Ami Larry Wilson Jersey

[hblakewolf]

Current offering in the American Memorabila auction:

1970-71 Larry Wilson St. Louis Card's football jersey, Lot #15

http://www.americanmemorabilia.com/Auction_Item.asp?Auction_ID=40596

Based on other Card's jerseys from 1970/71 I've seen, I question the following:

COLOR-Should be a deeper "Cardinal", not red.

NAME ON BACK: Should be on a plate, not screened directly on back

#'s: Should be single color white, not 2-tone.

FABRIC: Should be solid material, not mesh (see size tag for mesh close-up).

I'd appreciate the thoughts/insight from those advanced football collectors on this site.

Thanks.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[hblakewolf]

a 1971 photo of Wilson from Getty Images-note the single color white #:

9125

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[hblakewolf]

1972 Topps football card-note, single white 8.

9126

howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[otismalibu]

Spartacus !!!

[lund6771]

a very knowledgable Cardinal collector told me that the Cards wore Wilson in this era...never Champion

[Eric]

Has someone attempted to contact American Memorabilia about these issues?

[hblakewolf]

Eric-
Email sent to the owner, Vic, however, no repsonse received.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[RKGIBSON]

Here are a couple typical St. Louis Cardinal tags, one from 68 and one from 70.

I did speak to Victor today. He said this jersey came out of St. Louis from a long time game used dealer.

Roger

[hblakewolf]

Here are a couple typical St. Louis Cardinal tags, one from 68 and one from 70.

I did speak to Victor today. He said this jersey came out of St. Louis from a long time game used dealer.

Roger

Roger-
Regardless of Vic speaking with you, and letting you know the shirt was obtained form a "long time game used dealer", it does not change the facts as noted in my initial post. The shirt does not come close to any known examples from 1970/71.

When you speak with Vic again, can you ask him what was referenced in order to determine this is a genuine, game worn 1970/71 Wilson jersey?

Unless Vic or his 100% Authentic Team can produce the research/photos/evidence they used to support their findings that this is a game worn Larry Wilson jersey from 1970/71, I would suggest removiing this jersey from their current auction offerings.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[RKGIBSON]

Howard,

I did not say this changed any facts. I posted pictures of real tags from Cardinal jerseys. That is a fact.

As per forum rules, I did contact AMI. That is why I stated that I talked to him. He told me where it came from. That adds facts to this post.

I have owned many Cardinal jerseys. This jersey is not consistant with those, fact.

Roger

[John in KY]

I don't know about the manufacturer, but for just the 1970 season the Cardinals evidently did try black trim on the numbers. They evidently didn't like the look and went back to plain white (at least until their recent redesign).

The guy who postes by PANTONE on the Creamer logos board is in Phoenix; he is a Cardinal fanatic, and he is hooked in with all of the leagues for their official style guides including the PANTONE printing and textile colors. He is also hooked in with the Cardinals, since they are his hometown team. Here is a link to his post about the 1970 Cardinal jerseys:

http://boards.sportslogos.net/index.php?showtopic=55954

Here is a jersey on a card from 1970:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y207/SSURORG/NFL/Photos/StLouisCardinals_1970_FredHeron.jpg

This PANTONE usually is sitting on all the uniform and logo changes, and he has all the style guides for the NFL starting in the mid-80s.

[jdr3]

Here are a couple of pictures from 1970 showing what appears to be a champion jersery.

[genius]

I've almost certain I've seen footage of the Cardinals wearing this jersey, not sure where though. Looks like the Wilson in question is in the background of that jersey card photo. My question would be, if it's not a gamer, what is it? Why would Champion make a Cardinals jersey with "Wilson" screened on, unless they made authentic replicas at that time?

[RKGIBSON]

Nice work guys, I have never seen those.

Victors says " Lou likes it a lot". Looks like Lou knows what he is talking about here.

Roger

[hblakewolf]

Here are a couple of pictures from 1970 showing what appears to be a champion jersery.

What leads you to believe this is a Champion jersey? If it is, then why is the number 8 a completely different style font than that on the jersey offerd by AMI?

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[XPFO]

Howard is correct...even if you look at the football card below, you will see the "8" in the background and it is nowhere close to being the same font, and this is the image where the black is outlining the number. Nothing here seems to match at all....sorry no dice!!

[genius]

If it's not legit, what is it? I guess it could be:

1) a vintage authentic replica (were they even made back then?)
2) an old red Champion jersey that someone took the time to screen #8 on with "Wilson" on the back (a homemade jersey in other words)
3) a flat-out fake with intention to deceive
4) a modern throwback with an old Champion tag sewn on.
5) a coincidence, someone found an old red jersey of another team that had a #8 named Wilson.

These all seem far fetched to me. I've got no stake in this but I'm just wondering what else this is, if not a Cardinal gamer. Thanks!

[CollectGU]

Howard is correct...even if you look at the football card below, you will see the "8" in the background and it is nowhere close to being the same font, and this is the image where the black is outlining the number. Nothing here seems to match at all....sorry no dice!!


The font on the "8" in the background of the football card seems to match the font on the sleeve of the offered jersey. The material of the jersey also looks similiar, it's a good start.....

Regards,
Dave

[lund6771]

Roger..

Did Victor offer any other information other than "Lou likes it?"...perhaps WHY he likes it?...or does he have pictures with a specific match?...or has he seen another players jersey from this year, from the Cards, that is a perefct style match?

The story "Lou like it a lot" is #2 in the Auction House Excuse Handbook...right behind "it comes from an impecable source"

It's all b.s.

[hblakewolf]

Roger..

Did Victor offer any other information other than "Lou likes it?"...perhaps WHY he likes it?...or does he have pictures with a specific match?...or has he seen another players jersey from this year, from the Cards, that is a perefct style match?

The story "Lou like it a lot" is #2 in the Auction House Excuse Handbook...right behind "it comes from an impecable source"

It's all b.s.

Lund6771:

Take a look at the other items on the following thread that Lou also must have "liked a lot", as he wrote LOA's:
http://www.gameuseduniverse.net/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5362&highlight=lampson+ripken

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[jdr3]

What leads you to believe this is a Champion jersey? If it is, then why is the number 8 a completely different style font than that on the jersey offerd by AMI?

The fonts on all the numerals are the same as Champion used, and still uses on some college & high school jerseys.

[CollectGU]

Lund6771:

Take a look at the other items on the following thread that Lou also must have "liked a lot", as he wrote LOA's:
http://www.gameuseduniverse.net/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=5362&highlight=lampson+ripken

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net


Howard,

Please don't change or flip the topic in this thread as it is against the forum rules. We are discusssing the Wilson cardinals jersey in this thread....

Thanks,
Dave

[hblakewolf]

Howard,

Please don't change or flip the topic in this thread as it is against the forum rules. We are discusssing the Wilson cardinals jersey in this thread....

Thanks,
Dave


Dave-

The jersey in question has issues that need to be addressed by AMI. I sent an email to Vic, which as usual, was not answered.

Another forum reader indicated he spoke with Vic about this jersey, and was told, "Victors says " Lou likes it a lot". Looks like Lou knows what he is talking about here."

Based on prior equipment in AMI's auctions having Lampson's "blessing" with his 100% Authentic LOA, my post confirms that major mistakes have been made in the past by Lampson, and also by Vic for not removing the items once notified. T

You indicated previously that you speak with Vic. If it's possible for him to forward Lampson's work sheet or supporting informaiton on how this shirt was determined to be Wilson's from 1971, it will allow us to possibly make an informed decision. Until then, Lampson's history with his LOA's speaks volumes, and my post confirms that this may possibly be yet another mistake.

Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[G1X]

I have no comment about this particular jersey, but I would like to clarify a few matters to be sure that everyone has an understanding of what they should be looking for in an early 1970s St. Louis Cardinals jersey.
1. As has been shown in this thread, the Cardinals at one point did indeed wear red jerseys that had white numbers trimmed in black. I did some extensive research on this issue over the past few days and am convinced that this style was worn in 1970. I cannot confirm if these were worn after that season.
2. The Cardinals appear to have worn Champion jerseys at some point during that era based on the number and lettering font seen on several photos posted in this thread and other photos I observed from that era. (The unique Champion font of the 1970s-to-1990s era is recognizable to those who collect older NFL jerseys).
3. The Cardinals wore mesh jerseys as early as 1970 based on photo observation. A good example can be seen in the Cardinals section of the 1971 NFL Street & Smith Annual (page 52, if I remember correctly).
4. Some teams such as the Bears put lettering straight on the back of jerseys circa 1970. Champion was still doing this as late as 1975 on some of its professional jerseys (WFL Memphis Southmen, for example).

Hope this is helpful in clearing up some of the questions about early 1970s Cardinals jerseys.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[genius]

"Wilson" font looks similar to the Bills jerseys of the early 70s, which were made by Champion if I'm not mistaken.

[G1X]

Genius,

Yes, you are correct about the letter font (the Jets are another example from that era). Note the photo in a previous post where Wilson is being tackled by #59-Colman of the New Orleans Saints. It is from a game played on October 11, 1970. You can see the "O" and the "N", and it appears to be the typical Champion lettering font of that era.

Mark Hayne
Gridiron Exchange
gixc@verizon.net

[RKGIBSON]

G1X, genuis & jdr3,

I appreciate the information and your efforts to find it. As I stated before, I had never noticed the outlined font.

I do want to say a couple of things here about this jersey and dealing with AMI. I have done a lot of business with Beans then Victor at AMI since they started. I have found that the best way to get a answer on anything is to pick up the phone and call, any company not just AMI. Email is a easy way out to say, I got no response. You are not going to get a response if you are not a registered bidder. I wonder how many of the negative posters here are registered bidders and were actually interested in this Wilson jersey? I called because I had questions on the Wilson as well as about 10 other items. I talk very frankly with Victor on items and recieve the same back. I usually know who the consignor is and the history as they know it. On this jersey I ask those two things and recieved answers. The fact that I had never seen this type font was the main topic. Lou says they did use it breifly, is the answer I got and he appears, basically, to be right this time. Anyone that thinks Lou knows nothing is very uninformed. He does need to limit what he writes letters on to his expertise. I do not buy anything based on any companies LOA, period. I believe these companies, or people, are one of the main problems with this hobby today as they write letters on things without proper research or knowledge. That aside, there is no compelling evidence that this jersey is not real. I am not convinced it is real either. At this point I will not bid as I am not comfortable owning it. Someone may be. I do not understand why anyone would think, any auction company should not sell a item like this if it cannot absolutely be proved a fraud. A Larry Wilson jersey with rock solid provenace would be worth 6K to 8K to me. I do not want one like this, but I'm sure someone will take a chance on it and be happy with it for something less.

I know I have left myself open here to be jumped on by everyone who dislikes Lou or AMI, I do not like everything they do either. I get tired of people that act like they have tried to get answers when they really do not. Pick up the phone. Now let me have it.

Roger

[mvandor]

Now let me have it.
I will tell you I strongly disagree that you should have to go "Flintstone" and pick up a phone to get an answer from any business in this day and age. E-mail has become as accepted a part of today's business world as faxes. If AMI or any auction house fails to respond in a timely manner to inquiries from prospective bidders, then they are NOT representing their client, the consignor, professionally IMHO. If I were to consign something to them, I would be quite upset to find that they weren't properly nurturing every prospective bid opportunity.

As for Sweet Lou, no rebuttal necessary. The old "even a blind squirrel finds an acorn occassionally" addage comes to mind. ;)

[RKGIBSON]

Mvandor,
The key word in your post is "client". If you are not a registered bidder they are not going to waste time with you. What company does?

Roger

[hblakewolf]

Mvandor,
The key word in your post is "client". If you are not a registered bidder they are not going to waste time with you. What company does?

Roger
Roger-

Before registering, many prospective bidders desire specific answers to their questions, first. If the provided answer is acceptable and a comfort level is met, then the next step of registering often takes place.

Based on your post, would a Ford car salesman turn away an individual who pulls into the lot in a Honda, and explains he's never owned a Ford in the past? Once the Honda owner feels comfortable, and his questions are answered, there is a great chance a sale may take place. When I visited the Apple computer store over the weekend and informed the sales person that I've never used their brand of computer, do you think they turned their back to me and walked away?

I seriously doubt any successful business that depends on new customers has the mindset of "this possible new user/customer is just a complete waste of time"

If what you note is true, it’s hard to believe this “business model” could be found in any Wharton text books or practiced by any of the other major auction houses.


Howard Wolf
hblakewolf@patmedia.net

[RKGIBSON]

Howard,

When you go to the Honda store a hundred times and just look, eventually you'll get ignored. I been in the car business all my life.

The fact of the matter is, by now they know who is wasting their time. I am never ignored because I am a proven customer, as many others on this forum are too. I have had a couple of problems with things I bought, it was always made right, because I am a proven customer. I can only speak of my experiences with AMI. I think ther bring a lot of good stuff to market.

What I am saying here is, I have no problems getting answers to my questions, because I am a customer. I am not just trying to bust their footballs. How many answers do you get from Grey Flannel? Same deal.

Best Regard
Roger

[CollectGU]

It obvious to readers that the thread was started to break balls under the guise of gathering infomation on the jersey as it was originally believed to be an easy target item. When there was some unexpected result. i.e. information that actually supported the authenticity of the jersey the thread was quickly shifted to "well look at all the other Lampson mistakes" instead of thanking those that were able to truly provide valuable info. on the jersey. That is when it became obvious to me that Howard was less interested in the amazing research done by some of the forum members and more intersted in breaking balls. As usual, somehow I will inevitably be called an AMI shill for making this post......

Regards,
Dave

[genius]

For me it's not about AMI, Mr. Lampson, Mr. Victor, or anyone/anything else. Only about the jersey, period. Just thought it was a cool one and it looks legit from my amateur collector point of view. One thing I like about vintage jerseys is that they are not "competing" against replicas that are so accurate you can't tell the difference. That's why I asked, if it's not a game worn or at least an actual team jersey, what else could it be? If I were from St. Louis I would want this one. Thanks!