelihood it is not real. .... And one other note, if the person who bought the jersey would like to find out if it is real or not, it can be sent in to Yankees-Steiner, where we will be able to locate the invisible coding that goes into each game used Yankees jersey."

Rudy.

Invisible coding? Had no idea that was part of Steiner's authentication process. Good to know, though, and this should help with verifying Yankees jerseys.

suave1477
02-14-2006, 10:12 AM
Dear Members, I am extremely familiar with Steinersports items. As you can see I am currently selling 5 game used bats with Steiner COA'S on ebay. As far as this jersey is concerned I would have o agree with Steiner and vouch that the likelyhood of this jersey is not real. Is it possible sure it is but unlikely. Since 2005 Steiner has exclusive right to all the Yankees game used stuff. They also have exclusive right to whatever waqs stored in Yankees Stadiums basement pre 2005. It is possible someone could have stolen out the back door Matsuis's jersey but unlikely since it is all now documented and under security watch.

Good Eye Sports
02-14-2006, 04:03 PM
As a collector/dealer dealing primarily with Japanese players items, I agree. I will not touch a Matsui jersey post 2004 that does not have Steiner paperwork. I have been consulted by many collectors regarding the Matsui jersey in question, and the first redflag was the space between the bottom of the rear tail of the jersey and the bottom of the '55' was much shorter than the one Steiner offered. I did not even have to use Professor Rudy's photomatching techniques to see this; it was obvious to the naked eye! :)

As many know, most and possibly all,(I have no proof all of them are but all of the ones I have handled were) pro-cut Majestic jerseys are longer than retail jerseys. The 0062 tagging is not the only difference, b/w retail and pro-cut hence the reason why Ichiro who wore all sorts of 46 and 48 from 2001-2004 but now wears a 44 in Majestic.

Goh

kingjammy24
02-14-2006, 05:18 PM
A fake jersey may be among the least of your problems.

Purchasing/selling a 2005 Yankees "game used" jersey without Steiner certs may result in legal action from Steiner and/or the Yankees.

I'm surprised Lampson didn't warn Historic Auctions of these possible
ramifications.

Rudy.

suave1477
02-14-2006, 08:57 PM
KingJammy why would lampson warn Historic Auctions he's the one who authenticated it!!!!!!!!

Frank
02-17-2006, 05:11 PM
A fake jersey may be among the least of your problems.

Purchasing/selling a 2005 Yankees "game used" jersey without Steiner certs may result in legal action from Steiner and/or the Yankees.

I'm surprised Lampson didn't warn Historic Auctions of these possible
ramifications.

Rudy.

Rudy,

I have nothing against you, but your obvious dislike for a company coupled with a lack of 'Steiner documentation, certificate, or hologram' does not automatically make a jersey fake. Unless you have some additional proof, I don't see how you could arbitrarily claim this.

Additionally, I would love for someone to PLEASE tell me what legal action or recourse Steiner thinks they have if someone resells a Yankee's jersey without documentation, certificate or hologram. The transaction between Steiner and the purchaser of a jersey from them would only between those two parties and not between Steiner and a third party. If a jersey is resold, Steiner has no civil remedy or contractual agreement with the third party. If someone can provide additional information pertaining this, I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Frank

trsent
02-17-2006, 05:22 PM
Steiner has nothing to do with it, whoever said that was wrong.

Now, if you mess with The New York Yankees, that is a whole new can of worms. I believe The Yankees have had eBay auctions ended for game used jerseys without proper documentation.

kingjammy24
02-17-2006, 06:02 PM
Hi Frank,

Let me address all of your issues one by one:

- I have no dislike, obvious or otherwise, for Historic Auctions. The truth is I have absolutely no experience whatsoever in dealing with Historic Auctions, as such I have no reason to either dislike or like them. I haven't a clue as to how you came to this conclusion.

- Regarding the Matsui's legitimacy: As you know, the Yankees and Steiner entered into a formal contract in 2005. Roughly stated, this agreement provides "exclusive access" to game-worn and game-issued equipment from the Yankees to Steiner. Steiner has expressly and specifically claimed to have taken possession of all of Matsui's 2005 game-used jerseys. While the odds are that this is entirely true, I recognize that there is a slight possibility that a game-worn Matsui was somehow snuck out the back door. In other words, while possible, it is unlikely that an '05 Matsui without any Steiner docs is legit. It is not simply me claiming this, it's Steiner as well. For me to infer that when a jersey shows up and has not come from a company that has exclusive access to this jersey, that this jersey may not be legit is hardly "arbitrary". My sentiments were a reflection of Steiner's comments regarding this specific jersey.

- Regarding your comments about the legal recourse available to Steiner in this case: I'm not a lawyer, nor do I pretend to be one. Without getting into details, in terms of the possible legal action in this case, I was simply relaying information given to me by Steiner. If you're curious as to the intimate and specific details of their possible recourse, I would suggest that the best person to ask would be them.

Additionally, I have heard first hand accounts of people who have faced legal action from the Yankees for selling certain Yankee items. I'm unaware of all of the specific legalities which comprise the Yankees/Steiner contract. However, given the action of the Yankees in the past in this area, it would seem likely that a sale such as this Matsui jersey may incur "legal issues". Whether those issues are specifically brought by Steiner or the Yankees, I'm unsure. I specifically mentioned Steiner in my post because, as I said earlier, I was simply relaying what they told me in very certain terms.

Rudy.

kingjammy24
02-17-2006, 06:13 PM
Joel,

Steiner said it. They may be wrong.

I suppose I assumed that Steiner had a better idea of their legal recourse
than you or I or Frank.

An idea: perhaps, according to the contract, Steiner is granted full, legal ownership of the jerseys after the season is over so any jersey that is "snuck out" is legally the property of Steiner? Just a thought.

Rudy.

kingjammy24
02-17-2006, 06:17 PM
Frank,

re: legal recourse:

If a jersey is re-sold, it retains the Steiner hologram. Steiner certs don't disappear if a jersey is re-sold. I don't believe we're talking about a jersey that did indeed come from Steiner and was simply re-sold amongst private parties a few times. If we are, did the Steiner hologram fall off? Did all of the Steiner docs disappear amongst the transactions, to the point where no mention is made of them at all in the description?

By the way, there may be the assumption that the Yankees own these jerseys. I would offer that it's possible that past a certain point, Steiner may be the entity that is granted ownership.

Rudy.

Frank
02-18-2006, 02:17 PM
Frank,

re: legal recourse:

If a jersey is re-sold, it retains the Steiner hologram. Steiner certs don't disappear if a jersey is re-sold. I don't believe we're talking about a jersey that did indeed come from Steiner and was simply re-sold amongst private parties a few times. If we are, did the Steiner hologram fall off? Did all of the Steiner docs disappear amongst the transactions, to the point where no mention is made of them at all in the description?

By the way, there may be the assumption that the Yankees own these jerseys. I would offer that it's possible that past a certain point, Steiner may be the entity that is granted ownership.

Rudy.

Rudy,

While it may not be clear why someone would remove a Steiner hologram or destroy the cert, that doesn't mean that someone won't or hasn't. I'm not at all defending Historic Auctions because I've never dealt with them and I've never seen the Matsui jersey but just because the jersey they sold doesn't carry Steiner's hologram doesn't automatically make the jersey a fake.

I agree that once the Yankee's sell the jerseys to Steiner, Steiner becomes the owner. However once Steiner sells them to an individual or company and that individual or company resells it, there isn't anything to prevent the purchasing 3rd party from removing the hologram and reselling it.

I actually spoke with two attorneys regarding this matter and they said the only recourse Steiner may have is if a company or individual was buying stolen property from an equipment manager and they had knowledge they were stolen. However, if that company or individual resells the jerseys as real and the purchaser resells again, as long as the purchaser has no knowledge they were stolen, the purchaser can resell the jersey as they so please.

There are enough rumors and know-it-alls in the industry as it is. Letís all try to get our facts together straight before we just automatically claim something is fake or claim that a jersey is required to carry a hologram.

Rudy, thanks for your discussion on all of this. Any thoughts?

Frank

suave1477
02-18-2006, 06:14 PM
Frank on behalf of the other members, no one claimed it was fake or not real, that was you. Not anyone else. Frank you made a good point about getting facts straight. Please try to read posts thoroughly!!!

kingjammy24
02-20-2006, 11:44 PM
Frank,

"..it may not be clear why someone would remove a Steiner hologram or destroy the cert, that doesn't mean that someone won't or hasn't."

It seems extremely unlikely, if not ludicrous, to think that someone would pay a substantial premium in order to obtain a piece with great provenance, and then intentionally remove the hologram and "destroy the cert". It's almost beyond the realm of any sort of logical behavior. While anything is technically possible, is this in the least bit likely?

Frank, the overwhelming likelihood is that this jersey bears no Steiner hologram or certs because it did not originate from Steiner, not because someone decided to destroy solid provenance.

".. there isn't anything to prevent the purchasing 3rd party from removing the hologram and reselling it."

There also isn't anything to prevent me from emptying my savings and literally flushing them down the toilet except that it seems highly improbable and borderline insane. You're seriously suggesting that someone legitimately bought the Matsui from Steiner, paid the substantial premium to obtain a "Steiner Yankees" jersey (Steiner's places a rough value on such a jersey at approx. $15k), deliberately removed the hologram, consigned it to Historic, and due partially to the consequent lack of Steiner provenance which they intentionally destroyed, they took a financial loss of thousands of dollars? I think this is slightly less likely than me winning next year's Cy Young.

".. as long as the purchaser has no knowledge they were stolen, the purchaser can resell the jersey as they so please."

Here you imply the jersey might be stolen. Regardless of who becomes legally liable for a stolen jersey, what buyer in their right mind wants to purchase a jersey that was possibly stolen from the Yankees? Perhaps a buyer naive enough to think they'll be able to keep the jersey after the Yankees find out.

"Letís all try to get our facts together straight before we just automatically claim something is fake.."

Frank, so far you've proposed 2 "alternatives" to my theory:
1) the jersey was purchased from Steiner but the buyer intentionally destroyed all the Steiner certs. A theory about as plausible as the ice cream in my freezer coming alive and singing a medley of mariachi tunes.

2) the jersey was stolen from the locker room. While much more plausible than the first theory, I still don't believe this is the most likely scenario. If it turns out to be correct though, I feel sorry for the buyer.

Frank, you wanted to concentrate on "facts". Here are a few:

fact: Steiner entered into a formal business contract to acquire all of the '05 Yankees gamers
fact: Steiner confirms they received all of the '05 Matsui's
fact: Steiner placed holograms on all of the Yankee gamers they sold in 2005/06. As well, each came with Steiner certs.
fact: The odds of someone buying a Steiner jersey and intentionally removing the hologram and certs are extremely slim.

If these facts seem "arbitrary" or insignificant to some, then I'd love to know what they'd consider to be some genuine warning flags.

While I agree that facts are paramount, I think think that highly unlikely scenarios don't do much to help validate a "highly unlikely" jersey (which is all I ever referred to it as). At a minimum, we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Rudy.

Frank
02-22-2006, 02:06 AM
Frank,

"..it may not be clear why someone would remove a Steiner hologram or destroy the cert, that doesn't mean that someone won't or hasn't."

It seems extremely unlikely, if not ludicrous, to think that someone would pay a substantial premium in order to obtain a piece with great provenance, and then intentionally remove the hologram and "destroy the cert". It's almost beyond the realm of any sort of logical behavior. While anything is technically possible, is this in the least bit likely?

Frank, the overwhelming likelihood is that this jersey bears no Steiner hologram or certs because it did not originate from Steiner, not because someone decided to destroy solid provenance.

".. there isn't anything to prevent the purchasing 3rd party from removing the hologram and reselling it."

There also isn't anything to prevent me from emptying my savings and literally flushing them down the toilet except that it seems highly improbable and borderline insane. You're seriously suggesting that someone legitimately bought the Matsui from Steiner, paid the substantial premium to obtain a "Steiner Yankees" jersey (Steiner's places a rough value on such a jersey at approx. $15k), deliberately removed the hologram, consigned it to Historic, and due partially to the consequent lack of Steiner provenance which they intentionally destroyed, they took a financial loss of thousands of dollars? I think this is slightly less likely than me winning next year's Cy Young.


You totally missed my point here. I wasn't saying that it is likely that someone would remove a cert from a jersey for which they paid a considerable amount of money. I was more speaking on the legality of someone removing the hologram once it has been purchased. It is not illegal to remove a hologram or destroy a cert once the jersey has been purchased. Because of this, you cannot assume that a jersey without a hologram or cert is automatically a fake.




".. as long as the purchaser has no knowledge they were stolen, the purchaser can resell the jersey as they so please."

Here you imply the jersey might be stolen. Regardless of who becomes legally liable for a stolen jersey, what buyer in their right mind wants to purchase a jersey that was possibly stolen from the Yankees? Perhaps a buyer naive enough to think they'll be able to keep the jersey after the Yankees find out.



Again, you are missing my point. I'm not implying that this specific jersey is stolen. I know nothing of this specific jersey and where it came from. Again, I was speaking about the legality of a 3rd party purchaser.





"Letís all try to get our facts together straight before we just automatically claim something is fake.."

Frank, so far you've proposed 2 "alternatives" to my theory:
1) the jersey was purchased from Steiner but the buyer intentionally destroyed all the Steiner certs. A theory about as plausible as the ice cream in my freezer coming alive and singing a medley of mariachi tunes.

2) the jersey was stolen from the locker room. While much more plausible than the first theory, I still don't believe this is the most likely scenario. If it turns out to be correct though, I feel sorry for the buyer.



Although your attempt at humor was inane and while unlikely that the certs were destroyed, it doesn't negate the fact that it is entirely possible they were. Regardless of someone's intention or your singing ice cream, the fact of the matter is that Steiner has no recourse or civil action in regards to a jersey that doesn't bear their certs. You are entirely misunderstanding what I meant by my post.





Frank, you wanted to concentrate on "facts". Here are a few:

fact: Steiner entered into a formal business contract to acquire all of the '05 Yankees gamers
fact: Steiner confirms they received all of the '05 Matsui's
fact: Steiner placed holograms on all of the Yankee gamers they sold in 2005/06. As well, each came with Steiner certs.
fact: The odds of someone buying a Steiner jersey and intentionally removing the hologram and certs are extremely slim.



While I agree with three of the four of your facts, has someone other than Steiner confirmed the second? Regardless of that fact, if there is a single real jersey on the market without Steiner certs, either from them being destroyed or stolen, one of your facts is invalid and for you to claim that every single Yankee's jersey on the market that doesn't bear a cert is fake reminds me of an anecdote about some singing ice cream. ;)




If these facts seem "arbitrary" or insignificant to some, then I'd love to know what they'd consider to be some genuine warning flags.

While I agree that facts are paramount, I think think that highly unlikely scenarios don't do much to help validate a "highly unlikely" jersey (which is all I ever referred to it as). At a minimum, we may just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Rudy.

Iím not even sure we have to agree to disagree, but please understand I was more talking about the legality of the matter and more specifically what recourse Steiner would have if a jersey is being sold without their certs. I think it is very important for buyers to know their rights and to know if they are allowed to purchase a jersey that doesn't bear a Steiner cert; regardless if Steiner would have you think otherwise. I also think it is very important for a buyer to research the authenticity extensively before they make any sort of purchase; be it from eBay, any of the auction houses, or even Steiner.


Frank

Frank
02-22-2006, 02:08 AM
Frank on behalf of the other members, no one claimed it was fake or not real, that was you. Not anyone else. Frank you made a good point about getting facts straight. Please try to read posts thoroughly!!!

I could be missing it, but where did I claim it was real? Or fake?

suave1477
02-22-2006, 09:43 AM
frank let it go, you made a mistake and we will all forgive you

CollectGU
02-22-2006, 10:34 AM
First, the fact that the Yankees and Steiner are not going after auction houses that are now selling these jerseys speaks volumes about the legality issue.. Do not be so naive as to think that the players on the Yankees cannot/will not give away any of their jerseys to family friends, or agents because of an exclusive yankee/steiner relationship. Of course, Steiner is going to tell you that they have all the Matsui, Jeter, Arod, etc., jerseys because they want you to buy from them! That being said, I would be more comfortable buying game worn from Steiner, but that doesn't mean that ALL game used yankees jerseys that aren't from Steiner are fake....

suave1477
02-22-2006, 11:04 AM
Collectgu they are not saying they are fake, all they are saying is it seems strange, But to give you some advice on something your are actuall very wrong. The players do not own the jerseys, they are property of the Yankees. So they do not or shall I say are not supposed to give them out to anyone. If they did they would not only be in violation of Steiner but they would be in Violation of the Yankees, since the jerseys are not there property to give away. You mentioned Matsui that is actually very interesting - bcuz I just recently found out Matsui purchases all his own bats personally and keeps everyone of them. He himself may give those out to who he pleases but he doesn't give out many. If you find a Game Used Matsui bat on the market GRAB IT!!!!

Frank
02-22-2006, 11:14 AM
frank let it go, you made a mistake and we will all forgive you

Show me the post that I claimed it was real or fake and I'll ask for forgiveness. ;)

suave1477
02-22-2006, 11:17 AM
Frank, OH MY GOD!!!!! The point you obviously didn't get was that you didn't make that statement just as no one else did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Frank
02-22-2006, 11:18 AM
Collectgu they are not saying they are fake, all they are saying is it seems strange, But to give you some advice on something your are actuall very wrong. The players do not own the jerseys, they are property of the Yankees. So they do not or shall I say are not supposed to give them out to anyone. If they did they would not only be in violation of Steiner but they would be in Violation of the Yankees, since the jerseys are not there property to give away. You mentioned Matsui that is actually very interesting - bcuz I just recently found out Matsui purchases all his own bats personally and keeps everyone of them. He himself may give those out to who he pleases but he doesn't give out many. If you find a Game Used Matsui bat on the market GRAB IT!!!!

You are correct that the Yankees do own the jerseys, but please don't be too naive to think that they don't give away jerseys because of the Steiner agreement. I'm sure if most players were honest, they couldnít care less if Steiner makes a ton of money on their jersey. If they want to give one away, they are going to give one away.

Frank
02-22-2006, 11:20 AM
Frank, OH MY GOD!!!!! The point you obviously didn't get was that you didn't make that statement just as no one else did!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The ;) didn't give away the fact I was joking? :rolleyes:

suave1477
02-22-2006, 11:21 AM
Frank please read my previous statement thoroughly. As I said they are not supposed too. I didn't they are all angels. Frank when making comments make sure you understand what you are reading before commenting I notice this is becoming the norm for you.

Frank
02-22-2006, 11:28 AM
Frank please read my previous statement thoroughly. As I said they are not supposed too. I didn't they are all angels. Frank when making comments make sure you understand what you are reading before commenting I notice this is becoming the norm for you.

But if I did, you would loose you job as forum police! :eek: ;)

This is an online forum on the internet. Relax and have a good time. :cool:

suave1477
02-22-2006, 11:30 AM
Frank, that is my point!!! You don't read anything thoroughly and then make comments that are not true. So where is the fun for us when he read your comments!!! It would just make people not take you serious in this hobby bcuz you dont pay attention.

trsent
02-22-2006, 11:31 AM
Relax - Frankie Goes to Hollywood


Oh oh
Wee-ell-Now!
Relax don't do it
When you want to go to it
Relax don't do it
When you want to come
Relax don't do it
When you want to come
When you want to come
Relax don't do it
When you want to go to it
Relax don't do it
When you want to come
Relax don't do it
When you want to suck to it
Relax don't do it
When you want to come
Come-oh oh oh
But shoot it in the right direction
Make making it your intention-ooh yeah
Live those dreams
Scheme those schemes
Got to hit me
Hit me
Hit me with those laser beams
I'm coming
I'm coming-yeah
Relax don't do it
When you want to go to it
Relax don't do it
When you want to come
Relax don't do it
When you want to suck to it
Relax don't do it (love)
When you want to come
When you want to come
When you want to come
Come-huh
Get it up
The scene of love
Oh feel it
Relax Relax Relax
Higher higher Relax Hey-
Pray

suave1477
02-22-2006, 11:32 AM
trsent LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:D